← 10% Happier with Dan Harris
10% Happier with Dan Harris
On Muscle and Mind: How Strength Training Changes Your Brain, Improves Your Mental Health, and Lengthens Your Life | Bonnie Tsui
01:10:56
What muscles are for, how to get them, and why it’s never too late to start building them. is a longtime contributor to The New York Times and the bestselling author of , a New York Times Book Review Editors’ Choice and a Time magazine and NPR...
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- [00:00]
Bonnie Tsoi
Foreign.
- [00:04]
Dan Harris
This is the 10% Happier podcast. I'm Dan Harris. Hello everybody. How we doing today? Normally I spend a lot of time laboring over a clever framing to these episodes, but my guest today says it way better than I ever could. So I'm just going to kick off this episode by reading a few key lines from said guest's new book. Here they are Muscles deserve more consideration than we give them. We often think about muscle as existing separately from intellect and maybe even oppositional to it, one taking resources from the other. The truth is that our brain and muscles are in constant conversation with each other, sending electrochemical signals back and forth. Our long term brain health depends on muscles and moving them, especially when it comes to aging bodies. I'll just note that everybody's body is aging, so this is true for everybody. This connection between mind and muscle. My guest today, whose lines I just read, her name is Bonnie Tsoi. She's a former competitive swimmer, a current journalist and award winning author. Her new book is called On Muscle the stuff that moves us and why it matters. In this conversation we talk about what muscles are for, what they do, why they matter, the connection between our muscles and our mental health, the many benefits of strength training, how society and culture and history have shaped the way we think about beauty standards and strength Misconceptions about the six pack, which I found reassuring running as a tool for healing, the psychological impact of realizing your own physical potential, the symbolism and science of the push up, the connection between our muscles and our longevity practical advice for beginning strength training, which is tough for many folks, and food habits that support muscle growth. We're now in week three of our month long series which we're calling Get Fit Sanely where we talk about how to take care of your body without losing your mind. Every episode this month comes with a bespoke guided meditation only for paying subscribers. Over on danharris.com today's meditation is called Find you'd swole. Dharma teacher Cara Lai helps you tune into your body with appreciation instead of self criticism, something I myself am still working on. For more information, head on over to danharris.com we'll get started with Bonnie Toy right after this. One of the strangest developments in my recent life is that I have, after a lifetime of not really caring about sports, become a reasonably avid sports fan. Largely if not solely because I have a 10 year old son who's obsessed with sports, specifically the NFL. And my son also has an uncle. My brother in law, the Amazing Jack, is a scout on the Washington commanders. So we're now rabid Washington commanders fans. Which brings me to the point of all of this, which is that the commanders are playing a game in Madrid, Spain this fall. As you may know, the NFL has been playing war games overseas in recent years and so we are now very seriously considering going to Spain and maybe bringing Jack along and maybe Jack's girlfriend and maybe even Jack's mom, my mother in law. In other words, thinking about making a big trip over to Spain to see a football game. And I am very strongly leaning toward getting an Airbnb instead of staying in a hotel. I love hotels, but it's so much more intimate and fun, in my opinion, to stay in an Airbnb because you're not quarantined off in your own room and there are common spaces for mixing and mingling and cooking meals together. It's really a deeper way to travel with people. And here's the cool thing about Airbnb. You can put your home on Airbnb and make some extra cash while you're away, which feels like a smart thing to do. Your home might be worth more than you think. Find out how much@airbnb.com host this podcast is brought to you by Squarespace. Squarespace is an all in one website platform designed to help you stand out and succeed online. Whether you're just starting out or you're scaling your business, Squarespace gives you everything you need to claim your domain, showcase your offerings with a professional website, grow your brand, and then get paid all in one place. Now that I'm in business on my own, I have learned the hard way how important it is to have a good website. We spent a lot of time working on danharris.com and I can tell you that getting your website right makes a huge difference. Squarespace gives you everything you need to offer services and get paid all in one place. From consultations to events and experiences. Showcase your offerings with a customizable website designed to attract clients and grow your business. Get paid on time with professional on brand invoices and online payments. Plus streamline your workflow with built in appointment scheduling and email marketing tools. As we all know, video has become an incredibly important part of of having a business and Squarespace makes it easy to showcase your expertise and engage clients with video content on your website, upload and organize your videos, create stunning video libraries, and even monetize your content by adding a paywall. Perfect for online courses, exclusive tutorials and premium workshops. Check out squarespace.com 10happier for a free trial and when you're ready to launch, use the offer code 10Happier or 10Happier. And to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain. Bonnie Tsoi, welcome to the show.
- [05:47]
Bonnie Tsoi
Thank you for having me, Dan.
- [05:49]
Dan Harris
It's a pleasure. All right, well, I'm going to ask the most basic question, the most embarrassingly basic question is like, how does someone, namely you, come to write a book about muscle?
- [06:02]
Bonnie Tsoi
This is a very good foundational question and one that I think I should be prepared to answer very often once this book comes out. I wanted to continue the conversation of the body that I started with, why We Swim, which was my previous book. I think that muscles were a really interesting weigh in for me. It's one of those everyday things that people take for granted and they think they understand it. Right. But do they really? Do we really? And yet they're how we move. Right. Whether it's the tiniest flea or the biggest whale, muscle is that stuff that propels creatures big and small through their lives. I also have a sort of personal through line that kind of runs through the book, which is that my dad, when I was growing up, my dad was a professional artist and he was also a martial artist. And so my brother and I were, from the time we were in diapers, drafted to join him in the studio. And he was training us up to, as he described it to us recently, I wanted you to be my little ninjas. You know, he's a black Mountain karate. And he, he's just a very singular, special guy. And so we grew up in that environment. I grew up in New York and he had a downstairs studio that was both the art studio and also the place where there were free weights and the barbells and all kinds of hand grips and heavy bags and speed bags and all that stuff, because that's what my dad was interested in. And so that was normal for us. And so muscle. I've been thinking about muscle in both form and function since I was a little kid. And so when it came time to be talking about, oh, what's the next book? This kind of came up. And then for all of us, it just kind of this light bulb went off. Oh, that's it. That's the thing.
- [07:51]
Dan Harris
So your interest is on at least two levels. One, this sort of, I don't want to say academic or maybe just intellectually curious, intellectual curiosity around these things that we all take for granted, but as you say, power, our lives and then also is kind of a way to reconnect with your dad.
- [08:12]
Bonnie Tsoi
Absolutely. I think that's it in a nutshell. And certainly because when I started writing this book, it was during COVID And so my dad lives in China now. When my parents divorced, he moved back to Hong Kong, where he grew up, and then on to Beijing and then in Guangzhou, where he lives now. And, you know, China being the first place to shut down and the last place to open up, it was one of those very strange realizations. Oh, I don't know when we'll ever see each other again in person, like in front of each other. And the sort of backstory to that is that my father's language is in person. You know, it's of the body, it's physical. It's like the hug, the hand squeeze, the eyebrow raise. Like this is just sort of the spar, you know, the spontaneous sparring in the middle of a conversation. And so I kind of instinctively knew that there was a loss there and kind of fear, I think, for myself personally. And I wanted to figure out some project that I could work on in which I would have things to talk to him about because he's also not great on the phone or over email or text based communication. So it really was a little bit of a lifeline, I think, for our relationship.
- [09:29]
Dan Harris
Can you give me, and by extension, Everybody listening. Muscles 101, if I understand correctly, there are three different types of. Of muscles.
- [09:41]
Bonnie Tsoi
Yes.
- [09:42]
Dan Harris
You know, what are they for, what do they do, Et cetera, et cetera.
- [09:45]
Bonnie Tsoi
You got it. You remember that from biology class, right? So muscle is a tissue. It's made up of lots of little fibers, and it's the largest organ in your body. It makes up about 40% of your body weight. As you so correctly mentioned, There are three types of muscle, which I think we all basically know, which is cardiac, smooth, and skeletal. And so for the most part, the book deals with skeletal muscle, which is the muscle that we use to get around and that we control voluntarily. Cardiac is your heart muscle, obviously. Smooth muscle is the muscles that sort of line your organs and like push blood through your vessels and babies out the uterus and like move food through your digestive tract. And for the most part, we're born with a set number of these fibers. And so this was an interesting thing that I learned, which is that muscles grow bigger not by multiplying, not by having those cells multiply, but by recruiting a special kind of stem cell that's like a muscle stem cell that contributes its nucleus or its multiple nuclei to muscle growth and regeneration. So when you lift weights or attack to your muscles, in some way. You know, I think generally people know that you have these little micro tears in your muscles that then repair themselves, and then your muscles get bigger.
- [11:03]
Dan Harris
Right.
- [11:04]
Bonnie Tsoi
And that's sort of how they get bigger. But it's also not just a tissue for movement, like for locomotion. It's an endocrine tissue. And this is something that I didn't know until I started researching this book, which is that it secretes signaling molecules that go all around your body to other parts of your body, like your brain, and tell it to do things. That's sort of the foundation of this question of, like, how does your brain and your muscles talk to each other and why is that important? Which I think is kind of the science is getting into the mainstream world, where the public now knows, like, you have to lift muscles throughout your life to benefit longevity and your brain health.
- [11:44]
Dan Harris
Well, let's go right there, actually, because I think that's really the core of what I wanted to talk to you about, this connection between. There are muscles that we have no voluntary control over, but those we do have control over, we can try to grow them or work them, exercise them. And there is a connection between that and our mental health and our brain.
- [12:07]
Bonnie Tsoi
Yes. So this is sort of where the connection between happiness and movement has its roots, you know, so when you're moving these protein molecules that we were talking about, they're called myokines, and they're released into the bloodstream, and when they arrive at the brain, they regulate all kinds of, like, physiological and metabolic responses in your brain. They can affect cognition and mood and emotional behavior. And so I like to think of them, I say this in the book as a kind of love letter between your muscles and your brain. So when you're moving, especially if you're exercising, but it could be, you know, you're taking a walk, you just get up from your desk and you take a walk and you're outside, or you take a dance class, or you go swimming or you go for a run. This is your muscles sending that love letter to your brain. You know, exercise stimulates what scientists call this, like, brain muscle cross talk, you know, and that includes this formation of new neurons and new synaptic plasticity, which is. That's the basis of learning and memory. And so one of the big takeaways, I think, from the book is that bulking up your muscles literally bulks up your brain. And isn't that great? The whole thing of kids do better in school with pe. It's true. And I loved learning the Hard science.
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Dan Harris
Behind it is the only way to exercise your muscles. Lifting weights or cardio, what we call cardio, is also growing your muscles. So it's not just that you're encouraging people to swing kettlebells.
- [13:38]
Bonnie Tsoi
Yes, yes. Swinging kettlebells is great. Lifting heavy weights is great. And we're learning that. That is a really kind of quote unquote. Strength training, when you're actually bearing weight, is really important throughout our lives, and especially as you get older, just to kind of keep the muscle mass going. But exercise of all kinds. When you say cardio, it's the aerobic stuff, right? So like dancing, swimming, running, like anything that sort of gets your heart rate up and sends those dopamine and endocannabinoids around and makes you feel good. And that is that kind of sense of wellness and that high from movement that makes us happy. That is one kind of exercise. But then there's also the strength training, which is what you're talking about, where there's some kind of resistance to your muscles. And it could be body weight training, too. It doesn't have to be, like, super heavy. When we say heavy weights. And I think, generally speaking, people get a little bit scared off by, like, the lifting of weights or, like, weightlifting. They don't know how to do it. I don't want to injure myself at the gym, but when you're talking about lifting heavy weights, it's really about lifting a weight that's heavy enough with correct form. And this is why you please go to the gym and take a class. Like, talk to a trainer, talk to a physical therapist, talk to someone who can lead you through this to not be afraid of it. And that's sort of like what I always told people about swimming, too, is like, I wanna learn how to swim more. I wanna do more. But what's the first step? First step is to find someone who can introduce you to these things and make you not afraid of it. Just learning the basics to keep you safe. But lifting heavy weights means that, you know, maybe you can do 8 repetitions, 10 repetitions, and, you know, once it gets easier, then you kind of increase the weight. You have to start somewhere. But the flip side of that is that it doesn't take you very long to do that. You don't have to spend hours and hours and hours lifting heavy weights or swinging the kettlebells to get the benefits of lifting that heavy weight.
- [15:30]
Dan Harris
Just to say, from my own personal experience, I didn't lift weights until my late 20s or early 30s, and I just went to a gym, and I signed up for the gym and you got like three training sessions. And a trainer taught me how to lift weights. And occasionally I'll go back trainer to get help with my form or. Now I'm part of a group of people who get together many mornings during the week and work out together. And there's usually somebody in the room who can help me with my form if I'm doing it incorrectly. It's easy for me to get hurt. But I just want to double down on what you were saying, that it's not ridiculously hard or expensive to get some basic instructions on how to lift weights, even though it can be intimidating for some people.
- [16:15]
Bonnie Tsoi
Yeah, I think really the hardest part is that first time and to your point, once you kind of get familiar with all of the things that you can do, and I love that you just said that you do it with a group of friends, because that is the perfect reinforcement. You know, you're committed to each other. It makes it fun, it makes it social, and it makes you want to do it. Because if you don't show up, you feel bad about it, because you have a social obligation to these people and they do to you. And it's something that the activation energy then to do that is way reduced. And so you see that on the calendar. You know that like Tuesdays and Thursdays, you know, you lift with this group of buddies and you're happy to do it. And also, I want to say that the kind of psychological mental health picture is related to that because you start and it's daily incremental gains. It's this sense that, you know, you're paying attention to yourself and very much present with your body in that period of time, and you notice what your body is doing that day. You notice how you feel. Maybe, you know, you're. I don't know. My left shoulder bugs me sometimes from all this paddling and swimming, and I'm kind of like, how does it feel today? Do I need to set my shoulders back when I'm trying to lift this weight? How do I feel as I'm like, marshaling my resources to do this deadlift? And I feel very grounded in my body in those moments, and I think that's the feeling I have been really noticing lately. Because this kind of concentrated lifting weights to kind of support, like, my everyday functional life and the things I want to do is actually relatively new to me. I did it when I was in college. I did it when I was in high school training for swimming, but it was not something that I did very much, you know, in the years since. And so I wanted to connect with you about what you were saying about working out with your friends and this trainer who can correct you every once in a while, which is that, you know, the daily incremental gains make you notice yourself, put yourself in your body, situate yourself there, and then it's like, okay, the next week, the next month, the next year, suddenly you do notice the bigger gains.
- [18:34]
Dan Harris
The word gains. I'm just going to pick up on this for a second. I want to come back to the connection between movement and mental health in a big way. But just since we're on that word. My wife, who is a astute commenter on her husband's behavior, has noticed since I, about nine months ago, started working out with this group of people every once in a while in the morning, which I really enjoy. I like. I love every minute of it. It's so much more fun to do it with a group. It's kind of this circuit training where we're all, like, at a station, lifting weights, doing some sort of strength exercise. Sometimes it's body weight, sometimes it's actual weights, and you're moving around the room. But everybody's very encouraging. I really like the culture of this group. It's run by my friend Strauss Zelnick. He wrote a book called Ageless Fitness. He's about to turn 68 and is ridiculously fit. Most of the people in the room are young, so I'm like, other than Strauss, the oldest person usually, and I love everything about it. And my wife has pointed out that there's been a little bit of an uptick in my comparing mind as it comes to how muscular and fit do I look in the mirror as compared to some of the other people in the room. And that's a thing I've talked about a lot on this show and publicly that I do think the problems of orthorexia, you know, the unhealthy obsession with getting healthy, or the body dysmorphism that can result from working on your muscles. And so I'm just curious, like, how do you deal with that? And does any of this resonate for you?
- [20:16]
Bonnie Tsoi
Yeah, I mean, what you described is real. This fixation on our appearance, what we look like, certainly with respect to muscularity and the ideal body and all that has been ingrained in us since birth. It starts real young. I mean, look at Marvel, superheroes, comic books, like the movies, magazines, like, everything is shouting in your face. This is what you should look like. This is what you aspire to. In the course of researching this book, I noticed there was the Harvard Medical School publication headline that said, you five year old should not be worried about a six pack. I mean, this was nuts. Your five year old boy, specifically, because I think the research is showing that, you know, a lot of young men are experiencing. And there's more attention to it too, right? That boys and young men are also suffering from this messaging that they need to look a certain way or that there's like a muscularity and a body that is what is the ideal and that should be working towards that. And that is like the be all end all of masculinity. Okay? So that's part of this, like negative side of things. I think for myself, I'm not immune to that, right? I'm not immune to what the culture tells me I should look like or what beauty is. But I think because of my strange upbringing with my dad, again, like as an artist and as a martial artist, that he trained my brother and myself up from a young age without regard for gender, age or size. My brother and I are a year and a week and a day apart. So we're pretty much Irish twins, as I like to say. And I think because of that, strangely, I was a little bit inoculated against it. I also think that's where sports from a young age for kids is so huge in terms of confidence and an understanding that function is more important than form or as important. Right? Meaning, like what your body can do and what it's capable of and what makes it do well, perform well on the field, in the pool, on the pitch, like in whatever the arena of sport is, is more important than what it looks like. I spent a lot of time in the book talking, and there's a section of the book on form and it's about kind of breaks down all the stuff that we're talking about like over millennia, you know, like, when did Western culture start thinking muscles were beautiful? Goes back to Greek medicine, ancient Greek medicine versus like ancient Chinese medicine and sort of medical texts. You kind of see where there was like a divergence of like the perception of what a healthy, beautiful body is. You know, like early on, a lot of the texts and the philosophy of like what healthy is and what a body that's healthy does and looks like were much more similar. But there's a divergence that happens. And you kind of see these sculptures in Greek history where there's all these bulges and ripples, where there actually aren't even any muscles. Which is so funny. But there was a kind of understanding that like the articulated body that like kind of looked like this was healthy in some way before they even understood that muscles did this thing, the thing of like moving your body around. And in Chinese medicine there wasn't actually even like a word or character for muscle for a long time. And it was all about qi. It was about like the energy and the flow of energy through the body. And that's sort of like where acupuncture comes from, right? That was healthy. So like a body that was healthy and strong in Greece was Hercules type body. And then in Chinese history it was like, like a yogi with a full belly, you know, where you might be like, oh, that guy has a gut. But it's not, it's just full of qi. It's just interesting to see where all that comes from and that just kind of knowing that history makes you kind of understand that this stuff dates way back before any of the stuff that we're talking about even today. But there's a grounding there. And it's interesting to know that where those ideas came from and how they shape how we think about the, the beautiful body today.
- [24:30]
Dan Harris
Have there been periods of time in our human history where, or cultures where having a larger body is the beauty standard?
- [24:40]
Bonnie Tsoi
Oh, sure. I mean, you look at the classic example for women, right, Is like Rubenesque, like this beautiful, like voluptuous, full, shapely and to me, strong looking woman. I think that there are lots of examples of that. I would be very curious like what the language was at the time to kind of describe that. And if you know someone who was like kind of maybe whip it thin and like very muscularly, they would be viewed as being like underfed or something, right? They're not rich or they're not. It's a sign of that they haven't had the indulgences and the luxuries and the good things in life. To me it's like a, a little bit like when people talk about skin, right? Like that if you're so fair, you haven't been exposed to the sun or that you don't haven't had to labor outside. And so that was like in many cultures and still today, like that's a mark of, oh, this is class station. It's a social indicator of where you are in life.
- [25:35]
Dan Harris
Another thing you explore in the book is just as I'm trying to overcome my conditioning around, I think, a somewhat arbitrary aesthetic standard for men, that you should look like an ancient Greek sculpture Yes. Because just as a side note, like, as I sometimes joke, we would take an archeological dig to find the six pack I had in my 30s. And this is immodest, but my core strength, my ability to do AB exercises is better now than it was in my 30s. I can really get after it. So why am I so obsessed about how it looks in the mirror as opposed to the fact that, like, it is functioning? My body is functioning at a really high level.
- [26:22]
Bonnie Tsoi
Can I tell you something that might make you feel better?
- [26:24]
Dan Harris
Sure.
- [26:24]
Bonnie Tsoi
Which is that I had a UCSF anatomist tell me. So I went to University of California, San Francisco is one of the premier medical schools in the country. And I went there to do well, to observe a dissection. And that is something that used to be a public event that people would go to. And obviously now it's very different. But I think there's something lost in terms of knowledge, right, and understanding of the body and what a normal body or any body looks like underneath everything that we sort of present on the outside. And she said, you know, we have this obsession with six packs and abs. She said, the funny thing is we associate it with fitness, and we associate it with someone who's, like, really fit. And if you have ripped abs, you must be so fit. And she said, the reality is that generally indicates that that person is just naturally lean. So you can see their abdominal muscles. It does not indicate that they are. Have an extremely strong core, necessarily. And so I just went, that's going in the book. People need to know that. I was so curious about all of those assumptions that we have. And what I wanted to kind of peel back was these layers, like, but what does it really show? Is that really true? And one of the questions that I also asked this group of anatomists was if a personal trainer was going to train an actor to be, like a quintessential Marvel superhero, right, for the movies, what are the muscles that they're focusing on? And are those muscles actually really functional for strength? And that was one of the best conversations and episodes in the book. I just enjoyed it so much because they just broke it down and they said, like, you know, like, the deltoids are so, you know, these outer part of your shoulder is, like, so beautiful. And everyone's obsessed with them. But thing is, they're, like, really easy to build up, so they kind of like bulk up quickly. But they're one of 17 muscles that work on the scapula. And in fact, if they're overdeveloped and Your shoulder will get super messed up if you don't work on those other ones. It's like, are these muscles actually the strongest. The biceps. Right. That we think of, or this particular biceps is the stand in for strength. It is an emoji for strength. If you type strength into your phone, it shows up.
- [28:38]
Dan Harris
Yes.
- [28:38]
Bonnie Tsoi
And yet it's only the strongest muscle in the arm when you're making this motion. But if you extend it, there's another deeper muscle that's actually stronger. So it's like all these things that we kind of think about and symbols and character that we attribute to muscle that I just find so fascinating. And so I love that you're thinking and talking about this because we all have all these perceptions of muscles that we wish were developed more or like, associate with our character traits. And I find that to be such like a. It's like a muscle Rorschach test.
- [29:16]
Dan Harris
Yes.
- [29:17]
Bonnie Tsoi
And in fact, I would like to ask you because you've just talked about your abdominal muscles, as I know that you've talked about before as like the one that you're most self conscious about, but what's your favorite muscle?
- [29:28]
Dan Harris
I've never thought about that. What is my favorite muscle aesthetically or in terms of function?
- [29:36]
Bonnie Tsoi
Well, either. I want to give you a few minutes to think about it. If you haven't before, I'll just tell you that I love the shoulders and the shoulder complex because I think of it as swimming, right. Like, I swum my whole life and I think shoulders are beautiful, right? So I think that they not only are functional, so gorgeous, but they also, like, as a metaphor for life, right? Like to shoulder something, to shoulder a burden, to put your shoulders back, square your shoulders, like it indicates a state of being is kind of existential. My, like, writer brain kind of runs away with it. But also, like, physically speaking, I also am like, I'm proud of my summer shoulders. I'm proud that I have swum since a young age and I can out paddle anyone I know, right? For me, I love that set of muscles. And I wondered, I wanted to ask you because you said, okay, abs, but like, I'm like, abs, but what about something that you really like when you go work out with your friends, is there an exercise that comes around? You're like, oh, yeah, this is the one I like because it makes me feel strong.
- [30:41]
Dan Harris
Huh. Well, ironically, actually, it is the abs muscle. When we're doing ab stuff, that's the time in the room when I feel the least far behind because I can actually really Keep up with people on that one. For all the other exercises, I'm usually having to put lower weights next to what everybody else is doing. And I have to say it's a very. And this, this is a shout out to my friend Strauss. It's like a very non judgmental group. It's not a big deal.
- [31:09]
Bonnie Tsoi
We are all our own worst critic, right? Yes.
- [31:12]
Dan Harris
Yes.
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Bonnie Tsoi
Maybe that's it.
- [31:13]
Dan Harris
BTS here behind the scenes. I never get to read people's full books because we have so many guests. The producer who is assigned to whatever episode we're doing always gives me a briefing document. And besides, Eleanor, Eleanor gave me some excerpts from your book and really highlighted the stuff she thought I would be most interested in. So she. I know about your interest in the shoulders and as a writer myself, really empathize with your. The writerly flights of fancy that can go along with it. I don't think it's fanciful, actually. I think it really, it is meaningful and along those lines. And just to invoke Strauss again, every morning of the week he does a workout. I don't go to all of them, but I sometimes do them because he posts in our WhatsApp the Daily Workout. And sometimes I'll do it at home by myself. And yesterday I was doing it at home by myself. And I don't usually work out with my shirt off. I'm not that kind of guy. But it was hot in the room, so I was working out with my shirt off and I was doing slightly bent over lateral raises. I had always thought, because I don't know much about anatomy, that those were for your delts. But as Strauss had explained to me a couple days earlier, actually it's much more for your traps, I guess. Trapezius.
- [32:28]
Bonnie Tsoi
Yeah, your trapezius muscles.
- [32:30]
Dan Harris
And I was looking in the mirror to make sure my form was good because every time my form is off, I hurt myself. I looked up and I saw, wow. Actually, like, I have reasonably well developed trapezius muscles, probably because I swim too. I'm always so careful, even when I see things I like about my body, of not being sucked back into old habits of mine, culturally ingrained habits of mine. But I did take note of the fact that. Oh well, Strauss is very thoughtful about the way he designs these workouts. They're not all for the muscles that you see when you look in the mirror. It's for the full body strength. I wouldn't have ever noticed my trapezius muscles before except for I'm doing this thing where I'm trying to get my form right and looking in the mirror. So that was a long rant that probably takes us nowhere.
- [33:15]
Bonnie Tsoi
But no, the trapezius is actually one of those. The Marvel superhero muscles that they work on to signal strength, FYI. And so you're achieving Marvel superhero sense.
- [33:26]
Dan Harris
But are they useful?
- [33:27]
Bonnie Tsoi
They are useful.
- [33:28]
Dan Harris
Okay.
- [33:28]
Bonnie Tsoi
But maybe not built up to the extent that they do when they're building up a Marvel superhero for a movie.
- [33:34]
Dan Harris
Let me assure you, I am not at Captain America levels.
- [33:37]
Bonnie Tsoi
Yeah. And you don't want to be. You have. You're going to. You're just going to hurt your shoulder. It's not. It's going to be totally out of whack. But I do want to say that it's okay to be proud of that. I also think of this from the perspective of being a woman in the world, which is. And this is also in the book sort of Society over the years, many, many years telling women to be smaller, right? Make themselves smaller in all of the ways. And this is what happens when you have a binary thinking when it comes to gender roles and the sort of equating of man with strength and woman with weakness. Right? And it's a balance of power. It's a power dynamic. And I think it's so interesting when you look over the centuries at what muscular women or women who are physically strong, how they kind of disrupt that, right? They disrupt this binary thinking about gender roles and society being structured on that. Because what then happens, which is so interesting is that power, physical power, extends into power of other kinds, you know, political power and such. But it's not a zero sum thing. If I am strong, you can be strong, too. But I think that zero sum thinking kind of dominates this power dynamic between men and women in society historically, and we kind of see it playing out even now, which is so crazy. But, you know, to have bodily autonomy and physical strength was also to have, like, reproductive autonomy and, like, control over what your body is in the world. And so I do embrace this idea of knowing your own strength and potential and owning that, because I think so many times we tell ourselves not to do that. When I hear you talk about that, I'm like, no, you should own your traps, Dan. So I think that that's actually something that is obviously to a limit. But, like, I think that that is not a bad thing. Categorically.
- [35:43]
Dan Harris
Yeah. You're making so many important and nuanced points here. And just to try to kind of sum it up and put my own top spin on it and See if you agree. I'm going to talk in terms of binaries here and just from the. Don't at me on this. I know I'm doing it just for the purposes of this part of the discussion. Men, we have been socialize to want the Greco Roman ideal muscles where there aren't actually even muscles on the. On the body, muscles on muscles. And so I agree with you. It's nice to be able to see the visible results of the work you're putting in in the gym. And it's a slippery slope. So we just want to be mindful about not obsessing and comparing and trying to wrestle your body into some esthetic that is somewhat arbitrarily set, meaning that you can look a certain way, but it doesn't speak to your underlying health necessarily. On the other hand, for women, there's actually been this, as you've said, and you write about this extensively in the book, there's been these cultural messages that, like, muscles are unattractive and you should be wafer thin or wave thin, either or else at other times it's Rubenesque, but it's not muscular. And I think what you're trying to say is none of us should be obsessing about looking a certain way. And especially for women, there might actually be some real value in taking some pride at developing your muscles in a way that's visible because actually it's a little countercultural and empowering.
- [37:23]
Bonnie Tsoi
Yes, for sure. And I think that is something that is becoming clearer and certainly in, you know, the fitness community that that kind of power and strength is very positive. And I will also say in terms of mental health and sort of physical strength supporting that. There's been a lot of research and science to support that. Weight training has been very useful as an intervention for treating PTSD because it supports a sense of agency and control. And not like control, like in a controlling way, but like a return of control. Because when something bad happens to you, you often feel out of control. Right. You feel very uncertain and everything under you has shifted in a way that really throws your whole worldview out of whack. And I think something like weight training or, you know, and a lot of different kinds of exercise is grounding, as we talked about. And also it's like this discrete thing, you know, without again, veering into the extreme of like, dysmorphia or anything, that polar end of the spectrum where you feel actually that it's taking over your life, it actually can return that sense.
- [38:44]
Dan Harris
Of agency to you that's really interesting. Coming up, Bonnie Toy talks about exercise as a tool for psychological healing, our innate ability to change the psychological benefit of realizing your physical potential, and the power and symbolism of the pushup. The show is sponsored by Liquid iv. One of the things I love to do after I'm done with a work is to rip open a little packet of Liquid iv. They've got these super portable packets that are very easy to rip open and then pour into whatever water delivery system you prefer, like a glass or one of those mugs that all the Gen Z kids are using or a bottle of water. You rip open your Liquid iv, you pour it in there, you drink, tastes delicious and then you feel great. As you know it's peak hydration season, Liquid IV is the perfect companion for your hottest summer plans. Whether you're going to be working out outside or hiking or biking, whatever, pack these little buggers into your backpack and then you'll know that when you need rehydration, it's right there for you. They've just launched a new flavor, Arctic Raspberry. I'm looking forward to trying that. Go to liquidiv.com and use code happier at checkout for 20 off your first order. Just one stick and 16 ounces of water hydrates better than water alone. Powered by Live Hydra Science, an optimized ratio of electrolytes, essential vitamins and clinically tested nutrients that turn ordinary water into extraordinary hydration. Three times the electrolytes of the leading sports drink. Eight essential vitamins and nutrients always non gmo, vegan, gluten free, dairy free and soy free. No matter what your summer brings, tear Pour Live more. Go to Liquid I.com and get 20% off your first order with code HAPPIER at checkout. That's 20% off your first order with Code HAPPIER@liquid I.com I'm not big on trends. I'm not, you know, following the latest from the runways in Paris. But I am big on clothes that feel good and last. That's why I keep going back to quints. Their lightweight layers and high quality staples have become my everyday essentials. Quint says all the things you actually want to wear this summer, like organic cotton silk polos, European linen beach shorts, and comfortable pants that work for everything from backyard hangs to nice dinners. I can attest to that because I have, I think, four pairs of comfortable pants from Quint's and I can wear them when I go to a fancy pants restaurant restaurant or when I'm just chilling with friends in the backyard here. The best part? Everything from Quint is half the cost of similar brands. By working directly with top artisans and cutting out the middlemen, Quint gives you luxury pieces without the markups. And Quint only works with factories that use safe, ethical and responsible manufacturing practices and premium fabrics and finishes. I use this stuff and you should too. Yes, it's true that Quint is a sponsor of the show and they have sent me some free stuff, but I actually go to Quint's and order more stuff because I like it. And maybe this is tmi, but I'm quite into their boxer briefs and their socks. I also have tons of sweaters from them. It's good stuff. Stick to the staples that last with elevated essentials from quince. Go to quints.com happier for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. That's Q U I N C E.com happier Q I N C.com happier to get free shipping and 365 day returns. Quint.com happier. You actually spend a lot of time in the book dwelling on different forms of exercise as a way of psychological healing. There's stuff in there about running specifically as a way to remember and to heal. Do you mind saying a little bit more about that?
- [42:44]
Bonnie Tsoi
Sure. This is in the endurance section of the book. So the book is organized in five different sections and they're kind of these attributes and character qualities of muscle that we admire. Right. So strength, form, action, flexibility and endurance. And endurance is has a lot to do, the stories in there with characters who have used their muscles and specifically running to kind of explore other kinds of endurance. Right. So I had the great fortune of participating in something that was called the Remembrance Run. And so at the time, Koo Stevens was this fastest high school runner, cross country runner in the state of Nevada a few years back. And now he runs at the University of Oregon and is also about to transfer to Washington. And he grew up on the Yarrington Paiute Reservation in Yarrington, Nevada. Tiny high school, was like the only runner on his cross country team. And he grew up with running as something that he was really, really good at, but also in his family. His great grandfather was taken from their reservation to a native boarding school in Carson City. And he was 8 years old when he ran away. He ran away three times, 50 miles through the desert to go home. Because this was something that had happened to a lot of native children of that generation in North America sent to these kind of schools that were meant to take the native part of them away. And we know now of course, that this was incredibly traumatizing and terrible to this community and generations of people who had their culture and families taken away from them and language, you know. And so his great Grandfather, as a 8 year old kid, somehow figured out how to run home 50 miles through the desert, through the mountains. So Koo was eight years old when he heard the story from his dad and went through all these years of running and running success, wanting to be the fastest, you know, to get recognition and become known and be remembered. And so what, he's kind of like used running as a way to kind of think about, like, well, what does this mean to me? What is it to remember? And what is running? What does it tracing our footsteps mean? And so when he was in high school, he retraced that route through the desert from Yarrington to the Stuart Indian School, and then did it three times in honor of his grandfather. And by the third time, they're all, many, many runners joining. And I joined that year and wrote about it in this section of the book because it really is powerful to kind of use your muscles to trace another's path through the world. I think I witnessed the best of humanity on that experience, you know, and if you think about it, the running is so integral to human existence. It is what enabled us to persevere on the Savannah. You know, as Heather Radke, science writer and a friend of mine who wrote the book Butts, she wrote about the gluteal muscle and, you know, like, to succeed on Savannah, she said big, strong gluteal muscles were a must. And it's true. You know, it's this constant state of like falling forward and catching yourself and allowed us to like run down, pray and run upright and do it for a long time without getting tired. So there's this we as humans, it's so funny to think about, like, culturally, we honor running and endurance. We do things, we run to remember all the time. And if you think that's weird, let me point out to you, like fourth of July fun runs and like Thanksgiving turkey trots and runs to raise awareness for everything from like breast cancer, to support your kids, school raise money. And it's like to suffer with your body, to endure is to show that you care. I mean, it's like, you know, we do it all the time and we don't even realize it. And like, it shows. You have skin in the game and it's. I find that when I started to think about that, I just, I could not stop seeing it everywhere. Swim a Thons, runathons, all these bikeathons where you're like, you know, if you think about it, like, why do I give money to someone who's running a marathon to support their cause, when couldn't I just give it to that cause anyway? But something about someone suffering through some experience makes me want to get behind that. If you start picking it apart, you're asking yourself questions like, why do we societally, culturally do that? Like, it is really interesting.
- [47:28]
Dan Harris
Well, along those lines, you also talk about movement as a form of both prayer and community building.
- [47:36]
Bonnie Tsoi
Okay, so this was in the context of collective movement, which the psychologist Dacher Keltner here at UC Berkeley has written about that a lot, about emotions, about awe. And he told me he likes to call this kind of, like, collective movement, this group dancing or sports or. One of the things we talked about was the end of the World Series when everyone comes down onto the field and the team is, like, jumping up and down on top of each other, and it's like this collective effervescence. He likes to. He likes that term. But it's like group movement, because we are tuned into as a species, we are very much communal. And communal movement is a way to honor things, a way to, like, solidify those bonds. Right. You could take it to the extreme by like, going on this, like, ultra run, ultra marathon and showing that it's a way to demonstrate care. I think when Koo decided that he wanted to do that run, he couldn't have predicted that all these people would want to do it with him and to learn and kind of, like, work out their own traumas and stories and show that they care. You know, I think it's, like, a very powerful way to do that. And I was very, very, very much moved by that experience. And I'll never forget. Get it.
- [49:01]
Dan Harris
That sounds amazing. Honestly, I feel some envy because I hurt myself so much. And I talk about this, actually in an episode that will have aired before yours with somebody I really admire, Christiana Wolf, who's a Dharma teacher, Buddhist teacher, physician, and ultra marathoner. And she's older than I am. She's, I think, 56 or something like that. And started doing ultramarathons pretty late in life. And, yeah, I walked away from that interview. And I bet I just can't stop thinking about, I want to do that, but I. I have so many injuries. Tendonitis in my hamstrings and some tendinitis in my biceps. And I've been.
- [49:41]
Bonnie Tsoi
I've been.
- [49:41]
Dan Harris
I'm trying to work on it, yeah. So long way of saying I feel some envy when I hear you talking about that run.
- [49:47]
Bonnie Tsoi
I want to say it is amazing that we can start doing those things at a much later time in life than we could ever have imagined. I just by virtue of doing this book. I have heard so many stories of and met people who didn't start doing regular exercise until, oh, 50s, 60s, 70s. And I think what's incredible about muscle that was revealed to me in part by some of their stories and kind of seeing and hearing about their experiences is that muscle is this crazy adaptable tissue that is so capable of change. And oh, my gosh, I think I was just reading about this woman. It's like Grandma Guns. I think she's on like Instagram or something. I think her grandkid or her son put her on Granny Guns. You know, she didn't exercise, I think, until maybe her 60s, I think she said, and just transformed her life. Started weightlifting and again, because of all these cascades of chemicals that wash over your body and kind of change you over time that we talked about earlier. So many people like her who have started doing this exercise thing suddenly they don't have to take these medications that they used to take for decades or that they can like go up and down the stairs, no problem. Their joints have feel so much better. It's not that they've repaired their joints, but it's like that the juice that is going when you have started exercising that your muscles are producing to kind of send around to the rest of your body to signal it, to do things that are in response, healthy, making magical things happen. I'm not saying this is like the magical cure for everything. It's not. But it is a magical cure for stasis. And we're all capable of change. I mean, isn't that great? Isn't that great to know that, like, even if you start late, that we are capable of this? And this is the thing that kind of keeps me going. It's like the longevity picture, you know, One of my favorite ways I've heard this put is by the Stanford psychologist Kelly McGonagall. She calls it like the pharmacy in your muscles. You know, it's like the second you exercise, even just a couple of minutes in, it stimulates your muscle and your brain and all these other tissues in your body to release this wash of chemicals that changes you. I mean, in very real ways. From a philosophical point of view. I like that the muscles are telling us to do that.
- [52:26]
Dan Harris
There's a lot in the book and you've hinted at it in the preceding paragraphs, but maybe it's worth saying more about the psychological impact of realizing your physical potential. And it's incredible that we can do this way later in our lives than we might have thought. But this is true for anybody listening at any age. There's a real benefit to doing things with your body that, that you might not have thought you could do. So maybe hold forth on that.
- [52:55]
Bonnie Tsoi
Yeah, I mean, how can that not help but spill over into other areas of your life? Let's be real. Like when we get to a certain stage of our lives as adults, we ossify. We are like set in our ways and we like our rhythms and we like our people and we like our routines. And it's just, it's nothing wrong with that. But I think novelty and the sense that change is good is something that I think we all need to kind of poke ourselves to do every once in a while. I fall into that too. You have a comfortable state of being or you're just like, oh, I'm too old for that. But what does that really mean? You know, you like your routine, but does it make you then your outlook on life that you're kind of afraid of anything new? Does it make you less likely to be open to someone proposing a counter opinion to you? Do you not like certain kinds of people now? Do you not like certain kinds of experiences? I don't do that. That kind of a thinking is something that we are all guilty of. We all do it. It happens. It's not anyone's fault. It's just sort of how we're wired. And yet if we are presented with an experience that is new potential for change, something that makes us think, oh, you know, maybe I like that, maybe that's something that I can do. Not like I can't do it. I won't be able to do it. It hurts. But that there's a growth potential on the other side of that, I think that's what I think. This sort of philosophy of muscle is valuable to kind of remind you of.
- [54:35]
Dan Harris
I'm going to read you what I believe is a passage from your book that feels apropos. Weightlifting has also been shown to build resilience in the mind. New research with populations recovering from post traumatic stress illustrates how lifting weights helps people feel more at ease and in control of their bodies. And you talked about this a little bit earlier, but it feels apropos to bring it back now. If you can improve your physical strength in a solid, visible way, it can reframe your self perception. Look what I did, this is evidence that I'm different. Now you can see yourself as a person with agency. And all of this feels relevant to all of us, whether we've had trauma, big T or small T, trauma or not.
- [55:16]
Bonnie Tsoi
Yeah, it was important to write that to highlight that this is not our physical health. Our muscular health is not a frivolous thing. It is actually something that has a lot of wide ranging impacts on your life. I don't think that's an exaggeration. I think that that's real. And I'm not talking about bodybuilding for bodybuilding sake and like getting big muscles so that you look nice. I'm talking about this is, it's like going back to the root of what muscle is in our lives, which is that it animates our existence in this world and moves us around and everything that we're doing, like I'm talking to you, I'm gesturing, thinking. I'm speaking to you with my body and you're speaking to me with yours. When you smile, when you nod, when you tilt your head and you think about, okay, maybe that makes sense. This is how we do life. And so if you support that by supporting the health of your muscles, you're supporting yourself. And again, like what you were saying about like building resilience through physical strength. Yeah, it's true. I think that's basically all I have to say about that.
- [56:26]
Dan Harris
Well, it's, what you're saying is important. This is going to sound like a non sequitur, but I think it does follow. There's a lot in the book about the push up and I want to hear more about the push up. But I do want to just read you back to you again because there's something you wrote about the push up that is very relevant to this sort of psychology of all of this. Every push up was a note to yourself that you were capable of more than you were the day before. These days, when so much of life feels out of our control, something concrete and tangible, however incremental, feels like a small victory. During the writing of this book, I've been doing a lot of push ups and thinking about what it means to do them. Lately I've come to understand that what I learned from my father was not just to lift heavy things, but to lift myself.
- [57:14]
Bonnie Tsoi
I still stand by it, even though push ups suck. Okay, so there's a few different levels there.
- [57:21]
Dan Harris
I like push ups just to say.
- [57:23]
Bonnie Tsoi
Oh, see, that means that you have a full body all around Strength and your core is excellent. What I love about the pushup is many things. So it's a very basic foundational movement, right? You use. You really employ like your entire self to do them and to do them well. And I also love that they're sort of like a mythological. There's a lore behind them, you know, with Jack lalanne breaking the world record by doing like, I don't know, a thousand plus push ups in it's a matter of minutes. And that it's also like this demonized thing. Everyone hates them. Not everyone. Some people like yourself, love them. But that, but it's so basic. Okay, so I was thinking about this when I wrote that passage during COVID when I started writing this book, as we mentioned. And I guess that was like the fall of 2021, and we were all just trying to figure out how to stay sane and not fall into puddles of mush every day. And the push up is something you can do in a very contained space. It's really like all you have to do is be able to lie down on the ground. You know, you could do it where you are, I could do where I am. You don't require anything but yourself. And there's something also great about that. It's just you and your body and the ground and how many times you can go down to meet it and then come back up and go down and come back up. And in terms of a daily practice, if you did do it every day, you would understand that you feel different every day. Different parts of you hurt differently every day. You feel the push up in your neck, your back, your ankle, maybe your wrist is sore. And again, it's like an exercise in awareness. And I actually feel like this also translates to yoga. You know, there's lots of positions in yoga that kind of call on the push up, call on this, like supporting yourself, your body weight on all fours. And just like historically, over time, like I go into this in the book, there's a passage at the end of the book in which someone has asked a character in my book named Jan Todd who was the first woman to lift these Scottish stones of strength called the Dinnie Stones. But she's also not only a world record breaking power lifter and a pioneer weightlifter, she also is a sports historian at UT Austin. And so she gets a lot of questions through the center that she runs there. And one was had to do with the history of the pushup and where did the pushup come from and who did the pushup for the first time. And of course, there's no way of knowing, like, who was the first person to ever do this in the world as, like a way to strengthen body and mind. But she did find this wonderful reference in a book about physical health that did not call it the pushup. And she. And, and. But what it did call this exercise was kissing the ground in equilibrium. And I love that phrase so much. It's like kissing the ground in equilibrium on fingers and toes or something, hands and toes or something like that. But kissing the ground in equilibrium, I think is like a great mantra for living. You are doing this thing that's really hard, as are many things in life. But you appreciate that the ground is there and you go down and meet it and you come back up and you kind of try to figure out how to reach equilibrium, which is, you know, what is equilibrium. You know, you're seeking a kind of, like, resting state in the flux of life. And I just think there's just so much there to think about. And, you know, we're getting a little heady here, but that's a real thing. That's what a push up can do for you.
- [61:05]
Dan Harris
The 10% Happier podcast is definitionally heady, so you're in safe territory. You can get as mystical as you want around here.
- [61:13]
Bonnie Tsoi
The push up is heady and practical. How's that?
- [61:16]
Dan Harris
Yeah, no, I think it's beautiful. Coming up, Bonnie talks about the connection between your muscles and your longevity. Practical advice for getting started with strength training and food habits that support muscle growth. The show is sponsored by Liquid iv. One of the things I love to do after I'm done with a workout is, is to rip open a little packet of Liquid iv. They've got these super portable packets that are very easy to rip open and then pour into whatever water delivery system you prefer, like a glass or one of those mugs that all the Gen Z kids are using or a bottle of water. You rip open your Liquid iv, you pour it in there, you drink, tastes delicious, and then. Then you feel great. As you know, it's peak hydration season, Liquid IV is the perfect companion for your hottest summer plans. Whether you're going to be working out outside or hiking or biking, whatever, pack these little buggers into your backpack and then you'll know that when you need rehydration, it's right there for you. They've just launched a new flavor, Arctic Raspberry. I'm looking forward to trying that. Go to liquidiv.com and use code happier at checkout for 20% off your first order just one stick and 16 ounces of water hydrates better than water alone. Powered by Live Hydro Science. An optimized ratio of electrolytes, essential vitamins and clinically tested nutrients that turn ordinary water into extraordinary hydration. Three times the electrolytes of the leading sports drink. Eight Essential vitamins and nutrients always non gmo, vegan, gluten free, dairy free and soy free no matter what your summer brings. Tear pour live More go to liquid I.com and get 20% off your first order with code HAPPIER at checkout that's 20% off your first order with Code HAPPIER@liquid I.com I'm not big on trends. I'm not, you know, following the latest from the runways in Paris. But I am big on clothes that feel good and last. That's why I keep going back to Quints. Their lightweight layers and high quality staples have become my everyday essentials. Quint says all the things you actually want to wear this summer, like organic cotton silk polos, European linen beach shorts and comfortable pants that work for everything from backyard hangs to nice dinners. I can attest to that because I have, I think four pairs of comfortable pants from Quint's and I can wear them when I go to a fancy pants restaurant restaurant or when I'm just chilling with friends in the backyard here. The best part everything from Quint is half the cost of similar brands. By working directly with top artisans and cutting out the middlemen, Quint gives you luxury pieces without the markups. And Quint only works with factories that use safe, ethical and responsible manufacturing practices and premium fabrics and finishes. I use this stuff and you should too. Yes, it's true that Quint is a sponsor of the show and they have sent me some free stuff, but I actually go to Quint and order more stuff because I like it. And maybe this is tmi, but I'm quite into their boxer briefs and their socks. I also have tons of sweaters from them. It's good stuff. Stick to the staples that last with elevated essentials from quints. Go to quint.com happier for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. That's Q U I N C E.com happier Q-U-I-N-C-E.com happier to get free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.com happier on a more practical level, although the push up is super practical. But this is a little less heady. This question you write about the connection. You mentioned this earlier so I wanted to follow up on it, the connection between our muscles and our mortality, the longevity piece of all of this. And for you earlier, you said that's quite motivating for you. What do we know there?
- [65:16]
Bonnie Tsoi
We know that age related muscle loss, right? And this is something that's sort of been in the health headlines of late, so it's sort of timely. It's called sarcopenia. It's natural, it's normal. Over the course of our lives, we lose muscle mass. But I'm sad to report that it starts in your 30s. So it's a great idea to start lifting weights and start doing strength training throughout your life. Like when you're younger, not when you're confronted with osteoporosis as well, which is the bone loss that's age related. Oh, no, that's osteopenia. But osteoporosis obviously is an extreme loss of that that a lot of, especially women experience. But all of this can be combated and shored up with strength training, both the bone and the muscle stuff. And, you know, there's a lot of work being done with different kinds of ways of increasing muscle mass as you get older because the mass is important, right? So, like we're talking about the stuff on your body, like, not that they're big, but that there's enough of it so that it's basically resources for your body to draw on. And I will say that my, my mom, who is now 78. No, 77. Sorry. She has been going through a lot of health struggles lately where it's autoimmune. But one of the things that a doctor told her was your condition is exacerbated by not enough muscle. And I remember being in the room with her and hearing this doctor say this to her. And I went, what does that mean? And it's that if you don't have enough muscle, your body doesn't have enough resources to fix itself. You know, like, muscle is not just about moving your body around nicely as you get older and having strength. It's that from a metabolic and physiological state and level of things, it is important to the overall functioning of your body in terms of recovering from illness or injury or anything. Whether it's like you have tripped and fallen and you broke something and then you're kind of like, oh, I gotta build up strength again. The stronger you are physically, the more muscle mass you have, the more likely you will be to bounce back from all of that. And same goes for, like, other kinds of disease and illness that may come up, you know, throughout your life. And it's just a fact, if you talk to doctors in a hospital, they will all tell you that getting enough protein, especially amongst their older patients who haven't been thinking about this, haven't focused on it for many, many years. And of course, as you get older, your kind of appetite goes away to some extent. And so you're kind of like, oh, I don't, you know, I didn't really need to eat that much. My metabolism isn't revved up. If you build muscle, your metabolism goes up because your muscles need calories. And so it's all this kind of self reinforcing, virtuous cycle. And so these are a little few of the pieces of this is really important. And I'm not gonna get into the weeds here, but there's a section of the book that is about fall prevention and all this research that's being done on like not just muscle memory, again, there's this new science around muscle memory that is like actually in the cells themselves, not just the motor neurons remembering muscle patterns of movement, but that there is. Muscles themselves are really smart, they're intelligent, they have their own kind of memory and they remember past exercise. So even if you do have periods where you haven't been working out, or you due to life circumstances or injury or illness that you've sort of been laid up, Covid was one of those times too, where people couldn't have their normal routines and then also if they got Covid, they had to recover. But that your muscle cells remember. There's a couple of different kinds of memory in the cell, cellular memory and what's called epigenetic memory, which is that certain genes turn on and off such that your muscles are more likely to bounce back after certain periods of inactivity if you have exercised before. And not only that, it remembers periods of inactivity and there's muscle wasting. I mean, there's all kinds of really interesting signs of like how your muscles remember the things that you do. So the more good stuff you do with them, the more that they will treat you better.
- [69:37]
Dan Harris
This is all so fascinating. All right, let me ask you a bunch of practical questions. I know the book is mostly an intellectual exploration and also an emotional excavation for you personally, but listeners are going to have a lot of practical questions like you've made such a compelling case about the importance of muscle. Where do we begin if we're interested in getting stronger?
- [69:58]
Bonnie Tsoi
Thing one, go to talk to a trainer or take a class. Okay, we talked about this earlier in our conversation, but it is the easiest way to break that seal, get up that activation energy to kind of make this a routine in your life. I'll be frank. And that's the hardest part, but it's also like really exciting. It's a new chapter in your life either to have a friend to walk you through some of the basic things that you could be doing at the gym or get a set of weights for. You could do it at home. I so many of us did it at home during COVID We know it's possible also that we have options. If you can't get to the gym on any one day, you might have a bunch of weights at home that you could do something with with. And just to get the basics, take a class, join a group. And also, it's not just about lifting weights. It's about getting other kinds of activity in your life. It could be like body weight exercises, it could be resistance bands. And also, don't forget about the kind of exercise and movement that makes you happy. I know that there are so many people who are like, I don't really like exercise, but there are things that you like that bring you joy, that involve moving your body. Dance or it could be some other play based movement. But I think the important thing is to just start with that. Start with trying to figure out what is the way that will bring you joy. And also your community will support you in that because that is like the easiest way where then it becomes a part of your life that actually makes you happy instead of dreading, you know, going to go lift weights at the gym. There are so many different ways to do that and to not be afraid of it. Because, you know, we all have a body, we all occupy a body, we all have muscles that could use a little action. And that all comes back to benefit you.
- [71:41]
Dan Harris
That was all beautiful. And I just want to highlight a couple of things you said just based on my having done, you know, so many interviews on the show with experts in habit formation and human behavior change. The finding something you like is really important.
- [71:57]
Bonnie Tsoi
It's so big.
- [71:59]
Dan Harris
I'm a mutant. And I think you and I are probably both mutants in this way. In that, like, I like so many forms of exercise. It's not hard for me to get to the gym, but I recognize that that's not true for everybody. And so like my wife, we were married for many years, even though she's a physician, never really was into exercise for a whole bunch of complex reasons. And I dragged her to Soul Cycle, which I honestly didn't even like that much myself. I like spinning, but I wasn't super into SoulCycle because of all the stylistic stuff around it. Although I have to say I've become friends with the women who founded and then sold SoulCycle, and I really like them a lot. Anyway, it was somewhat ironic that I bullied my wife into coming to SoulCycle, but she then fell in love with it and. And it changed her so much.
- [72:46]
Bonnie Tsoi
She found her people wasn't so much.
- [72:48]
Dan Harris
Actually about the people it was about. She just found that the form of movement she enjoyed.
- [72:52]
Bonnie Tsoi
Yeah.
- [72:52]
Dan Harris
Context in which she enjoyed it, which was. It's totally dark in that room and nobody can see or judge her.
- [72:58]
Bonnie Tsoi
Right.
- [72:58]
Dan Harris
You know, unfortunately, she's had some subsequent health problems, so she's had a couple years where she hasn't been able to get in motion. And I've been thinking about her a lot in the course of this discussion. But. Okay, so. But finding joy in what you do, finding something you really like. So I just wanted to double click on that and then also doing it with a group or just one other person. I started going to SoulCycle a ton because my wife was going, and I like hanging out with my wife, so I went. She would sometimes do two in a day, and I would do them with her. She's actually quite naturally, unlike her husband, really good athlete. It was very common for us to be leaving SoulCycle and for the teacher to stop her and say, you know, I'm just watching you. Your form is so good. They never even made eye contact with me during those conversations. But doing it with my wife was very motivating. And doing it now with the aforementioned Strauss, Zelnick and his crew of friends. And there's a ton of evidence to show that what psychologists call social support is really, really, really helpful when it comes to this diabolically difficult endeavor of habit formation. Okay, just a few other practical questions for you. Eating. Now, eating is a very difficult subject because it's got all sorts of, you know, there's all sorts of unhealthy messages sent to us about, like, what we should eat. And I do want to say about Strauss, like, Strauss eats dessert like he's a normal person. What are the guidelines, generally and gently that we should have in our minds for eating in a way that supports muscle strength?
- [74:31]
Bonnie Tsoi
I am an omnivore. I love eating. I subscribe to the everything in moderation, including moderation. That's. My husband loves to say that. And he has a huge sweet tooth. And I, you know, and I agree with that. So in terms of eating to support muscles and your muscle health, I mean, obviously you need to have protein, but chances are you are getting enough. To be quite honest, I don't think you should obsess about it too much. Just make sure you're having some. Somebody was telling me, oh, you need to be having the equivalent of how many grams of how much you weigh times X. And I was just like, that's a lot. And he's like, that's three chicken breasts a day. I'm like, that's a lot of chicken breasts. I think just making sure that you have some, it's going to be different for everyone. But just to make sure that you're having some protein for maybe a couple of your meals, where that does figure prominently is just sort of my ballpark. But also eating all the other things, eating all the vegetables and grains and complete proteins or like rice and beans. You know, I'm not a dietitian. I'm not going to tell everyone what to eat, but I do tell you what works for me and what I like. My general outlook on it is that I do pay attention to it, but I don't pay too much attention to it.
- [75:42]
Dan Harris
Yes, that sounds fucking perfect. As Bonnie knows and as the producers know, I did the rudest thing I've ever done in the course of a podcast interview today, which is I ate my lunch while Bonnie was talking at the beginning of this conversation. Because I had. My day has been such that I wasn't able to eat until right now. And my lunch had tuna and egg and a bunch of vegetables in it.
- [76:07]
Bonnie Tsoi
I was going to say, that was a really good lunch and now I'm hungry and I want to eat that lunch.
- [76:12]
Dan Harris
Yes, it was a healthy lunch, but I'm going to have some gummy bears too, afterwards. Being omnivorous, not being overly abstemious is important. The final question before I ask my habitual two final questions is what about things like creatine? I don't even really know what creatine is, but somehow I've been wondering about it recently because I hear it mentioned within the context of muscle building.
- [76:37]
Bonnie Tsoi
I think generally speaking, people, meaning people who know what they're talking about, doctors and, you know, sports, physical fitness, folks. Generally speaking, it's not a bad supplement to have. I actually started taking it, I don't know, six months ago. I haven't noticed anything crazy or different, but I think it's something like 3 to 5 grams. It's on the package. I think it's grams like milligrams is really little, 3 to 5 grams, depending on, you know, your size and in terms of what your goals are. But I'm 48. I'm a woman. I know how important it is to get enough protein to support muscles at this point because they're just. If you do read the news, it's kind of like they're falling off my body as I'm walking down the street, which I hope is not true, but it does feel like that. So I don't want to be alarmist. I think it is something that you should ask your doctor about because you might have some underlying medical health reasons not to do that in terms of your body processing it. But I think creatine is actually generally considered pretty safe and is not one of those supplements that, you know, you would think about with bodybuilding that has a bad effect on you, that has many, many decades of research on it. So I think it's a pretty good option if you're thinking about doing that. I forgot the other question.
- [77:57]
Dan Harris
No, no, that was the only one. I have two I'm going to ask you now. One is, is there something that you were hoping we would get to that we haven't gotten to somehow at this point?
- [78:07]
Bonnie Tsoi
I don't think so. I've had so much fun talking to you and I, including and not excluding your, your lunch, which really supported our conversation greatly, I think.
- [78:22]
Dan Harris
No, I've enjoyed this immensely. And so the final, final question is you just remind everybody of the name of your new book, the name of your old book, and any other stuff you're doing in the world that we should know about.
- [78:33]
Bonnie Tsoi
Yes. I'm going to flash this in case this is being visible to the public on Muscle, the Stuff that Moves Us and why It Matters. It comes out April 22nd. My last book was why We Swim. And you know, I'm kind of girding my loins for the baby coming out into the world as we speak in this publishing world. And I'm just really grateful for your time today and support that you're giving to my work and me. It really means a lot.
- [79:02]
Dan Harris
I'm grateful for your time, for your work, and it's a pleasure. And I'm also grateful for your forbearance as I mouth a salad in front of you while you spoke so eloquently previous to.
- [79:14]
Bonnie Tsoi
I think when we started recording, I said, Dan Harris, he's just like us. And that makes us happy.
- [79:24]
Dan Harris
All right, Great job, Bonnie Soy. Appreciate you.
- [79:27]
Bonnie Tsoi
Thank you, Dan.
- [79:32]
Dan Harris
Thanks again to Bonnie Tsoi. Great to talk to her Before I let you go, two things. First, don't forget that every episode this month during our Get Fit Sanely series comes with a companion meditation, a bespoke meditation from Cara Lai. Today's meditation is all about how to tune into your body with some appreciation instead of self laceration, which is a key skill I am still working on. Head on over to danharris.com and you can grab today's companion meditation. And also if you become a member, you'll get lots of other cool stuff including free transcripts for every show, the ability to chat with me and my team, and crucially, twice monthly, at least twice monthly live guided meditation sessions where I got a meditation and then take your questions. Second thing I want to do before I let you go is I want to thank everybody who worked so hard to make this show. Our producers are Tara Anderson, Caroline Keenan and Eleanor Vasily. Our recording and engineering is handled by the great folks over at Pod People. Lauren Smith is our managing producer, Marissa Schneiderman is our senior producer, DJ Cashmere is our executive producer, and Nick Thorburn of the band Islands wrote our theme.
- [80:49]
Bonnie Tsoi
If you want to feel more connected to humanity and a little less alone, listen to Beautiful Anonymous.
- [80:54]
Dan Harris
Each week I take a phone call from one random anonymous human being.
- [80:59]
Bonnie Tsoi
There's over 400 episodes in our back catalog.
- [81:01]
Dan Harris
You get to feel connected to all.
- [81:03]
Bonnie Tsoi
These different people all over the world. Recent episodes include one where a lady survived a murder attempt by her own son.
- [81:10]
Dan Harris
But then the week before that we.
- [81:11]
Bonnie Tsoi
Just talked about Star Trek. It can be anything. It's unpredictable, it's raw, it's real.
- [81:16]
Dan Harris
Get Beautiful Anonymous.
- [81:17]
Bonnie Tsoi
Wherever you listen to podcasts.