B (3:25)

I love my new Leesa mattress. After years of sleeping on a cheap mattress I bought on the Internet when I was 21, my body slowly devolved like Smeagol in Lord of the Rings. But now I feel incredible every time I wake up. I got the Legend Chill hybrid mattress and not only does it support my back, but it also cools my back at night. And it's a crazy feeling. I mean, the future is now thanks to the crack team of mattress scientists at Leesa. Thank you Leesa.

A (3:55)

Quite an endorsement, right? You should check it out. Leesa has a lineup of beautifully crafted mattresses tailored to how you sleep without the luxury price tag. Each mattress is designed with specific sleep positions and feel preferences in mind. From night one, you will feel the difference. Premium material that deliver serious comfort and full body support no matter how you sleep. Go to Leesa.com, l E E S A.com for 30% off mattresses plus get an extra $50 off with the promo code Happier. That's exclusive for my listeners. That's L E-E S a.com promo code HAPPIER for 30% off mattresses plus an extra $50 off. Be sure to enter our show name after checkout so they know that we sent you Lisa.com promo code Happier. This episode is brought to you by Choiceology, an original podcast from Charles Schwab. It's hosted by Katie Milkman, an award winning behavioral scientist and author of the best selling book how to Change. Choiceology is a show about the psychology and economics behind our decisions. I can say personally that I 1 million percent vouch for Katie. She is an incredible scientist. She's done so much work that informs what we now know about how to make behavior change or habit change in our own lives. She's been a guest on this show. She's not only incredibly smart and accomplished, but also really warm and a great speaker who's able to articulate complex and important ideas in simple ways. On the show, which, again, is called choiceology, you'll hear true stories from Nobel laureates, authors, athletes, and everyday people about why. Why we do the things we do. You can listen@schwab.com podcast or wherever you're listening to this podcast. Cavalry Morgan, welcome to the show.

C (5:47)

Thanks so much, Dan. I'm honored.

A (5:50)

There's been a lot of back and forth about what we should discuss and how we should discuss it. And I think we landed on starting with this concept that kind of, for some people, can be a little brain breaking, which is the notion of the self and whether the self is real or an illusion. In your view, why is it important to start there, Dan?

C (6:16)

I think it's important to start there because in my own experience, I spent years practicing mindfulness, even training monastically. And I don't feel that I was directly facing the question, but who am I really? And so a lot of what was happening as I practiced is my egoic patterns, my conditioned and habitual behaviors were just adopting. They were like getting the upgraded version of spiritual practice language. And in a way, I was just reinforcing this idea that I am. This limited me working hard in practice, striving pretty exhausted in practice often, and feeling as though what I longed for was always out of reach.

A (7:12)

But I can imagine somebody listening to this, thinking, well, if you're not you, who are you? I mean, if it's not me doing the effort in meditation, who's making the effort?

C (7:27)

Yeah. And that's the question that I think is so important for us to explore in our own direct experience. I wish someone had brought that question to me in the early days of my practice. And again, I wasn't asking that question. So I think it's important for us to begin by inviting folks, including myself in this moment, to be present to what arises with the question, if I'm not the one that's been working my ass off to try to become more mindful, to try to become more responsive versus reactive, who am I?

A (8:05)

Yeah. So how. What's your answer to that question?

C (8:09)

Well, actually, Dan, I wanted to hear what arises for you in all sincerity, like if we're going to start off here, I'm just so curious, like what happens in your own real time experience with that?

A (8:23)

Well, I feel a little sheepish answering because you and I were talking about this before we started rolling. I have not done any polling on this, but in my unscientific polling of humans who cross my path, I find that I actually have had some good experiences with this idea of just gently looking for the self, like who's in there? There's no little homunculus of Dan behind my eyes, between my ears. It's pretty obvious to me when I look and when I look for where's Dan? Or another way to do it is what's hearing, what's seeing, you know, who's taking delivery of these sensory packages. I found that when I look, I see that there's. I have a sense of me, but that's separate from. I can't link that ghostly inner sense of Dan to, to the hearing or to the seeing or to the thinking. It's all. It's very mysterious. And when I knock on that door, I get a vertiginous feeling of vastness. However, I'm real. I realize that as these words come pouring out of my face hole, there are a lot of people who are like, what are you talking about? Like I don't know what you're talking about. And those people are not bad meditators, they're not stupid. It's just harder for some people to see than others.

C (9:49)

Yeah. And I think what might be helpful in this moment is if I ground it a little bit with just a personal experience. When I was in high school, I had panic attacks, which I know you can relate to. And I was in a time in my life where no one was telling me that's what was going on. And these panic attacks arose in testing situations and when I felt pressured. This was way before someone came along and helped me understand neurodivergence. So I just thought, oh, I'm stupid. I didn't even know I was believing the negative self talk that I'm stupid. But I believed that I was. And when I began to train monastically, one thing that helped me deeply was. I know you focused a lot in your work on self compassion. So one thing that helped me deeply was something I know a lot of your listeners are very familiar with, which was learning how to offer unconditionally loving reassurances to myself. That kind of befriending myself completely changed my relationship with who I thought of myself to be. And yet I still often identified with a felt sense that I am someone that needs help in some way. I am someone that needs to practice in order to have. Have less panic in my life. Recently, I haven't even said this story out loud yet, but I. My husband owns a sailboat and I thought it would be a good thing, since I've only been on a sailboat twice, to learn how to sail. So I did one of these ASA sailing courses. And Dan, I wasn't even aware that I had avoided being in multiple choice testing situations since I was in high school. Like, I was a theater major, I was an art major. After that, I focused on art. And I knew that I believed I wasn't smart enough to be a vet, which is what I really wanted to do, is be a veterinarian. But I didn't realize that I had truly been avoiding this situation of being back in the saddle of what created all this anxiety. So I got to be on this little sailboat after two days of sailing and taking this multiple choice test. Now, obviously, I'm only there for my own love, my own pleasure. So the stakes weren't high, but my body and mind reacted as if they were. I mean, I'm talking sweaty palms. One guy that I was doing this, the test with, he finished it in like half an hour and I wasn't even halfway through. And I had to go to the sailing instructor and say, explain neurodivergence and be like, I need an untimed test. The point is, not only did I get to practice what I've been practicing, which is befriending myself in that situation, not only did I get to say like, you know, I'm here with you. You need an advocate. I'll go tell this guy we gotta have an untimed test. Nobody did that for me in high school. I just like got crazy bad SAT scores because I had no advocate. And I just got paralyzed, had panic attacks, couldn't finish the test. And then I had people calling my parents, saying, there's something really wrong with your child. So the point is, what happened in this recent situation is what helped as much as the practice of reassurances was recognizing that I wasn't that experience of limitation. I had an experience where I could feel I am the vastness of awareness that these experiences are rising in. And that for me is just one way to make it really grounded. I had all the same shit happen. I mean, if you looked at me, you'd been like, wow, her Face is red, she's sweaty. But I feel that being able to turn to something beyond even the practice of reassuring myself is what really popped me into a different experience than I would have been able to have even 10 years ago.

A (13:58)

I say this with respect and affection and interest, but I'm not sure. Not sure how grounding that is. And I know it is to you because it makes sense in your lived experience, but I suspect for many people, and I know because I've had this conversation with many people, when you say I tapped into a vastness, what the hell is that? What does that mean? And how do you do it?

C (14:23)

Yeah. You know, one thing I love about getting in touch with what's beyond a limited sense, like the limited way I've been conditioned or habituated to think of myself, is that it's actually. It can be. Sometimes it's presented as though it's complicated, but it can be quite simple. For the purposes of this conversation, I want to refer to it as nothing esoteric at all, but just being able to feel my own being. My own being is aware. We can really keep it that simple. Because for me, at the end of the day, it actually isn't a complicated conversation. I feel that I spent so much time, for example, in mindfulness practice paying attention to what I'm aware of, but I never was asking the question, well, what's aware of these things? And so when you mentioned, like, knowing and sensing and some of the words you used before when you're speaking, we only have those experiences because we're aware. And I think that's the way to keep it really simple. Our being is vast and naturally aware and not limited by the efforts of our practice. You know, one of the things that I wanted to get out of Dan, I'm a one on the Enneagram, and I think that probably says a lot to some of our listeners. But I worked my ass off in practice. I mean, who the hell goes to a monastery for eight years because they are so clear that it's through the efforts of their discipline that they're going to achieve something? Me, maybe Other people go for other reasons, but I'm just going to be fully clear that I felt like I met my first teacher, and I was so impressed with just that. She was so present. And I was like, however she got there, that's what I want to learn. And she could have told me to go join the military, and I would have. I didn't know anything about Zen. I didn't know anything about Buddhism. I was just like, yes, that, please. And I applied discipline, effort. And I'm not saying those things aren't valuable. I wouldn't be sitting here today probably if I hadn't had all these experiences. But there's something really powerful that happens to me when we can combine things that we found useful, valuable, like a lot of discipline, for example, or our ability to concentrate or focus the attention. That is. I'm so glad I learned how to focus my attention at the monastery. But again, there's a missing piece. And that piece came once I left the monastery and started going more deeply into, well, what is it that's focusing the attention?

A (17:09)

Yes. So I think what you're saying, and if this is what you're saying, I really agree with it. Although I'm going to add a question on the end just to check to make sure we're sharing the same reality here. I think what you're saying is, is one can, in meditation or even in therapy learn to become more self aware to understand, oh, I'm having these thoughts and in meditation I'm feeling these sensations in the body or hearing these sounds. And I can learn to direct my attention to my sensory experience and hold it there and then learn how when I get distracted, I can start again. So those are all really helpful skills. But there's this other skill that is sometimes not pointed out to us, that you can be aware of what is aware. Like what is, as I said before, what's like taking delivery of all of these packages. I'm having a thought, like, who's knowing? I'm even having a thought, who's even asking this question. And that can really cut through the suffering. If you're feeling a physical sensation that's unpleasant, or if you're in the grips of a gnarly emotion, just getting right to the root of like, what is even who's doing the suffering here? Like, who's feeling all of this can pull the rug out in a positive way from beneath the suffering. So I have a question to add to that, but am I understanding the value proposition correctly?

C (18:35)

You're absolutely. We're on the same page 100%. And I'm really appreciating how you're reflecting it and putting it forward. The thing that I want to underline about it is that from a love of practice, we get to employ all of it. We get to employ the question who am I? And we get to employ the practice of I better do box breathing for a second because I know that helps me. Like, we don't have to Shut anything out. And it can be. Because all of it can be supportive. All of it can be beneficial.

A (19:12)

Yes.

C (19:12)

At least that's my. My own experience.

A (19:15)

And that's my experience. I mean, I think kind of contemplative cross training is really helpful, not only because different situations call for different things, but that these skills of the ability to focus or concentrate, the ability to have metacognition or mindfulness, self awareness, so you're seeing your thoughts for what they are and not taking them so seriously, the ability to tap into what might be called not self or non. Duality or emptiness, they're all mutually reinforcing. You will get better at each of them as you get better at the others. So if I'm understanding you correctly, I really agree.

C (19:53)

Yeah. And what I really love is in my own practice, the relief that has come from realizing, holy shit, I don't have to get better at anything. That's been profound for me. Like, yeah, Dan, I've worked my ass off at getting better at practices my whole life. I don't even know what the hell I would do if I had some other job aside from what I do. This is it. This is it for me. And I feel so lucky that I now get to pair with my love of practices. I create practices as a hobby. You know, I love these little practices you put forward that are really short. You're just walking along and you can give it in a quick Instagram moment. I find things like that so useful because we can grab onto them and try them out. And I love that we can apply these practices while knowing we're already whole, we're already complete, rather than having those practices fueled by something that used to fuel my practice very dramatically, which is once I'm really good at these practices, then I'll be who I want to be. Once I can master this, then I'll have arrived somewhere. That's what's been probably most liberating for me to dismantle in my own practice. And I'm not saying I'm always there, but I'm recognizing the value of. Of putting that down.

A (21:25)

Yeah, that resonates for me. It's funny, I. I think I use the phraseology of getting better. And to a certain extent, especially with focus or mindfulness like you, actually, you can get better.

C (21:39)

Yeah.

A (21:39)

But the problem is the desire to get better hinders the getting better. And if you're coming at it from a place of insufficiency, it's gonna. Or expectation it's gonna get frustrating. And which is why Being able to tap into this, the truth that there's much more and less to you than you think. In other words, that the self, this ego that you're, that's seemingly the CEO of your life actually is. Is quite illusory and it's substantial that you're already whole and connected to the whole. That can actually counterintuitively, paradoxically, help you get better at some of these things. Because you're not trying as hard. You're not so sweaty.

C (22:24)

Yeah. Because you're not identified with a limited view of self, a constricted view of self. A self that's pretty fragile, actually.

A (22:37)

Coming up, Kavarly Morgan talks about how to move past a constricted view of the self. And I push her on clarity because this topic can be confusing, but it's incredibly, incredibly, incredibly important. We also talk about the difference between relative truth and absolute truth. We'll explain that some Joseph Goldstein tips on getting a glimpse of no self. These are very practical tips that I use myself. And we'll talk about the perks of what I call meat and potatoes. Dharma I like nice clothes. I wouldn't call myself a fashion plate. My wife is. But I'm more, you know, I'm not like high style. You won't see me on the runways in Paris. But I like nice clothes and I like to look good, which is important because a lot of my work is on camera. However, I don't like to spend a ton of money, which is why I really love Quint because they've got high quality stuff, you know, like high quality fabrics, classic fits, lightweight layers for warm weather, all at prices that make sense. Everything I've ordered from Quint has been totally solid. And I order real basics like underwear and socks, but also cashmere sweaters. They've got these really comfy pants that I wear a lot. You may have heard me say this before, but it is not uncommon for me to be head to toe Quince, especially when I'm like, in the city having meetings. If I'm at home, I'm in sweatpants. But often I'll be wearing Quint's cozy wear. So I represent at home and out in the world. Quint has closet staples you'll reach for over and over, like cozy cashmere and cotton sweaters for just 50 bucks. Breathable flow knit polos and comfortable lightweight pants that somehow work for both weekend hangs and dressed up dinners. Everything from Quints is half the cost of similar brands. By working directly with top artisans and cutting out the middlemen, Quince gives you luxury pieces without the markup. And Quince only works with factories that use safe, ethical and responsible manufacturing practices and premium fabrics and finishes. Keep it classic and cool with long lasting staples. From Quince, go to quints.com happier for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. Quints.com happier all right, I'm going to be honest. Shopping, not my thing. I don't like it. I've spent many hours scrolling websites, you know, if I need a new pair of jeans or whatever, and I'm either overwhelmed by all the choices or underwhelmed by the lack of options. And then I often end up with stuff that doesn't fit and then I'm too lazy to send it back and I've wasted money. This is where Stitch Fix comes in. If you're tired of wasting your time trying to figure out your style, Stitch Fix has you covered. You just take a quick style quiz, share your size, your vibe and your budget and boom, you're matched with a real human stylist who handles the rest. They send you a fixed box with clothes that actually fit and make sense for your life, your work, your weekends, whatever. It saves you time, you look great and you don't have to think about it. It's no risk. All style. You can try it all on in the comfort of your home. Keep what works, send back the rest. Free shipping and returns always and no subscription required. Plus get a free try on for your first fix. Get started today at stitchfix.com happier to get 20 off your first order and they will waive your styling fee. That's stitchfix.com/happier. Okay, that gets me right to the question I referenced earlier that I was hoping to ask you but have not yet articulated, which is how, how do we do this? Because I again I'm. I'm making the empathic leap into the earbuds of listeners. Hopefully I'm doing this with some degree of accuracy and I can imagine people are thinking, well, okay, that sounds good, but how the fuck do you do that? Like what? What's the process?

C (26:30)

Yeah, I have a lot of folks that tease me for how often I assign homework. And the idea is that homework in awareness practice just keeps things at the forefront of your experience. So one little homework assignment I often give is in a little practice called SNAP. I've been teaching this for about 20 years, but it wasn't until Maggie Steele, who works with me at Peace in Schools along and gave it this clever acronym. SNAP stands for See it name it allow, which allows for a letting go. Allow it. And P stands for return to presence. And to me, the reason this is so significant, Dan, is I've spent so many years in my own practice feeling identified with a limited sense of I that's trying really hard to get in the present moment, watching when I'm not in the present moment, watching when the attention's in the past or the future, and then trying really hard to get back to the present moment. Not only does that activity keep in place this idea that I am this little me trying really hard to not go down the road of past or future, but it actually also keeps in place this very linear idea of time and the present moment. If I'm approaching things that way is this tiny little spot in between past and future. What I like about return to presence is that it's actually a prompt. Once we've employed all these mindfulness practices that you've already acknowledged, seeing that, oh, I'm identified with my habitual mind, the mind of limitation, the conditioned mind. I can name. Oh, that's just the inner critic beating the shit out of me. I know what that is. I can name it. I allow, which allows for a letting go. And then I return to presence. I return to actually just being aware that I'm aware of all that. I'm just. It's that simple. I'm just returning to my own being. And to me, that's very different than get your attention back to the present moment, where I'm gonna work my ass off to try to get present you with me.

A (28:49)

Ish. I'm trying to figure out. So just to push you to articulate in a way that even I can understand the difference between scrambling back to the present moment, which of course is slipping away all the time, both because it's always a new moment and also because we're so distractible. So the difference between using an internal cattle prod to get us back into the present moment and what you're calling presence.

C (29:19)

Yeah, thank you. I'm suggesting that it's when I feel that my attention's aligned with the conditioned mind, the mind that's habituated by society, family, friends, culture. When I'm identified with the conditioned mind, time feels incredibly real. It just seems obvious that the present moment is now. The past is back there, the future's over there. And something that maybe isn't occurring to me, if I'm viewing time in that way, is to back up and just ask, is it possible that that view, that line of time, is just a perception what if there actually really only is? Now we hear spiritual teachers talk about it all the time. But what if that's really the case? There's just this, and this includes the view of time that we're used to walking around, operating inside. Now, I'm not going so far to say so time is just illusion. I mean, it actually is. But I don't think statements like that are helpful. I had to time my day so that I could get up and be ready to talk to you. Today I looked at a calendar, right? So there's a reality to time. But usually we're walking around assuming it's the whole picture, assuming it's reality with a capital R.

A (30:57)

What I find helpful to help get my sea legs and all of this stuff is the Buddhist concept of relative truth and ultimate truth just for the listener, because I know you know, this cavalry, but for the listener on the relative level is just basically our consensual reality. The reality in which we need an alarm clock to wake us up or tell us when we have to go somewhere and look at our calendar. And I'm me, you're you. You know, I need to get certain things done and interact with other people as if they're separate people, the, the movie in which we live. So on the level of relative truth, it's true, but on the ultimate level, on the ultimately, it's like taking a high powered microscope to the chair I'm sitting in right now. It seems like a chair, but if I really look closely, it's spinning subatomic particles. It's mostly empty space. And the same is true in your mind. You know, I feel like Dan, but if I really look for Dan, I can't find it. It's made up of component parts, like thoughts and sensations. But there's no, as I said before, there's no like homunculus or core nugget of Dan that is findable. And therefore there isn't on some level like real separation between me and you and me and the foam padding on this wall that we use to keep the sound out. And I am porous in really important ways. And the art of living from a Buddhist standpoint is to kind of move seamlessly between these two realities to let one inform the other. How am I doing?

C (32:37)

You're singing my song. I'm right there with you. And what I really love is when we continue down this road, we will find in our own direct experience, at least in mine, that they're not even two realities. And that's where things get really fun. So, yes, there's the absolute, and then there's the relative. I like the word absolute, and I think you said ultimate. But we're just for the listener. It's the same thing. So that doesn't even have to be viewed as, okay, well, shit, I gotta go about my day and just tend all these relative things. But I can't wait till I clock out, because then I get to hang out in the absolute, and I get to just be. I get to just feel my own aware being and enjoy the peace of my own true nature. We actually can know ourselves as the absolute, as our aware being, and then we can address the relative. We can be in the relative. So, for example, I can. If I'm talking to you and I'm like, oh, gosh, this is Dan. He's a. He's. He's famous. And I. I am nobody. I need to act this way. He's acting this way, you know, And I'm. I'm really reaffirming the idea that I'm separate. You're separate, and now I'm in relationship with you. Here on the relative plane, it's really different. If I come into the conversation and I'm like, there's Dan. We share the same being. Like, we're the same. Ultimately, we're the same shit. Dan's just arising over there. I'm arising over here. And now it's my intention to rel to Dan and actually all the listeners by speaking from my being to their being. And that's a different conversation usually. So it's, to me, really powerful to let even the idea of absolute and relative collapse together.

A (34:30)

Yes, that makes sense to me. I do want to, however, keep representing those for whom this conversation still may not make sense. Let me say to you, the listener, parenthetically, thank you for hanging in, because we've covered these kinds of subjects before. And thank you for hanging in on those conversations too, because this stuff is important and can take a while to make sense. So we do want to represent those folks who might still be struggling a little bit. When you say just be or hanging out in awareness, I do want to come back to the question of how to do that. Like, what is. What does that look like?

C (35:09)

One analogy I like to use, Dan, is that before this recent chapter of my own practice and training, I only focused on trying to put the attention where I want it to be. So if you picture a flashlight, I focused on, oh, I'm now able to see through mindfulness practice that the flashlight is over on Thoughts of regret. Oh, because of mindfulness practice, I can see that the flashlight's on, fearing that I don't have enough money and I'm going to end up with a shopping cart outside the grocery store, like with no home. So that practice, if we talk about what my practice looked like for many years, it was just to learn how to notice where that attention was and then redirect it to what we've talked about as something in the present moment. Like, I'm going to redirect it to the experience of sitting on this chair or in walking meditation. I'm going to redirect it to the felt sense of the soles of my feet. So the flashlight's getting refocused. One thing that I find useful as an image is to imagine that the flashlight, the light of the flashlight were allowed to just draw back into the flashlight itself. That the light of the flashlight could just go in the other direction for a moment, that the attention could actually relax instead of. I've been habituated to train the attention to be in these other places, to have an object that's of the present moment as an anchor. So getting to relax the attention is what I refer to as getting to hang out in my own being. And what I'm suggesting is that when we hang out in our own being, we actually directly experience the very thing that I was trying to get through practicing my ass off. And I'm not suggesting, of course, that that doesn't mean don't use those practices. They're really helpful.

A (37:18)

And they can be helpful in what you're, I think, prodding us to do, because it does take some concentration, some ability to focus the mind in order to do what I think it does, in order to do what you're suggesting we do. But I do want to keep pressing you on this, like so very practically, if I get home at the end of the day, or even in the middle of my day, as you suggested earlier, I want to shine the light, the beam of light from the flashlight back into the flashlight. Is it as simple as that? Just to imagine a flashlight and then go for it? Or there are little practices that you.

C (37:53)

Recommend that might work for someone. But it could be as simple as noticing this kind of comes back to that snap practice. It could be as simple as just noticing that your attention has been bouncing from thing to thing to thing to thing all day long. And that because you've been practicing mindfulness, maybe you've been trying to get it to just focus on present moment things. And maybe you're tired. Maybe in that moment where you recognize, Damn, I'm just tired. You invite the attention that's been going out to all the things, all. All the objects to just soften and relax. If you relax the attention, it naturally comes back to its home. That's why I love Jeff Warren. Stole the title Home Base. I wish I had thought of that before him. It's so good. Home Base. We're coming back to home Base. We're letting the attention come home to being. It's not a fancy thing, actually.

A (38:55)

Well, I know it's very natural what you're describing. However, if I just try to relax my attention, mostly I start thinking about, like, what's for dinner? So is that what you're describing or. Because I don't think it is what you're describing. Because in my default mode, it's rumination.

C (39:13)

Yes. So one thing that might be helpful, if I'm suddenly catching myself ruminating and it feels kind of impossible to relax my attention, I try to relax my attention and just boun us to the next thing. One of the things that I find helpful is to directly recognize that the way I know that my attention's bouncing all over the place is because I'm aware of it. That's how I know. That's how I can tell you. Dan, I woke up this morning. I was thinking about, is this the right shirt to wear for our podcast? You know, I'm tracking where my attention went in preparation for talking to you. How do I. How can I tell you this? Because I'm aware. That's what my attention was doing. Okay, let me just surrender to that awareness. I'm just gonna surrender to what's naturally aware, and it's not aware because I applied effort. That's the critical thing here. That's been the critical thing in my own practice. I really thought that being aware was somehow, like, the byproduct of how hard I was working. And it didn't occur to me for a long time that awareness is primary. It's usually, like, in the backdrop of my experience, but just like, surrendering the attention to awareness lets awareness come to the forefront of my experience. Instead of hanging out in the shadows, instead of it being something we're actually.

A (40:39)

Never thinking about, I'm gonna describe some practices that I learned from Joseph Goldstein that have been helpful. Joseph Goldstein, just for the uninitiated, is a great meditation teacher that helped me see what I think you're pointing to. So let me describe them, and then you can tell me if I'm in the same neighborhood as you. Does that sound all right?

C (40:59)

Please.

A (41:00)

So one thing Joseph often has his students do is just like, move your arm, just very gently. This isn't. This isn't even like a form of meditation, but just to move your arm or any limb or anything on your body and just notice, like, how much effort is required to feel the sensations of movement. It's effortless. You don't have to do anything to feel your arm moving. We do a lot of efforting in meditation. We try to focus on one thing, we get distracted, we haul our attention back, etc. Etc. But essentially, the act of knowing takes a lot of effort. The remembering to wake up and all that stuff can be a little effortful, but the raw knowing of sensation or even mentation, you know, thinking is effortless. And so one little practice I do in my own practice is I'll just drop that word effortless into my mind as I'm walking, for example, or feeling my breath. It's like, yeah, there's no effort required just to know this. And then a supplemental thing I'll do, also from Joseph, is use the passive voice. So specifically, breathing is being known, or movement is being known, or seeing is being known. And then this is the key to add the question by what? And then you investigate. All right, let's. As I keep saying, who or what is taking delivery of these mental packages? And I find in those moments, I get a little glimpse of the fact that there is no core, me, there is no self that is findable. First of all, what do you think of those practices? And second, am I describing what you're describing? Are we talking about the same thing?

C (42:46)

We're talking about the same thing. I love those practices. And I think at one point I might have misheard you. I might have. I thought I heard you say knowing takes effort. But I think what you're pointing to is that the knowing itself is effortless.

A (43:00)

Yes. If I misspoke, I apologize. That's what I meant. Like, the knowing, it's effortless. Yes.

C (43:06)

Sorry, I got excited. I interrupted you. Please continue.

A (43:09)

No, no, I think I was the one interrupting you. But okay, this leads to my question. When you talk about hanging out in awareness, like, for me, I can get little glimpses. And by the way, that is in some classical Buddhist traditions, the word glimpse is very important. Like, I can get a little glimpse of the illusion of the self, but I've never managed to be able to hang out in it in any real way. I just kind of. I like to use the Analogy of just like knocking at the door with one of these questions, like, known by what? I can knock at the door and there might be a little sense of holy shit. Like this is just an empty room. Like a vast empty room actually. It's filled with everything except for me. And that's really interesting. But I don't sit there for an hour at a time. Does that make sense? Do you see what I'm trying to get at?

C (43:59)

I totally do. And this is where, Dan, I think our shared love of practice will collide because some people will say it's a non practice to return to your own being. Cause it doesn't take any effort to realize that you're aware. You can realize right now, like, are you aware of the sound of my voice? Are you aware of the water that you're taking a sip of in this moment? Are you aware of swallowing? It's actually incredibly simple to realize that we're aware. Again, because it's so simple. Some people will say it's a non practice. I actually love practice, so I'm really hip to say. I like to practice the non practice. I like to recognize as I'm drinking my tea that I could be spending that whole time being mindful of the taste of the tea as a practice. And that's a beautiful practice. I also could practice being aware of the knowing of the taste of the tea while I'm also enjoying the taste of the tea. And the reason I underline practice and the value of it is because it. We get better at this as we do it. We stabilize in the knowing of ourselves as presence, as aware being. The more we practice resting in that knowing and then it just becomes enjoyable to be really present to whatever you're doing. But that's, that's not because you're working really hard to try to get better and just focusing on, for example, becoming less reactive and more responsive and hopefully becoming a better person, a better individual self through your training.

A (45:55)

This interplay of effort and effortlessness is, I think, in my experience, like a big part of the art of the practice. And I just want to say to anybody who might be frustrated or confused, still, there's nothing wrong with you. This is subtle stuff. And like, where I often end up in these situations is just like, do the practices. Do your basic meat and potatoes mindfulness practice. Try these glimpse practices and see what happens. You know, don't get too sweaty about it. Notice when you do get sweaty because that's inevitably going to happen. But just, you know, what do they say in The Zen tradition, chop wood, carry water. Like, do your thing and see how it goes.

C (46:37)

Yeah, it's a beautiful interplay. That's why I like Suzuki Roshi's quote that you're perfect just as you are and you could use a little improvement.

A (46:45)

I love that.

C (46:46)

So we can recognize the wholeness of our being. We can recognize the effortless nature of getting to just be ourselves. And there might be some things we want to work on in our lives. Like I practicing a specific communication skill has helped my marriage. That's again, this is the fun part to me, Dan, what's really helped my marriage is to supercharge that practice. So let's say I learned in couples therapy that to supercharge that practice with the knowing that I'm not separate from my husband, that we share our very being, it's just kind of skyrocketed the effects of the practice. It doesn't mean I'm now not ever going to practice anything. It means that the practices come from a different understanding and what the byproduct of that is. We get to just freaking enjoy our lives. We get to practice something for the love of wanting to be here for the life that we're here to live. We get to practice something because there's joy in it.

A (48:00)

Coming up, Kavarly talks about some more ways to supercharge your practice and how love and self compassion factor into all of this. I like nice clothes. I wouldn't call myself a fashion plate. My wife is, but I'm more, you know, I'm not like high style. You won't see me on the runways in Paris. But I like nice clothes and I like to look good, which is important because a lot of my work is on camera. However, I don't like to spend a ton of money, which is why I really love Quint because they've got high quality stuff, you know, like high quality fabrics, classic fits, lightweight layers for warm weather, all at prices that make sense. Everything I've ordered from quints has been totally solid. And I order real basics, like underwear and socks, but also cashmere sweaters. They've got these really comfy pants that I wear a lot. You may have heard me say this before, but it is not uncommon for me to be head to toe quints, especially when I'm like in the city having meetings. If I'm at home, I'm in sweatpants. But often I'll be wearing quints cozy wear. So I represent at home and out in the world. Quint has closet staples. You'll reach for over and over like cozy cashmere and cotton sweaters for just 50 bucks, breathable flow knit polos and comfortable lightweight pants that somehow work for both weekend hangs and dressed up dinners. Everything from Quints is half the cost of similar brands. By working directly with top artisans and cutting out the middlemen, Quint gives you luxury pieces without the markup. And Quint only works with factories that use safe, ethical and responsible manufacturing practices and premium fabrics and finishes. Keep it classic and cool with long lasting staples from quince. Go to quint.comhappier for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. Quints.comhappier this episode is brought to you by Choiceology, an original podcast from Charles Schwab. It's hosted by Katie Milkman, an award winning behavioral scientist and author of the best selling book how to Change. Choiceology is a show about the psychology and economics behind our decisions. I can say personally that I 1 million percent vouch for Katie. She is an incredible scientist. She's done so much work that informs what we now know about how to make behavior change or have it change in our own lives. She's been a guest on this show. She's not only incredibly smart and accomplished, but also really warm and a great speaker who's able to articulate complex and important ideas in simple ways. On the show, which again is called Choiceology, you'll hear true stories from Nobel laureates, authors, athletes and everyday people about why we do the things we do. You can listen@schwab.com podcast or wherever you're listening to this podcast. Let me ask you about some more practices and I don't know if these practices are effortful or effortless. I'll let you describe them. We've talked already about snap, see it, name it, Allow it Presence. Another practice that you discussed with my compadre Marissa, senior producer on the show who collaborated with you on preparing me for this interview. One of the practices you and Marisa discussed was asking this question, what leads towards suffering and what leads away from it? Can you say more about what what you mean by that?

C (51:23)

Yeah, I just. Dan, this question's been so helpful in my own life. You know, I find that this practical question, if I can think to ask the question, I'm already on the road to freedom. So there I am in any situation presenting itself. Maybe something where I feel myself. The place my attention just went is I feel myself really wanting to be right. Right about something. I mean, Dan, I'm just going to break it to you. I'm Right. I'm just really right. That thing that happened yesterday, I'm just right. So whatever that thing is, I believe you.

A (52:03)

I'm on your side.

C (52:04)

Yeah, you're on my side. You get it. No, it's like those moments where you're just. You don't even think of it as I'm being right. You just know you're holding what's right and what's real and what's true. Those are those awesome moments to say, does this lead towards suffering or away from it? Does my clinging on to that lead towards suffering or away from it? That moment of, for example, feeling so identified with being right is a really good example of it's really hard. You can't be right in that sense and be free because you have to be identified with a sense of separateness in order to be right in that kind of identified way that I'm describ driving. So it's helpful to be able to say, all right, where am I going here? Where does this lead? This process I'm doing reminds me of.

A (53:02)

And I've talked about this movie before, so my apologies to listeners who are tired of me mentioning this movie, but there was a movie, I think a decade ago called the Bridge of Spies, starring Tom Hanks, and he's played a lawyer for a Russian accused spy. And Tom Hanks, his character is a quite highly strung. And every once in a while, he would come in talking about some devastating development in the case to his client, and his client would receive the news impassively. And Hanks's character would say, you know what? Why aren't you stressed about this? And the client would say, would it help?

C (53:42)

Oh, perfect. Yeah, same thing. Same thing. I haven't seen that movie. No, I just wrote it down, though. Yeah. We have to ask ourselves. My husband's very good at asking this question, actually. He's really good at saying, yeah, I'll be caught in something. And he'll say, well, what would the outcome of that be? Play this out for me. Where do you think? If you were to bring this up or do this behavior or follow through with that, where do you see it going? And that's another way to realize, oh, shit, that actually I just end up further down the hill of, see, I'm right, and I get to be righteous and I get to feel, you know, special. But it doesn't actually, when I play it out, it doesn't lead to, like, deepened connection, deepened intimacy. And these are all things I really want. And I would suggest most of us, even if we don't word it that way. Don't we all want to be loved, feel love? And then I would add, based on our conversation today, Dan, and this is that little extra step that if people are drawn to play with it, go for it. It's to know ourselves as love.

A (54:59)

Okay.

C (55:00)

This is because ultimately I think that's what we are looking for. Yeah, please.

A (55:04)

I was just gonna double click on that because this is an interesting point we've talked about. Well, who are we really? We're unfindable and therefore inextricably interwoven with the surround with the universe, whatever you want to call it. But the idea that actually that mystery that we are is synonymous with love, that might bear some explanation.

C (55:35)

I think that's fair. The reason I feel comfortable calling that love is because every time I'm deeply experiencing love, what's really going on is that there's simply a falling away of this distorted view that I'm separate. So it's like that little tiny cavalry that runs around trying so hard in life and wants to get everything perfect and wants to be right and thinks that she's gonna get love if she's right. Which is a really sad setup that keeps me working hard all the time. When that narrative, when that distortion, when that illusion gets to fall away, what's left is an experience that I would call love. It's an experience where there isn't two. There's just, to use a really. A phrase, you might say kavarlie. That's too woo woo for me. But it's like there's just the unity of being. And that. That I experience is love. It's the collapse of you and me. Again, let's go back to a practical relative plane. Absolute thing. If I'm coming at you and I feel you as totally separate from me, I actually might have some hallmark feelings that we could call love with like a lowercase L for you. But when there's l with a capital L, it's because I'm recognizing that you and I share the same being. And that's. That's love. That's why we love being in love. Because this I disappears. What do they call orgasm? And in French, isn't it. Isn't it a little death?

A (57:22)

I didn't know that. I do speak a little French, but I didn't. Clearly I didn't get that far enough in my studies, or at least I was not studying in the right places.

C (57:30)

Yeah, Dan, you didn't learn enough French to learn orgasm.

A (57:33)

No, I probably just was not Doing well enough with the opposite sex to have it come up in context. Yeah, well, that makes sense. A little death because the, the self can go away in those moments. And it also makes sense what you're saying. I think this is kind of grounded. Like how do we. Joseph Goldstein always talks about, you know, we're naturally drawn to people who are less self centered.

C (57:59)

Totally.

A (57:59)

And that is kind of synonymous with enlightenment in the Buddhist sense. Like you're turning down the volume on the ego, on the self, and therefore you're more available. And what is that if not love?

C (58:13)

What is that if not love? And I would suggest that we're more available than our limited minds even understand how to comprehend when we're not identified with the illusion of separate self. For example, if you're not identified with that illusion, you have access to information that is not available to you. If you're in conversation with me right now, only focused on your. On yourself. If you're only focused on, you know, do I look good or do I whatever your self centered. Maybe it's just what am I having for dinner? So there's so much we cut out of view the minute the small sense of self can be seen for the illusion that it is possibility is infinite.

A (59:08)

When I first started getting interested in Buddhism, I would hear this concept that we're discussing now sometimes referred to as selflessness. And I always had to, if I was going to explain it to somebody, I would say, you know, it's different from selflessness the way we use the word. You know, we use it as generosity. But in Buddhism they mean there is no self. But actually they are the same on some important levels.

C (59:32)

Yeah, say, say more about that. I'm curious.

A (59:36)

Well, if getting over yourself makes you more loving, it is both selfless in the sense that there's less of a self. I'm not so identify with Dan. And it is selfless in the Western conventional term in that I am going to be more generous with my attention with anything.

C (59:55)

Absolutely. And you know, Dan, in this moment, it's also arising for me to acknowledge that someone might be conditioned to think less of themselves, to actually walk around feeling like I'm nobody, nobody cares about me, nobody loves me. Right. Like to already diminish themselves in the way that we would diminish ourselves on the relative plane. So it feels important in this moment to also acknowledge the ego can work in many ways. And by ego, I just am referring to the activity of the conditioned mind that sees itself as separate. So the ego can be puffed up and the ego can be. I'm the biggest piece of shit. Right. So that's not the no self we're talking about. We're not talking about that side of the duality. And that seems important to underline too, for the listeners who, who might be not clear about that.

A (60:58)

Yeah. A pitfall of the path here would be a kind of self abnegation. Or maybe that's why you're so focused on combining these seemingly two contradictory concepts. Self compassion and not self.

C (61:11)

Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. Because what interests me about the work of self compassion is that self compassion, when approached from this recognition of who we truly are, like the heart of who we truly are, it's an invitation to return to wholeness versus I have to use this technique to help me feel a little better. It becomes much bigger than a band aid. In other words, I'm not suggesting. For example, one of the practices that we did at the monastery where I trained early on was we learned the practice of learning how to recognize negative self talk. And then we learned how to apply unconditionally loving reassurances to really retrain the brain. And one of the things that I thought was incredibly impactful once I was learning I was being trained to facilitate retreats as a monastic. I'll never forget my teachers saying we were doing role plays. It's more important that the retreatant has the experience of being the one that reassures the part of them that is hurt or in need. Then it is that that part gets reassured. And I realize now that that's because it's so powerful to recognize ourselves as that which can offer unconditional love.

A (62:43)

Even in that schema though. Even in that. And I've thought about this quite a bit in working with self compassion myself. Like if I'm reassuring myself, who's during the reassuring and who's receiving the reassuring Right. In that is a glimpse of selflessness.

C (63:00)

Krista Neff led a workshop called who is the Self in Self Compassion? And I think that's exactly the glimpse you're pointing to. We realized later that it was too esoteric of a title and we've since changed the title. And now that question is sort of buried in the write up of, you know, we, we lead retreats together and, you know, it's sort of buried a little bit more because I don't necessarily know that it's. That's really helpful to people to lead with that for the same reasons that you've pointed to in this conversation. But that's the glimpse that you and I are Focusing on here, what happens to my practice when I realize that I am unconditional love. I don't even have to work my ass off to try to get better at practicing saying these kind things to myself. I can, if it's useful, to be in a moment of stress. But things really shift when I recognize that I am this fastness, and then when I recognize this fastness is inherently aware, and I would say inherently loving.

A (64:06)

Let's see if we can sneak in one last practice before we run out of time here. There's something you recommend called fleshing out our conditioning. What's that all about?

C (64:15)

Yeah, that practice I spoke with Marissa about a little bit is a practice that's in my book, the Heart of who We Are. And what I got excited about in that book, Dan, is what happens when we take practices, practices like recognizing negative self talk. Practices like seeing our conditioned behaviors, for example, seeing our survival strategies, learning how to return to presence. What happens when we take these and we apply them collectively. So in the book, I focus on how we have what we think of as a personal ego, but we also have a collective ego. And so, for example, I can learn to see my own personal negative self talk, learn how to disidentify from that negative self talk, return to presence. I can also learn how to see the conditioning of an entire group or collective that I identify with. And that's exciting to me because I think we're in a time where we could use the application of personal practice in a collective way. So a practice where I can flesh out my own conditioning, where I can see, oh, I've been taught I'm only lovable if. And then I fill in the blank, or I need to work really hard too, and then I fill in the blank. We can take that same practice as I do in my book, and then we can apply it to a collective we identify with. As a white woman raised in the South, I'm only lovable if. And then I have a very specific answer to that that's different than my personal answer because I'm replying on behalf of a whole collective. So imagine if we could not only see our personal conditioning and disidentify from it, but we could see our collective conditioning and disidentify from it. This, to me, is how we'll realize freedom together.

A (66:20)

I don't dismiss at all the value of doing this collectively, but just selfishly, I'm drawn to it on an individual level. I want to read some of these prompts you have here. You mentioned this one in Order to be loved I need to during times of conflict I should. My parents always taught me that I deserve I'll be comfortable when I'll be happy when that I know I should avoid. Anyway, I'll drop the full list in the show notes, but personally, it feels like it would be very helpful for me to answer these questions because it would be like bringing out of my unconscious many of the habitual storylines that are driving my behavior that I might otherwise not see.

C (67:05)

Exactly. Dan, that's really. Thank you for reflecting that. That's really the whole point is that we get to with a practice like this, and I'm so glad you'll put it in the show notes for people to try out. We get to see what's usually in the shadows through a practice of awareness. We get to bring it forward and not be confused that that's who I am. So again, a practice like this is all in the name of revealing who we've been conditioned to be, which can highlight who we truly are or the heart of who we truly are. Because if we're walking around identified with who we've been conditioned to be all day, every day, it's really hard to even recognize what's there at the backdrop of our experience, this vastness that you and I have talked about. So if I can see how I've been conditioned, if I can catch those automated responses, and for anyone who wants to fill them out, my greatest encouragement is don't give the enlightened answers. Let your conditioning, let the mind of limitation reveal how it's been habituated and how it keeps you in a box. And then if you think it's fun, just go through all those prompts and apply we and let it be. For any collective you identify with, it can be especially powerful if you do this. And then someone who identifies with another collective or uses another collective through the same prompts gets to share notes on that. A lot gets revealed about not only how suffering gets created in a personal way, but how all of this collective suffering that we see as we look around us right now gets maintained, plays out.

A (68:57)

Before I let you go, can you just remind everybody of the name of your book and anything else you've made and put out into the universe that we should be aware of.

C (69:04)

Dan, thank you. The book is. I have two books. One is called A Kid's Book about Mindfulness. And that book, for anyone who enjoyed the part of our conversation where we were exploring this question of who the hell are we really? That kid's book starts with the question who are you? It doesn't say hell in the kids book. So the kids book is called a kid's book about mindfulness and the adult. The book that I wrote for adults is called the Heart of who We Realizing Freedom Together. And that book takes personal practices, applies them collectively. And that book has the backdrop, understanding that who you are is already whole. So you're not. It's not presented in such a way that if you make it to the end of this book, you're going to be better. It's really coming from you're already whole. Now let's play with these practices and then Dan, all the other things on my website by the time this airs should be up to date. And I love leading retreats. And thanks for giving me an opportunity to give a shout out about my various online offerings and and retreats that can be found through caverlymorgan.org awesome.

A (70:14)

We'll put a link to that in the show notes. Caverlymorgan.org CAVERLY thank you very much.

C (70:19)

Thank you Dan. It's been a real pleasure.

A (70:25)

Thanks again to Caverly. By the way, she's putting together a webpage called Things I Wish I Had Said to Dan. So we'll put a link to that in the show notes when it's ready. Don't forget there's a custom guided meditation that comes along with this episode. You can get it if you sign up@danharris.com it's all about how to turn down the volume on the voice in your head. There's a growing library of companion meditations over on danharris.com so go check it out. And next month month we'll be kicking off weekly live guided meditation sessions on video. And our teacher of the month starting in September will be Vinny Ferraro and he'll join me on September 2nd for our first weekly session. And while I'm plugging here, don't forget to check out Meditation Party. That's my in person meditation retreat at the Omega Institute in late October. It's a full weekend, seven days. Lassie, Jeff Warren and Afosu Jones Corte will be there. There's a registration link in the show notes. Finally, I want to thank everybody who worked so hard to make this show. Our producers are Tara Anderson, Caroline Keenan and Eleanor Vasily. Our recording and engineering is handled by the great folks over at Pod People. Lauren Smith is our production manager, Marissa Schneiderman is our senior producer, DJ Kashmir is our executive producer and Nick Thorburn of the band Islands wrote our theme. It.