Podcast Summary: How To Handle Toxic Thoughts | Sebene Selassie and Jeff Warren

10% Happier with Dan Harris
Date: August 27, 2025

Episode Overview

In this episode of 10% Happier, Dan Harris speaks with meditation teachers—and close friends—Sebene Selassie and Jeff Warren. The lively, candid discussion, recorded live at their annual Meditation Party retreat, centers around the challenges of managing “toxic thoughts” and difficult emotions. The trio explores how the voice in our head can torment us, the interplay between thoughts and emotions, the role of community, practical Buddhist wisdom for working with hindrances in practice, and why dancing is such a vulnerable, liberating, and awkward experience. The episode also features DJ and Dharma practitioner Aaron Schulz, who brings fresh insight into dance, self-consciousness, and personal freedom.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The “Voice in Your Head” and Its Mischief (10:05–12:10)

• Slippery Nature of Thoughts:

  • Dan Harris describes thoughts as "slippery little fuckers" (10:42), noting how easily we’re carried away by mental chatter.
  • Sebene Selassie finds emotions more tangible than thoughts, which she likens to "sneaky, pernicious gnats" (10:12–10:44), highlighting their ephemeral quality.
  • Joseph Goldstein’s advice: when you’re aware you’re thinking, "just look for the thought," which exposes their insubstantiality.

• Quote [Dan, 11:00]:
  "To use his little phrase, they're little more than nothing...they’re these quantum bursts of energy in the mind and they pass through."

• The Power of Examination:

  • Harris shares a teaching from Sam Harris (via Joseph Goldstein): “Unexamined, thoughts are everything. Everything examined, they're little more than nothing.” (11:47)

2. Emotional States, “Affective Realism,” and the Whale Analogy (12:11–15:23)

• Affective Realism:
  • Jeff Warren explains how moods and emotions color all perception, trapping us in “mood tunnels” (12:11–12:45).
  • The interplay of thoughts and feelings creates stubborn cycles: "You have a feeling…then those thoughts reinforce that feeling…you never really totally come out of the tunnel" (12:46–13:55).
  • The “whale” analogy: losing awareness is like being “swallowed by a whale” and only noticing when you “wake up” on the other side (13:55–14:42).
• Practice Advice:
  • It’s natural to get lost in thoughts—curiosity, not frustration, is a better response.
  • Selassie notes that intense emotions can actually foster focus, while she’s more prone to “busyness whale” that swallows attention in daily life (14:43–15:23).

3. Working with Sticky, Trauma-Based Thoughts and Stories (15:54–22:13)

• Dealing with Core Wounds:
  • Audience question (Amy): How to work with sticky stories rooted in trauma.
  • Selassie: Meditation is "not the only tool"; therapy, community, and a variety of practices are vital (16:47–18:48).
  • Quote [Selassie, 17:26]:
    "We’re not going to use a hammer on a screw...we really need to understand what's needed in that moment."
• Compassion and Community:
  • Warren advocates for self-compassion and patience, noting that some stories soften simply through “acceptance” over years of practice (19:45–21:10).
• Group Support:
  • The healing power of connecting with others who share struggles: “Oh, man. Okay, we can do this together. And that is healing, too.” (21:21)

4. Practical Meditation Adjustments & Modalities (22:17–25:15)

• Experimenting with Practice Styles:
  • Kelly shares how keeping her eyes open during meditation worked better for her, defying her idea of the “correct” way to meditate (22:17–23:39).
  • Jeff Warren notes that open-eyed practice is common in Tibetan traditions and can crowd out thoughts (23:39–24:01).
  • Selassie recommends alternatives like standing or walking meditation, reinforcing that "perfectly still, eyes closed" is a myth (24:15–24:38).
  • Harris highlights the value of walking meditation for catching thoughts “in the act” (24:38).

5. Managing Difficult Emotions without Avoidance (25:13–31:07)

• The “Home Base” Question:

  • Greg wonders if retreating to “home base” (e.g., breath) is avoidance.
  • Warren and Selassie distinguish between skillful shifting attention (for overwhelm) and subtle avoidance of feelings (25:34–28:10).
  • Turning towards challenging sensations with curiosity and acceptance (not “I’ll be with this pain so it’ll go away”) is key (28:10–31:07).
  • Quote [Selassie, 28:10]:
    "It's not about managing it or controlling it or bringing any more tightness…but really softening and seeing how much we can let things be and really allow."

• Practical Phrases:

  • Selassie often asks: “What’s happening right now? Can I allow this?” (28:10)

6. The Five Hindrances and Skillful Responses (31:28–37:37)

• Selassie introduces the Five Hindrances (craving, aversion, restlessness, sloth/sleepiness, doubt) and their role in practice (28:10–37:37).
• Discussion: Hindrances aren’t “bad”; they represent reactive patterns. There are creative, conscious ways to respond to challenges, and the spiritual work lies in noticing and softening reactivity.

7. Mysteries of Progress and “Good Sits” (32:28–38:34)

• Nonlinear Progress:
  • Warren calls meditation progress “mysterious…like two steps forward, one step back,” and likens it to the “northern lights” (33:39).
  • Complete, equanimous experiences clear old patterns; but “you can’t bottle and chug [these] on command” (33:39–35:42).
• Impermanence:
  • Harris relays the story: After a friend rhapsodizes about a perfect sit, another friend replies, “You will never experience that again,” reminding us not to cling to special experiences (38:32).

8. Working Directly with Thoughts in Meditation (40:10–44:55)

• Labeling and Usefulness:
  • Selassie drops unhelpful thoughts, questions their usefulness, and shifts attention as needed (40:10).
• Contemporary Methods:
  • Warren shares Shinzen Young’s modalities: see-in (images), hear-in (internal talk), feel-in (emotions)—developing clarity about types of thinking (41:42).
• Joseph Goldstein’s Cues:
  • “Dead end” and “up and out”—quick self-reminders to disengage from ruminative, intrusive thoughts (43:51).

9. Dancing, Self-Consciousness, and Dharma with Aaron Schulz (48:17–68:14)

• Introducing Aaron Schulz (DJ & Dharma Teacher):
  • Schulz blends deep devotional practice and nightlife, shaping music’s role as personal and spiritual liberation (48:24–49:53).
• Dancing as Spiritual Practice:
  • Discussion of self-consciousness, cultural norms, and the vulnerability of dancing—mirroring challenges on the meditation cushion (51:02–55:56).
  • Quote [Schulz, 64:16]:
    “In the lineage I practice in, we believe that everybody is inherently free. There’s nothing out there to get. You’re already enlightened...for me, dance is an expression of that freedom that we all have inside of us.”
• Practical Tips to Overcome Inhibition:
  • Lowering “the bar” of embarrassment so everyone relaxes (58:19–58:47).
  • Noticing how self-consciousness feels in the body, “dancing with” these sensations (55:56–58:19).
  • Collective movement: why group dances or line dances might be more accessible than freeform movement (74:22–75:10).

10. Right Effort, Neurodivergence, and Trusting Your Path (68:23–74:03)

• Right Effort & Expectations:
  • Audience members ask about balancing effort, self-judgment, and adapting practices to neurodivergence (ADHD).
  • Harris: “If you’re expecting a certain flavor of sits or some sort of performance on the cushion, it’s just fucked from the jump” (70:40).
  • Warren: “The trunk of practice is not sitting in stillness. The trunk is whether you’re being present” (73:48).
  • Movement practices are valid, especially for those with ADHD; adapt practice to your wiring and value presence over method.

11. Shame vs. Wise Remorse (75:39–80:43)

• Audience member Melissa asks about dealing with shame as a parent.
• Warren: “My trauma therapist says if there’s shame, there’s trauma.”
• Harris distinguishes between shame (“I am terrible”) and wise remorse (“I did something terrible”), supporting self-compassion as the antidote.
• Quote [Warren, 79:42]:
  "Shame is useless. Shame is not true. There is never a case ever in which you are bad...shame has nothing useful in it.”

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• The Insubstantiality of Thought:
  "In the not finding is the finding." —Dan Harris (43:51)
• Whale Analogy:
  "For the last five minutes, the whale swallowed reality...That’s never going to stop...I no longer get upset about getting carried away and instead get interested." —Dan Harris (13:55–14:42)
• Shit-colored Glasses:
  "Shit-colored glasses." —Jeff Warren, on affective realism (12:45)
• On Community:
  "Chatting, having people to talk about it with, like, community. That’s one of the things I find so great..." —Jeff Warren (21:21)
• On Practice Freedom:
  "You have to work with how you’re wired." —Jeff Warren (73:48)

Timestamps for Key Segments

• 10:05 – Slippery Nature of Thoughts
• 12:11 – Emotional “Mood Tunnels” & Whale Analogy
• 15:54 – Sticky Stories & Trauma
• 22:17 – Adjusting Meditation for Personal Needs
• 25:13 – Home Base vs. Avoidance
• 28:10 – Five Hindrances Explained
• 32:28 – The Mystery of Progress in Meditation
• 38:32 – Letting Go of “Perfect” Sits
• 40:10 – Working with Thoughts: Labeling, Dropping, Shinzen Young’s Techniques
• 48:17 – Introduction of Special Guest DJ Aaron Schulz
• 51:02 – Dancing and Spirituality
• 68:23 – Right Effort, ADHD, and Making Practice Your Own
• 75:39 – Shame, Trauma, and Wise Remorse

Takeaways

• Handling Toxic Thoughts:
  Meet thoughts with curiosity and investigation, not aversion.
• Emotional Patterns:
  Recognize the cycles between thoughts and feelings—see how moods shape perception.
• Working with Trauma:
  Use a mix of tools: meditation, therapy, community. Healing is patient work.
• Adapting Practice:
  The form matters less than the presence you bring—explore walking, standing, moving, or dancing meditation as valid paths.
• Right Effort:
  Don’t judge your practice by “performance” or sit quality. The practice is simply being with what is.
• Shame vs. Remorse:
  Move from shame (“I am bad”) to wise remorse (“I did something unskillful”) using self-compassion.
• Collective Practice:
  Community, vulnerability, and collective movement (including dancing!) are powerful antidotes to loneliness and self-judgment.

For more:

• Live guided meditations and community events at danharris.com
• Meditation Party retreat info at eomega.org