How To Get Out Of Your Head: Joseph Goldstein and Sam Harris on Nirvana, Non-Clinging, Non-Duality, and the Best Way to Meditate

Podcast: 10% Happier with Dan Harris
Date: November 19, 2025
Host: Dan Harris | Guests: Joseph Goldstein & Sam Harris

Episode Overview

In this rich, highly intellectual—and often humorous—discussion, meditation luminaries Joseph Goldstein and Sam Harris join Dan Harris to debate the practical and philosophical nuances of two major meditation approaches: Vipassana (insight meditation, rooted in early Buddhist tradition) and Dzogchen (a direct path in Tibetan Buddhism). The core of their years-long friendly contention centers on which path leads most effectively to liberation: gradual cultivation (Vipassana) or direct recognition (Dzogchen) of non-duality and selflessness. The conversation also explores why these abstract concepts matter for ordinary meditators seeking relief from everyday suffering.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Defining Non-Duality: Multiple Meanings, Multiple Traditions

[08:54–22:36]

• Joseph Goldstein sets the stage by noting “non-duality” is a term with different meanings depending on the Buddhist (and non-Buddhist) context; confusing these can muddle discussions.
  • In Theravada, it can mean the unified mind of absorption (Jhana), or the collapse of dichotomies like “existence vs. non-existence.”
  • In Mahayana/Vajrayana (including Dzogchen), non-duality often refers to the inseparability of samsara and nirvana, and the unity of awareness (clarity) and emptiness.

"If we're not really precise about how we're using the term, then it's going to be hard to have conversations about it with anyone."
— Joseph Goldstein (09:55)

• They distinguish the final, most practical usage: non-duality as collapse of the observer/observed divide.

• Sam Harris clarifies: Dzogchen doesn’t ask you to “get anywhere”—instead, you recognize that the ordinary sense of being a separate subject is illusory and that liberation is available right now.

"It's possible to have that same experience of reading your email as a Buddha would have that experience ... you have to cease to do something that's obscuring that way of seeing in this next moment."
— Sam Harris (28:22)

2. Why Does This Matter? From the Abstract to the Ordinary

[19:59–23:08 | 33:38–35:16]

• Dan Harris repeatedly grounds the discussion, asking: Why should a regular meditator, just trying to be less stressed, care about these heady debates?
• Joseph asserts all these teachings ultimately serve one thing: the end of suffering. If a philosophical point doesn’t help alleviate suffering, it doesn’t matter.
  • The collapse of the subject/object divide (non-dual awareness) is not abstract—it’s a practical means of reducing the sense of ownership over emotions, thus reducing suffering.

"For me, anyway, that's the bottom line … does it alleviate suffering or not?"
— Joseph Goldstein (21:59)

• Sam argues the direct path of Dzogchen “cashes the check” of Buddhist promise—immediate relief—rather than a prolonged process that can endlessly feel like “work in progress.”

3. Clinging vs. Non-Clinging—And Why the “Self” is the Real Sticking Point

[35:16–38:54 | 41:41–53:41]

• “Clinging” is at the heart of Buddhist psychology—our suffering comes from our attachment (to pleasant experience, to identity, to the wish that things be different).
• Sam posits you can reduce clinging in a dualistic framework (observer seeing experience), but true freedom—cutting the root—is only possible when the duality itself drops away. Otherwise, it’s like “having equanimity about a snake you still think is in the room.”
• Joseph notes Theravada recognizes different forms of liberation—freedom from “defilements” (kilesas) and final cessation (nibbana). Both traditions allow for freedom from suffering; the difference may be more about framing than substance.

"Ordinary practitioner, what's the importance of this? ... It's not about some philosophic view, apart from does it alleviate suffering or not."
— Joseph Goldstein (21:59)

4. The Passive Voice Practice: A Bridge to Non-Duality

[44:49–48:08; 72:27–73:30]

• Joseph describes his “passive voice” practice: Instead of “I am hearing a sound,” use “sounds are being known.”
  • This linguistic shift can help collapse the illusion of a separate self.
  • Dan testifies this has been transformative for him and can be done anywhere, anytime—not just on retreat.

"Things are being known effortlessly, spontaneously ... as soon as I got my mind into that linguistic frame ... the duality of separate subject and object disappears." — Joseph Goldstein (48:13)

5. What is Freedom? Moment-to-Moment or a Distant Goal?

[64:24–70:22]

• The Buddha’s Bāhiya Sutta is cited frequently: “In the seen, just the seen …”
  • Sam: True mindfulness, if it pays off, delivers freedom instantly, not as a distant goal.
  • Joseph: Both paths strive for the same outcome; differences may lie in language, technique, and metaphysical assumptions.

"Either a moment of mindfulness really delivers the goods of freedom no matter what's happening or it doesn't ... only non dual mindfulness cashes the check."
— Sam Harris (64:24)

6. Do the Endpoints of Practice Really Differ?

[79:07–85:14]

• Joseph highlights a genuine divergence: In traditional Theravada, ultimate reality is not awareness itself but the cessation even of awareness (“lights out,” nibbana). In Dzogchen, realization is the recognition of the inseparability of awareness and emptiness, inherently free.
• Yet, in practice, both methods can yield deeply liberating insights.

“If one acknowledges that the endpoints are different ... there are many ways to the endpoint, non-dual awareness ... just an expression of non-self.”
— Joseph Goldstein (83:23)

7. Pragmatic Advice for Listeners

[90:59–98:09]

• Don’t get bogged down in abstract debates—follow what works for relieving suffering.
• Not every practice or explanation clicks for everyone. The “passive voice” practice may take time; don’t force it.
• Both Joseph and Sam agree supportive, preparatory practices (concentration, mindfulness, basic insight) are valuable and often necessary for deeper realization.

“In whatever has been heard, any thread of it that seems of interest, just to pursue that thread ... If there’s something in what was said that helps relieve suffering, go for it.”
— Joseph Goldstein (97:35)

Notable Quotes & Moments

• Joseph: “Non-duality as being the non-separation of observer and observed … can be found across traditions. This is the one that I think we might unpack as having impact in how we're living in the world and how we're experiencing things.” [20:31]
• Sam: “You have to cease to do something that is obscuring that way of seeing in this next moment … there's an act of misperception ... that has to be cut through.” [29:14]
• Joseph: “In the Theravada tradition, samsara refers to all conditioned phenomena ... awareness itself, consciousness itself, is seen as dependently arising as a conditioned phenomenon.” [17:11]
• Dan: “The ability to be aware of whatever's arising in our mind ... without claiming it as ours ... is inherently and deeply freeing.” [50:55]

Key Timestamps

• 08:54 – Joseph defines non-duality, and why definitions matter
• 17:11 – Differing views of samsara and nirvana (Theravada vs. Dzogchen)
• 22:36 – Sam: “Each view is self-confirming”
• 33:38 – The practical importance: How does non-dual awareness reduce suffering?
• 44:49 – Joseph’s “passive voice” technique for non-duality
• 53:41 – Sam: “Cutting through dualistic clinging is the core of Dzogchen”
• 64:24 – The Bahiyasutta: “In the seeing, just the seen ...” and immediate freedom
• 72:27 – Dan and Joseph on the accessibility of “passive voice” non-duality
• 79:07 – Joseph: Different traditions have genuinely different “endpoints”
• 90:59 – Joseph’s closing advice: Pursue what works for you; be patient
• 97:35 – Final thoughts: Don’t obsess over the right or wrong method—relieve suffering

Tone & Interactions

• The conversation is deeply respectful, frequently funny, and occasionally sharp in its philosophical distinctions. There is playful ribbing, with the dynamic balancing Sam’s urgency for a “direct path” and Joseph’s patient, comprehensive approach. Dan helps demystify concepts for listeners, keeping the debate grounded in practical value.

For Listeners: The Takeaway

• If meditation feels like “work” and freedom like a distant peak, explore both gradual (“climb the mountain”) and direct (“rest as awareness now”) approaches.
• Use language (like Joseph's passive voice) as a tool to notice how you relate to experience.
• Most importantly, whatever path you take, measure progress by reduction in suffering and increased freedom—not by fitting into any doctrinal box.

End of Summary

This summary captures the rich terrain covered in the episode—practical, philosophical, and personal—offering signposts for both novice and seasoned meditators, and helping bridge the gap between abstract wisdom and everyday liberation.