Peter A. Levine (6:35)

Thank you.

Dan Harris (6:36)

I want to hear a lot about your personal story, but let's start with somatic experiencing. Can you just give me, and by extension everybody listening, a brief description of what that is?

Peter A. Levine (6:48)

Sure. When I first started on my path in the mid to late 1960s early 70s, I had the advantage to not know that trauma which would 14 years in the future would be listed as an incurable disorder or even a brain disease that could at best be managed with medication and with helping people change their negative thoughts. So I didn't know that was supposed to be the way things are. And so I had a very, very different experience of what happens in the body. So for example, you walk outside and you see somebody's been injured, somebody has fallen off a bicycle and your guts twist, you got a little yuck. And then you go out and you look Closer and you see he's really been injured. So you go to call 911, but your guts are still even more twisted. And so what might happen is that night, not saying this is traumatic, but just as an example, that night you may be laying in bed and all of a sudden you see images of earlier that day with the person was injured and again your guts twist up. Now, if that becomes chronic, the body is then telling the brain that there's threat, there's danger, there's injury, and you better watch yourself. But it's something that comes from the body. I think of this sometimes as a part of us that is also very wise, that is very cognizant that it's not just the mind, but it's really incorporating the body. I think there's now more of a recognition among people in different fields of how important the body is and how our bodies respond to threat and how our bodies can perpetuate threat and danger even though there is no real threat or danger. So that's really how I began my work.

Dan Harris (8:49)

Let me see if I can state some of that back to you. Make sure I've got it. That something difficult happens to us. Maybe we could call it traumatic. Something difficult happens to us and then we store that experience in our body and relive it involuntarily. And. And if we don't pay attention to how the body's doing that, then we're. It can create long term damage.

Peter A. Levine (9:12)

Exactly. It can linger and linger and linger. And we can even start experiencing physical symptoms such as irritable bowel. If this goes on in a chronic way. We sometimes think of it as trauma, as being psychological, but it's very much somatic. It's very much something that registers in our body and that we can change that. We can shift that. I could, if you want, do a little example with you.

Dan Harris (9:40)

Sure.

Peter A. Levine (9:41)

So there's a nerve that goes from the back of the brain down through the diaphragm until all of the organs below the diaphragm, particularly the gastrointestinal system. But it also goes to the heart and to the lungs. And this nerve is the largest nerve in the body. But what many people don't know is that 80% of that nerve is actually sensory. It's taking information from our guts and bringing it up back into the brain. So if our guts are twisted, we're going to feel this anguish. You know, Charles Darwin, one of my great heroes, Einstein and Darwin, he knew about this nerve and he called it the pneumogastric nerve, so pneumo, lung, gastric, gastrointestinal system. And he also realized that it was responsible. And this is really amazing how he came to this, that it's responsible for gut wrench and heartbreak. And I couldn't even add something that's more prescient or more to the point than Darwin's observation. So if we can change the signal from the viscera from the gut, then the trauma sensations can then start to recede. So here's the example and I'll demonstrate it and you can do it if you want with me. So I take an easy full breath and on the exhalation make the sound vu coming from the belly. As though it's coming from the belly. Well, it really is coming from the belly. And let the sound and the breath go all the way out. And then just wait for the breath to come in, filling belly and chest, and then repeat. So I'll demonstrate here. And I let the breath and the sound go all the way. Oh. And then wait for the breath to come in, filling belly and then chest and once more. So do you want to do that with me or. And any of the people who are listening?

Dan Harris (11:59)

Yeah. Let me just jump in with a question. I can imagine there are some people who are like, this seems weird.

Peter A. Levine (12:06)

Yes, it probably is weird, but the question is, does it really do something? Does it work? Does it actually do what you want it to do or need it to do? So it is weird, but if you think about it, physiologically, there are these receptors in the gut we sometimes call the enteric brain or the second brain. It's a really massive network of neurons in the whole gastrointestinal system. And there are these different receptors that are signaling from our guts back up to our brain, what's happening and how to be able to change that. So, again, the idea is very simple. And also different kinds of sounding techniques have been used literally for thousands of years, and they probably wouldn't stick around if they weren't valid. So again, just. And one of the things in somatic experiencing, we try to invoke their curiosity. And so if you and your listeners. Viewers are wanting to be curious about that, I'll just lead you through the exercise. And if it doesn't feel right or it feels too hokey or it feels maybe difficult to do, or it might be even a little bit frightening to do, so just let it go and just listen and watch as I'm doing it or as we're doing it. So are you game?

Dan Harris (13:32)

I am game. I Just want to sum you up before we dive in here. What you're saying is, sure, this may feel forced, and this is my addition here. Lots of things, including exercise, meditation, therapy, feel forced and weird and uncomfortable.

Peter A. Levine (13:47)

Yep.

Dan Harris (13:47)

And yet, if you want to treat the difficult experiences, the trauma, the demons that are living in various aspects of your mind and body, here's an evidence based way to do it. Who cares whether it feels weird?

Peter A. Levine (14:02)

Exactly. And you know, and we've done a fair amount of research now, you know, with outcome studies, and the last one was published in the Journal of Traumatic Stress, which is the gold standard for trauma research. So it's not without validation, but again, the inner validation to me is what's the most important.

Dan Harris (14:24)

All right, having said all of that, let's get weird.

Peter A. Levine (14:27)

Let's get weird together. So, Dan and your viewers. Easy, full breath. And on the exhalation, make the sound vu, vibrating it in your belly. So you're now getting this feeling instead of gut wrench, and it's gut opening or gut warmth or whatever comes up. Images might even come up. So easy, full breath. Let the breath and the sound all the way out.

Dan Harris (14:59)

And the vu's on the out. So I do it easy, full breath in.

Peter A. Levine (15:02)

And then I start the vu and full exhalation. And then wait for the breath to come in on its own, filling belly and chest. And then repeat it again. Okay. Let the breath come in. Filling belly and chest. And again. And just notice, Dan, any sensations, bodily sensations, feelings, images that might come up or thoughts? Actually, I've developed this exercise specifically working with people who had panic attacks. But just curious what you were noticing when you were doing the exercise.

Dan Harris (15:59)

Yes, and as you know, I'm a panic attack connoisseur.

Peter A. Levine (16:02)

Oh, okay.

Dan Harris (16:03)

And sufferer myself. I felt immediately like warmth roll over my shoulders and down into my guts.

Peter A. Levine (16:12)

Exactly. In other words, you were opening to these good sensations rather than the gut wrench sensations. And that's the idea, because sometimes you can switch out of this fairly quickly, but not always, because sometimes, again, where people have had histories of tremendous abuse and trauma. I mean, partly what I write about in the autobiography is that it takes time because when I started teaching this work, people expected that this would work in one or two sessions. And sometimes it does, but sometimes it takes repetitive work, especially when we have a lot of early childhood trauma. But it's also possible to heal, even though the deepest of traumas. But sometimes it's more not just a miracle, but a hard work miracle. That's one of the reasons I Enjoyed your book. Because it doesn't say, well, this is the cure, this is going to take care of everything. Because sometimes it does, but often it takes continued work.

Dan Harris (17:15)

Just to say a little bit more about my experience doing the vu thing, please. I experienced, after two breaths, because we only did two, a rush of warmth in my torso, notwithstanding the fact that consciously I was experiencing a lot of self consciousness and fear that my audience was going to think I lost my fucking mind.

Peter A. Levine (17:38)

That makes two of us. But right, I mean, like you say, it doesn't make sense in some way, but again, you can look at it in different ways. Just the phenomenological change, which is just what you reported, but also knowing the physiology of the nervous system and how the vagus nerve is responsible for regulating our basic sense of goodness, of awareness, of opening to different bodily and perceptual experiences. You know, there's been a lot of work now or a lot of interest in psychedelics, and I think they sometimes can be valuable, but I think sometimes also one has to be cautious about their use and that people have to be prepared for it and there has to be follow up. And the body is the way to prepare the royal route, to prepare for this and to follow it up. So it's not just the person is just taking this drug and then, you know, whatever happens, happens. But unfortunately that can be problematic. And actually in the book I talk about this as promises and pitfalls to really examine this and its use and especially when we can come to the body so directly without these catalysts. So anyhow, what sticks is really what's happening and having those feelings of warmth. Now I can explain that in terms of a different parasympathetic nervous system. My very, very dear friend and colleague, Stephen Porges, if you haven't had him on, he'd be a good person to have on. We've been very close friends for like since 1975, 1976. And he talks about three systems. The sympathetic nervous system, the fight or flight system, the shutdown system, where the vagus nerve is overactive and the guts just keep churning. And then also what he calls a social engagement system. And that should be the one that should be our default as primates and as mammals. So in other words, when we are not in fight or flight and we're not in the shutdown state, our natural impulse is to connect with others, to make eye contact, to share something together, to share a meal, to share a movie. And again, these are ways that we desire contact with others. So it's not about brute force anymore, but it's about cooperation. And cooperation comes from being open in our nervous system to that inner regulation.

Dan Harris (20:26)

I'm very intrigued and I do want to talk. I want to come back later to psychedelics, but let me just stay with the basics of se somatic experiencing. You just showed us one breathing and sounding technique. I would imagine that within somatic experiencing, there are other techniques that you use.

Peter A. Levine (20:43)

Oh, yes, Many, many other. You know, often people present with physical pain, and usually physical pain is due to bracing and bracing in the body against being hit, or even bracing against certain feelings, certain emotions, particularly sadness, grief. But if we bring our attention to our bracing, usually the person will report, for example, that they're feeling pain in their shoulders. Oh, it's very interesting. As soon as I said those words, your shoulders went up a little bit.

Dan Harris (21:21)

You're right.

Peter A. Levine (21:22)

Yeah. But again, the idea is what's underneath the pain. And it's usually a bracing pattern. Bracing against injury, bracing against threat, bracing against emotions. But so, for example, are you willing to be another round as a guinea pig?

Dan Harris (21:41)

I am puttying your hands.

Peter A. Levine (21:43)

Okay, so I can see again, there's a fair amount of tension in your shoulders.

Dan Harris (21:47)

Yes.

Peter A. Levine (21:48)

So I want you to explore what might happen if the tension in the shoulders increased even a little bit. What kind of movement might. There you go. And then just letting the shoulders let go. Next time, do this, but do it very slowly. Just the smallest amount. Here, I'll demonstrate. So instead of going like this, I just raise it. Just the smallest amount and then I let it go. And then rest there for a moment. And then again, just let them. The tension increase. Let the shoulders move up towards the ears and let them go.

Dan Harris (22:28)

It's incredible. It's the same like onrush. Again over the shoulders and down into the gut feeling of warmth from that very simple move.

Peter A. Levine (22:38)

Exactly. People ask, well, what's the goal in therapy? For me, the goal is feeling more alive, feeling more connected, feeling more present in the here and now. And, you know, again, this is energy that got locked in our bodies. And once we connect to that energy and release that energy, we feel a lot of this vitality. So if you're willing to take one more step, I'm going to give you a sentence to say if you're willing, I am to say the sentence. And again, be curious to what happens when you say the sentence. Because they're my words. They might not mean anything or mean something completely different, but the words I invite you to say, I'm alive.

Dan Harris (23:24)

I'm alive.

Peter A. Levine (23:25)

And again, just notice what happens.

Dan Harris (23:28)

I go right from the swirling stories into my. In my head, south of the neckline to the body.

Peter A. Levine (23:36)

Right. Okay, let's add one more thing. I'm alive and I'm real.

Dan Harris (23:42)

I'm alive and I'm real.

Peter A. Levine (23:44)

Yeah. And again, I just kind of noticed dropping down more into your belly, into your body. To me, the goal of successful therapy, whatever method, is that the person feels more settled in themselves and more alive and more connected to this, what Carl Jung called the true self or the deep self. The part of us that's there was there before any trauma and will be there forever. We just need to connect with it, and we need to do that. Or one of the ways of doing that is connecting to the trauma, but then moving through the trauma.

Dan Harris (24:25)

I've done no small amount of talk therapy in my life, but I've not had any therapist ever direct me to my physical sensations. That seems like a key difference, if not the key difference, between somatic experiencing and traditional talk therapy.

Peter A. Levine (24:43)

Yes, and somatic experiencing, One of the things that is somewhat unique about it is that it works from the bottom up, from the sensations that you were describing to our feelings, but also to our emotions, but also to our thoughts. And the idea in somatic experiencing is to work from the sensations but also connect. So it's not that talk therapy is bad or anything, but it's limited. And it's limited to the degree that we're not able to sense and feel these things in our bodies. You know, in somatic experiencing, it's not a therapy per se, but really what it is is it's something that helps people do what they do better. So somebody who's even a talk therapist, and we've had many, many, many of our trainees from being talk therapists, and then getting some of these tools to also work with the body greatly enhances their ability to work also with the mind. But just talk therapy alone, without reference to the body, I think can be limited and in any case, can take a long, long time to work. Again, I'm not saying that just doing something like this is a miracle, but it really facilitates and amplifies the shifts that we're all looking for as we connect to that deeper part of ourselves.

Dan Harris (26:16)

You may have explained this already, but would you mind putting a very fine point on it? What is. In what way does somatic experiencing getting, you know, working with your body and the sensations in your body, how does that heal trauma, exactly?

Peter A. Levine (26:35)

Well, in a way, you could say trauma is a disorder of Disembodiment of dissociation from our bodies or our bodies fragment to extremely painful situations and those pieces are thrown asunder. So how we can we bring those pieces together and hold them together in a cohesive way? You know, for example, sometimes people are very much in their head and if I start working with them, it seems like there's no place to go because they don't have any reference to the body. But then we're talking, having a conversation, and something comes up and I can see there's some excitement with the person. And I'll say, wow, it seemed like when you just told me about playing with your dog this morning, it seemed like something happened inside. Are you aware of anything that's going on right now in your body? So you again, you just gently kind of lead the person to the body from wherever they are. You know, I was asked to see this young man who was on the spectrum, on the autistic spectrum. He lived up in the Bay Area. So he would come down for four days, you know, once a year. So when he first came down, he had his computer and he wanted me to have my computer and he would email me and then I would respond with my computer. So it was almost impossible for him to actually be with another human being with contact. Well, the second year, pretty much the same. Then the third year he opened his computer and then closed it and he started to talk. And then the fourth year, he had met this young lady, a very lovely young lady, and then they got married. And now every Christmas New Year's, they send me a wonderful family picture of their child that was, I think it's four or five year old child. And so it was about meeting him where he was starting computer to computer because that was where his comfort level is. And then gradually bringing him and people in general to some reference to the body when something excites them, when something turns them on. So is that relatively clear?

Dan Harris (29:04)

I mean, that's a. I love that story. I guess I'm. I still don't quite understand the mechanism by which connecting with your bodily sensations will help you move trauma through. How exactly does that work?

Peter A. Levine (29:17)

But remember, trauma is what's locked in the body. Again, that example, we go out and we see that injured person and our bodies go yuck. And if it's severe enough, our bodies stay yucked and our bodies continue to talk to the brain and saying this is bad. And then the brain says it must be bad and gets even more contracting in the body. So I think really the key is because it's locked in the body. It's only by connecting to the body that we can unlock it. Or it's mainly through the body. There's another thing that I think is useful is that there's been a lot of research coming out lately about interoception. And interoception is the body sense. And in a number of these research studies they said if the person can become just not even like things like you were becoming aware of, but just their heartbeat, that it greatly changes their. Improve their mental health and their physical health. One small thing. So I think this is a field now which is beginning to blossom about interoception. And you could say that this interoception is approach. The way I use it is in healing the wounds of trauma and betrayal.

Dan Harris (30:36)

Yeah. So just to state that back to you, the in somatic experiencing through techniques like breathing and vocalizing or working with your shoulders or your posture or.

Peter A. Levine (30:47)

Or anywhere in the body that's being held.

Dan Harris (30:50)

Yes. You're getting us in touch with where tension trauma is being held so that it can move through.

Peter A. Levine (30:58)

Exactly. You said it better than I've been saying it. Really.

Dan Harris (31:03)

What does all this have to do with the evolutionarily wired fight, flight, freeze response that we have and that all animals have?

Peter A. Levine (31:11)

Yes, that's right. Well, again, our response to threat or danger generally is the sympathetic nervous system, the fight or flight that mobilizes us for action. But then when we're feeling overwhelmed or when, you know, with the COVID people had such fear of the COVID but it's not something they could see and it's not something they could flee from. So the one thing that they can do is shut down in the body. And this is my theory and I've worked with a number of people, so I don't want to say that this is a proven fact, but I've worked with a number of people who have had this post Covid, long Covid and their body has stayed shut down. And then when we're gradually able to move help and move out of shutdown, then some of the chronic fatigue becomes less. In some cases considerably less. So again, if we're in fight or flight, we mobilize for action. If we're overwhelmed and we're shut down with freeze and collapse, then that cuts us off from connection. Well, connection to ourselves, our bodies, but connection to others. Because when you're either expecting danger, you're not going to want to engage with a person, especially if you're in a state of shutdown. You just want to get through the day. But then if it stays stuck, then we have to work and see where it's become stuck and then move out of it. And then sometimes say an acknowledgment or as you did, it's like an affirmation where you said, I'm alive, I'm alive and I'm real, I'm alive and I'm present. Because again, that's a recognition of the importance of what happens when we begin to connect with our bodies, that we feel more present, we feel more alive, we feel more grounded, we feel more centered, and there really is no greater reward. At least that's how I see it.

Dan Harris (33:17)

Coming up, Peter A. Levine talks about SE practices we can right now implement in our own lives. How to move through ancient wounds, whether you have trauma or not. The research behind SE and his personal experience of trauma and how he worked through it. Depending on where you live, the cooler temperatures are rolling in and if it's not happening right now, it's going to happen soon. It always does. And quince is where I'm turning for fall staples that actually last. From cashmere to denim to boots. The quality holds up and the price still blows me away. Quint has the kind of fall staples you will wear non stop. Like super soft 100% Mongolian cashmere sweaters starting at just 60 bucks. I've got like four of those. Gonna bring those out of the back of the closet to start wearing again now that fall is here. Their denim is durable and fits right in. Their real leather jackets bring that clean, classic edge without the elevated price tag. What makes quints different? They partner directly with ethical factories and skip the middlemen so you get the top tier fabrics and craftsmanship at half the price of similar brands. I was at a party last night. I was wearing my quince pants which fit really well. They look good, not too tight, just the kind of thing a man of my age craves. I've got many, many quints Go to's. Aside from the aforementioned cashmere sweaters, I also wear Quince sweatpants on the regular often while I'm doing interviews for this podcast. Keep it classic and cool this fall with long lasting staples from quince go to quince.com/happier for free shipping on your order and 365 days returns. That's Q U I N C E dot com happier free shipping and 365 day returns quince.com happier as we switch from summer to the fall and the weather's starting to cool down a little bit, I really Want to squeeze all the juice out of my outdoor space. I want to make it warm and cozy, and Wayfair is a great place to do this. As your trusted destination for all things home, Wayfair's got everything you need to cozify your space space this fall, from comfy recliners to warm bedding and autumn decor. Wayfair even has espresso makers so you can make that latte at home. They've got great stuff, not only for your outdoor space, but also your indoor space. My wife has been on a binge of ordering these beautiful translucent bookshelves, these kind of modular bookshelves with wheels that you can really easily move around the room. And she's got this expanding collection of books that she places in these bookshelves, and they look really beautiful in her home office. Cozify your space with Wayfair's curated collection of easy, affordable fall updates. Find it all for way less@wayfair.com that's W-A-Y-F-A-I-R.com Wayfair Every style, every home. If I'm listening to this, and I'm intrigued, you know, some listeners may not have access, at least not immediately, to a somatic experiencing therapist. What are some practices we can take that we could put into our lives immediately? And. And maybe you've already listed them and demonstrated them already, but I want to pose that question to you anyway.

Peter A. Levine (36:41)

I mean, many people meditate. That's become more and more common. But what if you, instead of meditating on your thoughts, which is what most meditation is about, if you meditate also on your body? You know, I was invited to Thich Nhat Hanh center in Plum Village. It's a meditation center. And one of the things that I really had sympathica with is that most of his meditation, especially until people really became proficient at this, was what he called walking meditation. So when you're walking, you naturally connect with your body. They would do those kind of meditations, walking meditations, and then they would meet in groups of 12 or 15 underneath the plum tree, and they would share with each other, remember the social engagement system, what they were experiencing, what they were learning, how they were relating to their bodies. So again, if you're doing meditation, also try to do walking meditation and feel how your body moves in space and time.

Dan Harris (37:55)

And that alone, that reinhabiting of our container, even without therapy per se, could that help us move through our ancient wounds?

Peter A. Levine (38:08)

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, I think bottom line is we'll Enrich our lives. And why not do something that enriches our lives, whether we have major trauma or not? I mean, truly, there are not many people that haven't had some wounds. I mean, the word for trauma in Greek is wound. And then the word for wound in old German is trauma or dream. So we find ways to enrich our lives, to stimulate our dream talk, our dream world, our dream body. You know, I suggest to people that they write down dreams. And because often dreams are taking us in the next direction. When I have a dream, I will actually, what I will try to do is look at pieces of the dream, parts of the dream, and then with my awareness go from the dream to what I'm experiencing in my body. So using the dream as a way to come into the body maybe could even be called the dream body. So again, there are so many things that are enriched by body sensing, by body awareness, by interoceptive awareness, that it makes sense for everybody to practice this. And as I said, the one example of just the study with just having a person become aware of their heartbeat, I mean, without feeling their pulse, but just hearing their heartbeat, that makes a significant difference in their well being, just doing that. So it's something that maybe I'm being repetitious, but it can enrich all of our lives, any of our lives. And it is, I believe, the royal root in working with the effect of trauma, particularly trauma that's been on the body. Actually, one of the people who wrote the endorsements for the book, Manna Bessel van der Kolk, he said nicely, peter is a wise and kind pioneer of somatic therapies who has been a beacon for clinicians all over the world for understanding and dealing with the physical imprints of traumatic stress. And he wrote a book called the Body Keeps the Score. What we're seeing is, again, this used to be fringe. Dan, when I talked about this to audiences back in the 60s and 70s, I really received basically hostility. How could I say something so outlandish? And it was probably dangerous to have people become aware of their bodies. But that's not that way anymore. I think really at this point it's no longer fringe with research and with different ways of connecting to our experience. I think it's now clearly part of, maybe not completely in the mainstream, but largely now in the mainstream.

Dan Harris (41:13)

I imagine somatic experiencing has been studied quite a bit. Can you give us a sense of what the research indicates?

Peter A. Levine (41:21)

Yeah, well, I mean, there are different kinds of research. The research that I mentioned initially, which was a study that was carried out. I think it was in Israel, actually, where there was a lot of trauma. And it would give us really look at the metrics for trauma. So there are different scales that you can use to measure trauma. And just doing, I think it was like, I believe it was like six sessions that they dramatically dropped the level of trauma. And this lasted for, I think, follow up at six months, if I'm correct. So that's what you want to do. This is called basically an outcome study. We've done some physiological studies of what happens when people are in different states. We've done a little bit of that. We've done research on applying it to different situations. For example, for marriage and family work. Oh, and work with children, particularly first aid, because children are always going to have their accidents, especially once they're two years old. They can get into all kinds of trouble. You know, they're out on their skateboards or whatever, and they can get hurt and they can get scared. This may be swallowing marbles and then being rushed to the emergency room. So if the parents are able to be there with the child and support the child, be there by the child's side, maybe asking the child if it's okay for you to put your hand on their back. And then the kinds of reactions that you were just describing, Dan, that's what the children often describe. So again, like I said, somatic experience is not just a therapy per se, but it's about how to multiply the effectiveness of many different approaches, many different kinds of therapies, including cognitive therapies.

Dan Harris (43:22)

So it sounds like you're saying the more we can heal ourselves, get in touch with our own wounds, our own body, let it move through. We can become like nodes of healing in the larger, larger world.

Peter A. Levine (43:35)

Yes. And that would be my deepest hope, that when we heal from ourselves, we can also help others, people who are close to us. But I think ultimately we can also begin to heal people who are further and further out in the world. And my God, if the world has never, ever needed healing, it certainly needs it now. You know, I was doing a training many years ago. It must have been at least 20 years ago in Israel. At that time, it was possible to also have Palestinian therapists come. And so somebody asked me the question, well, what if you don't know what your trauma is? Can you still work with it? And I said, yes, you just need to have some symptom. It could be pain, it could be some haunting, but that's all you need. And so this man volunteered, a man named Chaim. And he was actually one of the pioneers of developing psychoanalytic therapy for Holocaust survivors. So he said that he'd been having back pains for 30 years. So it's interesting that he mentioned specifically 30 years, because that means in some way his unconscious, preconscious knows something, subconscious knows something is going on 30 years ago. So when I start working with him, after a while, his body would go into waves. His fingers would become ice cold. Then they would become warm. Then he would be able to take full, easy breaths. And then rhythmically, full, easy breaths would come and go. And finally at the end, you could just see he was sweating so deeply that this shock had been discharged. And the reason we later found out is when he was an army doctor and his battalion was ambushed, everyone died. But he fell out of the truck backwards into a ditch on his back. And so the horror and terror got locked into the back in the form of pain, physical pain. So, you know, I could see people were deeply moved. So I asked if anybody wanted to share something, if Chaim was okay with it, what they were noticing in their own experience, in their own bodies. And this one woman stood up after a while, elegant woman. She was from Gaza Mental Health. And she said, chaim, when you came up to work with Dr. Levine, I was praying that something bad would happen to you, that you would be traumatized, that you would be. Because you. Your people have traumatized my people, have humiliated my people, have killed my people. But something happened when I started to feel in my body, something about what you were maybe feeling in your body. And I realized, chaim, until we find peace within ourselves, within our bodies, we'll never find peace with each other. And I don't want to make this sound like a panacea, but I think this is an important thing to cultivate, to be able to know that when we're reactive, it's probably because there's some trauma that's being reactivated or activated. So how to work with those and how to use that to heal to our families, to our children, our families, to our communities, and even. Maybe even to our countries. I mean, by God, right now, you know, our country could use a dose of healing itself.

Dan Harris (47:21)

Very true. You described earlier that trauma is, when we're traumatized, often we dissociate because. And it makes sense we're trying to escape the experience. Many people who are carrying trauma with them now really resist and find terrifying the notion of reoccupying the body with good reason. What do you say to folks like that who hear about Somatic experiencing and say, oh, this sounds horrifying.

Peter A. Levine (47:47)

Yeah. When people first connect with their bodies, they may experience a contraction. But if the person is guided, and I describe, you know, quite a bit how I was guided due to it, for myself, for my own healing, in the book, you do feel worse for that moment. But if you're guided, this contraction will then move to an expansion. We start to connect with the traumatic sensations which we're dissociated from. So we start feeling contraction in our bodies, but then when we're guided, we feel an expansion and then another contraction and then another expansion and another contraction and another expansion. So in somatic experiencing, we never take the person right into the trauma. It's not like an exposure therapy because that can be re. Traumatizing. But I call this titration. We just touch into those sensations and move from contraction to experience. I call that pendulation, like the movement of a pendulum. Contraction, expansion, contraction, expansion. So, yes, it can be frightening at first, but a therapist who knows what they're doing is able to take the person through that fear and into greater connection and greater expansion.

Dan Harris (49:13)

You mentioned your childhood traumas and you write about them in your new book and autobiography of trauma. Particularly, you tell a pretty horrifying and very violent story from your own childhood. Are you comfortable discussing that here?

Peter A. Levine (49:30)

I won't say I'm 100% comfortable, but yes, I'm open to sharing it. But I want to preface this in somatic experience. Like I just said, we don't go right into the trauma. So when I was having these symptoms, which were basically from a violent attack and a rape, to keep my family from testifying against the Mafia, so our whole family was. Our life was threatened. The therapist isn't going to take me directly into that, but I came to this following memory when I was 4 or 5 years old. My parents came into my bedroom, must have been in the middle of the night or early in the morning, and they laid a train track underneath the bed, all the way around in an oval into the room, then back also again under the bed. And then the train was going around the tracks. So when I awoke, I was just thrilled. And when I worked with what does it mean to feel thrilled? I could feel that in my body. I felt excited, I felt turned on, and I jumped out of bed and I ran to the transformer and I changed the speed and I made the horn go toot toot. And that memory let me know that I was cared for and loved, even if it was only for a relatively Short period of time. And one of the things that is characteristic of people who have just experienced even the smallest amount of love in their childhood, that these people will be okay. That with good therapy, they will be okay. And then my guide took me gradually into dealing with what led to the rape and how I was able to heal that. And I think when I decided to write the book, it was only for myself. It was really as a personal excavation. But a close friend of mine said, peter, I think you really should publish this as a book because it could help other people with their own traumas, with their own healing, and particularly, you know, with telling their own stories. But it was too personal, it was too raw. And I was really afraid to do it. And she really encouraged me and she said, peter, maybe just think about it. And I had the following dream. I'm standing by an open field, and in my hand I have reams of paper, and they're typewritten. So obviously it's some kind of a manuscript. But I don't know what to do with it in the dream. And I look to the left, I look to the right, and then in my indecision, this wind comes from behind me and takes the pages and scatters them into the meadow to land where they may. And that then said, yes, I'm going to tell the story and let it land where it may. Parts of it, I think, are inspiring. Parts of it, I think will be, well, will be valuable to people who have their own traumas or are interested in the nature of trauma. Because I use my story as a way of illustrating, not just talking theoretically, but about how I came to Chiron. Chiron in Greek mythology. And now we think of Chiron as the wounded healer that as therapists, it's behoven to us to do our own healing. Because if we don't do our own healing, we're going to be limited in what guidance we can give to people who are coming to us for their healing. So again, I think this is part of important part of my life, an important part, not the whole story, but important part of the autobiography of trauma, a healing journey. So, anyhow, there were many, many different things in my life. Some were just exciting, some were amazing, some were almost incredible that they even happened, but enriching, enriching for me, and I believe will be enriching for the readers.

Dan Harris (53:54)

Just to recap a little bit, when you were growing up, your dad ended up being called as a witness in a Mafia trial. And then the mob try to intimidate the family to convince your father not to testify. And as part of that, you were violently attacked in a nearby park, if I recall, and. And raped.

Peter A. Levine (54:13)

That's right. And a park which had previously been a refuge for me, I would love to go there. After I'd come home from school, I would drink my milk and mint and Pepper's Farms mint cookies, and then I'd run into the park and go through the bushes down to a running track. And I would run and I'd feel the power in my legs, the strength in my legs. And that's where we started when we were going to go to the rape itself. So again, not all at once, but again, at one time, when I was going down to the bushes, something was wrong. And there were these thugs wearing these Marlon Brando hats, and I knew something was wrong. And the hair on my back was standing up. And then I was thrown to the ground. And again, they wanted my parents to know what happened to me so that that would intimidate them to not testify. But I didn't. I was too ashamed. Because it's often what happens when people are traumatized. They have tremendous amount of shame. I was ashamed to tell my parents about it. I hid it hidden from them. I actually kept it hidden from myself. And until I was able to follow these symptoms and be guided, they lay also out of my reach. But they were there haunting me, haunting me, and then waiting for me to make this uncovery. Also. It was not just this event, but the milieu of, you know, because the mafia sent over their lawyer. And so we, my brothers and I, knew something was terribly wrong, but it was never talked about. And finally when it became talked about, well, it actually, it never really became talked about. It was just left in the back. And so that was an additional thing because again, it's not just the trauma that happens to us. You know, when I say in an unspoken voice, one my other books is that trauma is not so much or not just what happens to us, but rather what we hold inside in the absence of that present empathetic other. And so my parents couldn't be that for me because, again, they were under such a struggle of how they would survive at a time we were experiencing some degree of poverty because my father's business, his father's company went out of business. But again, all of these things can be healed. And the trauma itself, I mostly healed in one or two sessions. But the other things, the milieu takes more time. And at the beginning, we were talking about this as being the hard work miracle to really feel supported by others. And one of the things, when people wrote their endorsements in the book, I was so deeply touched by those endorsements that I felt their support. And in a way, their support was coming to me belatedly from the support that I didn't have as a child. And when I talk about that, it does bring waves of sadness and joy and how deeply they supported me and how important their endorsement was to. In helping me really take that last.

Dan Harris (57:42)

Part in healing, the somatic experiencing sessions where you worked on this trauma, what was that like?

Peter A. Levine (57:53)

I mean, of course it was frightening, but my guide knew not to expose me to this all at once, to just touch into it and also to go back and forth between, remember those positive images that I had of being cared about, of being loved, of shifting back and forth between those and the other traumatic images. So not just the trauma images, but shifting back and forth. That's an important aspect. You know, there are also other parts of this that were very important in my development. I don't know if we have time, maybe I can briefly mention when I was developing somatic experiencing and also working on my doctoral dissertation, there was a restaurant. And this. If you think this is gonna. What before was gonna sound woo woo, this is probably gonna sound even more woo woo. I would go to my favorite restaurant, the Beggar's Banquet. The waitresses there, they knew me. They invited me in. I usually started my meal with a. With a bowl of warm soup with French bread. Crunchy on the outside, soft, thin, white, moist on the inside. And I would, you know, I would have something that I was writing on and I worked when I was there. At one moment, I saw a shadow coming to the other side of the table. And I looked up and it was an image of Albert Einstein. And of course I knew that it was an image. That is what Carl Jung called. Oh, gosh, what did he call it? Type of imagery that's very real, that's eidetic, and that that image is very important in our imaginary. That imaginary image. So of course, at one part I knew this was. I was imagining this, but at the same time it seemed almost real. And I would ask the professor questions, and then he would ask me questions about my questions, kind of the Socratic method. And this went on for a good period of almost about a year. Oh, active imagination. That's what Jung called it. So again, the rational part of me knew that this was just an imaginative process, but that I could gain much from it. And so I could say went along with it. And it was something that I felt deeply moved every time we had this dialogue with us. So again, I figured this is something that simply is a, an imaginary image of active imagination. There was no reality to this except some 30 years ago, 35 years ago, I was visiting my parents who live in New York, and I was coming back from spending the day at museums and I walked into the apartment in the Bronx and they were sitting on the sofa and I noticed in the bookshelf there was the theory of relativity by Einstein. So that provoked me to mention to my parents, especially to my mother, my experience with Einstein, my imaginary experience with Einstein. And my mother said those weren't imaginary. And I said what she said. When I was pregnant, eight months pregnant with you, your father and I were canoeing on this lake in New Jersey and a wind squall came and tipped the canoe over and we couldn't write the canoe and we were certainly going to drown. And again, it would have been the end of my life as well, of course, before it started. And. But then a small sailboat came along and there were two people in the sailboat and they rescued my parents. One was their older man and the other one was a young woman. And they introduced themselves as Albert Einstein and his stepdaughter. And so my mother reasoned that because he saved my life in that moment of life threat, that somehow we would stay connected. I know this sounds totally weird, and sometimes, only recently would I have the courage to even talk about this because I would be afraid of people thinking I was weird. But I'm not afraid of that anymore. I think I've earned in getting this work out to literally 100,000 people or 75,000 people worldwide. It's out. Other people are sharing that burden. It's off my shoulders. And the question, have I done enough? Which I try to address in the book, I can say, yes, absolutely, I've done enough because it's on the shoulders of these other people, these 60 odd people who are teaching somatic experiencing. But the question, am I enough? I think that is a work in progress. And that was really what I was trying to ascertain in writing the book for myself was am I enough? And what does that mean? And what does that mean to me? And what does it mean to others who are around me, who care about me and who I care about them?

Dan Harris (63:15)

I find it fascinating that so many men of science, women of science, people of science, have these metaphysical and mystical suspicions and convictions, really, that they're afraid to talk about until, until they could reach A degree of comfort that it can no longer destroy them.

Peter A. Levine (63:32)

Yeah. Dan, thank you for that. Thank you for sharing that, for saying that. I appreciate that.

Dan Harris (63:39)

I would imagine you're not alone.

Peter A. Levine (63:41)

No, No, I don't think so. And again, if that really inspires other people to have those kinds of active imaginations, you know, sometimes as children, our parents say you're just imagining things. You're just imagining ghosts or whatever, rather than saying, tell me about that imagination, you know, and I think, I mean Einstein in his theories. He talks specifically about how the images informed the development of his theories, how important it was for him. He said something like, you know, studying physics is children's play compared to studying children's play. And I think he really, really, really appreciate imagination and how important imagination is and how he gifted me with this gift of imagination. So I would say, don't let anybody tell you you're imagining things. See where they take you. And that was again with my book. I made to follow the truth no matter where it went. I started with a quote, a Jewish what is truer than truth? Answer the story. And I really hope that all of you will tell your stories. If it's only for yourself to do that and if it's to write about it and to publish it, I wish you well. May you stand tall and walk in beauty.

Dan Harris (65:12)

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Peter A. Levine (68:10)

Yes. They're always there. If we are willing to open to them, if we trust enough to open to them, they're always there or we wouldn't have survived. Really. I truly believe that we all have these moments, that of joy, of being cared for, of being excited. Yeah, I think that's part of the human condition. I mean, we may have had a lot of bad stuff happen and many of us do as so did I. But I am convinced that even before trauma, we had this experience of being cared for, being loved. And that will be there after we die. It will always be there. It will be with us. And if we believe that there are such images, I think you'll find they show up. You know, they say, what is it? What's that saying? If you build it, they will come. So if you believe that that's a possibility, I think you'll find that. And it may involve also writing down your dreams and exploring your dreams and relating what the dreams are showing you to what's going on in your body, in your organism, to find greater vitality, greater aliveness, greater here and now, presence.

Dan Harris (69:39)

You said something about how those moments of support, love, connection will be there after we die. But how do we know? How do you or how does anybody know what's going to be there after we die?

Peter A. Levine (69:51)

You got me on that one, Dan. Actually, the last chapter in the book is living My dying. And it's really about starting to face my mortality because at the age I am, there are many more years behind me than in. In front of me. And so I don't know what will happen. And I guess the question I ask myself is, can I stay curious? Can I trust that when it happens, parts of me will. Will occur? This is the part of me here.

Dan Harris (70:28)

He'S holding up a picture of himself as a baby, a toddler.

Peter A. Levine (70:31)

When I had that experience is another experience of joy. And this is who I want to return to. It's he who I want to accompany me when I leave this life.

Dan Harris (70:44)

Well, you were a cute baby.

Peter A. Levine (70:48)

Thank you.

Dan Harris (70:50)

How would that, like, full body joy version of Peter? How would that version of you accompany you when you die? What do you. What do you imagine practically?

Peter A. Levine (71:04)

You know, you're going to get me thinking about this, really thinking about this. You know, somebody, I think it's Stan Kellerman wrote that when we've lived our life fully, we're not afraid of death. And I must say, I'm not there yet. And I think I have a lot more living to do again. I think that's one of the things that motivated me to write the book, to really look at where my next enlivening will be. And, you know, I think death is a great mystery. What Carl Jung called the mysterium tremendum that we do not know. I don't know what it will be like, what will happen. And part of me is scared, but part of me is like I have more things I want to do here in my life that bring me greater joy. You know, there's an expression in Hebrew called tikkum alam which means to leave the world in a better place than you found it. And I hope in one small way that I have left the world in a better place. And I think that also will support a more peaceful passing. So basically, I don't know what it's going to be like. I get hints. My dreams sometimes take me along that pathway. But I continue to ask myself this question. What will it be like? Will I feel loved? Will I feel accompanied? And I hope so. But I don't know for sure. I don't think any of us knows for sure. But as we open into our lives, more fully into our lives, I think then we'll be more fully embodied and ready to shed our bodies as we change our form, as we leave our bodies and go into a place yet unknown in this mystery of tremendousness.

Dan Harris (73:06)

Well said. It's a beautiful place to leave it. Let me ask you, Peter, before I let you go, two questions that I generally ask at the end of interviews. The first is, was there something you were hoping to talk about that we didn't get to, you know?

Peter A. Levine (73:21)

It was a very full discussion. I found myself animated. I found myself emotionally touched. I feel that I'm taking some of this, our interview with me, into my life. And I hope I'll actually have the. The wherewithal to look at the podcast when it's played. But I. I can't think of anything more that I would want to add, except for the parts of my life that are yet unfinished. And I. I hope that I'm moving to finishing those parts.

Dan Harris (73:56)

I hope so, too. I will take many aspects of this interview with me going forward as well. And so let me just finish with this question, which is can you please remind everybody of the name of your new book, the names of your older books, and anything else you want us to know about.

Peter A. Levine (74:11)

Okay. The newest book is called An Autobiography of a Healing Journey. I also wrote, my first book was Waking the Tiger, which I wrote in 1992, but didn't get published till 95 or 6, called Waking the Tiger, Healing Trauma. And then my main book for clinicians, but also for laypeople, is in an Unspoken Voice, how the Body Releases Trauma and Restores Goodness. Really much of the topic of our conversation this time, and then I wrote another book on memory because many laypeople and therapists as well don't really understand the difference between normal memory and traumatic memory. And so I wrote a book titled Trauma and Memory, Brain and Body in the Search for the Living Past. So, again, that gives me another good feeling that I leave that with people to read and to learn from and maybe to remember me. Yeah, to remember me by. And you can go to the website somaticexperiencing.com there's also a link to traumahealing.org and if people want to find therapists in their area, because we have trained therapists in like 44 different countries, you can get that information from their website. From that website.

Dan Harris (75:33)

I'm glad you mentioned that. We will put links to everything that Peter just mentioned in the show notes. So if you're on the go, you can just come back to the show notes and click on them. Meanwhile, Peter A. Levine, thank you very much for coming on today.

Peter A. Levine (75:45)

Gladly. And thank you Dan.

Dan Harris (75:52)

Thanks again to Peter A. Levine. If you're interested in this stuff and you want to go deeper, we are going to post two episodes from the polyvagal therapist Deb Dana. One of them is actually done in collaboration with a meditation teacher named Kyra Jewelingo. We're also going to post a few other episodes including one from Dr. Jacob Hamm and one from from Willow Blythe Baker. And I also want to say if you want to practice with me in person, two opportunities coming up. First, on Sunday, September 21st from 1 o' clock to 5 o', clock, I'll be doing a half day retreat with a great meditation teacher named Leslie Booker who's been on the show before. We'll be doing this at the New York Insight Meditation Center. The workshop is called the Dharma of Depression and Anxiety, which sounds a little dark, but actually it's incredibly useful. And then coming up in October, I'm going to do a weekend long thing at the Omega Institute in Upstate New York. We call it Meditation Party. I'll be joined by my friends 7A Selassie and Jeff Warren, and also this year for the first time, Afosu Jones Corte. That's October 24th through 26th. I'll put links to both of these events in the show notes so sign up. Finally, thank you so much to everybody who worked so hard on the show. Our producers always are Tara Anderson, Caroline Keenan and Eleanor Vasily. Our recording and engineering is handled by the great folks over at Pot People. Lauren Smith is our Managing producer, Marissa Schneiderman is our senior producer, DJ Cashmere is our Executive producer and Nick Thorburn of the band Islands wrote our theme. This episode is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Fiscally responsible financial geniuses, Monetary magicians. These are things people say about drivers who switch their car insurance to Progressive and save hundreds. Visit progressive.com to see if you could save Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates. Potential savings will vary. Not available in all states or situations.