How To Handle Toxic Thoughts | Sebene Selassie and Jeff Warren

Summary

Podcast Summary: How To Handle Toxic Thoughts | Sebene Selassie and Jeff Warren

10% Happier with Dan Harris
Date: August 27, 2025

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Episode Overview

In this episode of 10% Happier, Dan Harris speaks with meditation teachers—and close friends—Sebene Selassie and Jeff Warren. The lively, candid discussion, recorded live at their annual Meditation Party retreat, centers around the challenges of managing “toxic thoughts” and difficult emotions. The trio explores how the voice in our head can torment us, the interplay between thoughts and emotions, the role of community, practical Buddhist wisdom for working with hindrances in practice, and why dancing is such a vulnerable, liberating, and awkward experience. The episode also features DJ and Dharma practitioner Aaron Schulz, who brings fresh insight into dance, self-consciousness, and personal freedom.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The “Voice in Your Head” and Its Mischief (10:05–12:10)

• Slippery Nature of Thoughts:

  • Dan Harris describes thoughts as "slippery little fuckers" (10:42), noting how easily we’re carried away by mental chatter.
  • Sebene Selassie finds emotions more tangible than thoughts, which she likens to "sneaky, pernicious gnats" (10:12–10:44), highlighting their ephemeral quality.
  • Joseph Goldstein’s advice: when you’re aware you’re thinking, "just look for the thought," which exposes their insubstantiality.

• Quote [Dan, 11:00]:
  "To use his little phrase, they're little more than nothing...they’re these quantum bursts of energy in the mind and they pass through."

• The Power of Examination:

  • Harris shares a teaching from Sam Harris (via Joseph Goldstein): “Unexamined, thoughts are everything. Everything examined, they're little more than nothing.” (11:47)

2. Emotional States, “Affective Realism,” and the Whale Analogy (12:11–15:23)

• Affective Realism:
  • Jeff Warren explains how moods and emotions color all perception, trapping us in “mood tunnels” (12:11–12:45).
  • The interplay of thoughts and feelings creates stubborn cycles: "You have a feeling…then those thoughts reinforce that feeling…you never really totally come out of the tunnel" (12:46–13:55).
  • The “whale” analogy: losing awareness is like being “swallowed by a whale” and only noticing when you “wake up” on the other side (13:55–14:42).
• Practice Advice:
  • It’s natural to get lost in thoughts—curiosity, not frustration, is a better response.
  • Selassie notes that intense emotions can actually foster focus, while she’s more prone to “busyness whale” that swallows attention in daily life (14:43–15:23).

3. Working with Sticky, Trauma-Based Thoughts and Stories (15:54–22:13)

• Dealing with Core Wounds:
  • Audience question (Amy): How to work with sticky stories rooted in trauma.
  • Selassie: Meditation is "not the only tool"; therapy, community, and a variety of practices are vital (16:47–18:48).
  • Quote [Selassie, 17:26]:
    "We’re not going to use a hammer on a screw...we really need to understand what's needed in that moment."
• Compassion and Community:
  • Warren advocates for self-compassion and patience, noting that some stories soften simply through “acceptance” over years of practice (19:45–21:10).
• Group Support:
  • The healing power of connecting with others who share struggles: “Oh, man. Okay, we can do this together. And that is healing, too.” (21:21)

4. Practical Meditation Adjustments & Modalities (22:17–25:15)

• Experimenting with Practice Styles:
  • Kelly shares how keeping her eyes open during meditation worked better for her, defying her idea of the “correct” way to meditate (22:17–23:39).
  • Jeff Warren notes that open-eyed practice is common in Tibetan traditions and can crowd out thoughts (23:39–24:01).
  • Selassie recommends alternatives like standing or walking meditation, reinforcing that "perfectly still, eyes closed" is a myth (24:15–24:38).
  • Harris highlights the value of walking meditation for catching thoughts “in the act” (24:38).

5. Managing Difficult Emotions without Avoidance (25:13–31:07)

• The “Home Base” Question:

  • Greg wonders if retreating to “home base” (e.g., breath) is avoidance.
  • Warren and Selassie distinguish between skillful shifting attention (for overwhelm) and subtle avoidance of feelings (25:34–28:10).
  • Turning towards challenging sensations with curiosity and acceptance (not “I’ll be with this pain so it’ll go away”) is key (28:10–31:07).
  • Quote [Selassie, 28:10]:
    "It's not about managing it or controlling it or bringing any more tightness…but really softening and seeing how much we can let things be and really allow."

• Practical Phrases:

  • Selassie often asks: “What’s happening right now? Can I allow this?” (28:10)

6. The Five Hindrances and Skillful Responses (31:28–37:37)

• Selassie introduces the Five Hindrances (craving, aversion, restlessness, sloth/sleepiness, doubt) and their role in practice (28:10–37:37).
• Discussion: Hindrances aren’t “bad”; they represent reactive patterns. There are creative, conscious ways to respond to challenges, and the spiritual work lies in noticing and softening reactivity.

7. Mysteries of Progress and “Good Sits” (32:28–38:34)

• Nonlinear Progress:
  • Warren calls meditation progress “mysterious…like two steps forward, one step back,” and likens it to the “northern lights” (33:39).
  • Complete, equanimous experiences clear old patterns; but “you can’t bottle and chug [these] on command” (33:39–35:42).
• Impermanence:
  • Harris relays the story: After a friend rhapsodizes about a perfect sit, another friend replies, “You will never experience that again,” reminding us not to cling to special experiences (38:32).

8. Working Directly with Thoughts in Meditation (40:10–44:55)

• Labeling and Usefulness:
  • Selassie drops unhelpful thoughts, questions their usefulness, and shifts attention as needed (40:10).
• Contemporary Methods:
  • Warren shares Shinzen Young’s modalities: see-in (images), hear-in (internal talk), feel-in (emotions)—developing clarity about types of thinking (41:42).
• Joseph Goldstein’s Cues:
  • “Dead end” and “up and out”—quick self-reminders to disengage from ruminative, intrusive thoughts (43:51).

9. Dancing, Self-Consciousness, and Dharma with Aaron Schulz (48:17–68:14)

• Introducing Aaron Schulz (DJ & Dharma Teacher):
  • Schulz blends deep devotional practice and nightlife, shaping music’s role as personal and spiritual liberation (48:24–49:53).
• Dancing as Spiritual Practice:
  • Discussion of self-consciousness, cultural norms, and the vulnerability of dancing—mirroring challenges on the meditation cushion (51:02–55:56).
  • Quote [Schulz, 64:16]:
    “In the lineage I practice in, we believe that everybody is inherently free. There’s nothing out there to get. You’re already enlightened...for me, dance is an expression of that freedom that we all have inside of us.”
• Practical Tips to Overcome Inhibition:
  • Lowering “the bar” of embarrassment so everyone relaxes (58:19–58:47).
  • Noticing how self-consciousness feels in the body, “dancing with” these sensations (55:56–58:19).
  • Collective movement: why group dances or line dances might be more accessible than freeform movement (74:22–75:10).

10. Right Effort, Neurodivergence, and Trusting Your Path (68:23–74:03)

• Right Effort & Expectations:
  • Audience members ask about balancing effort, self-judgment, and adapting practices to neurodivergence (ADHD).
  • Harris: “If you’re expecting a certain flavor of sits or some sort of performance on the cushion, it’s just fucked from the jump” (70:40).
  • Warren: “The trunk of practice is not sitting in stillness. The trunk is whether you’re being present” (73:48).
  • Movement practices are valid, especially for those with ADHD; adapt practice to your wiring and value presence over method.

11. Shame vs. Wise Remorse (75:39–80:43)

• Audience member Melissa asks about dealing with shame as a parent.
• Warren: “My trauma therapist says if there’s shame, there’s trauma.”
• Harris distinguishes between shame (“I am terrible”) and wise remorse (“I did something terrible”), supporting self-compassion as the antidote.
• Quote [Warren, 79:42]:
  "Shame is useless. Shame is not true. There is never a case ever in which you are bad...shame has nothing useful in it.”

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• The Insubstantiality of Thought:
  "In the not finding is the finding." —Dan Harris (43:51)
• Whale Analogy:
  "For the last five minutes, the whale swallowed reality...That’s never going to stop...I no longer get upset about getting carried away and instead get interested." —Dan Harris (13:55–14:42)
• Shit-colored Glasses:
  "Shit-colored glasses." —Jeff Warren, on affective realism (12:45)
• On Community:
  "Chatting, having people to talk about it with, like, community. That’s one of the things I find so great..." —Jeff Warren (21:21)
• On Practice Freedom:
  "You have to work with how you’re wired." —Jeff Warren (73:48)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 10:05 – Slippery Nature of Thoughts
• 12:11 – Emotional “Mood Tunnels” & Whale Analogy
• 15:54 – Sticky Stories & Trauma
• 22:17 – Adjusting Meditation for Personal Needs
• 25:13 – Home Base vs. Avoidance
• 28:10 – Five Hindrances Explained
• 32:28 – The Mystery of Progress in Meditation
• 38:32 – Letting Go of “Perfect” Sits
• 40:10 – Working with Thoughts: Labeling, Dropping, Shinzen Young’s Techniques
• 48:17 – Introduction of Special Guest DJ Aaron Schulz
• 51:02 – Dancing and Spirituality
• 68:23 – Right Effort, ADHD, and Making Practice Your Own
• 75:39 – Shame, Trauma, and Wise Remorse

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Takeaways

• Handling Toxic Thoughts:
  Meet thoughts with curiosity and investigation, not aversion.
• Emotional Patterns:
  Recognize the cycles between thoughts and feelings—see how moods shape perception.
• Working with Trauma:
  Use a mix of tools: meditation, therapy, community. Healing is patient work.
• Adapting Practice:
  The form matters less than the presence you bring—explore walking, standing, moving, or dancing meditation as valid paths.
• Right Effort:
  Don’t judge your practice by “performance” or sit quality. The practice is simply being with what is.
• Shame vs. Remorse:
  Move from shame (“I am bad”) to wise remorse (“I did something unskillful”) using self-compassion.
• Collective Practice:
  Community, vulnerability, and collective movement (including dancing!) are powerful antidotes to loneliness and self-judgment.

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For more:

• Live guided meditations and community events at danharris.com
• Meditation Party retreat info at eomega.org

Transcript

[A]

One of the bigger challenges in my life and in the life of my family is what are we going to eat? My wife and I are super busy all day long and then the end of the day arrives and we look at each other like, yo, what are we going to do for dinner? It can be a pain and it can be the source of mild conflict. And so one great solution that I have found is Factor. Factor helps me eat smarter with tasty chef prepped meals that are dietitian approved and delivered right to my door. I've eaten these meals many, many times. They are legit delicious. And now with more than 65 weekly meals made for how I live and maybe how you live, I've got more ways to fit in a real meal wherever the day takes me. You can choose from a wide selection of weekly meal options including premium seafood choices like salmon and shrimp at no extra cost. For the first time, you can try Asian inspired meals with bold flavors influenced by China, Thailand and more for more choices to better nutrition. That's why 97% of customers say that Factor helped them live a healthier life. You can feel the difference no matter what your routine is. Like I said, I've tried Factor many times. They make delicious stuff. I also had them send some meals to my colleague Hayden, a young single dude who could probably use some ready to eat meals. So here's what Hayden had to say.

[B]

I really loved the meals I got. They were super tasty but more importantly, they took me through three minutes to get ready and I'm a busy guy. You know, I got young person things to do like bad open mic comedy or spending $45 on two cocktails at a bar called Fence. I don't have time to cook and thanks to Factor I don't have to. So thank you Factor.

[A]

Thank you, Hayden. Eat [e-mail] 10% 50 off and use code 10% 50 off to get 50% off your first box plus free breakfast for one year. That's code 10% 50 off [e-mail] for 50% off your first box plus Free Breakfast for a year. Get delicious ready to eat meals delivered with Factor. This offer is only valid for new Factor customers with code and qualifying auto renewing subscription purchase. This is the 10% Happier podcast. I'm Dan Harris. Hello my fellow suffering beings. How we doing today? We're going to talk about how to handle it with. The voice in your head is an. The ego can be a hatchery of all sorts of nasty beasts. Self criticism, self aggrandizement, shame, desire, distraction, rage. I could go on, but the real question is what do you do about it? My guests today are meditation teachers, also close friends personally Seben A. Selassie and Jeff Warren. Seb is the author of a book called you'd Belong. Jeff and I co authored a book called Meditation for Fidgety Skeptics. Jeff is also the co host of a podcast called the mindbod Adventure Pod. In this conversation we talk about how to handle the voice in your head, how to relate to sticky stories and emotions, how to face unpleasant feelings. We talk about a Buddhist list called the Five Hindrances. Those are the five main problems that tend to arise in meditation and how to deal with them. We talk about the potential pitfalls of a good sit, the role of what's called right effort in meditation, how hard should you try, how expectations make us suffer, neurodivergence, working with shame, and how shame differs from wise remorse and the connection between dancing and the Dharma and why I am often too self conscious to dance. This conversation was recorded live at the annual Meditation Party retreat that Jeff, Zeb and I co host. We've got another one coming up at the end of October, October 24th through 26th at the Omega Institute in Upstate New York. You can sign [e-mail] I will put a link in the show notes two other things to say before we jump in. As you may know, paying subscribers over at Dan Harris get guided meditations that come along with every episode. Today's companion meditation Meditation is all about the value of spiritual friendship, having friends who also meditate, how powerful it is to do this stuff in the HOV lane. It comes from our Teacher of the Month, the wonderful Kyra Jewel lingo. If you sign up, you will get it in your inbox. Second thing to say, Starting next week on September 2nd, all of our paid subscribers will be able to meditate live on video with me and or with the Teacher of the Month on Tuesday afternoons at 4 Eastern. We've been doing live guided meditations for a while, but now we're going to do them weekly and at a set time, Tuesday afternoon at 4 Eastern. That's the plan indefinitely. Our Teacher of the Month in September is going to be Vinnie Ferraro, who's amazing. The September 2nd event, which again is at 4:00 Eastern, will be both me and Vinnie. As you can see, a big theme that's emerging from all of the words coming out of my face hole during this introduction is community and the power of doing things together. It can sound like an empty cliche, but there's a ton of science to show that when you do something like meditation as a group, either meditate together or just have friends who are also doing this stuff and take this shit seriously, it's incredibly powerful. So that's the theme running through today's episode, running through these live guided meditations that we're gonna now do weekly. So join the party. We'd love to have you part of this thing. Danharris.com okay, we'll get started with 7A and Jeff right after this. This is always kind of a poignant time of year for me. The end of the summer. The summer's winding down. There's that first little bite of cool, crisp air that tells you fall is on the way. But it's also kind of an interesting and invigorating time because you get back to your routine and maybe with a fresh POV on said routine. And as the summer winds down, one way to get back into the routine is to turn to our friends over at Wayfair. From bedding and linens to storage solutions for every room in the house, Wayfair is your one stop shop. Refresh your workspace with desks, bookcases, and office chairs for way less. Or make weeknight dinners a thing again with quality cookware that makes meal time a breeze. My wife just ordered these module bookcases, these kind of translucent module bookcases that she's put up in her workspace in our house because she's buying all of these books as part of her research she's doing for an upcoming book on imposter syndrome. So she's got just tons and tons of books and she's stacked them up in these translucent modular bookcases that she got from Wayfair and it really looked beautiful. But of course, Wayfair's got a huge selection. Not just bookcases. They've got stuff for your living room, they've got stuff for your home study, kitchen essentials, storage for every space, home decor, kids rooms, bedding and bath basics. There's something for every style and every home. No matter what your space is or your budget, get organized, refreshed, and back to the routine for way less. Head to Wayfair.com right now to shop all things home. That's W A Y F A I R.com Wayfair Every style, every home. One of the bigger challenges in my life and in the life of my family is what are we going to eat? And my wife And I are super busy all day long and then the end of the day arrives and we look at each other like, yo, what are we going to do for dinner? It can be a pain and it can be the source of mild conflict. And so one great solution that I have found is Factor. Factor helps me eat smarter with tasty chef prepped meals that are dietitian approved and delivered right to my door. I've eaten these meals many, many times. They are legit delicious. And now with more than 65 weekly meals made for how I live and maybe how you live, I've got more ways to fit in a real meal wherever the day takes me. You can choose from a wide selection of weekly meal options including premium seafood choices like salmon and shrimp at no extra cost. For the first time, you can try Asian inspired meals with bold flavors influenced by China, Thailand and more for more choices to better nutrition. That's why 97% of customers say that Factor helped them live a healthier life. You can feel the difference no matter what your routine is. Like I said, I've tried Factor many times. They make delicious stuff. I also had them send some meals to my colleague Hayden, a young single dude who could probably use some ready to eat meals. So here's what Hayden had to say.

[B]

I really loved the meals I got. They were super tasty. But more importantly, they took me three minutes to get ready. And I'm a busy guy. You know, I got young person things to do like bad open mic comedy or spending $45 on two cocktails at a bar called Fence. I don't have time to cook. Thanks to Factor. I don't have to. So thank you Factor.

[A]

Thank you Hayden. Eat [e-mail] 10% 50 off and use code 10% 50 off to get 50% off your first box plus free breakfast for one year. That's code 10% 50 [e-mail] for 50% off your first box plus free breakfast for a year. Get delicious ready to eat meals delivered with Factor. This offer is only valid for new Factor customers with code and qualifying auto renewing subscription purchase.

[B]

So thoughts and emotions, my friends, where are your thoughts and emotions at right now?

[C]

I was thinking about. I know some people can be really plagued by thoughts and have a lot of pernicious thoughts and I've been there. But thoughts are such like a subtle layer that they're sneaky, very sneaky, like pernicious, little like gnats or something that I find it much easier to work with emotions because they're just so much more pronounced for me. I can feel them in my body and have a relationship to them in a way. Thoughts feel much more ephemeral.

[A]

Slippery little fuckers.

[C]

Yeah, they are.

[A]

There's a nice little practice that Joseph Goldstein talks about when you notice in meditation, thinking is happening just kind of go. Usually for me, at least, I catch.

[B]

It after the fact.

[A]

Go looking for the thought. Just look, see, where is it now? And that for me helps me kind of get my arms around what these things are and are not. And to use his little phrase, they're little more than nothing. And there are these quantum bursts of energy in the mind and they pass through. And then if you go looking for it, it actually a little bit liberating to look and realize that I had this thought, it was a very compelling thought about murdering somebody. And now it's not here anymore, you know, and I'm not re upping it. I can see the insubstantiality of it. And that is really freeing.

[C]

Yeah. And the power of thoughts that you don't do that with exactly that keep coming back and that, you know, some people take those murderous thoughts to extremes.

[A]

I was filming a session recently with Joseph and our mutual friend Sam Harris for Sam's app. And Sam said this thing I thought was perfect and I'm gonna mangle it a little bit. But it was like unexamined thoughts are everything. Everything examined. They're little more than nothing. And that is just such a powerful teacher.

[C]

Yeah, that is it.

[B]

Yeah. No, I mean, this is constantly. So this is my way into actually thinking about working with. This is, if you know the term from neuroscience, affective realism. Anyone know? It's like affective realism is. It's the phenomenon of when you're in a particular emotional state and you see everything through the prism of that state. That. That is the. You're in like a kind of mood tunnel. This is how the world is. Anyone relate to that? Like you're in a slightly bad mood, for example. And then it's like everyone just seems a little bit aggressive. They're a little bit not on your side. You know, things are a little bit crappy in every way up and down the line.

[A]

Shit, colored glasses.

[B]

Shit colored glasses. Yeah. As the famous saying goes, the wearing. Yeah, Shakespeare. Yeah, Shakespeare from the old Saxon. So for me, I'm constantly in my life. And of course, it's the relationship between the thought and the feeling. Right. Like you have a feeling and the feeling of just like, I don't know, being trapped in your life. And then you have these thoughts that go with that feeling of being trapped. And like. And then those thoughts reinforce that feeling of being, of being trapped. It's like all of a sudden you're. This is the sort of cycle in which you're going through your days, your weeks, your months, and you never. Other things can happen in your life, but you never really totally come out of the tunnel. And so for me, the practice is being able to actually be patient enough to begin to see what is the thing, the thing that I'm in. And I find that very, very, very hard because it's not often it's not obvious. It's like a whale that comes up from underneath and you think you're swimming on the open ocean and then all of a sudden this whale comes up and then swallows you up and you're swimming and you're inside the belly of the whale and you think you're in the present and the whale's swimming off this way to like, you know, Panama or something, and you're gone that way. And like, what takes you away?

[A]

I mean, I've heard you use that whale analogy. And it comes up in my own practice a lot. I think about this whale analogy where I do a lot of walking, meditation and, you know, I'll be reasonably mindful of what I'm seeing and the sensations in the body and sounds in the environment. And then I get on some train of thought and then I wake up from it and I realize, yes, for the last five minutes the whale swallowed reality. You know, I was just. I'm not here anymore. And it's. That's never going to stop. Like you're always going to get carried away. So it's taken me 10 or so years to not get upset about getting carried away and to instead get interested. Like, wow, it's so interesting that thoughts. The whale can come along and hijack you so thoroughly. So you are no longer here.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[C]

I would say in a lot of ways the more intense moments in my life have provided kind of that focus in. That makes practice easier and it's the more mundane just being carried away in the busyness of life. That's my challenge, actually. I've sort of hone the skill to work with the challenges more or the intensity more. And I get caught up in the busyness of my life and friends and community and family.

[B]

This is its own whale.

[C]

It is its own whale.

[B]

The compulsive busyness, the urgency to do, do, do.

[C]

So it's not as distressing in some Ways it's not the distress of the emotional challenges, but it has a pernicious quality to it because it's almost like thoughts that just kind of take you away into the nothingness.

[A]

Let's do a little open mic. And this includes folks joining us online and in the room.

[C]

Yeah, we'd love to know what you shared. What's up for you now? We'll open up. Open up the floor.

[A]

Okay. Well, yeah, we've got somebody online. Let's do it. Hey, what's your name?

[C]

My name's Amy.

[A]

Hey, Amy.

[C]

So it's amazing the stories we tell ourselves. And when you've had these stories, thoughts, feelings, for a long time, they uproot and they can be pretty sticky. And so it's just wondering if there's any guidance or direction for working with those bigger trauma pieces, which I know you pendulate. I know you go in, you go out. Is there any guidance around that?

[A]

A little more guidance. Yeah, it's a great question.

[B]

A really good question. Working with the particularly sticky stories that feel like they're just these core narratives in your life, often connected to core wounds and challenges. And how do you get away from those stories? How do you get space around those stories? Yeah.

[C]

Thank you for that question. And I'm sure all of us can relate to some degree, and it's hard to know exactly what each of us are talking about when we're saying kind of stories and trauma. But to me, that points to the fact that meditation is not the only tool. And this is where we bring in therapy, community, other healing modalities and practices to understand what's going on for us. Because we all hold stories and trauma and challenges differently. And for some of us, they show up as panic attacks. For some of us, they show up as re traumatizing energies or events. For some of us, they're just kind of patterns that aren't necessarily really acute in our lives, but keep sort of these waves that take us off course or the whale that kind of is constantly turning us. And. And so depending on what's showing up, we have to kind of understand which tool. So we're not going to use a hammer on a screw and we're not going to try and cut grass, a field of grass with scissors. We really need to understand what's needed in that moment. I'm curious if you're working with really strong feelings or if you were working with stories that were more like thoughts that keep coming up and going away. Yeah, it's more thoughts there. It's like the patterning of these thoughts that just keep coming up. Oh, you know, also, I'll say to myself, okay, so don't go so close, you know, because it almost feels like this wall just comes up again. I am working, you know, with a therapist and have them for a while, which is helpful. And I know that it needs to be done slowly. And so, you know, leaning into yourself and providing that. That friend that you would like to be for yourself is something that really resonates. And at the same time, it's really hard to do that.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Do you find that there are certain practices or techniques that have helped with that? Some people use ifs, which uses parts work, internal family systems. Some people do journaling, dialogic, journaling with themselves. Or talk therapy versus somatic therapy. What have you tried? Yeah, talk therapy. That's been what I've gone to. I feel like it would be helpful to be in a group where there are people that are sharing similar stories. That's not something I've done before. And do you feel like there's a group in terms of, like, similar experiences or a meditation group that you. Yeah, I think a meditation group, because I'm curious. You know, I'm at that point where I can say, yes, I'm ready to dip more than just a little baby tote.

[B]

Yeah, that's great.

[A]

Put a little more.

[C]

A little more in there.

[B]

I mean, I definitely find that the skills of meditation really, really help with this. And they help in different kinds of ways. They help, like, the compassion part of meditation is just such a. You know, when I'm in a story that's an old, old story, like, to be able to draw on that tool, which I didn't have for a long time, is incredible. Like, it can really settle me and stop me from the story from going deeper. It's like I haven't gotten rid of some stories, but I can see when they. I can prevent them from kind of going off the rails just through the act of noticing it's happening and bringing in some compassion and not needing to change it and realizing that everyone's got stories. I've got stories. Of course they're there. So that framing and then I feel like the trickling down of just the equanimity of just the constant accepting yourself, accepting what's here, can soften and loosen that sometimes too. So I have really benefited from specific targeted therapy around certain things, but other times I've just noticed that certain stories, like stories about alienation around my family of origin, for example, it's just kind of. I never did any specific therapy around it. Just through practice, just through accepting, just through compassionate. Just got less authoritative. And that just happened organically through the long, you know, pact. I've been practicing for 20 years and meditation. So I really think that. That it is very supportive for that, too. But it's about being patient for that.

[C]

Process, I think, for the type A personalities.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Kind of thing on your own.

[B]

And you're.

[C]

You know, that. That patience piece is.

[B]

It's hard. Yeah, but you said it, too. Like, chatting, having people to talk about it with, like, community. That's one of these I find so great about. Oh, my gosh. You realize everyone's got their story, everyone's got their thing. And it's like, I get so isolated as a parent, imagining that my kids. Our problems are. No one's ever had the problem of challenging toddlers before. Like, I'm like, I really. I'm a pioneer in this problem. And then I get my. I, like, look around and talk to some parent friends, and I'm like, oh, oh, you're a much worse parent than me. Thank God. But just the human connection of, like, oh, man. Okay, we can do this together. And that is healing, too.

[C]

Yeah. Thank you.

[B]

No, thank you. That's a great. Who can relate to that question? The stories are good. I mean, everybody. Thank you.

[A]

Do we have a question in the room? Okay, got somebody right there.

[C]

It's not really a question. I was just going to share. I did something a little different. I'm Kelly.

[A]

Hi, Kelly.

[C]

Hi. After the morning session, I pretty much spent the entire break balling my head off in my room, and I was like, I don't know what's going on. Who knew coming to a weekend meditation party there'd be so much meditation?

[A]

Wait, is this you guys telling us to change our programming?

[C]

I mean, I thought I was doing pretty well over the past few years, but, like, wow, this is a lot of meditation. This time, I decided to try doing it without closing my eyes, and I looked at the little sliver of trees out there and kept my eyes open the whole time, which I always thought, oh, that's not the real way, or that's not correct or whatever. But I found I could stay instead of having to titrate back out so often by doing that, and I thought that was odd. I actually counted the breath, which I never do, but I tried the 1 to 10, and then again. And I found I could stay longer just with the concentration point without wanting to crawl out of my skin. Like I do a lot of times. So I don't know if that's helpful. That's not a question. But anyway, that is helpful.

[B]

It's good because actually having eyes open is a great way to work with thinking. That's why in a lot of Tibetan practices, it's gaze open, soft gaze, just sense of space and the visual world crowds out as opposed to your eyes closed. It's so much easier to go off into your thinking. So for that exact reason, that's a way in which a lot of people practice and it's super legit to understand that it works for you.

[A]

Yeah. Also just to say, Kelly, you could have had the emotions in your room and then bailed, but you stayed. So.

[C]

I just want to say that's also why walking practice and standing practice can be helpful too. You know, just to. We have this idea that practice has to be full lotus, eyes closed, you know, perfectly still. And that, that's really just, that's a made up idea and it's, it's not the truth. So. So please try all these practices and see how they, they work for you.

[A]

Just to build on that. I know I talk about Joseph Goldstein a lot in doing annual retreats with him. You know, he is really increasingly focused on the walking meditation and not even necessarily the super slow walking, just kind of like a slow. Ish walking. And as Jeff said, that is actually a really great place as your body's moving through space for at least for me to see the, to catch thinking in the act. So, yeah, play with all this stuff and keep coming back. I know we have a gentleman with a mic right there. Yeah. What's your name?

[B]

Hi, my name is Greg.

[A]

Hey, Greg.

[B]

I have a question about home base.

[A]

And then looking at traumatic things, unpleasant things and coming back.

[B]

And.

[A]

Sometimes I wonder if I'm not just trying to push the things away, if I'm trying to stuff unpleasant feelings.

[B]

And I wanted to just ask how.

[A]

Is a good way to know the difference or experience the difference and how to work with that?

[C]

Do you mean by coming back that you're trying to push them away or.

[B]

Yeah, maybe by coming back I'm trying to push them away.

[A]

Like I'm trying to shrug off stuff.

[B]

That it may be worth looking at more. So I offer the going back for when it gets challenging. If there's a lot of motion coming up and it's like, oh gosh, I don't. I need to, like, then it's like, that's the time. It's like, okay, maybe I'll just move over to here. And that might be. You're not trying to quash it down. It's more like you're just shifting the real estate of your attention over to this other thing, trying to let yourself sink into that a little bit. Like, and then when you're feeling a little bit more resource coming back, if it's coming up, but if it's manageable, then you're right. How do you know the movement of what it feels like? I mean, I always say welcome. It's like, welcome to the party. Welcoming it. Like, welcome. Like, as if, like, Lily has a great saying with her when she gets bummed out, depressed. She's like, welcome, queen, my queen. Come, can I make you a space here on this. In this lounge? Lay down, make yourself at home. Like this really, like, really inviting. Like, really and inviting. By being curious. Like, what are you? Where is it? Where is the sensation? Like, how's it changing? Like, really kind of investigating. And the act of investigating is a kind of allowing of it. So there's a quality of kind of turning towards. And often it will expand. It could be like a thing where it expands and then kind of goes down again. But I'm aware of your point. Like, you know, there is a subtlety there. And sometimes, like, sometimes we think, oh, I'm opening to this thing that I really hate. You're like, oh, here I am. Irritation. I'm so open to you. I love you. Irritation, you crappy little irritation thing. I really love you.

[A]

Pain.

[B]

Like, I really want to welcome you into this pain, which you've been. Has been plaguing me for months. Come on. Pain. I love you. Plaguing me for months. Pain. So we're like. In other words, we're a little bit resisting what's here, and we're not really letting it. We're not really welcoming it. And then we get into this whole fight with it. So that's a good. I mean, that's kind of the practice is like, noticing, like, being curious about exactly that line. Like, where is that line for me and am I doing this? And this might be a good opportunity to hand it over to Sebene, who have something else to say.

[C]

Well, it points to what we wanted to talk about now, which was the hindrances. So they're considered to be five hindrances. Craving, aversion, restlessness, sloth, sleepiness, and doubt. And so we can have a multiple hindrance attack and use all of them to try and manage and control our situation. So, yeah, we could have what Jeff was describing sort of like, I love you, I hate you, I love you, I hate you. Or we could be thinking that we're being sneaky, like, I'll love you, so you'll go away. I'll be with this back pain, so it'll stop. And so it's about understanding our own system and seeing what kind of tension or reactivity is there and softening that. So it's not about managing it or controlling it or bringing any more tightness to it, but really softening and seeing how much we can let things be and really allow. And so slowing down helps a lot. You know, this idea of like, oh, something's up. I'm not with it. Let's go back to the breath. Let's go back to home base. If there's any sort of reactivity quickness happening, if I can just slow things down and be, as Jeff was saying earlier, get a little closer to what's happening, become even a little more intimate with it. If it's not excruciatingly painful physically or emotionally, can I just be with this? Can I be with it a little longer? Can I allow this? So bringing that kindness. I sometimes use two phrases. What's happening right now? And can I allow this? What's happening right now? Oh, okay, there's fear. Can I allow it? Can I have a little bit more space? So that ease, as Martin Luther King Jr. Said, Peace is not the destination. Peace is the way. So bringing that peacefulness, that allowing attitude to exactly what we're looking at is the practice. I don't know if I said this. Oh, and I said it to you, Jeff, that many, many years ago, I noticed that creative and reactive are the same word. The sea just moves. And I was like, oh, what's the C? And there's so many C words. Connection, calm, consciousness, clarity, compassion of employing all of those, courage. But I never noticed until the ride up here that the R moves. You know, I hadn't thought of it that way. And the R, it's not like reactivity at the front. It's really relaxed, you know, and receptive. So that's really the move we're making. Instead of this reactive, like, let me fix it. Let me do something. It's this relaxing, sitting back and allowing what's happening and then making the choice to bring our attention back to home base or stay with whatever is difficult from that place, that's less speedy and sort of amped up with vigilance.

[A]

Just to say, embedded in your question is a lot of mindfulness. That you're even aware that you may be threading aversion into your alleged mindfulness. That is a lot of interest. The opposite of delusion. So I think you deserve more credit than you might be giving yourself side of the room. If somebody over here. Yeah. Gillian, hi.

[C]

I guess I would just like you.

[A]

To comment on what I'm going to share that I was very curious about. I was sharing with Jeff at the break that this morning I had a lot of. And yesterday a lot of the message.

[C]

Of I'm not good enough and tears.

[A]

And a lot of crap. And then this afternoon I had a. What somebody talked about labeling and I had a beautiful meditation. I didn't have any of that. In fact, I had memories of two beloved people. One in 1995 and 2015, both died in my arms. I had no pain, I had no tears. And I wasn't avoiding it either. I was with it.

[C]

I was. And so what I'm curious about is the juxtaposition between this morning and this afternoon.

[A]

One of my people outside wondered if.

[C]

It was because we had meditated a long time this morning.

[A]

But like, how can I conjure that up? Because I would rather have this afternoon. The first hindrance is craving, right? So the fucked up thing about meditation is it's like a video game where you can't move forward if you want to move forward. So you have to be in this open receptive mode. And so, yeah, you can be in bliss. And then you could be, as my friend Sam says, on the top of Mount Shame within an afternoon. And I think the only sane way to view it is they're all just passing mind states. It's meteorology. It's not something you want to strive for or cling to. I sometimes say to myself on meditation retreats, if I'm suffering, there's something I'm not mindful of. And if you can be mindful of even the shitty morning sit and all the stories, there's actually not much pain in it. I don't know where did I go wrong in that?

[B]

No worries. Awesome. I was just thinking that progress in meditation, it's very mysterious. It's kind of non linear. It's like two steps forward, one step back, three steps to the side, and then this weird detour over here and then something. It's like watching the northern lights, the way they move. But having said that, there is a tendency over time for more healing. And I feel like that's you're touching on that experience is something that is a core, very important. Part of why we practice which. And there's different words for it. And sometimes in the contemplative scene, they talk about purification, which always sounds kind of creepy and religious to me, like involves like chains or something. But it's real. It's the more. And it has to do with the equanimity. My teacher used to talk about having a complete experience. If you can have a complete experience with something. So an experience of some of deep sadness, an experience of your breath, but you're present, you're settled, you're concentrated, you're clear, and you're fully equanimous with it. Then it's like the neurons fire, but they don't wire. There's no buildup. There's in fact the opposite. Not only do you not create a new reactivity around it, you start to metabolize old patterns and there's a sense of things clearing out and. And all of a sudden there's this real sense of kind of peace or sacredness or this big, open, intimate space that allows us to be with more and more. And that is the direction that practice takes us. That's very real. So that's a very. And it's just that it can't be bottled and chugged on command. You don't get a choice in when it's going to. When those experiences are happening or when. But practice makes you. It's like the old adage, like awakening is always an accident and meditation makes you accident prone. You know, the more you practice, the more those things are part. I mean, I have those experiences quite often.

[C]

And can I just say again, it's our relationship to what's happening. So the emotions can be arising. The grief. Grief is not bad. Grief is a sign that we've loved, you know, Definitely. And so you can go to awake or sit shiva or in Amaric, we call it luxo and have these amazing experiences of deep, deep sadness and then deep joy because everybody's telling jokes about the dead person, you know, and it's. It's amazing to have that kind of like extremes and not even an afternoon in the space of 10 minutes. And it's the. It's the breadth of human experience and all of it is human, but our relationship to it is. We can make it problematic. And the hindrances. I love what you said, Dan. Like if you're suffering, then you're not mindful because the hindrances are unconscious reactivity to our life. Yes, but it's not that. So craving is basically like a reactive grabbing at it's. Not like we don't choose in our life. We choose things. We choose them consciously and creatively without reactivity. Aversion is an unconscious, like turning away from something. But we can turn away from things in our lives, like, consciously and creatively. So all of the hindrances have their intelligence to them. Doubt has skepticism. We can be discerning without just dismissing everything that we don't understand or don't like. And restlessness. We can be excited about things, but not in a way that is not conscious and just agitated all the time. And, you know, we can get rest, but we don't need to numb out because we don't want to pay attention. There's something that we don't want to see. So there's sort of a conscious way we can relate to our life, and then there's an unconscious, reactive way that we just sort of have habituated.

[A]

I can't remember if I told this story last time, but apropos of Gilian's enjoyment of a pleasant sit in the afternoon that I was on a retreat with just a couple of friends a couple of years ago, maybe four years ago, me and two friends, and we had a teacher with us. It was during the pandemic, so the retreat centers weren't open. And one of my friends is very experienced meditator, and he's this tall German guy with a booming Darth Vader kind of voice. And the other is a little bit newer to meditation. And we had a teacher with us, and at some point we were all talking about our practice. And the newer meditator, Josh, was rhapsodizing, but had this incredible sit in the morning. And the German guy, out of nowhere, just didn't even lift his head and just said, you will never experience that again.

[B]

But you might.

[A]

It's a verbal version of slamming somebody with a stick. We have a question online. Let's go there. Hey.

[B]

Hi, guys.

[A]

I'm Ben. Hey, Ben.

[B]

I'm from New York City. I really appreciate the time this weekend, and especially this container has felt very potent. I appreciate the invitation to welcome such gripping and sneaky and elusive objects of meditation, like emotions and thoughts. I think for a long time I would use meditation as a way to bypass, as has been said, quite a bit, I would bypass negative feelings. And I wanted to ask you guys about thoughts because emotions feel far more accessible, right? You can welcome irritability, the energetic wash of irritability. And you can feel, you can neutralize it. It can turn to pleasure when you stop labeling it as Negative, the resistance. When that subsides, you kind of can dive into an ocean of a different color of experience, which I find very hopeful, I guess. But with thoughts, the mechanics don't make sense to me because I oftentimes get lost in them. I don't know how to explore a thought without the whale swallowing me. I don't know how to explore a thought without just another thought. And then you're in that fun house. And I was just curious how I can certainly bypass my thoughts with the practice, but I was curious how you use it to actually explore them.

[C]

We were talking about this, Jeff and I, and as I mentioned before, I find it hard to work with thoughts in a way exactly as you described, Ben. And that was really eloquent the way you laid that out. And so I often just kind of label them and drop them if it's possible, if they're not pernicious kind of returning things. But then they're usually attached to an emotion or something that's bubbling up. And so I just ask, is this useful? Like, I'm here again, and it is. Sometimes it's just the seesaw in the most gentle way I can without rejecting them. You know, just kind of drop the thought. And I don't know how else to say it except the classical teachings use the language of is this wholesome or unwholesome? You're basically just categorizing your thoughts over and over again. That language doesn't really work for me. Wholesome and unwholesome. It feels antiquated and sort of religiously judgmental. But useful and not useful is helpful for me. And that categorization. I'm not a big noter labeler, but with thoughts that just keep coming, that seems like the best way. Besides just watching them pass. If the same thought is coming up, then I'm like, this is not useful. Let me change the channel. Let me go to my breath. How to do that without the reactivity we were just describing is just this subtle practice of knowing your own system. But I'd love to hear what Jeff and Dan have to say.

[B]

I mean, I love all of that. And I mean, I find it's just. It's very hard working with thoughts. And it's easier when you're more settled. Things are just a little more. Still more settled. Then you're more likely to see it. But for me, what's made the difference is my teacher, Shinzen has a way to work with thoughts where see in, feel in, hear in. It's very specific and very Targeted. And then you literally start by. And often I teach this. Start by closing your eyes and visualizing a teddy bear. Where do you see? You can try this. All right, now let's close our eyes for a moment and visualize a teddy bear. Where do you see the teddy bear? Is there a teddy bear? More on the right side of your visual space, more on the left, the center. Is it very clear or is it super washed out? Is it more. The idea of a teddy bear, is it not even spatial? Is it that you're. So that's like you can begin to kind of get clear about image space, like how images appear to you, which is one form of thinking. And so there's a practice around getting clearer with that. And then the next thing is the same with inner talk. You say to yourself in your head, you say, teddy bear. You can try it right now. This sounds ridiculous. You close your eyes, you say. Don't just say it. Yell teddy bear inside your own head. There, wherever you heard, could, heard teddy bear is at least one place. Try it again. Where you hear a thought. And so often in that exact space, there is talking. Talking. You don't even realize it's there until you tune into the frequency. It's not just there, other places too, but you can actually. And then feel is just sort of like a body, emotional body sensation. And so those three are constantly pinging off each other. They're in relationship, going around, around, and they're responding, they're reactive, they're responding to sounds and things happening in the world. And so you can close your eyes and you could track image, talk, feel, and just track that you can develop. I've developed so much clarity around my thinking process through that. So that's a specific way in. It's not a traditional kind of. It's a more good example of a more contemporary technique from a really ingenious Buddhist teacher. So that would be another suggestion if you like working with thoughts. Yeah, thank you.

[C]

And Dan, you said something earlier about how to.

[A]

Yeah. There's a trio of. Of things that came to mind from Joseph I'll continue to steal from him. One is just as I said earlier, just this move of just investigating what is a thought. You had the thought, you're now awake. And so you have this decision which of course is a little bit thought based. So it's sticky but to look for that last thought and there's nothing to find. And that it's again, another case of in the not finding is the finding two other little Joseph isms that are helpful for me at least. And you should just play with it and see what works for you is one is, especially with repetitive, intrusive thoughts, dead end. And you really want to make sure it's not coming from a hostile place. But just like it's a version of is this useful Dead end. And then another is up and out. Up and out. You know, just, I don't need to get entangled with this. It's up and out. So, yeah, our job is to make a menu for you and then you can pick what you want to order.

[B]

Oh, that's very helpful. Thank you.

[C]

Thank you.

[A]

Coming up, Seb and Jeff talk about how to be with your thoughts as opposed to bypassing them. We talk about some of my favorite Josephisms expressions I got from Joseph Goldstein. We introduce a new teacher into the mix, a guy who's super, super interesting, Aaron Schultz. And we talk about dancing as a practice. And we drill down into why dancing is so uncomfortable. For me, one of the bigger challenges in my life and in the life of my family is what are we going to eat? My wife and I are super busy all day long and then the end of the day arrives and we look at each other like, yo, what are we going to do for dinner? It can be a pain and it can be the source of mild conflict. And so one great solution that I have found is factor. Factor helps me eat smarter with tasty chef prepped meals that are dietitian approved and delivered right to my door. I've eaten these meals many, many times. They are legit delicious. And now with more than 65 weekly meals made for how I live and maybe how you live, I've got more ways to fit in a real meal wherever the day takes me. You can choose from a wide selection of weekly meal options, including premium seafood choices like salmon and shrimp at no extra cost. For the first time, you can try Asian inspired meals with bold flavors influenced by China, Thailand and more. From more choices to better nutrition. That's why 97% of customers say that fact factor help them live a healthier life. You can feel the difference no matter what your routine is. Like I said, I've tried factor many times. They make delicious stuff. I also had them send some meals to my colleague Hayden, a young single dude who could probably use some ready to eat meals. So here's what Hayden had to say.

[B]

I really loved the meals I got. They were super tasty. But more importantly, they took me three minutes to get ready and I'm a busy guy. You know, I got young persons things to do like bad open mic comedy or spending $45 on two cocktails at a bar called Fence. I don't have time to cook and thanks to Factor I don't have to. So thank you Factor.

[A]

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[C]

So we should shift gears now because.

[B]

We have a special guest we're going to introduce.

[C]

We want to bring up Aaron Schulz.

[B]

Hey Aaron, Welcome.

[A]

Hey buddy.

[B]

This is for you. Good to see you.

[C]

I don't know how many of you saw that Aaron got added to this party. He's a longtime friend of mine. I've known him for about 1212 years and a deep Dharma practitioner. That's how I met him. When I met him, he was doing deep Jhana studies, concentration, practice. He's been a devoted student of devotional practices. He's a devotee of Kuan Yin, the Bodhisattva of compassion, has done multiple pilgrimages to Taiwan, China, Nepal, India. So just a really, really deep practitioner. But in his day life, in his day job, he is one of the most popular and active DJs in Brooklyn and also the co owner of two record labels, Legendary record labels, Bastard Jazz and Wonder Wheel, and plays a really incredible eclectic variety of music. Funk, jazz, acid jazz, house, soul, R and B, world music. He's the producer of one of my favorite bands, Alsara and the New Batones, which he took me to go see live. And yeah, we're just really, really honored and delighted to have him here. Thank you for being here.

[A]

Yeah, thank you.

[C]

He's also for this party and the last party lent us some of his music. So the music that you hear in between sessions is all from Aaron's two Record labels.

[B]

So thanks so much for having me. I'm so happy to be here with you, Seb and Dan and Jeff.

[C]

Yeah, thank you.

[A]

What a pleasure.

[C]

And as a DJ for over 25 years.

[B]

Yeah, maybe more.

[C]

Wow. DJing around the world. Every time I ask Aaron, you know, hey, how's it going? Oh, I'm in Japan, I'm in Ibiza, I'm in. He's DJed in some amazing places. And you've witnessed a lot of people dancing or not dancing. So we wanted to bring him up for this conversation around what does it mean to dance as a practice and dance as part of life, and why so many of us are uncomfortable with it. Why it brings up a lot of the hindrances, aversion, doubt, immediate sloth and torpor or restlessness. Like to get out of here and get away.

[B]

Totally.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Well, you know, I'll start just by saying this was a conversation you and I had, Seb, recently, that was just kind of like when we talked about this, I was like, whoa. All of our ancestors, no matter who we are, where we come from, I'm somehow half Saudi and half Polish, which, I don't know, like, I might be the only one, but both sides of my background use dance. Everybody in this room, your ancestors used dance to connect to freedom.

[C]

And not even that long ago, like in the 50s, everybody danced. Yeah, you know, it's pretty recent that people have become so uncomfortable with dance. Why have you noticed that, you guys?

[B]

Well, I noticed that people are uncomfortable with dance. Yeah, I mean, I know. I think it's. I always. This is one thing we want to kind of get at. Like, I find it to be such a fertile ground for tracking and noticing self consciousness, you know, about feeling safe in groups and the norms that we put on ourselves. And because I was like that, you know, when I first started going out to dance parties and things, I was very self conscious, you know, and I would just, you know, I'd prefer to kind of more be in the background and see what was going on. And if I had to put my finger on what it was, I guess I just felt like I would be judged or like I wasn't good at it. And I was going to be. Because I wasn't good at it. I was going to be judged. And it was also in a self conscious space. It wasn't like a space of like, it was all young people. It was a particular. There was a kind of energy of like, you know, being cool or something like that. And those were the things I was carrying with me. And I didn't have an experience growing up of being with family dancing and having some tradition that made it okay, you know, So I don't know. I'm just curious for other people too. Like, why is it that, you know, eventually I got over it because I just started spending more and more time there and I would do my. And eventually. Now I really love dancing. But I mean, what about you? What's your experience?

[A]

I'm self conscious.

[B]

Yeah. And so you want to drill into that a little bit.

[A]

Great.

[B]

Ask me to do a stand up and just give us a dance performance. And we'll be very, very quiet. We'll just be like.

[A]

Every time I dance around my son, he's like, daddy, stop, you're embarrassing. Which I get it. Yeah. It's a lifelong thing. Like, I envy people who have that can unlock and dance. I think it's awesome.

[B]

What are you self conscious about?

[A]

I think exactly what you said. People are gonna judge me. I'm judging myself. I'm doing it bad, doing it wrong.

[B]

Exactly that.

[C]

I think everyone has the capacity to dance. But it's really interesting with you, Dan, because you're a drummer. I know. And you have an excellent sense of rhythm and you're a good dancer. I've seen you dance. So it's not coming from like, you know, I'm not. I don't know how to do this. I don't know how to find the beat, which can be a challenge. Right. So it's something else that's happening for you.

[B]

Is it? You're afraid to unleash your raw masculinity on the world. Is it too powerful?

[A]

Right. So masculine. I can't even take a pill. That's virility. You know, maybe there's stuff around really getting the role the mask of anchorman in my molecules in some way. That's 30 years of doing that.

[C]

Eyes on you kind of.

[A]

I think there's probably some of that. But I. But I've played drums and I mean around people and been totally comfortable. I feel a mastery of that. Like, not that I'm that good, but like, I've been doing it since I was 10. And so I. I really do feel like I know what I'm doing. Dancing, I don't do that often.

[C]

Aaron, what have you noticed, like, also culturally, because you DJ in so many different cultures and spaces and probably not Saudi Arabia.

[B]

No. Although the Saudi Arabia thing is happening, but I'm not participating in it.

[A]

Oh, yeah.

[B]

You know, one of the things that I was just gonna point out is, you know, so many of us have such inhibitions to dance. Like we're so self conscious, we think the whole room is watching us, you know, but we can actually pay attention when we're on the dance floor. And we can use our practice to really be in that moment. And what are we paying attention to when we're on the dance floor? Are we looking at everybody else and being like they're a bad dancer? No, we're thinking that everybody else is looking at us, you know, so if we can kind of, you know, my dharma teacher, Guo Gu, he says this all the time. He says your brain has never stepped 1 millimeter outside of your skull. So it's a great reminder that all of these inhibitions, all of these, all this self consciousness that's going on, we're on the dance floor that's just coming up because of causes and conditions inside our own minds. This is our minds that are creating this. This isn't how reality actually is.

[A]

Totally.

[B]

So we can notice that. I do the daily trip on common. One of my favorite ones is this one slow dance. And I got this idea from years of doing parties, like we'd merge meditation and dance parties. And what was happening very naturally is people were coming in, like myself, who were feeling very self conscious around dance. And slow dance is an invitation basically to try to notice your own self consciousness and actually dance with it. And so I want to kind of unpack what I meant by that because it's something I think we might try to play around with tonight. For those who are interested in exploring, When I say notice your self consciousness, like you can kind of do this right now. You can imagine if you like, if you like, you can close your eyes for this for a second and you can imagine that everyone is looking at you. Imagine or not, maybe that's a little overwhelming. Just imagine someone nearby is kind of looking at you. And what do you notice about your experience when that happens? Imagine somebody's looking at you or you imagine yourself giving a public talk suddenly and everyone's looking at you. For me, there's a sudden sense of more fullness in my face. I feel my face more. I feel more sensation in my face, like flushed. I often have a visual of myself. If I think I'm being looked at, I'm actually looking at myself, imagining what I think they're seeing. I have sensation in my body, maybe a feeling of a little bit of excitability or nervousness in my chest maybe. So you let that go for a Second, I don't want to make people uncomfortable. So when I say dance with your own self consciousness, what I mean is you can become aware of where in your experience you're experiencing self consciousness. Where is the. Is it feeling around the face? Is it here? And you can actually begin to kind of like play with that because that's the locus of what's self conscious. You can decide to kind of move around it and kind of play with it or notice it or. That's what I mean by kind of dance with it. And because what we're doing in a meditation practice is we're continually backing out of whatever tunnel or thing that we've collapsed into in order to find a bit more space. So there's a practice around moving with or dancing with the actual feeling of self consciousness itself that is worth exploring. Do you see what I mean? You're able to connect to any of that.

[A]

Absolutely.

[B]

And there are other ways to make it okay. So there's that way. But another way is just like, you just go up there and act like an idiot, and you do it so fearlessly and so that everyone else around you suddenly feels.

[C]

Gets.

[B]

They give. They have permission to do that yourself. So I.

[C]

What's the name for that? It's like the Jeff Warren message.

[B]

Basically, you create the bar so low that absolutely everyone is able to limbo. Just step right over it.

[A]

That's a service. Yeah, it really is.

[B]

Yeah, absolutely.

[A]

Public service.

[B]

It does something. It's like there's something about that is in this teaching here about there's something about that that makes it okay. You.

[A]

Coming up, Seb, Jeff, Aaron and I talk about the role of right effort in meditation. How hard should you try in meditation? We talk about the suffering that comes with expectations. Neurodivergence. A helpful piece of feedback that we got from the audience for future meditation parties and how to work with shame and the difference between shame and wise remorse. One of the bigger challenges in my life and in the life of my family is, what are we gonna eat? My wife and I are super busy all day long, and then the end of the day arrives and we look at each other like, yo, what are we gonna do for dinner? It can be a pain, and it can be the source of mild conflict. And so one great solution that I have found is fact factor. Factor helps me eat smarter with tasty chef prepped meals that are dietitian approved and delivered right to my door. I've eaten these meals many, many times. They are legit delicious. And now with more than 65 weekly meals made for how I live and maybe how you live. I've got more ways to fit in a real meal wherever the day takes me. You can choose from a wide selection of weekly meal options including premium seafood choices like salmon and shrimp at no extra cost. For the first time, you can try Asian inspired meals with bold flavors influenced by China, Thailand and more for more choices to better nutrition. That's why 97% of customers say that Factor helped them live a healthier life. You can feel the difference no matter what your routine is. Like I said, I've tried Factor many times. They make delicious stuff. I also had them send some meals to my colleague Hayden, a young single dude who could probably use some ready to eat meals. So here's what Hayden had to say.

[B]

I really loved the meals I got. They were super tasty, but more importantly, they took me three minutes to get ready and I'm a busy guy. You know, I got young person things to do like bad open mic comedy or spending $45 on two cocktails at a bar called Fence. I don't have time to cook and thanks to Factor, I don't have to. So thank you Factor.

[A]

Thank you Hayden. Eat [e-mail] 10% 50 off and use code 10% 50 off to get 50% off your first box plus free breakfast for one year. That's code 10% 50 [e-mail] for 50 off your first box plus free Breakfast for a year. Get delicious ready to eat meals delivered with Factor. This offer is only valid for new Factor customers with code and qualifying auto renewing subscription purchase. I just got back from my annual 10 day silent meditation retreat which I do with Joseph Goldstein up at the Insight Meditation Society, which is in central Massachusetts. This year the cottages were where I stay were booked up for the first part of my retreat date. So I actually got an Airbnb in town nearby and it was a super successful easy experience. I found a place that was perfect. My friend and I were staying there together. During the retreat the host and I messaged back and forth. She was incredibly kind. The house is called the Purple Rooster with super idiosyncratic and perfect for a retreat. I think the neighbors, when they saw us doing hours and hours of walking meditation, might have thought we were a little weird. But anyway, just another example of why I love Airbnb. It's super easy to use their app to find the right place for you and then you can chat directly with the host. And this was definitely the case at The Purple Rooster. And if you think about it, there are really two opportunities here. It's great to stay in an Airbnb when you're traveling. And your home could go on Airbnb. You've put a lot of time and attention into making your home comfortable. So why not host your home on Airbnb while you're traveling? Your home might be worth more than you think. Find out how [e-mail] host what?

[C]

As a DJ, what have you noticed, like, helps that self consciousness or. I mean, I'm sure you've substances. Yeah. Okay.

[A]

Besides, I got you right away.

[B]

All I had to say was.

[C]

But from your end, like, what are you doing exactly to.

[B]

Well, you know, I'm not a big talker when I dj. That's not something I normally do. But I think kind of just getting people into a groove, like, you know, it helps when the lights are low. It helps when there's a smoke machine. You know, it helps when, like, people, you know, have this kind of cloud around them that they think that nobody else is watching them. So, like, and I think just getting into a groove with the music and, you know, people kind of dropping their inhibitions, you know, and then. And for me, dance is freedom. It's an expression of freedom.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And just to connect it to the Dharma. In the lineage I practice in, we believe that.

[A]

What lineage is that?

[B]

I practice in Chan. Chan. Yeah. Which is the Chinese precursor to Zen. In the lineage I practice in, we believe that everybody is inherently free. There's nothing out there to get. You're already enlightened. And we meditate to uncover that. We meditate to get in touch with that. And for me, dance is an expression of that freedom that we all have inside of us. Dance is an expression of that Buddha nature, that freedom, that freeness. I totally agree. And I've been thinking a lot about connecting dance and Dharma, so I'm. Yeah, that really kind of does it for me.

[A]

It's totally fascinating to hear you talk about that connection. And I'm thinking a little bit about my wife. She had gone through a tough period in her life and was just starting to, like, she was leaving her job as a doctor and had to gone through some tough family stuff and was just trying to get into some version of self care. I don't love that term. And I dragged her one day to Soul Cycle, which is, you know, like, you can say what you want about SoulCycle, but what they do really well is turn the lights down. And she was in the back. I Remember, I was in the second row, and she was like, I'm going the back row. Nobody can see me. And she had a big experience and started doing it every day, sometimes twice a day, you know, until she blew out her knees, you know. But that being in a dark, dark space where you can't be judged, but you also have the freedom to move your body and to music. And with music, you've done it with you. Yeah. And so there's a lot here.

[B]

Yeah. I mean, we've all heard the old adage, dance, like no one's watching.

[A]

Right.

[B]

But do we actually embody that when we're dancing? Do we actually kind of have that top of mind, you know, that's so important? And there's a movement out in the world right now called ecstatic dance. And it's just. And you all know this. Yeah. And it's just that it's about being in a comfortable space and really dropping your inhibitions and allowing that freedom to flow through your movements totally. And that's a way to work with practice, too. It's like that's the kind of the externalized, expressive, cathartic side. Like the internal equivalent of welcoming your emotions and having equanimity and letting it pass is expressing your emotions, you know, not acting them out on someone, but just letting it out, like screaming for glee. That's the kind of release that you get. But, you know, I mean, just also to say we're talking about dancing, but we're also not talking about dancing. We're talking about our sense of limitations, the sense, the ideas of what we think we can do and what we can't do and what the fruit of this practice really is, which is more freedom. It is more liberation, more sense of possibility, and being able to move in more areas of our life in more kinds of contexts and more kinds of situations. So, I mean, I think that's the real story of what we're talking about here. And. And so I feel like dance is just one example or one place. Pushing yourself to come to a meditation retreat is pushing your limits. You know, pushing yourself to be in a conversation, in a pot of three, when that's not necessarily your jam is like, you know, it's about exploring what it might be like to be in this new place and feel the edges of where that contraction is. And can I dance with that?

[C]

You know, and, you know, to also acknowledge that it's not for everyone. Just like we. We also haven't touched in the power of music and sound, which doesn't Play a lot into this form of meditation, but is happening a lot out in the world. A bigger understanding of the power of sound. You know, sound healing, sound meditations. And there's more and more research, a lot of scientific research on the healing power, the vibratory power of sound.

[B]

I mean, one of my favorite meditation practices is contemplation of sound. And this is where you sit and you just listen without naming things. And that's entirely possible to do with music, too. To not conceptualize what this music actually is. Just be with what's happening, just to listen, not name it. Don't put a concept on it. Beautiful.

[A]

It's music.

[B]

It's the universal connector.

[C]

Yeah. Are there any questions or comments? Anyone?

[A]

Got somebody in the back here? What's your name?

[C]

Hey there. I'm Caitlin.

[A]

Hey, Caitlin.

[C]

I'm curious about right effort.

[A]

It's a big one.

[C]

It's been my question for each meditation, actually, because I've found myself super disappointed in how I'm feeling in these meditations. I feel like I'm just starting to feel the positive impact of three years of practice. And I just found forms of practice that are way more wiggly and adaptive to how fucking ADHD I am. And I now am finding, like, I put down these practices where I have to be more still. And I came back and they're not where I put them. I'm like, sitting in this space like, oh, no, I'm too feral now. And I hear friends of mine who are way further along in their practices. They're like teachers and awesome, and they're kind of in the branches of their trees doing all these weirder wiggly ways. And I'm feeling really good out there, but I kind of feel like I don't have the trunk. And I can't tell if it's the voice of, you have to be less to be enough. That's been so much part of my ADHD experience that I can't really tell which voice I'm supposed to listen to when it comes to right effort. Because it's also in the military. So all the fucking effort is the right effort. And so that experience of when do you know when you're coming up to your edge and you're being intellectually honest with yourself about, here's where I can pull back and preserve, or here is my invitation to learn more, Because I feel like at my vibration, there's probably so much more growth and learning in the stillness than there is and being the feral bitch I am. But there's the actual Learning of the medicine and adapting. Anyway, so it's the same question and then the same thing now with dancing is how do you learn when you're being self protective? Well, where you're kind of like copping out a little bit. Yeah, it's like right effort and judgment of self, I guess. Kind of like in one.

[A]

Well, I'm going to defer a little bit to Jeff as our resident expert in adhd. But the one thing I just hear right off the top and I'm not in your head, so I'm just guessing and I'm projecting, honestly, the one thing I hear is potentially the suffering that can come from expectations which are the worst thing you can bring to the meditation party because. And it's not your fault we all do it, it's very natural. But if you're expecting a certain flavor of sits or some sort of performance on the cushion, it's just fucked from the jump. Right. Because you wanting to control reality instead of being settled back and receiving whatever's happening. So the measure of a quality Sid is not the experience, it's are you awake for whatever the experience is. So if you can just reframe it. And believe me, I mean, I haven't even been meditating that long, maybe 15 years. But 15 years in, I'm still messing this up all the time. I need to be reminded over and over again. So I think I'm hearing that in what you're saying. So I want to maybe offer you that reminder if it's useful.

[C]

Yeah, that's useful.

[B]

Yeah. Actually, I think that's a really great point and I think I can build on that a tiny bit just because of the adhd, because I have adhd. And the trunk of practice is not sitting in stillness. The trunk is whether you're being present. It's the accepting that this is what's happening, renunciating the thought and coming back to this chosen thing to be with. And in life, there's always going to be something that's going to overwhelm your capacity to stay still. There's going to be physical pain, discomfort. In the case of adhd, just this incredible buoyancy and amount of energy coming through. So there's a place to sit in that and accept that that's happening. And then there's a place to decide, okay, that's enough now. I need to move so often for ADHD folks, I suggest more of a movement practice anyway. You know, I do more. I spend more time doing a movement practice than I do doing practice in Stillness, whether it's yoga, swimming, whether it's Qigong, whether it's, you know, I love. And it's like the principles move at the speed of awareness, like tracking. And I'm being present with what's happening in my body, and I need to move, and I like to move. Or I'm dancing, and I think that's perfectly fine. Because the skills. We're not building up a capacity to sit in stillness. We're building up a capacity to be present with what's here. So you gotta work with how you're wired. So I say go hang out in the edges of the trees there, you know, and make some monkey sounds. Cause that sounds pretty fun to me.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. I saw a hand go up. What's your name? Marin. Hey, Marin.

[C]

Hi. It's great to be here.

[A]

Thanks for coming.

[C]

Two things, just building on the person who was speaking before, when we were outside, I was saying, this is the first time I've been meditating for. I could tell you, like, January 2, 2023. Like, I remember the day I started with your app, but I have never meditated sitting down. I lie down, I walk, I do the dishes. I'm very adhd, so I really love Jeff, but I've never, you know, meditated just sitting down. And I was really nervous about that coming here. I do still have to stand up, and it helps me. It doesn't. I feel like it helps me, you know, stay with it.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

But what I was really wanting to talk about is dance. And a totally different. I have a totally different take on how people can be comfortable dancing and why people oftentimes don't feel comfortable. And I think it's the pressure of exactly what you guys are talking about. Like, you are expressing yourself.

[A]

It's freedom.

[C]

It's like, these are very lofty ideas. But I think when we talk about all of our ancestors dance, and I'm just making this up now, but they.

[A]

Weren'T doing free expression.

[C]

I think they were learning the steps and the moves of their traditions. So it was really about collective movement. Right.

[A]

And so you're not out there on your own going like, ooh, I gotta.

[C]

Come up with something original, you know.

[A]

Like, I really gotta express my own uniqueness, you know?

[C]

So I think for next time, maybe what you could do is hire someone who gets up there and says, we're gonna do put on Beyonce and we're.

[A]

Gonna do, like, a line dance.

[C]

We're all gonna learn it. Or, like, square dancing or two step.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Brilliant, by the way.

[C]

So Anyway, that's my idea. All right, that's such a good point. Yeah, thank you. And we actually said exactly that, you know, that people learn their folk dances.

[B]

People are welcome to do a conga line tonight. Like, you are more than welcome to get a conga line going.

[A]

Can you play the Macarena?

[B]

I don't have it, unfortunately. Dan.

[A]

We have somebody online now. Hello?

[C]

Hey, this is Melissa.

[A]

Hey, Melissa.

[C]

So I wanted to. This is something Dan, you referenced, and Jeff, you referenced earlier.

[A]

I also have.

[C]

I have three boys, and the eldest, who's 16, is neurodivergent. So only thing better than two boys is three boys. And what you, Jeff, specifically hit on something and you went past it, which is shame.

[A]

And so, you know, you were talking.

[C]

About, you know, you're dealing with the kids and you sort of feel something and you're sort of okay. And then, you know, you react essentially. Right. And then obviously it eventually dies down. And to me, the shame is excruciating. And it's like, listen, these kids, they're like, on to the next thing.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

You know, none of them are like, oh, my God, mom is horrible. She hates us. She's a whatever.

[B]

Right.

[C]

They're on to the next thing. And I am in. In the shame.

[A]

Right.

[C]

And. And you know, it's coming, and you see it, and it leaves scar tissue for me. And, you know, my. Again, he's my eldest, who's neurodivergent, is 16, almost 17. Like, I've been at this for a long time, and, man, I know lots of hacks and lots of tricks, and.

[A]

This is what has brought me here.

[C]

But, man, that shame is real and I don't know how to deal with it.

[B]

Yeah. My trauma therapist says if there's shame, there's trauma. That the worst things I feel or to harm myself or to harm somebody else, you know, are the most shameful things I feel. The most violent impulses, you know, bring up the most shame. So, like, that's specifically what we work with in our trauma sessions. And in the moment, what I do is self compassion, because I have the same tendency. Like, I do something or I just act like an idiot, and I'm just so there it comes, you know, And I just do. Now I catch it earlier and earlier it's like, okay, buddy, I try to treat myself exactly how I treat my boys. You know, I see that little guy in there who's just trying to do the best he can and had a lot of hardship when he was younger, and it's like. Like, I do that again and again and again. And the more I've done it, the faster that response happens. And I do that with this. They're sort of trying to understand the origins of the shame through the trauma work. And I don't know a better answer than that. That's where I'm at. But I'd be curious what other people say or what you would say, but I feel you.

[C]

Yeah, it's really helpful. Thank you.

[A]

I think it's useful sometimes to think about. I mean, I. I definitely ladled lots of shame into my own neural pathways over the years, and I think it's maybe useful sometimes, at least for me to think about the difference between shame slash guilt and what the Buddhists call wise remorse. So shame or guilt is kind of making it about yourself. And again, I'm not saying that with no judgment, because I do it. I've done plenty of that, and I'm sure we'll continue. But wise remorse is like, all right, looking at what maybe you did wrong and trying to make amends for it, trying to learn from it. But the shame is a kind of psychic constipation that just like nothing can happen. And, you know, playing with that, seeing if you can move from one state to the other, that's been. And I think self compassion is a great way to. To do that, because self compassion isn't like babying yourself and pretending you didn't make a mistake. It's recognizing you made a mistake, but you're not holistically horrible for having made that mistake.

[C]

Yeah. They say, like, remorse is I did something terrible and shame is I am terrible.

[B]

Exactly. Shame is useless.

[C]

Right. Right.

[B]

Thank you so much. Shame is not true. There is never a time, there's never a case ever in which you are bad. You're not allowed to be who you are like that. You don't deserve to exist. Shame has nothing useful in it. I'm sorry. It's toxic. It's not like guilt, where I did something wrong and, okay, I can make amends. And I know that shame is I am someone wrong fundamentally, just by existing. So it's a great signal to work with because it's very persistent and it can be healed.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

And the other piece of it, this is all really helpful, is modeling that self compassion for my boys.

[A]

Huge.

[B]

Yes.

[C]

I mean, literally, my son just walked through. He's like, you're doing a meditation retreat. What are you talking about? For six hours, I was like, trust me, it is to your benefit that I'm doing this for six hours.

[A]

Thank you all. Yeah, thank you. Great question. That was awesome. Thank you. Thanks again to Jeff and Seb and also Aaron. Awesome time with those guys. Don't forget we've got another meditation party coming up at the end of October so you can come and have that experience for yourself. You can sign [e-mail] or there's a link in the show notes if you want to click it and join us. Love to see you there. Also, don't forget, speaking of community and the power of the HOV lane for meditation practice starting on September 2nd, I will be doing, or we will be doing live guided meditations on video at 4:00 Eastern every Tuesday afternoon indefinitely. On September 2nd in the kickoff of our now weekly sessions, I'll be with Vinnie Ferraro to who's going an amazing meditation teacher and will be our Teacher of the Month for September. Meaning he will be crafting guided meditations that go along with all of our Monday Wednesday episodes. All of this only available to paying [e-mail] great way to support me. Great way to support our team. Great way to support meditation teachers who we like to pay generously. So we'd appreciate your support. And if you can't afford it, just send us a note. We'll give it to you for free. Finally, I just want to thank everybody who work so hard on this show. Our producers are Tara Anderson, Caroline Keenan and Eleanor Vasily. Our recording and engineering is handled by the great folks over at Pod People. Lauren Smith is our managing producer, Marissa Schneiderman is our senior producer, DJ Cashmir is our executive producer, and Nick Thorburn of the band Islands wrote our theme.