Podcast Summary: "Is There Such a Thing as Healthy Shame and Embarrassment? | JoAnna Hardy"

Podcast: 10% Happier with Dan Harris
Date: October 15, 2025
Host: Dan Harris
Guest: JoAnna Hardy

Overview

This episode explores the Buddhist approach to ethics ("sila"), what it really means to live an ethical life without moralizing or guilt-tripping, and the provocative notion of "healthy shame" and "healthy embarrassment" as potential forces for growth. Dan Harris sits down with Buddhist teacher JoAnna Hardy, who brings both practical wisdom and a refreshingly real, open perspective on her own ethical struggles – past and present. Together, they unpack why ethics in Buddhism isn’t about finger-wagging but about enlightened self-interest, and how the “bliss of blamelessness” creates a foundation for a happier, calmer mind.

Key Topics & Discussion Points

1. What is Sila? (Ethics in Buddhism)

• [07:08] Dan: Initiates discussion about the meaning of sila (pronounced “see-la”), the Pali word for ethics or virtuous conduct.
• [07:12] JoAnna: "Simply translated, [sila is] ethics, or the way we show up, behave through our speech and action in the world. It's a Buddhist concept. [...] There’s so much permission, but the permission was also to check it out, see the ick factor for yourself, like see what actually hurts."
• Sila is presented not as commandments but as aspirational guidelines fostering self-reflection.

2. The Eightfold Path and the Three Pillars of Practice

• [07:33] JoAnna: Explains the Eightfold Path: Wisdom (Panya), Meditation (Samadhi), and Ethics (Sila), and how all three support each other.
• [10:02] Dan: "It's basically a recipe cookbook for getting enlightened."
• Sila, Samadhi, and Panya are described as three strands of a braid—inseparable and mutually reinforcing.

3. Ethics Isn’t About Judgment—It’s About Self-Reflection

• [11:53] JoAnna: "My biggest turn on about Buddhism in general and the precepts specifically is it wasn’t a dictate, you know, it wasn't a command. There's not a lot of judgment or criticism in it."
• Dan and JoAnna emphasize how the Buddhist approach invites experimentation, not blind obedience: "fuck around and find out" ([11:53]; JoAnna).

The Three Aspects of Ethical Conduct

1. Speech ([22:00])

• [22:08] JoAnna: "Speech mostly: is it true? [...] Is it useful? Is it kind?"
• The five key evaluators for wise speech:
  • Is it true?
  • Is it kind?
  • Is it timely?
  • Is it useful?
  • Is it necessary?
• [26:01] Dan: Introduces "sampapalapa" (idle chatter)—filling airtime out of nervousness or ego.
  • Quote: "When you notice yourself doing that, it's a good wake up call. Like, all right, check it out. Why am I doing this? And often he [Joseph Goldstein] says, if you dig, you'll see the impulse is, here I am, look at me, right?" ([26:12])

2. Action ([28:18])

• [28:33] JoAnna: Action is where the five precepts (ethical guidelines) live: "killing, stealing, speech, sexuality, and intoxicants."
• These precepts are less about prohibition (“you must not”) and more about intentional, reflective living.

3. Livelihood ([54:11])

• [54:11] JoAnna: "Anything where you deal in meat, like harming animals, arms, so firearms, alcohol, like all the things that would have you breaking these precepts [...] And then, what would wise livelihood be? Well, what we do, right? Spreading the dharma, talking about how people can live better, reflection, contemplation."

The Five Precepts (Action) – Deep Dive

1. Not Killing ([29:29])

• Goes beyond literal homicide: reflects on veganism, kindness to animals, intentions, and cultural context.
• "There’s this wholesomeness to it." (JoAnna, [30:13])
• Nuanced approaches (e.g., removing household pests) explored.

2. Not Stealing ([36:06])

• Often worded as not taking what isn’t freely given.
• [36:06] JoAnna: "Anything that someone didn’t say to you, you could, you shouldn’t take."
• Extends to time, attention, climate impacts, even borrowing a t-shirt without asking.
• [39:27] Dan: Links to speech: "If you are interrupting somebody [...] If you are taking all the attention in a conversation or in a social setting, that could be a second precept issue to explore."

3. Wise Speech ([40:20])

• Revisiting the aforementioned criteria—truth, kindness, necessity.
• Joseph Goldstein's story: giving up gossip took away 90% of speech, leading to self-discovery ([41:39]).

4. Sexuality ([41:39])

• [41:40] JoAnna: "That’s not causing harm through our sexuality."
• Much more spacious and pragmatic than Western religious codes.
• Consent, non-coercion, and avoiding exploitation are central.
• Contemporary applications (monogamy, polyamory, kink) discussed.
• Memorable Moment: "One of the precepts for the monastics [...] was to not have sex with a melon." (JoAnna, [41:40]) – light-hearted, but shows precepts as responses to real-life issues.

5. Intoxicants to the Point of Heedlessness ([45:49])

• Varies by tradition and person: no universal "thou shalt not."
• Modern views encompass plant medicines, prescription drugs, and the possibility that some may benefit (or be harmed) by different substances.
• [46:38] JoAnna: "Do you have clarity of mind? Are you mindful? [...] Can you still be on the path?"

Healthy Shame and Embarrassment: Hiri and Otapa

(A Provocative Buddhist View): [63:08] – [78:37]

Introduction: Shame as a Growth Point

• [63:20] Dan: "In Buddhism, there’s this pair of concepts [...] hiri and otapa [...] referred to as moral shame and moral dread. And these are healthy things."
• Often mistranslated—really refers to internal and social conscience, the “inner ick” that guides ethical growth.
• [63:46] JoAnna: "We’re born into these bodies that has this natural desire [...] to want to please. Right. To want to get a positive response. [...]"

Hiri: Inner Moral Self-Respect

• [65:23] JoAnna: "But it’s that pre-knowing... Like, if we're just walking down the street [...] we don’t need anything bad to happen. We’re just interested in having a good day and we want everyone else to share in that good day."
• Hiri is that moment of realizing, "I wish I hadn’t said that." It's not self-hatred, it’s awareness.

Otapa: Healthy Embarrassment/Social Accountability

• Concerned with how our actions impact others—“would you want your Buddhist teacher to see you doing this?” ([69:21] Dan)
• Example: JoAnna’s road rage incident ([69:37]–[71:57]):
  • "In that moment, it was everything... The second I pull away, Otapa, right? I lost my hiri... it was more like release... and just that, like, oh, that was not my best me." (JoAnna)
• The discomfort after breaching a precept isn’t punishment, it’s healthy discomfort—motivating change.

Distinction from Unhealthy Shame/Guilt

• Unhealthy shame is self-involved; gets you stuck in a story of "I am bad." ([76:21] Dan)
• Healthy remorse acknowledges harm, takes responsibility, and lets you grow rather than wallow.
• "It’s the difference between self-awareness and self-involved." (JoAnna, [77:16])

Forgiveness as Ethical Practice ([78:37] – [81:45])

• Essential to break the cycle of rumination and self-aversion.
• JoAnna’s Forgiveness Formula:
  1. How I’ve caused harm to myself.
  2. How I’ve caused harm to someone else.
  3. How someone else has caused harm to me.
  • Each: “knowingly or unknowingly, out of my own confusion or delusion.”
• [80:13] JoAnna: "I actually couldn't do metta practice until I forgave myself for a lot of my earlier life harms and transgressions."

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• JoAnna, on the Buddhist ethos:
  "We’re using the term fuck around and find out right now. So in many ways that’s what it is. [...] See the constant mirroring in our relationships." ([11:53])

• Dan, on the Precepts:
  “It's like, hey, do you want to be happy? I recommend don't lie a lot...” ([18:32])

• JoAnna, about falling short:
  "Making mistakes—that is a part of the path? Absolutely. Well, I mean, it's part of being human." ([59:29])

• On tattoos as ethical reminders:

  • Dan: "FTBOAB on my wrist [For The Benefit Of All Beings] — It's a mindfulness pill." ([58:38])
  • JoAnna: "I have upekkha on my arm..." ([58:54])

• On healthy shame:
  "It's the difference between self-awareness and self-involved. Because again, it takes us out of the relational aspect..." (JoAnna, [77:16])

• Dan, summing up healthy remorse:
  "I'm not stuck, right, in what I sometimes call like a psychic constipation, [...] as opposed to thinking about what the harm might have been to somebody else." ([76:22])

Timestamps of Key Segments

• [07:08]: Defining Sila (ethics)
• [10:02]: The Eightfold Path explained; its “three buckets”
• [18:32]: The spirit of the precepts (“see for yourself”)
• [22:08]: Wise speech unpacked
• [28:33]: The five precepts within wise action
• [29:29]: Not killing—complexities and intention
• [36:06]: Not stealing—how far the principle can be taken
• [41:39]: Harm from sexuality—beyond mere transgression
• [45:49]: Intoxicants—heedlessness, intention, and modern nuance
• [54:11]: Wise livelihood—and navigating modern dilemmas
• [63:08]: Hiri & Otapa—“healthy shame” and “healthy embarrassment”
• [69:37]: JoAnna’s road rage story—living the theory in real life
• [78:37]: The role of forgiveness in ethical growth

For Further Learning

• JoAnna Hardy’s meditations and teachings: joannahardy.org
• Find her guided meditations at Apple Fitness+
• For live Q&As and more content, subscribe at danharris.com

Tone & Style

The conversation is candid, irreverent, and full of warmth and personal storytelling. Both Dan and JoAnna blend depth with humor (“sex with melons”; “fuck around and find out”; “would you want your teacher to see your grocery cart”), embodying the Buddhist encouragement to test ethical teachings in the laboratory of your own messy, human life.

In sum:
This episode is a practical, compassionate exploration of how Buddhist ethics offer a non-dogmatic, growth-oriented approach to living with integrity—one which acknowledges human imperfection, invites continual self-reflection, and leverages even our embarrassing moments for greater self-knowledge and happiness.