How To Be Okay No Matter What | Kamala Masters

Summary

Episode Summary: “How To Be Okay No Matter What | Kamala Masters”

10% Happier with Dan Harris features Kamala Masters in this insightful episode titled "How To Be Okay No Matter What." Released on December 23, 2024, the conversation delves deep into the realms of equanimity, mindfulness, and the practical applications of Buddhist teachings in everyday life. Hosted by Dan Harris, a veteran journalist and best-selling author, this episode provides listeners with profound insights and actionable strategies to cultivate a balanced and resilient mind.

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Introduction to Kamala Masters

Kamala Masters is a revered meditation teacher with decades of experience. She has been practicing since the 1970s, initially under Anagarika Munindra and later with the Burmese master Sayada Upandita, whom she twice temporarily ordained as a Buddhist nun. Currently, she trains with Sayada Utejaniya and serves as a guiding teacher at the Insight Meditation Society. Additionally, Kamala co-founded the Hasana Metta Foundation, which developed the Maui Dharma Sanctuary.

Key Points:

• Background: Extensive meditation practice since the 1970s.
• Teaching Roles: Guiding teacher at Insight Meditation Society; co-founder of Maui Dharma Sanctuary.
• Personal Journey: Raised three children on her own in her 20s, which led her to deepen her Dharma practice.

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Understanding Equanimity

The core of the episode revolves around understanding and cultivating equanimity—a balanced and non-reactive mental state.

Kamala’s Definition:

“Equanimity is a spacious mind that can include everything but not be reactive to anything.” (08:45)

Components of Equanimity:

1. Spaciousness: Allowing experiences to arise and pass without clinging or aversion.
2. Balance: Responding to situations with mindfulness rather than reacting impulsively.
3. Wisdom and Compassion: Equanimity creates space for compassionate and wise responses.

Common Misconceptions:

• Doormat Syndrome: Equanimity is often mistaken for passivity or complacency. Kamala clarifies that equanimity does not mean inaction but rather responding thoughtfully and compassionately.

Far and Near Enemies of Equanimity:

• Far Enemies: Attachment and aversion—emotions that disrupt balance.
• Near Enemies: Passivity and delusion—masked as indifference but actually hinder true equanimity.

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Practical Applications and Personal Stories

Kamala shares personal anecdotes to illustrate the application of equanimity in real-life scenarios.

Confronting Aggression: Kamala recounts an incident where she intervened when witnessing two young boys physically fighting. Despite her initial calm demeanor, she felt compelled to act forcefully to prevent harm.

“I was yelling with all my might, get an officer, get somebody, get security, get over here.” (20:15)

Raising Children Amidst Dharma Practice: Balancing motherhood and meditation, Kamala discusses how she integrated mindfulness into daily chores, turning mundane activities into meditation practices.

“Walking through the hallways, opening doors, washing dishes helped me...five ensuring continuity in my practice.” (63:16)

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Cultivating Equanimity: Techniques and Practices

Kamala provides listeners with actionable strategies to develop equanimity.

1. Setting Intentions:

   • Morning Affirmations: Starting the day with intentions such as “May I be clear, beneficial, and useful.” (27:28)
   • Self-Reminders: Phrases like “Stay stable, stay spacious, stay clear” during challenging moments.

2. Metta (Loving Kindness) Practice:

   • Gradual Approach: Begin with sending Metta to oneself, then extend it to benefactors, neutral persons, and finally difficult individuals.
   • Surrounding with Benefactors: Visualizing supportive figures around a difficult person to cultivate genuine compassion.

3. Equanimity Phrases:

   • Wisdom-Oriented Statements: Phrases like “Birth and death are part of life” and “May I open to this situation with balance.” (53:14)
   • Understanding Karma: Recognizing the interplay of intention and impact in actions to foster a balanced response.

4. Handling Intense Emotions:

   • Preparation: Setting clear intentions before engaging in potentially stressful interactions.
   • Forgiveness: Accepting human imperfection and forgiving oneself when reactions are not ideal.

Notable Quote:

“Intention is powerful. Imagine if we didn't have those intentions. The intention to know our own minds, what it does, the intention to be kind. It would just go willy nilly all over the place.” (31:20)

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Karma: Intention vs. Impact

Kamala elucidates the nuanced relationship between intention and impact in the context of karma.

Understanding Karma:

• Intention as Karma: Actions rooted in intention generate karmic effects.

“The Buddha said karma is intention and it's powerful.” (31:20)

• Impact Consideration: While intentions matter, the actual impact of actions on others is equally important.

“It's not an either or—both matter.” (37:47)

Practical Implications:

• Acknowledging Mistakes: Apologizing sincerely when intentions do not align with the impact.
• Continuous Learning: Embracing the reality of human imperfection and striving for better understanding and responses.

Notable Quote:

“Equanimity is very closely related to wisdom, to knowing, basically knowing what's beneficial, what leads to the end of suffering.” (59:55)

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Balancing Equanimity and Compassion

Kamala emphasizes that equanimity complements other Brahma Viharas—compassion, sympathetic joy, and loving kindness—creating a well-rounded and resilient mind.

Integration with Metta:

• Combined Practice: Offering Metta with an understanding of equanimity enhances the effectiveness of compassionate actions.

“Doing the best I can. And things are just as they are right now.” (60:47)

Empowering Oneself:

• Responsibility for Inner State: Focusing on regulating one’s own mind rather than attempting to control external circumstances.

“You can't take responsibility for everything that happens with somebody else, but you can take responsibility for your own mind.” (60:48)

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Practical Equanimity Practices

Kamala concludes with formal meditation instructions to cultivate equanimity.

1. Daily Equanimity Practice:

   • Phrase-Based Meditation: Using specific phrases that align with understanding and acceptance, such as “May I open to this situation with balance.”

2. Progressive Metta and Equanimity:

   • Sequential Approach: Starting with Metta to develop a heart of loving kindness before transitioning to equanimity practices.

3. Equanimity in Daily Life:

   • Mindful Chores: Transforming daily activities like washing dishes or walking to foster continuous mindfulness and equanimity.

Notable Quote:

“Equanimity is not passive. It can be responsive, but it knows when. Has wisdom said that?” (59:55)

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Key Takeaways

• Equanimity Defined: A balanced, spacious mind that acknowledges experiences without reactive attachment or aversion.
• Practical Application: Incorporates setting intentions, Metta practice, and mindful responses to cultivate resilience.
• Intention and Impact: Both elements are crucial in understanding and practicing karma, requiring a nuanced approach.
• Balancing Emotions: Equanimity enhances the ability to handle intense emotions with wisdom and compassion.
• Accessible Practice: Even amidst busy lives, integrating mindfulness into daily activities fosters continuous practice.

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Conclusion

This episode of 10% Happier with Dan Harris offers a profound exploration of equanimity through Kamala Masters' extensive experience and personal stories. The discussion bridges ancient Buddhist wisdom with modern practical applications, providing listeners with valuable tools to cultivate a balanced and resilient mind. Whether dealing with personal challenges or interactions with others, the insights shared empower individuals to navigate life's complexities with grace and mindfulness.

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps

1. On Equanimity:

   “Equanimity is a spacious mind that can include everything but not be reactive to anything.” - Kamala Masters (08:45)

2. On Intentions:

   “Intention is powerful. Imagine if we didn't have those intentions...” - Kamala Masters (31:20)

3. On Equanimity and Wisdom:

   “Equanimity is very closely related to wisdom, to knowing, basically knowing what's beneficial...” - Kamala Masters (59:55)

4. On Responsibility for Inner State:

   “You can't take responsibility for everything that happens with somebody else, but you can take responsibility for your own mind.” - Kamala Masters (60:48)

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Resources Mentioned

• Dhamma Awareness: Vipassana Metta on Maui
• Metta and Equanimity Online: Dharma Seed
• Maui Dharma Sanctuary: Available through the Hasana Metta Foundation website.

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This summary encapsulates the essence of the episode, providing a comprehensive overview for listeners seeking to enhance their understanding of equanimity and its role in fostering a balanced and mindful life.

Transcript

[Dan Harris]

Wondery subscribers can listen to 10% Happier.

[Kamala Masters]

Early and ad free right now.

[Dan Harris]

Join Wondery plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. This is the 10% Happier podcast. I'm Dan Harris. Hello everybody. How we doing? We're gonna go back to one of my favorite subjects today. This is a question that I have.

[Kamala Masters]

Spent a lot of time mulling and.

[Dan Harris]

That people ask me about all the time. Can you get happier, more balanced, more equanimous without losing your edge? Will getting happier make you complacent or make you a doormat? I remember how when I first got interested in meditation as an ambitious network.

[Kamala Masters]

Newsman, I told my dad about my.

[Dan Harris]

Burgeoning interest and he was a hard charging academic physician at the time and he told me that he had some colleagues who had gotten into Buddhism and it made them, and these were his words, like totally ineffective.

[Kamala Masters]

You may have heard my spiel about.

[Dan Harris]

How this is a misunderstanding, a misapplication of the lessons of meditation. The goal is not to be resigned, but instead to be more focused and more emotionally agile, to surf your emotions rather than drowning in them. In other words, to learn how to respond wisely to life instead of reacting blindly. In any event, I will spare you my rant on this because you're about to hear it from somebody with vastly more experience than I have. Full disclosure When I first encountered Kamala masters back in 2010 on my first ever meditation retreat, she was the victim of my unfortunate penchant for judgmentalism. I initially dismissed her a little bit because her presentation I thought was sort of typically touchy feely meditation teachery or whatever. But this was just me being dumb. The more I heard her speak, the more I realized both the depth of her practice and also the steeliness underneath. Kamala Masters has been meditating since the 1970s, first with Anagarika Munindra, who was Joseph Goldstein's first teacher, and then with the Burmese master Sayada Upandita, with whom she twice temporarily ordained as a Buddhist nun. More recently, she's been training with another Burmese master. We've talked about here on the show a bunch. His name is Sayada Utejaniya. Kamala is a guiding teacher at the Insight Meditation Society and the co founder of the Hasana Metta foundation, which developed the Maui Dharma Sanctuary. In this conversation we talk about what equanimity actually is and whether it's accessible to mere mortals, how we develop it, the most common misconceptions about equanimity, the near and far enemies of equanimity the power and limitations of setting intentions what Kamala means by the phrase Dharma duct tape what she means when she talks about karma. We also talk about metta, or loving kindness, practice and its relationship to equanimity. And we talk about her story of being driven to the Dharma because of the hell realm. And that's her phrase of raising three children on her own in her 20s and then learning to practice at home during everyday life while raising children Couple of quick notes before we dive in here. First, you're going to hear some background noise from Kamala's home on Maui, including.

[Kamala Masters]

Some birdsong, which I found pleasant.

[Dan Harris]

Second note is that we originally ran this episode in April of 2022. It was incredibly popular then, so we thought it might be worth sharing again while our team takes a little time off over the holidays. Heads up. We're planning a big January here on the podcast. We're launching a series called Do Life Better. We've identified the top resolutions that people tend to make fitness meaning diet, exercise and the like Personal finances, career success and work life balance and reducing your addictions to things like booze and your phone. We will do a week on each of these subjects with our typical blend of modern science and ancient wisdom. And alongside the programming here on the pod, we'll be running a free meditation challenge [e-mail] in many ways, meditation is the foundational habit. Mindfulness or self awareness can fuel the whole process of behavior change. The Challenge runs for seven days. It starts on Monday, January 6, and every day you'll get a guided meditation directly in your inbox from some of your favorite meditation teachers, including Sharon Salzberg, Sabane Selassie and Jeff Warren. And then I'll be doing some live check ins in the evenings where you can log in and ask me anything. The first of those will be free, but but the remainder will be for paid subscribers. But again, the challenge itself is free. All you have to do is subscribe. [e-mail] if you're already a subscriber, there's nothing more you need to do here. The emails will arrive automatically. We'll get started with Kamala Masters right after this. But first, before we get started, I want to let you know about what we're planning for the first few weeks of 2025. We've got a big series called Do Life Better. It kicks off in January to get your year off to the best start possible. On New Year's Day, we have a very special episode with the Dharma teacher Vinnie Ferraro the last episode we did with him, which was actually the first time he was ever on this show. I got more comments for that episode than anything I've ever done on the show.

[Kamala Masters]

So we thought bringing it back for the first day of the year would be a good move.

[Dan Harris]

And then we're going to follow up with a huge month long pod series where we combine world class scientists with Dharma teachers to help you actually do your resolutions. Meanwhile, over on DanHarris.com, we're offering a ton of resources and support including a free seven day New Year's challenge. I will do live check ins where you can ask me anything. We also have subscriber chats about the most common resolutions like diet, fitness and personal finance, dry January, stress reduction and breaking up with your phone. Plus exclusive access to transcripts of our podcast and much more. To join, all you have to do is [e-mail] just go to danharris.com, type in your email, click Subscribed and then I'll take care of everything else.

[Kamala Masters]

My son, who's 9, loves Pokemon.

[Dan Harris]

Loves it. If you want to win that dude over, get him some Pokemon cards.

[Kamala Masters]

In fact, some friends of mine have done that in the past and he still remembers it. My son does. He still remembers when people give him that gift.

[Dan Harris]

So imagine my surprise and delight when.

[Kamala Masters]

I received in the mail a huge box filled with Pokemon trading cards, which I then of course gave to my son. It was one of those rare moments where he thought I was cool.

[Dan Harris]

Why did I receive said box? Because they're sponsoring the show. Specifically the Pokemon trading card game is.

[Kamala Masters]

What I want to tell you about.

[Dan Harris]

It's a gift sure to delight gamers, collectors and Pokemon fans. Each Pokemon set has dozens of new cards in different styles by different artists, ranging from cute to stunning. You can learn to play in minutes. Enjoy the TCG and new cards for years to come. Find gift ideas for all ages and at every price [e-mail] holiday hey prime members, have you heard you can listen to your favorite podcasts ad free. Good news With Amazon Music you can have access to the largest catalog of ad free Top podcasts included with your prime membership.

[Kamala Masters]

We are regular consumers around my house of Amazon Music. Often we're listening through our Alexa. My son has a very intimate relationship with his Alexa who he talks to all the time. He learns about amazing new music through Alexa and then shares it with his parents. To start listening to either music or.

[Dan Harris]

Podcasts, download the Amazon Music app for free or go to Amazon.com/freepodcasts. That's Amazon.com@freepodcasts to catch up on the latest episodes without the ads.

[Kamala Masters]

Kamala Masters, welcome to the show.

Thank you for having me.

Pleasure. I can hear the Hawaii wildlife behind you as we speak.

Right. We're lucky to have that along with. Once in a while, you'll hear the helicopters with tourists and we welcome them, too.

You were one of the teachers on the first meditation retreat I ever went on, which was a rocky ride for me.

Oh, wow. I didn't know. Was your first one. Right? Yeah. You've probably done a lot more since then and a lot of practicing, I bet.

At least I've tried to. But anyway, it's nice to see you again and thank you very much for doing this. Really appreciate it.

Of course.

So we're going to talk about equanimity, and I thought I would ask you an almost embarrassingly basic question, which is what is equanimity?

All right. Well, I'm hearkening back to when I was walking in the room to get an interview with Seyda Upandita, and he asked me the same question. So I'm going to answer that as if I'm there in that room again. And my answer was that equanimity is a spacious mind that can include everything but not be reactive to anything. And when there is reactivity, it comes in two ways. When there is an experience arising and there is reactivity to it, whether it's an inner or outer experience, the reactivity would be in two categories. One would be there would be aversion to it or any manifestation of aversion. Or there would be attachment to what's going on inwardly or outwardly, and many versions of attachment also. So equanimity would be a balance in response to what's happening to our inner or outer experience. And that balance would be without reactivity, without attachment, or without aversion. So that's kind of, in a way, it sounds so theoretical, but that's actually what one experiences. So, for example, helicopters that come and go around our sanctuary here, I can see in my heart, mind something coming up in response to the sound, the outer sound. And it usually is aversion. It's a lot less now because used to being mindful of it, but there's room for that aversion in the mind. And then what happens is that mindfulness comes to the foreground and is aware of that aversion. So in a way, that aversion is allowed to come and go within this field of equanimity. So that's why equanimity really includes the understanding that it's spacious. You know, there's a lot of room for things to arise and pass away with no reactivity to it. Or if there is reactivity, mindfulness can see it and it's not a problem. It just comes and goes. Is that too theoretical?

It's a great place to start. I'll ask hopefully not too obnoxious, very practical questions at some point. But I do want to say something about the Buddha. Okay. You pointed this out to our producer dj, before this interview, when you were chatting with dj, you pointed out that the Buddha set the bar pretty high here. He said that a quantum is mind would be like the sky. You know, clouds can pass through, airplanes, anything can pass through. And there's. The sky's not freaking out about it. So that's a. As I said, that's a pretty high bar.

That is a pretty high bar. What's so high about it and beautiful about it is that it leaves room for wisdom and compassion to arise when the mind isn't dealing with the reactivity part. When it can see things like unwholesome states of mind arise and know that they'll pass away, it leaves room for wise response. Or compassion would be a wise response. It leaves room for that to arise. Actually, the Buddha did not give that exact quote, but someone described the Buddha's teaching on equanimity to be that way. Actually, the Buddha said it's like the sky, but the rest of it, like anything can arise. And that part, I think it was Chan Sumedo that made that precise description.

Is this sky like mind available to mortals? People who don't live in a meditation sanctuary and don't do, you know, decades and decades worth of silent retreat.

Yes, I do see it with yogis that I know of from, you know, they're even people who are even more just beginner yogis, that when they have something like a natural sense of what we call sila, or their morality, or their sense of not harming is very high and natural. There are more times when the mind can just see things as they really are and not react with an unwholesome mind state. But I have to say that there could be a response to what's going on. So response very different from reactivity. Response would include being able to discern what to say in the moment, what to do in the moment that would be effective, but not necessarily harming. So it's possible of Course, if you know your mind, when you practice mindfulness, that's the key for us meditators, to know our minds, to know when unwholesome states arise. And when they do arise, can we refrain from acting them out? That's a lifetime of practice. It could be. And more.

So would I. It would be fair to conclude then that if I'm interested in having more equanimity, which I think most everybody probably is, there are at least two ways to practice or to train this skill. One would be to try to be more mindful, which meditation can help with, and to have more what you called sila, or just sort of not being a jerk in your life. And these are two tracks that can lead to the same quality of mind.

That's right. Yeah. You're laying it out very well. Because when we're mindful, then we can notice what's going on in the mind. And what the Buddha talked about a lot was a big part of our practice is to refrain from doing anything that's harmful to others and harmful to our own karmic stream too, and then also to nurture those qualities of mind that are causing harmony and goodwill in the world. So there were many ways that the Buddha said that to refrain from harming and to practice non harming. Those two are the basis for sila, for beneficial action and words in the world, and for our own karmic streams. So when we have mindfulness, like you pointed out, mindfulness, knowing more what's going on in our own minds, and then knowing if it's going to be harmful to refrain, if it's going to be beneficial to nurture that. So sila is the next part, and then also to recognize when the mind can be equanimous. Some people, of course, a lot of people, I think, have a wrong understanding about equanimity. It's as if we just kind of let ourselves be a doormat and just whatever happens, we're not going to respond. But that isn't true, because with equanimity, there is more space for that discerning mind to come up. Like, what would really be helpful? And maybe it would be helpful to just be quiet now. And maybe it would be helpful to take a stand on something and really speak with a loud voice about something, but not causing harm. So then we take action. So the third part of that equanimity is to take action also in ways that would be either wise and. Or compassionate. I think you got it in the beginning. Yeah.

I'm always looking for the Gold star. You said a lot of things I want to follow up on, including at some point, I want to get you to sort of define what you mean by karmic stream. But let me stay with this notion that doesn't make you a doormat. And you're learning how to respond wisely instead of reacting blindly. And I'd like to kind of dwell in this zone for a little while because I think people will hear you talking about non harming, being kind, being compassionate, and nonetheless worry that, well, does all of this add up to weakness or passivity?

Right, I get that. And that is what many people think. No, it doesn't mean that we're just quiet. It doesn't mean that we don't take any action. Sometimes the action is really strong and sometimes it can shock people, but maybe shock them into kind of letting go of their own harmful activity. But I'm trying to think about giving an example. One time I was teaching a retreat and one of the helpers in the retreat is a Buddhist nun and we were going to buy gifts for our staff of the retreat. So we went to the local shopping center here on Maui. And we walked into the entrance, it's an open place. And as soon as we walked in, I saw to my left, which was maybe about 100 steps away, a person approaching quickly, another person, and pummeling that person, just beating that person on the head. And these were two young boys, and so I kind of knew them in the community. And so the one youngster was against the wall and started to kind of go down the wall and the other one was hitting on that youngster. And it seemed like one of them was kind of out of it. The one going down the wall was a little bit out of it. And the one hitting him was also quite agitated. Of course there was no words. One was just pummeling the other. I looked at my nun friend and everybody was just not doing anything. So I ran towards those two persons and I started yelling with all my might, get an officer, get somebody, get security, get over here. And I yelled at the other person, pummeling. And I said, stop it, stop it, get away. And I was telling the other person with all my might, get away. But I didn't want to go near. And so the other person jumped off, pummeling him, and I kind of ran for safety and that person ran away. So here I am just out of teaching a retreat in the shopping center. Something has to be done. People are walking by, not doing anything, and I'm the one that Shouts with all my mighty and then runs away for safety also. So I just want to give a graphic example of how we need to be sometimes. And I had taken this course in model mugging. I don't know if you know of that. Have you heard of that? Model mugging. It's a course that was given here in the islands where all of the people who taught, like, any kind of martial art was, or many of them were offering to youngsters in the community a way to know how to defend themselves. So I went to this model mugging course with my daughter. She was 14 at the time. So we both had to learn how to defend ourselves. And that was probably about two or three years before this incident that I just talked about. So I really learned how to shout at the top of my lungs, you know, to say, this is wrong. Not just don't hurt me, but don't hurt other people. So that really came in handy. So I'm a proponent of speaking loud, speaking up, standing up for one's rights, really saying what needs to be said. But maybe, you know, if we have time, we could think about it ahead of time and saying the right words at the right time. You know, all of those things that the Buddha taught, the five ways that we can do right speech. And sometimes it takes a loud voice. So I'm all for that.

You seem very calm, but when circumstances require it, you can be forceful.

I really can be. I mean, you know, watch out for Kamala, because, yeah, I can get really on it because I had to raise four children, and I had to speak my peace and do what I needed to do sometimes. But I really tried without hurting people. But sometimes I failed. And not with my hands, but with my words. Not with my actions, but with my words. Sometimes I would hurt people, but then, you know, then you have time for reflection, and, you know, maybe when those circumstances happen again, you're more careful. So I'm like Manindra says, my first teacher said, my path is not yet finished.

So I love that it's useful to hear you say that you retain the capacity to make mistakes, because I can imagine people might be listening to this. And, you know, you're talking about not being carried away by your anger or whatever emotion that arises in your mind. And immediately some of our minds might flash back on the last time we did get carried away, which might have been like, 15 minutes ago. So. So what kind of reassurance can you give us about the fact that we maybe that our paths are certainly not finished?

Well, yeah, we're Human. We're just human, and we're always learning. And I can see that in the beginning, for me, when I just started the Buddha's path, I didn't know my mind as well. So because I didn't know my mind as well, I would just lash out at something. I wasn't that bad. I was a pretty good person. But, you know, still those things happen. But as I came to practice more and really knew what was harmful and followed the Buddha's teachings about if you can see what's going on and you know it's going to be harmful, then see what you can do to refrain and then, you know, to nurture what's beneficial. Of course. So knowing the mind more as I practice more, then I knew how to take those steps. But when I didn't know the mind as much, then I'd flub up a lot. And I'm still flubbing up, but it's not as bad. So that's a reassurance I can give you. It's not as bad, but some people get really surprised. Especially, you know, I'm a person of color. I'm a cisgender woman, and I. I can get stepped on sometimes, you know, so I don't back down when I know I'm not going to get hurt. You know.

What guidelines would you have for us if we're thinking about how to be forceful without being harmful?

Well, because I know sometimes anger still arises in my mind when I am getting ready to have a talk with someone or even to be in a group of people. I try to prepare my own mind. I try to remember what my intentions are and state intentions before I go into a meeting. State them to myself. Like, may I use words that are clear, beneficial, and useful? I mean, that's what I always say at the beginning of a dharma talk. May I be clear, beneficial, and useful. And so I do that when I know I'm going to go into a meeting. And so I do always have that intention because I've had to prepare for that so many times. And then when I'm in the meeting, I might say something to myself, like when I'm hearing things and I feel reactive, which I do sometimes, of course, I'll state my intention to myself. Stay stable, stay spacious, stay clear. Something like that. Just so I give myself short reminders. And sometimes I don't have the wherewithal to do that because I'm triggered. That's the truth of how it is, you know? So at least I try to say something like, I may not be right. But this is my perception right now about this and I feel a bit hot headed so I apologize in advance if it comes out kind of, you know, too strong. So I really do try that to the best of my ability. So having some forethought about it and some intentions that we remind ourselves of can really, really help. And then if they all go kafloo y then I just forgive myself. I'm just human. I'm not perfect. I can't do it right. And I'm sorry if you're expecting me to be perfect because I am not. And I sometimes use four letter words that just really fires people up sometimes. But I grew up in tough communities, I had to learn that. But I am naturally kind of soft spoken. But don't let that fool you.

Coming up, Kamala explains the power and limitations of intentions, gives us a primer on karma, talks about the relationship between equanimity and metta, or loving kindness, and offers simple and practical equanimity phrases you can use in your everyday life right after this.

[Dan Harris]

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[Kamala Masters]

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[Dan Harris]

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[Kamala Masters]

Just to go back to what you said about intentions, I'll admit that setting intentions I tend toward the judgmental and which is not one of my strong suits, and I often dismissed the idea of setting intentions as a kind of New Age cliche. But I've been disabused of that dismissiveness on the score at the least, and have found that just waking up first thing in the morning and saying like, set the kind of same intention in my mind every day about, like wanting to do good work that helps people that I lose sight of the intention all the time. But it's useful as a pole star. And along those lines I've sometimes thought, I don't know if I have a big resistance to pain, but I've sometimes thought about getting, you know, some words tattooed on my wrist. Like, you know, don't be an asshole or just. Just to remind me. Yeah, not to be a jerk.

Right. Right. Yeah. Intentions are powerful though. The Buddha said karma is intention and it's powerful. Intention is powerful. Imagine if we didn't have those intentions. The intention to know our own minds, what it does, the intention to be kind. It would just go willy nilly all over the place so intentions are really powerful. I remember once being in Burma, done some practice there, and met up with a beautiful nun who actually shaved my head on days where my head needed to be shaved. I had ordained as a nun, and when I went to say goodbye, she was a very advanced practitioner, and I felt so honored to be in her presence. And she was also a medical doctor who's a nun. And I was giving her all my medicines and my umbrella and other things that I wasn't taking home with me. And I said, oh, I have this intention to give you these gifts, but they're so small. And she said, do not say that, Kamala. Do not say that. It's too small. Intention is powerful. Intention is powerful. And that went into me like, wow, Like a beautiful, gentle lightning bolt, how important our intentions are in the world and those things that we think that are small. You know, the morning thing that you say or anybody says about, may I be helpful today? May I try to be as kind and calm as possible? Those things are very, very powerful because it goes into your mind stream and they're accessible, more and more accessible.

A question came up in my mind as I was listening to you talk there. In diversity discussions these days, there's often a line drawn between intention and impact. Because often people who look like me, white people are, especially men, are saying, well, I didn't mean for that to be harmful. And people will sometimes point out, well, maybe they won't say, it doesn't matter what you meant, but it had an impact nonetheless. And so there is this big emphasis in Buddhism on intention being important. But I wonder where you come down on this debate between intention and impact.

Yeah, I'm so glad you brought that up and want to go back to the Buddha's teaching about how intention is karma or karma is intention and impact is a big part of karma. So we have to get nuanced here about this whole intention and impact thing. When we make the intention, we have to remember that's only half of the situation, and that is really important. That's only part of the situation. We do have this intention to be kind, do the best we can, but inadvertently, because we don't know a lot of things, even when we make those intentions, they land on people or on situations that causes something. So this is cause and effect relationship that we really need to understand. This is karma. We may have the intention, but how it lands in the world or on another person is something we need to pay attention to and make that part of our lives. To say, oh, there was this intention, that is true. And I just want to point that out when I'm speaking to somebody, that that's my intention. But now I'm also learning that it has this impact on you. And that impact on you is so important to me. So I want to pay attention to that impact on you. And I don't want to make my intention an excuse. I'm learning that I don't always know how it's going to land on people. Now I'm filling out all these words, Dan, but we can do that in an on the spot way, too. And just say, oh, I realize now that that landed in your heart in a way I didn't even think about. So what can we do about this? And to let that person know, which I have had to do in my own life to let that person know that I'm sorry. And recently I had to do this with somebody fairly close to me in the colleagues that I have in the Dharma that I'm really sorry that it landed and it affected you this way. It wasn't my intention, but it landed on you this way. And I'm really sorry for that. And that's really sincere. So you have to get really nuanced about all of this with this intention and impact thing and really point out the importance of impact when we're speaking to somebody who was impacted by what we did or said. And I'm at fault at that. I do that wrong a number of times where I don't think ahead sometimes. What would the impact be on that person? Because maybe I'm just so in the moment or something just happened and I don't have time to think about it, or I don't have time to put what I call the dharma duct tape on my mouth and just not say anything. You know, it's going so fast, so we're going to make a lot of mistakes and Mistakes meaning hurt people and not have it intended. So, yeah, the big question nowadays is for me is how can I bring just as much importance to understanding the impact as the importance we have given to understanding intention and motivation? It's a new world.

Yes, in many ways. So maybe the bottom line of what you're saying is that it's not an either or both matter, intention and impact.

Absolutely. Yeah.

Let me go back to karma, because I think longtime listeners of the show or anybody who's spent any time in Buddhist circles will completely understand what you're talking about there. But I just do want to represent the newer listeners to the show because hopefully we're adding new listeners all the time and they may say, well, what's this karmic stream stuff?

[Dan Harris]

What is this?

[Kamala Masters]

Are we like far out into the metaphysical soup here or what exactly do you mean when you use terms like karma extreme? I am, by the way, feigning skepticism. I am completely personally comfortable with the term. But I do wanna represent those who might not be.

Oh, yeah, of course. Well, sometimes we think of karma as the cause and effect relationship. And like, what the cause might be that we said something or did something and how it affects somebody out there, it does affect outwardly, you know, our words. And that affects people. But the person or the mind, mind, heart, that holds that energy is inward. The effect of that is also inward. When there are intentions that are fulfilled, intentions, words and actions that are said or done, there is a result of that in our own hearts and minds, not just out there, but the result of that. It's called resultant karma. There's a word for it, karma vipaka, that happens within our own hearts and minds that we carry, and that carrying is our own karmic stream. So that the actions and words and even thoughts that were harmful there will be a result of that within us. And the result of that is feeling pleasant, unpleasant, or sometimes neutral. So the result of that is how we feel inside. We feel the result of that. The result of that might be felt outward too. But the karmic stream I'm talking about is what we feel inside when, say, we've harmed somebody. So let me give an example. If I shout to, like, my grandchildren. And of course, maybe I'm with the intention of not harming, of making sure that they don't get harmed. And that's my intention. Like, don't touch that, it's hot. That is not kind of unwholesome karma. That is wholesome karma. And when I see that my grandchild is shocked or like maybe even hurt that I raised my voice, it's not like that's going into my mind stream as a resultant of unwholesome karmic action. That would not be unwholesome. But if I was harming a child, you know, like punishing a child and hitting the child and whatnot. And then somehow that registers in my own heart and mind. Maybe sometimes a person isn't even aware that it's registering. Of course, a lot of times we aren't aware that it's registering, but that goes into our own heart and mind as part of the process of this human being evolving in this world. So that becomes part of our own mind stream, and it comes out in pleasant and unpleasant ways. I'm making it very simple. Not that I'm thinking I'm working with a simplistic minds here, but it would take a long time to talk about karma.

Karma 101 is very welcomed here. So making it simple is totally fine. Let me go back to. We were talking earlier about things you can do to shave down the odds that you're going to not act out of equanimity in stressful situations. We talked about intentions. One other possible technique I wanted to run by you that I've played with a little bit on my end is meta practice or loving kindness practice, where you might bring to mind somebody difficult and as frustrating as it may be, send them some good vibes in your meditation practice as a way to hopefully impact how you deal with them in real life. Does that land for you?

Yeah, that's a good one. That's a good one to continue on because I can imagine that a good number of the listeners have done some menta practice. So it can be really useful. The way I would recommend it though, is to say we have a situation and we know that this person is difficult for us. I try to reword that. It's not that this is a difficult person, it's that we're having difficulty with that person. So it would be better to start as we do with the metta practice. Start out with somebody that's easy first, to go there first, and especially if we've been hurt in some kind of interaction with that person, to go to ourselves first and send metta to ourselves. Because oftentimes I find with myself and with other students that are doing metta practice that going right to that person is like just kind of saying the words and not really feeling them. So starting out where we can practice some metta for ourselves and bring up somebody that we're easy with to do that, then do that. And sometimes if you just need to do it right away, to picture that person and have people around that person that you care for. So do that in a group. So you are including that person. But this is what Manindra taught me, to surround that person in a group. And that is actually very doable for me.

Surround them with some human shields that. That.

Yeah, well, sometimes I even make the recommendation surround them with your own benefactors or put your benefactors behind you. They're different kind of tricks that we use.

[Dan Harris]

I would love to hear you say.

[Kamala Masters]

More about how we can develop equanimity generally as A quality of mind. Are there specific meditation techniques that you think really work to build our capacity for equanimity?

There are, you know, equanimity is one of the four Brahma viharas, one of the defined abodes, or those practices, say Metta, Metta's one, then compassion, sympathetic joy. Equanimity is the fourth one. And there are equanimity practices, but I just want to go to kind of like a daily level way that you can practice it. Say we're in a situation, you're one to one with somebody, or you're in a small group and oneself is feeling reactive. And we feel it in ourselves. So what we might do is offer equanimity to ourselves first, because we know we need to do something about the situation. And mostly we need to start right here. So one of the things that I do and still do is I remember equanimity. And in the beginning days, I would have to use an actual phrase that says, may I open to things as they are, or may I open to this situation with balance? I'll just use the word balance instead of equanimity. Equanimity is too packed with misunderstanding sometimes. So may I open to this situation with balance so that, you know, I can see all sides, basically. And I'm using open and balance in that. So I would normally send it first to myself. It's an option when you say, may I open to this situation with more balance? And then you might even say something, say you're in this situation. You might even say something to yourself like, may I know what to say? Or when to be quiet. I mean, all of those things occur to me without words. But you might need to put words to it because what you're really trying to handle is your own mind here, not necessarily the other person. So that's what you can do in the moment. It doesn't really help most of the time to try to send Metta to that person in the moment. If it helps, great, go for it. If it helps to start sending Metta to that person. Because your own mind is developing Metta, and you're doing the best you can to offer it. So of course, if that person's right in front of you and you think, I'm just going to send Metta to this person, at least offering Metta will take the place of whatever judgments are coming up or whatever comes up. So Metta helps in that case. But actually, the first course of action could be making your mind kind of more open and balanced so that you can just take a breather in there and you don't have to do anything. Actually, it was really helpful for me to take a course in equanimity from a Tibetan teacher, and in that particular course you needed to practice equanimity first before practicing Metta before going on to the others, so I can see experientially how that can be so after the.

Break, Kamala provides formal meditation instructions for equanimity practice and tells a personal story about a really challenging time in her own life, during which she was so busy that she couldn't even sit down to meditate every day, and how, nonetheless, she learned, with the help of a great teacher, to go very deep in her practice.

[Dan Harris]

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[Kamala Masters]

If I heard you correctly, what you were describing there is a sort of a daily. I think you put it in the context of a kind of a daily thing that you can do. Would you be willing to describe in a little bit more detail if we wanted to do equanimity practice formally, how would we do that? What does that look like? What are the instructions?

Well, usually it would start out in our tradition. It would start out with doing metta first, but you could go directly to equanimity. So one step to take is to. I'm going to put a little spot for Sharon. Sharon teaches equanimity beautifully. Sharon Salzberg and I have equanimity online at Dharma Seed. Also. The way I teach it is I would teach metta first to develop a heart of Metta for yourself. And then, you know, go to the individual beings as we go through oneself, benefactor, dear friend, neutral person, and then difficult person. And then all beings. All beings is really helpful for a lot of people. So that then when we go from metta, usually when I teach equanimity, I do the first days of metta. And then we go on to equanimity, where we are developing equanimity with metta already in our hearts. So we're not going to do the metta practice now. We're going to do the equanimity practice. And actually, equanimity, it has these individuals that we go through. Equanimity starts with a neutral person because with that neutral person, we can more easily develop equanimity towards that person. The phrases are different. The equanimity phrases are. They're more like statements. They're not offerings. They're more like statements of understanding. So in equanimity practice, we're understanding how to be equanimous within us so that we can understand with equanimity that person we are relating to. So one understanding would be pleasure and pain. Arise and pass away. This is how it is. And there are other things like gain and sorrow. Arise and pass away. This is how it is in life. So in that way, these are phrases that have to do with wisdom, where we're coming to understand their deep meaning. So we start off using particular phrases, and maybe we use a phrase like may you have balance in your life. And then maybe we go on to a benefactor. And we use a phrase like, birth and death are part of life. These are phrases that are very wisdom oriented. They're not like sending equanimity to that person. They're very oriented towards understanding that this is the way it is right now. So say now, next you go to a person that's close to you, and then you remember something about that person that they're going through that could be very difficult. And then you Remember that situation, that person, and then you will say a phrase like, this is how it is in your life right now. This is how your life is unfolding. May I open to how it is in your life right now? And so you're always in your phrases, developing the kind of wisdom that's going to align with how it really is in life. And this is what brings equanimity, that we're not reacting to it, that we're aligning in ever deepening ways to the unfolding of life.

And I think that's what you mean when you say these are wisdom phrases, because they direct us to the truth, however uncomfortable, hopefully in a way that allows us to relax into it. In terms of the instructions, I just want to repeat them back to you just to make sure I've got it. From what I heard you would advise, you know, if we've got the time to start with some meta or loving kindness practice. So we might sit in a reasonably quiet place, close our eyes, bring to mind an easy person, envision this person or your dog or your cat, send them the classical phrases which are often, you know, may be happy, maybe safe, healthy, live with ease, move on to yourself, a mentor or benefactor, a neutral person, a difficult person, or a person with whom you're having difficulty, and then all beings. So once the mind is tenderized with a little bit of love and warmth, then you could move to this equanimity practice that you described, which would be again, to call specific people to mind, maybe an easy person yourself, and then go from there and to say phrases that direct your mind and perhaps maybe as somewhat of an offering, the mind of the person who's your meta target or your equanimity target in the moment of gain and loss are inevitable. Birth and death are inevitable. To put us into, in this mind state of this is the way things are.

Right. You were really good at mentioning all of that, Dan. Yeah. So you reviewed it well, and you might even use the last phrase, which is sometimes hard for people to get. The last phrase has to do with karma, the actual traditional phrase, which is all beings are owners of their karma. Their happiness or unhappiness depends upon their actions and not upon my wishes. All beings are owners of their karma. Their happiness or unhappiness depends upon their actions and not upon my wishes. So I have shortened that phrase when I'm working in the equanimity practice with my own children, for example, to say, all beings have their own journey. That's it. Because inwardly I do understand that now my children are grown and seen them go through a lot and I could never really control their journey as much as I tried, you know. And to say you have your own journey and also included in that is a metta. I could say that you have your own journey and all beings have their own journey. Included in that is a deep understanding in my heart that I'll help you as much as I can. And I know that the unfolding of your life is really beyond my control. So that's karma too. Understanding of karma. So got woven together.

How does that work? Are you able to achieve some sort of equanimity when it comes to your own children more?

I have not been always equanimous with my children. That's true. I just have blown my top sometimes. But I never really harmed them physically, of course. And I know that's hard, you know that it's really hard. It's really frustrating. I raised three children on my own when I was in my 20s. It was a hell realm is what sent me to the Dharma. So I really understand that it's not easy and we gonna blow our top and we're gonna say things that we regret and hopefully, you know, we can overcome it and ask for forgiveness. But we're just human. That could be an equanimity phrase. Remember that we're all just human.

It sounds to me also like a self compassion phrase.

Absolutely, yeah.

When it comes to these four Brahma viharas, or divine abodes, I'll admit that as a died in the wool skeptic, when I first heard that term divine abodes, I was a little like this sounds a little grandiose. But now I'm a dedicated practitioner of the meta. Loving kindness in particular, karuna, or compassion, equanimity, upeka. And what's the fourth mudita, sympathetic joy. I do my best to. I don't want to overstate my level of facility with these qualities, but I certainly try. But just to say at the beginning I was a little skeptical. And one thing that's interesting in the Buddhist tradition is that these qualities each have what are called a near enemy and a far enemy, meaning that there's the opposite of equanimity and then there's also this near enemy, which is something that masquerades as the real deal, but is a pitfall. Can you talk about the near and far enemies of equanimity?

Yeah, short thing on the far enemies, which are called far enemies because you can see them from afar and they're predominant and they are Attachment and aversion, those things are easy to see, you know, when we're just kind of having judgments and we know when we're attached to our point of view or we really hate the other person's point of view and other things, too. So that is the far enemy. It comes in two pieces. And the near enemy has a lot to do with delusion, the far enemy with attachment aversion, the near enemy with delusion. Because the near enemy is passivity, where you just feel really passive. You don't care, you don't even know it, but it's like you're not connected. You're really not connected with what's really happening. And so you kind of have a shield on you and there's passivity. Or you say, yeah, I'm cool with this, but you're not really cool with it. Kind of hiding behind all the layers of delusion that all of us have. And that passivity is like doing nothing. You feel just really passive about it. Some people say they feel numb about things that are happening with others or in the world. And I can understand there's so much. So there's a numbness, there's a kind of disconnection. People say that to when they can't feel what's really going on. So that's when you get to be a doormat and people just can step all over you without, you know, you don't say anything about it. But equanimity is not passive. It's active. It can be responsive, but it knows when. Has wisdom said that? Equanimity is very closely related to wisdom, to knowing, basically knowing what's beneficial, what leads to the end of suffering.

Another thing about equanimity is, I've been taught, is that it allows you to come close to other people's suffering to keep your cool so that you can be useful when people need you. Because if your mind is balanced, you're not freaking out in the face of somebody else freaking out, then that could serve you and other people really well.

That's right. That's right. That's why I believe it was taught first, you know, in that Tibetan practice. And we can always bring it along, you know, when even you can make it be part of Metta too. Say, for example, somebody's difficult in our own hearts, and we're doing our best to sending Metta to that person. I offer you my goodwill, and things are just as they are. Just adding that equanimity phrase to it just says, doing the best I can. And things Are just as they are right now. It's important to add that right now to that phrase because it changes all the time.

So I've noticed.

Yes. Yeah.

I do want to pick up on a phrase you used earlier. You said something about in the face of difficult circumstances or people the job is to handle your own mind. And I just think that's worth amplifying because that's a massively empowering and I think, even liberating thing to teach people which is that you can't take responsibility for everything that happens with somebody else, but you can take responsibility for your own mind.

Absolutely. Yeah. And when. If you really put our thoughts around it, it's like the impact that we can make with our energy, first of all, needs to be with ourselves to look what's going on in our own minds because that's what really can change. We really have the possibility of making change in the world, of course. But mostly the potential for change happens in here, in our own hearts. As doing those simple things, I've repeated several times to know what's beneficial and to nurture that. To know what's not beneficial and to refrain from that. And so when we can even know that much, we can act with a lot of power in the world. When going back to Manindra, he would say. I heard him say several times in different instances about how when there is a purity of the mind, even in the moment, you know, when there is no hatred, no greed, no delusion or a lessening of that, the mind is very powerful. What it says, what it does can have a great impact around us. Just the transmission of having the person like that in our presence, even the having a person like that is very powerful. So we can have a greater impact if we pay attention to what's going on inside.

Before I let you go, I wanna. You talked about raising three children on your own. And that bring you to the dharma. I suspect there are some people listening who are like, whoa. Tell me more about that. How did you become such a deeply respected and experienced teacher in this very demanding discipline while raising three children? How did you get your practice time in at home?

I practiced at home a lot because I couldn't go to retreats. But sometimes I could. And I told you my first teacher was Manindraji. And a lot of you in the audience may have heard this story if you've listened to talks before. It's about how I learned how to practice at home, which was so important because practicing at home in my daily life walking through the hallways, opening doors Washing dishes helped me, when I went to my first retreat, be able to have continuity in my practice. So it was the continuity that really helped me. When I first came to the Dharma, I brought Manindra to Maui to teach a retreat. And so he did. And he came home with us. And the three children, or did I have four at the time? No, I had three. So anyway, he said, do you sit every day? I said, no, I can't sit every day. And he said, well, what do you do? And I just. Right away I said, mostly what I do is wash dishes. So he said, okay, let's go to the sink. So he stood right beside me as if we were under the Bodhi tree. And he taught me how to wash the dishes. Like just when feeling the warm water, just no feeling. Feeling or warmth. Warmth or. What are you thinking now? He would ask me. I'm worrying, worrying, worrying. Okay, note worrying. We did all that. And then he said, do you do walking meditation? And I said, no. He said, well, where do you walk? And I said, usually from the dining room to the bedroom and back forth. He said, let's go there. And we went there and he taught me how to do walking meditation every time I stepped in that hallway. So that's how I learned. And that's what I did for a long, long time. I took his advice and I did it. And then when I would go to sit, as soon as they gave the instructions, the mind would just take it in and I would just say, oh, okay, I'll do that. So I would just go to the breath, just be there when it goes to something else. Notice that. Okay, come back to the breath. Okay. I was so desperate, I would do anything. When I went to my first long retreat, it was a very. I could see, yeah, I can practice. You know, I can really practice sitting down and being quiet. And yeah, it was really helpful to do that. Practice at home, everyday practice.

I think that story is going to be potentially extremely helpful and empowering for anybody with little kids at home or anybody who's feels that their life is too busy to do any sustained level of practice. We could just do it walking wherever we have to walk already and while doing whatever chores we have to do already. So it's really helpful.

I'm glad.

Two final questions for you. One is, is there something I should have asked but didn't?

I mean, I. I really wanted to be helpful to everybody and I think I. I try to be as down to earth helpful as possible.

Well, now it's my turn to give a Gold star because you absolutely were. And that leads me to my final, final question, which is I assume people having listened, may want to learn more from you. So do you have a website or any resources you've put out into the world that you would like to direct people to?

Yes, they can go to Dhamma Awareness or they can go to the website Vipassana Metta on Maui. I and my partner Steve Armstrong do every Wednesday a sitting with people every Wednesday. And it's helpful. And then my retreats that I'm doing are on that website.

We'll put a link in the show, notes for people listening.

Okay, good.

Kamala, thank you so much. Really appreciate it.

You're welcome. Thank you, Dan. I appreciate the work you're doing. Gold star for you too.

[Dan Harris]

Thanks again to Kamala. Love hanging out with her. Thanks as well to everybody who works so hard on this show. Our producers are Tara Anderson, Caroline Keenan and Eleanor Vasily. Our recording and engineering is handled by the great folks over at Pod People. Lauren Smith is our production manager, Marissa Schneiderman is our senior producer, DJ Kashmir is our executive producer. And Nick Thorburn of the band Islands wrote our theme. If you like 10% happier, and I.

[Kamala Masters]

Hope you do, you can listen early and ad free right now by joining.

[Dan Harris]

Wondery plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. Prime members can listen ad free on Amazon Music. Before you go, tell us about yourself by filling out a short [e-mail] survey.

[Unknown]

Hello, ladies and germs, boys and girls. The Grinch is back again to ruin your Christmas season with Tis the Grinch Holiday Podcast. After last year, he's learned a thing or two about hosting and he's ready to rant against Christmas cheer and roast his celebrity guests like chestnuts on an open fire. You can listen with the whole family as guest stars like Jon Hamm, Brittney Broski and Danny DeVito try to persuade the mean old Grinch that there's a lot to love about the insufferable holiday season. But that's not all. Somebody stole all the children of Whoville's letters to Santa and everybody thinks the Grinch is responsible. It's a real Whoville Whodunit. Can Cindy Lou and Max help clear the Grinch's name? Grab your hot cocoa and cozy slippers to find out. Follow Tis the Grinch Holiday Podcast on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. Unlock weekly Christmas mystery bonus content and listen to every episode ad free by joining Wondery in the Wondery App, Spotify or Apple Podcasts.

3, 2, 1. Lift off with an entirely new way.

[Dan Harris]

To play Wondery Kids and the number one kids podcast wow in the World are making stem toys fun like never before. Tinker with slime bubbling volcanoes, build rockets that fart and uncover dynamite dinosaurs for.

[Unknown]

The first time ever. Be wowed with exquisite, exclusive engaging companion audio that comes with each stem toy. And as you play, Guy Raz and I, co hosts of wow in the World, bring you and your family bunker balls, facts about the natural world like how crystals and rainbows are related.

[Dan Harris]

And each stem toy includes a bonus science tool and three months of Wondery plus free so the whole family can listen to their favorite podcasts like wow in the World early and ad free.

[Unknown]

Shop wow in the World Toy collection [e-mail] wonderykids that's Amazon.com w o n D E R Y Kids.