Carol Robin (4:12)

Good to be here.

David Bradford (4:13)

Thanks, Dan.

Dan Harris (4:15)

So, Carol, I'll start with you. What is Touchy Feely?

David Bradford (4:22)

Well, it's the affectionate term used by students at the Stanford Graduate School of Business for a course that David and I were very involved in for many years called Interpersonal Dynamics. That's the name of the course, and the students affectionately call it Touchy Feely, partly because we place such an emphasis on the use of feelings in being more interpersonally competent and building relationships. Which is why what we've dedicated our lives to helping people learn how to do and have now written a book about.

Dan Harris (4:57)

So, David, the students affectionately call it Teshy feely, sort of a mild mocking. And yet, as I understand it, it's a very popular course.

Carol Robin (5:07)

Absolutely, yes. I'm not sure they're knocking it. I think it's sort of a more affectionate, as Carol was saying, identification. So they say to each other, are you taking touchy feely next term? And it's sort of a way to convey their interest and involvement.

Dan Harris (5:23)

Staying with you for a second, David. What's the point of the course?

Carol Robin (5:26)

The point of the course is to help students develop the competencies to build more open, authentic relationships, not just with the other students in their section in their group, but also afterwards and one of the things we're excited about is not only the impact it has on students, but reports we hear from alumni of them using it decades later on their job and their marriage with friends and so on. So it's a course that has lasting power and that's the excitement for us.

Dan Harris (6:01)

Yeah, I mean, I get excited when I hear you talk. And I would imagine the question that I'm about to ask is one you must field reasonably frequently, which is, why is this just being taught at Stanford Business School? This feels like this kind of interpersonal hygiene, or, you know, 101 of human interaction should be taught in every elementary school planet wide. Carol, do you agree or disagree?

David Bradford (6:31)

First of all, could not agree with you more. Just like every child should be taught to meditate, in my opinion. And in fact, the way we got talked into writing the book was that our editor said, how come the only people who get to learn this are those that are privileged and lucky enough to go to Stanford Graduate School of Business? And we said, well, it's very hard stuff to learn in a book. You actually have to do it. You can't just read about it. And that's why it took us four years to write the book, so that we could do justice to the work. And I think that you're absolutely right that our dream for the book is that the book creates momentum for this being taught in many, many, many more places and learned by many, many more people.

Carol Robin (7:19)

And if I could add to that, it is taught at other schools, it's taught at Yale, ucla, other places, but not as intensively as it is at Stanford. And one of the reasons why is that this requires special competencies in teaching it. It's not just knowing the conceptual material of interpersonal relations. You've got to do it yourself. And not many faculty have these sort of training in how to teach this that Carol and I and a few others have.

Dan Harris (7:53)

But that strikes me as a huge problem. I mean, just a quick anecdote here. I may have said this on the show before, so if I have, I apologize, but a couple years ago, my wife and I went and did some couples counseling. Side note to the side note, I feel this compulsion to add, we weren't having some big marital difficulties. We were kind of doing it for hygiene reasons. There we go with that word again. But the side notes. The side note is that I feel like the stink that couples counseling has on it needs to be totally ignored because it's an incredibly useful thing to do for your relationship. And one of the things that our therapist said to us, that has always stuck with me. His name is Michael Vincent Miller, by the way. Just brilliant guy. He said, nobody teaches us how to do relationships. And he was talking about romantic relationships. He's absolutely right about that. Our teachers there are parents, often deeply flawed humans. Well, all humans are the movies, which is, you know, don't get me started. There is a lot that happens after the you complete me stage of relationships. But he was not only right about romantic relationships, he's right about nobody teaches us how to interact with the barista either. I mean, like, the whole range of human interactions, we're just making it up as we go. And often I think, well, I'll speak from personal experience. Often in my case, not very well.

David Bradford (9:10)

Well, first of all, I want to connect a few things that you've just said, which is, it's hard to teach if you don't model it. We have to start by modeling what we believe creates connection. That begins with vulnerability and a willingness to allow ourselves to be known and seen. Which, by the way, most faculty in most academic institutions of higher learning, especially if they're elite, is the very unlikely way that they're going to show up. So you just talked about how do we learn about relationships? We learn from watching. And for me, personally, when I started in business, because I'm not a career academic, when I started in business, the first thing I learned was, whatever you do, leave your feelings at the door. There is no place in business for feelings. And then I discovered that it's pretty hard to motivate people and inspire people, much less be seen as a human being in the absence of speaking about feelings. But I learned that the hard way, and it wasn't because it was modeled to me. So back to what David just said. You know, it takes investment and even more than that, experimentation. A willingness to be curious about yourself and about others. That's why it has such great overlap with mindfulness, a willingness to think, well, I wonder if I tell you a little bit more about me, whether you'll be a little more open to telling me a little more about you. And that might be the beginning, including with the barista. You know, I was at a Starbucks the other day, and I said to the barista, so, how are you today? And she said, fine. And I said, just fine. What's making it fine? I don't think anybody had even asked her something like that ever. And I said, you know, fine. That has a big gradient.

Dan Harris (11:09)

How'd that go down?

David Bradford (11:11)

It was great. She said, well, actually, I'm good. I said, oh, wonderful. So your fine was good. What's making your day good? Well, I got to come in late, which meant I got to see my daughter before I left today. And it was so much fun. And we played, and it was a great way to start the day. I was like, well, thank you for sharing that with me. And then she said, what about you? How's your day? It's not rocket science. But by the way, I said, it's not rocket science once when I was doing a workshop for a bunch of people at NASA, but to the management team at NASA, and they said, oh, God, Carol, this is so much harder than rocket science.

Dan Harris (11:49)

I once saw a cartoon that was hanging in an edit room at a TV station in the newsroom, and it had two scientists talking to each other, and they looked at each other, and one turned to the other and said, I mean, it's not television news. But back to the barista. Not everybody would like it if you gave him the third degree while you're ordering your latte or whatever it is you imbibe.

David Bradford (12:18)

That's true. And, David, you might want to talk about. That's why we talk about two antenna. And we could call this interpersonal mindfulness, not just interpersonal dynamics. You want to talk about why we talk about two antennae, David?

Carol Robin (12:32)

Yeah. Is that every relationship is different. We don't teach a set way to do it. We teach a way on how you can find out what works for you and works for the other person. So the two antennae that Carol was referring to is one is being aware of yourself. What are my needs? What do I want? And then being aware of the other person. What's their reaction? So when Carol told that story, the barista responded, it sounds like. And Carol picked up the cue that she could go further. So she wasn't, in a sense, into arrogating her. Now, my guess is if, knowing Carol and her competencies, if the barista would have said, ah, I'm fine. Okay, now, what do you want in your drink? Carol would have dropped it. So we need to have both of those sensitivities. And you were saying before, all of this should be taught. And that's what the course teaches. The course teaches students to be more aware of themselves, in touch with their feelings, knowing how to raise issues that are not attacking or accusatory or too imposing, and how to pick up cues from the other person so that you can build the relationship you want with each person. And that'll be different with each person.

Dan Harris (13:52)

How do you teach this well, that's.

Carol Robin (13:57)

The exciting part about the course. So people say, well, what sort of exercises, what sort of cases do you use, what sort of simulations? And the wonderful thing about this course is we don't have to do any of that. The students are in 12 person groups that meet over 10 weeks. And their job is to look at their interactions with each other and get feedback from their peers. And what we do is we build a vacuum. We don't give an agenda. There's not a leader. Their task is to build a learning group, which isn't a very useful assignment. And then they struggle, and one person initiates something, rams it down other people's throat. The other person has a reaction, gives them feedback, and we're off and running. So it's very much what we say here and now. Learning. Here's how I'm reacting to your behavior right here in the present. And it's very powerful, it's very personal, and it's very affirming. Because as Carol was saying, as we show more of ourselves, it turns out that who we really are is usually much more attractive, influential than who we pretend to be.

Dan Harris (15:16)

Just so I'm clear on this. So you create these 12 person groups and you give them a task.

Carol Robin (15:20)

Nope.

Dan Harris (15:21)

And then, okay, what we do is.

David Bradford (15:23)

We tell them we are deliberately not giving you a task other than to build a learning laboratory.

Dan Harris (15:31)

What does that even mean?

David Bradford (15:32)

Well, that's the first thing they say.

Dan Harris (15:34)

Okay.

David Bradford (15:35)

And we say, you each have some goals they've all come into the class with. You know, my goal every time I do one of these groups is to not suck all the oxygen out of the room and leave space for other people to talk. Someone else has a goal to initiate more and be more spontaneous. Isn't it great if we both find ourselves in the same group? Because I can. I can't work on mine unless they work on theirs. So we drop them in, we give them no task, and there's silence. And the Carols of the world are like, well, why don't we all go around and introduce each other? And the other people are like, well, who the heck appointed you leader? And then we're off to the races, as David said.

Dan Harris (16:20)

So you give them a deliberately opaque, ambiguous, non project, non task and let them hash it out.

Carol Robin (16:29)

Right?

David Bradford (16:29)

That's exactly right.

Carol Robin (16:30)

You see what it is. Every group needs to have leadership functions fulfilled, needs to have an agenda, and needs to have rules and procedures. We take those all away. We create a vacuum. And as nature abhors a vacuum, so do human beings. And then what comes out is what Carol just described, and that is real behavior. If we had a simulation, they'd be playing a role now. They're coming in as themselves, and that's what's so real and so powerful about it.

David Bradford (17:02)

And let's take that example just a little further, Dan, just to be clear. So I suggest. Let's go around. There's a few people who don't say anything, but they don't like the idea, but they don't say anything. And then people start introducing each other. And about four or five people later, you can't even remember what the first person said. And you're bored. Now you've got a choice. You have a choice to recognize, become aware that you're bored or irritated or whatever. And then you can decide to experiment with saying something. Gee, you know, I'm afraid to say this because I don't know how you're all going to feel about me, but I'm kind of bored. And then four other people say, wow, thank you so much for saying that. And it's all real time dynamics. And we're all getting to know each other very well very quickly. The real us.

Dan Harris (17:53)

But is there coaching or some sort of pedagogy that leads into this so that people understand how to do vulnerability correctly and we'll talk about that, or how to develop these 2 and 10 I that we all have but might not be aware of?

Carol Robin (18:09)

Well, there's a facilitator in each group.

Dan Harris (18:12)

Okay.

Carol Robin (18:13)

But the facilitator doesn't teach them, but ask questions. So I'm going to carry on the scenario that Carol started to build. So somebody comes in and says, well, I'm getting bored with this. And the person who initiates it says, well, if you've got a better idea, what the hell is it? And the person who interrupted said, what's the rule around here that I have to have a better idea? You see, they're involved. The facilitator is likely to say to the first person, how are you feeling? Well, I'm feeling that I tried. Well, that's not a feeling. What are you feeling? I'm feeling annoyed that I got corrected. And the other person who interrupted said, well, I'm feeling annoyed that you did this without checking with us. So they are learning that sharing their feelings, which is why the course is called touchy feely by the students. So they start to learn that's how we can communicate. That's how we can know each other, what we want, and what we don't want. So they learn from their experience. So when Carol said the assignment is to build a laboratory learning, and you were appropriately puzzled. This is the laboratory where they are discovering what sort of interaction works and what sort doesn't work. They learn from their experience. And you see what's powerful about that is that they can take that competency out of the group in later years. We have experiences all the time. Rarely do we learn from them. But our students learn how to learn from all the experiences they have. And that's why the course continues after.

Dan Harris (20:00)

The term is over, because every interaction is a moment to gather data about how you're feeling and how other people are feeling and the responses you have internally and externally to whatever moves you make. And so it sounds like the main skill you're teaching them is just to open up the data entry center instead of just moving through life as if every new interaction is a blank slate, you're constantly learning from every interaction so that you get better as you go.

David Bradford (20:33)

Exactly. We couldn't have said it better ourselves. Every interaction with another human being is an opportunity to learn not only about them, but about yourself.

Dan Harris (20:42)

Carol, you invoked the word mindfulness. I think you called it interpersonal mindfulness. Where I come from, meaning Buddhism, we meditate in order to learn how to be more aware of what's happening internally and externally, and both internally and externally. How do you teach people to develop interpersonal mindfulness in your course and in your book?

David Bradford (21:03)

It's through practice, in the same way that we learn to become more and more aware of our internal states through meditation. So it's in the doing. We're back to why it was so challenging to write a book. So I have an exchange with David, and first I learn to maybe take a moment and notice what's going on for me and notice what's going on for him. Instead of just, I'm just going to barrel along, and it only takes a moment. And we also establish a relationship where if I am barreling along, he can say, hold on, you left me back here. Can we take it back a few steps? Those are almost mechanics. Those are skills, those are competencies. And one of the great things about the group process that David was just talking about and that we encourage people to do in the book is that I believe I heard one thing and you believe you said something else. And isn't it great to have somebody else to both help you, but even if you don't have somebody else, for me to say, perfect example. I come into the kitchen, I Tell my husband, can I help you with that? He hears, you don't know what you're doing. And it wasn't until we both realized that what I was saying wasn't what he was hearing that we could resolve the pinch that arose from that. These are all techniques. These are all tools. We call those pinches, by the way. If you address something small when it just bothered you and annoyed you a little bit, your likelihood of that not turning into a big kaboom conflict is higher. So there are all kinds of ways in which we learn to be more interpersonally mindful and therefore competent.

Carol Robin (22:58)

And if I can add to that, one of the keys we can't stress enough is we urge people to. We constantly say, what are you feeling?

David Bradford (23:09)

What are you feeling right here, right now?

Carol Robin (23:12)

Right here, right now. And many people aren't aware, which is why in the appendix of the book, we have a long list of emotions. And we have a handout for the students. They look down, they say, I'm feeling anxious. That, in essence, is a way to become mindful about what's going on with me. Picking up on the example of Carol and I interacting, if she's coming in like a Sherman tank, I could say, not only, hey, wait a minute, but I can say, hey, what's going on with you? And so I want to know her feelings. And she may say, well, I'm really impatient because we haven't resolved this and we've come back to it a second time. And so now I know her feelings. So the mindfulness is within me. And it's a sensitivity to find out what's in the other one. And I sort of tell facilitators, there's only 2 or 3 comments you need to make. And the key one is you ask people, what are you feeling? And the other one says, well, I'm annoyed. And the second comment is, who are you annoyed about? And what are they doing? It's in a certain sense, very simple. But we are so educated, we complicate up the interactions and have to have logical reasons where if we stick with our feelings, it's much more intimate, makes stronger connections, allows us to be known, allows us to know the other.

Dan Harris (24:51)

Just to repeat that back to you. So I've got it. You're essentially recommending that we have this mantra, both internally and externally, of how are you feeling? The way to develop the aforementioned two antennae would be to get into the habit of regularly just asking yourself, how am I feeling? So, you know, and. And then asking other people while you're in conversation with them.

David Bradford (25:14)

Yep. Which, by the way, is curiosity, which is the other reason I invoke mindfulness. Oh, how am I feeling? And then how are you feeling? You're absolutely right. And then let that inform my choices in terms of where I go next.

Dan Harris (25:33)

I haven't taken your course, but I've done some work in this sphere, broadly speaking, some mindful communication, things like that. Do you ever feel like just having a quote unquote normal conversation where you're not checking on your feelings or anybody else's feelings and you're. You're not doing reflective listening or whatever, just like, quick moment of transaction. There's no feelings, no touchy feeliness whatsoever. Do you ever just, like, not want to just drop all of this stuff? I. I'm asking for a friend.

Carol Robin (26:03)

Yeah. I think most of our interactions it comes naturally. But if I'm aware of myself and I'm feeling this gnawing inside of me, I'm going to want to listen to that. If I'm noticing this interaction, the other person's frowning or seems to be holding back or has an edge to their tone, then I'm going to try and be aware. I think the other thing is that one of the effects of this is I get tired with superficial conversations. I can only take a couple of minutes of it, and then I want to have things a little more meaningful. And notice, with Carol's example, with a barista, a person she hadn't met before, she, for 30 seconds had a more meaningful conversation. And one of the real advantages, I find, without this becoming deep or heavy, that I can take many conversations and make it a little more meaningful, a little more connecting and a little more full of learning for me and the other.

Dan Harris (27:12)

But you don't feel like you need to be constantly on your game, constantly checking in with yourself and other people that have this sort of immaculate communication style. Like once in a while you can say, hey, just. Can you please pass me a fork?

Carol Robin (27:27)

Yeah, it's true. And there are many times, many. There are times in which I don't do it, when I should. And even my wife nodded frequently has said, you teach this stuff. Why don't you do it? So we're all human. But when you have taken this course and hopefully when you read the book, you have this in your backpack and when things start to go wrong, and then I can say, oop, sorry, hon. I guess I was pretty insensitive. Now will you say again what you were wanting to say and we could recover so you don't have to be perfect. You just have to be willing to take the risk and to recover. And that's part of what our students learn and what's in the book.

David Bradford (28:14)

And I do want to add that it isn't just when things have gone wrong, it's when things feel flat or when you want more. So back to your original question. It would be exhausting. It would be the equivalent of going and spending a year in a mountaintop in Nepal and doing nothing but meditating. You know, I can't imagine doing that. Personally, I admire people who have and that's not what we're advocating. But what we are advocating is that if you've got more tools, as David just said, if you've got more in your backpack, you can move your relationships along a continuum from contact with no connection or dysfunction to maybe functional and robust to exceptional and meaningful. That's the essence of the book. How do you move your relationships to the extent you both want to, along this continuum? At least you have a choice.

Dan Harris (29:14)

More of my conversation with Carol Robin and David Bradford right after this. Hey, before we get started, I want to make sure that you know about all the good things we've got going on@danharris.com that is my new ish online community built in partnership with Substack, where paid subscribers get cheat sheets and transcripts for every podcast episode. Plus I do regular live AMAs, that's ask me anything sessions where I take your questions and more. It's a lot of fun. You'll also get to meet virtually lots of other folks who take all of this stuff seriously. Go to danharris.com and check it out.

David Bradford (29:53)

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Dan Harris (30:18)

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David Bradford (30:19)

Deal ends March 13th. See Club for details.

Dan Harris (30:28)

You've made several references during this conversation to the challenge of turning this course into I want to try to kind of extract from you some this is always my agenda as an interviewer to extract from you some things that listeners can do in their lives now. And you've already given us one with the mantra of how Do I feel? How do you feel? What are some of the other practical tips that you provide in the book that we can do without being students at Stanford?

Carol Robin (31:02)

Okay, let me put that within a framework. What we found is there are six characteristics in building a relationship along that continuum, and those six give you clues. So the first one is, can I let you know more about myself? So what we encourage in the book is pick a person, a friend that you want, a deeper relationship. Is there something about yourself that's relevant to that relationship that you haven't shared? Well, that's easy to do, but it may be a little risky. The second dimension is, can you build conditions where the other person could be more themselves? So, as Carol said, can I be curious? Can I say, gee, Dan, how have you used meditation to have a more meaningful relationship with your partner? The third one is, can that build the trust so that when I share things about myself, what I'm worried about, what I'm concerned about, Carol won't use that against me and won't play gotcha? The fourth one is so a clue is, am I afraid with this relationship to share something? Do they do something that gets me a little worried? The fourth one is, can we be honest and not hold back? Are there things that are relevant to our interaction that I haven't shared? These are all tips. The fifth one is, can we lean into disagreements and conflict? Am I sitting on something in my relationship with Carol which I consider an exceptional one? Is she doing something that might be bothering me? Have I held back on that? Do I want to take the risk of saying, hey, Carol, it's a little hard, but I want to raise this. And I think the final one is, can I help the other person grow and develop? You see, we hold all sorts of information about what the other person does well and doesn't do so well, but we rarely say it can I? Because I deeply care about Carol. Say, Carol, when you do X, I think you limit yourself. I think that's an act of kindness. And he has, and she has too. So you see, those are all tips, but they all come from the basic model of the process of building a relationship is the process of learning. You have to do it in order to learn.

Dan Harris (33:30)

Let me dig in on those. And just before I do, put a fine point on it. You've both used this term exceptional relationship. That is a key term in your schema, you know, in your system. And you, David, just listed what you call the six hallmarks of exceptional relationships. Exceptional relationships are the positive end of the Sort of the continuum that you described earlier. So let me start with number one, the first of the six hallmarks, which is that you can be more fully yourself and so can the other person. And this gets to vulnerability, which was invoked early on in the conversation, you know, sort of being honest, sharing something that might be a little risky. And I'm just wondering about the do's and don'ts. Carol, maybe you can take this of vulnerability because it seems like, you know, and I'm Brene Brown, who's kind of the person most publicly associated with the concept of vulnerability and who's written a bunch of best selling books and has been on this show. She often talks about like, yeah, vulnerability is not just randomly bleeding all over the place.

David Bradford (34:31)

Right, right. So that's why David said sharing something about yourself that's relevant to the relationship. Beyond that, I'll add that one of the models that we use, and a tip, a useful tip perhaps for your listeners, is using what we call the 15% rule, which is if you imagine three concentric circles and the circle in the middle is your safety zone, where you don't think twice about what you're going to say or what you're going to share. And on the extreme end is your danger zone. In a million years you'd never say that. There's this circle in the middle which is your learning zone. And we used to tell our students, you're not going to learn anything. And that's basic research on education is you got to step outside your comfort zone to learn something. However, our students used to say, but the minute I'm outside my comfort zone and I think about saying something and sharing something, how do I know I'm not in my danger zone? And so we came up with this 15% rule. Step A little bit outside your comfort zone, you're unlikely to freak yourself or the other person out. And then you can see what happens and assess. And a funny thing happens. I shared a little bit with you. I made myself a little vulnerable with you. Nine times out of ten you'll reciprocate, you'll make yourself a little vulnerable with me and then both of our safety zones with each other, only with each other. Back to what David said. Every relationship is different, has grown a little bit, and then we take another 15% step, and that's how we build more and more reciprocal vulnerability, starting with our own disclosure.

Dan Harris (36:07)

Don't you think it would have been catchier if you, if you called it 10%?

Carol Robin (36:14)

Well, maybe we should have 15% happiness. That's the other way to go, dad.

Dan Harris (36:21)

I've told this story many times that when I was Preparing to release 10% happier, my publisher tried to bargain me up to 20 or 30% too much. I said, you don't get the joke.

David Bradford (36:32)

Yeah.

Carol Robin (36:36)

So, Dan, if I can build on what Carol said and come back to vulnerability. Vulnerability has a bad rap. And one of the exercises we do in class is we put that word on the board and we say to students, what do you associate to that? And there's the usual stuff. Weakness, frailty, failure. And then at some point, a student raises their hand and says, courage, strength. And I think it takes strength and courage to share something that may lead you to judge me negatively. That's our fear that we'll be judged negatively. Now, again, I want to really emphasize the 15% rule. You don't share the sort of things that will freak you and the other out. But we tend to play it so safe. And I think most people are stronger than they think they are. And that's what they discover in the course. Hey, I can do more than I thought I could. I can share this. When I thought I couldn't, I could share that. I'm a little scared about what's happening in the group now. I think it takes strength to say that the safety thing is to just stay silent. So vulnerability I want to define as it takes courage to take the risk of letting you know something about myself where you may judge me negatively, but I feel good enough about myself that even if you do, I know I'm not going to be destroyed.

David Bradford (38:10)

And the reason the course is so affirming is that I share this. And it turns out you like me even more or you feel even more compelled by me. And I've spent my whole life hiding this part of me believing that I'd be judged negatively, only to find out that it's one of my strengths.

Dan Harris (38:29)

Okay, so that gets us to the second of the hallmarks, which is how you can engender in others the willingness to be vulnerable. And I'm guessing, but you'll correct me, that the answer, at least in part, is you going first. You know, you sharing something makes other people more likely to do it.

Carol Robin (38:49)

Yeah, that's certainly true, because saying to the other person, will, you go first? I'm going to play it safe, doesn't work very well. But the other thing, and it's back to what Carol said about curiosity. I think other people wonder, do you really want to know about me? And often we don't, which is why Relationships don't develop. Can we be curious? So Carol was curious with Barista. If there would have been more time, she might have said, well, what's it like with your daughter? How does it feel leaving her at home? What is it like when you go back? So if you are truly curious and ask open ended questions, you're conveying, I really want to know you. And when people do that, they're going to feel freer to tell you about themselves. And I think that Barista said, well, thank you. And then she returned the compliment. So again, do we really want to know other people? And I'm sure you've experienced it, but I have where the other person asks a question and, you know, they just want me to end so they can talk about themselves. That doesn't get me to be open.

Dan Harris (40:03)

Well, picking up on that, here's another asking for a friend question. I have had the experience of being in a situation where somebody's trying to get to know me and I don't have the energy or bandwidth or I'm not in the mood or whatever. And then I kind of hate myself for not, you know, being available, et cetera, et cetera. And I kind of get into this spiral. What are your recommendations for people who might find themselves in that kind of frosty situation?

David Bradford (40:34)

You know, I don't think there's anything more efficient than the truth or more helpful to a relationship than saying what's going on? You know, I wish I had the energy for this. Right now I feel bad that I don't. And right now I just don't Imagine how refreshing it would be if we felt empowered enough to say something like that. And by the way, it doesn't mean I'm never going to have the energy. And my experience right now is I'm appreciating your curiosity. I hear you wanting to know more about me and I don't have it to give right now.

Carol Robin (41:13)

And what is interesting is that statement, I don't want to reveal myself is very revealing. So in a paradoxical sense, Carol's wonderful answer. She's saying, I'm not going to share about myself. And I'm sharing about myself by talking about that.

Dan Harris (41:32)

Right.

Carol Robin (41:33)

And that is very much a here and now connecting sort of statement.

Dan Harris (41:39)

That's actually the fourth hallmark of exceptional relationships. You can be honest with each other.

Carol Robin (41:43)

Yes.

Dan Harris (41:44)

I want to ask you about the fifth hallmark because I think this is very rich territory. I'm interested to hear. What do you guys teach about dealing with conflict productively? David's laughing. You can't see him, listeners.

Carol Robin (41:57)

We're both laughing. Well, the first thing is we treat conflict as a positive thing, not as a negative thing. So let me use an analogy, which I love. So, Dan, you're driving to work, and the wheels are a little wobbly, the steering's a little loose, and there's knocking in the motor. You don't say, bad car, bad car. You say, I got to get this fixed. So if there's conflict. And in writing the book over four years, Carol and I have had many disagreements. We see those disagreements as a sign that something's going on that we need to deal with. Are we not really hearing each other? Do we feel that our contribution is being ignored? Does one person feel that the other gets their way all the time rather than just blaming the other person? Can we see that as a sign that we need to work on this? And can we start to explore what's going on, starting with our feelings? Hey, I'm feeling annoyed at this. What's going on with you, Carol? And Carol says, well, I'm also feeling annoyed. And then we can say, well, what is it that's going on that's annoying both of us? And that's productive. That's useful. If we would have been silent and not had any conflict, it would have been far, far worse.

David Bradford (43:26)

We would have never finished the book.

Dan Harris (43:30)

Yes, yes, yes. And I know you're not supposed to say no, but you're supposed to say yes. And so, yes. And I understand that talking about your feelings is a step in the right direction. It is not uncommon for me. If somebody says they're feeling, I don't know, shut down or, you know, unsafe to say something, or I feel like you're being dismissive or whatever in any of hobgoblins. I can get triggered by that. And then I'm off. I'm just defensive. I'm not in the game of the free exchange of feelings anymore. I'm defending myself. What's your recommendation for that kind of jerk?

David Bradford (44:09)

Well, first of all, I don't name them a jerk.

Dan Harris (44:12)

I'm being facetious.

David Bradford (44:13)

I'm both being facetious, and there's something about suspending my own judgment of the other person long enough to get curious. Well, I've obviously done something that's really not working for you. Can you please tell me what it is that I've done? Because regardless of what my intent might have been, you feeling dismissed is not what I wanted the outcome to be. So we have a whole model that we talk about that might Be a little longer to explain and more complicated we can go into it. It's the idea that there are these three realities and that in any exchange between two of us, each of us only has access to two of the three. The first reality is my intent, and the second reality, which is the only one known to both of us, is what I do. And the third reality is the impact that had on you. And the minute you say, I feel like you dismissed me, first of all, it's not a feeling. And second of all, you're imputing my intent and I'm going to get defensive. But if you say, you know, I feel dismissed, then that can be an out for me because that's not what I intended. And even better, when I made those three suggestions and every time I got no response, that would be the reality number two, we would both know I felt dismissed. That's the impact. I'm likely to hear that as a suggestion for moving into problem solving and not going down the spiral of, well, you're too sensitive. That's another attribution that's also not particularly staying. We have this metaphorical net we talk about, which is sticking with the realities. You know, that's why there is discipline and there's competence in learning how to say these things to each other, to lessen the probability of the defensiveness doesn't eliminate it.

Carol Robin (46:17)

So let me build on that. So what Carol has done very nicely is describe how you could handle it, but let's now take it that it goes wrong and how you would then would handle it. So I say something, I say, dan, when you do this, rah, rah, rah, and then you start to get very defensive. Well, your defensiveness is a feeling. I'm feeling defensive. Now, ideally you would say, oop, I'm really feeling defensive. I wonder what that's about. But you might not. You might still being defensive. Maybe I could say, wow, Dan, are you feeling defensive? And you say, hell, yes. And I say, well, what did I do? Well, you attacked me. Gee, I'm sorry. So anywhere along this, and let's play it even worse, you get defensive and you attack me, and I attack you. Maybe we can say, hey, wait a minute, this is really going south. What the hell is going on? And we'd go back to it. What are each of us feeling? I'm feeling hurt. I'm feeling defensive. I'm feeling not understood. So you see, you don't have to do it perfectly. But if you have that model of going back to your feelings of saying what's going on for me and what's going on for you. A lot of these conflicts don't have to lead to a shouting match or disaster.

Dan Harris (47:59)

Something I heard you say in there, I think this came from Carol. You didn't use this term, so it may not be a term you use. But in my peregrinations, in the sort of mindful communication world, I've heard this term of keeping it in the eye or using I language. In other words, talking about your own feelings, which is one of the three realities that you can talk about your own stuff. But there is a huge difference. And I think you kind of delineated this. But I want to put a fine point on it between saying, I feel like you dismissed me. That's you language and I feel dismissed.

David Bradford (48:37)

One of the things that really you might have seen David shake his head when you went to I. Too many people think that as long as they start the statement with I, they're staying with their own experience.

Dan Harris (48:49)

Right.

David Bradford (48:50)

Which is why we go back to what David was talking about. With regard to feelings, it is grammatically impossible to express a feeling if you put the word that. If you put any word after the word I feel other than a feeling, I feel dismissed is different than I feel that you dismissed me. I feel like what you're trying to do is dominate. That's not a feeling and it's a you statement. Yes, but people do that all the time, thinking they're expressing I feel statements.

Dan Harris (49:23)

I often think about the game here in communication, and I don't mean game in the pejorative, but like the goal is to avoid activating the other person's amygdala. And you are definitely, almost certainly going to do that if you accuse them of something. Whereas just talking about your own feelings and also the second reality, which is the behavior, you know, non agreed upon, stipulated facts, like, you're in pretty safe territory there. It's when you get into mind reading that things can get pretty dicey.

Carol Robin (49:57)

Right? Right. Yes, absolutely. And one little addition I'd have is if even when I do that and you get into your amygdala, that's the potential for learning, hey, Dan, what's going on? And if you're willing to look at yourself and you might, because you're in your amygdala, you may say, well, I feel that you're just being aggressive. Ooh, sorry, I didn't want to be. What's going on? What's the behavior? What does it mean to you? And hopefully the mindfulness antenna will Start to kick in for you. Oh, I know what's going on. You remind me of my older brother who's always like that. Wow. Thanks for telling me. I'll now be careful to try not to activate that. Do you see how we're connecting now? We're understanding each other and we're more interesting.

David Bradford (51:02)

Yeah. And there's a piece that we have not talked about that I think is super important, which is to include your intent. So when David was giving you this example. Wow, Dan, I hear that you're really upset. I'd like to know what it is that I did and what is actually going on for you. Even if you say, well, you interrupted me three times. Oh, gosh, I'm sorry. And wow, see that you're. You know, that's what is. What is that for you, Maybe now you say, well, this reminds me of how I was always being cut off at the dinner table. It's even more likely that you'll go there if I include my intent in asking or in my telling. I'm asking you this because I care about us, and the last thing in the world I want to do is have you feel put down or dismissed or whatever. And so I want to make sure that my questions and my offering of feedback to you to the extent that I might have feedback for you is it's clear that my intent is in service of us. You and me.

Dan Harris (52:09)

Yeah, I mean, I absolutely. This goes back to what I was saying before about keeping the brain activity to the prefrontal cortex, you know, the sort of logical, reasonable part of the brain, and not activating the reptile stress zones, including the amygdala. And one way to do that is, as you just said, making super clear what your positive intention is so that people don't have room to jump into paranoia.

Carol Robin (52:34)

And I want to come back to it. If I'm getting into my really upset state. That's saying something. That's a potential for learning. I don't want to be nicey dicey and make sure you don't get there. If I innocently do something, you get there. What could we learn from it? See what is central? And Carol said this before, and you said it. Everything is a potential learning experience. And the stronger the emotion, the more important the issue. That's why I keep on coming back. If you're really upset, something important is getting triggered. What is it?

Dan Harris (53:17)

Yeah, actually, I'm glad you repeated that, because I think you correctly intuited it. It might have whizzed past me because that's a very interesting way to approach conflict or intense relationships. Instead of, you know, launching into a whole story of, oh, here they go again, or, you know, this is, this conversation is now a complete pain in the butt or whatever. I actually, I'm going into data collection mode. The fact that this person has become dysregulated or, or the fact that I've become dysregulated is telling me something important. And figuring that out could have long term lasting benefits.

David Bradford (53:57)

Which is why David is the big proponent and I am right behind him on how sometimes the way to get to an exceptional relationship is to lean into the conflict, because on the other side of it is a way of knowing yourself and the other and each other that you might not have gotten to had you not had the conflict. We have had many stories, and one of them is, you know, the last chapter in the book. But, and we're back to the safer you play it, the less likely you are to end up with a really meaningful, exceptional relationship.

Carol Robin (54:32)

And in all of this, which we can't stress enough, is all of this involves risk. There's no safe way to do it. So people say, well, build psychological safety. I don't think there's such a thing as psychological safety. In total, everything's a risk. If I share some about myself, you may judge me. If I ask you questions you may feel intruded on. If I'm honest, it may break up the relationship. This conflict may derail us. It's all a risk. And the question is, if you want to build a deeper relationship, are you willing to take prudent risks? Prudent risks. And in the book and in the course, we talk about ways that you can lessen the risk, but you don't remove it. And even if it goes a little south, how you can recover. So the question is, if you want a deeper relationship, are you willing to raise the issues that may risk it?

Dan Harris (55:39)

More of my conversation with Carol Robin and David Bradford right after this. Hey, before we get started, I want to make sure that you know about all the good things we've got going on@danharris.com that is my newish online community built in partnership with Substack, where paid subscribers get cheat sheets and transcripts for every podcast episode. Plus, I do regular live AMAs, that's ask me anything sessions where I take your questions and more. It's a lot of fun. You'll also get to meet virtually lots of other folks who take all of this stuff seriously. Go to danharris.com and check it out.

David Bradford (56:17)

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Dan Harris (56:20)

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Carol Robin (56:22)

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Dan Harris (56:25)

The largest catalog of ad free top podcasts included with your prime membership. To start listening, download the Amazon Music app for free or go to Amazon.com ADFreePodcasts that's Amazon.com ADFreeP Podcasts to catch up on the latest episodes without the ads. Okay, well, now you've said that you gotta tell us, what are the ways that you can reduce the risk or repair if there's a rupture?

Carol Robin (56:53)

I think a lot of what we've talked about, I think if I stick with my feelings, you're less likely to feel attacked. I think that if I ask about your feeling, I think that if I share my intentions. Dad, I want a better relationship. I'm not out to get you. If I talk about what I want in our relationship, I really want to be relaxed and be myself. And this is what's going on that's holding me back. Can we talk about what's getting in the way, not as a form of blame, but as a form of a problem that we can jointly work on? And in jointly working on, we get closer.

Dan Harris (57:34)

Carol, are these risks harder to take when we're communicating across differences, gender lines, racial differences, political differences? Does it become increasingly risky?

David Bradford (57:46)

Well, it certainly feels riskier and it feels more challenging. I also used to think that in addition to the course being called Interpersonal Mindfulness, it could have been called Connecting Across Differences because it's easy to connect with people that are just like you along any of those dimensions that you've just named. And it's harder, also often more rewarding and a richer experience. Now we're back to how do you. You don't eliminate the risks, as David just said. And yes, in some of those cases, it is riskier, because when I understand even less of someone else's experience, then it feels even riskier to me when I say something that I don't know how they'll respond to. And I often try to err on the side of acknowledging that I don't understand their experience and I don't know it. And I don't want that to shut me down. I'm going to take the risk and I'm going to say something. And if it goes sideways, we don't know that we have the capacity to repair until we've had to repair. So again, if you play it safe, you don't learn that you can actually repair. I've Had a lot of conversations with people on the other side of the political spectrum from me. I went to work as the only woman in a non clerical job in industrial automation in 1975. And for a long time I didn't even know that I could be me. I had to become like, more like them. So I think back to your point. It's riskier and more challenging and more rewarding and an even bigger opportunity for learning.

Carol Robin (59:24)

Let me give an example. A couple months ago, I was asked to do a zoom session on influence with black managers in a major American corporation. And I started by saying, this is really a bit of gall for me, an older white man, to talk to you about this. I said, I don't know your world, I only know my world. And then I said, what I'm going to suggest in a sense is unfair because it's asking things of you when white managers ought to get their act together. And then I said, but too many of us are scared. And in some ways this conversation is a little scary for me. And by being open about where I was and what I wanted to do, we had a wonderful discussion. And they said, hey, this guy understands us a bit. And again, I had to lead with where I was, what my intentions were, and admit that this may not sound like a fair sort of thing, but my goal is to make them more influential, which I think I did.

David Bradford (60:39)

And what you did, David, is you acknowledged. I think one of the worst things that happens is we try to pretend these differences don't exist. That's like the worst thing we can do. You acknowledged, you acknowledged you couldn't possibly really totally understand. And I mean, we're back to that sense that I keep coming back to. If you say what's going on for you and you're real about it and you include your feelings, most people will respond in kind. Now, I do want to say one other thing. When you ask Dan about, you know, in a conflict now, you've both escalated, you're both in your amygdalas, right? Some of the stuff that we talked about is like, well, sometimes it's okay to just say, you know what, maybe we need to take like 10 minutes and take a breather and come back to this. That is okay to do. Especially if you've noticed that you've hit a wall with each other and you're just escalating. I'll also say one other thing that we missed in that conversation, which is, wow, it's powerful to say, gosh, I'm sorry, man, do people have a difficult time. Just saying doesn't matter that that's not what I intended. I am sorry. And to mean it.

Carol Robin (61:55)

And to mean it. I want to underline that because so often we say I'm sorry.

David Bradford (61:59)

No, I feel really crappy. So not what I wanted. That goes a long ways too.

Dan Harris (62:08)

Yes. Amen to everything that's been said over the last couple of minutes. I really like all of that. And it sounds like you handled the beginning of that conversation really skillfully, David. I'll apologize if anybody hears sort of a low rumbling on my mic. I have a feline invader in my little studio here before we close to point out the obvious. And I guess it's kind of cat provided a good segue to this. We're all, you know, many of us have been working from home or working in suboptimal situations or living in suboptimal situations for a long time now. And in some parts of the world we're going back to work and some parts we're not. And even where we're going back, it's kind of haphazard and maybe we have social anxiety. There's a complicated situation when comes to relationships right now. So I just wonder as we come to a close here, whether you guys could free associate on some ways to navigate the particularly dangerous environment. Dangerous, maybe precarious, maybe loaded, fraught environment that we find ourselves in right now.

David Bradford (63:10)

Well, I would start by acknowledging, whoa, this is hard. One of the things that's happened over the last year and a half in business particularly is that tasks have gotten foregrounded and relationships have gotten backgrounded, which means that everything we've been talking about with you is something that people have to double down on. If the only way we're ever interacting with each other is through Hollywood Squares and people use the screen as a way to hide more than seeing it as an opportunity to. You know how when you do theater, you're supposed to speak louder so that people in the way back can actually hear you. Some of my participants in my Leaders in Tech program CEO fellows have created mechanisms where they when they get together in their twice a month executive team call, they start by actually saying it's something they learned in the program. In the Leaders of Tech program that I teach, if you really knew me. And they each take 90 seconds and they have to complete that sentence. If you really knew me. And they have to use three feeling words and they've all got their vocabulary of feelings and in 12 minutes they all understand where they all are in that moment. And then they dive into what they've got to deal with. Then many of them, after the call is done, will reach out to each other based on what they heard in the. If you really knew me, you have to build structures and you have to double down. Yes, David?

Carol Robin (64:43)

Yeah, I have a colleague who said, oh, the good thing about Zoom is we cut to the chase and we cut out the unnecessary stuff. And what Carol is saying, we are human beings related to human beings. It's that unnecessary stuff that allows us to know each other personally. We do it at the office with a cup of coffee. We do it when we drop by somebody's office. And what we need to do is when we're on the phone, when we're on Zoom, and when we're face to face, as Carol says, double doubt of saying, here's where I am. Where are you? What's important to you? What is happening to you as a human being that I need to know, because it's you as a human being I'm going to be working with.

Dan Harris (65:36)

Final question. Can people really change?

Carol Robin (65:45)

Yes. As Carol said, we wouldn't be in this business for this many decades if we didn't believe it. What we need to separate is, are we talking about behavioral change or personality change? And if you're a manager, if you're a friend, I'm not into personality change. I'll let the therapist do that. Maybe they can a little bit. But what we're talking about is behavioral change. So I want to come back to some of the examples Carol said. Sometimes she comes in, like, with a lot of force. She's in control of that behavior. I don't need to know what the hell is driving that. She just needs to know how it's affecting me and that she can control ourselves. So we can control behavior. And that's why the feedback has to be on behavior and not on character. So say to somebody you want to dominate isn't very helpful. But to say, when I feel interrupted three times in a row, I feel dismissed. You have control over that. And so, yes, people can change behavior. And there'd be much more behavior change if people shared their reaction to the behavior and told the person what was useful and what wasn't. So at Stanford, we say feedback is a gift. Because I'm telling you something you don't know. You don't know the impact of your behavior. I know that. And as a person who's concerned about you, I want to tell you, and if we had more of that, we'd have more behavioral change, and we'd have.

David Bradford (67:33)

More functional families and more functional schools and more functional businesses. And I will add that that does not mean that change is easy. I know that I come in and I interrupt. I know that sometimes it irritates David, especially when we're in a setting like this. Sometimes I get so excited, I forget. And then he reminds me, and then I'm a little bit better next time until I forget again or I get excited again. Over time, I get a little bit better. He also knows what it is that gets me in that state. Like, I probably chimed in a little more than usual because I'm like, super excited to be on this podcast with you, Dan. I'm like, oh, my God, 10% happier. I'm such a fan. I've arrived in some weird kind of way, for me to even be talking to you. I meditated before I went into it saying, carol, you're going to have a tendency to really want to get in there a lot. And as much as I tried to manage myself, there were times when I didn't do as good a job as I wish I'd done.

Carol Robin (68:41)

Yes, but you're so much better than you were when we started to work together.

David Bradford (68:46)

Exactly.

Carol Robin (68:47)

You're much better.

Dan Harris (68:48)

I thought you were both great. And thank you, Carol, for your kind words. In real closing here, this isn't a deep, meaty question. This is more just something I like to do at the end of the show. Just can I get one or both of you to just plug the book and any other resources that may exist, digitally or otherwise?

Carol Robin (69:05)

Carol, go for it.

David Bradford (69:06)

So the first thing I'd recommend is we have a website for our book, www.connectandrelate.com. because we couldn't get just connect. Connectandrelate.com that's not the name of the book. The book is called building exceptional relationships with family, friends and colleagues. But if you go to the website connect and Relate, you'll see all about the book, but you also will see some free downloadable tools. We've got a self assessment that you can download. You can, by the way, use it to assess yourself. And you can also make a copy of it, give it to some people in your life and ask them to fill it out and see whether they see you the same way you see you. We also have a free downloadable create your own learning group guide. So if six of you want to get together and buy the book and read it together, then there's a guide on how to get the most out of reading it together. And then you'll also see under Media there's all kinds of podcasts and articles if you want to just learn more through that means. And then of course there's an order button which ultimately we hope a number of people will avail themselves of. That takes you to lots of different places that will sell it. And if anybody is interested in bulk buys, then they're free to contact us. And we we've had quite a few companies that CEOs that that have said, hey, I'm going to buy one for everybody in my company.

Carol Robin (70:32)

So and if I could end with a funny story about this, we also recommend that if there's a relationship you want to work on, you may want to have that person buy a book. So I talked to somebody and he said, yes, I bought it for my wife and she said, what, you think I'm the problem? So when you buy it for somebody else, you may want to share your intention. I want to improve the relationship and it will help me if you in a sense are reading some of the stuff I'm reading, not you're the problem.

Dan Harris (71:09)

Well, I feel happy to have met you both and glad you came on the show. Thank you.

David Bradford (71:15)

I feel honored to have been on it and I thank you too.

Carol Robin (71:18)

Yes. And it has been great fun, great questions and a great discussion.

Dan Harris (71:27)

Thanks again to David and Carol. Awesome to talk to them. Here's a cool thing you can try out if you would like to practice some of the skills they described or get personalized advice. If you go to David and Carol's website connectandrelate.com there's an option to chat with an AI bot based on Carol. It's free and you can get some really good tips there. Should make one of those for me. Also, don't forget to check out all the cool stuff we're doing over@danharris.com paid subscribers can get together and chat about today's episode and anything else you want to chat about. Also, you get access to live AMAs with me where we do guided meditation and I take your questions. Tons of cool stuff. Come check it out. Just before I go here, I want to thank everybody who worked so hard to make this show. Our producers are Tara Anderson, Caroline Keenan and Eleanor Vasily. Our recording and engineering is handled by the great folks over at Pod People. Lauren Smith is our production manager, Marissa Schneiderman is our senior producer, DJ Cashmere is our executive producer and Nick Thorburn of the band Islands wrote our theme.