← 10% Happier with Dan Harris
10% Happier with Dan Harris
Is There Such a Thing as Healthy Shame and Embarrassment? | JoAnna Hardy
01:17:58
A Buddhist recipe for speaking, working, and living in a way that will make you happy. has practiced in multiple traditions since 1999. She is currently a meditation trainer at , a visiting teacher at , a visiting retreat teacher at , and about to...
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- [00:00]
Dan Harris
Few things feel better than knowing someone's looking out for you. That is the spirit behind the ATT guarantee. Staying connected matters. That's why AT&T has connectivity you can depend on, or they will proactively make it right. That's the AT&T guarantee, because connection should be dependable, especially in the moments that matter most. Terms and conditions apply. Visit att.comguarantee for details. @ and T connecting changes everything this is the 10% Happier podcast. I'm Dan Harris. Hello my fellow suffering beings. How we doing today? Many people get their backup when they hear the word ethics. I get it. The word brings to mind images of finger wagging hypocrites thundering from behind a pulpit. Ethical guidelines have too often been used to circumscribe the actions and options of the many and privilege the few. But Buddhism, in my view, is quite different in this regard. In Buddhism and ethics are not supposed to be about moralizing. They're supposed to be about making you happier. It's enlightened self interest. There's a term I like. I don't know who coined it. The bliss of blamelessness. If your mind isn't aflame ruminating upon all of the shabby ways in which you've treated other people, and if it's not spinning out trying to find ways to keep all of your lies straight, there's a lot more room for calm, quiet, creativity. All the good stuff. One of the greatest Western teachers on this subject of Buddhist ethics is, in my opinion, Joanna Hardy, who also happens to be a friend. One of the many things I love about Joanna is that she's totally open about her past transgressions and actually her current transgressions as well. She's not trying to pretend to be perfect, which makes her, I think, a more effective proponent of Buddhist ethics. She also has a pleasingly foul mouth. You're going to hear references to sex with melons in this conversation. Just a little bit more about Joanna. She has practiced in multiple traditions since 1999. She's a meditation trainer at Apple Fitness, plus a visiting retreat teacher at Insight Meditation Society, and much more. In this conversation we talk about sila, which is the Buddhist term for ethics. We cover concepts such as right livelihood, right speech. We talk about why we lie, the power of Buddhist tattoos, which I'm becoming increasingly convinced of. We talk about concepts hiri and otapa. Those are Pali terms. Pali is the language in which the teachings of the Buddha were written down. Hiri and ottapa basically mean healthy shame and healthy embarrassment. It's kind of provocative, the idea that there's a type of shame that might be healthy. And we talk about much more. There's a custom guided meditation that comes with today's episode. It's designed to help you put SILA into practice in your daily life. It's not about following some arbitrary set of rules or being perfect. It's about tuning into what our Teacher of the month 7A Selassie calls your inner guidance system. Sign up@danharris.com if you want to get that meditation from 7A and all the other guided meditations that we're now producing to go along with our Monday Wednesday episodes. Subscribers also get access to our weekly meditation and Q and A sessions, which we do live on video Every Tuesday at 4 Eastern. If you miss it, though, we send out the video afterwards. The Next one is October 21st. It's going to be Seb Solo sign up. Join the party and if you want to meditate with me in person, I am co leading a weekend retreat very soon, October 24th through 26th at the Omega Institute in Upstate New York. It's going to be me, Sabena Selassie, Jeff Warren and Afosu Jones Corte. It'll be super fun. We do a session Friday night, two sessions on Saturday, and then a final one on Sunday morning. In between, lots of free time to hike, play tennis, get a massage, do yoga, whatever. The sessions mix meditation, discussion among the teachers, discussion among the audience members. The idea is really to mix serious meditation practice with socializing, and that's why we call it Meditation Party. I'll put a link in the show notes if you want to sign up. Okay, we'll get started with Joanna Hardy right after this. You know those moments when someone just takes care of something for you? That's what ATT is doing. With the ATT guarantee, Staying connected matters. That's why AT and T has connectivity you can depend on or they will probably proactively make it right. That's the AT and T guarantee. Because staying connected isn't optional, it's essential and ATT wants you to feel that somebody's got your back. Terms and conditions apply. Visit att.comguarantee for details. @ and T connecting changes everything.
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Joanna Hardy
I've.
- [05:03]
Dan Harris
Got a busy fall, like I am traveling all the time. I was just looking at my calendar trying to make some time for a friend on a weekend and I realized I did not have a free weekend until mid November. And then after that I have no more free weekends, I think until the holiday. So a Lot of travel coming up. And one of the things I've been thinking about while traveling, especially when all of us are on the road, meaning my wife, my son and I are all out of the house and on the road together, is that there's a great way to make some extra cash while we're traveling. In other words, to get paid to take a vacation, which is to put our home up on Airbnb to host other people while we're traveling. This is an option you yourself might want to consider. You put so much time into making your home beautiful and comfortable. So when you're not in the home, why not help somebody else feel comfortable and taken care of while they're traveling? If you host your home on Airbnb while you're traveling, it's a great way to offset some of the costs of your trip. Whenever we travel, our place is just empty. So it's really like leaving money on the table not to put it up on Airbnb and see if somebody's interested in staying there. Your home might be worth more than you think. Find out how much@airbnb.com host Joanna Hardy. Welcome back to the show.
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Joanna Hardy
Thank you. I'm very excited to see you again. Just to even be in the space with you is really nice because I think I never have every time.
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Dan Harris
I've never done the show together in the same space. Yeah. I have a visual in my head of doing something together on Zoom. Was on Zoom.
- [06:46]
Joanna Hardy
Yeah. We did that Covid one. Covid deniers. And that was on Zoom, obviously, because it was in the middle of COVID The other was an election, insanity or sanity or something. Oh, no. There was one time. Sharon Salzberg in New York. Yeah, that's right. Yeah. Yeah. It's been a while, though.
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Dan Harris
Well, yeah. It's nice to be in person. We're in LA together. Let me start with a very basic question for you.
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Joanna Hardy
Okay.
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Dan Harris
What is Sela? S I L A. What does that word mean?
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Joanna Hardy
Yeah, simply translated to ethics, or the way we show up, behave through our speech and action in the world. It's a Buddhist concept. The word Sila is a Pali, which was the original language of the Buddha. I know you know this, but for anyone listening, that word sila translates to ethics. I can unpack.
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Dan Harris
Please do. Yeah.
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Joanna Hardy
Sorry. So Ethics lives in a particular place in the Eightfold Path, which is really kind of our guideposts and our. What is laid out as our practice. The whole of the practice is in the Eightfold Path in Buddhism, and it has three aspects there's the sila, which is this ethical part that we're going to unpack a bit. Samadhi, which is our actual meditation practice, and panya, which is our wisdom practice. Many people come through different aspects of the practice. Some people read a book, so the wisdom piece. Reading a book and understanding what we know to be like these truths of existence would be what lives in wisdom. The wisdom aspect, something like people might have heard of the Four Noble Truths, but there's also dukkha nita natta is in there, which is really just understanding the truth of the way things are. So that's in this wisdom piece, or wise intention is in this wisdom piece. And then the sila is how we live again through our actions, through our speech, through our livelihood, which I think you and I have really fortunately found a way to do that. It might have taken a while, but we got here. And then the samadhi, which is our actual meditation practice. So mindfulness is one of them, our effort towards mindfulness, and then our concentration. So those are all eight. And really, truly, it's not a linear path. None of the eight live without each other. They all really kind of work with and for each other. And as we talk about Selah, I'll explain how Selah is really supported by our mindfulness practice, our samadhi, and our wisdom. But like I said, for me, the doorway I came in through was through Selah. I was suffering a lot. And most of my suffering was through the drastic amounts of pain I was causing myself and other people in my life from a pretty young age. There was just one point when I knew there had to be a better way. And I knew that all the harm I was causing myself, wasn't it. I did a lot of other practices before I got here, but this one made the most clear sense to me, how it was laid out and how I then learned it. And so within Selah, like I said, there's how we speak and act, our actions and speech. And within that lives the precepts, which a lot of us have heard about. I don't know how much you want me to say right now before you ask me a question, I'll just, like, be like, no, it's a lot.
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Dan Harris
You're very passionate about it.
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Joanna Hardy
It's a fire hose. I am, totally.
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Dan Harris
Let me just reset the table just to make sure that everybody's got it. So one of the foundational lists in Buddhism, the Buddha liked to make lists. His first list was the Four Noble Truths, the fourth entry on the Four Noble Truths is a list within a list, a nested list. And it's called the Eightfold Path. And it's basically a recipe cookbook for getting enlightened. And it has, as you might imagine, these eight folds, these eight entries, and as you said, the eight entries on the Eightfold Path, the eight aspects of the path are divided up into three buckets, correct? One of the buckets is meditation or Samadhi. The other is wisdom, which is one of the fruits of meditation. And the Pali word for that is Panya. And then the third, which we're going to talk about today is Sila, which is ethics, which sounds a little bit like somebody thundering at you from a pulpit on Sunday morning telling you how to run your life. As we'll discuss, there are some broad guidelines about like not killing and not stealing. But as you will explain, like actually ethics in this context is much more self interested. It's like here's some guardrails that will help you be happier and that will actually be supported by your meditation practice and also support the meditation practice.
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Joanna Hardy
Correct.
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Dan Harris
It's quite interesting. And one last thing that you said that I just want to make sure I restate for people is that within Sila there are these five precepts, agreements that we make as Buddhists, which you don't even have to call yourself a Buddhist to adopt these. It's not like commandments. They're not etched in stone in the same way. They're also a lot less specific. There's nothing about like coveting your neighbor's wife or anything like that. It's a little bit more broad and there's a lot more room to play and interpret for yourself. So did I sum up what you were talking about?
- [11:53]
Joanna Hardy
Absolutely, yeah. And to really pinpoint what you were saying, my biggest turn on about Buddhism in general and the precepts specifically is it wasn't a dictate, you know, it wasn't a command. There's not a lot of judgment or criticism in it. Because I had grew up Catholic and then I moved to another tradition that was very much like you better, you must. And what this told me was my own level of maturity, my own level of self reflection, my own inner conscience was what I got to look towards. I studied psychology for a while and it was like this good enough parent idea, you know, I felt like the Buddha was a good enough parent. Right? Because there was a lot of permission, like you said, but the permission was also to check it out, see the ick factor for yourself, like see what actually Hurts. See what doesn't feel good, see what, you know, if it isn't conditioned out of us or, you know, if we haven't in some way numbed out, we really have the opportunity to check it out for ourselves. That was my biggest turn on because I was always a rebellious person and part of why I got in trouble. But I found the harder the rules and dictates, the less I understood or were interested in even trying to understand. But I sure knew what it felt like to lay in bed in the morning and just be like, what did I do yesterday? This doesn't feel good. I don't want to live like this. So that was my biggest turn on about this practice again, whether it's being Buddhist or not, it didn't matter. But there was so much clarity, so much permission, and no one was looking over my shoulder. And I didn't need to look over anyone's shoulder, right? So that's another part about the precepts that I like. Cause I can be. Ask anybody that knows me well. I can be like, wait a minute, do this this way, right? There's a right way and a. And I don't mean right and wrong like good and bad or good and evil. I just mean like, you didn't clean the house, right? Like that kind of. Right. You know, so I'm real good at that. But what I really like about this is it also gave me permission to not have to anyone else out for their selah or for how they're showing up in the world, because we're using the term fuck around and find out right now. So in many ways that's what it is. It's like fuck around and find out. And we get to do that and we get to see the constant mirroring in our relationships. And when we talk about hearing otapah, if we're going to go into that, I'll unpack that a little bit more. But yeah, the precepts, really truly and selah are, you know, we look at them as aspirational tools, as guidelines, as a possibility. And those possibilities can even be, you know, why I still like talking about this and why it's still interesting to me is as I watch my interest unfold into sort of societal or cultural sila, like, if we were to give America an archetype, or if we were to give a certain community or a religion or a race an archetype, not that anything is monolithic in that way, but, you know, if we think about what has been indoctrinated into us, a Certain precept, like even the first precept of not to kill, which a lot of times that means not taking the life of another sentient living being. So that can be broken down a lot. And this can be debated a lot, you know, especially in terms of, like, veganism or, you know, how we might eat. For me personally, I prescribe to be a vegan. Veganism is where my heart lives. It's not where my body lives. And every time I have this interesting story where I had been a vegan for about two and a half, three years, and I was following a Hindu tradition at the time, you know, it was one of the things that culturally was specified. Plus, it felt right in my heart. It felt right. Like that's what I wanted to be doing. I was the mom, a single mom of two young kids at the time. And I felt like shit most of the time. I was exhausted, I was tired, I had anemia. And I went to this nutritionist, and she was a psychic nutritionist. And she had been a Nazi youth. So she grew up during the Third Reich, and she was a captive. So her parents were German Nazis. So she was a captive in the concentration camps. And what ended up happening with a lot of those kids is they were as malnourished, they were abandoned also right by their parents, and they were just put in these camps and pretty left on their own. Anyway, when the war was over, she was an orphan at that point and was discovered by this man who was a nutritionist. His plight was to bring these children back to health. And they all had scurvy. You know, they were malnourished. So anyway, she has a very interesting story, but she then had this ability. She became a nutritionist as a woman. So when I met her, she was probably 85, and she showed me the tattoos, her concentration camp tattoos on her arms. And I said, you know, I really don't want to eat meat. She said, but you have to. She said, treat it as medicine every time you eat it, honor it, thank the animal. And then she looked at me and she said, you know, Hitler was a vegetarian. And I said, wow, no, I didn't know that. And she said, so it's not always, you know, she was like, well, so it's not always the only ethical way to go. So I took that in and I've tried again. This was probably 20 years ago. I've tried multiple times to be vegan again. And each time I suffer. So that's what interests me, like, around these sila pieces, around these precepts Right. Is how a certain culture might see something as ethically really wrong. It might be a law. Even when I think of the laws of slavery or the Jim Crow laws or these kind of things that were laws. And so there's a right and wrong wrong to it in society, yet these precepts are really less about that. Right. So it's like for these humans that might live in societal laws, but always kind of know it doesn't feel quite right. Those kids that decide they're going to leave the religion or leave the way that the family grew up because it doesn't quite fit them. So why again, I like these as these precepts is for us and only us to kind of grapple with and ponder and practice and settle. So when I give them as a practice to students or I've led many, you know, five week long courses and I'll have them do one precept a week and just really live in it and see how it feels, how their body responds, how their heart responds, how their mind responds and take it in that way. Yeah.
- [18:32]
Dan Harris
Is really consonant with one of the Buddha's slogans, which was come see for yourself. You rephrased it in two ways. One is check it out and the other is around and find out. And I love that the spirit of it is really different from a commandment. It's like, hey, do you want to be happy? I recommend don't lie a lot.
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Joanna Hardy
Right.
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Dan Harris
Don't lie at all. And when you do lie, what happens? Yeah.
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Joanna Hardy
Yeah. How does it feel? How does it feel for the other person? How does it feel for you? Do you have to keep lying to keep up the first lie? Yeah. Why do you have to lie? Like, what's the purpose? Then we get to keep digging deeper. Like a lot of people merely lie. Sometimes it's cause it's funnier. Right. Like sometimes we lie because it just makes a better story. Sometimes we lie because we want to be liked. Sometimes we lie because we think or saving somebody else's feelings. You know, there's a lot of reasons why people lie. And so I actually have a friend who said she was just completely not. And this is a person who does not lie. She was worried about lying on a forum for her immigration papers. Right. So she was like, I don't even wanna have to stretch the truth in any way in that way because for her it was just not feeling good.
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Dan Harris
Yeah.
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Joanna Hardy
Also again, why not to judge anybody else or yourself if something comes up? Parent wants their kid to be in a certain school district. So they use their cousin's address to get in that school district because it's a better school district for their kids. Like, okay, not telling the truth. And is it something that we need to suffer about? I mean, maybe you do, maybe you don't, but it's for us to fuck around and find out. Right, Right. Yeah. How does it land? And then also another piece of that is like, how much dissociating or dissonance is involved in some ways, how much do we lie to ourselves so that something can be okay? You know, oftentimes people don't know. It takes a big unraveling. And that's where this whole of the path is. Like you and I know that I liked the idea of Sela, that was my entry. But it really took me sitting and sitting and meditating and meditating and kind of unraveling the mind, you know, and its habits and its conditioning from birth to really start to understand even when I was lying to myself. That, again, is why I like that word path. It's because it has a distance to it, it has longevity to it. It's not fast food. It's not a drive through. Yeah. And there's something that always to aspire to. Yeah.
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Dan Harris
So there are a bunch of key terms and lists that we want to work through. Just to recapitulate a bit, we are going to talk about Sila, which is again, one of the aspects of the Eightfold Path. There are three entries in the Eightfold Path that have to do with ethics. We'll go through those, and then we'll talk about the five Precepts. And then I also want to talk about something else, in theory, in otoba. So I don't know if we'll get to all this. We'll see how it goes.
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Joanna Hardy
Let's see what I know.
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Dan Harris
Shoot. So in the Eightfold Path, and hopefully listeners are with me, the Dharma gets very nerdy. The afold path. All of the aspects of the Eightfold Path either use the word right or wise. So like right speech or wise speech, right, action.
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Joanna Hardy
And we can leave the right out or the wise.
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Dan Harris
Right.
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Joanna Hardy
We'll just say the word.
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Dan Harris
Okay. So speech, action, livelihood. Those are the three aspects of Sela within the Eightfold Path.
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Joanna Hardy
Correct.
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Dan Harris
So let's talk about speech. Yeah.
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Joanna Hardy
So speech mostly. Is it true? Right, Is it true? Again, like, what's true? Like what's true to you? What's true to me? We often say it's the capital T true versus the small T true. Like true for me is I Love chocolate or whatever that's really true for me. But the capital T trues that we're talking about, is it true? Is it a lie? To the best of your knowledge, are you telling the truth? Right? And how much we spread untruths because we heard it and believed it, that's a whole other thing. But is it true to the best of our knowledge and what we're sharing, Is it gossip or slander? When is our speech tearing somebody else down? Or are we using it to put somebody else down or heighten ourselves up? Is it timely? Is one of my favorite ones because when we're using speech, it's kind of like, how useful is it? How needed is it? So is it timely? It's like, I know that when my husband walks in the door and he's had a day filled with his writing and his head is not in the space to want to hear me talk about the contractor, it's not the right time. Or if one of my favorite things is like, read the room. Right? Like, wise speech is sort of like, read the room if know who you're talking to. Know if they're ready to listen, know if it's the right time to listen. If somebody's really suffering, might not be the right time to share a really big exciting thing that's in my life. It might not be sensitive. Not that what I want to share isn't true, but it might not be the right time. There's also, is it kind? And this is one that is it kind? Someone could say, well, it's true and it's timely, but is it kind? Just because it's true does not mean it's kind. Or just because it's kind does not mean it's true. So we're not talking about nice, we're talking about kind in that way. Like, is it helpful? Is this gonna help the other person to hear it? What else is in that list?
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Dan Harris
Is it useful?
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Joanna Hardy
Is it useful? It's a big one. And they all kind of wrap around each other in many ways. So does this person really need to hear this or want to hear this or how will it be held or taken? It's a pretty good list. You know, I've added things to it over the years. There's a six second rule that I've added to this, like a six second delay. Six second delay, right? So when you're talking to somebody or when you're listening. So I add listening into speech, by the way. So listening is the really important part of speech. So when somebody Else is talking, waiting six seconds before I respond. Because apparently there's been many studies that when a person is processing their own speech, they might not be done yet. And so sometimes at the very end is when the goodies come out. So there's this way that even with your own speech taking time with it, you know, processing as you're speaking. Which again, comes back to that mindfulness piece, the samadhi. How connected are we to our body before things come out of our mouth? So this speech is really. It's a whole process, right? Our mind is involved, our body's involved, there's a process involved. And knowing that what comes out of our mouth is going to have an impact, someone is then going to hear it. And there's a feedback loop. So the speaking and the listening is a constant feedback loop. There are people that speak at. And we've all been on the receiving end of that. So you can kind of tell they're not really there. They don't even care that you're there. They just want to talk. It might be out of nervousness, it might be out of whatever. Oh, idle chatter. That was the other one. Those moments, you know, when you're with somebody who just doesn't know how to not talk, every second of space has to be filled up and, you know, there's compassion for that. It's usually out of nervousness or something.
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Dan Harris
But there is a word for that.
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Joanna Hardy
Oh, what is it?
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Dan Harris
Some papalapa.
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Joanna Hardy
Some papalapa. I've heard you. I've heard you say that word before. I've all heard. Yeah, it's a good word.
- [26:10]
Dan Harris
Joseph Goldstein.
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Joanna Hardy
Okay. Yeah, it's good.
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Dan Harris
Joseph Goldstein, the great meditation teacher. Some papalapa is like the airtime filling move that many of us make. And his point is very similar to yours, which is when you notice yourself doing that, it's a good wake up call. Like, all right, check it out. Why am I doing this? And often he says, if you dig, you'll see the impulse is, here I am, look at me, right?
- [26:36]
Joanna Hardy
Here I am, look at me. Yeah. And then there's the opposite again, that this feedback loop is. I kind of grew up in a family that was like, we don't want to hear a thing you have to say. So I used to just really. I was an abbreviator of everything. I was like, okay, you got to get it out really fast and then stop because nobody really wants to hear what you have to say. And so I actually had to learn because there's a generosity of our speech and listening. Also, I had to learn how to talk, like from a place that wasn't rushed or assumed that somebody didn't want to hear. That was interesting for me to learn as a Dharma teacher, to learn how to actually give a whole talk versus a five minute talk, you know, so there's so much of our conditioning in our speech, how it was in our families, like my family also, it's like if my dad was really quiet, someone was in trouble. Right. And just like all of these things, speech has so much in it. I mean, of course, it's our words and the importance of our words and the impact of our words. And there's so much beauty there and there's so much harm there. And you know, words now in social media and in just how we can destroy a person in a few words and how we can create so much beauty in a few words. It's a big responsibility. You know, our speech is a big responsibility. Far beyond the lips moving and the. Yeah.
- [27:59]
Dan Harris
Just to say to the listener, write. Speech in and of itself is a vast discipline. And I will drop in the show notes some links to episodes we've done on this. But in the spirit of wanting to get a panoramic sense of what Buddhist ethics is all about, I'll keep moving to that school.
- [28:17]
Joanna Hardy
Awesome.
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Dan Harris
So just again, because all the lists can be confusing, we are focusing right now on the ethical aspect of the Eightfold Path, which has three parts to it. The first is speech. The second part is action. What does that mean? Action.
- [28:34]
Joanna Hardy
Right. So action is actually where the five Precepts live. So again, another list. It's all about that. So that is where the five Precepts live. So action merely of how we show up. Right, how we show up in the world through the five Precepts. Not killing and then speech again. Right. Because so many of these lists end up circling in on each other. Not stealing, so not taking what isn't freely given. How we are with our speech, how we are with our sexuality, and. And then how we are with intoxicants or mind altering substances. So those are the five killing, stealing, speech, sexuality, and intoxicants.
- [29:15]
Dan Harris
Okay, so let's go within this. We're now in a list within a list within a list.
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Joanna Hardy
I'm sorry, I wish I had a dry erase board. You know, I like the visual of that.
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Dan Harris
Me too.
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Joanna Hardy
You know, it's helpful.
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Dan Harris
Me too.
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Joanna Hardy
Yeah.
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Dan Harris
All right. But I think as long as.
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Joanna Hardy
But that's fine.
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Dan Harris
As long as we've got clear with the listener, they're cool. Okay. So let's walk through the five precepts. The first one is not killing. This is common to pretty much every faith. But what does it mean? Because you can go really deep on and creative on this concept of killing. So hold, if you will, big time.
- [29:49]
Joanna Hardy
Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I talked a little bit about this idea of veganism, right? So one would certainly be. Not taking the life of another human would be a great place to start. And again, this is. So I'm going to go back to a path factor list of intention. Intention holds a lot of space in the precepts. So what is our intention versus what is the impact? Right.
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Dan Harris
What's a path factor?
- [30:15]
Joanna Hardy
Oh, the Eightfold path. Okay, so the first is in the wisdom aspect. There's view and intention. Sorry, yo. It all makes so much sense is the thing. And it's just so. Yeah, our intention. Let's just think about intention. As I walk through these five, there's that old metaphor of the surgeon who has the knife, right? So a knife in the abdomen in the hands of a killer is one thing. A knife in the abdomen of the hands of a surgeon is another, right? So it's sort of like, what is the intention here? So just knife and abdomen doesn't have to be a bad thing. It depends on what the intention is and who's holding that knife. We could walk through each of the precepts in that way. So this idea of not killing as anybody that drives a car walks down the street, you know, bugs, insects are killed all the time. And, you know, you'll see in the Jain tradition, they'll actually walk down the street with a broom, you know, and apparently it's to move the bugs out of the way. That's the thing. And when you go on retreats, we'll see there's bug catchers, right? And people will be deep in their samadhi, deep in their meditation practice, and they'll lift and move and shift every bug that they see. And it feels good, right? Like there's this wholesomeness to it. The other part of this is like, we're not gonna kill, but we're also gonna protect life, right? So we're gonna take care of life. We're gonna make sure that life can thrive. You know, if we look at this culturally and societally, I mean, we live in a culture of factory farming where there's a dissonance, as most people, I would say, if they really knew or if they had to see where their meat was coming from. And I know there's a Lot of people that do expose and show this. We probably wouldn't be in as much of the meat industry as we are. And so there's this way that we can really disconnect, just as humans living in a capitalistic society, that this is, you know, how we move. And so when we sensitize ourselves because we're in the practice with it, because we've taken it on as a practice, as a way of being in the world. I shared this on when I talked to you before. When I really first took this on, I was living in a house that had rodents. And I didn't want to trap them, I didn't want to kill them, I didn't want to poison them. So I got cats, right? So that was my sort of first precept, creative way of dealing with the rodents in my house was cats. And it worked, it was great. Now they were still being killed. It just wasn't by me. It was like. It felt more like the cycle of life, right? There's the mosquitoes, there's the flies, there's the moths in your rice that you end up wasting the food, right? I talked to many monastics about what do I do with the moths? Do I kill the moths or do I throw out the food? And then I feel bad because there are starving people, right? And so like we're constantly grappling with this state of what's living and what is harm. And again, that's for us, that's for you. This Eji Pasico, like you said. See for yourself. How does it sit with you? You know, how does it rest with you?
- [33:33]
Dan Harris
Coming up, Joanna and I continue discussing the precepts. You know those moments when someone just takes care of something for you? That's what ATT is doing with the AT T guarantee. Staying connected matters. That's why AT&T has connectivity you can depend on or they will proactively make it right. That's the AT T guarantee. Because stay. Staying connected isn't optional, it's essential. And AT&T wants you to feel that somebody's got your back. Terms and conditions apply. Visit att.comguarantee for details. AT&T connecting changes everything. You know what's important to me and I think this is actually a non trivial part of happiness. This is going to sound crazy, but just bear with me. Socks. If your feet are uncomfortable, it's hard to be super happy. You might be mindful, you might be a quantum, but if your feet are scratchy, itchy, too warm, too cold, it's hard to Be happy. It really is. You know what? Socks. I really enjoy bombas. I just got a bunch of them. I exercise a lot, as you may know, and so I got some workout socks. I also work from home, as you may know. And so I wear athleisure a lot. So I wear the same cozy exercise socks during the day. And my sock game is tight now. These Bombas socks are awesome. Super comfortable. They happen to look good. So they've got some of those low cut socks that you can wear with like sneakers. It doesn't look like you're wearing socks, although you are wearing socks so that your feet don't stink anyway. That's probably tmi. I like Bombas. That's the bottom line. And by the way, Bombas makes more than just socks. They make slippers, tees and underwear. If you're shopping for back to school, check out bombas. And the best part, for every item you buy, Bombas donates one to somebody experiencing homelessness. Over 150 million items have been donated thanks to customers and with their happiness guarantee, if you're not 100% into what you bought, they'll make it right. No risk. All reward. Head over to bombas.com happier and use code happier for 20% off your first purchase. That's B O M B A S.com happier code happier at checkout. Okay, so first precept. Yeah, list within the list within a list. We're now on the precepts. The first precept is not killing. The next is not stealing. I mean there's the obvious interpretation, but how far can we take that?
- [36:07]
Joanna Hardy
Yeah. And so it's often worded as not taking what isn't freely given. Right. So anything that someone didn't say to you, you could, you shouldn't take. So that can go really far. Right. Do you pick the fruit off the tree? Probably not. If you're reaching over somebody's wall to take it. When I went to Japan, it was so beautiful. Like I literally could leave something as I did. I left something for an hour because I forgot it. And I ran back and it was still there. And it was a valuable thing. Right. And I was like, oh wow, there's a really strong sila here. And I knew that about that place. That's actually why I went at that time because my kids were little and it was either another place that I won't name or Japan. And I decided Japan. Cause I was taking them by myself because I knew the sila was so strong there. And I don't know if that's because it is just culturally embedded, I don't know if it's cause you get your hand cut off because you take it or what. The thing is, I don't know what the reason is behind it, but knowing that you're in a place your stuff is safe feels really good. It feels really good. And that is one of the biggest parts of the precepts is you are helping others feel safe around you. Others know that they are safe around you. So if I saw a phone sitting somewhere, you know, my tendency would be to pick it up and really make sure it got back to the person that it belonged to. That would feel really good to me. And I would go against all odds to try to make that happen. Right? And again, so there's that reciprocity, like, I feel good. This is that thing we were talking about. There's self interest here, feedback loop. This is a self interest, right? You know, now it can go a lot of ways now in terms of. A lot of climate activists are using this as like, how are we constantly taking, depleting the earth? You know, we're taking something that isn't ours to take because we are the dominant species and just because we can and because we want it and because we feel like we need it, right? So it can go that far. And then it could go something as simple as, I really don't like it when my daughter borrows my T shirts all the time and I can't find them when I want to wear them, right? So she's taking from me and she did not ask me if she could take it. Now it's funny, until I want to wear that T shirt again. This is something that you could really immerse yourself in. Some people will say, taking somebody else's time. So that's one that has become a thing. Or taking, you know, when I was a starving student and I worked for, I will not say who the network was, but I was a page at a network and I really needed toilet paper. And I thought it was perfectly fine to take toilet paper from the bathroom, right? I still think it's fine, but, you know, not a lot of offices get completely depleted because people are take all this stuff, you know, again, for us to really pay attention to, obviously don't take someone's car, don't take someone's, you know, stealing is stealing. But how that differs for us and how we hold it might look really different. Some people feel like they're really sticking it to the man when they take something, right? And they feel like it's justified because they feel like there is an equity. You know, again, I could go way too far with a lot of these, but I think it's good for people to think of for themselves.
- [39:27]
Dan Harris
Yeah, I've heard a link made between speech and not taking what isn't freely offered. Like, if you are interrupting somebody, which unfortunately I've done a couple times in this conversation with you. If you are taking all the attention in a conversation or in a social setting, that could be a second precept issue to explore.
- [39:48]
Joanna Hardy
Yeah, for sure. Why not? I mean, that's the thing, I think, when people actually decide to do it for themselves and not because they think it's a mandate or because they think they have to, or because someone told them to, or maybe because they don't really understanding it. They're just thinking at it from a conceptual level instead of really immersing in the precept. And I mean, some of the most interesting things get discovered. Right. And that can be one of them. It might be like, wow, I really notice myself doing that often.
- [40:20]
Dan Harris
Third precept is speech.
- [40:22]
Joanna Hardy
Again, back to speech. Yep. It holds a lot of places. So, yeah, those things I already mentioned, like, is it true? Is it idle chatter? Is it gossip and slander? I mean, Joseph has a great story about gossip and slander. I'm sure you've heard him say it. And I might get the percentages wrong, but he said that he at one point, you know, early on decided to take that one on fully and realized it took about 90% of his speech away. And that he found he didn't really have much to talk about anymore if he wasn't talking about somebody else with somebody else. And I think that could be true. I took that one on for a while, too. And my friends are like, who are you? Where did you go? But it felt good, you know, it felt really good. And again, what's beneath it? Like, what's the need? Why do I actually need to share that information about somebody else? Or what is it doing for me? I work at usc. I teach at usc. And working with college kids around this one is really good. It's really fun. Like, we explore it in a really fun way. And again, like, to be liked, you know, often will stretch the truth to be more interesting, to have a better life. You know, a lot of them talked about how they just wanted to make more friends and they felt that they weren't enough. Right. And so speech is powerful.
- [41:39]
Dan Harris
Fourth is sexuality.
- [41:40]
Joanna Hardy
Fourth is sexuality. And so that's not causing harm through our sexuality. This one I taught a whole course on, too, because it was so filled with so much for people. There's a lot of spaciousness in it. One of the precepts for the monastics. So the monastics have a lot more precepts. The nuns have a certain amount and the monks have a certain amount. It's in the 200-3- hundreds for them. But one of them was to not have sex with a melon. Right. Or really, what's often said is the Buddha made these precepts because they happened, and then he made the precept. Right. So the big ones are don't have sex with animals, don't have sex with minors. Which minors, for us here in this country, right. Is 18. Again, this is a societal number that was put on something. But back then, you know, children got married at 10, 11, 12 years old, 2,600 years ago. Right. So it was really supposed to be who is under the care of their parents. Seduction was one of them, like, not to seduce. Whereas now we're like, well, seduction's kind of nice. Like there's a part of it. But they meant in that way that you were talking somebody out of what they would want to do for themselves. Right. Obviously against anyone's will. So there's nothing saying anything, you know, in Buddhism around genders. It's really consensual sex. You are not meant to break up a marriage. But beyond that, it's kind of like games on. Right. There's nothing. You know, I was talking to a bunch of young people in Hollywood. A lot of people were suffering around, well, I'm into kink or I'm into these kind of other things. Am I breaking a precept? And again, it's for everyone to explore for themselves. But it was like, from what I read as far back as I could, and Bhikkhu Bodhi actually wrote a lot about communities, you know, and so he brought the precepts into that and he explored, like, what the suttas might have said. There's a lot of permission, but how much do you trust yourself? Was a thing. Right? Like, I was not trustworthy in that area at all. And I caused myself and others a lot of harm around my sexuality. So that was something I really had to learn and learn and learn and learn and didn't want to suffer anymore. Right. So I think it's an important one. It's an important one for a lot of people will be like, well, I'm married, so I can't Cause harm through my sexuality. But, you know, a lot of harm, you know, can be done even within. I'll call it a marriage. But there's lots of different ways of being in partnership. But the idea of if somebody is withholding their sex, you know, because they're mad at a partner, and so it's like, don't touch me. Which is a punishment. There's ways of overwhelming somebody who might not be interested in having sex. Right. Even if you're in a partnership. So it's not only about single people. It's not only about breaking your marriage and going out of your marriage, but it can also be like, again, I'm using the word marriage, meaning whatever you called your partnership. And it might be multiple partners. Right. But there are ways that we can still cause harm even within certain agreements. So really, that consent is a big piece of what I've read that the precept specifically talks about. Is it two consenting adults?
- [45:12]
Dan Harris
No melons.
- [45:13]
Joanna Hardy
Not a goat, not a melon.
- [45:17]
Dan Harris
Actually, melons are okay for us if we're not monks and nuts, maybe.
- [45:20]
Joanna Hardy
Right? Yeah. That's on the Vinaya. That's for the monks and nuns.
- [45:23]
Dan Harris
Yes.
- [45:24]
Joanna Hardy
The melons are okay or whatever. Yeah. It's good to know. See, permission. Like, there's so much permission and then. But do you feel good about it? Like, that's what it's going to come down to.
- [45:35]
Dan Harris
I don't know how I feel about it.
- [45:36]
Joanna Hardy
Don't tell your grocer before or after. Like, keep it to yourself. But yeah. So again, a lot of space there, and a lot of harm can be caused there.
- [45:50]
Dan Harris
Yes. So we've gone through four of the precepts. Let's do the fifth, which is not using intoxicants to the point of heedlessness. Is that the right.
- [46:00]
Joanna Hardy
Yeah. So there are some fundamentalist Buddhists that really feel like the word heedlessness was never there, that it was just no intoxicants, period. There is a sutta that talks about not even so much as on the tip of a blade of grass. Right. So pretty much nothing. Some interpret it that way. Again, these are very old suttas that were oral traditions. Right. Passed down. So the interpreter and how that is relayed, and then some add onto it that lead to heedlessness. So that would be like, at what point do you become heedless after using an intoxication?
- [46:38]
Dan Harris
Again, I know many dharma teachers who drink wine.
- [46:41]
Joanna Hardy
Oh, as do I. Again, this is for somebody to know for themselves. Right. Like, I know plenty of people who are addicts and I worked a lot in that community who one glass of wine is never going to be okay for them. The precept of nothing is what's going to cause the least amount of harm, right? So I don't want to give permission to anybody to say, oh, well, some Buddhists do or dharma teachers do, right? It might not be okay for that person and for someone else, that tight, hard limitation feels different than what these precepts are meant to represent, right? Which is, again, see for yourself. So the use of plant medicines have become a very popular thing. Ketamine therapies, psilocybin therapies, and, like, all of these things have really been groundbreaking and so, so helpful to a lot of people for all kinds of things. And so to put a limitation on and say, absolutely no intoxicants. Now, whether that's considered an intoxicant or a medicine, right? But to some, it's like, hard line, no, nothing that is not natural to our bodies.
- [47:53]
Dan Harris
Well, would those people not use anesthesia?
- [47:56]
Joanna Hardy
Oh, no, I'm sure they would use anesthesia.
- [47:58]
Dan Harris
Right? So the same thing. I mean, propofol is an intoxicant, right? It's the only reason why I will agree to a colonoscopy, right? Because of the propofol.
- [48:08]
Joanna Hardy
Right?
- [48:08]
Dan Harris
Not only because I don't feel it while it's happening, but because I enjoy it when I wake up.
- [48:12]
Joanna Hardy
It's your one moment ever sidebar.
- [48:16]
Dan Harris
I think I might have told you this story before, but I was waking up once for my first colonoscopy, and I heard myself say, these drugs are amazing. And the nurse didn't even turn around and just said, third time. You're telling me third.
- [48:32]
Joanna Hardy
That's hysterical. You're like, do I really have to wait seven years for my next colonoscopy? Exactly.
- [48:38]
Dan Harris
I think I feel a polyp.
- [48:39]
Joanna Hardy
Doctor, can we check? That's awesome. Yeah. So again, that's why I'm saying heedlessness. Like, let's say the word heedlessness is there. And, you know, the thing is, like, well, heedlessness would be breaking all four of the other precepts, right? Like telling somebody off, killing them and, you know, having sex with them while you're doing it or whatever. And so the point of this is, do you have clarity of mind? Are you mindful? Is your samadhi present? Is your mindfulness present? Is your intention present? Can you still be on the path? Right? Can you still know your path? Because the path, as is often Called is the prescription, right? It's a prescription for liberation, to be free from suffering. And so if that heedlessness causes you to suffer or do something like get in a car accident and hurt somebody or something like that, or even maybe saying something you wish you hadn't said because you know, you're just feeling a little more free from that glass of wine or that fifth glass of wine, then it's kind of, you're going back, you're spiraling back into, damn it, I fucked around and I found out, right? So do I need to do that anymore? It's just a question for yourself.
- [49:49]
Dan Harris
Sharon Salzberg, another great meditation teacher, often talks about the fact that we don't. The point of meditation is not to like get awesome at meditation. It is to be better at your life. And so this in some ways can be seen as like a really important extension of the practice.
- [50:03]
Joanna Hardy
You know, it is. And that's why it's the path, like this thing that we keep pounding, this path, that is a number. You know, oftentimes people will describe it as the three strands of the braid, the sila, samadhi and panya. You can't make a braid with just two pieces of hair. You need three. I'm sure there's other ways that people explain it, but it's. They all need each other to live off of. So, yes, our understanding of what our meditation practice is, naturally in us arises this wellness, this well being, this stillness, this silence, this clarity, right? Is what naturally comes out of our practice.
- [50:46]
Dan Harris
Coming up, Joanna talks about right livelihood, talk about our Buddhist tattoos. And then we hit a very compelling, provocative topic. The notion of healthy shame and healthy embarrassment. You know those moments when someone just takes care of something for you? That's what AT&T is doing. With the AT&T guarantee, staying connected matters. That's why AT&T has connectivity you can depend on or they will proactively make it right. That's the AT&T guarantee. Because staying connected isn't optional, it's essential. And AT&T wants you to feel that somebody's got your back. Terms and conditions apply. Visit att.comguarantee for details. AT&T connecting changes everything. You know what's important to me, and I think this is actually a non trivial part of happiness. This is going to sound crazy, but just bear with me. Socks. If your feet are uncomfortable, it's hard to be super happy. You might be mindful, you might be a quantumist, but if your feet are scratchy, itchy, too warm, too Cold. It's hard to be happy. It really is. You know what? Socks. I really enjoy Bombas. I just got a bunch of them. I exercise a lot, as you may know and so I got some workout socks. I also work from home, as you may know and so I wear athleisure a lot. So I wear the same cozy exercise socks during the day. And my sock game is tight. Now these Bombas socks are awesome. Super comfortable. They happen to look good. So they've got some of those low cut socks that you can wear with like sneakers and doesn't look like you're wearing socks, although you are wearing socks. Socks so that your feet don't stink anyway. That's probably tmi. I like Bombas. That's the bottom line. And by the way, Bombas makes more than just socks. They make slippers, tees and underwear. If you're shopping for back to school, check out bombas. And the best part, for every item you buy, Bombas donates one to somebody experiencing homelessness. Over 150 million items have been donated thanks to customers and with their happiness guarantee, if you're not 100% into what you bought, they'll make it right. No risk. All reward. Head over to bombas.com happier and use code happier for 20% off your first purchase. That's b.com happier code happier at checkout. So just to reset again, sorry to be neurotic about this. We've been dwelling in a list within a list within a list. There's the Eightfold Path, just to reset at the top, which is the sort of eight parts of the recipe for getting enlightened. Within the Eightfold Path are these three aspects of wisdom, meditation and ethics. And we've been looking at the three aspects of ethics within this bucket of the Eightfold Path. And within one of the aspects of ethics in the Eightfold Path, there's a list of within a list within a list, which is the five Precepts, Correct. So we've now we've come out of that list within a list within a list and we're going back to the livelihood.
- [54:02]
Joanna Hardy
Right?
- [54:03]
Dan Harris
So we've talked about right speech, right action Again, right action or wise action is where the five Precepts live. So let's do livelihood.
- [54:11]
Joanna Hardy
Okay, don't know much about this. What I do know is there are from the perspective of the Buddhist teaching, anything where you deal in meat, like harming animals, arms, so firearms, alcohol, like all the things that would have you breaking these Precepts, right? So dealing in gambling or making Your livelihood off of extrapolating or harming somebody else. Then what would wise livelihood or right livelihood or wholesome livelihood be? Well, what we do, right? Spreading the dharma, talking about how people can live better, reflection, contemplation. There are so many beautiful ways of making money. And even some of those, you know, I have a lot of friends who are. Let's go back to that first precept for a second. One of their livelihoods is being sustainable farmers, right? So they're raising animals. And actually this is where we buy from. You know, we buy from these family farms that are raising their animals free range and are eating off of the hills and the valleys of California. And I have not been in the kill room, but are humanely killing the animals, for lack of a better word. There are, I'm sure, livelihoods now that maybe would have been seen as one way and aren't now. I mean, some people are even considering hunting in the way that hunting's being done these days, as truly ethical practices and using the whole animal, you know, So I respect that. So in terms of livelihood, again, same for yourself. But I don't even like saying some of the things, right? Cause it's like being a bar owner, selling, having a liquor store. And some of those people are quite lovely people and their family businesses. And, you know, there are people that are making amazing wines and have these vineyards. I actually had a student who ran a vineyard, and he was coming to me because he was in distress. I kept really grappling with, is this wise livelihood? And so, like, we spent months together working on this, right? Cause I wasn't gonna give him an answer. It's not my place to say anything, but he really worked through it.
- [56:27]
Dan Harris
I think one way to look at this is this list comes from the Bronze Age, I think, you know, 2,600 years ago. And the Buddhists always had this caveat of, ei, hi, Pasako, come see for yourself. So there's this list, but I don't know that every bar owner listening to this exactly. Needs to.
- [56:48]
Joanna Hardy
Exactly.
- [56:49]
Dan Harris
Life. It's like, all right, absolutely. Let's figure out how we relate to this.
- [56:53]
Joanna Hardy
Yeah.
- [56:54]
Dan Harris
How does it feel for us?
- [56:54]
Joanna Hardy
How does it feel for us? I mean, if you keep pouring a 14 year old into a cab at the end of your shift, it might not be the most, you know, wholesome way of spending your day. Like, again, how does it feel? Truly? And, you know, people need to make money and some people are supporting families. And one of the beautiful things about the path, again, thinking long Thinking far, thinking wide, is, is there a possibility to work towards something different? And so many people I know that are working through. One of my students was a dancer in a club, you know, and she was really trying to work through was this the right way for her? And we spent about a good five years working through it, you know, and working on it. And it was a long term practice and it was beautiful, you know, and again, it was for her to work through. I was there to support her and no one was calling it wrong or bad or something she shouldn't do. It was something that was helpful and necessary at the time. You have a tattoo?
- [57:52]
Dan Harris
Yeah, I have a tattoo. Wow. Inspired by. Are you friends with Spring Washem?
- [57:57]
Joanna Hardy
Yeah.
- [57:58]
Dan Harris
Who?
- [57:58]
Joanna Hardy
She was supposed to be on the call this morning, too. Oh, she was, yeah.
- [58:01]
Dan Harris
Yeah. Just for context, tell us about the call that you're referencing.
- [58:04]
Joanna Hardy
There's a call that a few black female teachers have sometimes, rarely, sometimes more often. And there are a few teachers that are on this call. And Spring was meant to be on the call, but I couldn't make it this morning.
- [58:19]
Dan Harris
She and I, not far from here, like about an hour or two south of here, did a one on one loving kindness meditation.
- [58:26]
Joanna Hardy
That's right.
- [58:26]
Dan Harris
Many years ago. And she was joking during it that she wanted me to get the words for the benefit of all beings tattooed on my chest. So I got an acronym of it, F T B O A B on my wrist.
- [58:38]
Joanna Hardy
Amazing.
- [58:39]
Dan Harris
Which actually is much more useful than a chest tattoo because you see it all the time. And it's just. This is just a reminder. It's a mindfulness pill.
- [58:45]
Joanna Hardy
I love it. I love it. Yeah. I have upicka on my arm, which is a similar.
- [58:54]
Dan Harris
Yes. Peka, not to be confused with woody Woodpecka is the Buddhist term for equanimity.
- [59:03]
Joanna Hardy
Yeah, yeah. It says, I am the heir to my own karma. My happiness or unhappiness are dependent upon my actions, not upon my wishes. So this is Selah. Right. And that's a big reason why I got it. My actions, not upon my wishes, make mistakes, Fall, show up.
- [59:25]
Dan Harris
Would it be fair to say that making mistakes, that is a part of the path?
- [59:29]
Joanna Hardy
Absolutely. Well, I mean, it's part of being human, right? Yeah. I mean, from the time that we learn to crawl, from the time we learn to walk, if we call falling down when a baby's learning to walk a mistake, then it's not a mistake. Right. It's just part of learning. It's part of growing, it's part of strengthening it's part of doing something new and different. If we've been living a certain way, and that's all we know, we're conditioned in that way of living, then it's not necessarily a mistake. It's just we're growing out of one way of being into another. And then it's interesting because, like, once we start to know, you know, it's that sort of thing. There's a fable, a story I love to read. It's called Autobiography in five short chapters. And it's. You're walking down a street, you fall into a hole. You're in the hole. You don't know where you are. You can't get out. It's not my fault, right? And then you're chapter two, walking down the street, fall into the hole. It's not my fault, but you get out. Third chapter, walking down the street, fall into a hole. Again, how did I get here? You get out. Fourth chapter, walking down the street, fall into the hole. It is my fault. You get right out. Fifth chapter, you walk around the hole, right? So it's that way, like, takes a while. So is that a mistake at first, when you don't know, you're unaware, it's not your fault. You don't even know how you got there. But then slowly, over time, we learn there's even a sixth chapter where you walk down a different street, right? So, yeah, it's sort of the beauty again of that longer path where nobody's hopefully beating us up for it, nobody's shaming us for it, nobody's telling us we're a bad person for it. But we learned through that repeated intention of wanting to grow like that North Star is there. You know, we have these guidelines, we have these paths, we have these lists, and they're very helpful. And it's a lot, you know, like a lot of these lists at first can feel. You know, some people say it's like driving a car for the first time, right? Where there's like the gear shift and the rear view mirror and there's other people and there's the steering wheel and there's this and there's that and ah. But then after a while, you get in a car and you're just driving it right smooth. You got it. Accidents will happen, will be taken by surprise, but it becomes more smooth. And that's kind of how these path factors and these precepts all start to work together, you know, in this body of awareness. And we oftentimes recognize things quicker. Like our response time doesn't take so long. And then again, that's where like, maybe being intoxicated, our response time might take a little bit longer, so. Oh, like I know that. Right. Or for me, like with the speech part right now, in certain political situations, I really have to pay better attention than I would at other times when I know I'm going to be with certain people or in certain situations, my tendency might be to want to really educate. I'll put it in those terms. You know, it might not always be useful or timely or helpful or wise or kind. And so that's where all of these really. So then I need to have mindfulness of my body and awareness. Right. And so this is being in that car. Like, we're all in that car together. You're going to annoy me. That car's going to be over there. Yeah, but can I just keep driving? There's my. There's direction. I'm going and. Yeah. So how much can we hold? How much can we hold at once? Yeah.
- [63:09]
Dan Harris
This actually kind of brings us nicely to Hiri and Otapa. Okay, so the conventional wisdom in psychological circles is that shame is unhealthy.
- [63:19]
Joanna Hardy
Right? Right.
- [63:20]
Dan Harris
In Buddhism, there's this pair of concepts. And by the way, now we've kind of left the list area. There's this pair of concepts, Hiri, H I R I and Ottapa, O T T A P P A, I think.
- [63:33]
Joanna Hardy
Yep.
- [63:34]
Dan Harris
Which are sometimes referred to as moral shame and moral dread.
- [63:37]
Joanna Hardy
Yeah.
- [63:38]
Dan Harris
And these are healthy things. How do we understand this as a kind of healthy version of shame? These as a kind of healthy version of shame.
- [63:46]
Joanna Hardy
And these are such bad translations, truly. And again, I feel like these are translations that were, you know, kind of like every version of the Bible goes through the diaspora of the time. And who's writing it? Right. And I'm like, I'm not quite sure who put those translations on it, but. So can I kind of frame it how? In my experience, and how some of the teachers that like Ajahn Tsuchito or Carol Wilson might frame it, that has really made it helpful for me to understand is we're born into these bodies that has this natural desire. You know, maybe even if we had a good enough parent, we learn to empathize and be come into sync with a primary caregiver or givers or tribe. Our nature is to want to please. Right. To want to get a positive response, to want to have a nice, pleasant feedback where there isn't punishment involved or an ouch involved. This is a really great way that I like to think of heary. It's that natural way of wanting to show up with grace and care. And it is a mental state, you know, mental way of being. It's often called our conscience, where we can read the room. Like we can see what's in front of us. And the response that we hope to get is the same one that we're giving. We don't want to be punished.
- [65:18]
Dan Harris
Would you say heary is what we're checking in on when we are fucking around and finding out?
- [65:24]
Joanna Hardy
Right? But it's that pre knowing it's that way. Like if we're just walking down the street and we're in a good mood and we just want to say hi to everybody and we don't need anything bad to happen. We're just like interested in having a good day and we want everyone else to share in that good day. It's that thing, but it's also that experience of like that moment, maybe when you say something to someone, you're having your good day and you're like, nice hair, right? And you're seeing that they are like, what do they mean by that? And then you're kind of having that moment of like, oh shit. Like, ew, ew, that felt bad. Like, I wish I hadn't said it in that way, right? It's that instant feedback. It's that instant. And it's not, yes, they had a response, but it's that like you wish that hadn't come out of your mouth. You know, something as simple as that. And so the moment when you understand that there's been an impact on the person, that's the otapa. So the hearing is that real desire just for it all to go well. It's that understanding of knowing how you are impacts the other person. This was the word I was looking for. Just like self respect, conscience, instinct, your inner ick is one that really works for me. I feel really good about myself. This self respect that we were talking about, the self awareness when I behave and show up in the world in a certain way, this is that idea of hearing. So where the word shame came from around that and how it's sometimes translated is meant to be a growth point from it. It's that moment of that inner ick. I knew it happened. So the point is not to beat yourself up. So guilt and shame can often be like kind of put together, but guilt is so self involved, right? It's really like, I did something bad. And you kind of spin in on yourself and you start like trying to dig your way out of it. And apologizing, but not apologizing because you care about how they felt, but apologizing because you want them to feel good about you again. Right. So guilt often comes with that. Right. It's. I feel like I did something bad and I don't want them to think poorly of me. Shame, from what I understand, is far more, can be very productive. It can be a growth point. It can be something to say, I didn't like how that felt and how can I change through that? How can I not do that again? How can I have a different understanding? How can I experience it again in my body? Like, if we think of the preverbal child when they are reading somebody else, it's not. There's no words coming from it, but there's a feedback loop where they're kind of going, oh, you know, I watch it with my dogs. My dogs understand like, oh, she didn't like that. It's out of my vocabulary. Right. I don't do that behavior anymore. And that can look good and bad. Right. Cause some kids can just be punished, so things are punished out of them. So this is where I think it gets interesting around conditioning versus pure behavior. Right. Not conditioned behavior, but that pure desire to want to be a good human being and to again, have empathy and to connect.
- [68:41]
Dan Harris
But let me just see if I can sum us up to this function.
- [68:43]
Joanna Hardy
And this is allotted by interpretation, like, my understanding of it.
- [68:47]
Dan Harris
I don't expect anything. Okay, heary? So we're talking about hiri and otapa. Often you would argue mistranslated as moral shame and moral dread. Hiri, my understanding, based on talking to you in this conversation thus far is this inner knowing we have is like, eh, it doesn't feel good when I'm an asshole.
- [69:05]
Joanna Hardy
Exactly.
- [69:06]
Dan Harris
And otapa is kind of. It's a moral shame in that we have an inner sense of when we've put a foot wrong. Moral dread, or otapa is kind of about a healthy sense of worrying what other people think.
- [69:21]
Joanna Hardy
It's an impact. Yeah.
- [69:22]
Dan Harris
Yes. How we are in the community, how our relationships are with other people. Sometimes I've heard it described as like, would you want your Buddhist teacher to see you doing this?
- [69:33]
Joanna Hardy
That's funny. Yeah. We always talk about, would you want them to see that in your grocery cart?
- [69:37]
Dan Harris
Yeah.
- [69:38]
Joanna Hardy
That's interesting. I'm gonna give you an example of a hiri otipah moment I had. I was dropping Andre off at the airport, my husband at the airport, and this woman flipped me off. I was pulling out in my car. I've never road raged before. Let's put that first. Never had, like. I've never had that experience of, like, road rage. And so normally I'm just kind of. Cause I've learned from my practice. I would rather be like, oh, I'm sorry. You know. Yeah, you're right. I'll just keep driving. Or you. No one can piss me off that much. It's not really worth it. Well, this woman. Oh, I'm gonna precursor it with. It was the day of the fires here in Los Angeles. So we're talking February, early February, and Los Angeles was on fire. And I had a lot of friends who were very impacted. And we were impacted a little bit. But I was in a mood, right? So I wasn't as maybe grounded or mindful or engaged with myself as normal. I was appealing. It was a really tragic day one. So I was dropping him off at the airport, and I'm pulling out. I didn't know this woman was trying to get in, and she's flipping me off and just, like, yelling at me. And I was like, whoa, I didn't even know you were there. So I was like, okay, okay. And I'm shuffling to get out, and then she ends up blocking me unintentionally. So I very intentionally laid my hand on the horn for like, 10, 15 seconds. Like, long, hard, loud. To the point where the guy who was directing traffic says to me, it's not that big of a deal, lady. Like, he's saying that to me, right? And then she and I are both like this at each other. It was so satisfying. It felt so good. So good.
- [71:22]
Dan Harris
Did it, though.
- [71:23]
Joanna Hardy
In that moment, it was everything. And I was like, why haven't I done this before? In that moment, this. The second I pull away, Otapa, right? I lost my heary. Hiri was gone. Awareness was gone. I was all caught in righteousness and anger and whatever else was there. Indignation. And it took seconds, like, after, especially when the guy, like, he was so calm, he was like, it's not that big of a deal, lady. It was like, ding. And I'm driving away and Otapai hit me.
- [71:58]
Dan Harris
Healthy embarrassment.
- [71:59]
Joanna Hardy
Healthy embarrassment. And just like, really, Joanna? Like, was it really worth it? It was so. It. Like, it was three seconds of total pleasure. And it was more like release, you know, like all of the whatever was coming up from the fires and that. It just was like, thank you for showing up so that I could have you to, like, release on, you know? But then after Just that, like, oh, that was not my best me. I wanted to take it back. And that lasted. So the three seconds of pleasure, the Otapa lasted three hours. I mean, it lasted. I'm still talking about it, right? So it's still here. Like, there's still just, like there's still a spider. I killed that. To this day, I can see when I think about, like, the first precept, right? Or it's funny, the stuff that'll. That'll really stick with you. So it's that moment of really understanding. I used to work in prisons and in juvenile detention facilities, and a lot of times they would talk about those five seconds that changed their lives, right? And where they are now. Because we like to think of people in prison as bad people, you know, and it's like a bad moment that somebody had. And that's like the true outplay of Otapa, right? But it's that I made a commitment to myself that I don't need to do that again, right? And that feels really good. It feels good to have that knowing. I'd heard about road rage, and I know a lot of people that really like it, like, they got off on it, right? It's like such a thing for some people are road ragers even, like, they label themselves. And I was like, yeah, I don't need that. I don't need that label. I don't need that tattoo. My mouth is just unskillful at times. I think I'm really smart and clever and funny and right? And so I often will have these experiences where I will have said something to a friend, and I've gotten very good at apologies. Not the I'm sorry, you know, so that I feel better. Not the guilt kind of apology, but the, oh, I really understand that that was unskillful. I want them to know that I know. And sometimes I'll make that call and they'll be like, I don't even know what you're talking about. Right? Which is fine. It was still my hearing. It was still my hearing and my Otapa. And there's other times that they'll just be like, yeah, thank you. You know, that did feel a little odd. It just gives me clarity. It gives me clarity on the moment. You know, there's obviously like the tiniest of things that we do, and then there's again, just going back to, like these social consciousness of maybe you're indoctrinated into a family or a worldview where something I would see as really atrocious is part of your Culture, it's part of the way that you were raised. And so it fits. I wonder about that. I think about that. You know, we're born into different eras. The Buddha talks about this is getting into a whole other thing, but just talks about when we talk about karma, right. Which is action. When we talk about action, like, karma is a big part of it, intention and action. But our karma could be very much dictated by the era that we're born, the body that we're born into, you know, the families that we're born into. And so when I think about hearing otapa in that term, is it truly like a human knowing without any conditions yet on it? And then how often do we need to get deconditioned or unlearn, you know? So again, that's something that I just like to play with and grapple with, because we can get very righteous in ways of being or ways of thinking or ways that we think other people should be. And where does Hiri and Otapa live in that?
- [75:56]
Dan Harris
I think what makes them. I keep saying these are kind of a healthy version of shame and a healthy version of embarrassment.
- [76:02]
Joanna Hardy
Yeah.
- [76:03]
Dan Harris
And this might be a good place to kind of wrap it up. I think what makes them healthy as opposed to unhealthy, is that an unhealthy shame, which is most shame, frankly. And guilt and embarrassment is your. There's a lot of self in it. You're telling yourself a story. I did this quote, unquote bad thing. I am a bad person.
- [76:22]
Joanna Hardy
Right.
- [76:22]
Dan Harris
I'm this kind of person because I did that thing. You're putting your head further up your ass because you're telling yourself this whole story about yourself, as opposed to the healthy part, is like, yeah, I. In Buddhism, it's sometimes referred to as like a wise remorse. Yeah, I. I did this bad thing. I should make the call and apologize and demonstrate that I clearly understand and offer to make some sort of amends. But I'm not stuck, right, in what I sometimes call like a psychic constipation, where to keep going with the scatological references here, where I nothing can happen, nothing can move. Because I'm stuck in this story about myself as opposed to thinking about what the harm might have been to somebody else.
- [77:06]
Joanna Hardy
Absolutely. Yeah. No, that's good. Scatological, the term that you used earlier, it's that self involved. It's a difference between self awareness and self involved. Right?
- [77:16]
Dan Harris
Yes.
- [77:17]
Joanna Hardy
Because again, it takes us out of the relational aspect. If we're using selah in terms of the relational aspect. And it's just spinning us in on ourselves and we know what that feels like sitting on the cushion. So when we've had a bad day of Selah, right. It's a different experience to sit on the cushion. It's a different experience in our meditation. If we're spending all of our time in a review of the day before or a review and how you're a bad person and how you're being self critical. It's really different than watching what happens. Which is so beautiful when we're not constantly breaking a precept or causing harm in some way is we actually get to see the practice as it truly is, which is how the mind works and how we can have spaciousness and how it can be such a beautiful intimate review of what's actually happening versus again, the conditioned response and habit response to a behavior. We don't get past that if we're constantly apologizing or in some way in our mind just spinning out. Yeah, we don't get to grow. Yeah. Again, it's a path.
- [78:33]
Dan Harris
Before I let you go, is there something we should have talked about but didn't?
- [78:38]
Joanna Hardy
Well, I mean forgiveness is a good, just a little, A good thing to have on this too. Just as a practice too, when we make that mistake or break that precept, you know, as we call it, that understanding is again, like you had pointed out, is not to be that it's not helpful to beat ourselves up, it's not helpful to beat somebody else up. And how the forgiveness practice works is have I caused harm to myself? Have I caused harm to somebody else? Or who? Has somebody caused harm to me? Right. And all these are practices to liberate our hearts from these. A precept that's been broken or maybe one that's been broken that we've had the impact from. Forgiveness practice has been a really nice way for me. I could not actually let myself out of that cycle that you were talking about until I forgave myself for some of the harms that I'd caused through breaking the precept or through not having, you know, strong selah. And it's not forgiveness in a superfluous way of like, oh, now it's better, right? It's never to say, oh, I'm forgiven now I can do it again or I forgive you now you can harm me again. It's very much a way to liberate our hearts from the constant chatter of shame or remorse or guilt. That is not the healthy version, not the true hiry Utapa version.
- [80:09]
Dan Harris
Can you Just run through the practice one more time. So people, if they want to do it in their own life, can do it.
- [80:13]
Joanna Hardy
Yeah. So the first part is how I've caused harm to myself. And it's often phrased beautifully as knowingly or unknowingly out of my own hurt or confusion, how I've caused harm to myself, how I have caused harm to somebody else, knowingly or unknowingly out of my own confusion or delusion. And then how has somebody else caused me harm, which can often be the biggest one for people, especially if there's been any childhood trauma or abuse that can really take over somebody's whole life. Right. And it's hard to grow past and beyond that. It can be a really big heart's release. So how somebody else may have caused harm to you, knowing they're unknowingly out of their own confusion or delusion, it's a. Not only a forgiveness practice, but a compassion practice. Yeah, it's quite beautiful. I actually couldn't do metta practice until I forgave myself. I couldn't allow myself metta for myself until I forgave myself for a lot of my earlier life harms and transgressions. Yeah, yeah. So that all just feeds each other. Right. So then that makes me want to just show up as a better human. And do I make mistakes? Yes. Do. Am I. Do I have awareness around it? Yes. Yeah. Not everybody likes me.
- [81:45]
Dan Harris
Who doesn't like you? Other than the woman in the car.
- [81:48]
Joanna Hardy
Right. She probably really likes me now, though. We actually had a good agreement, our fucking. We're like, we got it. We saw each other. We were looking right in each other's eyes.
- [81:59]
Dan Harris
For those listening who do like you and want to get more from you, where can we. Do you have a website? Where can we learn more about you and also maybe talk a little bit about your work at Apple?
- [82:10]
Joanna Hardy
Yeah. Well, I do have a website, joannahardy.org I'm not doing a whole lot right now, mostly because I'm just giving myself a little bit of a break. I do teach retreats occasionally. I have a group in Los Angeles, if people live in Los Angeles and want to come to that group. And then I am working for Apple at Fitness. It's a great app and I do 5, 10, and 20 minute meditations. And we do things like calm and sleep and sound and focus and resilience and kindness. So there's lots of great meditations that we do. And it's really. It feels like. Right livelihood. I feel like I'm getting to reach a lot of people who wouldn't normally go to meditation because it is a fitness app. So people are going to work out and to get fit and then suddenly they stumble upon this meditation thing. And a lot of people just, it's kind of the add on to all of their workouts, you know. So it's, it's a great way to integrate it into your day, you know, even if for five minutes in your car. So I'm really appreciating getting to do that work and then we'll see what's next.
- [83:21]
Dan Harris
I appreciate you coming on the show.
- [83:23]
Joanna Hardy
Thank you.
- [83:28]
Dan Harris
Thanks again to Joanna Hardy. Just to say to you, the listener write speech is in itself a vast discipline. And I will drop in the show notes some links to episodes we've done on this. It's so fascinating. Don't forget that we've got a guided meditation that comes with this episode. It's from our teacher of the month, 7A Selassie, who is also a close friend of mine and Joanna's. And it's all about how to tune into your inner guidance system, to use 7A's term. The goal here is to help you operationalize everything you just learned in that conversation with Joanna and just pound it into to your neurons, as I like to say. Seb will also be doing a live meditation and Q and A session on Tuesday, October 21st. These guided meditations are only for people who are subscribers over@danharris.com Subscribers also get weekly live meditation and Q and A sessions. The next one's coming up on Tuesday, October 21st. That's me solo. And finally, don't forget about the meditation party retreat on October 24th through 26th. Seb will be there. Jeff Warren, Afoso Jones Corte it's gonna be awesome. Link in the show notes. Finally, thank you to everybody who worked so hard on this show. Our producers are Tara Anderson and Eleanor Vasily. Our recording and engineering is handled by the great folks over at Pod People. Lauren Smith is our managing producer. Marissa Schneiderman is our senior producer. DJ Cashmere is our executive producer. And Nick Thorburn of the band Islands wrote our theme.
- [85:03]
Joanna Hardy
Morning.
- [85:04]
Dan Harris
Zoe Got Donuts.
- [85:05]
Joanna Hardy
Jeff Bridges why are you still living above our garage?
- [85:08]
Dan Harris
Well, I dig the mattress and I want to be in a T Mobile commercial like you. Teach me.
- [85:14]
Joanna Hardy
Suldanna oh no, I'm not really prepared. I couldn't possibly at T Mobile get the new iPhone 17 Pro on them. It's designed to be the most powerful iPhone yet and has the ultimate pro camera system.
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Dan Harris
Wow, impressive. Let me try. T Mobile is the best place to get iPhone 17 Pro because they've got the best network. Nice.
- [85:35]
Joanna Hardy
Jeffrey, you heard them.
- [85:36]
Dan Harris
T Mobile is the best place to.
- [85:38]
Joanna Hardy
Get the new iPhone 17 Pro on us with eligible trade in in any condition.
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Dan Harris
So what are we having for launch?
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Joanna Hardy
Dude, my work here is done with.
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Dan Harris
24 month bill credits on Experience beyond.
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Joanna Hardy
For well qualified customers plus tax and.
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Dan Harris
$35 device connection charge credits ended balance due if you pay off earlier canceled finance agreement.
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Joanna Hardy
IPhone 17 Pro 256 gigs 1,099 99 and new line minimum $100 plus a.
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Dan Harris
Month plan with auto pay plus taxes and fees required.
- [85:59]
Joanna Hardy
Best mobile network in the US based on analysis by Ooklove speed test intelligence data 1H 2025 visit t mobile.com.