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How To Handle Toxic Thoughts | Sebene Selassie and Jeff Warren - 10% Happier with Dan Harris | Wave AI Podcast Notes

How To Handle Toxic Thoughts | Sebene Selassie and Jeff Warren

Wed Aug 27 2025

What to do when the voice in your head is an asshole. is an author and meditation teacher. She writes the popular newsletter and her first book is called, . is an author and meditation teacher. He writes the popular newsletter ...

Summary

Podcast Summary: How To Handle Toxic Thoughts | Sebene Selassie and Jeff Warren

10% Happier with Dan Harris
Date: August 27, 2025

Episode Overview

In this episode of 10% Happier, Dan Harris speaks with meditation teachers—and close friends—Sebene Selassie and Jeff Warren. The lively, candid discussion, recorded live at their annual Meditation Party retreat, centers around the challenges of managing “toxic thoughts” and difficult emotions. The trio explores how the voice in our head can torment us, the interplay between thoughts and emotions, the role of community, practical Buddhist wisdom for working with hindrances in practice, and why dancing is such a vulnerable, liberating, and awkward experience. The episode also features DJ and Dharma practitioner Aaron Schulz, who brings fresh insight into dance, self-consciousness, and personal freedom.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The “Voice in Your Head” and Its Mischief (10:05–12:10)

Slippery Nature of Thoughts:
- Dan Harris describes thoughts as "slippery little fuckers" (10:42), noting how easily we’re carried away by mental chatter.
- Sebene Selassie finds emotions more tangible than thoughts, which she likens to "sneaky, pernicious gnats" (10:12–10:44), highlighting their ephemeral quality.
- Joseph Goldstein’s advice: when you’re aware you’re thinking, "just look for the thought," which exposes their insubstantiality.
Quote [Dan, 11:00]:
"To use his little phrase, they're little more than nothing...they’re these quantum bursts of energy in the mind and they pass through."
The Power of Examination:
- Harris shares a teaching from Sam Harris (via Joseph Goldstein): “Unexamined, thoughts are everything. Everything examined, they're little more than nothing.” (11:47)

2. Emotional States, “Affective Realism,” and the Whale Analogy (12:11–15:23)

Affective Realism:
- Jeff Warren explains how moods and emotions color all perception, trapping us in “mood tunnels” (12:11–12:45).
- The interplay of thoughts and feelings creates stubborn cycles: "You have a feeling…then those thoughts reinforce that feeling…you never really totally come out of the tunnel" (12:46–13:55).
- The “whale” analogy: losing awareness is like being “swallowed by a whale” and only noticing when you “wake up” on the other side (13:55–14:42).
Practice Advice:
- It’s natural to get lost in thoughts—curiosity, not frustration, is a better response.
- Selassie notes that intense emotions can actually foster focus, while she’s more prone to “busyness whale” that swallows attention in daily life (14:43–15:23).

3. Working with Sticky, Trauma-Based Thoughts and Stories (15:54–22:13)

Dealing with Core Wounds:
- Audience question (Amy): How to work with sticky stories rooted in trauma.
- Selassie: Meditation is "not the only tool"; therapy, community, and a variety of practices are vital (16:47–18:48).
- Quote [Selassie, 17:26]:
  "We’re not going to use a hammer on a screw...we really need to understand what's needed in that moment."
Compassion and Community:
- Warren advocates for self-compassion and patience, noting that some stories soften simply through “acceptance” over years of practice (19:45–21:10).
Group Support:
- The healing power of connecting with others who share struggles: “Oh, man. Okay, we can do this together. And that is healing, too.” (21:21)

4. Practical Meditation Adjustments & Modalities (22:17–25:15)

Experimenting with Practice Styles:
- Kelly shares how keeping her eyes open during meditation worked better for her, defying her idea of the “correct” way to meditate (22:17–23:39).
- Jeff Warren notes that open-eyed practice is common in Tibetan traditions and can crowd out thoughts (23:39–24:01).
- Selassie recommends alternatives like standing or walking meditation, reinforcing that "perfectly still, eyes closed" is a myth (24:15–24:38).
- Harris highlights the value of walking meditation for catching thoughts “in the act” (24:38).

5. Managing Difficult Emotions without Avoidance (25:13–31:07)

The “Home Base” Question:
- Greg wonders if retreating to “home base” (e.g., breath) is avoidance.
- Warren and Selassie distinguish between skillful shifting attention (for overwhelm) and subtle avoidance of feelings (25:34–28:10).
- Turning towards challenging sensations with curiosity and acceptance (not “I’ll be with this pain so it’ll go away”) is key (28:10–31:07).
- Quote [Selassie, 28:10]:
  "It's not about managing it or controlling it or bringing any more tightness…but really softening and seeing how much we can let things be and really allow."
Practical Phrases:
- Selassie often asks: “What’s happening right now? Can I allow this?” (28:10)

6. The Five Hindrances and Skillful Responses (31:28–37:37)

Selassie introduces the Five Hindrances (craving, aversion, restlessness, sloth/sleepiness, doubt) and their role in practice (28:10–37:37).
Discussion: Hindrances aren’t “bad”; they represent reactive patterns. There are creative, conscious ways to respond to challenges, and the spiritual work lies in noticing and softening reactivity.

7. Mysteries of Progress and “Good Sits” (32:28–38:34)

Nonlinear Progress:
- Warren calls meditation progress “mysterious…like two steps forward, one step back,” and likens it to the “northern lights” (33:39).
- Complete, equanimous experiences clear old patterns; but “you can’t bottle and chug [these] on command” (33:39–35:42).
Impermanence:
- Harris relays the story: After a friend rhapsodizes about a perfect sit, another friend replies, “You will never experience that again,” reminding us not to cling to special experiences (38:32).

8. Working Directly with Thoughts in Meditation (40:10–44:55)

Labeling and Usefulness:
- Selassie drops unhelpful thoughts, questions their usefulness, and shifts attention as needed (40:10).
Contemporary Methods:
- Warren shares Shinzen Young’s modalities: see-in (images), hear-in (internal talk), feel-in (emotions)—developing clarity about types of thinking (41:42).
Joseph Goldstein’s Cues:
- “Dead end” and “up and out”—quick self-reminders to disengage from ruminative, intrusive thoughts (43:51).

9. Dancing, Self-Consciousness, and Dharma with Aaron Schulz (48:17–68:14)

Introducing Aaron Schulz (DJ & Dharma Teacher):
- Schulz blends deep devotional practice and nightlife, shaping music’s role as personal and spiritual liberation (48:24–49:53).
Dancing as Spiritual Practice:
- Discussion of self-consciousness, cultural norms, and the vulnerability of dancing—mirroring challenges on the meditation cushion (51:02–55:56).
- Quote [Schulz, 64:16]:
  “In the lineage I practice in, we believe that everybody is inherently free. There’s nothing out there to get. You’re already enlightened...for me, dance is an expression of that freedom that we all have inside of us.”
Practical Tips to Overcome Inhibition:
- Lowering “the bar” of embarrassment so everyone relaxes (58:19–58:47).
- Noticing how self-consciousness feels in the body, “dancing with” these sensations (55:56–58:19).
- Collective movement: why group dances or line dances might be more accessible than freeform movement (74:22–75:10).

10. Right Effort, Neurodivergence, and Trusting Your Path (68:23–74:03)

Right Effort & Expectations:
- Audience members ask about balancing effort, self-judgment, and adapting practices to neurodivergence (ADHD).
- Harris: “If you’re expecting a certain flavor of sits or some sort of performance on the cushion, it’s just fucked from the jump” (70:40).
- Warren: “The trunk of practice is not sitting in stillness. The trunk is whether you’re being present” (73:48).
- Movement practices are valid, especially for those with ADHD; adapt practice to your wiring and value presence over method.

11. Shame vs. Wise Remorse (75:39–80:43)

Audience member Melissa asks about dealing with shame as a parent.
Warren: “My trauma therapist says if there’s shame, there’s trauma.”
Harris distinguishes between shame (“I am terrible”) and wise remorse (“I did something terrible”), supporting self-compassion as the antidote.
Quote [Warren, 79:42]:
"Shame is useless. Shame is not true. There is never a case ever in which you are bad...shame has nothing useful in it.”

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

The Insubstantiality of Thought:
"In the not finding is the finding." —Dan Harris (43:51)
Whale Analogy:
"For the last five minutes, the whale swallowed reality...That’s never going to stop...I no longer get upset about getting carried away and instead get interested." —Dan Harris (13:55–14:42)
Shit-colored Glasses:
"Shit-colored glasses." —Jeff Warren, on affective realism (12:45)
On Community:
"Chatting, having people to talk about it with, like, community. That’s one of the things I find so great..." —Jeff Warren (21:21)
On Practice Freedom:
"You have to work with how you’re wired." —Jeff Warren (73:48)

Timestamps for Key Segments

10:05 – Slippery Nature of Thoughts
12:11 – Emotional “Mood Tunnels” & Whale Analogy
15:54 – Sticky Stories & Trauma
22:17 – Adjusting Meditation for Personal Needs
25:13 – Home Base vs. Avoidance
28:10 – Five Hindrances Explained
32:28 – The Mystery of Progress in Meditation
38:32 – Letting Go of “Perfect” Sits
40:10 – Working with Thoughts: Labeling, Dropping, Shinzen Young’s Techniques
48:17 – Introduction of Special Guest DJ Aaron Schulz
51:02 – Dancing and Spirituality
68:23 – Right Effort, ADHD, and Making Practice Your Own
75:39 – Shame, Trauma, and Wise Remorse

Takeaways

Handling Toxic Thoughts:
Meet thoughts with curiosity and investigation, not aversion.
Emotional Patterns:
Recognize the cycles between thoughts and feelings—see how moods shape perception.
Working with Trauma:
Use a mix of tools: meditation, therapy, community. Healing is patient work.
Adapting Practice:
The form matters less than the presence you bring—explore walking, standing, moving, or dancing meditation as valid paths.
Right Effort:
Don’t judge your practice by “performance” or sit quality. The practice is simply being with what is.
Shame vs. Remorse:
Move from shame (“I am bad”) to wise remorse (“I did something unskillful”) using self-compassion.
Collective Practice:
Community, vulnerability, and collective movement (including dancing!) are powerful antidotes to loneliness and self-judgment.

For more:

Live guided meditations and community events at danharris.com
Meditation Party retreat info at eomega.org

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Transcript

A (0:00)

One of the bigger challenges in my life and in the life of my family is what are we going to eat? My wife and I are super busy all day long and then the end of the day arrives and we look at each other like, yo, what are we going to do for dinner? It can be a pain and it can be the source of mild conflict. And so one great solution that I have found is Factor. Factor helps me eat smarter with tasty chef prepped meals that are dietitian approved and delivered right to my door. I've eaten these meals many, many times. They are legit delicious. And now with more than 65 weekly meals made for how I live and maybe how you live, I've got more ways to fit in a real meal wherever the day takes me. You can choose from a wide selection of weekly meal options including premium seafood choices like salmon and shrimp at no extra cost. For the first time, you can try Asian inspired meals with bold flavors influenced by China, Thailand and more for more choices to better nutrition. That's why 97% of customers say that Factor helped them live a healthier life. You can feel the difference no matter what your routine is. Like I said, I've tried Factor many times. They make delicious stuff. I also had them send some meals to my colleague Hayden, a young single dude who could probably use some ready to eat meals. So here's what Hayden had to say.

B (1:23)

I really loved the meals I got. They were super tasty but more importantly, they took me through three minutes to get ready and I'm a busy guy. You know, I got young person things to do like bad open mic comedy or spending $45 on two cocktails at a bar called Fence. I don't have time to cook and thanks to Factor I don't have to. So thank you Factor.

A (1:46)

Thank you, Hayden. Eat smart@factormeals.com 10% 50 off and use code 10% 50 off to get 50% off your first box plus free breakfast for one year. That's code 10% 50 off ff@factormeals.com for 50% off your first box plus Free Breakfast for a year. Get delicious ready to eat meals delivered with Factor. This offer is only valid for new Factor customers with code and qualifying auto renewing subscription purchase. This is the 10% Happier podcast. I'm Dan Harris. Hello my fellow suffering beings. How we doing today? We're going to talk about how to handle it with. The voice in your head is an. The ego can be a hatchery of all sorts of nasty beasts. Self criticism, self aggrandizement, shame, desire, distraction, rage. I could go on, but the real question is what do you do about it? My guests today are meditation teachers, also close friends personally Seben A. Selassie and Jeff Warren. Seb is the author of a book called you'd Belong. Jeff and I co authored a book called Meditation for Fidgety Skeptics. Jeff is also the co host of a podcast called the mindbod Adventure Pod. In this conversation we talk about how to handle the voice in your head, how to relate to sticky stories and emotions, how to face unpleasant feelings. We talk about a Buddhist list called the Five Hindrances. Those are the five main problems that tend to arise in meditation and how to deal with them. We talk about the potential pitfalls of a good sit, the role of what's called right effort in meditation, how hard should you try, how expectations make us suffer, neurodivergence, working with shame, and how shame differs from wise remorse and the connection between dancing and the Dharma and why I am often too self conscious to dance. This conversation was recorded live at the annual Meditation Party retreat that Jeff, Zeb and I co host. We've got another one coming up at the end of October, October 24th through 26th at the Omega Institute in Upstate New York. You can sign up@eomega.org I will put a link in the show notes two other things to say before we jump in. As you may know, paying subscribers over at Dan Harris get guided meditations that come along with every episode. Today's companion meditation Meditation is all about the value of spiritual friendship, having friends who also meditate, how powerful it is to do this stuff in the HOV lane. It comes from our Teacher of the Month, the wonderful Kyra Jewel lingo. If you sign up, you will get it in your inbox. Second thing to say, Starting next week on September 2nd, all of our paid subscribers will be able to meditate live on video with me and or with the Teacher of the Month on Tuesday afternoons at 4 Eastern. We've been doing live guided meditations for a while, but now we're going to do them weekly and at a set time, Tuesday afternoon at 4 Eastern. That's the plan indefinitely. Our Teacher of the Month in September is going to be Vinnie Ferraro, who's amazing. The September 2nd event, which again is at 4:00 Eastern, will be both me and Vinnie. As you can see, a big theme that's emerging from all of the words coming out of my face hole during this introduction is community and the power of doing things together. It can sound like an empty cliche, but there's a ton of science to show that when you do something like meditation as a group, either meditate together or just have friends who are also doing this stuff and take this shit seriously, it's incredibly powerful. So that's the theme running through today's episode, running through these live guided meditations that we're gonna now do weekly. So join the party. We'd love to have you part of this thing. Danharris.com okay, we'll get started with 7A and Jeff right after this. This is always kind of a poignant time of year for me. The end of the summer. The summer's winding down. There's that first little bite of cool, crisp air that tells you fall is on the way. But it's also kind of an interesting and invigorating time because you get back to your routine and maybe with a fresh POV on said routine. And as the summer winds down, one way to get back into the routine is to turn to our friends over at Wayfair. From bedding and linens to storage solutions for every room in the house, Wayfair is your one stop shop. Refresh your workspace with desks, bookcases, and office chairs for way less. Or make weeknight dinners a thing again with quality cookware that makes meal time a breeze. My wife just ordered these module bookcases, these kind of translucent module bookcases that she's put up in her workspace in our house because she's buying all of these books as part of her research she's doing for an upcoming book on imposter syndrome. So she's got just tons and tons of books and she's stacked them up in these translucent modular bookcases that she got from Wayfair and it really looked beautiful. But of course, Wayfair's got a huge selection. Not just bookcases. They've got stuff for your living room, they've got stuff for your home study, kitchen essentials, storage for every space, home decor, kids rooms, bedding and bath basics. There's something for every style and every home. No matter what your space is or your budget, get organized, refreshed, and back to the routine for way less. Head to Wayfair.com right now to shop all things home. That's W A Y F A I R.com Wayfair Every style, every home. One of the bigger challenges in my life and in the life of my family is what are we going to eat? And my wife And I are super busy all day long and then the end of the day arrives and we look at each other like, yo, what are we going to do for dinner? It can be a pain and it can be the source of mild conflict. And so one great solution that I have found is Factor. Factor helps me eat smarter with tasty chef prepped meals that are dietitian approved and delivered right to my door. I've eaten these meals many, many times. They are legit delicious. And now with more than 65 weekly meals made for how I live and maybe how you live, I've got more ways to fit in a real meal wherever the day takes me. You can choose from a wide selection of weekly meal options including premium seafood choices like salmon and shrimp at no extra cost. For the first time, you can try Asian inspired meals with bold flavors influenced by China, Thailand and more for more choices to better nutrition. That's why 97% of customers say that Factor helped them live a healthier life. You can feel the difference no matter what your routine is. Like I said, I've tried Factor many times. They make delicious stuff. I also had them send some meals to my colleague Hayden, a young single dude who could probably use some ready to eat meals. So here's what Hayden had to say.

C (28:10)

Well, it points to what we wanted to talk about now, which was the hindrances. So they're considered to be five hindrances. Craving, aversion, restlessness, sloth, sleepiness, and doubt. And so we can have a multiple hindrance attack and use all of them to try and manage and control our situation. So, yeah, we could have what Jeff was describing sort of like, I love you, I hate you, I love you, I hate you. Or we could be thinking that we're being sneaky, like, I'll love you, so you'll go away. I'll be with this back pain, so it'll stop. And so it's about understanding our own system and seeing what kind of tension or reactivity is there and softening that. So it's not about managing it or controlling it or bringing any more tightness to it, but really softening and seeing how much we can let things be and really allow. And so slowing down helps a lot. You know, this idea of like, oh, something's up. I'm not with it. Let's go back to the breath. Let's go back to home base. If there's any sort of reactivity quickness happening, if I can just slow things down and be, as Jeff was saying earlier, get a little closer to what's happening, become even a little more intimate with it. If it's not excruciatingly painful physically or emotionally, can I just be with this? Can I be with it a little longer? Can I allow this? So bringing that kindness. I sometimes use two phrases. What's happening right now? And can I allow this? What's happening right now? Oh, okay, there's fear. Can I allow it? Can I have a little bit more space? So that ease, as Martin Luther King Jr. Said, Peace is not the destination. Peace is the way. So bringing that peacefulness, that allowing attitude to exactly what we're looking at is the practice. I don't know if I said this. Oh, and I said it to you, Jeff, that many, many years ago, I noticed that creative and reactive are the same word. The sea just moves. And I was like, oh, what's the C? And there's so many C words. Connection, calm, consciousness, clarity, compassion of employing all of those, courage. But I never noticed until the ride up here that the R moves. You know, I hadn't thought of it that way. And the R, it's not like reactivity at the front. It's really relaxed, you know, and receptive. So that's really the move we're making. Instead of this reactive, like, let me fix it. Let me do something. It's this relaxing, sitting back and allowing what's happening and then making the choice to bring our attention back to home base or stay with whatever is difficult from that place, that's less speedy and sort of amped up with vigilance.

B (41:42)

I mean, I love all of that. And I mean, I find it's just. It's very hard working with thoughts. And it's easier when you're more settled. Things are just a little more. Still more settled. Then you're more likely to see it. But for me, what's made the difference is my teacher, Shinzen has a way to work with thoughts where see in, feel in, hear in. It's very specific and very Targeted. And then you literally start by. And often I teach this. Start by closing your eyes and visualizing a teddy bear. Where do you see? You can try this. All right, now let's close our eyes for a moment and visualize a teddy bear. Where do you see the teddy bear? Is there a teddy bear? More on the right side of your visual space, more on the left, the center. Is it very clear or is it super washed out? Is it more. The idea of a teddy bear, is it not even spatial? Is it that you're. So that's like you can begin to kind of get clear about image space, like how images appear to you, which is one form of thinking. And so there's a practice around getting clearer with that. And then the next thing is the same with inner talk. You say to yourself in your head, you say, teddy bear. You can try it right now. This sounds ridiculous. You close your eyes, you say. Don't just say it. Yell teddy bear inside your own head. There, wherever you heard, could, heard teddy bear is at least one place. Try it again. Where you hear a thought. And so often in that exact space, there is talking. Talking. You don't even realize it's there until you tune into the frequency. It's not just there, other places too, but you can actually. And then feel is just sort of like a body, emotional body sensation. And so those three are constantly pinging off each other. They're in relationship, going around, around, and they're responding, they're reactive, they're responding to sounds and things happening in the world. And so you can close your eyes and you could track image, talk, feel, and just track that you can develop. I've developed so much clarity around my thinking process through that. So that's a specific way in. It's not a traditional kind of. It's a more good example of a more contemporary technique from a really ingenious Buddhist teacher. So that would be another suggestion if you like working with thoughts. Yeah, thank you.

B (55:56)

So we can notice that. I do the daily trip on common. One of my favorite ones is this one slow dance. And I got this idea from years of doing parties, like we'd merge meditation and dance parties. And what was happening very naturally is people were coming in, like myself, who were feeling very self conscious around dance. And slow dance is an invitation basically to try to notice your own self consciousness and actually dance with it. And so I want to kind of unpack what I meant by that because it's something I think we might try to play around with tonight. For those who are interested in exploring, When I say notice your self consciousness, like you can kind of do this right now. You can imagine if you like, if you like, you can close your eyes for this for a second and you can imagine that everyone is looking at you. Imagine or not, maybe that's a little overwhelming. Just imagine someone nearby is kind of looking at you. And what do you notice about your experience when that happens? Imagine somebody's looking at you or you imagine yourself giving a public talk suddenly and everyone's looking at you. For me, there's a sudden sense of more fullness in my face. I feel my face more. I feel more sensation in my face, like flushed. I often have a visual of myself. If I think I'm being looked at, I'm actually looking at myself, imagining what I think they're seeing. I have sensation in my body, maybe a feeling of a little bit of excitability or nervousness in my chest maybe. So you let that go for a Second, I don't want to make people uncomfortable. So when I say dance with your own self consciousness, what I mean is you can become aware of where in your experience you're experiencing self consciousness. Where is the. Is it feeling around the face? Is it here? And you can actually begin to kind of like play with that because that's the locus of what's self conscious. You can decide to kind of move around it and kind of play with it or notice it or. That's what I mean by kind of dance with it. And because what we're doing in a meditation practice is we're continually backing out of whatever tunnel or thing that we've collapsed into in order to find a bit more space. So there's a practice around moving with or dancing with the actual feeling of self consciousness itself that is worth exploring. Do you see what I mean? You're able to connect to any of that.