Podcast Summary: How To Make a Marriage Work | Chodo Robert Campbell and Koshin Paley Ellison (Co-Interviewed by Dr. Bianca Harris)

Released on February 12, 2025

Introduction

In this heartfelt and insightful episode of 10% Happier with Dan Harris, host Dan Harris, along with his wife Dr. Bianca Harris, engages in a deep conversation with their close friends Koshin Paley Ellison and Chodo Robert Campbell—married Zen priests and directors of the New York Zen Center for Contemplative Care. The episode delves into the intricacies of maintaining a healthy marriage, especially when both partners come from backgrounds marked by significant trauma. The discussion is enriched with humor, personal anecdotes, and profound insights into building and sustaining meaningful relationships.

Key Topics

1. Understanding Early Childhood Trauma in Relationships

   The conversation begins with Koshin sharing his childhood experiences, highlighting how early trauma can manifest in adult relationships. Koshin describes his upbringing with an unstable single mother, fostering a deep-seated fear of unpredictability and abandonment.

   • Chodo Robert Campbell (07:07): "For me, any kind of surprise, any change for me personally, given my background, my childhood stuff? If you're going to change something, let me know or ask me first because I can't take it."

   This foundational understanding sets the stage for discussing how past traumas influence current relationship dynamics.

2. Establishing and Respecting Relationship Rules

   To navigate their unique challenges, Koshin and Chodo have developed a set of "rules of the road." These rules emphasize the importance of seeking permission and maintaining open communication to prevent misunderstandings.

   • Koshin Paley Ellison (11:12): "Seek permission. No, the other rules are such. Yeah, it's to ask. To ask me if I would like."

   Dr. Bianca highlights the effectiveness of these rules in keeping their 23-year marriage strong, allowing them to laugh and reset during conflicts.

   • Dr. Bianca Harris (11:43): "And we can laugh about it too when there's an impasse and he'll get angry. And then we can be like, oh, the rules. We forgot the rules."

3. The Role of Humor in Relationships

   Humor emerges as a crucial tool for the couple to diffuse tension and maintain a loving connection even during disagreements.

   • Dr. Bianca Harris (12:02): "Having a sense of humor in our relationship has been incredibly important. It allows us to be real and loving and stay in the relationship when things are tricky."

   By naming their internal struggles humorously (e.g., "Whiplash Willie," "Negative Nigel"), they create a buffer that prevents personal attacks and fosters mutual understanding.

4. Personal Growth and External Work

   Both partners emphasize the necessity of individual work outside the relationship to ensure personal well-being and relational health.

   • Dr. Bianca Harris (43:46): "Finding therapy, finding a meditation practice both individually and finding ways to connect together around shared exploration is really, really, to me, the reason why our relationship works."

   This commitment to self-improvement and shared growth opportunities reinforces their bond and resilience.

5. Compassion and Understanding Partner's Operating Manuals

   The discussion touches on the importance of understanding each other's emotional and psychological frameworks—their "operating manuals."

   • Dan Harris (18:39): "We're asking the wrong question in relationships, romantic or otherwise. Often we ask, what's the matter with you? And instead, we should be asking, what happened to you?"

   By shifting the focus from blame to understanding, couples can navigate conflicts more empathetically.

6. Balancing Personal Needs and Partnership

   Koshin and Chodo explore the delicate balance between attending to personal needs and fostering a collaborative partnership.

   • Koshin Paley Ellison (08:24): "Let's just maybe a touch of control."

   They discuss how respecting each other's autonomy while supporting one another's vulnerabilities is vital for a healthy relationship.

7. Navigating Emotional Triggers and Responses

   The episode delves into how past experiences influence present reactions, particularly in high-stress situations like potential abandonment or engulfment fears.

   • Dan Harris (37:19): "We're asking the wrong question in relationships... Instead, we should be asking, what happened to you."

   Understanding these triggers allows couples to respond with greater sensitivity and reduce reactive behaviors.

8. Practical Advice for Maintaining Healthy Relationships

   Towards the end, Dan prompts Koshin and Chodo to share actionable advice for listeners seeking to strengthen their relationships. The key takeaways include:

   • Shared Values and Willingness to Grow: Engaging in joint practices like therapy or meditation to align and support each other's growth.

   • Compassionate Communication: Recognizing and addressing each partner's challenging aspects without personalizing conflicts.

   • Regular Expressions of Love: Consistently communicating affection and appreciation to maintain emotional connection.

   • Flexibility in Operating Manuals: Creating adaptable guidelines that honor both partners' needs and promote mutual respect.

   • Dr. Bianca Harris (73:15): "Both have to be willing, because we know plenty of relationships where one partner is willing or one of them isn't... It's critical to have a shared willingness and shared value."

Notable Quotes

• Chodo Robert Campbell (06:40): "I have always felt, and I know it's not about me, that I'm just putting my projections onto others."

• Dr. Bianca Harris (25:15): "Two wounded warriors meeting."

• Koshin Paley Ellison (54:56): "Being with someone who's dying... it's so fucking profound. There's nothing else like it. It's just here and now."

• Chodo Robert Campbell (73:28): "I come from this very deep feeling place, this place of intuition and instinct. It's all my shit."

• Dan Harris (37:19): "Understanding your partner's black bag—the invisible baggage of their past—is crucial for a smooth ride in your relationship."

Conclusion

This episode offers a candid exploration of the complexities inherent in long-term relationships, especially when both partners carry the weight of past traumas. Through the wisdom of Koshin and Chodo, listeners gain valuable insights into the importance of communication, humor, personal growth, and mutual compassion. The conversation underscores that maintaining a healthy marriage requires continuous effort, understanding, and a willingness to navigate discomfort together. For anyone seeking to enrich their romantic relationships, this episode serves as both a guide and an inspiration.

Additional Resources

• New York Zen Center for Contemplative Care: Directed by Koshin and Chodo, the center offers Zen practices, education programs, and care services focusing on contemplative care in medical settings. zencare.org

• Books Recommended by Guests:

  • Wholehearted Slow Down, Help Out, Wake Up by Koshin Paley Ellison
  • Untangled: Walking the Eighth Path of Clarity, Courage, and Compassion by Chodo Robert Campbell

Listeners are encouraged to explore these resources to further their understanding and practice of maintaining healthy, compassionate relationships.