Tara Anderson (4:21)

This is Tara Anderson. I'm a producer on the podcast team and I want to share part of an interview with Biku Bodhi. This episode came out in September of 2022 when I had just started my job with 10% happier and I was asked to listen to a chunk of it for a quality check. That's the last step we go through before publishing an episode, just to make sure everything sounds okay. I didn't know anything about the guest, but I did know a little bit about the topic, the Four Foundations of Mindfulness. This episode was part of a series on those four foundations, and this one was about mindfulness of mind, which is being aware of what's going on in your mind itself, which is meta as hell and can be pretty confusing. The first thing I noticed about Bhikkhu Boddy was that he sounds just like Christopher Walken. Turns out they're around the same age and they're both from New York City, so it makes sense. It made me smile to think of Christopher Walken wearing monk's robes talking about these Buddhist concepts. The second thing I noticed was how clear and precise his words are. He uses a few Buddhist terms, but he's quick to define them so anyone can follow. And Dan, as usual, does a great job of restating and summarizing for the audience. I was only supposed to listen to a small part of this episode for quality purposes, but I ended up listening to the whole thing because I was so interested. I learned a lot, and I was also really psyched that listening to this kind of material was my job. Now, nearly three years later, I get to keep learning, and I'm really happy to play a part in bringing this kind of conversation to our listeners. Hope you enjoy.

Dan Harris (6:07)

Thank you so much, Tara. All right, now let's hear the part of the interview with Bhikkhu Bodhi that Tara is referencing. He starts by explaining the definition of mindfulness of mind, and then he goes into the actual how to of it all. So how do you learn to get more resolution on your mind states, which tend to change throughout the day?

Bhikkhu Bodhi (6:28)

Yeah, well, within the actual practice of Satipatthana, the practice of mindful observation, the task is not so much to make an effort to control the state of mind, but simply to note and to observe what state of mind has arisen. Though of course, mindfulness has to work together with right effort so that one is not indulging those states that arise, but part of the right effort. Here is the effort just to note whatever mind state has arisen and to note it clearly and then to drop it, to let it go, and then it will be followed by other mind states will arise. But this is where the observation of individual states of mind starts. As it builds up momentum, then it starts to turn into a continuous and consistent observation of what is taking place within the mind, so that the mind states are occurring not as solid blocks which control and dominate the mind, but just like little flickers of mental states which just pop their head up for a moment and then when they are recognized and identified, then they fall away. Yeah. I came up with a certain simile to illustrate how this process takes place. If I could relate that, please. I compare this to, like we have a shop in which there are goods for sale and there are no mirrors in the corners to observe the rows. And there's no inspector on the floor. Okay, so we have a kleptomaniac comes into the shop, and he looks around and he sees that there are no mirrors, no observation mirrors. And so he's able to take some goods, put it into his pocket, and then maybe dispel any suspicion he might buy a cheap item and then he walks out and he's taken the valuable items with him. Okay, so that is like the way the mind ordinarily works without observation. But when we have corner mirrors which are reflecting the image of the hidden rose back to the cashier or to somebody inspector on the floor, then when the thief comes into the shop, then he'll look around and he'll see that he's under observation, that there are these mirrors reflecting him in every row. And then he'll just leave the shop empty handed and maybe go to another shop. And so in this way, when the mind is not under observation, the way the mind ordinarily works, when these unwholesome or defiled mental states arise, we don't recognize them. And in that way those states are able to gain power over the mind, to gain control over the mind and to dominate the mind. But it's when we use the power of mindfulness to simply recognize the state of mind that's arisen, identify it and then drop it, that the state of mind is able to pass without doing any damage to the texture of the mind.

Dan Harris (9:47)

How do we know when we're actually being mindful?

Bhikkhu Bodhi (9:50)

That's a good question. Because so many times, I mean, I've sat thinking I'm being, I've sat thinking I'm being mindful and then I realize that I've been way back in the past or planning things for the future. But let us say that the defining characteristic of mindfulness. There are many ways to conceptualize mindfulness, but the way I would put it succinctly, at least with the kind of practice that one undertakes in the foundations of mindfulness, that mindfulness is keeping oneself under observation, keeping the either observing things going on in the physical body or keeping the mind under observation, the feelings or the mind under observation. So when one can recognize that one is sustaining that process of self observation, then one knows that one is being mindful. But at other times one can be sitting with the intention of being mindful, but the mind will drift away from mindfulness and that's quite natural and normal too. But then when one realizes that the mind has drifted, well, that recognition that the mind has drifted is itself a function of mindfulness.

Dan Harris (11:20)

This observation language you're using, I can see in my own mind and I can imagine this happening in other people's minds. A militant or a setting up of a sort of internal nanny state that can get compulsive rather than helpful.

Bhikkhu Bodhi (11:36)

Yeah, that can happen. It depends on how one undertakes that process of observation, the kind of attitude and mindset that one brings to the process of what I call observation. So it can be, as you said, something of a nanny state if one maybe brings the wrong approach. But I would say that the healthy and fruitful approach is that one comes to the process of observation keeping the mind soft, gentle, non judgmental, but also curious to see and understand what is taking place. I say it's primarily that sort of what I call that soft, gentleman, relaxed but diligent framework in which the contemplation or observation takes place that keeps it on the right track and prevents it from becoming a process by which one engages in self blame, self condemnation, and so forth.

Dan Harris (12:46)

Just to go back to the practical here, as I understand it, nowhere in the Sutta does the Buddha actually give detailed instructions on how to establish mindfulness of one's mind states. But you've come up with some instructions. Would you mind walking us through them?

Bhikkhu Bodhi (13:05)

Yeah, that's what's interesting also, because in my own sort of experience of trying to practice according to the method of the Satipatthana sutta, when it came to the mindfulness of the mind, couldn't find what I would call clear, direct, systematic explanations of how one undertakes the contemplation of the mind. So as I sort of reflected on this, I developed a method. I don't want to say that it's under copyright, patent registration or anything like that, but it just seemed to be an effective way to see what's going on in the mind. So what I did was to take as a focus point of observation the word mind. And so to undertake this, I would have to build up a certain momentum of maybe mindfulness and capacity for concentration through the practice of a method like mindfulness of breathing. So that the initial tendency of the mind to wander, to get overrun by thoughts and emotions and so on, settles down somewhat and the mind becomes more quiet and sort of stabilized. Then I would run through the mind, the word mind, and make the task just to observe within the mind the word mind as it's being mentally verbalized. And so when I'm doing this, it's not an automatic process like reciting a mantra, but one is turning the mind back upon itself to watch the word mind as it is passing through the mind with each mental recitation of the word mind. And so mentally reciting the word mind keeps the mind focused upon itself. And so one is watching the word mind, mind, mind, passing through the mind. But what inevitably happens is before Long, you've lost the word mind or you're just. Or I'm just reciting it without mindfulness. And the mind has wandered, it's strayed into any of the bypaths of mental activity. And so when that happens, what one does is to identify what is that mental state that has arisen. And that's where I found that I'm applying the template that the contemplation of the mind section of the Satipatthana Sutta gives us. So if it's a mind, say desiring things, say, thinking about the meal that's coming up, maybe it's the morning. If I'm in my room and then I get the smells coming from the kitchen, then I'm thinking, ah, craving for delicious food, mind with desire, mind with lust. If I'm thinking of somebody did something wrong to me and I'm angry about it, then it's mind with hatred, mind with anger. If I'm just maybe engaging in some speculations or some doubts, then it becomes mind with delusion. And then also while I was doing this, I also noticed that in. I would have to say that the section on contemplation of mind in the Satipatthana Sutta, even though it has these 16 pairs of contrasting mental states, but it's not all inclusive for contemplating what is taking place within the mind. So then I found it's useful to use another template which I partly started to sketch, which is to see where is the mind dwelling? What is it dwelling on? And then I found that when the mind is not present, when it's not focused on the present, then it's gone in either of two directions. It's either gone back to the past or it's jumped ahead to the future. And so we have mind dwelling on the past, which will be remembering the past either accurately or inaccurately. And then when the mind dwells on the past, it could be dwelling on the past either with, you might say the sorrowful emotions, that is with sadness, maybe with grief, with distress, regret, remorse, guilt. Or it could be dwelling on the past with happy states, happy memories, joyful memories, nostalgia, fondness for the past. So that would be mind dwelling on the past. And then we could have mind projecting on the other side of the tracks, mind projecting into the future. And then the mind can be projecting into the future with imagination, with desire, craving, hope and expectations, or with, on the other negative side with fear, worry, anxiety, or so those would be rooted in aversion. Or it could be projecting into the future in ways that would Be based on delusion, with idle imaginings, with idle expectations and so forth. Probably you could expand these lists still further, but these were some of the types of mental activity that I sketched on the basis of my own lived experience in trying to practice contemplation of the mind.

Dan Harris (18:56)

So let me just see if I can state these meditation instructions back to you. The first is to repeat the word mind silently in your own mind at a decent clip. Mind, mind, mind. And that has the. Well, actually, I missed the step. The first is you may want to get calm, concentrated, collected by sitting and focusing on the breath for a while, which can create some level of focus in the mind. Then you bring in this kind of mantra of the word mind within your own mind.

Bhikkhu Bodhi (19:31)

Yeah, but I don't want to use the word mantra.

Dan Harris (19:33)

Right. Because you're not. It's not quite a mantra.

Bhikkhu Bodhi (19:36)

Yeah. It's not like a mechanical recitation.

Dan Harris (19:39)

What's the difference between your suggested use of this repetition of the word mind? What's the difference between that and what you are calling a mechanical repetition?

Bhikkhu Bodhi (19:50)

I guess the mechanical repetition, you're just reciting it without, let's say, the point. The way I use the word mind, the point is to turn the mind back upon itself in order to observe the mind by running the word mind through the mind.

Dan Harris (20:11)

So as I'm saying this word mind, it's reminding me to look at the machinery of this thing or not a thing called the mind.

Bhikkhu Bodhi (20:23)

Yeah.

Dan Harris (20:25)

Inevitably then I will get distracted. And at that point when I wake up from distraction, I can see, oh, what is the state of mind in which I've been dwelling during this distraction? And I can make a note of it. And then I'm starting to get into this habit of seeing the mind states that grip me.

Bhikkhu Bodhi (20:45)

Exactly. And I should also add to this that at a certain point when one develops the. Let us say, the skill in observing the mind by using the word mind as a reminder to turn back and observe the mind. Once one develops a certain skill and momentum with that, then what I found in my practice that then I can then drop the word mind. And then I just remain focused on that constant. We call it the flux of mental activity. And so at that point, one is seeing what's going on within the mind occurring at very, very rapid pace, just kind of rapid arising and vanishing of thoughts, feelings, emotions and so on, just coming almost instantaneously.

Dan Harris (21:39)

Is that achievable off of retreat? Because I've had a few moments on meditation retreat, day seven or whatever, where I click into this state of dramatically reduced mental chatter and a much more on top of whatever's happening in my mind, the things coming in through the ear and the eye and the physical sensations and the random thoughts, urges and emotions, I'm right on top of it in a way that I'm not in my daily life. So this kind of sustained mindfulness that you're describing, is that something we can expect in our daily 10 minute meditation?

Bhikkhu Bodhi (22:17)

I say very difficult in a 10 minute meditation. Even in a 45 minute meditation, I could sort of get into that state pretty much only in a retreat setting or after doing like several hours of meditation a day in a stretch and the day to day, like regular practice. I would do the contemplation of mind, but I'm almost reliant on using the word mind as a focal point for turning back on the mind. But to get into that sort of just the unverbalized observation of the constant rapid flux of mental events that takes place to pick up the momentum for that, it pretty much requires for me a retreat setting. Maybe somebody who has sharper faculties can do it just with a regular daily practice, but I have rather. I'm a slow. A bit of a slow boat. Yeah.

Dan Harris (23:14)

Well, you're in good company. Or bad company as the case may be. Thank you to Bhikkhu Bodhi and thank you to Tara for suggesting that excerpt. She has great taste. We'll put a link to the full episode if you want to hear it in the show notes. Don't forget to head on over to danharris.com to become part of our little community where we're now serving up guided meditations that go with every Monday, Wednesday episode of this show. We also have live guided video meditation sessions. With me, I take your questions. You also get ad free versions of the show. There's a lot going on. Go check it out. Danharris.com finally, thank you to everybody who worked so hard to make make this show. Our producers are Tara Anderson, Caroline Keenan and Eleanor Vasily. Our recording and engineering is handled by the awesome people over at Pod People. Lauren Smith is our managing producer, Marissa Schneiderman is our senior producer. DJ Cashmere is our executive producer. And Nick Thorburn of the band Islands wrote our theme.