How To Make a Marriage Work | Chodo Robert Campbell and Koshin Paley Ellison (Co-Interviewed by Dr. Bianca Harris)

Summary

Podcast Summary: How To Make a Marriage Work | Chodo Robert Campbell and Koshin Paley Ellison (Co-Interviewed by Dr. Bianca Harris)

Released on February 12, 2025

Introduction

In this heartfelt and insightful episode of 10% Happier with Dan Harris, host Dan Harris, along with his wife Dr. Bianca Harris, engages in a deep conversation with their close friends Koshin Paley Ellison and Chodo Robert Campbell—married Zen priests and directors of the New York Zen Center for Contemplative Care. The episode delves into the intricacies of maintaining a healthy marriage, especially when both partners come from backgrounds marked by significant trauma. The discussion is enriched with humor, personal anecdotes, and profound insights into building and sustaining meaningful relationships.

Key Topics

1. Understanding Early Childhood Trauma in Relationships

   The conversation begins with Koshin sharing his childhood experiences, highlighting how early trauma can manifest in adult relationships. Koshin describes his upbringing with an unstable single mother, fostering a deep-seated fear of unpredictability and abandonment.

   • Chodo Robert Campbell (07:07): "For me, any kind of surprise, any change for me personally, given my background, my childhood stuff? If you're going to change something, let me know or ask me first because I can't take it."

   This foundational understanding sets the stage for discussing how past traumas influence current relationship dynamics.

2. Establishing and Respecting Relationship Rules

   To navigate their unique challenges, Koshin and Chodo have developed a set of "rules of the road." These rules emphasize the importance of seeking permission and maintaining open communication to prevent misunderstandings.

   • Koshin Paley Ellison (11:12): "Seek permission. No, the other rules are such. Yeah, it's to ask. To ask me if I would like."

   Dr. Bianca highlights the effectiveness of these rules in keeping their 23-year marriage strong, allowing them to laugh and reset during conflicts.

   • Dr. Bianca Harris (11:43): "And we can laugh about it too when there's an impasse and he'll get angry. And then we can be like, oh, the rules. We forgot the rules."

3. The Role of Humor in Relationships

   Humor emerges as a crucial tool for the couple to diffuse tension and maintain a loving connection even during disagreements.

   • Dr. Bianca Harris (12:02): "Having a sense of humor in our relationship has been incredibly important. It allows us to be real and loving and stay in the relationship when things are tricky."

   By naming their internal struggles humorously (e.g., "Whiplash Willie," "Negative Nigel"), they create a buffer that prevents personal attacks and fosters mutual understanding.

4. Personal Growth and External Work

   Both partners emphasize the necessity of individual work outside the relationship to ensure personal well-being and relational health.

   • Dr. Bianca Harris (43:46): "Finding therapy, finding a meditation practice both individually and finding ways to connect together around shared exploration is really, really, to me, the reason why our relationship works."

   This commitment to self-improvement and shared growth opportunities reinforces their bond and resilience.

5. Compassion and Understanding Partner's Operating Manuals

   The discussion touches on the importance of understanding each other's emotional and psychological frameworks—their "operating manuals."

   • Dan Harris (18:39): "We're asking the wrong question in relationships, romantic or otherwise. Often we ask, what's the matter with you? And instead, we should be asking, what happened to you?"

   By shifting the focus from blame to understanding, couples can navigate conflicts more empathetically.

6. Balancing Personal Needs and Partnership

   Koshin and Chodo explore the delicate balance between attending to personal needs and fostering a collaborative partnership.

   • Koshin Paley Ellison (08:24): "Let's just maybe a touch of control."

   They discuss how respecting each other's autonomy while supporting one another's vulnerabilities is vital for a healthy relationship.

7. Navigating Emotional Triggers and Responses

   The episode delves into how past experiences influence present reactions, particularly in high-stress situations like potential abandonment or engulfment fears.

   • Dan Harris (37:19): "We're asking the wrong question in relationships... Instead, we should be asking, what happened to you."

   Understanding these triggers allows couples to respond with greater sensitivity and reduce reactive behaviors.

8. Practical Advice for Maintaining Healthy Relationships

   Towards the end, Dan prompts Koshin and Chodo to share actionable advice for listeners seeking to strengthen their relationships. The key takeaways include:

   • Shared Values and Willingness to Grow: Engaging in joint practices like therapy or meditation to align and support each other's growth.

   • Compassionate Communication: Recognizing and addressing each partner's challenging aspects without personalizing conflicts.

   • Regular Expressions of Love: Consistently communicating affection and appreciation to maintain emotional connection.

   • Flexibility in Operating Manuals: Creating adaptable guidelines that honor both partners' needs and promote mutual respect.

   • Dr. Bianca Harris (73:15): "Both have to be willing, because we know plenty of relationships where one partner is willing or one of them isn't... It's critical to have a shared willingness and shared value."

Notable Quotes

• Chodo Robert Campbell (06:40): "I have always felt, and I know it's not about me, that I'm just putting my projections onto others."

• Dr. Bianca Harris (25:15): "Two wounded warriors meeting."

• Koshin Paley Ellison (54:56): "Being with someone who's dying... it's so fucking profound. There's nothing else like it. It's just here and now."

• Chodo Robert Campbell (73:28): "I come from this very deep feeling place, this place of intuition and instinct. It's all my shit."

• Dan Harris (37:19): "Understanding your partner's black bag—the invisible baggage of their past—is crucial for a smooth ride in your relationship."

Conclusion

This episode offers a candid exploration of the complexities inherent in long-term relationships, especially when both partners carry the weight of past traumas. Through the wisdom of Koshin and Chodo, listeners gain valuable insights into the importance of communication, humor, personal growth, and mutual compassion. The conversation underscores that maintaining a healthy marriage requires continuous effort, understanding, and a willingness to navigate discomfort together. For anyone seeking to enrich their romantic relationships, this episode serves as both a guide and an inspiration.

Additional Resources

• New York Zen Center for Contemplative Care: Directed by Koshin and Chodo, the center offers Zen practices, education programs, and care services focusing on contemplative care in medical settings. zencare.org

• Books Recommended by Guests:

  • Wholehearted Slow Down, Help Out, Wake Up by Koshin Paley Ellison
  • Untangled: Walking the Eighth Path of Clarity, Courage, and Compassion by Chodo Robert Campbell

Listeners are encouraged to explore these resources to further their understanding and practice of maintaining healthy, compassionate relationships.

Transcript

[Dan Harris]

Wondery subscribers can listen to 10% Happier early and ad free right now. Join Wondery plus in the Wondery app or on Apple podcasts. It's the 10% Happier podcast. I'm Dan Harris. Hello everybody. How we doing today? We've got a candid, raw, insightful, useful and often hilarious. Seriously, genuinely hilarious. Many, many belly laughs in the course of this conversation and it's all about how to maintain a healthy marriage or any other kind of romantic relationship. We thought this was a good episode to drop as Valentine's Day rolls around. You're about to hear me and my wife, Dr. Bianca Harris, in conversation with our old and very close friends Koshin Paley Ellison and Chodo Robert Campbell, a pair of married Zen priests. They are in fact maybe the happiest couple I've ever met. Koshin and Chodo run the New York Zen center for Contemplative Care, which does many things including training people to be hospice volunteers. Bianca and I actually took a nine month course at the Zen center where we train to sit with dying people and by extension, to sit with ourselves. In this conversation we talk about the role of early childhood trauma and how that shows up in your intimate relationships, the importance of understanding your partner's operating manual and how to come up with some rules of the road, the role of humor in relationships, how it can be used successfully and unsuccessfully, why it's important to do your own work outside of your relationship, and the value of learning to get uncomfortable together. Just a few notes before we dive in. It is not a coincidence, as I mentioned earlier, that we're dropping this episode around Valentine's Day. We We've also posted a few other episodes in recent days that might be of interest, including a quick solo pod where I sum up some of the lessons that I have personally learned about how not to torpedo your relationships. Also want to say there's a quick mention at the top of this episode of somebody named Alexander. We don't explain who Alexander is. He is our son. Just a heads up on that. And finally, I just want to tell you a little bit more about our guests. Sensei Chodo Robert Campbell is a Zen teacher, a bereavement specialist, and a grief counselor. And Sensei Koshin Paley Ellison is a Zen teacher, Jungian psychotherapist, and author of several books including Wholehearted and Untangle. Before we get to the show, I just wanna mention that the Dump It Here journal that my wife and I created and that sold out double quick. It's back in stock. Just go to danharris.com and click on Shop to find it or go to shop.danharris.com It's a really cool journal. It's pre non dogmatic. There are some instructions at the beginning. The rest of it is an open field for your scribbling. Go check it out danharris.com and click on the shop or go to shop.danharris.com if you deal with anxiety, you're definitely not alone. The bad news is that it doesn't go away overnight. The good news is that you really can change your relationship to it. The Happier Meditation app offers a course called Taming Anxiety. Over the course of 10 sessions, meditation teacher Leslie Booker and and anxiety expert Dr. Luana Marquez guide you through strategies to cope with challenging situations, Break free from anxiety loops and build mindfulness, compassion and bravery. To start the Taming Anxiety course, download the Happier Meditation App today. Wherever you get your apps. I love Airbnb. I stayed in one last winter with two other families. It was in Plantation, Florida and we all had our kids with us and the backyard was like a private playground. It had a soccer pitch, a volleyball, whatever you call it, a pool. And inside there was a whole playroom with games. It was nuts and it wasn't even super expensive. The thing I often say about Airbnbs is that as much as I love hotels, when you're traveling with other families, to stay in the same home together is a level of bonding that you're not going to get at a hotel. So for you, maybe you want to go somewhere warm over the winter. And while you're away, you could Airbnb your home and make some extra money toward the trip. Whether you could use a little extra money to cover some bills or for something a little bit more fun, your home or spare room might be worth more than you think. Find out how [e-mail] host this show is sponsored by BetterHelp. What are your relationship green flags? We often hear about red flags. You know, things we should avoid. So for you, what are the green flags? What are the things that are a plus, a must? If you're not sure what your green flags are, you might be a good candidate for therapy because a therapist can really help you identify the green flags. You want to look for the things in your partner that encourage you to stay in the game, that keep you grateful and committed. And also you want to work on your own stuff so that you can show up in a more available and effective way in your relationship. I have found that talking about my stuff with my therapist over the course of many, many years has really helped me kind of clear away some. Some of the habitual storylines and ancient grievances and, you know, familial stuff that can prevent me from being a good spouse. Discover your relationship green flags with better help. Visit betterhelp.com happier today to get 10% off your first month. That's betterhelp. H E L p dot com happier. Hi, guys. Thanks for doing this.

[Dr. Bianca Harris]

Oh, good to see you.

[Koshin Paley Ellison]

Good to see you.

[Dan Harris]

Any of you, Any of the three of you have any questions or concerns or anything you want to throw out now?

[Dr. Bianca Harris]

Yes. My question is when we're going to hang out and actually share a meal?

[Dan Harris]

I love that question. And Bianca, queen of our schedule, I will put all responsibility for that on you.

[Dr. Bianca Harris]

Beautiful.

[Chodo Robert Campbell]

That's fine. I used to resent that, actually, but then you started making plans without me recently and they were all wrong. So I will take it back.

[Koshin Paley Ellison]

Bianca, we married with the same person. He's constantly making plans for dinner or for whatever he says, oh, we're having dinner tomorrow night. Like, who are you having dinner with? We're having a new start. I'm like, no, I didn't agree to that. Then he says, oh, God, I don't want. You know, I can't counsel. I feel guilty. I. Well, this is a unilateral decision. It's a unilateral cancellation.

[Dr. Bianca Harris]

And I realize it's good for you.

[Koshin Paley Ellison]

Yeah.

[Dan Harris]

The terminology we use around this house is MP and yp. YP is your problem.

[Chodo Robert Campbell]

How many things in the house do you think are my problem? In fact, Alexander has started to use the YP and I don't like it.

[Koshin Paley Ellison]

Do you?

[Chodo Robert Campbell]

Yes. But what I want to know from you, Chodo, for inspiration, really, is, is are you countering Coshin's plan making in principle or because the date truly doesn't.

[Koshin Paley Ellison]

Work just to be cussed most of the time. It's called oppositional defiance disorder. Coshin likes to term it that way. Usually it's because I haven't been consulted. For me, any kind of surprise, any change for me personally, given my background, my childhood stuff? If you're going to change something, let me know or ask me first because I can't take. It's not the third word. It's really triggering for me. Suddenly it's a surprise, oh, we're doing this. Oh, this has changed. Or we're going to do so and so, so and so and so. Well, I need to know these things up front. You can't just Bring something on me.

[Dr. Bianca Harris]

It's so interesting because it's even with people that he, as you both know, someone that he actually likes, which is. Which is not, you know, a huge circle. So it just. That's.

[Koshin Paley Ellison]

It.

[Dr. Bianca Harris]

So it's interesting.

[Koshin Paley Ellison]

Very small.

[Dan Harris]

Let's just say agency and consultation are important to you.

[Koshin Paley Ellison]

For me, yeah, I think it's actually. I think it's probably more to do with agency, and it's not about being in control. It's about being partnered with, you know, let's have a. Let's.

[Dr. Bianca Harris]

Let's just maybe a touch of control.

[Koshin Paley Ellison]

Well, around most things, it's control. But, yes, I think it's about respect for me. It's like, hey, maybe I don't want to do that.

[Chodo Robert Campbell]

I was just going to say, you use the word partnership. And I remember early on in our marriage, Dan used to just automatically forward things to me, but ccing the person who is requesting a date or something, and he would say, bianca is going to deal with it. And it took me a really long time. And still today, sometimes I have to remind myself that most of the time this is coming from a place of generosity and partnership. But because of the space that I came from, it has felt, and I don't think it does as much anymore. And now proof is in the pudding that he shouldn't be planning things, but it was more like, I don't have time to deal with it. Here you go. Your time is less valuable than mine. So that lack of even choice on an email or a text where somebody else is already there with the expectation felt a little bit. It felt like a very, very minor kind of assault where I had no choice in the matter. But I do understand more after many years of marriage that where he came from as a child of an intact family, and he has said, this is me inviting you in and being a team. And that is not a natural instinct for me at all.

[Koshin Paley Ellison]

I think Koshin's very much the same. He does it from a place of inviting me in and a place of love, and yet it doesn't come across that way to me, but it is that it is coming from that place. And yet for me, it's like it has to do with, I think, part two. Don't do anything lovingly towards. Don't do anything loving for me. What's the payback?

[Dan Harris]

Oh, that's interesting.

[Koshin Paley Ellison]

Yeah.

[Chodo Robert Campbell]

Yeah.

[Dan Harris]

That puts Cochin in a really tricky position, because if he wants to do something spontaneous and generous and loving for you, you're going to view it with Suspicion.

[Koshin Paley Ellison]

Yeah.

[Dr. Bianca Harris]

Welcome, welcome. Yes, it is very tricky. So I'm also like so aware of that, that it's like, you know, trying to figure out what would be nourishing and knowing that there's some steps and a lot, as we call it, actually really affectionately, like the rules. There's a lot of rules and like how to do things. And so sometimes I want to do something spontaneous and that's when we get into trouble. Sometimes. Sometimes.

[Dan Harris]

What are the rules?

[Koshin Paley Ellison]

Seek permission. No, the other rules are such. Yeah, it's to ask. To ask me if I would like.

[Dr. Bianca Harris]

To do this, like super explicit. Like we're thinking about seeing this person or doing this thing on this date. How do you feel about that?

[Koshin Paley Ellison]

Or I've made a reservation for. Really? Why? Gets tricky. The rules have kept us together for 23 years, so they're not that stringent.

[Dr. Bianca Harris]

And we can laugh about it too when there's an impasse and he'll get angry. And then we can be like, oh, the rules. We forgot the rules.

[Koshin Paley Ellison]

Whiplash Willie can go.

[Dr. Bianca Harris]

And we remember Whiplash Willy shows up and.

[Dan Harris]

Wait, wait, who's Whiplash Willie?

[Dr. Bianca Harris]

Whiplash Willie, one of my.

[Koshin Paley Ellison]

One of my many.

[Dr. Bianca Harris]

Looks like Toto sometimes, like, you know, after he says something, you're not like, ow, my neck. You know, just like, you're just blindsided by that energy. And so like the beauty is actually so just like actually just calling it. So I say to him, you know, so, Whiplash Willie, glad to see you. And when Chodo's ready, I'd love to talk to him about this and we can participate later because we. I feel like to actually having a sense of humor in our relationship has been incredibly important. And because things are tough and sometimes we get upset and we get uncomfortable and I think it allows us to be real and loving and stay in relationship when things are tricky.

[Dan Harris]

I have a million follow ups. But I'm feeling a little protective of Chodo here because we're talking about all these rules and how he's Whiplash Willie. And I know you also sometimes call him negative Nigel and it's like you're talking to him like you're performing an exorcism, you know, like. And there are good reasons here. So Chodo, can you just describe a little bit to the extent that you're comfortable with it? Can you describe a little bit of your childhood so people understand the derivation of all of this?

[Koshin Paley Ellison]

So I immediately go back to 4 or 5 years of age where single mother, 17 years of age when she had me so she had no role models. She was kind of a wild woman, wild child. So there was always a string of different fellows in her life, and she had a predilection for violent alcoholics, even at 17. So there was never. I never felt safe. I never felt in control. Because she was never in control. Well, she was in control, but in a very kind of unhealthy control way. So there's always this fear of what's going to come next. Where are we going to be living next? Who are we going to be with next? Are we going to have a home to go to next? So this little kid was like a mom. Would disappear for weeks on end. She would go out to find a job, and I would be living with my aunt, and she would be, I'll see you tonight. And then she'd come back weeks later. So it was never really knowing. So I have to know what's happening? Where are you going? When are you coming home? And, yeah, I mean, that's really where it began. A real deep seated fear of not being taken care of, included and feeling safe. Yeah. Sorry. So, I mean, you know, mom coming home with a different person, a different man every once in a while, it's like, who are we having dinner with tonight? Who is this person? You know, I don't know. You know, it's like.

[Dr. Bianca Harris]

And they were dangerous.

[Koshin Paley Ellison]

And they were. Yeah, usually dangerous.

[Dan Harris]

I appreciate you talking about that. I want to say it's not out yet. I don't know when it'll be out, but Choto's been working on a memoir. I've read parts of it. It's absolutely beautiful and harrowing. And so there's a lot more to this story. But that's just the tip of the iceberg. I'm glad you said it, because it really does put the rules in perspective. And it's amazing you can have a sense of humor about it. But these rules come from a. A real place.

[Koshin Paley Ellison]

Yeah, absolutely. No question. Sometimes it's so real. I mean, it's like my whole body can just freeze. It can be something so simple, you know? There's a reservation. Why didn't you tell me? Who is this? Why are we doing this? For a Christmas gift, a holiday gift, Koshin bought tickets to go see Modi, this wonderful, wonderful Jewish comedian at the Beacon Theater. And he gave me the tickets. I'm like, this is great. But no, you didn't tell me this was going to be happening. And I suddenly feel like I've been ambushed and it's so fleeting. It happens in just a split second. And then I say, oh, I'm so sorry. Thank you. I really like this guy. I really appreciate it. And I think if coach were to say, listen, I got us tickets for something that you really like, that you really appreciate, and here they are. But it's when it's kind of given, I don't trust. I don't trust gifts, basically. What are you giving me? I need to know before you give it to me. I don't trust it.

[Dr. Bianca Harris]

But also, sometimes it takes you a minute. You have the reaction. And then to me, it's like your practice allows you to almost, in a couple breaths, to come back and be like, oh, right, I love this guy, and we're going to have so much fun. Which we did do. But I think it's sometimes what I experience in the relationship is that sometimes it's learning to have a loving attitude for me to realize. Like, when I was even handing it to him, I was like, oh, boy. You know, and just having to realize that that will come and then they'll be awake after the wave, and I will be able to actually enjoy it. But it's a process that, to me, has been an important part of loving each other. Yeah.

[Dan Harris]

What I'm hearing here. And, Bianca, I think this kind of reminds me of our interview that we did with Bruce Perry, who's this incredible psychotherapist and I think neuroscientist as well. Bianca will correct me on that, but he wrote a book. He wrote it with Oprah. And the basic thesis was, we're asking the wrong question in relationships, romantic or otherwise. Often we ask, what's the matter with you? And instead we should be asking, what happened to you? So, like, understanding your partner's, you know, understanding their black bag. I know that's a term that you, Koshin, use a lot in your teaching. It's from a poet who talks about how we're all carrying around an invisible black bag of our past traumas. And unless you can kind of see the other person's black bag, the ride's gonna be bumpy no matter what. But if you're not dealing with the bag, you're in trouble anyway. Bianca, does that all sound right to you, given our past history, maritally and editorially?

[Chodo Robert Campbell]

Yeah. I have so many things sort of going through my mind right now, one of which I should just say, not directly related to what Dan is asking, that I just felt very overcome by emotion. Just loving you guys and Chodo. Just feeling what? As much as I've Heard your stories over and over, and I look forward to hearing them again and again. It still feels so raw and fresh every time. And, you know, to the extent that I can relate, even in the smallest, smallest way, I just love you so much and can't believe what you've been through and so grateful for what you put out there, both of you, of course. And along those lines, I was wondering, as far as the rules go, because we haven't had that conversation, even though we know a lot about each other. And my past may have more sort of highlights, but I think some of the lowlights from Dan's past are sort of coming out a little more slowly. And it's not like in any given scenario, you're holding those black bags equally for each other because you're having your own experience. And so I'm just wondering, at what point in your relationship did the rules get established? Was it after, you know, a long period of trial and error and then being like, oh, okay, wait, this is what we understand about us. Here's how we should go forward? Or were you just sort of that together psychologically and emotionally early on to say Choda, like, this is what I'm about. This is what I need. If you want to be with me, how you know you need those things and how you adapt them over time.

[Koshin Paley Ellison]

I think from the beginning, you must have got a sense of the fact that I needed rules, that I needed to feel safe, also to emotional support, and yet it was very difficult to receive. And I think you knew that. You must have known that from the very beginning, because I tend to be an open book, lay my shit out on, go and say, here it is. This is who I am. And I think probably in the beginning of the relationship, it wasn't so slowly, slowly, slowly, you can answer the question. But for me, I would say it was bit by bit by bit like a little carrot. But what was your experience?

[Dr. Bianca Harris]

No, I think that from the very beginning, I was very aware and also drawn to you, of course, and so entranced and delighted by your complexity. And also, there are parts of you that were, to me, your level of anger was, as you know, was actually terrifying to me. And it would scared the crap out of me. And I had a hard time understanding that it didn't have to do with me. He would just get really angry about things. But I think at the same time, like, as we were getting to know each other, you wanted to as you help the tribe before we buy, and. And I said, no, no, no, no, no. You have to make a decision that you actually want to be with me. Because I was actually so clear that this is, like a real thing. And Choda was in another situation. So I was like, you have your chosen.

[Koshin Paley Ellison]

You were.

[Dr. Bianca Harris]

He was married. And I was like, he was married six months.

[Koshin Paley Ellison]

And so I said, can I try before I buy? Because this might be infatuation. Or he was like.

[Dr. Bianca Harris]

And my grandmother, too, was like, don't do that, because otherwise you'll always be with someone who did that. And I feel like, in so many ways, like, that was a really important part of the beginning of forging of our relationship to say, like, what are we doing and what are we willing to do? And we were both willing to make big sacrifices, which I think we often do unconsciously. But I feel like we both had done a lot of work psychologically on ourselves, and we were both, you know, as pretty steady practitioners. And I think all of those things help enormous amount. So that when we encountered things like meeting rules, it was actually helpful. And we both could understand because I also come from a background with lots of trauma, too. Not the same, but just my own version. And so I think that I was also able to appreciate the rattled tenderness that he experiences and the need for protection, so. Because I also need it, too. And I think that we're always trying to learn how to support each other in that. Which is, you know, erod.

[Koshin Paley Ellison]

I think we should also say that I'm very loving and very generous, very open and heartwarming. Caring, which comes actually, which comes from a place of deprivation in so many ways. As a child, I'm very, very generous and very loving and very caring. And I show that in my food, in my gifts. So I really think about Kosher, what he brings to me and how can I repay him in ways that are not always physically intimate. It's like, I can show my love by giving you this. I can show my love by doing this. But sometimes around physical intimacy, there's still that kind of fear on occasion. Right.

[Dan Harris]

That was a kiss for you listeners. And I would add to your. In terms of your generosity, Chodo, like, also creating a beautiful space. You're super into flowers and design. And so it's not just food.

[Dr. Bianca Harris]

No, it's all inclusive. Yeah. So I think that it's also really learning how to respect one another is a rare thing to me. One of the most important parts of our relationship is our love and shared heart and appreciation. We're so different in so many ways, and yet we share this, I think a kindness and A love for each other and for others. That feels the most important thing. And it feels rare and it feels devotional and spacious at the same time to me.

[Koshin Paley Ellison]

Two wounded warriors.

[Dr. Bianca Harris]

Yeah.

[Koshin Paley Ellison]

Meeting.

[Dr. Bianca Harris]

What about you two?

[Chodo Robert Campbell]

I was just thinking that we should probably have some names for each other because even though there's a lot of humor, it's usually after the fact. Well, it depends what we're talking about. But for the times when you really need it, it doesn't usually come right away. Although calling somebody else out on their state can also go very wrong. So you have to read the room. But I don't want to know what your name for me would be. But you should think about it because I do think it would. Not on air. I have a few in mind for you. But also not on air.

[Dan Harris]

No, you can say those. No, I have no. I have no garb.

[Chodo Robert Campbell]

I need to.

[Dr. Bianca Harris]

Now I'm so curious.

[Chodo Robert Campbell]

I need to choose very carefully for my own self.

[Dan Harris]

Yeah.

[Chodo Robert Campbell]

But I think that is very useful. And there was a turning point for sure, as we are also very different backgrounds, different expressions of caring, different changes in our outlooks and choices in life, many of which have paralleled each other, some of which are just like off cycle, you know, I'm still. Dan has very much figured out his lane in terms of shifting from journalist to whatever we're calling you now. But it's working, you know. No, but you know where your passion lies, both intellectually and professionally and all the things. And I'm sort of in an in between place. And that certainly affects me, you know, how I am on a daily basis for now. But. Yeah, to have a little perspective, which we have in learning more about each other. But in the moment when one is not feeling cared for as much as they'd like to be and the other isn't in a place necessarily to hear it and respond to it. That is a tricky zone. And so a name might help. I don't know. What do you think?

[Dan Harris]

Kind of reminds me of like performing ifs on your romantic partner. You know, ifs just for the uninitiated. Everybody on this call knows what it is. But just for the listener. Internal family systems. I'll drop some links in the show notes. I've done some episodes on this. It's a form of therapy where you name your inner parts. We all have different aspects of our personality. Jealous mode, anger mode, generous mode. And you. You name and create relationships with each of these aspects of your personality. And Koshin coming up with these names for Chodo's parts is. And it's probably not a coincidence that Koshin is a trained therapist, is naming aspects of Chodo's inner repertoire. And I think the question you're asking Bianca is like, how can you do that, especially with some humor that doesn't make the situation more combustible in tenuous moments?

[Chodo Robert Campbell]

Yeah, well, you can't make it up on the fly, that's for sure, in the middle of the discussion. That would be very bad.

[Dan Harris]

Well, I would imagine what you guys did is come up with these names when you weren't in the middle of a fight, and so that when you were in a fight, the names could be invoked with some degree, some potential for success.

[Dr. Bianca Harris]

And also, I think our experience, too, is actually learning Whiplash Willie and Negative Nigel.

[Koshin Paley Ellison]

Really?

[Dr. Bianca Harris]

Actually naming them avoids a lot of fights, actually, because I feel like when those folks show up, they tend to cause trouble. Right. And that's just what they do. And so I think that actually us being able to have a sense of humor about it in the moment. Right. Is able to kind of allay it. And I think that that has been amazing for me because actually, one of the things that has been challenging for me in that situation is that I used to take Whiplash Willie and Negative Nigel so personally when he's just feeling angry or just feeling negative or whatever that is. And I used to, because of my history, feel like I did something wrong. So now it actually has been actually very healing in our relationship to not have to believe that. Yeah.

[Chodo Robert Campbell]

But shouldn't it work both ways also? I was going to say, let's just.

[Koshin Paley Ellison]

Jump in there for a moment. I feel very protective coaching Klein and.

[Chodo Robert Campbell]

Yeah.

[Koshin Paley Ellison]

And Freddie Freud over here. Melanie clapping. Koshi Klein and Freddie Froy. It's like, you know what? Stop terrifying me. You know, he says, so what's going on for you? Right? What's the story you're telling yourself right now, which I love? Jerry Colonna. What's the story you're telling yourself now? It's like, you know what? F you, Freddie Freud. Leave me to it. I'll be just fine.

[Dr. Bianca Harris]

Coincline.

[Koshin Paley Ellison]

I do have these pet names, too.

[Dr. Bianca Harris]

I've just learned those two just now.

[Koshin Paley Ellison]

Yeah.

[Dr. Bianca Harris]

This is a living, live moment.

[Koshin Paley Ellison]

Freddie Floyd, over.

[Chodo Robert Campbell]

It's a good one.

[Koshin Paley Ellison]

Isn't that great?

[Dan Harris]

But what you're saying, Chodo, is that sometimes when he does ifs on you, it doesn't go down well.

[Koshin Paley Ellison]

Right? It never goes down well.

[Dr. Bianca Harris]

Usually tells me to go F myself.

[Dan Harris]

You could say fuck on this show. I don't know why you're not saying.

[Dr. Bianca Harris]

Let'S go fuck yourself or other words. But actually, but I'm fine. And I, I usually just say, okay, I will, I'll go do that, and I'm gonna go to the gym or whatever that is, you know, So I think that it doesn't always like in that moment break it, but it does for me. It breaks the, the lock where I get into trouble, where I over personalize and actually when I over personalize it and think that he's angry and it's about me.

[Koshin Paley Ellison]

What makes it complex too is this kind of relation, this back and forth thing of the psychological back and forth, you know, so I can drive him to this place where he needs to go to the gym, get out of my sight kind of thing. But then when he leaves, it's like, when are you coming back? You know, that's how I get get really. If he's not back in an hour, it's like he's not coming back.

[Dr. Bianca Harris]

You get insecure.

[Koshin Paley Ellison]

I get really insecure, right. And then I'm texting, where are you now? I'm in the gym. How long are you going to be? And then it's like, how long are you going to be? Because I need to put the kettle on or I need to start dinner. When really it's like, when are you coming home? Are you coming home?

[Chodo Robert Campbell]

You know, I used to have that experience a lot. Now I ask when he's home with a different answer.

[Koshin Paley Ellison]

When are you leaving?

[Chodo Robert Campbell]

How long is it going to be? Take a little more time.

[Koshin Paley Ellison]

Don't worry. Take your time. Tomorrow's fine.

[Chodo Robert Campbell]

But I used to have the same fears. And with Dan traveling so much early on and just being sort of too busy and also unfamiliar with the emotional state of somebody who fears abandonment, which I genuinely don't feel I have that fear anymore. But undoubtedly it comes out in other ways because it's a part of your history that doesn't really go away, even if you have a better relationship with it or to it. So it doesn't present like that at all for me anymore. But yes, it's got to present in other ways. And that probably comes out in not necessarily the content of our arguments, but the manner in which we argue. Because then it touches on a place of real deep seated, like existential, you know, am I not good enough? And all the things that I know might be pointed out to me because, you know, they're probably true, it's easier to get defensive because that is the very thing that you worry about being the thing that drives somebody away.

[Koshin Paley Ellison]

Totally get it. Totally get it. I mean, June, I again joined the hit. Bianca always potion's much better. You know, it's like I know this is not about me when I kind of shoot the arrows towards, like, you know, this is not about me. And I, you know, I fully get it. Love you and what's going on. And sometimes I can say, you know, well, what got touched right now is boom. And other times I just have to. Whiplash really comes out. So this beautiful relationship towards each other and our own kind of her places. But Coshin is much better or not better. It's much easier for Coshin to say, well, you know, what's going on right now.

[Dr. Bianca Harris]

There are moments where I like, I do take it really personally still. There are moments that night like I feel like a little baby. Like a giant baby, actually. Right. And I feel like I want to be a pup in his pupp. You know, Like, I feel right. And I want reassurance. I want. And that makes him crazy. Yeah.

[Chodo Robert Campbell]

Well, that's where Chodo and I have sort of always had a bit of an alliance and just. I mean, the special love. Not that I don't love you dearly, Koshin, but we've always also talked about in relationship. Occasionally there's a little bit of a flip where Dan and Chodo are a little more aligned. So it's interesting that there are ways in which we are more similar Chodo as individuals and friends and in community than in relationship. Even if some of the same fears can be triggered, sometimes your response maybe to your own fears is more similar to Dan's frostiness. And for lack of a better. And I'm not trying to be disparaging, but your way a little bit, is to push away.

[Dr. Bianca Harris]

Yeah.

[Chodo Robert Campbell]

Even if you want to pull closer.

[Dan Harris]

Plus one on everything you just said there, I don't. Don't take it personally at all. At least not right now.

[Chodo Robert Campbell]

The day is young.

[Dan Harris]

Exactly. The name that's coming to mind right now is another person we all know and I think we all really revere as this guy Michael Vincent Miller, who is a legendary therapist and in particular has done a lot of great couples therapy. And Bianca and I have done a lot of couples therapy with Michael and really love him. And he has this concept of intimate terrorism. And he came up with this concept before 9, 11 and before the word terrorism really kind of took on the. It's always been a hefty word, and he chose it deliberately. But it's. It's Even more loaded now. And so he's always quick to point that out. But he talks about how in every relationship, or pretty much every relationship, there's usually somebody who fears abandonment and another person who fears engulfment. And with us, Bianca and I can kind of see it with Koshin and Chodo. In your case, given your past, there were fears of abandonment. In my case, fears of, like, engulfment, meaning specifically for me, like, I can't handle this. In fact, where I would go with it is I must be a monster who's incapable of love because I cannot handle these demands and time out.

[Chodo Robert Campbell]

I don't know how much of this we're gonna wanna put in. But what demands do you speak of? Or, like, how can we have this conversation?

[Dan Harris]

Oh, sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry. I apologize. They're not even, like, big demands, just basic demands for not being frosty in moments when you need it so you don't make outsized demands. And I apologize. I should have been clear about that. So this is in no way to denigrate you? More to talk about my own feelings of deficiency and how this fits within this concept that. That Michael talks about, of intimate terrorism, that each side is triggering the other person's fears and can put you into a downward spiral, which my friend Evelyn Tripoli calls the toilet vortex. And the way out, I think, or at least one way out that Koshen is able to do sometimes, and I think we're all able to do sometimes, is to have some compassion, not only for yourself, but for where the other person's coming from and to recognize that it's not personal. And so over time, for me to have more confidence that, yeah, you know, I'm not. I'm not a horrible person. Like, yes, I might get annoyed inappropriately, but I still have what it takes to, like, be a husband anyway. So does that. Bianca, I know I might have pissed you off there. Did I clean it up?

[Chodo Robert Campbell]

You did clean it up. Which is not to say there aren't other things that are appropriately, you know, triggering, but just as a generalization, and I would say one of the triggers actually, is really putting those labels. I understand the concept, but I. You know, the word abandonment is a very challenging one. I think it has a. You know, there's a victim kind of quality to it. There's something about it that doesn't, for me at least, feel quite right. But it's easy to have an opinion about it, you know, from the inside or the outside. And so part of that struggle, knowing that, you know, if we're in a position where you're thinking about it. I know that you're not understanding actually, you may think you're understanding our roles, but the understanding of what I'm actually feeling in fearing abandonment, for lack of a better word, gets a little diluted. And of course I can't make that whole argument in the moment, but what I would say is that there's a little bit of both in everyone. He's, you know, you're not all one thing. I definitely fear engulfment and it doesn't present in the same way. So yeah, I would just be careful for me personally about that. But that's why I rejected it at the beginning of our sessions with him. Only because it's largely correct as it.

[Dr. Bianca Harris]

Would go, but not always. So. Right.

[Dan Harris]

Yeah.

[Chodo Robert Campbell]

Yeah.

[Dan Harris]

And who gets to decide that's true with every model. Right? Every heuristic for the mind or for relationships. It's like not maybe not every model, but for most models they're useful to a point.

[Chodo Robert Campbell]

Yeah.

[Dan Harris]

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[Dr. Bianca Harris]

I'm curious about one of the things that I think is implicit and explicit in our relationship together, the four of us, is that we all appreciate doing work and to be exploring and to both individually and as couples and as friends. And I think that one of the things, you know, I was thinking about one of my mentors, this guy named James Holman, said if you don't exaggerate, you know, what's the point of speaking? So actually when I, I was thinking about.

[Koshin Paley Ellison]

And you exaggerate a lot.

[Dr. Bianca Harris]

Well, he was my mentor, you know, but I was wondering about Bianca, your response to Dan because I was just hearing him and when he was sharing what he was sharing about, I was imagining that he was not talking about large demands. And I was just curious, since we had this live moment, if this would be okay. And it may not be okay, but I'm just curious because I feel that that is something that happens with us, that sometimes we say words that fire us up in some way. And I was thinking about when Chodo thinks I'm being Freddie Freud, for example, I'm actually using concepts about him rather than feeling him. Right. I think that that's what I'm kind of actually, in a way, pathologizing him or he feels pathologized. So I was just. I wondered if it would be okay if you wanted to say anything about it.

[Chodo Robert Campbell]

Sure. I mean, I think what you said right there was really illuminating feeling pathologized. Even if there's truth to it, in those moments when you're already feeling vulnerable, even if it seems like you're on the attack, the only thing that's going to make it worse, even if it's based in understanding and compassion, is assigning it that role in a way that takes away your agency, that makes you feel. You allow yourself to feel misunderstood or worse. It touches so much on the thing that's true that it's too painful and your only choice is to sort of push it back out. And I think one of Dan's greatest strengths is, you know, he's exacting with his words and, you know, is brilliant and can make sort of general, you know, logical arguments that nobody could argue with, except that that's not always the plane that we're on, which is not to say he's not having emotions. It just means that I know for me personally, given my emotions and lack of skillful communication using logic in those moments, I know I've lost from the beginning because there is no better human that I know out there that can think and speak so clearly and so exacting in the way that Dan does. And in those moments, I can't understand it. I'm. I'm just paralyzed because I know I can't do better. There isn't even really space for me to understand his motivation or more importantly, his hurt. So as somebody who used to very much be a people pleaser who's reversed course on that probably to the other extreme, just in trying to, you know, heal on my own, it's kind of had an effect on Dan that I've missed on a number of occasions, which is that I hurt him too.

[Dan Harris]

I do want to take your side on. You made a lot of really excellent points in there. I agreed with all of them. Well, that's going to sound a little self serving because you said all this nice stuff about what a good arguer I am. That's not, that's not the part I'm trying to accentuate. The minor point I want to take your side on specifically is this use of words on my part. And like, yeah, you had a minute there where you got a little activated by my use of the word demands, but I take your side on that. Like I understand how that would sound pathologizing and like maybe some percentage true, but not all the way true. And same with the word abandonment. And so, yeah, long way of saying that. I think I can make the empathic leap on that.

[Koshin Paley Ellison]

I'm just blown away by beyond what?

[Dr. Bianca Harris]

Take it in, Bianca. Take it in, take it in.

[Chodo Robert Campbell]

But I genuinely don't know why you don't know.

[Koshin Paley Ellison]

Oh, because you spoke so eloquently. I mean, you spoke from my.

[Chodo Robert Campbell]

Thank you.

[Koshin Paley Ellison]

From me, my heart too. It's like, yeah, Cochin is. And it does not sound denigrating, which it is, but probably. But you know, I see myself get.

[Dr. Bianca Harris]

Ready for the sweetness.

[Koshin Paley Ellison]

No, no, no, for me. No, by denigrating myself, you know, okay, I can do that too. But I'm not thinking about me. I always put most people that we know in the category above. I see everyone, most everyone we know is intellectually can. The word baker trails are appearing on my mind. But I don't see myself equal on so many levels intellectually. Most of the people that we know, I come from this place of very, very feeling place as opposed to. Yeah, that place of education, should we say. I mean, I have a lot of wisdom. It comes from a very different place. So sometimes I get very tongue tied when I can't. When coaching gets into kind of therapizing or just being actually very smart, it comes across as very smart and very learned. And I'm like, you know, as a kid that ran away from home at 16 and had no real formal education, I think I don't know how to respond. So I respond with violence, verbal violence, abuse. Because that's what I know. Again, that's my placement. That's my place in this moment. I think it's picking up on what Bianca was saying. I come from this very feeling place, this place of it's not emotional, it's very feeling. It's a deep seated feeling of, oh, it all comes out all my shit.

[Dr. Bianca Harris]

And in all your wisdom and all my wisdom.

[Koshin Paley Ellison]

And I like, all my wisdom comes out of that place too. I think it has very little to do with the intellect and more to do with just being in the world in a very different way. Being in the world in a sensory. I mean, it has to do with sensory. It has to do with almost. There's a deep, deep empathy for others, and not so much for myself, but for others, which. What makes me such a great caregiver and great companion to those who are dying, because it's so fresh in me. It's like, yeah, I can go there. I'm not afraid of this moment. I'm not afraid of these moments.

[Dr. Bianca Harris]

And you're not afraid of fear?

[Koshin Paley Ellison]

I'm not afraid of fear. I'm not afraid of your anger because you are dying. This is not coming from any books, this is not coming from any teachings, but other than my own innate wisdom.

[Dr. Bianca Harris]

And, and 30 years of meditation.

[Koshin Paley Ellison]

Yeah, 30 years of meditation for sure. 30 years sitting on the cushion. But this deep, deep, deep, deep, deep knowing that what I have to offer is enough, right. I don't really need to have all those credentials, although there are times when I thought, I wish I had them. But mostly it's like, fuck it, this is what you get, see right here.

[Chodo Robert Campbell]

Man, which is, you're the best. So that's great for us. But in terms of what you're saying about, you know, what you do at the bedside, you know, with people who are, who are dying, and it's just incredible. So I'm not likening what I'm about to say to what you do, but in the context of my training and the ICU and, you know, quite a lot of death as well, it is the place where I feel most comfortable, most wise and most capable actually at the bedside, just at that fine line between life and death. Not just, I mean, mostly, yes, the patient, but the people around the patient. But I, you know, if I'm honest about it, of course, a lot of it, most of it comes, I think, from empathy and awe, the human body and the world, and just solidarity in whatever way you want to look at it. But also I'm my best when the spotlight is not on me. And given that our issues, you know, aren't truly gone, but we don't have to face them in those moments because there's nothing more important, I think, than what others are going through in that context. How much of it is also sort of self serving, I often ask myself not to take away from the motivation and the skill set and the sort of purity of what's happening. But I do know that I'm more Capable in that scenario. Because it's not about me.

[Koshin Paley Ellison]

Yes. And over the years my Buddhist practice has taught me or I've embodied or embraced the idea that it's not about me. You know, when I'm in the room with someone or I'm at bedside with someone, there's no othering. It's not there, there in that bed. I'm here. It's about how do I join this person? But not coming with any agenda and not making it about me at all. It's like it's the two of us in this room, in this moment, together. Yes, you're the person that's dying and I'm here with you. And there's that cliche, there's no separation. And in fact there isn't because we're actually both dying in the moment. It's just that you're further along in the process. So if I can take out the me, the self, the choto, and just be fully present to whatever is happening in that universe, in that room, beyond the walls, just being here with you, it's so fucking profound. There's nothing else like it's dropping away because there's no room for ego. I don't think for me, my own experience, there's no room for ego. There's no room for I'm here, I'm your savior, and I'm going to be with you till you die, till your last breath. Don't worry. It's like, no, here we are. This breath is all there is in this room right now. Just that's it.

[Chodo Robert Campbell]

That is really what you taught us in the foundations course. And I guess the thing when I try to look down on that scene sort of outside of myself, I see one thing, and I agree there is no room for you and you are together. But there is a sense of relief for me that I'm not in myself, that I. Well, to whatever, however the semantics work, there's a relief that the spotlight isn't there and the best of me can come out. But the counter to that is that you return to your life on the days that you're not at the bedside. And in some ways the absolute opposite happens. And is that destabilizing for you as somebody who's has so much practice in being present and the breath. And I'm not nearly as close or I'm not sure if that was a clear question, but it wasn't very clear.

[Koshin Paley Ellison]

The question was very clear. But what I'm picking up on maybe is so first of all, I just want to say, also the gift of not having that formal education for me is that I am coming totally from this place of feeling. Totally from this place of intuition and instinct. So I'm not getting. As with a doctor, there's all sorts of other stuff going on in the back of the mind. What's this patient? How long is it? Whatever it is, it's like there's all sorts of other internal information coming from me. It's just. And yet when I'm back out of the. When I'm out of the room, of course, you know, it's like I'm in my life in a different way, you know? Yes, I'm in my life when I'm with someone, but outside of that experience, yeah, I'm on the street. I'm. You know, I'm coming to work. I'm running this center with kosher. And getting caught up in all my bullshit and my ego, for sure.

[Dr. Bianca Harris]

And not. And not.

[Koshin Paley Ellison]

And not. Well, I don't know about the end. Not. I know for sure. I'm getting caught up in all sorts of bullshit in my mind. It's in that place of. So in that place of being with someone who's dying, all that. As I said, that stuff drops away. And in my life outside of my work, there it all comes flooding back.

[Dr. Bianca Harris]

I want to just interject because I feel like actually maybe this is for Dana, Bianca and you like, and myself. I can think that all of us have had that experience of dropping some of our bullshit and so that we can actually be with another person. And how wonderful that is. It is to me, like, that's what compassion is. And for me, what I keep learning. And I feel like I've seen with all of us in different ways. Not like any of us are good at it, but the willingness to do that in more and more moments throughout our life, to meet in our interpersonal relationships and, like, in your marriage. In our marriage and in our friendships, in our family relationships and all these things. Not like we're ever good at it, but we kind of know we've had that experience. I mean, I know I've had those moments with my father, who I love very much. But we had this, like, terrible dynamic about this one particular thing. And it was through the experience of being with people in extremists that I was able to really see how I was getting caught up in some bullshit in my mind. And I was able to let this one thing drop. And it was an amazing experience. And I've seen that with you, Choda. Like that you should see his relationships with people in Starbucks. He's so alive and present to so many people between where we live and this place. It's just like that. It doesn't mean that. And also we all get caught up, but I think it's always hard for us to also celebrate that there are moments where we don't. And I've experienced that with you, Dan, I've experienced that with you, Bianca, and of course with Chodo. Just like where you're just with each other, I just want to celebrate that. Also there's those sweet moments that I feel like I'm just appreciating more and more.

[Dan Harris]

I think what you're pointing to, Koshen, is that it can be really helpful to have some sort of practice, whether it's going to therapy or meditation or whatever that you bring into a relationship, because it does allow you, and I'm going to quote Michael Vincent Miller again in something he said to me, which is to turn down the I, the letter I, the, the, the, the ego, the ensconcement in yourself, to turn that down and be more available. Doing therapy, doing meditation can help so that you can show up in the right way for whoever you're, you know, married to or in a relationship with.

[Koshin Paley Ellison]

I wondered. You've spoken about this before, I'm sure, on a number of occasions. But your experience with Ron Ronnie, when you were in hospice, how that was for you when it comes to being with another person who is approaching death, although it took a long time with Ronnie, but how were you in that relationship when you were just you and Ronnie?

[Dr. Bianca Harris]

How did it change your relationship? That changed beyond.

[Dan Harris]

Yeah, well, it's interesting. So just to give some context to the listener, Bianca and I did a course, a nine month course through the New York Zen center for Contemplative Care, which is run by Koshin and Chodo. They have a nine month course called Foundations and it teaches you essentially how to be a volunteer in a hospice. And so I was volunteering during those nine months in a hospice where I met this guy Ronnie, who had been admitted to a hospice with a diagnosis of three days to live, and by the time I met him had been in the hospice for three years and ended up living three more years. And the reason in part why I, you know, often people stop being a volunteer at the end of the nine months I kept being a volunteer is because I had, I developed such a close relationship with this guy Ronnie. We had nothing in common on the surface. He was construction worker from Harlem who you know, lived a completely different life than I did. But we really hit it off and I did experience moments of so this was in like 2016 when I met him and when I did this course with you guys. And I did experience moments of, you know, the self falling away and being totally available to him and others in the hospice. And to get back to Bianca's original question, you know, I would, I could step out of hospice and like have a temper tantrum on text with somebody at work and you know, all of my crap would come back. And so it was a really helpful experience. But it wasn't like I, you know, all of a sudden was fixed as a husband and father.

[Dr. Bianca Harris]

No, no, no, no, no, no.

[Dan Harris]

You were too quick to agree with that. I just want to point out Coming up, Koshin and Chodo talk about some practical pointers for maintaining a healthy and long lasting relationship, which they have definitely done. Foreign have you ever gotten tired of searching for your favorite movies and TV shows across your numerous streaming accounts? It can be incredibly frustrating to have to click among all the different apps and figure out, you know, where's that football game being played? Or where can I watch that movie? And I say this is as a dude who watches no small amount of tv. So there's good news here. On Prime Video you can add over 100 premium subscriptions, including Macs, Apple TV and Paramount plus all in one app. In other words, you can watch all the stuff you want to watch all in one place. No more clicking around, frustrated and confused experience the convenience of having your favorite subscriptions in your prime video account with one login and one password. There are more than 100 premium and specialty subscriptions that you can check out and unlock a world of movies, TV and sports all in one app. On Max. I love the White Lotus and I also love the Last of Us and I hear there's a new season of that coming up. Check out the add on subscriptions on Prime Video. I got a great new pair of running shoes the other day sent to me by the folks over at Brooks who make running shoes and they're sponsoring this episode. These shoes are their new glycerin 22 two shoes and I worked out in them and they're great. The glycerin 22 is for anybody who craves a cushioned, distraction free experience that allows you to savor every step. Their new DNA tuned Next generation nitrogen infused foam is created with dual size cell technology. Larger cells in the heel provide plush landings while smaller cells in the forefoot invite responsive toe Offs the wide platform. Plus the tuned heel and forefoot help your foot to land and transition from heel to toe smoothly and steadily. It's very obvious wearing these shoes that these folks over at Brooks spent a lot of time thinking about how to up your game, whatever workout you're doing, or even just taking a walk. Also, the shoes look great, so there's that. Learn [e-mail] in our remaining time here. The executive producer of the show, DJ Kashmir, has often pointed out that one of the hallmarks of the show is that we're relentlessly practical. So I do want to come back to some practical stuff that we started with, really. And I just want to put a fine point on it for the listeners. And so I'm kind of going to throw some questions at you guys, specifically Chodo and Koshin, for listeners who want to learn from how you've had this incredibly successful relationship for so long, especially given the fact that you both come out of backgrounds of significant trauma. And in the case of Koshen, you know, he's been on the show before, I'll drop some links in the show notes where he talks about his childhood, which was no walk in the park. You know, specifically looking at what we can talk about that we can leave people with, that's practical is understanding your partner's patterns and having some compassion for them, understanding your own patterns that you bring into relationship and being able to call out the other person's inner characters skillfully, it's not always gonna work. And also being able to create some sort of rules or to bring in another name that we're all familiar with. Jerry Colonna, who talks about relationships in a work context, mostly he talks about giving people your operating manual and that's, I think, portable over to romantic relationships, too. So I'm throwing a lot at you now, and I'm kind of looking at you, Koshin, to land this plane for me, but to help me think about what specific advice we can give to people given everything we've talked about in this conversation.

[Dr. Bianca Harris]

So the first thing to me is the beauty of being in relationship, for example, with Chodo. And I feel like actually, again, what the four of us share is that to be engaged in our work, which is to understand and be interested in our psychological and spiritual life inside and out. And to me, so finding therapy, finding a meditation practice both individually and finding ways to connect together around shared exploration is really, really, to me is the reason why our relationship works is that shared interest in the value. So when it's one Thing to have values of growing and learning and not having our values match. And so I feel like that we do this very imperfectly, but the willingness to say, like, how are we doing our values and what we're actually doing together? Match it. So that's one thing. And to me, you do that through psychological work, spiritual work, meditation practice, finding ways of digging in in the long term, finding ways to really. The second thing is really to find those loving ways to know each other, to know those, especially the characters of ourselves. The aspects that are challenging and how do we recognize them as patterns and it's not who the person is. So ifs talks about it as parts. Jung calls them aspects. You know, that I think it's just to really appreciate and learn how to love actually, and have actual, real compassion, which is not easy for ourselves in relationship with our partners, challenging aspects, and to realize that they're being challenged and working with it, too. And it's not fun for them in those moments either. And that, for me, is really challenging and really important. Learning to have real compassion for your partner when they're suffering and they're spitting at you, not literally, but like, that there is just, like, coming at you and realizing and learning how to create set boundaries or rules to say, you know, that that's not okay. I know you're having a hard time, and I'm going to go and do this, and I look forward to reconnecting with you. I feel like that is really important. And then another thing is what Jerry Colonna taught us in our relationship was, you know, telling the story about yourself. Like, what's the story you're telling yourself right now that has been so important in moments for Chota and I, it's like another part of the toolkit of really realizing, like, wow. It's also a way of recognizing that you and your partner are struggling in that moment. And to me, it's actually another way of developing love and compassion is to look at him across the room and see his face struggling. And I'm struggling. And I realize, like, we're both caught in a story. And learning how to say that has been so freeing and healing for me. And I think for us.

[Koshin Paley Ellison]

So I'm right now caught in this moment of deep admiration for Cochin's ability to just put it out there, you know, so. So clearly, with such intellect. Use that word with such a learned person that he is. I'm just. I sometimes sit next and think, wow, how can. How does he put all that together so system so quickly? And it's not coming from a place of envy or jealousy or anything. It's coming from this place of deep, deep love. Wow. Look how different we are. How this is work for 23 years. I come from this very deep feeling place. Coaching comes from this very deep place of intellect and also feeling. Coaching has this depth of feelings too. Not as deep as mine, you understand, but.

[Dr. Bianca Harris]

Unbelievable.

[Koshin Paley Ellison]

Unbelievable. But I think first it's about playing it. Being able to play in the sandpit together and also know when that sandpit turns to shit and being able to stay in that too.

[Dr. Bianca Harris]

It's like, yeah, it'd be uncomfortable together. Yeah, I'd be like, yeah, that's another huge.

[Chodo Robert Campbell]

It's a big one.

[Koshin Paley Ellison]

Huge, huge dump.

[Dr. Bianca Harris]

Huge, huge dump. No. But to be willing to be uncomfortable together and awkward together is to me, another mark of love. Like, wow, this is so uncomfortable. We don't know where it's going and we're both feeling awkward and uncomfortable and how do we care for one another.

[Koshin Paley Ellison]

And every single morning before you leave the house, I love you.

[Dr. Bianca Harris]

I never leave the house. This is another important thing I learned actually in the emergency department. I never leave the house without holding his face and telling him how much I love him. Because I'm very aware from working in the emergency department how many people, loved ones or friends, would come in and be like, I can't believe the last conversation we had. Or like, they were leaving the house this morning. I was like, fuck off. Or like, whatever that is. They just weren't caring for each other. So I always appreciating that it might be our last time. So I always want to leave the house while letting him know exactly how I feel. So I feel like actually that's a pretty awesome relationship thing. So if you want a relationship hack, you know, to me, it's like, have you told the person that you love exactly how you love them? Today doesn't matter.

[Chodo Robert Campbell]

Do you do the same, Jodo?

[Koshin Paley Ellison]

Not as willingly, should we say, or as easily as potion can do it again. I didn't grow up with that language. I wasn't raised to that kind of language of I love you and I'm going to miss you and hurry home or anything like that. So it is a. It's a task sometimes. But I do you know what? Do I say it enough? Not enough, but I do say it.

[Dr. Bianca Harris]

You could use a little work.

[Koshin Paley Ellison]

I could use a little work.

[Dr. Bianca Harris]

You're perfect and complete, lacking nothing. And you could use a little work. As Shunru Suzuki says, we all can. But the reality Is me, too.

[Chodo Robert Campbell]

Yeah.

[Dan Harris]

But I really relate to Chodo on this one.

[Dr. Bianca Harris]

No, I know.

[Dan Harris]

I know it's gonna surprise you, Bianca. I. This is my term I'll use about myself is like, I bump up against a wall of, like, stinginess. You know, I don't want to do it right, especially if I feel like I'm supposed to. There was a New Yorker cartoon where the wife says to the husband, or might have been in reverse, the husband's saying it to the wife. One of the people in the panel says, I love you, and the other person says, stop threatening me, which I fucking love.

[Koshin Paley Ellison]

I love that. That's it for me.

[Dan Harris]

You wanted to come back to operating manual, Bianca?

[Koshin Paley Ellison]

Yeah, please.

[Chodo Robert Campbell]

Yeah. I think that's a really important hack, and this is built into what you were saying. But you have to know what you're oper manual is. And I think that takes work, the work you're talking about, and that takes very individual work. Your partner is not there to sort of receive your trauma and help you figure it out. You know, it took a long time for me to understand in a way that. That your partner can't. Can't be everything for you. It shouldn't be everything for you. And you have to figure out this shit on your own, but also not to sort of indulge it so much, that you aren't open to change and growth. And one of the things that I was really attracted to early on, that continues, even if it's really not easy, is that because of our differences really just in how, you know, just in our. In our affect, a lot of the times it does force me to pause and look at what I'm feeling and what I'm expecting, or, you know, he'll have expectations of me that, you know, what, Maybe in my dreams, my better self would actually be like that. So what could feel like an unfair request if I stop and think about it, like, I kind of want to be like that. So it does push me to leave some of my shit behind. So the operating manual has to be informed but flexible. And I think that's really important because there's so much you can get out of your partner in terms of feeding back on your own happiness, I guess, as an individual.

[Dan Harris]

Yeah. Michael Vincent Miller talks a lot about how romantic relationships are like the crucible for growth is. You know, there's. And he's got this really incisive critique of the modern, you know, romantic industrial complex, which sells this idea that, you know, as he says, we're going to go from one enchanted evening to happily ever after, which. And it's. You know, we talk about falling in love as. It's as if it's simply a matter of gravity. Nobody's talking about the work that is involved here. And that work that Miller emphasizes, I think, so skillfully is like. And I really like this reframing is. There's a lot for you in this work. If you're looking to get happier, get stronger, get healthier, there's an opportunity right there in your relationship.

[Dr. Bianca Harris]

Yeah. Both have to be willing, because we know plenty of relationships where, you know, one partner is willing or one of them isn't, or, you know, and we can. It's so easy to fall into complacency also.

[Koshin Paley Ellison]

Right.

[Dr. Bianca Harris]

And so I think the shared willingness and the shared value, I just feel like we can't underscore that enough, like, how critical that is, like, to not only just say, like, oh, yeah, I'm into growing, but this is how I'd like to grow now. Right. And how I want to continue to grow and open up. So I just feel like that is so important and vital. The shared vitality, individually and as a couple is a beautiful and challenging and adventurous thing.

[Koshin Paley Ellison]

I'm just thinking of our age difference for almost 20 years apart. Almost. And the work that comes more easily, I would think, to caution, than it does to me being 20 years older and maybe more set in my ways and less open to new ways looking at things. And that's not to say that it's healthy or correct or in any way, but it's also one of those things where I can be really curmudgeonly. Like, it comes with age. You get to be a certain age. You get to be a curmudgeon.

[Dr. Bianca Harris]

You can use age as an excuse.

[Koshin Paley Ellison]

Yeah.

[Dr. Bianca Harris]

You also can age and keep growing.

[Koshin Paley Ellison]

So I'm not saying I can't.

[Dr. Bianca Harris]

I'm just saying.

[Koshin Paley Ellison]

Not saying I can't. And I'm not saying I'm not. It takes a little more time to, like, acquiesce.

[Dr. Bianca Harris]

Good for you.

[Koshin Paley Ellison]

Good for me. It's good for you, too. It's like. It's good for you, too.

[Chodo Robert Campbell]

It's good for us, for sure.

[Koshin Paley Ellison]

Sometimes it's so funny because that reversal role. Sometimes I'm the best father. You know, it's like his daddy. And other times I'm like, he's the best. He's like, my. He's like the best daddy. You know, it's like, daddy's such a gay thing. Best father. I don't homosexual we are homosexuals.

[Dan Harris]

Wait a minute. You guys are gay?

[Koshin Paley Ellison]

You do know. Are you gay?

[Dr. Bianca Harris]

It's not like a coming out episode.

[Dan Harris]

I know, I know.

[Koshin Paley Ellison]

Yes, that is that I think of. Yeah, yeah, Daddy.

[Chodo Robert Campbell]

I will not call you Daddy, Dan. Just so you know.

[Koshin Paley Ellison]

No, it wouldn't work if you called him Daddy. I have to call him Daddy. Daddy. Daddy debianca. You can call him Daddy. Dad. Dan. Daddy. Daddy. Dad. No, it's not working.

[Chodo Robert Campbell]

Like, not Daddy.

[Koshin Paley Ellison]

Not landing. Not landing.

[Chodo Robert Campbell]

No, no.

[Dan Harris]

First time Alexander called me Daddy, it was like, oh, that felt like closer to my real name than Dan. Like, oh yeah, that's who I am.

[Koshin Paley Ellison]

Wow, nice. What's happened? The first time I called you Daddy.

[Dan Harris]

Might have been a little less wholesome, but beautiful nonetheless.

[Dr. Bianca Harris]

It was horrible.

[Koshin Paley Ellison]

Don't be rude. We're in restaurants. My dad is picking up the checks.

[Dan Harris]

Okay, I'll replace the word wholesome with G rated instead of R rated. This has been amazing. It feels complete to me. But I do want to just check with the three of you that whether there's something you wanted to talk about that we haven't had a chance to hit.

[Koshin Paley Ellison]

No, I think it's.

[Chodo Robert Campbell]

I mean, I feel like there could always be a part. 2, 3, 4, 5, 6.

[Dan Harris]

And they're willing.

[Chodo Robert Campbell]

It just feels like an ongoing conversation.

[Koshin Paley Ellison]

Yes, but total curmudgeon.

[Dan Harris]

One final, final question here is. And I'll direct it to you, Koshin, but you can take it if you want. Chodo is just. Can you remind everybody about all the amazing things that the New York Zen center for Contemplative Care does in the world in case they want to learn more about you guys and also maybe throw in the books that you've written.

[Dr. Bianca Harris]

So, New York Zen center for Contemplative Care, we do three main things. One of them is we have Zen practice. For anyone who's interested in Zen practice, we have sitting every day and Zen retreats and half day retreats once a month as well as two times a year. We have a 90 day practice period. So to deepen our practice. So everyone is welcome. The second thing, we have our education program. So we have a certificate in Sotozen Buddhist Studies as well as a Master's program. And along with the program that we've talked about, which is Foundations in Contemplative Care, which is really about bringing your values and what you're doing together through studying together and serving at the bedside. And the last large education program we have is called the Contemplative Medicine Fellowship. And we're delighted to be with some of our shared friends and faculty here, which is for any physicians, nurse practitioners, or physician assistants who want to spend a year of really learning what it means to be in fellowship together, to really redefine and reclaim what medicine is and to use contemplation to actually be part of the medicine to how we engage and lead, work with our resilience. And then we also do care programs. So through our students offering care at the bedside as well as CHODO leads bereavement support both in groups and individually. And we also companion people through the advent of a serious diagnosis, through their dying process, and caring for their loved ones afterwards in bereavement. So it's a beautiful opportunity. And our website is called zencare.org and I've edited a book that many people find very helpful called Awake at the Contemplative Teachings on Palliative and End of life care, which Mr. Campbell has a beautiful essay in also. And there are two other books. One is called Wholehearted Slow Down, Help Out, Wake up, which is about living an ethical life and Untangled Walking the Eighth old Path of Clarity, courage and Compassion, which is really about how do we untangle our suffering through relationship like what we've been talking about here. And it's through Shakyamuni Buddha's historical Buddha's teaching of the four nobilities of suffering, the causes of suffering, how we can change, and the path itself. So they're good resources and main thing is to live our lives fully and care for one another.

[Dan Harris]

Just a double click on. I just want to say that everybody should check out the New York Zen center, the incredible resources there. And I also highly recommend all of Koshen's books and I really recommend Chodo's book even though it's not out yet.

[Koshin Paley Ellison]

Two working titles.

[Dan Harris]

Dan, you do what are to blame on me. I know one of them. You will never amount to anything in this one.

[Koshin Paley Ellison]

Nothing in this life.

[Dan Harris]

Yeah.

[Koshin Paley Ellison]

And the next one is you die more than once Zen.

[Dan Harris]

I like them both. I would vote for the first one, but I mean I buy either of.

[Koshin Paley Ellison]

Those books you die more than one sin in the art of survival. Something like.

[Dan Harris]

I like that.

[Koshin Paley Ellison]

Yeah. You will achieve nothing in this type. It's pretty nice. I like that though. Well, the other one was remember was Disco Drugs, Dancing and Dharma or something like that. Disco Drugs. Disco Drugs, Drama and Dharma.

[Chodo Robert Campbell]

That'll sell.

[Dan Harris]

Thank you all for doing this. Love you guys.

[Koshin Paley Ellison]

Love you, love you, love you. And let's not forget our double date in real life.

[Dan Harris]

Thanks again to Koshin and Chodo. I love talking to those guys. There were a few past episodes of this show that were either referenced directly or implicitly during this conversation. I just want to let you know that I will drop some links in the show notes if you want to check them out, including an interview with Dr. Richard Schwartz, the originator of IFS My Past Interviews with Koshen, past interviews with Jerry Colonna, Dr. Bruce Perry, and Evelyn Tribley. If you're a [e-mail], you will have already received a cheat sheet of today's episode, which sums up all of the key takeaways and includes a full transcript. Subscribers also get live AMAs with me and much more, so come check it out. Before I go, I want to thank everybody who works so hard on this show. Our producers are Tara Anderson, Caroline Keenan and Eleanor Vasily. Our recording and engineering is handled by the great folks over at Pod People. Lauren Smith is our production manager, Marissa Schneiderman is our senior producer, DJ Cashmere is our executive producer and Nick Thorburn of the band Islands wrote our theme. If you like 10% happier, and I hope you do, you can listen early and ad free right now by joining Wondery plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. Prime members can listen ad free on Amazon Music. Before you go, tell us about yourself by filling out a short [e-mail] survey.

[Keke Palmer]

Hey everyone, it's your girl, Keke Palmer. Did you know I host a podcast called Baby this is Keke Palmer and you're not going to believe the conversations I've had. Like is Onlyfans only bad. How has dating changed in the digital age? What's the deal with Disney adults? I've talked to John Stamos, the vp, Kamala Hearst, to Jordan Peele, Raven Simone, and yes, the one and only Jamila Jamil. And just wait until you hear our conversation. We talk Twitter drama, bad dates, and then time. How the hell do you actually get sexy? Like, what the hell does that mean? Like, I know how to be funny. I know how to be like. You know what I'm saying?

[Koshin Paley Ellison]

Exactly.

[Keke Palmer]

Like I don't really know how to be like and take it. I'm not robbing Givens. You know, it's like, how do people do that?

[Chodo Robert Campbell]

I've been in this situation too many times and not not felt any of those things.

[Brooke Zifrin]

The dull eyes, the quiet. Like I've never been quiet a moment.

[Chodo Robert Campbell]

In my fucking life.

[Keke Palmer]

Yes on Baby this is Keke Palmer. No topic is off limits. Follow Baby this is Keke Palmer on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcast. You can listen early and ad free right now by joining Wondery.

[Brooke Zifrin]

Being an actual royal is never about finding your happy ending. But the worst part is if they step out of line or fall in love with the wrong person, it changes.

[Chodo Robert Campbell]

The course of history.

[Brooke Zifrin]

I'm Arisha Skidmore Williams.

[Chodo Robert Campbell]

And I'm Brooke Zifrin.

[Brooke Zifrin]

We've been telling the stories of the rich and famous on the hit Wondery show, Even the Rich and talking about the latest celebrity news on rich and daily. We're going all over the world on our new show, Even the Royals.

[Chodo Robert Campbell]

We'll be diving headfirst into the lives of the world's kings, queens and all.

[Brooke Zifrin]

The wannabes in their orbit throughout history.

[Chodo Robert Campbell]

Think succession. Meet meets the crown meets real life.

[Brooke Zifrin]

We're going to pull back the gilded curtain and show how royal status might be bright and shiny, but it comes at the expense of, well, everything else, like your freedom, your privacy, and sometimes even your head. Follow even the royals on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to even the royals early and ad free right now by joining Wondery.