Joseph Goldstein (4:53)

My son does.

Dan Harris (4:54)

He still remembers when people give him that gift. So imagine my surprise and delight when I received in the mail a huge box filled with Pokemon trading cards, which I then of course gave to my son. It was one of those rare moments.

Joseph Goldstein (5:07)

Where he thought I was cool.

Dan Harris (5:08)

Why did I receive said box? Because they're sponsoring the show. Specifically, the Pokemon Trading card game is what I want to tell you about. It's a gift sure to delight gamers, collectors and Pokemon fans. Each Pokemon set has dozens of new cards in different styles by different artists, ranging from cute to stunning. You can learn to play in minutes. Enjoy the TCG and new cards for years to come. Find gift ideas for all ages and at every price point@tcg.pokemon.com holiday hey prime members, have you heard? You can listen to your favorite podcasts ad free.

Joseph Goldstein (5:46)

Good news.

Dan Harris (5:47)

With Amazon Music you can have access to the largest catalog of ad free top podcasts included with your prime membership. We are regular consumers around my house of Amazon Music.

Joseph Goldstein (5:58)

Often we're listening through our Alexa. My son has a very intimate relationship.

Dan Harris (6:03)

With his Alexa who he talks to all the time.

Joseph Goldstein (6:06)

He learns about amazing new music through.

Dan Harris (6:09)

Alexa and then shares it with his parents. To start listening to either music or podcasts, download the Amazon Music app for free or go to Amazon.com adfreepodcasts that's Amazon.com ad freepodcasts to catch up on the latest episodes without the ads.

Joseph Goldstein (6:33)

Thank you mates of state. Ladies and gentlemen, I want to start by saying some thank yous. I am genuinely grateful to all of you for coming out tonight, especially on a rainy night in New York City where the Bidens, Clintons and Obamas are fucking up traffic. I mean it. I'm really grateful to all of you for coming out. I also want to thank our sponsors from Audible. They've been huge supporters of the 10% Happier podcast. Go listen to their books and our nonprofit partner for the evening, the New York Insight Meditation Center. I'll have more to say about that. All right. That people clapping for NYIMC are clearly not silent meditators. I will admit right from the jump here that generally speaking, to my knowledge, people don't celebrate the 10th anniversaries of books. I am just using this as an excuse to throw a party. The backstory here is that my wife Bianca and I were out to dinner with our old friends Corey and Jason a few months ago and somebody had the idea of us doing a show together. Corey, you were saying you think it's Bianca who had the idea?

Mark Epstein (7:42)

It was either Bianca or myself. So it was the women. Just so you know.

Joseph Goldstein (7:46)

Right. Although that could be your attempt at plausible deniability if this thing goes down the tubes. Right? She's covering her bases. So the idea was that we do it like a late night show. I would be the host. This would be the band. I've always wanted to host a late night show. Although tonight might drive a stake through the heart of that dream. It is totally an experiment. I have no idea how it's going to go, but I appreciate you buckling up and taking the ride with us. You can think of it as a late night show with a little bit of a deeper mission. I think most of us, if we do any personal growth, self development, spiritual work, we do it by ourselves. You know, we meditate in silence alone. We go to the shrink alone and talk about ourselves. And actually, I think all of that is great, but it is to overlook a key part of the Buddhist platform. And this is also a key part of many spiritual traditions, which is that all of this work can be supercharged by doing it with other people. And so we wanted to put together an event that was a little noisier and more communal than your average meditation sesh. As I said before, I know that this whole 10th anniversary thing is a concoction, a confection, but now that I'm in it, it has caused me to reflect a little bit on the last 10 years. What a weird trip this has been. If you had told me 15, 20 years ago that I was going to become what I am now, which is a traveling evangelist for meditation, I would have coughed my beer up through my nose. This was not in the plan. I was a very hard charging, super ambitious, super skeptical network newsman. I was raised in the People's Republic of Massachusetts by two atheist scientists. The only entry on my spiritual resume was bar mitzvah, but I did that for the money. So two things came along and changed my attitude and really changed my life. The first insight was that we all have a voice in our heads, by which I'm not referring to schizophrenia or hearing voices. I'm talking about your inner narrator that chases you out of bed in the morning and is yammering at you all day long and has you constantly wanting stuff, not wanting stuff, judging people, comparing yourself to other people, thinking about the past or thinking about the future to the detriment of whatever's happening right now. And when you're unaware of this nonstop conversation that you are having with yourself, and which, by the way, if we broadcast aloud, you would be locked up. When you're unaware of this nonstop nattering, it owns you. There's a reason. The first line of my book, there's a reason why it is the voice in my head is an asshole, because the results are often not pretty. The second insight, though, is that there is good news. That this situation, the human situation, is workable. It's tractable, it's manageable. Meditation is an ancient, time tested and now scientifically validated way to create a new relationship with the voice in your head so that you're not owned by every neurotic obsession that flits through your head and so that you can respond wisely to stuff instead of reacting blindly. I am definitely not a meditation fundamentalist. I mean, on the 10% Happier podcast, we talk about all kinds of modalities. Therapy, medication, vacation, napping, exercise. There are many ways to go at this, but the punchline is that happiness is not an unalterable factory setting. It's actually a skill. To be clear, perfection is not on offer. If my wife were here, she would. Well, she is here, but she doesn't have the mic. But if she did have the mic, she would give you her 90% still a moron speech. My little brother has argued that the real title of my book should be From Deeply Flawed to Merely Flawed. So perfection is not on offer. But change is doable, and it is more fun when you do it with other people. So that is our thesis tonight. We have a great show for you tonight. We've got great guests for you. Dr. Mark Epstein, the Buddhist psychiatrist, is here. Yes, a guy named Joseph Goldstein is here. We also have a very special surprise guest coming at the end. And of course, my old friends, mates of state. Time for our first guest. Let me get up and bring that screen back down because I want to show you a little video to tee up our first guest, who is Joseph Goldstein. Joseph Goldstein. For those of you who are unfamiliar with him, he is the co founder of the Insight Meditation Society, which is in Barrie, Massachusetts, which was founded by Joseph and two other hippies in the 1970s and has become this legendary place where many, if not most, of the great meditation teachers operating today, at least in the Theravada tradition, were trained. Joseph has also written many books, including a book called One Dharma and another book called Mindfulness. He is a huge figure in my own life. He's been a great friend and teacher, and we have made a lot of content together over on the 10% Happier app and also on the 10% Happier podcast. And one of the things we have in common is if we like somebody, we like to make fun of them a lot. In that spirit, I have a clip here of a little moment that was captured while Joseph and I were filming a course. Let's take a look.

Corey Gardner (13:05)

Okay, I just have one professional question. Just from your perspective, from my perception, when Dan talks, you sit a lot stiller than I do. I feel like I'm kind of moving around a lot. Do you either notice it or doesn't.

Joseph Goldstein (13:24)

It matter story you're telling yourself what I call that moment when the student becomes the master. Ladies and gentlemen, Joseph Goldstein. Walk around. I know you're coming up on your 80th birthday, so I did bring you earplugs for the Band. If you want them, they're right here for you, buddy. So you just finished a three month solo silent meditation retreat.

Corey Gardner (14:12)

I want to go back.

Joseph Goldstein (14:15)

Is there something about this moment that is making you want to go back? What? I mean, because I think a lot of people would hear that and think that sounds like torture. I mean, literally, solitary confinement is torture. So why is it something that you do every year and that even as we sit here now, it's something you want to go back to?

Corey Gardner (14:32)

You know, these retreats, these silent retreats for whatever length, it's like being in the laboratory of your mind, you know, and it's just a chance to explore and see every part of yourself. I think there was a Japanese poet, a woman named Izumi. Don't remember the whole poem, but the last line, I knew myself completely, no part left out. And that's what happens on a retreat, especially in solitude or in a group, but in silence. You get to see every part of your mind, the great parts and the difficult parts. And to use a Dan phrase, in that process, you get to be behind the waterfall. So instead of the water coming down on top of your head, have enough perspective and enough space to really see what's going on and to see what patterns cause suffering in our lives and what patterns bring about happiness. And on retreat, you see everything. You know, so often people come up and ask me, well, how was your retreat? Every year the answer is the same. It's everything you know, because you just get to see no part left out. And that's what's so fascinating, as you say, I've been doing this for so many years and equally fascinated now as I was in the beginning, you know, of just watching my mind and seeing where I get caught and seeing how to unhook. You know, a lot of the practice, there are kind of a few tracks to it. So one track is just developing some basic stillness, some basic concentration, which you need so you're not simply caught up all the time. And then you can get into the flow of things changing very rapidly. And that helps the mind really let go. But in some way, and I find this on retreat a lot. The aspect that for me, in a way is the most interesting is when on retreat and off, but on retreat, it's very vivid, is when there is some kind of suffering in the mind. Something's going on either just internally or because of something that's happening in my life outside there's some kind of suffering or heaviness or being caught. And I actually love that there's a phrase that I've been using and teaching lately. Don't waste your suffering, you know, because we all. I'll share with you, most of you probably know, you know, somewhat familiar with the Buddhist teachings and the first noble truth is the truth. The Pali word is dukkha and it's usually translated as suffering. But it can be any difficulty or challenge. So I came across this was, it was actually online, I read someplace, I can't remember who said it, but it was a definition of dukkha which I completely resonated with. And I think each one of you will resonate with this because it seems to me universally true. The inevitability of unwanted experiences. I mean, is there anybody that goes through life free of unwanted experiences? I don't think so. So these come up, you know, on retreat. It becomes very vivid. So for me, when unwanted experiences are coming up, I get so interested in understanding what's going on in my own mind that's creating suffering around it, you know, so that investigation, it's tremendous, it's tremendously interesting. And in a very practical way, we learn how to free ourselves from that difficulty in the mind.

Joseph Goldstein (18:44)

So don't waste your suffering means these are moments where you can learn about what your habitual patterns are and start to untangle them.

Corey Gardner (18:52)

Absolutely, yeah. Because often when we're suffering in one way or another, often we either feel sorry for ourselves or kind of drowning in it, obsessing about it, or blaming others for it or the situation for it. But it takes a special kind of interest to realize that we're responsible. We're 100% responsible for whether our mind is suffering in the face of unwanted experiences. So unwanted experiences are going to happen. The body gets old, it gets sick. There's all kinds of situations in our lives, relationships and in the world. So these unwanted experiences are gonna happen. But whether we suffer as that's happening, that's totally up to us.

Joseph Goldstein (19:44)

So on a very basic level, for those of us who are not gonna do three month retreats, why not?

Corey Gardner (19:53)

Dan.

Joseph Goldstein (19:56)

I have brought this up before and it was not warmly received. For those of us who are not yet going to do three month retreats, how does one not suffer in the face of unwanted experience?

Corey Gardner (20:14)

Okay, so I'll give you just from this last retreat. At the beginning of the retreat, I was dealing with a complicated health issue, which is all fine now, so it's all resolved. But at that time it was very confusing, you know, I didn't quite know what the way forward was, and I was thinking about the consequences and how it was going to affect my life. So I really was beginning to weigh my mind down. You know, it was heavy and then it was almost miraculous. But quite spontaneously, at a certain point of feeling really down and heavy with it all, my mind just changed, switched channels. So instead of kind of obsessing about what was going on in my body and what I need to do about it, it switched to the gratitude channel. And I just thought, I said, Joseph, you have so many great things happening in your life. There are so many blessings in your life. And so I started focusing on all of that. And it was amazing just in that simple switch, you know, from fear and distress and confusion to just gratitude. And sometimes I wonder in sharing that or talking about it with people, because it's something I think we've all heard and it can almost sound like a Hallmark card, you know, be grateful for what you have. But the real feeling of it is really profound because it takes us out of a self obsession. And so, as you know, and probably many of you also, when we do the loving kindness meditation, the cause or the condition for loving kindness to arise is when we emphasize the good qualities in other people rather than focus on their faults, which makes a lot of sense. When we think of the good qualities, we have loving feelings. Well, this is kind of having metaphor for oneself. Instead of focusing on what was wrong or difficult to all of a sudden focus on what was good, it just enlarged the perspective. It's like my mind got bigger and more expansive and then it extended so naturally to metta and compassion for other people, you know, when I started thinking about other people in similar situations. So it just led to these wonderfully beautiful and wholesome and expansive mind states. So that's what's possible. Like when we're really investigating and interested, okay, what's going on in my mind and how am I caught and how can I open?

Joseph Goldstein (23:19)

Is that a move you think the rest of us in our non retreat.

Corey Gardner (23:22)

Lives can make without any doubt at all? Well, why not? So I'll just share with you, I mean, something that comes up for me a lot just in my ordinary life and sometimes just spontaneously, I'll just express. It may sound a little strange, but I'll just express to the universe, thank you for the blessings of my life. That's all. Something so simple, you know, but it's meaningful, you know, and when we can appreciate the many blessings in our lives and it's uplifting and then it gets, that uplifting feeling gets transferred to how we're Relating to other people. So it's all good. And you don't have to be on retreat to do that. It's just remembering to do it.

Joseph Goldstein (24:16)

Yes, remembering is the hardest part.

Corey Gardner (24:19)

Yeah, yeah.

Joseph Goldstein (24:20)

That's the purpose of evenings like this.

Corey Gardner (24:22)

Yes. And also the purpose of retreat because he's always trying to get out of this.

Joseph Goldstein (24:33)

I have 10 days coming up with you. I'm already dreading it. But then you go, for me, I have so much resistance to the slowing down. The analogy I use is plane that has lost its landing gear hitting a foamed Runway. It's just like, I'm going fast, fast, fast, fast. And just boom. And it's three or four days of completely being befogged. But then amazing things can happen.

Corey Gardner (25:03)

Okay, I have a solution for the first few days. I have a solution for almost anything. They don't always work. And this kind of relates to being on retreat, off retreat also. And those of you who have been on retreat, I think will recognize this. Generally we put our, you know, there's sitting meditation, there's walking meditation, and then there's paying attention to everything else. And generally people put a hierarchy on that. You know, the sitting's the real deal. Yeah, walking is good, but it's kind of a recess between sittings and then everything else we try to do as best we can. What I found, I found the walking to be almost more insightful than the sitting and generally on retreat. As you know, we in the past particularly have emphasized this really slow walking. So that can be jarring. I mean, if you're coming from a fast paced life, and then lift, move twice, you know, it's the zombie walk that's challenging. But I was playing with a few different ways of walking in this retreat. That's really fun.

Joseph Goldstein (26:26)

You see what I'm dealing with?

Corey Gardner (26:30)

So first, it's not necessarily slow walking. It's just walking at a normal speed. And so the first frame, instead of focusing on the feet or the legs moving, the frame becomes just being aware of walking through space. And so one's mind actually becomes a space, you know, and so you're just walking in space. And that's very opening and relaxing and easeful. You know, there's no trying. You're just walking at a more or less normal pace, but with that frame. So that's the first of three exercises. The second one actually came from my very unsuccessful attempts to learn about lucid dreaming, which always interested me, but no success. However, I read a few books and one of the exercises was to go through the Day and just ask, am I dreaming? So I started doing that in the walking. So first it's walking through space, and then you're walking back and forth, walking in a dream. It's really interesting what happens. It changes the perspective because it takes us out of being so identified with the body and trying to narrow our focus on the body. It's no, the focus becomes the dream that the body is walking through. So it's a really interesting space. And then the third one follows on that is just walking back and forth. And to have the frame, I'm walking through the mind. And so the mind or awareness becomes the main focus in a way. And it's just the body walking through the field of awareness. It really kind of gives a sense or a doorway to understanding selflessness because we're no longer so contracted in the identification with the body. And these are really simple things. You don't have to be on retreat to do this. So just one last thing. Everything becomes an hour Dharma talk. But there's more to the program, so.

Joseph Goldstein (29:09)

Get it in now.

Corey Gardner (29:13)

One of the reasons that I think practicing formal walking meditation in whatever way one does it, and I've just seen this so clearly in my own life, just from doing it so much, being aware of the body in movement, in walking, just becomes the default. It becomes the habit of mind from having done the formal walking meditation practice. So even now, being in New York, you know, busy, lots of things going on, we can be walking down the street, being aware, being open to all the sounds and sights, whatever, but being grounded in the movement of the body naturally, not with any particular effort, which comes from having done the walking practice. So I think there are lots of very pragmatic applications of retreat practice to life in the world.

Joseph Goldstein (30:07)

Yes. Just to clear up the behind the waterfall. The second statement, the behind the waterfall thing is actually Jon Kabat Zinn. But the idea is that, say if you're walking through the streets of Manhattan or you're just doing formal walking meditation, where you're trying to bring your full attention to some sensation in the body, and then every time you get distracted, you start again and again and again. The seeing of the distraction, which a lot of people think is the moment of failure, actually the moment of success, because you get familiar with the way the mind works and that familiarity where you're dropping out of the stories and seeing them with some non judgmental remove, that is to watch a waterfall from the rock face, from the crevice and the rock face behind all of the water. So you're not so caught up in it. And what you're saying is we could do that walking down the street in Manhattan, tuning into the sensations of our body, no three month retreat required. And then every time we get distracted.

Corey Gardner (31:07)

Suggested but not required.

Joseph Goldstein (31:09)

Exactly. Suggested more strongly to some people.

Dan Harris (31:14)

Every.

Joseph Goldstein (31:14)

Time we get distracted, pat ourselves in the back. Oh, wow, I'm noticing the distraction. And gradually over time, the swirling stories have less power over us.

Corey Gardner (31:25)

Yeah.

Joseph Goldstein (31:26)

Okay, so let me ask you a very practical question before I move on to the next segment here, which is after nearly 60 years of meditation, how worked up do you get by things like I'm thinking specifically of politics tonight. We have four one current president and three ex presidents in town. Three Democrats doing a fundraiser for Biden and then Trump dealing with some criminal lawsuit or something like that out on Long Island. We're heading into or in the midst of what is going to be an increasingly difficult year with all this stuff. How does all of this scan for you, given your years of practice? Are you unbothered, unruffled?

Corey Gardner (32:07)

No, but I have playing with different ways of coming back to a place of ease with it. One is easier and one is harder. The easier way really is not so much from the meditation, except in terms of a kind of reflection in the mind. So I like to read a lot of history, so I read a lot of all different kinds. And I just find that putting a historical perspective, that this stuff has been going on for thousands of years, you know, worse and still going on, and just having a larger perspective really helps me not get so caught up into thinking, oh, this particular moment is disaster because it's just the waves of historical cycles and it just helps. And in the same vein, I don't know if you're familiar with Carl Sagan, his famous Blue Dot essay, you know, where he talks about seeing the earth from space just as this tiny blue dot. And he describes it just beautifully. And everything that we're so worked up about from that perspective, it doesn't mean much. So it's enlarging perspective in the same way that I was talking about gratitude. It enlarges the perspective, the thing that's more difficult. But I remind myself to do it with certain of the candidates. I can really go to a place of compassion at times when I think of the suffering that's in his mind and the consequences, the karmic consequences of all the unskillful things that he does out of ignorance. I mean, it's total delusion and ignorance behind everything that's being done. So when I focus on what he's doing. I can get really upset. This is a being in a lot of suffering, creating a lot of suffering future for himself and he's completely unaware. And so when I get that frame, I can actually feel some compassion, you know, for him because it's like walking blindly over a cliff. So I think there are ways of dealing with it and you know, we will all find our own ways, but those are some of the things that have helped me.

Joseph Goldstein (34:54)

Mine is all caps, Twitter rants. Corey, you're listening to this and are you thinking, I'm gonna go on a three month retreat? What's your. What's your take?

Mark Epstein (35:08)

No, but I was wondering if you could spend a weekend with my 19 year old daughter.

Corey Gardner (35:13)

Yes.

Mark Epstein (35:15)

I mean, I don't know if I could do even a 10 day retreat, but I totally resonate with the. I mean really, the first thing you were talking about is gratitude. Right. I feel like as a mom, I feel like that's one of the lessons I like want to teach my kids throughout their life, but I don't think they hear me. So maybe they just need to meditate and go on a three month retreat and they'll get it too.

Corey Gardner (35:40)

Well, first I have a feeling it's less about what you say and more about how you are.

Mark Epstein (35:48)

I need to have more gratitude, probably.

Corey Gardner (35:50)

No. Or appreciate that you do.

Mark Epstein (35:52)

Yeah.

Corey Gardner (35:53)

Because I think kids pick up how we are.

Mark Epstein (35:55)

Yeah, that's a good point.

Corey Gardner (35:57)

We often miss their moments of gratitude.

Jason Hamill (36:00)

Too, because we're looking to correct.

Corey Gardner (36:02)

You know, we're always like, oh, you.

Joseph Goldstein (36:04)

Know, you should be gratitude here.

Jason Hamill (36:05)

And sometimes they are.

Corey Gardner (36:06)

We're just missing it because we're looking.

Joseph Goldstein (36:08)

For the correction, Jace, when you, you and I have been meditating for roughly the same period of time. When you hear about a three month retreat, is any part of you like thinking, that sounds baller, I want to do it or.

Jason Hamill (36:19)

Yeah, it does actually.

Mark Epstein (36:21)

Yeah, he's not going.

Joseph Goldstein (36:24)

I feel like you're also speaking for another blonde backstage right now. She's back there like, she's like, don't let him convince us.

Mark Epstein (36:34)

Can I say one more thing too? I want to say I really liked what you're talking about, the walking part of it. Because one conversation we've been having a lot about meditation is that I don't really have a meditation practice, but I feel I meditate when I'm making art, making like playing music. And for you to say the walking thing, I feel like that's how I feel about, you know, when I'm lost in this. You know, I'm just with my thoughts, not really thinking about what I'm playing sometimes, you know, how do you feel? Is that. Is that meditation?

Corey Gardner (37:09)

Meditation is a word that covers a wide range of practices. So I would say it's meditative, but it can be a very meditative space. So in recent years, I've started writing poetry just in the last few years, and I love it. The space out of which that comes feels very meditative. This may motivate you to do a retreat. What I found is that the deepest in my experience, the deepest creative expression comes out of the silence of mind, not out of the thinking mind. And so the quieter of the mind is. So sometimes, for example, I will do a writing retreat where I'll sit and then write and sit and write.

Mark Epstein (38:07)

I would like that.

Corey Gardner (38:08)

Yeah. And it's beautiful. It's a beautiful. So that could be a way. And it does have.

Mark Epstein (38:13)

So you can write. You can write on the silent retreat.

Corey Gardner (38:15)

Well, I'm the boss, if that's the intention. I mean, generally in the retreats that we teach, we discourage people from writing because that's not what that retreat is about. But one could set up a writing retreat like that. And I love it. So there are lots of ways of entering into this.

Mark Epstein (38:46)

I would like that.

Corey Gardner (38:47)

Yeah. Okay, let's do a writing retreat together.

Joseph Goldstein (38:49)

Okay, I'll do it. I'll do it.

Corey Gardner (38:51)

Is that what I just say?

Dan Harris (38:57)

Coming up, we welcome Dr. Mark Epstein to the stage. We talk about how he came to Buddhism 50 years ago, the relationship between Buddhism and psychotherapy. And we talk about the two levels of reality. This episode is brought to you by Hill's Pet Nutrition. Every shelter pet deserves a second chance. And you are making it possible that for thousands of them every day. Because when you feed your pet Hills, you help feed a shelter pet, which helps make them healthy, happy, and more adoptable. I am a huge, unrelenting, unreconstructed fan of adopting shelter pets. We've got three shelter cats marauding around our home. And actually, my friend and former colleague with Johnson was here the other day. He's an anchorman at ABC News, but he's got a side hustle.

Joseph Goldstein (39:51)

It's not really a hustle.

Dan Harris (39:52)

It's a volunteer gig on the side where he fosters puppies. And he brought a puppy here the other day to our house, and we almost adopted that puppy, but pudding, that was the dog's name, went to somebody else. Anyway, I think it's really cool that Hill's pet nutrition supports animal shelters by feeding shelter pets. Hills has provided more than $300 million in pet food to more than 1,000 shelters. Over 14 million shelter pets fed and adopted science did that. Visit hillspet.com podcast to learn more. This podcast is sponsored by Greenlight. We all know the old saying, give a man a fish, he eats for a day. Teach a man to fish, he eats for life. This advice isn't just for folks who fish. It's a lesson for parents who want their kids to learn important skills that will set them up for success. And as we enter the gifting season, now is the perfect time to give your kids money skills that last well beyond the holidays. And that is where Greenlight comes in. Greenlight is a debit card and money app made for families. Parents can send money to their kids and keep an eye on their kids spending and saving while kids and teens build money, confidence and lifelong financial literacy skills. Now is a great time to get started with Greenlight because it can help your family get set up right before the New Year. I also want to say I've been doing a lot of research lately into what makes a habit stick, and there's a ton of evidence behind something called the Fresh Start Effect. So starting Greenlight with your family around the New year might really superpower it. And you can sign up for greenlight today@greenlight.com Harris that's greenlight.com Harris to try greenlight today greenlight.com Harris lots cooking over at danharris.com including live guided meditations and Ask Me Anything sessions. Would love to have you over there. Meanwhile, over on the Happier app, they're offering 40% off the yearly subscription now through December 6th. Go to happierapp.com 40.

Joseph Goldstein (41:58)

All right, time for our next guest. Let me say a few words about him before I bring him out here. His name is Dr. Mark Epstein. He is a psychiatrist who lives and works in the New York City area and sometimes works from slightly north of here. He has written a whole series of beautiful books about the overlap between psychotherapy and Buddhism. And one of the books is called the Trauma of Everyday Life. Another is called Going to Without Falling Apart. And that second book was given to me in 2008 by my wife Bianca, who had heard me yammer on often with very low levels of cogency about stuff I was hearing in the self help world. I was frustrated by it but also interested in it. And she said it reminded me this is her talking. This reminds me of a book I read many years ago. Here's the book. And when I read that book, it was really my first exposure to Buddhism and I was fascinated. And I called Mark and basically begged him to be my friend. And for some reason he agreed. And we are still very close to this day. So. Ladies and gentlemen, Dr. Mark Epstein. Why not? Hi.

Jason Hamill (43:24)

Hi, Dan.

Joseph Goldstein (43:25)

So you've written these beautiful books that wrestle with these two great traditions, psychotherapy and Buddhism, just from a very basic level for those who might be new to your work, why do you think these two modalities work so well together?

Jason Hamill (43:42)

Well, they were the only two modalities that were available to me.

Joseph Goldstein (43:47)

That's not a ringing endorsement.

Jason Hamill (43:49)

Well, we once had a conference, 20 years ago or so, Buddhism and Psychotherapy Conference that RD Lang came to and so on. And my friend was there and he said, what's the similarity between Buddhism and psychoanalysis? Two things that don't work. But for me they both have really helped me. I found Buddhism first. This might be the 10 year anniversary of your book, but it's the 50 year anniversary of when I first met Joseph. And so whenever he sees me, he thinks I'm still 20 years old and he was like an old guy. So I found Buddhism first after some sort of aborted attempts to get some psychotherapy help at the health services at the college and so on, that I remember the guy said, oh, you're suffering from an Oedipus complex. But I didn't really know what that meant. So, okay, my condition had a name. But then I met Joseph and Jack and Sharon and Ram Dass all in one sort of lump. And they gave me an experience, you know, like an experience of my uncomfortable self, which made me slightly less uncomfortable. I have always felt very grateful that I got the Buddhism first because then when I some years later when I was trying to figure out what to do with myself and decided to become a therapist and psychiatrist, everything I learned Western, I was processing through the Buddhist lens, you know, and they're both to try to really answer your question. They're both about working with the untrained mind, you know, with the shame, with the aversion, with the embarrassment, you know, what you call the monkey mind and you know, the neurotic mind. They're both attempts to work with the neurotic mind and they both have something to offer, so. And they've never really been in contact before, you know, before our time. So I was just lucky enough to come up at this moment and to try to make sense of it for myself. All those books came out of me trying to figure out, you know, is the ego good or bad? Is emptiness the right thing or the wrong thing? You know, I needed to puzzle it all out for myself.

Joseph Goldstein (46:24)

What is the. On a very basic level, what would you say the mechanism is by which these two modalities Supercharge 1 another? Maybe that's overstating it, but I'm just guessing here in my amateurish language. But meditation helps us generate mindfulness, which is a kind of self awareness. So we're not so caught up in our thoughts. In therapy we're actually dealing with the substance of the stories. But the self awareness might help us see more clearly what the stories are and not take them more seriously. So seriously.

Jason Hamill (46:55)

I don't think about it so much as the process versus story. I think about it as meditation is intrapersonal, something that you're doing with your own mind. As Joseph was talking earlier, I was listening in. And psychotherapy is interpersonal. So I think it's much more about the relationship than it is about processing whatever it is that we're doing in psychotherapy. I think it's more the relationship than the content of the individual story. And I think it's an opportunity to apply in a relational way what we learn intra psychically in meditation. So how to apply that same kind of awareness to a conversation that involves emotional material. So I think the emotional is more, maybe more in the forefront in the psychotherapy world. Although there's a lot of emotion in.

Joseph Goldstein (47:55)

A three month retreat or in a three minute sit.

Jason Hamill (47:59)

Yeah, yeah.

Joseph Goldstein (48:02)

Are you saying, and I apologize if I'm being obtuse here, but are you saying that the, the value of therapy isn't so much what you might come to understand about your emotions or stories, but in the relationship you develop with the therapist?

Jason Hamill (48:15)

I think that must be what I'm saying. I think it's like a playground, the way Joseph was talking about the playground of the mind in meditation. Psychotherapy is really a playground of the relationship because it's such a weird thing that even exists in our culture that two people would sit together with no idea what's going to happen between them or what they're going to talk about. But that what comes up and what gets enacted in the relationship is informational. So you get to see your own patterns in action. And if the therapist is decent, then he or she can point out stuff that you might not be aware of even while you're doing it. So there's a little. There's another. It's not just your own knowing mind watching yourself. There's another knowing mind watching yourself. One of my two main therapists used to pay very, very close attention to the language that his patients would use. So me in particular, if I would say something like talking about a friend or whatever, I really like her, you know, he would say, what don't you like about her? Or he would say, say that again, but drop the word. Really. Putting in that qualifier that I wasn't really aware that I was using was signaling to him some ambivalence in my presumed story. And I would do that really thing a lot in the book you read. I told that story. I think of in talking with him. I would sometimes stare at him to sort of drive home the contact that I so value, that I think I had learned from being with Ram Dass, who. Ram Dass would do this thing when you came in to see him, where he would just sit meditatively and stare at you and wouldn't say anything until you couldn't stand it anymore. So I. So I think I was doing some sort of pseudo spiritual, staring at this at my therapist who's smoking a little cigar. And finally he would say, blink. And in doing that, he was making me aware of a kind of clinging that I could do to the closeness that I so value, but I was overdoing it. And thereby, if you stare at someone, you actually lose cons with them. Real intimacy involves being together and then coming apart, you know, And I would be more uncomfortable with the coming apart part. Just a different laboratory, the therapy one.

Joseph Goldstein (50:56)

It seems like the common denominator is in meditation, in those brief moments where you can see whatever's happening in your head or in your body without clinging to it. That is a very healing posture. And what you're saying is you can summon that for yourself, and it could be summoned externally by your therapist, and both can help you live with a little bit more suppleness.

Jason Hamill (51:22)

Well, I think what I'm saying is the main thing that we're looking for in meditation is the clinging. It's only by finding the clinging that you can release the clinging. Otherwise, it's happening unconsciously.

Joseph Goldstein (51:35)

This is, don't waste your suffering.

Jason Hamill (51:36)

Or. Yeah, and in therapy, the main thing I'm looking for is, where's the clinging in whoever it is I'm talking to? Because we don't. Once we're made aware of the clinging, it feels better to release it, even if it's only for an instant. And you can make that palpable in therapy for somebody sometimes, you know, so the other way to talk about it is not just that we're looking for the clinging, but we're looking for the self. Because you can't really understand selflessness until you found the self as it actually appears in your own experience. So people in therapy make very clear who they think their self is. The she hurt my feelings. He hurt my feelings. I'm hurt. There's the self. Okay, show me that self.

Joseph Goldstein (52:29)

Joseph used the term selflessness earlier, and I gave him a pass on it. And now you're using it. And so I suspect some people here are like, what does that mean?

Jason Hamill (52:40)

I only use the term self.

Joseph Goldstein (52:42)

No, you said selflessness.

Jason Hamill (52:43)

You look for the self in order to understand selflessness.

Joseph Goldstein (52:46)

There you go again.

Jason Hamill (52:47)

Yeah, yeah. The self doesn't exist in the way we imagine it. That's selflessness. Or like Ram Dass used to say, you're not who you think you are. Which I always found very helpful.

Joseph Goldstein (53:03)

Yes. Another quote you like to use a lot is something that an elderly Mongolian monk said to Robert Thurman, another great local Buddhist guy. You think you're real. You are real.

Jason Hamill (53:17)

It's not that you're not really real. Yeah. It's not that you're not real. Of course you're real. But you think you're really real. So it's in the really real. That's what we're trying to catch.

Joseph Goldstein (53:30)

Joseph, what's your view on therapy?

Corey Gardner (53:32)

Well, as Mark was describing it, I really. It's very similar to what we do in meditation interviews.

Jason Hamill (53:40)

Yeah.

Corey Gardner (53:41)

You know, people. It's just a shorter session.

Jason Hamill (53:43)

Yeah. Like five minutes.

Corey Gardner (53:44)

Yeah. But remuneration is prorated. But it is. People come in and really what I'm trying to tune into. Okay, where is the clinging? Exactly. So I think of these meditation interviews on retreats, and this suits me perfectly as 10 minute marriages. So it's perfect. 10 minutes. Really intimate, getting right to the essence. So long. But it sounded very similar to me in what you said.

Joseph Goldstein (54:25)

You're who I learned from Joseph's referencing meditation interviews. So if you go on a retreat, you get a tiny sliver of time with the teacher to complain about your practice, and they're supposed to help you with it. And I remember one time where I was complaining about something to Joseph and you very compassionately said, that's just you being stupid. And if you deny it, I actually have audio tape in the video game.

Corey Gardner (54:53)

I think that was one of my finer moments.

Joseph Goldstein (54:58)

What about therapy for yourself? Is this something you've gone and done?

Corey Gardner (55:03)

Okay, I have spent in my 40s. I did a few years of Jungian therapy and it was a lot of dream work. It was really interesting and I ended it. Not that everything was resolved, but I came to the place in my mind where I really came to an acceptance of all my neuroses. And as soon as I stopped fighting with it and then I felt done. I didn't know if I was really done.

Joseph Goldstein (55:33)

If he was your patient, would you have considered him done?

Jason Hamill (55:36)

I have a great deal of trouble.

Joseph Goldstein (55:38)

Letting people go, wait, I'm finding the clinging.

Jason Hamill (55:43)

Yeah, click the link. So I would have wanted to keep him coming just because I'm more into marriage than you.

Joseph Goldstein (55:53)

But. So is there a view in Buddhist circles that do some folks deep in the Dharma look down on therapy? Because it is really engaging often with the stories of the mind rather than looking at the process of how the mind works.

Corey Gardner (56:11)

I'll go out on a limb here a bit. I think it all depends on the therapist. If it's a really skilled therapist, I think they're really in alignment. But not every therapist is a good therapist and not necessarily disentangling from the perspective Mark was talking about. So it just really depends. But as a modality, I think it has can have tremendous usefulness.

Jason Hamill (56:40)

In the early years of my practice, a few sort of prominent dharma teachers came to me for therapy sort of secretly, because I think there was a kind of feeling in their communities anyway that the Dharma was supposed to cure everything. And they knew they had either childhood stuff or depression, or they just knew they needed a different angle on it. And that was very moving for me and also affirming of what I was trying to do.

Joseph Goldstein (57:21)

Let me see if I can say a few hopefully cogent words about the selflessness thing. And you guys just correct me if I'm wrong. I don't want people to leave here too confused. Although maybe I'm just going to make it worse. In Buddhism, there's a lot of talk of two levels of reality. So there's relative reality or the relative truth and the ultimate truth. So on a relative level, we're all here at Symphony Space. This desk is a desk. You're you, I'm me. We all have to, like, put our pants on in the morning, make dentist appointments, et cetera, et cetera. On an ultimate level, if you were to take a high powered microscope to this desk, you would see it's mostly spinning subatomic particles in empty space and so on. Both of these truths are true at the same time. And so they can see ultimately that if you close your eyes and look for Dan or Joseph. You won't find it can help you not take all of your thoughts and urges and emotions so personally. Am I hunting in the right? He's nodding, but you're looking.

Jason Hamill (58:22)

He always agrees with that. When you say that. I think that the thing about Joseph knows better than I do about. But I think the thing about Buddhism is that it holds out the possibility that you can have both of those relative and ultimate views at once. It doesn't have to be one or the other.

Corey Gardner (58:40)

No.

Jason Hamill (58:41)

Yeah.

Corey Gardner (58:41)

Yeah, right. I think that's what Dan was saying.

Joseph Goldstein (58:47)

My attorney, Goldstein. If it wasn't what I was saying, it's what I'm saying now. This is so fun. Corey, when you listen to this, what comes up for you?

Mark Epstein (59:00)

I need to get to work. That's what I was just thinking. Get to work myself? Yeah.

Joseph Goldstein (59:07)

Have you not done much therapy?

Mark Epstein (59:08)

I haven't done much. I have done some, and I also deemed myself fine to go. I got what I needed, but, you know, I'm sure there's more work to be done, so.

Joseph Goldstein (59:18)

Interesting. Your process was, do no work, declare yourself done.

Mark Epstein (59:21)

I went to therapy for a little while.

Joseph Goldstein (59:23)

Oh, okay. Okay.

Mark Epstein (59:23)

And then I was like, I don't need this anymore. I figured it out. I'm good.

Joseph Goldstein (59:28)

She went once. She went once.

Mark Epstein (59:29)

No, I did not go once. It was one phase.

Joseph Goldstein (59:34)

Like, I'm good. I'm better.

Mark Epstein (59:36)

I did feel like I didn't need it. I don't know. I mean, I guess someone begs to differ. I'm saying now maybe I need to get to work.

Jason Hamill (59:45)

Can I tell you one thing, Dan? When I went to therapy, I had one long therapy. And then my therapist supervisor, he sent me to his teacher, you know, and I went again. But the most. The thing that stayed with me from that second therapy was that he saw me until he died. While I was seeing him, he got bladder cancer. But he let me still come, and he told me everything that was happening. And I saw him right up, until, I think, the summer came. And we. We were up in the country, and I was working on one of the early books, and he died. But that him trusting me enough or letting me into that very intimate, personal process and talking about it openly was really special. I'm eternally grateful to him for that.

Joseph Goldstein (60:41)

And so that goes back to what you were saying before about the relationship aspect of this, rather than just hunting for the key to unlock all of your neuroses.

Jason Hamill (60:49)

Well, and it also goes back to how it's hard for me to let go. So he had to die for.

Corey Gardner (60:56)

I think there's just one other point about the relationship of the two. So I remember when I first started practicing, I was in India. I was young. I was 23 years old. And at first, especially at first, although I continue, you just see all the negativities in the mind and all the garbage in the mind. And I'd be running to my teacher. I didn't. I don't think I used these words, but basically expressing, I'm such a terrible person because I'm seeing all this stuff. And of course, he just smiled and said, just continue. But it was that quality of the teacher not judging what was going on as I was judging it. And I think a therapist serves that same purpose. We just pour out whatever and somebody's holding it without judgment. So that's very healing.

Joseph Goldstein (61:51)

Yes. Notwithstanding the fact that you have called me stupid, I think is one of the greatest aspects of getting to have a relationship with you is that I will tell you all of this embarrassing stuff and you, I never feel judged. I remember calling you once. You asked me a question about something that was difficult. I said, I don't want to talk about it. I'm just going to get angry. You said, no, I like it. Just anger away. Bring it on. And yeah, that is a very healing posture, whether you summon it internally or it's given to you externally.

Dan Harris (62:27)

Coming up, a very special guest who comes on and does a guided meditation.

Alexander Harris (62:45)

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Dan Harris (63:41)

I was doing a public event recently and somebody came up to me and said, do you really wear clothes from quints? And the honest answer is, yes, I do. Not only the stuff that they've sent me as a sponsor of this show, but I actually went to Quint myself the other day and bought myself a bunch of those Mongolian cashmere sweaters, which started at only 50 bucks. I got myself basically one in almost every color. Quince is great and actually it's perfect if you're doing some holiday shopping. Not only do I recommend their iconic Mongolian cashmere sweaters, but they also have super soft fleece sweatpants. They can be a major upgrade to whatever you're lounging in right now. And their packable puffer jackets are perfect for anybody who's traveling for the holidays. No matter what you're looking for, all Quint Items are priced 50 to 80% less than similar brands. By partnering directly with top factories and cutting out the cost of the middleman, Quintz passes the savings on to you. Gift luxury this holiday season without the luxury price tag, go to quince.com happier for 365 day returns plus free shipping on your order. That's Q U N C.com happier to get free shipping and 365 day returns. Quint.com happier.

Joseph Goldstein (65:04)

We have one final guest tonight. A surprise guest is going to come on and do a very brief meditation. I mentioned earlier that every guest tonight appeared in the book 10% happier, with one exception because he wasn't born yet. Ladies and gentlemen, please welcome to the stage Alexander Robert Harris. You good son. How we doing?

G (65:46)

Good.

Joseph Goldstein (65:48)

One word answer is perfect.

G (65:50)

Decent.

Joseph Goldstein (65:51)

Decent. Okay, so we're going to do loving kindness meditation. I got to say, one of the coolest surprises of my life was that I have made the decision. Bianca and I made the decision jointly not to press meditation too hard on Alexander. Although we did have a moment, you and I, a couple weeks ago where you came to me and said, daddy, I'm bored. And I said, how does that feel in your body? And you said, is this a meditation thing? Because if it is, I don't want to hear it.

G (66:18)

That was like last year.

Joseph Goldstein (66:21)

Okay, that was last year. So we made the decision not to be annoying parents, pushing the meditation thing. But, Alex, we're still annoying parents. I don't know if you heard what he said. We're still annoying parents. So we travel a lot together, Alexander.

G (66:39)

And I, and I'm his emotional support animal.

Joseph Goldstein (66:40)

He's my emotional support animal on planes and when I'm giving speeches, he travels with me. And it's great. I said to some of the folks here earlier that it's a little bit like that movie There Will Be Blood where the guy travels around with his little kid doing business deals. This is like a benign version of that. And he must have picked up somewhere along the way how to teach meditation, because I heard from the principal at his school that he was teaching other kids how to do this. And then the high school heard about it and asked him to come teach it at the high school. And I went and it was awesome. So loving kindness meditation. I have to be honest, when I first heard about it, I was not a fan. I have joked that it.

G (67:29)

Me neither.

Joseph Goldstein (67:29)

Yeah, well, a lot of skeptical people don't respond well to it because it feels a little bit like Valentine's Day with a gun to your head. However, there is a ton of science that shows that this practice can have many physiological, psychological, and even behavioral benefits, including, in fact, our mutual friend Richard Davidson, who's a neuroscientist from the University of Wisconsin, has done work to show that this practice can make preschoolers more likely to give their stickers away to kids they do not like. So am I going to teach it or are you going to teach it.

G (68:04)

Sweetie, I'll do it.

Joseph Goldstein (68:05)

You want to do it? Ok. All right, so let me start us out by having you sit comfortably. Maybe you don't have to get uptight about your posture, but you can have your spine reasonably straight. Close your eyes. If you're uncomfortable closing your eyes, you can just kind of gaze softly at a neutral spot on the ground in front of you. And the way this practice works is that we envision a series of beings, people or animals, and we send them a series of phrases. So who's the first being here, buddy?

G (68:42)

Someone that's easy to love.

Joseph Goldstein (68:45)

Okay, so this can be a kid, one of your pets, if you have them. And so see if you can summon the visual image or a felt sense in your body of somebody easy to love. And let's do slowly, the four phrases. What's the first one?

G (69:02)

May you be happy.

Joseph Goldstein (69:03)

May you be happy. See if you can make a connection between the words and the image or the felt sense in your body. Crucially, you do not have to feel any certain way. Just do the exercise and see what happens. What's the second phrase?

G (69:22)

May you be healthy.

Joseph Goldstein (69:23)

May you be healthy.

G (69:26)

May you be safe. Oh, and may you live with these.

Joseph Goldstein (69:33)

You're doing great, buddy. Okay, so the next category. Bring to mind an image of yourself, maybe as a little kid, or you can just feel yourself sitting in the chair. Okay, what's that first phrase, buddy?

G (69:46)

May you be happy.

Joseph Goldstein (69:47)

May you be happy. Let it connect the phrase and the image. What's the next one?

G (69:56)

May you be healthy. May you be safe. And may you live with.

Joseph Goldstein (70:05)

May you be safe. Then what's the next one?

G (70:08)

May you live with Ease.

Joseph Goldstein (70:10)

Okay, only a few more categories. The next one is a mentor, a benefactor. Somebody's helped you out in your life. So it could be a teacher, a parent. If you don't have somebody that you know like this, you can think of somebody on the world stage you admire. So like the Dalai Lama.

G (70:26)

For you, it would be Joseph.

Joseph Goldstein (70:27)

For me, it would be Joseph and Mark. Okay, so let's do the phrases. What's the first one?

G (70:33)

May you be happy, may you be healthy, may you be safe, and may you live with ease.

Joseph Goldstein (70:44)

Good job, buddy. Okay, only three more categories. The next one is a neutral person. So this is somebody you probably overlook in your daily life. It could be a barista, somebody at the office about whom you don't have any particular feelings. Let's bring the image to mind. Sometimes it can be hard with a neutral person, so just do your best. What's the first phrase?

G (71:08)

May you be happy, may you be healthy, may you be safe, and may you live with ease.

Joseph Goldstein (71:19)

Okay, two more characters here.

G (71:23)

The next one is a mildly annoying person.

Joseph Goldstein (71:27)

Mildly annoying person.

G (71:28)

I chose you for the.

Joseph Goldstein (71:30)

Oh, my God.

G (71:32)

I chose you for two. So that's easy to love in this one.

Joseph Goldstein (71:36)

Okay, that's very sweet. I don't know exactly how to feel about it.

G (71:42)

It's a compliment.

Joseph Goldstein (71:43)

It's a compliment. So we have an image in our minds now of somebody who's a little bit tricky for us. What's the first phrase?

G (71:53)

May you be happy.

Joseph Goldstein (71:54)

And I just want to point out here that happy people tend not to be super annoying. So you're not condoning their behavior, just hoping that they'll be happy.

G (72:03)

May you be healthy, may you be safe, and may you live with ease.

Joseph Goldstein (72:11)

Final category is all beings everywhere. So this you can have a mental image of the pale blue dot that Joseph talked about earlier from Carl Sagan.

G (72:20)

Just picture some big blue marble.

Joseph Goldstein (72:24)

Yep. Floating in space. You can. Or just feel it in your body. A sense of omnidirectionality. So once you've got that feeling, let's go with one more time with the phrases.

G (72:36)

May you be happy, may we all be happy, may we all be safe, may we all be healthy, and may we all live with ease.

Joseph Goldstein (72:49)

All right, when you're ready, you can open your eyes and blink back into the room. Ladies and gentlemen, Alexander Harris. Okay, just a few things to say. I want to, in closing here, humor me, because I want to say a few thank yous. First of all, Jason and Corey, proud to know you. In fact, I just want to say, of all of you guys on the stage tonight. This isn't really the language I would normally use, but just to harken back to what Joseph said earlier, I consider you all to be great blessings from the universe. So thank you. I'm going to put earmuffs on you for one minute because I'm going to say a bad word. Inner peace, motherfuckers. Night.

Dan Harris (73:46)

Thanks again to Joseph and Mark. Thank you as well to my friends Jason and Corey from the band Mates of State, I should say. They just put out a new song called Somewhere Available wherever you get your music. And of course thanks to my little man Alexander. Oh, and I should also thank the long list of people who worked so hard to make this live show a reality. Caroline Keenan and Tony Magyar, most especially. Those guys worked incredibly hard on this thing. Also Liz Levin, my wife Bianca, Amy Breckenridge, the folks at Symphony Space, the New York Insight Meditation center, and our sponsors at Audible.

Joseph Goldstein (74:22)

We love those guys. As always.

Dan Harris (74:24)

We'll be doing a cheat sheet for subscribers over@danharris.com where we sum up the key takeaways and give a full transcript. So if you're a subscriber, you'll be getting that or you will have already received that in your inbox. Also@danharris.com you get the chance to chat with me in the text and also many of our guests pop into the chats as well, which is super cool. And I'm doing monthly live AMA sessions and much, much more. I personally would love your support and feedback if you care to take the time to sign up. Final thing to say, I want to thank everybody who worked so hard to make this show. Our producers are Tara Anderson, Caroline Keenan and Eleanor Vasily. Our recording and engineering is handled by the great folks over at Pod People. Lauren Smith is our production manager, Marissa Schneiderman is our senior producer, DJ Kashmir is our executive producer, and Nick Thorburn of the Man Islands wrote our theme if you like 10% happier, and I hope you do, you can listen early.

Joseph Goldstein (75:30)

And ad free right now by joining Wondry in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts.

Dan Harris (75:35)

Prime members can listen ad free on Amazon Music.

Joseph Goldstein (75:38)

Before you go, tell us about yourself.

Dan Harris (75:39)

By filling out a short survey@wondry.com survey.

H (75:46)

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