Sam Harris (3:45)

Coming up in the next couple of.

Dan Harris (3:46)

Months, but the thing that I'm really looking forward to, the bright spot on my calendar is in a few weeks I'm going to Montauk, which is one of my favorite places in the world. It's on the eastern tip of Long Island. It's primarily known as a summer spot, but it's actually beautiful year round. I'm going to Montauk with 1, 2, 3, 4, at least four families that are close friends of ours. They all have children who get along really well with my child, and we'll all be staying not at hotels, but in houses. I love being in a big house with lots of other people. It is so much more personal and intimate than staying in a hotel with other families. With many of these families, we've gone to places like Florida and gotten Airbnbs together. Being able to stay together in a beautiful place is so much fun and again, so much more intimate. And here's the cool thing. If you're going to be traveling soon, you might actually be sitting on an Airbnb gold mine. You might be able to put your own residence up on Airbnb so you can actually earn money while you're taking a vacation. I'm a huge fan of Airbnb. Your home might be worth more than you think. Find out how much@airbnb.com host.

Unknown (5:07)

I just.

Joseph Goldstein (5:08)

Want to say at the outset how happy I am to be doing this with both of you I mean, this is just like, had I dreamt it, this would be a dream come true. I mean, this came together very quickly, as you both know. But it's just crazy good fortune to be able to do this with both of you. So I'm in very good company with you guys. But. So I think the idea here, Joseph, was. Because you are 80 years old, which sounds impossible. And I've known you as well. I've known you since you were 46. And I know that because you're exactly 23 years older than me. And I was 23. So I knew you were double my age at the time. We just want to get the most out of you. And we thought we would structure it based on the Eightfold Path. But obviously, we can follow any other line that is of interest. But we just want to get Joseph Goldstein's wisdom mind right here in the present.

Sam Harris (6:02)

Just to say that I'm also really psyched to be here. And I was thinking about my. Our good fortune on the walk over to this nice little cottage we're in. And I was remembering the conversation that started this. You and I were out to breakfast. I was in your state, and we were talking about what kind of work I could do with and for you. And you said, you know, you and.

Dan Harris (6:25)

Joseph should go on a retreat.

Sam Harris (6:27)

And then every afternoon, just record some audio and see what you get. And then there was a pause. He looked down and said, I have to be there.

Joseph Goldstein (6:37)

Yeah, no, just the words came out of my mouth, and the sentence wasn't finished. And I realized, wait a minute. What am I saying here? I'm giving away all the good stuff.

Unknown (6:46)

So.

Joseph Goldstein (6:47)

Yeah.

Unknown (6:47)

Well, I do like the phrase see what you get. So we'll see what we get. Yeah.

Sam Harris (6:53)

Meaning we could wind you up, and we could end up.

Unknown (6:56)

Who knows? Who knows?

Sam Harris (7:00)

Maybe Start by telling us a little bit about what the Eightfold Path is.

Unknown (7:05)

Okay. So basically, the Eightfold Path is really clear instructions of or about the path leading to awakening. And at one point, somebody asked the Buddha, are there still enlightened beings in the world? And his response was, as long as people are still practicing the Eightfold Path, there will be enlightened beings in the world. And so pretty direct statement that it's a path, and it's a path that leads to someplace. And where it leads to is whatever we'd like to call it. Enlightenment, awakening, freedom, liberation. But that's the power of this particular framework. And it's pretty interesting because the framework is not only about meditative insight. You know, the Eightfold Path includes so much about just living wisely in the world. It's a beautiful framework to unpack.

Sam Harris (8:06)

Can I ask you a foundational question? Because I think I've asked you this before but I can't remember the answer and I definitely haven't asked you recently. When Joseph says words like enlightenment and liberation, where do you, Mr. Skeptical Atheist stand vis a vis all of that?

Joseph Goldstein (8:22)

I mean there's probably some translation required based on some of the doctrines in Buddhism. But I mean I have a very grandiose picture of what is possible as far as the far reaches of human well being. So enlightenment, there's an enlightenment shaped terminus to all these efforts that I'm totally happy to believe in because it's something that I think we can experience. We can sort of sample along the way too, so we'll get into this topic at some point. But there are differences of opinion about what the final realization is. But if it were only a matter of stabilizing the thing that many of us have experienced along the way, in my view we could call that enlightenment or realization or whatever you want to talk about it. It's so freeing psychologically with respect to what is normal. Our default sense that it's. Many of the spooky sounding ideas in Buddhism I think are just true like the self being an illusion, say that can become obvious and you can actually no longer overlook that obvious fact of the mind and that there's a psychological freedom that comes with that. But enlightenment as we know also there are doctrines that are attached to it. Like the enlightenment of the Buddha entails things like omniscience and magic powers and, and that's where I begin to worst agnostic there. But perhaps we'll talk about that spooky stuff as well.

Sam Harris (9:51)

I love the spooky stuff. I think there are two points worth making. One is the Buddha was very clear. Don't take anything I say at face value. Check it out in the laboratory of your own mind. I don't think those were his exact words, but it was roughly close enough. Yeah, roughly speaking. So this is a tradition that skeptics and I would count myself one of those can I think safely explore. And then the second thing back on enlightenment is I believe the classical understanding of what enlightenment is is the uprooting of greed, hatred and delusion. If I have that right and you'll correct me if I'm wrong, that's a pretty big claim.

Unknown (10:26)

Yeah. And I think that that particular way of framing what enlightenment means, I think it's really useful because it's very. It's not abstract. You know, it says very specifically what qualities in the mind which create suffering are uprooted when one is awakened or enlightened. Because often the Buddha would refer to what he teaches as being, teaching, suffering and the end of suffering. So that's really the bottom line. And he said that he knew much more about the nature of the world, the universe, perhaps the mysterious things. So his knowledge was vast, but what he taught was just that which led to the end of suffering. And so that becomes, I think, a really pragmatic measure for us to assess our own practice. Even all along the way, are we suffering less or more? And it becomes pretty obvious through some degree of awareness and mindfulness and meditative insight that greed, hatred, delusion are causes of suffering in generosity, love, wisdom, the causes of greater happiness. So this is not mystical, and I think it's easily verifiable in one's own experience all along the way. So that's why I like that particular frame. There are other more ways of understanding enlightenment that are not so easily verifiable for most people. So that's why this one, I think, really serves that purpose.

Sam Harris (12:06)

Might be worth saying a little bit about what suffering is, because I think to a lay ear that sounds like, oh, I'm chained to a rock and crows are pecking out my innards. But there's a pretty well, where is that? That's a flavor that is on offer if you find the right person to tie you up. But you talk about the constituents parts being great hatred and delusion. Maybe just unpack that a little.

Unknown (12:30)

Well, in a way, those are two different questions, or they're related, but somewhat different I came across online someplace, I don't remember where. For me, the perfect definition of suffering and suffering is the translation of the Pali word dukkha. And it's not a very good translation because generally we think of suffering when we're in pain. And so there's a very tangible aspect to suffering. But dukkha means something much greater. And the definition, which I have come to love because it feels so comprehensive, is the inevitability of unwanted experiences. The inevitability of unwanted experiences. And these unwanted experiences can take many forms. And this particular phrase highlights some of the other insights of practice. Why is there the inevitability of unwanted experiences? Because everything is unstable, everything is continually changing. And there's another phrase in the text which, again, I've really come to love because it's a little unusual in English, but it just Makes the truth of impermanence very vivid. It says things always becoming otherwise. In every moment, things are becoming otherwise. And because that's not a usual expression for us. When I first came across that. Yes. And it really helps to remember that. Just a couple of examples, I could be going for a walk and then, I don't know, my knee starts to hurt. So now my first thought, oh, becoming otherwise. So it's just a reminder that this is the nature. Things are unstable, they're changing, they're becoming otherwise. And so to have the idea that they should be stable or they should stay the same way is a cause of dukkha. So there's a lot. There's a lot in there, yeah.

Joseph Goldstein (14:50)

That cuts through a common misconception about what the Buddha taught. Because many people think that the punchline of Buddhism is life is suffering. Right. And as though everything sucks. And there's no acknowledgment of real happiness or pleasure. But at least in one sutta, I think it's the Mahamungala sutta, where he talks about kind of a hierarchy of happiness, acknowledging that having a healthy body is a form of happiness, having a healthy family is a form of happiness. But yeah, it's the instability of all that. If you're clinging, I mean, this connects to greed, hatred and delusion. If you're trying to hold on to something that's intrinsically unstable, you just have to wait around long enough and you will begin to feel the dissatisfaction of dukkha.

Unknown (15:34)

And likewise, if you're pushing away what's unpleasant and you have aversion to it, that very resistance to it is a. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Joseph Goldstein (15:46)

Well, so maybe we can drill down on this point here a little more. How do you think of clinging in this spot? Clinging as the root of the problem?

Unknown (15:56)

This was an image that somebody on retreat, they came in for a meditation interview, you know, and they were describing their experience and they said, you know, suffering is like rope burn. You know, if you're holding on tightly to a rope and it's being pulled through your hand, the tighter you hold on, the more rope burn. Is there going to be. Well, the rope being pulled through one's hand is the truth of things always becoming otherwise. The more we hold on tightly, the tighter we hold on. Of course it's suffering, it's painful. And so the release is really in letting go. There are a million images for this. Another one of my favorite images describes a monkey trap that they use in Sri Lanka where they tie a hollowed out coconut to A tree, and there's a hole. They put some sweet food in the coconut with a hole big enough for the monkey to slide its hand in when it's open, but not big enough for it to withdraw its hand when it's in a fist. Okay, Monkey comes along, smells the food, puts his hand in, it grabs the food. He's caught. The hunter's coming. He's getting frantic. Perhaps all he has to do, or she is open hand, slip out and be free. But it's a very rare monkey that can do that because of the force, the habit, the deeply conditioned habit of grasping to what's pleasant, holding on. So there are a lot of aspects.

Joseph Goldstein (17:42)

So to link up to Dan's question earlier about the goal of all this and just how far it reaches, how far do you think the ordinary forms of suffering can be mitigated through this thing we're calling enlightenment or awakening? I mean, just what is. You know, if you imagine. I guess we could throw out some terminology here, because I'm sure it'll come up. You know, a Buddha is the kind of the ultimate example of enlightenment historically within the teachings of Buddhism. But there are more minor examples which in your tradition are called arhants or arhats, which have uprooted all the greed, hatred, and delusion, but then don't have all the magic qualities associated with a Buddha. I think we can. You know, the agnostic in me wants to table all of that, come back around. But when you imagine fully untying the knot of clinging in yourself, what is that synonymous with in terms of suffering and the absence of suffering, can you get surgery without anesthesia? And that's just as good as an experience as any other. Or is there some. How do you think about it?

Unknown (18:55)

So there are a lot of different ways to think about it. So one image I like to use, if I'm thinking about the awakening of the Buddha, and I'm just projecting that, or the awakening of the fully enlightened being. But who's not the Buddha? One of the things that becomes obvious in our meditation practice, and I think this is true of everyone, is that we all find ourselves in a comfort zone of what's okay, what we can easily be with. And it could be feelings in the body, different emotions, thought patterns, whatever. We have our comfort zone. Then in the course of practice and vipassana, we come to the edges of our comfort zone, and we're just sitting and undistracted and not moving away from things and not trying to avoid the edges when we're just sitting and practicing, being mindful. We get to the edges. Maybe it's a certain level of discomfort in the body. Maybe it's a really painful emotion. Okay? So we're at the edge, which is where we want to be in the practice. And this might be an interesting point to emphasize that the point of the practice is not to avoid, that the practice is actually. It's of benefit when it leads us to that place. Because then we can play at the edge and learn how to relax into whatever that experience might be without holding onto it and without pushing it away. And so we get to the edge, maybe discomfort or emotion. Okay. It's okay. It's okay. Let me feel it. And so we relax into it. We relax into that experience. And in that relaxation, we are seeing the impermanent, impersonal nature of it. And so our comfort zone gets a little bigger. That's now within our comfort zone. Go on, go on, go on. Come to a few more retreats. Do our practice. We come to another edge, go through the same process. And so I see the practice of freedom, the gradual process of it unfolding is that we are enlarging our comfort zone. And my projection of the fully enlightened mind is a mind without edges. There's no edge. And so whatever it is that arises, the mind is relating to it from a place of greater freedom. So this is one way of.

Joseph Goldstein (21:38)

Can I ask you a question about that without derailing you?

Unknown (21:41)

As long as it's an easy one, yeah.

Joseph Goldstein (21:43)

You seem to have linked seeing the impersonal, impermanent nature of phenomenon there with the expansion of the comfort zone. I'm not sure that's intuitive for everybody. I mean, how does Seeing the impersonal nature of it. I guess people could understand how impermanence may give one a sense of more comfort. Because you see the moment, something's there, let's say pain, it's disappearing before you can even really make contact with it. But how is an insight into selflessness or the impersonal nature of phenomenon at all helpful here when you've got a pain in the knee?

Unknown (22:22)

Well, it is very different. Not taking it personally. And so I'll just give you an example kind of in a meditative progression. Okay, we're sitting or walking, and all of a sudden our knee hurts. And very often the first reaction is, I don't like it. It's painful. My knee is killing me. Then in the course of meditation, it's like we drop underneath the level of the concept knee because we actually don't feel a knee, there's no sensation called knee, so we don't feel knee. Knee is a concept which we're overlaying on a certain experience of certain sensations. The problem is that the concept reifies it as if the knee is something stable there, more or less permanent. So on that level of concept, we are not seeing the changing nature of what's really going on. So through the practice, even though our first reaction is, oh, my knees, my knee really hurts. But then with some understanding, we drop that and drop into the level of the element sensations. The tightness, the burning, the stabbing, the this and that. As we drop into that level, not only are we seeing the impermanence of what's going on, it gives pretty direct access to at least the beginning understanding of selflessness. Because while we might very easily go from knee to my knee, it's not very likely that we would go from vibration to my vibration or heat, my heat. And in the more classical Buddhist teachings, those sensations are described in terms of four basic elements. You know, Earth, air, fire, water, which is a classical framework from those years. But actually, I've been told that there is a modern equivalent of those four elements. Solidity. What are the four states of matter? Plasma, gas, gas, liquid, solid. Yeah, even though earth, air, fire, water is kind of a, you know, the ancient. The ancient terminology, I think there is, you know, the more modern vocabulary.

Joseph Goldstein (25:08)

If you find any plasma in there, I'll. I'll want to hear about it.

Unknown (25:11)

Well, I'm not even sure what plasma is, but.

Joseph Goldstein (25:14)

But anyway, it's unlikely to be in your knee.

Unknown (25:20)

It's just that this. When we're on that level, it's not so likely to claim it as being I and mine. And that's why one of the key turning points in the meditation practice is when people gradually go from the level of their concepts about what's happening to the direct experience, whether to the physical elements or the mind elements, because it's on that level that we begin to see the impermanent, impersonal nature.

Joseph Goldstein (25:54)

But do you think that all of the suffering of, let's say, physical pain here, because it's the most concrete, is a matter of the psychological resistance to it born of aversion and clinging. A mind without any clinging in the presence of still objectively excruciatingly unpleasant sensation in the body, do you actually imagine that to be a mind that is indifferent to those sensations compared to any other thing that's on the menu, or is it just. Most of the suffering is reduced?

Unknown (26:34)

So this may stretch most people's view of what's possible. But there is a story from. From the Buddha's time which I'm a little hesitant to share because it seems so far out of the range of possibility for most people. But if we're willing to consider the possibility that a truly free mind may be experiencing things very differently than we do, it might give some indication. So after the Buddha was enlightened, he was walking around with the monks and the nuns, and he told them. He recounted a story from one of his previous lives when he was known as a bodhisattva practicing. And he was a hermit living in the forest. And the queen of the country and some of her following were walking through the forest. They came upon him, and they were really interested in the teachings, and so he would be giving them teachings anyway. The king was very upset that his queen had gone off and become a devotee of this hermit. And so the king, who was not a very nice fellow, ordered his guards or whatever to go. The hermit. Here's where it gets a little gruesome, right?

Joseph Goldstein (28:09)

We like to start all these sessions with stories of torture and dismemberment. So feel free, Justin.

Unknown (28:15)

But this is a story. I'm not making this up, you know. So the king, you know, orders the guards basically to kill a hermit by sawing off his arms and legs. Pretty gruesome, horrible story. The Buddha in his lifetime as a Buddha. Now he's fully awakened, he's recounting this story. And he said something which can make one sit up straight. He said, even then, and he was not even yet fully awakened. He was a bodhisattva working towards awakening. He said, even then, my mind harbored no ill will or aversion. And if you are truly following my teachings, you should emulate that. So that's a rather high bar. But what's interesting. So even if we don't go to that extreme, which hopefully none of us will have to, but we can see it at work even in more modest. When we are feeling pain and even quite intense pain. And this happens, I think all of us have experienced that at times in our meditation where it can get pretty painful. And seeing the difference in our own minds when we're contracted in the face of it and when we can relax in the face of it. And so, again, there's the famous example of the two arrows. Somebody shoots you with an arrow. The first arrow is the pain, painful sensation. The second arrow is all the mental suffering we might add to the physical pain from the first Arrow. So that's all the second arrow. And the Buddha's pointing out that it's the second arrow that we can really work with. The first arrow hits, it's painful. That's life. But how we're relating to it is really up to us.

Sam Harris (30:13)

Might be worth saying, oh, sorry, no.

Unknown (30:15)

I was just going to check out.

Dan Harris (30:17)

My.

Joseph Goldstein (30:20)

Two is not enough.

Sam Harris (30:21)

Joseph, just to get back to this term of letting go, I can imagine to if somebody's listening to this and hearing the dharma or Buddhism for the first or among the first times, the question could come up, like, where's this heading? Like, does this mean I don't give a shit about anything? I don't try at work, I don't try in my relationships. What does letting go look like in practicality?

Unknown (30:44)

I think letting go, I don't think that's the best phrase, even though we use it a lot. But some time ago, I don't even know who first suggested it. But using the phrase letting be works for many people much better than letting go. Because when you hear letting go, oh, what am I supposed to do? And how do I let go? And it can feel complicated, but also.

Joseph Goldstein (31:08)

When something's unpleasant, it doesn't seem like you're holding onto it. It's not intuitive to say that letting go of this pain is how do I do that? But if you let it be, that's.

Unknown (31:18)

And the letting be works because in the letting be, we're seeing the changing nature, we're seeing the flow. And so the letting go happens organically rather than by anything we're doing. So what was the question, Joseph?

Joseph Goldstein (31:33)

Let go of even of your question.

Unknown (31:36)

Which happens quite a lot.

Sam Harris (31:37)

This is the mind without edges. There are a lot of people, myself, I would put myself in this category, who care about peak performance and achievement in various spheres of our lives. And so the idea of not clinging, letting go, maybe some further explication could.

Unknown (31:57)

Help one of the problems in the transmission of Buddhism. But really anything else from one culture to another, a lot of the problems come out of translation, linguistic translation. So the teachings that we've inherited in this tradition are basically in the Pali language, an ancient language of India, very related to Sanskrit, but the more vernacular version and in Pali, it's a language that is very specifically geared in the way it was used by the Buddha and, and the teachers of that time. It has very specific vocabulary for the nuances of different mind qualities and factors and sensations in the body. So for example, and you know, when it's translated into English, very often there's not the same precision. So a very common example is the word desire. Because often in the teachings they will be interpreted as the Buddha says to let go of desire. And so this speaks to your question. You know, what about desire for accomplishing things in the world or doing things in the world? The problem is that desire means a lot of different things, whereas in Pali there are different words for each of those meanings of desire. So for example, if there's desire to get ahead in the world, be number one, whatever. What's important, or the way of assessing the particular meaning of desire as we're using that word in English would be to really have a very good and clear sense of the motivation associated with it. And so, yeah, I have a desire to be number one. Okay, what's that motivation? Is it greed? Is it ambition? Is it selfing in some big way? Or desire to get ahead, desire to do good in the world? There's another word in poly to describe the desire of wholesome motivations. And so it really depends on what's going on in the mind. What's the motivation? In some of the situations you described, people could be motivated a lot by greed and by self aggrandizement and by wanting to be number one. But there are a lot of people doing fantastic things in the world, you know, motivated by compassion, motivated by love, and doing hugely effective work, which is very different than the other, even though in English we use the same word. So that's why it can get confusing for people. Because generally in the Buddhist teachings, with a superficial reading, we might read, oh, the point is to get rid of desire. But without drilling down into what that really means.

Joseph Goldstein (35:14)

How does that relate to the concept of craving though? So the desire for sense pleasure or just having preferences between, like, you don't like broccoli, you like chocolate, you want more chocolate, Is there an enlightened version of that? Or does the non clinging, non craving goal that you're envisioning nullify those kinds of distinctions? I think we've spoken about this before, but if you bring the Buddha to the breakfast buffet on Maui, does he not want anything? Does he not know what he wants more than any other thing? Is he like a catatonic that you have to move out of the line there? Or does he have all of the preferences that he had before his enlightenment, but they're just held in a very different psychological space?

Unknown (36:10)

First, I have to say that although I can understand your inclination to have me speak for the Buddha, this is your challenge. I do want to say that That's a little overreach. And so all I can do is express my limited understanding of what the Buddha mind would be like. So this is just to clean up my karmic, my potential karmic.

Joseph Goldstein (36:36)

That having been said, you win Buddhist plot. As for being humble in that way, but based on your experience.

Unknown (36:43)

No, I get the question.

Joseph Goldstein (36:44)

You have an expectation of what freedom will seem like, so what will it seem like? And I bring you back to the breakfast buffet at the appropriate hotel from.

Unknown (36:56)

My current level of understanding. So I'm leaving the door open for future revision. It's not. Not having preferences, it's not being attached to the preferences. So in this hypothetical Buddha going up to the buffet table, oh, sweet buns. I've been wanting. I've been thinking about sweet buns all morning. And then there are no sweet buns. They're serving broccoli fritters. My imagination of the Buddha's mind is that it would not cause a ripple because there would be no attachment to the preference even if there had been a preference. And yes, I just want to reiterate that I really don't know whether the Buddha would have even had a preference or not, but I could imagine the scenario I just described.

Joseph Goldstein (37:53)

So to come back to our starting point, when you envision the path of practice as being more and more the ability to open, to expand the edges of our tolerance for dukkha on some level, why not play the game very differently? Why not just. If the final result is just not being attached to the falsification of one's preferences, why couldn't one practice keeping the sweet buns within arm's reach as much as possible, but noticing those times where they're not available, and then that's the edge. So, for instance, to bring this back to a pain in the knee, why not move mindfully every time there is a pain in the knee? Being just as aware of that and the impermanence of all that and all of one's efforts to be comfortable can be prosecuted with the full glare of mindfulness, presumably. So what failure mode do you imagine one's practice gets into there if one's constantly feathering one's?

Unknown (38:58)

Just at the beginning of this conversation, I have to listen to ground rules. Don't string too many questions together because the second one will push out the first. So I'll address the last one you mentioned, because I already forgot the first.

Joseph Goldstein (39:17)

It was part of the last contained the first.

Unknown (39:19)

Yeah. Okay, so there's discomfort in the body. Why not just move every time There are different ways we could address that question, but kind of the one that comes to mind most readily is because given the truth of dukkha, the inevitability of unwanted experiences, so that's inevitable, that is going to come in our lives. And the fact that, yes, sometimes there may be a pain and we move and it goes away, but there will inevitably be times when we're experiencing pain in the body and moving is not going to make it go away. That that is just the reality of whatever that situation is at the moment. So have we trained ourselves to be more accepting of that? Without resistance, without fear, or when the pain is there and it's not going away and we don't have the option just to change position to have it go away, are we going to be with that pain? Could be with a wide range of second arrows of things that create even more suffering, of fear, of resistance, of depression, of rage. It could be a lot of different things. So it's an important training, and this is part of the training in practice is to increase our capacity to hold what's pleasant and unpleasant equally with equanimity, because that's going to serve us in our lives of creating a life of greater ease, because things are always becoming otherwise and often out of our control. So I see it as just a really important training. And the Buddha talked about this, an example of this, and something that's found a lot in the suttas, where the Buddha would visit people who were sick and dying, and he would ask them, you know, he would say, oh, I hope you're. The pain is diminishing. And in that vein, and the person would say, no, it's not diminishing. It's getting stronger and stronger and more intense. And they use some vivid images for that. And the Buddha's remark in almost all of these situations is, though your body is afflicted, may your mind remain unafflicted. So to me, that's one expression of the free mind. The body is going to be afflicted. It's the nature of the body. There's no getting around that one way or another. But then this is the power, I think, of the teachings and the practice is that we can actually train our minds over time and increasingly so, not all at once. But even as the body is afflicted in one way or another, the mind remains unafflicted. And so this is the fact that's the purpose of working with pain. When it's manageable, and even if we could move to alleviate it, we don't at least for some time, to just practice. Okay, Can I be with this? Can I relax into it?

Joseph Goldstein (42:33)

Well, that actually builds a bridge to my next question, which is we've been talking a lot about physical pain and the perhaps mitigation or total, total mitigation of attendant psychological suffering. But obviously, meditation is mostly thought of not so much as an antidote for physical pain, but for mental suffering in all its forms, most of which have nothing to do with your body being uncomfortable. Right. So there's the pain of sadness or disappointment or shame or terror. I mean, there's all these psychological states which are a kind of ethereal pain. I mean, they do sort of map to the body, and we feel them in the body as unpleasant as well. But their status as forms of unpleasantness is somewhat hard to get a hold of. And yet they really are the basis of most of human suffering. The states we get into based on our thoughts about past, present, and future. And what I'm hearing is that basically all of that is optional. The real promise of meditation is, though, the first arrow of physical pain is inevitable. The arrow of mental suffering in all its forms. Certainly suffering based on your thoughts about past, present, and future, that is a dream from which it is possible to awaken. And that is, on some level, I think, to the average person, no less grandiose a promise than the promise that you could have your legs cut off and be a quantumist with that. Right. So how do you think about mental suffering in this context?

Unknown (44:12)

Yeah, I mean, first, to reiterate your point, the Buddha commented that actually mental suffering, I don't know if you use the word worse, but is much worse than physical suffering. And I think we know this because, at least in my experience, with physical suffering, even when it's intense and maybe the mind is not perfectly equanimous, but in my experience, there's still a possibility of creating some sense of distance from it, you know, which mitigates the suffering, a bit of it. But when there's mental suffering, that often feels all pervasive, you know, it often feels very hard to find some distance from it for an untrained mind. So it's in that sense, I think, that the Buddha said mental suffering is really more challenging than physical suffering. But the whole teaching is about how to free ourselves from that mental suffering. And there are just so many different specific ways depending on what the particular mental suffering is. But one of the most transforming insights which goes completely against our general conditioning. Okay, I just want to back up a minute. We started this Conversation saying we were going to talk about the Eightfold Path.

Joseph Goldstein (45:42)

Yeah, we haven't gotten to the first.

Unknown (45:44)

Fold of the path, so I just want to reference it and then we can get back to it and then go deeper into it. But the first step of the Eightfold Path is right view. And we can go into a longer discussion. That itself is a huge discussion. There are a lot of elements to it. But I came across this one teaching which described one very common expression of wrong view. And it's the feeling or it's the experience of I'm happy, I'm sad, I'm excited, I'm afraid, I'm depressed, I'm bored, I'm loving da da da. Go through long list of all the different mind states. And of course, this is how we speak. And this is very often how we. We experience these things. Oh, I'm feeling happy, I'm feeling grief. So why is it the wrong view? Because this is the common way we interpret our experience. The wrong view aspect is the claiming of that mind state to be self, to be I, which is so deeply embedded in our conditioning. So the relief from that suffering is as we begin to be mindful enough and aware enough of the emotions themselves as being impersonal. Not I, not self. I can share a few stories, but first, an image. First, an image. There's one Tibetan teaching which says thoughts and emotions wander through the mind like clouds in the sky. No roots, no home. And I love that image. And then it's kind of amusing just to imagine the clouds going by with roots coming down from them, attaching them to the earth. It's a ridiculous image. Right. And so clearly not the state of things. And yet that's what we're doing with these emotions. So an emotion or a thought, we are rooting them to the view of self. Right. And that's what is problematic. And when we see them for what they are, they're more like clouds in the sky. The emotions arise when the conditions are there for it to arise. Just like a cloud arises when the conditions are there for it, the conditions change, the cloud disperses or becomes otherwise. Exactly the same way with our emotions. But what keeps us from seeing that ephemeral, we could say empty nature of the emotion is because of our identification with them, we're rooting them in this view of self. And our practice is to, I don't know if we want to say, cut the root or not be identified with them.

Joseph Goldstein (49:02)

Can you say more about what identification is?

Unknown (49:07)

Yeah. So just from my own experience, so this Goes back quite a few years. Early on in my practice, the emotion that was most difficult for me, the afflictive emotion that I was working with a lot over years and years and years, was fear. So of all the unpleasant emotions that can come for me, that was the one that was most deeply conditioned. And I'm working with it in a lot of different ways over years of my practice. And there were times when it was just so intense, Particularly in the experience of intensive meditation. I would be sitting and afraid to stand up. I mean, it was completely irrational. There was nothing fearful about standing up. But that's what was going on in my mind. For two things. There are two aspects of what helped me free myself from rooting that fear in myself. One was, and this is one of the most important, I don't know if teachings or changes in perspective that can really help to free the mind. So at one point, I was doing walking meditation, and the fear was there, and it was strong. And I'm noting noticing fear, fear, fear, fear. But it still felt really locked in. And then something happened in my mind. Something shifted in my mind. And that shift was expressed in the thought, if this fear is here for the rest of my life, it's okay. So it's okay became my magic mantra about everything. It's okay to feel it. And what was so instructive about that was that I thought I had been mindful all along because I had recognized the fear. Yeah, fear, fear. I was feeling it and noting it and recognizing it, but always through the filter of aversion. I wanted to get rid of it.

Joseph Goldstein (51:32)

Which technically is not mindfulness.

Unknown (51:34)

Exactly.

Joseph Goldstein (51:35)

You're aware of it, but it's colored by your contraction around it.

Unknown (51:39)

Exactly. So just highlighting the difference between recognition and mindfulness, or recognition and awareness. These are two different things.

Joseph Goldstein (51:50)

So is it true to say that mindfulness contains equanimity or presupposes equanimity, or co arises with equanimity? Yeah.

Unknown (51:59)

And it was amazing when my mind had that shift. It's okay here. For the rest of my life, it's okay. What was amazing is that whole mass of fear that I'd been lodged and locked in in that moment just washed through. It's like it was released from the grip of attachment. And it's not to say that fear never arises again. It can still come up, but my relationship to it is completely different. Because from that experience, it's okay. It's okay. That's story number one. Story number two. I'm teaching in Texas with my colleague Sharon Salzberg. We're going for a walk after lunch. And I'm going on and on. And I think this was before the experience I just described. I'm going on and on. Oh, I have all this fear, and it's so deeply conditioned. I'm going to need 30 years of therapy to unwind this. And I was going on. I was building a whole superstructure of self on top of this emotion. I'm such a fearful person. Da da da da da. And Sharon just turned to me and said, joseph, it's just a mind state. And, you know, when the conditions are right, somebody can just say a few words. Oh, yeah, yeah. It's just the mind. What are you. What are you creating this whole big self story about it? And so that's another by the acceptance and then seeing the impersonal, selfless nature. It's just like a. It's just like a summer thundercloud. It's there and it's intense and then it passes away. So our relationship to kind of the emotional suffering that you described, there is every potential to free ourselves from the contraction of them. However, some is very deeply, deeply conditioned from a lot of different causes for those emotions that are not just kind of more typical ones passing through, but the deeply conditioned patterns. First, it may take some time, as it did with me, for fear. I was working with this for years until that kind of change of understanding. But I think also, particularly people who've had traumatic background, so this. There's some deep emotional conditioning, and it may take different modalities to help loosen it up. Very often just the therapeutic approach is really valuable, and sometimes a meditative approach and sometimes a combination. So it's not to think that there's one way that is going to serve in all situations. So it's good to just have an open mind to see, okay, what will be most helpful.

Joseph Goldstein (55:05)

But is that actually the claim. Would it be true to say that real mindfulness is always the right answer psychologically? Or are you saying that there are people for whom, given their conditioning, given the sources of their suffering, even real mindfulness is not an appropriate remedy? You see what I'm getting at? Some people. You might be saying that some people, try as they might, won't be able to use the tool of mindfulness because of the nature of their suffering, they have to do something else. But are you saying that actually in many cases, mindfulness is just not good enough?

Unknown (55:48)

No, I'm saying that depending on the intensity and the level of the conditioning.

Joseph Goldstein (55:55)

People'S capacity to even get near mindfulness.

Unknown (56:00)

Yeah, to be really mindful in the way that we've been describing, without attachment, without aversion, without identification.

Joseph Goldstein (56:07)

It's asking too much.

Unknown (56:09)

Yeah, it may not just at that time, the capacity might not be there. And very often it's necessary to go into the content to try to, okay, well what are the causes, what's the history? And, and that begins to loosen things up enough so that maybe one could then apply mindfulness directly to the emotion.

Joseph Goldstein (56:30)

The phrase to not be identified with thought, I think for many people is very hard to parse. And many people also assume that the goal is to be without thought. So it'd be worth getting to that.

Sam Harris (56:43)

Territory somehow we might naturally get there through. Right view.

Joseph Goldstein (56:46)

Yeah, yeah.

Sam Harris (56:48)

I think it's actually been really helpful to kind of set the table in this way. And I know we'll, we want to work through the, the list, the Eightfold path, but at least one last question for me if, if, if I may. You talked a lot about the potential for freedom, the mind with no edges. And maybe I'm alone in this, but I, I think some non trivial percentage of listeners are going to ask the question, well, how far can I get? You know, how many lifetimes does this take? How much meditation do I need to do in order to get a taste of the anesthesia free surgery, et cetera, et cetera. So what say you?

Unknown (57:28)

Well, so I do have a new favorite definition of enlightenment which is lightening up. The whole process is about lightening up, which I think in a colloquial sense we all have a sense of. It's not taking ourselves so seriously and we just are with things in a simpler and easier way that our minds start to decondition some of the complicated and suffering causes responses to things. So I'll give you another very mundane example. The fruit of the practice of integrating the wisdom of impermanence really into how we're living our lives. So it's just a totally normal, ordinary situation with a bunch of friends. And it goes back to actually what you was asking Sam about preferences. And do you have preferences? You don't have preferences. And this happens to me a lot. Can be with a group of friends planning to go out to dinner. Where do you want to go? I want Thai, I want Chinese, I want this, I want that. And for the most part, and even though I like everyone else has preferences, but for the most part in that kind of discussion, it really doesn't matter to me at all because I know from experience that 10 minutes, 5 minutes after the meal is done, it will not have made the slightest bit of difference. And so having just experienced that over and over again, why get into a fight? And I'm exaggerating a little bit, but why get into a fight over which restaurant we go to? So, again, that's a very trivial example, but one could extrapolate that. And so the lightening up aspect of becoming enlightened is a process that I think starts wherever we are. And everybody who really undertakes the practice in a somewhat consistent way, I think, will experience this sense of lightning lightening up, which is very. It's wonderful, you know, when we don't take ourselves so seriously. And so there's a lot. There's a lot freer energy, kind of we're dancing with things more than fighting with things or struggling with things. So this is a very kind of, we could say, secular or mundane understanding of the process, you know, and then, of course, it goes into many more profound aspects of what awakening means. But I think it gives an indication of what's possible for everybody. We're all moving along on this trajectory, and we're all somewhere along the path if we're practicing. Yes. And for almost all of us, there's more to do.

Sam Harris (60:44)

You've known this guy for decades.

Joseph Goldstein (60:47)

He still cares what restaurant we go to.

Sam Harris (60:50)

I was thinking that same thing.

Joseph Goldstein (60:52)

I don't remember getting my free pick of cuisine every time I'm with Joseph.

Sam Harris (60:57)

Is he lighter, though, than when he was 46?

Joseph Goldstein (61:02)

That's hard to say. I don't know. I mean, he was pretty light at 46. Otherwise I wouldn't have been hanging out with him.

Unknown (61:08)

I can definitely answer the question. Much more so, just as an example, which probably so, as you mentioned, one of you mentioned recently turned 80 and so IMs on meditations and put on a kind of an online 80s celebration. And somebody produced it, and it was really a lovely event. The woman who produced it, Lily Cushman, she dug up an old video of me teaching at Naropa in 1974. So I had just come back from India, so I was a new teacher and I was leading.

Joseph Goldstein (61:47)

Very big difference in new and old Joseph teaching. Yeah.

Unknown (61:50)

Yes. I mean, in that video, I mean, the teaching was the same, but I was so serious. And so, you know, it's like there was not much.

Joseph Goldstein (62:03)

Practically Burmese.

Unknown (62:04)

Yeah. Not much lightness there. But there was a trajectory from that to how I feel now. And to me, it's really noticeable in how I feel. I feel a lot lighter and more relaxed in teaching. And in most things. So I think it really is possible even just on that level.

Joseph Goldstein (62:27)

But is that actually the right way to measure things? I mean, don't. So again, coming back to the goal and what you imagine to be the final fruition of practice, would you expect every Arhant or every Buddha to show up with the same kind of light hearted attitude or. Because again, obvious examples. I mean someone like Mahasi Sayadow who, whether he was an Arhant or not, was obviously an exemplar of taking the practice quite some ways. And I mean some of this could have been cultural, some of this could have been how he decided to behave in the role as a teacher. But I never met him obviously I only met his student Upandita. But there was a very kind of formal, serious. I mean I don't even think they smiled very much. I saw Upundita smile but it's like even smiling was kind of taboo in the role of a teacher. I think they put their fans up to hide their smiles. But I don't know whether Mahasi ever smiled. But he was not the jolly teacher that his Holiness the Dalai Lama is. Right. So how much are you expecting a person's personality to change based on stabilizing this?

Unknown (63:38)

Obviously people are going to manifest very differently because of just their innate personalities. And just with reference, for example, to Mahasi Sayadow, what I've heard is certainly in his public Persona he was pretty, pretty serious, which is very Burmese culture for monastics to present in that way. But what I heard was that when he was just in the equivalent of the back room.

Joseph Goldstein (64:09)

He's a wild man.

Unknown (64:10)

Well, I wouldn't say wild man, but that another whole side of him came out. So it's hard to judge in what you're asking about without seeing somebody in the fullness of their situations. But I think the deeper part is not so much the personality expression, but this is more subtle and sometimes hard to assess. But really how empty of self someone is. And to some extent we really can feel it. I mean we know when even the English expression very full of themselves, you know, when somebody is very full of themselves, it's apparent Mahasi Saydao was one of the emptiest of self beings that I've ever met. So that's really the deeper meaning of that, of lightening up. Lightening up in that way is the more profound aspect. It's kind of the personality. For me it was very noticeable. That more superficial level was very apparent to me that that's what happened along with the deeper letting go of selfing to whatever extent.

Joseph Goldstein (65:32)

Actually, I think it's an important point of confusion because just as consumers of the teachings, I think people can be misled by the personal characteristics of teacher. There are people who have lots of charisma, who are very comfortable in front of audiences, they're very energetic, they're super positive, they've got a very high baseline level of happiness and I won't name any names, but there are people who check all those boxes. But there's an 800 pound gorilla of an ego right at the center of it that is palpable, but it's not palpable in the sense of they seem to be suffering or they seem to be neurotic, at least not when they're functioning well. They can be very again, charismatic and outward focused. You know, just, they can be performing impeccably and yet it's not the same thing as absence of self. But you could point to that person and say that person's very light, they're laughing, they're, they're smiling, they're, they're very entertaining, they're very attractive of people's attention. You know, they could be great performers. I mean they could be great stand up comedians or just performers in all kinds of modes. And yet there's a kind of self actualization that has nothing to do with.

Unknown (66:47)

What we're talking about.

Joseph Goldstein (66:48)

Right? But I think people might think that if I could only untie the knot of self through meditation, I would be like Jamie Foxx, right? Like I like just free to dance and sing.

Unknown (67:03)

I think one of the. I don't think this is really a.

Joseph Goldstein (67:07)

I don't think it's a common misunderstanding that you're somehow optimizing the personality through this practice.

Unknown (67:14)

I don't think it's really a critical point. But now I will make a critical point.

Joseph Goldstein (67:22)

Thank you for getting us back on track.

Unknown (67:27)

I think this is one of the really beautiful things about practicing with different teachers. Because when you practice with different who you really respect and you know, feel have a lot of wisdom and you see them manifesting through many different personalities. That is a great teaching is that in that there is no one way to be. It's not that there's one Persona that is going to manifest as we become more, as we become freer or more awake.

Joseph Goldstein (67:58)

But what have you made of the examples of teachers who can seem to be angry? Right. So like one way of describing the path is to get rid of disturbing emotion like anger. Surely you've seen some great Teachers seem to get annoyed or angry or frustrated or something. And so do you just view that as synonymous with them not being done? Or is there a way of actually displaying in the same way that you could reach for the mango as opposed to the papaya at a buffet? And that's not tantamount to unenlightened craving. That's just a conditioned preference that need not mean anything. Could you see someone? I mean, I remember. So, for instance, we were with Tuk, Oregon, in Nepal, and we had bought a bunch of Buddha statues and bells and other artifacts for him to bless. And so. But he was keenly interested in where we bought this stuff and how much we paid for it. And when he heard what one thing cost, I think it was a bell or he just. He looked horrified. It's like tourists had just been shamefully taken advantage of and paid 10 times too much for something. And he was clearly, by outward appearances, he seemed to be annoyed or something. Now, if you sample your impression of what it's like to be him at that moment, is it just, okay, he's lost in thought in exactly the same way that any ordinary person is lost in thought and he's contracted. Or can that variation show up in even a totally free mind? I mean, what are you expecting again, you think this is. This is not. You don't think a person's conception of the goal is important?

Unknown (69:42)

I think in the example you're giving, you would really have to know what was in his mind. And there is this expression in Tibetan, wrathful compassion, where people manifest in what could be called a wrathful way. But actually the motivation and the energy is one of compassion. And one could say compassion to help wake people up or where they see that as the skillful means in that particular situation. And it's very hard to judge. Like in the example you gave, I don't know what was in his mind. You know, as you were telling the story, I interpreted. But of course, this was just my projection of. I could well imagine going there with all tchotchkas, Buddha tchotchkas, and his reacting with disbelief that anybody could be so stupid.

Joseph Goldstein (70:48)

That was not the. They're very indulgent of that kind of thing.

Unknown (70:52)

No, I'm just saying that there could be just a whole range of what was in his mind until.

Joseph Goldstein (70:59)

Okay, but you do judge. I mean, this is, first of all, the wrathful wisdom. And every variant of that, while possibly psychologically true, that's a get out of jail free card for every guru who's ever exploited the role of guru. So we know. It's hard to actually know that you found that when you seem to have found that. And when the effects are obviously not good, you do judge. When you hear that Sogil Rinpoche is just beating people up, you basically wash your hands of him as an example of what the dharma is supposed to be. Right? There's a line that somebody crosses. And in the literature, we accept these stories that we would never accept in real life. The disciple holds up his finger and who is it? Bodhidharma or who cut off some Zen teacher? Right. So it's like, yeah, if you're cutting off the fingers of your students, you're not going to survive long in the current dharma circles, and for good reason. But it is thought that everything potentially could be skillful means.

Unknown (72:09)

Yeah, but I think that's a misunderstanding, a misconception, and it's one of the reasons why in most Buddhist traditions, although there's some variation of how it's held or how it's expressed, but how the foundation, the foundation of the whole journey is ethical behavior, the ethics of non harming. And to me, that's why that foundation is so important, because people and people in teaching roles can so easily rationalize behavior as if they have in some belief. Well, I've had this realization or I've had this level of enlightenment or whatever, so that everything I do, therefore is expressive of that. That's the get out of jail free card. But that is dissociated and it's dangerous. And we've seen lots of examples in spiritual scenes where people in teaching roles end up sometimes doing really unskillful, harmful things.

Joseph Goldstein (73:17)

And frankly, it feels like we've seen that more in traditions that have this teaching around crazy wisdom or wrathful compassion. I mean, like, we see less of it, I think, in the Theravada. I'm sure it exists.

Unknown (73:31)

Yeah. Yeah. Well, that's also because, like, in this tradition, there is a lot of emphasis on the teaching of ethics, of non harming. I mean, and in different traditions. I think it's there in all the traditions, but in some, it's really emphasized more than in others, you know, and from my perspective, I think that's why it's really important to emphasize it, because it provides a place of safety. You know, in fact, one of the gifts of undertaking following the basic precepts of non harming. And I love this expression, it talks about when we are committed to these precepts of ethical behavior, of non harming behavior, we are giving the gift of fearlessness to everyone we meet because we're saying with our behavior, you need not fear me, I'm not going to harm you. And the precepts are basic. It's not like we have to go off and become saints in order to follow the precepts. They're pretty basic ways of behaving. But sometimes if those teachings are not emphasized, teachers can go astray. Even teachers who may have some level of realization but then misinterpret the extent of it and then think, oh, well, I've had this realization and everything I do is enlightened behavior. That's a real danger. And it has happened. We've seen it.

Joseph Goldstein (75:08)

Yeah, it's a good segue to the Eightfold path.

Sam Harris (75:10)

Yeah, I was going to say. So should we start marching our way through this list?

Joseph Goldstein (75:15)

Yeah.

Dan Harris (75:19)

Coming up. Joseph and Sam talk about generosity, the importance of faith. And in this context, faith has a little bit of a different meaning. The wisdom of don't know mind and various kinds of right view. The show is sponsored by Liquid iv. Love looks different for everybody, especially when it comes to all the ways you treat and celebrate yourself. Gift yourself the everyday indulgence of extraordinary hydration from Liquid IV powered by Live Hydro Science. Visit LiquidIV.com and fall in love with flavors like the zesty new hydration multiplier, Sugar free Raspberry Lemonade and use Code happier to save 20% off your first order. I've been using this stuff myself. I go to workouts on many Saturday and Sunday mornings with my friend Strauss at his house and afterwards I will open up a container of water and pour in some Liquid iv. It's nice and neat and it tastes terrific and it really does help restore my energy after after I've just worked my tail off. It's super easy and convenient to tear and pour and enjoy. I personally like the lemon flavored one, but you don't even have to use it just after you're working out. You can use it during late nights or when you're traveling, whenever you need just a little extra boost. Break the mold and own your own ritual. Just one stick and 16 ounces of water hydrates better than water alone. Powered by Live Hydro Science TM and Optimization. Optimized ratio of electrolytes, essential vitamins and clinically tested nutrients that turn ordinary water into extraordinary hydration. Three times the electrolytes of the leading sports drink. Eight essential vitamins and nutrients always non gmo, vegan, gluten free, dairy free and soy free. Treat yourself to extraordinary hydration from Liquid IV. Get 20 off your first order of Liquid IV when you go to LiquidIV.com and use the code CODEHAPPIER at checkout. That's 20% off your first order with the code happier@liquidiv.com hey prime members, are you tired of ads interfering with your favorite podcasts? Good news. With Amazon Music, you have access to the largest catalog of ad free top podcasts included with your prime membership. To start listening, download the Amazon Music app for free or go to Amazon.com ad freepodcasts that's Amazon.com ad freeppodcasts to catch up on the latest episodes without the ads.

Sam Harris (77:50)

So the first entry on the list of eight is Right View. We talked about it a little bit, but let's, let's go deeper. What does it mean technically Right View?

Unknown (78:02)

So one kind of general way I think of understanding in the most general way, Right view sets the direction of our path, right? So it's like having a right view of the path and the goal that sets a direction. So if we're on a journey and we know the right direction to get where we want to go, then if we keep walking on that path, we will inevitably get there because we're going in the right direction. If we're going in the wrong direction, we can be making all kinds of efforts in our practice, but it's not going to get us where we want to go. And so that's why the Buddha said that and he started the Eightfold Path with Right view and he said sees nothing so conducive to the well being of people as right view and nothing as detrimental to the well being of beings with wrong view. Because right view keeps us going on the direction of awakening, of freedom, of liberation, whatever word we want to use, Wrong view takes us away from that. So the setting of the direction is one way of understanding it, a way of taking a deeper dive into the meaning of right view and what it means to be setting the direction and how that manifests in our lives. There are two levels of it and this is pretty interesting I think, because it shows the comprehensive nature of the Buddhist teachings and how it touches so many different aspects of our lives. So the first level of Right view is called sometimes mundane right view or worldly right view. And it has to do with the right view for developing greater ease and happiness in our lives. Not necessarily have to do with awakening or liberation, but just how do we live wisely in a way that reduces suffering, creates more ease, and basically aligns us or puts us in harmony with the way things are, rather than being out of sync with the truth of things. So there are a few elements of mundane right view, and they all circle around one crucial aspect of the Buddhist teaching, and that is the understanding that our actions have consequences. And in traditional Buddhist terms, this is talked about as the law of karma. You know, that all of our volitional actions will bear fruit at some point or another, depending on the motivation associated with the action. So this is just central to the Buddha's teaching. So he said, when we act motivated by greed or motivated by aversion, hatred, motivated by delusion, that is like planting the karmic seed of some future unwanted experience. And likewise, when we act motivated by generosity or by love, by understanding, wisdom, that is planting the seed of some future desirable experiences. And this is such a powerful teaching in my mind, because when we understand it and explore it on deeper and deeper levels, it gives us a lot of agency in our lives because we're all conditioned in a lot of different ways. We have naturally a lot of wholesome, skillful motivations in our mind, but not completely. We have a lot of unskillful and unwholesome motivations. I think mostly in the moment of taking an action or performing an action. For many people, we are not considering the karmic consequences of the act. We're just carried along in the busyness of what we're doing and in the reactivity of what's going on. And we just act without necessarily really taking the time, the few moments to look into our motivation. Okay, where is this act coming from? Where is it leading? And do I want to go where it's leading? So when we have this understanding of right view, mundane right view, that actions bring result, that karma is unfolding lawfully, that can align us on a path of happiness, we can start doing those things which will bring desirable, karmic results in our lives. So it's a powerful teaching. Now, here's where we may be getting into a little of the more mysterious aspects of the teachings. First, we can get a very pretty clear sense of how Karma unfolds just based on our own experience. And there are so many simple examples of this. Generally, when we are loving and basically have goodwill towards people, how do we find people relating to us? Generally, they like to be with us. How do people respond if we're full of anger and, you know, hatred and judgment, how do people relate? Probably not so friendly. There is a karmic result. In this very simple, mundane way, there's an effect of our actions. So we Want to pay attention to that now in the full scope of the Buddha's teachings?

Joseph Goldstein (84:05)

Actually, before you go to the full scope, you could also just add that whether or not we're getting immediate feedback from the world, the difference in intentions feels a certain way at the level of our own minds. It just feels much better to be loving than to be angry and hateful and patient.

Unknown (84:21)

Absolutely.

Sam Harris (84:21)

Yeah. I wrote a chapter in a book once called the Self Interested Case for Not being a Dick.

Joseph Goldstein (84:26)

Right.

Sam Harris (84:26)

And I mean, I just see that, I see that so often in my own life that whatever the external results are, the internal results are really powerful.

Unknown (84:38)

Yeah, yeah, good point, guys.

Joseph Goldstein (84:41)

Okay, back to you.

Sam Harris (84:44)

Now you're going to launch into the stuff that will make Sam's head explode.

Joseph Goldstein (84:48)

That's all right. I'll be very mindful of my.

Dan Harris (84:51)

Okay.

Unknown (84:51)

But before I do it, there were a couple of other points mentioned in Mundane Right View, I just want to put in before. One is, and this is right out of the text, but it's all related to karma, emphasizing the value of generosity as a behavior to cultivate, not only because it feels good in the moment, but it has very good karmic consequences. And so there's one little exercise I do. I really took that seriously when I understood that, yeah, this is part of Right View, I really started making generosity a practice, not just, yeah, that's a good thing to do and wait for it to happen. So the practice I've done, which I really has been transforming in a certain way, and I like to recommend it to people because it's been so uplifting for me, is that when I have a thought to give, I just practice doing it. I don't second guess myself. I don't. Should I, shouldn't I? Is that too much or whatever. If the thought comes, do it. And it's been amazing. So I'm not in this particular practice. And there are many ways to practice generosity in this particular practice. I'm not looking for situations. It's just I'm responding to my own impulse. When the impulse arise in my mind, okay, do it. And it's been amazing. And the range of what the impulses are huge. Sometimes it's a really small thing, just some gesture of friendliness or really simple thing. Sometimes the thought maybe to give something really big way out of what even would be conventionally, people, are you crazy? So there's the whole range of the kind of impulses. And I just found I've never regretted it and it always brings joy. So I just put this out as one example of a practical way of cultivating that mindset, that it can be a practice. Okay, so generosity is included in the description of mundane. Right. View second aspect, which this one can get complex. The Buddha emphasized the karmic responsibility we have to our parents, right? And so the classic image that's used, the Buddha said we could carry our parents around on our shoulders for our entire lifetime and not repay the debt of them having brought us into this world. Okay, so that's a pretty powerful exhortation. I don't know how it is in other cultures, but certainly in the west, sometimes relationships with one's parents can be very complex or fraught in one way or another. So I realize there's a lot of complexity to this, but I think it's good to keep in mind as something to strive for, even if the relationship is difficult or challenging, just to hold it in some way of recognizing that there is a karmic connection and in whatever way we can to try to establish a wholesome, skillful relationship to our parents. And sometimes I would say mostly it's possible, but there are some situations where, for this life anyway, it doesn't seem to be possible. But I just want to tell one story from Teach at Teaching. Every year, as you know, we teach a three month retreat at IMS and we've been doing it now for almost 50 years. So there was one meditator who came to many, many, many three month courses. I don't know how many, but a lot, 10, 12, 15. Every year they would be coming. And the core psychological issue for this person was this incredible conflict with her mother. And so a lot of the meditation, year after year after year, come in for the meditation interviews and it would be around that issue. And it seemed so stuck. It's just every year for years, and these are three month retreats and other things were happening, but this remained a core knot. And then it was amazing, one year she came and somehow the whole knot had begun to release and she reestablished the connection with her mother and opened up a channel of communication. And to me it was really inspiring to see that even when something is so deeply conditioned or knotted, just with patience and perseverance, even these deep knots can begin to unwind. And my first teacher, Munindraji, said something which can be a huge help for people on the path and it was a real help for me. And this story illustrates it. He said, on the spiritual path, time is not a factor, but we, especially in the west, are so we're in such a Hurry, we want results now. But this path is not like that. It's. It takes time and time is not a factor if we're doing the practice. And this is where right view, setting the right direction, if we're on the path going in the right direction in whatever method we use it. But if right view has set the direction, then time is not a factor. We just keep walking and the path will unfold.

Sam Harris (91:18)

Didn't Munindra also say the thought of your mother is not your mother?

Unknown (91:25)

He did, and sometimes that works. It didn't work for this particular person until way down the road because the reactivity was just so strong to begin with. Okay, so there's the generosity, there's relationship to one's parents, the part of extending this scope of right view, mundane right view. The Buddha talked about karma not only playing out within this lifetime, but, but playing out over many lifetimes. So of course this has to do with the whole idea of rebirth in different planes of existence, which for most people is outside the realm of their personal experience. And in the west, it's not even part of our. I'm not sure if I'm going to be using this word correctly. It's not part of our zeitgeist. We have a very. The way we understand things generally in this society. Generally, not completely, but it's basically a scientific paradigm of how we understand the world. Rebirth doesn't really fit into that. And so quite naturally people either skeptical or just disbelieve it or, oh, this is just, you know, some superstition from 2,600 years ago. So there's a lot of, at best, skepticism about this whole idea of rebirth.

Joseph Goldstein (92:54)

Also a lot of people come from an alternate religious paradigm which is just as spooky, but it's different. Right, right. You know, there is, there's an after death condition. Yeah, but there's no. But rebirth is not part of the story. So it's, you know, that serves as a counterpoint. I mean, the people who get, who leave that behind them and move into a proper secular, physicalist worldview, then see this Eastern variant on offer and why would I adopt that one, having left the God of Abraham?

Unknown (93:25)

Yeah, no, that's all part of it. And why this particular aspect of the teachings is often not easily either understood or believed or. And for myself, I certainly didn't begin this with any belief. I didn't know anything about Buddhism, I didn't know anything about rebirth or karma or. I studied Western philosophy in college and that was my background. But over the many Years of practice, I can track the trajectory of how I slowly became more open to considering it. And there's an expression, a phrase, and I think it was by the poet Coleridge. He used the expression the willing suspension of disbelief, because we can be attached to our disbeliefs as well as attached to our beliefs. And so with something like Rebirth, I think for many people, the most honest answer would be, I don't know. I don't know. It's not in my experience. But in the I don't know, that's very different than saying it's not true. And this goes back to the connection to right view. To say it's not true is wrong view in the Buddhist context. To say I don't know is not wrong view. And I don't know is actually more accurate as a description of our current state unless one has had a definitive experience one way or the other. And so I think that's a very good way to hold many aspects of the teachings which are beyond our current level of understanding. It's to acknowledge that, okay. And for me, part of what led me to be open to these. There were many things, but one is, well, so much of what the Buddha said, we can verify. I can see. Come and see. And he says, don't believe. Check it out. And so much of what he said checked out. That really seems true. That works. I'm suffering less. And so for me, it tended well. He was right about so much. There's just the possibility he might be right about this too. So, again, it's not even going to belief in it, but to be open to the possibility.

Sam Harris (96:00)

I know a guy, he wrote a book called the End of Faith. I'm very curious to hear what he has to say about all of this.

Joseph Goldstein (96:08)

Again, I think I am genuinely agnostic about this, which is the I don't know state, but I think I detect in you more belief than mere. This is not truly in the shape of a mere question mark for you. I mean, for me, I honestly would not. I mean, given certain experiences I've had in meditation and on psychedelics, and given the logic you just gave of these esoteric teachings, I've been right about so much as counterintuitive, the fact that they are traditionally framed with this metaphysical worldview, maybe that gives some credence to the whole picture as opposed to the taking it a la carte. But so for me, it really is. I just recognize. I don't know, like, I actually, you know, it's the absence that's a good step. Yeah. But I believe.

Sam Harris (96:56)

Here we go.

Joseph Goldstein (96:56)

With all your lightheartedness, where you're. You're busy not picking restaurants, you have moved further in the direction of a positive commitment to it being true.

Unknown (97:07)

Psychologically. The way I describe my own sense of it is, is that I'm inclined to believe, but always with the addendum and I don't know. So I am inclined to believe for a whole variety of reasons, some of which we talked about. So that gives some energy to the inclination. But I can rest pretty easily, do rest easily in acknowledging that I don't know. And. And I think that that for me, is a really skillful way to hold it.

Joseph Goldstein (97:43)

Well, two questions. Do you think anything important hinges upon having a positive belief in it or something more than I don't know. And do the teachings say that something important hinges upon accepting these statements about the bigger picture to be true?

Unknown (98:02)

I think that the inclination to incline to it, even if one doesn't know.

Joseph Goldstein (98:09)

To act as if it's true, it's almost like Pascal's Wager in some sense.

Unknown (98:14)

It is like that. In my experience, it tremendously supercharges the practice.

Joseph Goldstein (98:21)

You're more motivated to practice.

Unknown (98:23)

Yeah, because the consequences are huge. If it is true, the consequences are huge because then it's realizing, yeah, that as karma unfolds and we'll be experiencing the fruit of our skillful and unskillful actions, it's not that it just ends with this life, that within this other framework, it extends over countless lifetimes. And so then the import of our actions takes on much greater significance, even though it's significant even within this one lifetime. But if you consider, oh, this action may have ramifications for many lifetimes, maybe I should take care with my actions. You know, this is important. It's significant. So, yeah, however you want to express it, like considering the possibility or inclining to believe or however one frames it with the recognition that one still doesn't know. I think for me, has really. It's just made the practice.

Joseph Goldstein (99:28)

So you're acting as if it's true. You've decided to act as if it's true.

Unknown (99:33)

Yeah, and to my mind, with very good consequences. And I don't see any discernible downside to it, you know, because it's just. It's like a reinforcement for doing what's skillful and for doing what's wholesome and for what brings happiness. So Munindraji, he had this gray line. So he was talking more, you know, future lives and other planes of existence, you know, the lower realms and the higher realms and the heaven realms. And he loved talking about the heaven realms. He would just go on and on and I loved hearing about them. A lot of people were very skeptical, but I was in that space. That sounds nice. But he would always end these little talks. You don't have to believe this in order to awaken, in order to become enlightened. You don't have to believe it. It's true, but you don't have to believe it. So that was always his last comment. So all of this is mundane Right View because it's the right view of how to live with greater ease and greater happiness in our lives.

Dan Harris (100:48)

Coming up, Joseph and Sam talk more about Right View and some practical tips.

Sam Harris (100:53)

For cultivating Right View.

Unknown (101:01)

The second part of Right View is, could be called supermundane Right View or the Right view of liberation. And this right view has to do with the essential aspects of the Buddhist teachings formulated in the Four Noble Truths, the Eightfold Path. So Right View is really learning about and experiencing to whatever level we can the truth of Dukkha, the inevitability of unwanted experiences. Right. The underlying cause of this round of rebirths is craving. Craving is the desire that keeps the whole machine going. And then the end of craving is the release. So I want to give an example of how we can move this from some abstract Buddhist philosophy to how to some extent we can experience it right in our own lives. For a long time in my practice, being familiar with the Four Noble Truths and that liberation is the end of craving, clinging, grasping, in my mind, it was always okay, I'm practicing, and someday, some years, somewhere down the road, I'll come to the end of craving. But it didn't seem very immediate to me. There was still plenty of craving that I could see in my mind. And then at a certain point, it was so interesting. I was just sitting, I was on retreat and I realized I don't have to wait till the final end of all craving. I can practice non craving in the moment and really see the effect of it. And so one way of doing that, and you know, I really suggest this to people in their practice. So suppose you're sitting and then some craving, some desire comes up in the mind. And it could be anything. It could be craving for food or a sexual fantasy or, I don't know, some ambition one has, some craving that's going on. So if it occurs to one to just be mindful of that mind state of wanting which we're in the middle of at that time, we can feel ourselves wanting whatever it is. And then because of the truth of things always becoming otherwise, at some point the wanting is going to go away without. We don't have to do anything to make it go away. If we're just hanging out with it and watching, it's there, there, wanting, wanting, wanting. And at a certain point it's going to disappear right in that moment. It can be so illuminating of the difference in the quality of the mind, of the wanting mind, and the mind that's free of wanting in that transition right from moment to moment. And my experience and almost everybody who I've talked to about this, in the moment of the wanting disappearing, it feels like it's being let out of the grip of something. It feels that sense of release, that sense of ease, that sense of peace, that sense. So it can be in a very ordinary kind of wanting, you know, so it doesn't have to be some big mystical experience. It's just watching our minds when it's filled with that kind of craving or wanting, what it feels like, the suffering of it and then the release from it. And so we can really get a sense of this more super mundane right view, the understanding of the four noble truths, that the end of craving leads to freedom, leads to peace, to greater ease. So I think that understanding, even if it's not completed, craving will come back again. But we have had a taste genuinely in our own experience. So it's not just some abstract philosophic statement that we need to believe.

Sam Harris (105:06)

Just to sum this up, the mundane right view is understanding that actions have results. What leads to what? Super mundane review right view is to understand that awakening or liberation is possible and the root of all of, of the opposite, the root of suffering is craving. My zone of accuracy.

Unknown (105:31)

Yeah, no, that's right. There's one other aspect that's included in right view which is related to this, but it's just highlighting one particular aspect and that is. And there's some kind of little bit of technical language, Buddhist language, that does need a little unpacking. What you asked about before, Sam, it's called freeing oneself from sometimes it's called identity view or personality view. And it really has to do with the experience of selflessness or non self. And so you asked before about, okay, well what does it mean not to be identified with a thought? So there are different ways we can explore this and some of them are really, to my mind, really interesting. So one of the simplest ways, but doesn't necessarily get right to the heart of it. But it's the beginning of getting to the heart of it is just seeing both that we don't invite our thoughts to come. It's not like we're saying, okay, I'm going to think this now, although you.

Sam Harris (106:40)

Can invite, no, we can't.

Unknown (106:41)

We can, but most of the thoughts that are going through our mind are uninvited. And so just even seeing that begins, oh, where did these come from? And sometimes I'll suggest to people on retreat, why don't you just treat each thought as if it's coming from the person next to you? Just as a way of maybe getting a flavor of not being identified with them as one's own, and so seeing the impermanence of them in that way. But even more interesting to me, and I often suggest people do this in their practice, especially when there are a lot of thoughts arising in the mind as the thoughts are there to ask the question, what is a thought? Not what is the thought saying, which is what we usually do. What's a thought? Oh. And then people would tell the content, the story of it. This is different. This is. I don't know if this is the right word. It's more phenomenological. What is a thought as a phenomenon? And what I find incredibly amazing is that when we look directly at it as we're having a thought, but with that question, there's almost nothing there. It's little more than nothing. It's so ephemeral, so empty of any substance. But what's so amazing is that when we don't see the thought in that way, they have such tremendous power in our lives. I call them the little dictators of the mind. Thoughts go here, go there, do this, do that, get married, get divorced, whatever. It's like our thoughts are driving us. And yet when we look to see what a thought actually is, it's little more than nothing. So that to me is so extraordinary to see that. And seeing that empty nature of thought really begins to give us the experience of its selfless nature, because there's hardly anything there. So that's another way of beginning to understand what being identified with the thought is, which means really being identified with the content. And not being identified with is when we're not concerned with the content, but seeing the very nature of thought. Yeah.

Sam Harris (109:19)

I mean, there's so much freedom on the other side of that. You're cutting the strings of a malevolent puppeteer.

Unknown (109:24)

Yeah.

Sam Harris (109:25)

That being said, just a categorization question is what you're talking about here. This non identification with thoughts is that Part of mundane right view or super mundane right view?

Unknown (109:35)

No, that would be more in the super mundane. Because another part of this more super mundane or, I don't know, we might call it liberative right view, one other aspect beside the Four Noble Truths, but contained within that are the three characteristics of impermanence, dukkha, and selflessness. And so to the degree that we're seeing the non self aspect of phenomena, the impersonality of them, so it becomes on this level of right view, and it's tremendously freeing, as one teacher expressed it, no self, no problem. You know, big self, big problem. So right view is just, it's foundational and just one little kind of footnote to all this. In the Eightfold Path, as you know, every one of the steps is the prefix is right, right view, right thought, right speech, right action, and so forth. So what the right refers to in each of the other steps, like right mindfulness. And people might ask, well, what's wrong mindfulness? If mindfulness means relating in the skillful way? Well, the right in terms of the steps of the Eightfold Path always refers to is that particular step in alignment with right view. If it's in alignment with right view, then all the other steps are right. But you could have concentration, for example, not in alignment with right view, or effort not in alignment. So then it's not right effort or right concentration. I didn't understand that for a long time, that that's what the right actually referred to. So the right view becomes the foundation for then really understanding more completely what each of the remaining steps on the path are about.

Sam Harris (111:40)

And I just want to go back to mundane and super mundane. I apologize for continuing to beat this dead horse, but I want to make sure that I get it. And by extension, everybody listening. Mundane is really about, I mean, day to day, if I'm hearing you correctly.

Joseph Goldstein (111:57)

Also conditional, conventional. What are the actual ways of producing ordinary states of happiness?

Sam Harris (112:05)

Yes.

Joseph Goldstein (112:06)

What are the causes and conditions for good experiences?

Sam Harris (112:09)

And super mundane is about transcending all of that and waking up.

Unknown (112:15)

But there's one other. The way the Buddha described mundane right view, which, and I wish I could remember it precisely, but so this kind of a paraphrase, as best I can remember, but he describes right view associated with taints, associated with basically defilements of one kind or another. Because there could be mundane right view still associated with greed, with wanting. You know, in the Buddhist world, there's quite a lot of emphasis on making merit, which is kind of a colloquial way of Describing the law of karma, recognizing, yes, certain things bring good results. And that process is colloquially called making merit. And making merit in English. It has a lot of connotations that can be problematic. But one of the ways it was characterized is creating provisions for the journey. And I love that. It's like, yeah, we're doing those actions. We're all on this journey, this long journey towards enlightenment, Samsara. Do we want to be well provisioned on the journey or not? And that was the description of merit. But you can see that, yeah, that can come with taints with attachment. And that's why it's a mundane right view. It is right view because it will bring those good results. But there can still be a wanting in that. The supermundane right view cuts through the wanting, the craving. But to me, it was reassuring to read about right view with taints and right view without taints, because there was plenty of taints to be observed in even doing skillful acts, knowing, oh, this is going to have a good result.

Joseph Goldstein (114:30)

An act of generosity can be polluted by some attachment or some ulterior motive, but it's nevertheless better than no act of generosity.

Unknown (114:38)

Exactly, exactly. So that I think is good for people to know because sometimes they think, oh, unless their motivation is totally pure, then something's not worth doing. But this allows for every level of it. So description of right view really provides a great foundation. And for every other step on the path.

Joseph Goldstein (115:03)

Nice. Well, we got to. It feels like we got right view and we've got seven other folds of the path.

Sam Harris (115:11)

So I was just doing the math in my head. So two a day.

Joseph Goldstein (115:14)

Two a day leaves us with one more to do because we've only done one today.

Unknown (115:18)

Well, some will be faster. Faster than. Right view is very full and some of the others are really full. But this one has a lot in it.

Sam Harris (115:29)

For an 80 year old, your energy levels.

Unknown (115:31)

Yeah.

Sam Harris (115:32)

In this conversation seem fantastic.

Joseph Goldstein (115:34)

Yeah.

Unknown (115:35)

Where's the eight year old come from?

Dan Harris (115:37)

I said four and eight year olds.

Sam Harris (115:39)

Your energy.

Unknown (115:39)

Oh, 80.

Sam Harris (115:40)

Yeah.

Unknown (115:40)

I thought you said eight.

Joseph Goldstein (115:42)

Yeah. Or four and eight year old. Yeah. For an eight year old. You're terrible.

Sam Harris (115:46)

You are terrible.

Unknown (115:48)

Hypoglycemic for an 8 year old. I didn't. I didn't quite know how to interpret that. It is the magic of the Dharma. It really is like in teaching, I can be exhausted and then starts coming through and it's amazing. And then the collapse with the gin and tonic.

Joseph Goldstein (116:11)

You did hit upon what I still think is the most astounding quality of the mind, which is unexamined thoughts are everything and examined, they're basically nothing. Yeah, exactly like that.

Unknown (116:25)

Yeah.

Joseph Goldstein (116:25)

And there's almost no tradition in the west in philosophy or psychology or nothing of actual hard science that even acknowledges that fact. There's just like that. That fact has gone unnoticed by the West.

Unknown (116:41)

I've spoken at some conferences of basically therapist types and psychologists and so on. And when I talk about this, like, you know, to look at what is a thought, not what is the thought saying, which of course what the thought is saying is their whole world. For some few people, it really is like, whoa, you know, people have come reflected back to me. Boy, that's a whole different thing.

Joseph Goldstein (117:08)

It's everything. Absolutely.

Unknown (117:09)

It is everything.

Joseph Goldstein (117:10)

This is the profound asymmetry between west and east on this contemplative point. It's like most people in the west have never even thought about an alternative to just thinking about everything.

Unknown (117:24)

Exactly, exactly. We're in our stories. We are completely in our stories. As you know, there's this wonderful phrase in the Tibetan teachings how with this kind of awareness, thoughts self liberate. Yeah, that's just what it's like. The thought is there and it self liberates.

Joseph Goldstein (117:46)

There's also my favorite image from the Tibetan teachings about this is that the three stages of self liberation. The first is like writing on water. You know, it just vanishes the moment you do it. The second is the snake untying a knot. You know, the knotted snake untying itself. But the third is the image I actually like, which is thieves entering an empty house. That just shows you that recognize there's just no implication to their appearance.

Dan Harris (118:17)

Thanks again to Joseph and Sam. If you want to hear the rest of this excellent series on the Eightfold Path, as well as the guided meditations that go along with it, go to wakingup.com 10%. I put a link in the show notes. And just a reminder, if you buy a subscription via that URL, you'll get 30 days free. And you will be doing me and my team a solid because we will get a portion of any proceeds from the subscriptions that are generated through that link. And as I said earlier, if money's an issue, don't worry about it. You can go to the Waking up website and ask for a scholarship. That's the same policy I have over@danharris.com. if you can't afford it, we hook you up. And again, to be a little repetitive here, I really do think about Waking up as a great complement to my substack if you're looking for a community vibe, the ability to chat directly with me, the ability to listen to this podcast without ads, substack is your spot. If you're looking for more of a traditional meditation app experience, Waking up is awesome. As I said at the top, Sam has really brought together an amazing, amazing group of teachers over there, including Joseph. And don't forget that 30 part lecture series that you can listen to through wakingup.com 10% just before I go here, I want to thank everybody who worked so hard to make this show. Our producers are Tara Anderson, Caroline Keenan, and Eleanor Vasily. Our recording and engineering is handled by the great folks over at Pod People. Lauren Smith is our production manager, Marissa Schneiderman is our senior producer, DJ Cashmere is our Executive Executive producer, and Nick Thorburn of the band Highlands wrote our theme.