Podcast Summary:

10% Happier with Dan Harris
Episode Title: Next Time You’re Suffering, Ask Yourself This Question | Caverly Morgan
Original Air Date: August 20, 2025
Guests: Caverly Morgan, author and meditation teacher
Host: Dan Harris

Overview

This episode deeply explores suffering, the nature of the self, and practices that can radically shift our experience of stress and limitation. Dan Harris and Caverly Morgan dive into practical tools for self-inquiry and awareness, why “who am I?” is such a powerful question, and how non-dual awareness (seeing the illusion of the self) can offer freedom from suffering—while also being potentially confusing at first. The episode packs tools like the "SNAP" approach, the core question “what leads towards suffering and what leads away from it?”, and explores the interplay between effortful and effortless mindfulness. Throughout, Dan keeps the tone practical but doesn't shy away from the mind-bending nature of non-duality or the vulnerability of confronting old patterns.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Illusion of the Self and Non-Duality

What’s the “self”, really?

• Caverly: Years of mindfulness & monastic practice led to reinforcing “egoic” patterns instead of dismantling them (06:16).

  “A lot of what was happening as I practiced… my egoic patterns, my conditioned and habitual behaviors were just adopting… the upgraded version of spiritual practice language.” (Caverly, 06:24)

• Dan: Describes his own “vertiginous” brush with non-self—a sense of vastness when asking “who’s in here?” but recognizes that many listeners find this “brain-breaking” or inaccessible (08:23, 13:58).

  “There’s no little homunculus of Dan behind my eyes… When I look for where’s Dan?... It’s very mysterious, and when I knock on that door, I get a vertiginous feeling of vastness.” (Dan, 08:24)

Why bother with non-self?

• Both agree recognizing that “self” is fleeting or constructed by thoughts, sensations, and stories can paradoxically lessen suffering by loosening our grip on identity.
• Caverly: She’s learned that identifying as “someone who needs help” compounded panic/anxiety; turning toward the “vastness of awareness” was liberating (12:12 - 13:57).

2. Grounding Non-Duality in Practice

How do we taste this vastness?

• Caverly: “It’s not esoteric at all — just be aware of being aware. Our being is vast and naturally aware, not limited by our efforts or discipline.” (14:23)
• Dan describes a “contemplative cross-training” approach—using mindfulness, concentration, and glimpses of non-self as complementary rather than competing tools (19:15).

Notable quote:

“What’s helped as much as the practice of reassurances was recognizing that I wasn’t that experience of limitation. I had an experience where I could feel I am the vastness of awareness that these experiences are rising in.” (Caverly, 13:31)

Avoiding the trap of striving:

• Both recognize the double bind: we want to get better at these practices, but effort (driven by a sense of inherent lack) can perpetuate the problem.

“The relief that has come from realizing, holy shit, I don’t have to get better at anything. That’s been profound for me.” (Caverly, 19:53)

3. Practical Approaches and Models

The SNAP method (26:30):

• See it: Notice what's happening
• Name it: Name the pattern (inner critic, anxiety, etc.)
• Allow it: Allow its presence to let go
• Presence: Return to being/awareness itself (not just present-moment focus)

  “Return to presence… just being aware that I’m aware of all that… not working my ass off to try to get present.” (Caverly, 28:04)

• Avoids the trap of using mindfulness simply as “an internal cattle prod.”

Relative vs. Absolute Truth (30:57):

• Dan explains: “Relative truth” — daily life, calendars, being “Dan.”
• “Absolute truth” — at the deepest level, self and other distinctions dissolve.

  “The art of living from a Buddhist standpoint is to kind of move seamlessly between these two realities, to let one inform the other.” (Dan, 32:23)

• Caverly: When you “collapse” the distinction, a sense of unity emerges and interactions — from a place of shared being rather than rigid selfhood — become possible (32:37, 34:30).

4. Joseph Goldstein’s Practical Tools for Realizing Non-Self (40:39)

• Effortless Knowing:
  • Move your arm — it’s effortless to notice sensations.
  • Drop “effortless” into your mind as you sense.
  • Use the passive voice: “Breathing is being known… by what?”

  “The knowing, it’s effortless.” (Dan, 43:00)

• Both agree: brief “glimpses” are enough—don’t sweat if you can’t abide there for long.

5. The Central Inquiry for Suffering

The central question:

• “What leads towards suffering and what leads away from it?” (51:23)
  • In moments of anger, righteousness, or any reactivity, just asking the question often opens the door to freedom.

  “If I can think to ask the question, I’m already on the road to freedom.” (Caverly, 51:28)

• Dan references the “would it help?” question from Bridge of Spies (53:02).

6. Love, Self-Compassion, and the Mystery

• Love as non-separation:
  • Deep states of love correspond to a dissolving of the “self-other” barrier — love is what’s left when separation falls away (55:35).

  “Every time I’m deeply experiencing love, what’s really going on is that there’s simply a falling away of this distorted view that I’m separate… That I experience as love.” (Caverly, 55:39)

• Selflessness ≠ Self-abnegation:
  • “Ego” can manifest as puffed-up or diminished self-image; the goal is not to think of yourself as “nothing,” but recognize the limitation as an illusion (59:55).
  • Combining self-compassion with non-self practice:

    “What interests me about the work of self compassion is… it’s an invitation to return to wholeness versus I have to use this technique to help me feel a little better.” (Caverly, 61:11)

7. Fleshing Out Conditioning — Individual and Collective

• Prompts to reveal unconscious beliefs:
  • Examples: “In order to be loved I need to ___”, “During times of conflict I should ___”, “I’ll be happy when ___”, “My parents always taught me ___” (66:20)
  • Apply individually or collectively (“As a white woman raised in the south, I’m only lovable if ___”)
  • The goal: See the patterns that define and limit us, so awareness can loosen their grip.

  “Let your conditioning, let the mind of limitation reveal how it… keeps you in a box.” (Caverly, 67:53)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “I found that when I look, I see that I have a sense of me, but that's separate from…I can't link that ghostly inner sense of Dan to the hearing or to the seeing or to the thinking. It's very mysterious.” (Dan, 08:24)
• “It's actually incredibly simple to realize that we're aware…Surrendering the attention to awareness lets awareness come to the forefront of my experience instead of hanging out in the shadows.” (Caverly, 39:13)
• “The relief that has come from realizing, holy shit, I don't have to get better at anything. That's been profound for me.” (Caverly, 19:53)
• “What helps is knowing we're already whole…rather than having those practices fueled by something that used to fuel my practice very dramatically, which is once I'm really good at these practices, then I'll be who I want to be…That's what's been probably most liberating for me to dismantle in my own practice.” (Caverly, 19:53)
• “You're perfect just as you are and you could use a little improvement.” – Suzuki Roshi, recalled by Caverly (46:46)
• “Would it help?” — from Bridge of Spies, cited as a pithy version of the suffering question (53:02)
• “This is fun to me…We get to just freaking enjoy our lives. We get to practice something for the love of wanting to be here for the life that we're here to live.” (Caverly, 47:18)
• “Let your conditioning, let the mind of limitation reveal how it's been habituated and how it keeps you in a box.” (Caverly, 67:53)

Timestamps for Important Segments

• 05:50 – Dan introduces the self as illusion/non-duality theme
• 06:16 – Caverly’s “upgraded spiritual egoic patterns” realization
• 09:49 – Caverly’s personal story on panic attacks and self-reassurance
• 13:58 – Dan presses for a more “grounded” explanation of “the vastness”
• 14:23–19:53 – Discussing the difference between presence and “scrambling for the present moment”
• 26:30 – The SNAP method breakdown
• 30:57 – Dan explains relative versus absolute truth
• 32:37–34:30 – Caverly collapses relative and absolute; shared being as practice
• 40:39 – Joseph Goldstein’s “effortless knowing” practice and passive voice
• 51:23 – Caverly’s suffering question: “What leads toward suffering and what leads away from it?”
• 55:35 – Caverly describes non-separation as love
• 59:55 – Selflessness, self-abnegation, and the importance of self-compassion
• 66:20 – Fleshing out conditioning prompts; applying awareness to individual and collective patterns

Recommended Practices & Takeaways

• SNAP: See it, Name it, Allow it (let go), Presence (return to being aware)
• When suffering, ask: “What leads towards suffering and what leads away from it?”
• Practice “effortless knowing”—simply notice experience, then gently ask, “Known by what?” or “Who is aware of this?”
• Use conditioning prompts (see above) to bring hidden drivers to light, personally AND collectively.
• Remember: Brief “glimpses” of non-self are enough—start where you are, don’t get “sweaty.”
• Self-compassion and non-self are mutually reinforcing, not contradictory
• Enjoy practice: Practice is for the joy of being here, not just self-improvement

Guest Resources

• Caverly Morgan
  • Books:
    • A Kid’s Book About Mindfulness
    • The Heart of Who We Are: Realizing Freedom Together
  • Website: caverlymorgan.org
  • Retreats & online offerings found on her site.

This episode is a rich resource for practical and philosophical meditation guidance—balancing brain-bending philosophy with everyday accessibility, and inviting listeners to experiment firsthand with tools that point towards authentic presence, self-compassion, and freedom from suffering.