10% Happier with Dan Harris

Episode: "How To Stay Open and Curious Even When You're Exhausted or Annoyed"

Guest: Sarah Ruhl (Playwright, Author, Professor)

Date: October 29, 2025

Overview

In this probing and warmhearted conversation, Dan Harris sits down with acclaimed playwright and essayist Sarah Ruhl to explore the concept of maintaining openness and curiosity—even in the face of exhaustion, annoyance, or adversity. Drawing on Sarah's new book, Lessons from My Teachers: From Preschool to the Present, their discussion spans her personal journey through illness and creative block, the importance of flesh-and-blood teachers, cultivating beginner’s mind, and how to embrace life's challenges as opportunities for learning. The conversation is rich with practical wisdom, memorable stories, and a mutual willingness to laugh at life’s ironies.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Need for Human Teachers in a Digital Age

• [06:20] Sarah describes feeling lost during the pandemic, retreating into her phone for answers—a habit that only exacerbated her despair.

  • Quote [06:20]:
    "I found myself looking for answers on my phone ... and then I thought, no, I need my teachers." – Sarah Ruhl

• She reflects on the difference between relational, real-world teaching and the one-way transactions of internet learning.

  • Quote [07:35]:
    "...when you think of the impact great teachers have had on you, it's usually something very tangible." – Sarah Ruhl

• Implication: True learning often requires an interactive relationship, with both explicit and implicit lessons.

2. Illness, Vulnerability, and the Search for Meaning

• [07:41-09:00] Sarah opens up about her struggle with Bell’s palsy and undiagnosed Lyme disease, the psychological toll, and how writing about her experience eventually led to a correct diagnosis.

• Emotional expression—especially the inability to smile—brought insights about the social dimension of joy, love, and identity.

  • Quote [10:45]:
    "It's like you sort of feel like you can have joy internally, but if you can't show it, what is the experience of the joy?" – Sarah Ruhl

• Memorable Story [12:12]:
  Sarah shares how her own mother once misread her lack of visible affect at a play opening, underscoring how much we rely on nonverbal cues.

3. Orienting to Life as a Perpetual Student

• [14:23] Dan distills Sarah’s message: anyone and everyone can be a teacher; the real work is adopting a student’s mindset.

  • Quote [14:47]:
    "At the end of the day, it's about being in the position of a student and enjoying that position of curiosity." – Sarah Ruhl

• Discussion of Buddhist teaching: even annoying people are valuable, as they help us develop patience and openness.

4. Gratitude, Vulnerability & Inviting Mentorship

• [16:02-17:45] Sarah explains that recognizing and feeling gratitude for her own teachers made her more open to future mentorship.

• She notes vulnerability and bravery are required to "raise your hand" and seek mentorship, not just wait for it to arrive.

  • Quote [17:45]:
    "You have to raise your hand and say... I'm open enough to be taught." – Sarah Ruhl

• Dan adds [18:32]:

  • Imposter syndrome often surfaces when stepping into the role of teacher, even in informal settings.

5. Who Counts as a Teacher? Broadening the Definition

• [21:24] Reflection on the many suboptimal but vital teachers in one’s past: "Somebody taught you how to tie your shoes, how to swim..."

• [22:01] Sarah describes learning from her babysitter, a Tibetan Buddhist named Yang Zam.

  • Quote [23:09]:
    "Some of the teachings didn't seem reducible. Some of them seemed like I had to tell a story in time and place about the person, that part of the learning was their presence." – Sarah Ruhl

• [24:32] Sarah’s key thesis: there is irreplaceable value in the physical, present relationship between teacher and student.

  • Quote [24:32]:
    "Teachers are always teaching explicitly and implicitly." – Sarah Ruhl

6. Curiosity, Openness, and Beginner’s Mind in Practice

• [26:11] The ability to learn from anyone may be innate or cultivated by adversity.

  • Quote [26:20]:
    "Maybe life is pounding enough at your psyche that you don't have a choice but to open." – Dan Harris

• [26:43] Sarah notes her struggles with Bell's palsy made her more receptive.

• Dan highlights the idea that painful experiences often end up being powerful teachers, a view Sarah affirms but gently complicates.

7. How to Remember Openness (and Practices for Beginners’ Mind)

• [29:52] Dan discusses physical reminders (FTBOAB tattoo: "For the Benefit of All Beings") and the value of visible cues to maintain perspective and openness.

  • Quote [30:49]:
    "We need reminders, I think, to live life as a student." – Sarah Ruhl

• Meditation and reflection help retrain curiosity away from selfishness and toward usefulness to others.

  • Quote [32:49]:
    "Dalai Lama calls it wise selfishness. If you're thinking about other people's benefit, you will be happier." – Dan Harris

8. Stepping into the Role of Teacher—Even if You're Reluctant

• [37:31] Sarah describes how she stumbled into teaching at Yale and had to overcome imposter syndrome.

  • Memorable Dream [38:13]:
    She dreamt she couldn’t speak in front of her mentor Paula Vogel, symbolizing her anxiety about stepping into her own authority.

• Teaching is a practice, not a fixed identity.

  • Quote [39:39]:
    "Can we think about ourselves as having something to teach? It's just a really beautiful question. And again, I think it presupposes some confidence." – Sarah Ruhl

• The best teachers are animated by love for their students or their craft.

9. Teachers and Students: The Infinite Loop

• [43:33] Sarah recounts learning from Max Ritvo, a brilliant student facing terminal illness. Their relationship evolved from teacher-student to collaborators to Max becoming her teacher.
  • Quote [45:22]:
    "...the student becomes the teacher, and it just keeps going in this infinite loop." – Sarah Ruhl

10. Can You Be Your Own Teacher?

• [46:17] Sarah argues that true learning requires “the other”—internalization of lessons begins with external relationship.
  • Quote [46:22]:
    "You can't. ... we require the other. If knowledge is a social phenomenon, you need another person. Go and find another person." – Sarah Ruhl

11. What Does It Mean to Have a Meditation Teacher?

• [52:30-57:43] Sarah and Dan discuss the role of spiritual teachers, and the gradations from synchronous, interactive relationships to learning from public talks or writings.

  • Sarah’s experience [52:39]:
    A chance encounter with Lama Pema in Penn Station led her to formative teachings about joy and smiling, and showed her the element of grace or synchronicity in finding teachers.

• Teachers traditionally offer personalized feedback, but modern forms include virtual and periodic interactions.

12. Presence, Transmission, and Soft Teachings

• [58:40-59:33] They reflect on the intangible but powerful impact of a teacher’s presence, citing Joseph Goldstein’s calming influence and the Zen concept of “the soft sermon of your pores.”

  • Quote [59:33]:
    "I just see how he handles stuff." – Dan Harris, on learning from Joseph Goldstein in daily life

13. Openness to Synchronicity and Signs

• [65:43] Sarah shares a striking dream in which she received two $2 bills—exactly what her friend had set aside for her, a coincidence she reads as a sign of interconnectedness and artistic intuition.

  • Quote [68:26]:
    "Well, then everything's magic. ...it can wake you up." – Dan Harris

• They agree that holding a somewhat “magical” view can be both grounding and creatively inspiring.

14. Lessons from Critics and Difficult Teachers: Persistence and Resilience

• [76:33] Sarah tells a story about an art teacher’s negative assignment that ultimately reinforced her stubborn artistic voice.

  • Quote [78:14]:
    "The tricky teachers, sometimes all we learn from them is how to get through and how to not have a toxic teacher ruin our enthusiasm and our joy for the task." – Sarah Ruhl

• Rejection as inoculation: Sarah shares Paula Vogel’s advice on categorizing rejection letters as a way to build resilience.

  • Quote [79:58]:
    "...Paula was modeling not just the content, but how to survive as a writer in the world, I felt like, okay, I can do this thing." – Sarah Ruhl

15. The Ultimate Lesson: Lightness and Love

• [70:29] Sarah relays Dr. Mark Epstein’s teaching that the point of therapy and meditation is not a guaranteed solution, but lightness and flexibility.

  • Quote [70:29]:
    "The point is lightness. That that was the goal of both." – Sarah Ruhl, paraphrasing Mark Epstein

• Dan and Sarah discuss titles for his next book, settling on the idea that humor, self-acceptance, and “lightening up” are crucial for a healthy mind and heart.

  • Quote [73:35]:
    "When you see that something's absurd, it is a kind of—not enlightenment, but it's delicious." – Sarah Ruhl

Memorable Quotes & Moments (with Timestamps)

• On the necessity of human teachers:
  "When we learn things from the Internet or AI or Masterclass or whatever, the relation is the one thing that's totally removed." – [06:20], Sarah Ruhl

• On the social nature of joy:
  "If you can't smile or evince joy or show joy in your face, it's really hard. So it took all my wherewithal to kind of get through that." – [10:45], Sarah Ruhl

• Openness born from adversity:
  "Maybe life is pounding enough at your psyche that you don't have a choice but to open." – [26:20], Dan Harris

• On teaching as love:
  "I do think there's a love that animates the willingness to teach." – [41:54], Sarah Ruhl

• On learning from anyone:
  "Teachers are always teaching explicitly and implicitly." – [24:32], Sarah Ruhl

• On humor, lightness, and growth:
  "When you see that something's absurd, it is a kind of—not enlightenment, but it's delicious." – [73:35], Sarah Ruhl

Timestamps for Key Segments

| Time | Segment | |-----------|--------------------------------------------------------------------| | 05:48 | Sarah’s backstory and the need for flesh-and-blood teachers | | 07:41 | Battle with Bell’s palsy and Lyme disease: impact on learning | | 14:23 | Orienting to life as a student—teacher in everyone | | 16:02 | Gratitude, vulnerability, and inviting mentorship | | 21:24 | Who counts as a teacher? Everyday encounters and gratitude | | 24:32 | Teaching implicitly and explicitly; presence matters | | 26:20 | Life's challenges fostering openness | | 29:52 | Practical reminders and living for the benefit of others | | 37:31 | Sarah’s path to teaching and overcoming imposter feelings | | 43:33 | When the student becomes the master—Sarah and Max Ritvo | | 46:17 | Can you be your own teacher? The necessity of relationship | | 52:30 | What does it mean to have a meditation teacher? | | 58:40 | Presence, transmission, learning through osmosis | | 65:43 | Openness to signs, synchronicity, and the magical in daily life | | 76:33 | Lessons from critics and difficult teachers: resilience and art | | 70:29 | Therapy, meditation, and Mark Epstein: cultivating lightness |

Tone & Language

The conversation is conversational, candid, and often humorous. Both Dan and Sarah weave personal anecdotes, humility, and references to Buddhist philosophy seamlessly throughout, balancing vulnerability with laughter, and turning even difficult topics like illness or rejection into opportunities for wry insight or connection.

Conclusion

This episode is a compelling call to re-engage with curiosity, humility, and openness—qualities that help us grow through adversity and connect more deeply with others. The stories and insights shared by Sarah Ruhl model what it means to stay open (even when exhausted or annoyed) and to—in the words of Dan and Sarah—embrace lightness and love as animating forces for learning, teaching, and living well.

Sarah Ruhl's Book:
Lessons from My Teachers: From Preschool to the Present

Web: www.sararuhlplaywright.com