B (6:04)

It's an absolute pleasure to be here with you today.

A (6:07)

Likewise. All right, let's start with the nervous system. We've covered this a little bit on the show before, but I think it's always good for me and the listeners to be re educated on this subject. Can you give us the broad brushstrokes of the nervous system, sympathetic nervous system, parasympathetic, et cetera, et cetera?

B (6:26)

Yes. In terms of broad brushstrokes, there are two main branches of the nervous system. So sympathetic and parasympathetic. Sympathetic has nothing to do with sympathy. It actually is the part of the nervous system that mobilizes us for action. And and at the extreme end of the sympathetic nervous system is the fight, flight, response. The parasympathetic nervous system is a branch of the nervous system that's responsible for rest and digest. It's the stillness in safety and connection. And at the very low end of the parasympathetic nervous system is a branch known as the dorsal vagal branch. And that is the branch that immobilizes us in service of resource conservation. And at that very extreme end, that is the flaccid immobility of opossum that's been attacked by coyotes, for example, where the lights are on, but there is absolutely no one home in broad brushstrokes. These are the two main branches of the nervous system.

A (7:29)

So I had always thought this is another illustration, as if any were needed of my ignorance. But I had always thought that sympathetic nervous system was all the freak out went in there and parasympathetic was like the good stuff, but what you're saying is actually there's a range, There's a part of the parasympathetic nervous system that is I guess what you might call fawning or something like that.

B (7:53)

I call it collapse. It's flaccid immobility. So there's no muscle tone in the body whatsoever. Think of it as a slider switch for a light switch. You know how you have the dimmer switch where you can have the lights all the way on and then you're gonna have the lights all the way dimmed down? So at the extreme end of the lights dimmed down is the flaccid immobility. Yeah. However, you know when there are some lights on but they're not fully on, you could think of that as the overwhelm of I've got barely any gas in the tank, but I'm still going. So think of a car that is in limp home mode, where your car has very little gas in the tank, the car knows it, and the car won't even let you put your foot down on the accelerator to really gas unless you jam your foot all the way down. And so that's part of the resource conservation is I'm trying to keep my head above water, but there's no juice in the tank. And then eventually there is no juice in the tank at all. Yeah. So that's the extreme end, the flaccid immobility.

A (8:57)

I did cut you off though, and you were in the middle of talking about the broad brush strokes of the nervous system.

B (9:03)

Yes, There's a branch that's within the parasympathetic branch of the nervous system known as the ventral vagal branch. And so this is the branch where we have the capacity for being socially engaged, where I can be with myself and with you I can deal with life and I can feel life. And I'm not stretching myself exorbitantly in order to be able to access my capacity for curiosity, compassion, creativity and connection.

A (9:33)

When you say ventral vagal, I assume that's a reference to the vagus nerve, the so called wandering nerve that comes down from our head and goes throughout much of the body. But maybe give us a little description of what ventral vagal means technically.

B (9:52)

So this is the branch of the vagus nerve that connects to the lungs, the diaphragm, the heart, the vocal cords, our capacity for facial expression. It's the social engagement system. It's also been coined as the face to heart connection.

A (10:12)

So let me see if I can restate it just to make sure that I've got it. The sympathetic nervous system is what we might think of as fight or flight.

B (10:21)

At the far end of it. Yes, at the far end of it.

A (10:25)

But even at the not so far end of it, that might be the sort of background static of stress that many of us feel in our lives.

B (10:35)

Yes. And so if we go to the low end of the sympathetic branch of the nervous system, this is where I have juice in the tank so I can mobilize my body for play, for work, for moving around in the world, for engaging with other people, for going to CrossFit classes, for being able to get things done. And then when that slider switch goes up even more, I might start to feel the edges of manic, frantic anxiety, distress, stress and distress. Starts to become a little bit haywire. And then if that slider switch continues to move up, then I get towards the fight and flight.

A (11:14)

Got it.

B (11:15)

Yes. And then freeze. There are two versions of freeze. One is where the sympathetic and the dorsal branches meet each other. Where it's like I have a foot on the gas pedal and a foot on the brake pedal at exactly the same time. Yeah. Where I'm wired and tired. Where I have so much energy in the nervous system in service of survival, and yet everything about me says, be small, don't move. And this is the person in meditation class who comes into class, sits at the edge of the room. It takes every single cell in their body to be still. And then as soon as class is over, boom, like, they are out of here. Because it just takes so much to be still in order to survive. This is also the deer in the headlights, the bunny rabbit in the headlights, where there's that felt sense of threat, felt sense of danger, felt sense of unsafety. And yet the survival response says, be still, be still, be still, be still. And as soon as the whiff of the sniff of that threat has passed, boom, I get myself out of here. That's the tonic immobility. And then the other version of freeze is where we slide down into dorsal right. That's the far end of the parasympathetic nervous system. That's where the light switch has moved all the way down. And that's where we then experience the lights are on, but no one's home. No, it's the ragdoll. It's the resource conservation. It's the imminent death will be less unpleasant if I am checked out and already out of here.

A (12:56)

And remind me, ventral vagal, which you described as the good stuff. That's a branch of parasympathetic or sympathetic.

B (13:06)

That's a branch of the parasympathetic nervous system.

A (13:09)

Okay, so there are a couple of good spots I'm hearing. Well, just to step all the way back. As I said before, I had been laboring under the misunderstanding that sympathetic nervous system bad. Parasympathetic nervous system good. But actually, what you're saying is their ranges, their spectrums, and they each have their good parts and bad parts. So it sounds like, for example, with the sympathetic nervous system, at the negative end is fight or flight. And at the positive end is kind of a healthy leaned in. Let's go to crossfit mode. And with parasympathetic rest and digest, there's the unhealthy, where you're. The lights are on, but nobody's home. And then there's the really connected, plugged in branch that's called ventral vagal. Is that a decent summary?

B (14:03)

You got it, Dan. You got it. And if I could encourage perhaps a reframe. So rather than looking at it in terms of good or bad, Think of it as the nervous system responding in appropriateness to what is happening in our environment. So we want our fight flight to kick in. If there is a danger or a perceived danger in. In this current moment, we want to be able to switch everything off in terms of our capacity for calculus, Our capacity for fine motor skills, Our capacity for being able to speak in poetic language. We want to become demanding and commanding and think about right here, right now, and how do I get myself out of here? And so these branches of the nervous system Exist for a reason, and that reason is protection and survival. It goes haywire, though, when we misperceive what is happening in the current moment Through a lens of perhaps past unpleasant experiences. And it can also go haywire when we've experienced prolonged stress, Prolonged overwhelm.

A (15:18)

So going haywire is when the nervous system Is reacting inappropriately to what's happening in the environment.

B (15:27)

Yes, reacting disproportionately. So there may be a disproportionate response to whatever is happening in the environment. And this nervous system is meant to help us survive out on the savannah. And so we're not meant to survive. We're not meant to live in such a way where there's prolonged stress. And so if we look at the holistic definition of trauma, we often think of trauma as too sudden of something. Something is overwhelming, like being in the military or being a sexual assault survivor. However, a holistic definition of trauma Is too much or too Little of something for too long or not for long enough. Right. It might be something good that you didn't get enough of or long enough of. Yeah. Without adequate time, space, permission, protection, resources, or resourcing for the nervous system to return to homeostasis. And as a result of this trauma, survival responses get stuck in the nervous system, in the body, as well as in the personality and in the psyche. We're not meant to live under circumstances of prolonged stress. That's not our evolutionary biology.

A (16:50)

Which is why modern life can make us sick.

B (16:53)

Correct. And I hear so much empathy and compassion in your voice as you say that.

A (16:59)

Are you sure it's empathy and compassion or self absorption?

B (17:03)

It can be both. And that can also be, okay.

A (17:07)

Maybe self pity. Whoa.

B (17:12)

You know that pour me, pour me, pour me a drink. Can also be part of how we survive. Right. And so, like trauma is adaptation. Prolonged stress causes for us to adapt. And some of the ways in which we adapt are healthier than others.

A (17:27)

Very helpfully, I think dwelling in the realm of the definitional, we've talked about the nervous system, then you moved us into trauma a little bit, which leads me to this question. You've used the word trauma, you've used the word stress. We also are going to talk about burnout. What are the differences among these terms? Trauma, stress, burnout.

B (17:50)

I think of it as a continuum. So there's stress, there's distress, and then there's traumatic stress. How one experiences the circumstances in one's life very much depends on one's capacities, protective factors, as well as lack of protective factors. So not all stress is bad. Right. If there is challenge by choice, if there is stress that I know I have the capacity to move towards, I feel like it's a challenge. I know how to ask for what I need. I have the confidence there. Then this is also known as eustress. E U S T R E S S yeah. And this can then help build our sense of confidence and competence in the world. However, if that's prolonged, if there's not enough protective factors, if there aren't enough people there for us, then it can become distress. And what happens in that space in the interim is that our strengths, our innate gifts and capacities kick into high gear. And what distress can do and what prolonged stress can do and what traumatic stress can do is it can turn our innate strengths into weaknesses. All strengths taken too far become a weakness. So say, for example, you're someone who naturally is good at finding the answer. Add some prolonged stress or distress or traumatic stress into that Then you are all alone in finding the answer. And then that becomes a gift that has helped you to survive. You've been able to turn up the notch on that gift and eventually it becomes a weakness. Because it prevents us from authentic intimacy in our interpersonal relationships. Because we aren't able to allow the other person to contribute towards us and contribute towards co creating a life that we both want to find co creative solutions for. So you might be a naturally confident person, you have a sense of confidence and competence and you add prolonged stress, distress, traumatic stress to that, then this can result in that strength becoming a weakness. We start to engage in one up relationships, we start to become demanding and commanding and controlling. We're always taking the lead and we actually don't know how to allow other people to have a voice. Especially when the circumstances and context that we're in becomes more and more stressful and we default to the strategy that caused us to survive. And yet that strategy prevents us from living in authenticity and intimacy in our intimate partner relationships as well as beyond intimate partner relationships. Our teams, our family systems, our very high functioning, tightly run workplace units that operate under stress. You might be a naturally caring person. And if we add prolonged stress, distress, trauma, then those naturally caring tendencies mean that I take care of you before I take care of me, and that may be how I survived. And then eventually in intimate partner relationships in our workplaces, in our family and friends circles, it gets in the way of authentic intimacy because I can't allow you to get to know me and allow my needs to also take up space in this world.

A (21:28)

I hear a briar patch here, a downward spiral that is really sticky and hard to get out of. Because prolonged stress, distress or traumatic stress can turn our strengths into weaknesses, damaging our relationships. And relationships are often the way out of stress, distress and trauma. So you're just fucked if you get too far down this road.

B (21:55)

Yes you are. Because as you get further down this road, it then becomes about me surviving. And so aloneness, that sense of I have to endure this or make my way through this all by myself because there's no one there for me, starts to kick into higher gear and higher gear and higher gear. And you're right, Dan. It becomes a briar patch of an entangled terminal uniqueness and terminal aloneness that requires us to actually ask for help. And that is then the last thing that any of us feel, that we have capacity for, because we have learned to cope all by ourselves very well.

A (22:35)

Okay, so we've talked about stress, distress, traumatic Stress. I just want to make sure we don't overlook burnout. Where does that fit in all of this?

B (22:45)

That fits into this in so many ways. So let's start with the setup for burnout. So if you've had to hunker down, do things all by yourself, perhaps take care of other people's needs before your own. This happens within a family system as a child, and within that family system as a child. There may have been not enough experiences of being delighted in being wanted versus being needed, then becomes messy. And it's every child's birthright to be delighted in, because for an infant, a toddler, a child, when we know that our caregivers take delight in us, then we know that they're going to protect us. And when that doesn't happen, we surrogate, we substitute with being needed with being useful. Particularly framed in a society that says, be useful, don't be lazy, you must contribute. And then being needed means that we don't get minimized, overlooked, left behind. We might get validation and attention and approval for all the ways in which we are useful and helpful. And then being wanted versus being needed versus being exploited becomes a very slippery slope. I, as a mental health provider in my early days, it felt so good to have a wait list, because that made me feel like I was useful and needed and wanted in the world. And yet that became part of the road towards burnout, because my patients, my clients, aren't here to compensate for what I didn't get enough of in childhood. And no matter how much they need me, it's not going to fill me with that feeling of truly being wanted. And for some of us, that feeling of truly being wanted and delighted in is so painful that we push against compliments. We can't take in positive anything from anyone about ourselves. We keep moving forward. We might get achievements, we might get accolades professionally in our careers, and yet we still can't take it in, and yet we really want to. And then we actually end up pushing against those very people who see so much value in what we offer. And on top of that, the growing amount of workload that we have continued to heap upon ourselves or that systems have continued to heap upon us. And then you have the complexity of scenarios that emerge within certain professions, which is why you have a huge amount of physician suicide. You have incredibly high rates of healthcare professionals opting out of the profession. And these days, I actually don't call it worker burnout. I call it institutional exploitation, because you get really good people who have come from a whole Variety of backgrounds and circumstances that mean that they want to care, want to contribute, and then we have systems that take advantage of that.

A (25:43)

There's so much you said there that I want to react to, But I do want to make sure that I understand just technically, the differences among these terms. So I'll take a stab at it, and you'll tell me if I'm correct. I'm pretty positive I won't be, but stress is chronic activation or even episodic activation of the sympathetic nervous system. Burnout would be when that becomes too much and we start getting into unhealthy behaviors in order to deal with it. And trauma is at the extreme end of the spectrum when something too much, too fast, or too little of a good thing in our history. Am I in the ballpark?

B (26:30)

You got it, Dan. You're also exposing to me the ways in which I am terrible at offering definitions. So thank you. I really appreciate this. So, yes, stress can be chronic. It can be episodic, episodically chronic. We get used to it, right? Our strengths kick into high gear. We might find ourselves getting irritable at the people closest to us because we're doubling down on, trying to get over this hump or this hurdle. And then when that stress becomes prolonged or continued, perhaps protective factors in our lives disappear, perhaps the distress continues. Then our nervous system starts to move towards not being able to. And so then what some of us do is we double down even further and we start to ignore all of our relationships in our lives. Because I could work or I can have relationships, but I can't do both at the same time, Especially when I'm heading towards a higher end of stress. My sleep gets terrible. My digestive system starts to not be able to digest even the good foods that I'm giving to it. My elimination systems become challenged. I'm persistently dehydrated, I'm running on empty, and perhaps I start to double down even further, or I go towards less healthy coping mechanisms. And then eventually, the body says no. And then I go into a retreat, collapse, withdraw. I need two weeks off so I can recharge, reboot, so I can head back to work. And so the nervous system in that stage of burnout is going back and forth between, I can, I can, I can, I can, I'm overriding. And then, oh, my God, I need to totally check out in order to recoup and recover. And then I'm going back into I can, I can, I can, I can. And then I'm ricocheting back and forth, while being somewhat in denial about the systems around me that are colluding with me, perhaps offering me retreats, giving me money and staff incentives in order to be able to recoup so that I can get back into things and keep going, going, going, going, going at a pace that is falling far, far too unsustainable. And yet we might be caught up in the glamour and the achievement and getting things done. There might even be a teamwork and a camaraderie around this and all the things we've been able to do with such little resources. And yet this is when it starts to become cultural and systemic and can be incredibly hard to get ourselves out of.

A (29:12)

Did you say. You said a lot there. That was really interesting. But one thing I'm picking up on is, did you say that when we're in a state of chronic stress or burnout, we get constipated?

B (29:22)

Yes, because we're dehydrated and our body is also in the fight or flight as an animal in nature. If you're taking a crap in nature, you're actually really, really vulnerable because the entirety of your system actually has to be relaxed. And so in that state of absolute relaxation, you're not able to mobilize, to take someone else down or to run away. And yet we need to be totally relaxed in order to pass a bowel movement. And so if my nervous system is in chronic stress, there is no way I can relax enough to, like, sit down and relax and take a crap. And so I can go back and forth between being constipated and then having diarrhea. And I see you nodding and laughing.

A (30:07)

Dan, is this familiar for I'm laughing just because I'm 53, but basically a 7 year old. And anytime people talk about poop, I think it's funny.

B (30:20)

Yeah, you know, it's actually when I'm working with children, which isn't very often these days, however, I actually, instead of asking about the stress in their lives or what their home lives are like, I will actually oftentimes ask about. About pooping and I'll ask their parents about pooping as an indication of the nervous system of the child and whether the child is able to relax.

A (30:45)

Coming up, Linda talks about how to figure out if you're stressed, burned out, or traumatized. What's the difference? How do we know? And also, crucially, we talk about some tools for everyday resilience. Few things feel better than knowing someone's looking out for you. That is the spirit behind the AT T guarantee. Staying connected matters. That's why AT and T has connectivity you can depend on or they will proactively make it right. That's the AT T guarantee, because connection should be dependable, especially in the moments that matter most. Terms and conditions apply. Visit att.com guarantee t for details. @&t connecting changes everything depending on where you live. The cooler temperatures are rolling in and if it's not happening right now, it's going to happen soon. It always does. And Quint is where I'm turning for fall staples that actually last from cashmere to denim to boots. The quality holds up and the price still blows me away. Quint has the kind of fall staples you will wear. Non spoilers top like super soft 100% Mongolian cashmere sweaters starting at just 60 bucks. I've got like four of those going to bring those out of the back of the closet to start wearing again now that fall is here. Their denim is durable and fits right and their real leather jackets bring that clean classic edge without the elevated price tag. What makes quints different? They partner directly with ethical factories and skip the middlemen so you get the top tier fabrics and craftsmanship at half the price of similar brands. I was at a party last night. I was wearing my quince pants which fit really well. They look good, not too tight, just the kind of thing a man of my age craves. I've got many many quints go to's. Aside from the aforementioned cashmere sweaters, I also wear quince sweatpants on the regular often while I'm doing interviews for this podcast. Keep it clean, classic and cool this fall with long lasting staples from quint go to quint.com happier for free shipping on your order and 365 days returns. That's Quincom happier free shipping and 365 day returns quint.com happier this may sound like such an obvious question. I apologize for it, but I actually think it's going to take us somewhere useful. How do we know if we're stressed or burned out or traumatized? Like is there a way to self diagnose for this? And maybe it's as simple as how's your pooping going?

B (33:32)

I would start with a physical and physiological I love the home based biometric devices, the wearable devices that will give you an indication of your heart rate, variability of your heart rate, your blood pressure that measure your amount of sleep and the quality of your sleep. I would also ask the people in your life, how do they know when you're stressed? What are the phrases that you say that give them a sense that you're stressed. What are the things that you won't do or reject doing or that you do as a way of relaxing from the stress that you're experiencing. Our capacity for connection tends to go down the more stressed we are. And so that can also be an indication with prolonged distress. This is where also feedback from people in your life is important. And this is where the physiological signs also can give us an indication of whether we are overriding the body and overriding the nervous system. This is where there may be a visit to the dentist and the dentist may say, have you been grinding your teeth at night while you're asleep? It's the more in depth physiological conditions that start to emerge where because our bodies and our nervous systems are mobilizing all the time, then our cholesterol goes up, we start to move towards pre diabetes because the body is flooding the bloodstream system with instant energy in the form of sugars and things that are quick to digest, quick to metabolize. We might find ourselves eating comfort food. And comfort foods are typically foods that are very easy to convert into instant energy. You might find yourself getting weight gain or weight loss that is not in alignment with the amount of energy output and caloric input. There's also a lot of weight gain around the midsection area of the body because the body is saying, oh no, I have to actually hold on to calories as much as possible because if we're going to be living this way, then I need to be sure that I will always have enough calories. And on the converse side of that, for some bodies, it's a case of I'm not going to put on any weight at all. If anything, I'm going to shed excess weight because this is a marathon and I am going to be as lean as possible given that this is a marathon.

A (36:20)

You mentioned wearables. I have an Apple watch. Not getting paid by Apple, but just to say that. So I'm not. You can wear whatever wearable you want. I do feel like I can take it too far and get a little obsessive about looking at the various numbers. I heard an interesting comment recently. I'm not sure if you're familiar with this guy, Peter Attia, who's kind of the. Yeah, you're nodding your head. Peter wrote a book called Outlive. He's got a podcast called the Drive, and he's one of the best known longevity scientists. He's kind of like the name I think of when I think of hardcore Optimizers who are, you know, trying to get healthy. I was with Peter at an event recently, and somebody asked him, what area of wellness do you allow yourself not to do? And he said, I stopped tracking my sleep. I really took notice because I've noticed that I can get a little obsessive about looking at my sleep numbers. And then my wife asked me the other day, how'd you sleep last night? And I heard myself say, I haven't checked my watch yet. I'd just be curious to hear your thoughts on the pros and cons of the quantified self.

B (37:33)

Yes, for me, I look at it in terms of patterns rather than static moments in time. I always look for the context, and then I'm looking for patterns within that context, and then that gives an indication of overall trends. And so for me, I've actually found that sleep, it can be an incredible diagnostic indicator, just as heart rate variable can be, just as resting heart rate can be. And we have to frame it within the systems of our lives and the context of the seasons. Like, I live here in Alaska. We have a lot of daylight right now. It's like 21, 22 hours of daylight. My body doesn't need as much sleep. It doesn't want as much sleep. The quality is still incredible. But the six hours of sleep is horrifying for the biometric devices, given that they take the numbers outside of a context. I also notice that there are times when my relationships are great and my work is fulfilling, and I'm finding that I don't need as much sleep. And my body wants to get out of bed in the morning and wants to go and do things, and the nourishment that I'm getting throughout the day, it more than outweighs the sleep that I'm not getting. And yet I also know that if that continues for an unsustainable period of time, and that is very much dependent on each person, my body will start to show the signs that it needs more sleep. And yet I find that a nap during the day, especially during the summers when I'm getting not as much sleep, that can be really helpful. And so this is where it's very much tailored to the individual.

A (39:26)

Duly noted. We've done a lot of good work here, I think, on the definitional and theoretical contextual tip. Let's move into practical steps for people who want to reset their nervous system. I believe you call these tools for everyday resilience. You and the producer for this episode, Marissa Schneiderman, produced a list for me. So I'M going to work down this list. First on this list is, I believe you call it how to not ever need to ask for help ever. Let your struggles be known in real time. In other words, you never have to ask for help if you're constantly in conversation with people around you about how you're doing. Instead of the perfunctory, hey, how are you? You're actually giving answers and seeking answers to that question.

B (40:11)

That is correct. I mean, I spent probably the first 35 years of my life trying to find the magic hack of how to not ever ask anyone for help ever. And how to never ever need help ever. And how to never ever need another human ever. And life took me on a series of merry adventures. And the conclusion that I came to is this is how I don't ever need to ask for help ever, is that my life is seen and known and who I am is seen and heard and known in real time. It's terrible and it's wonderful and it's terrible.

A (40:48)

What's the terrible part?

B (40:51)

Well, for some of us, including myself, it was my life's mission to not need anyone ever. Because people were terrible to me. Yeah. And I was trying to find the magic mantra, the fabulous guru, the meditation technique, the series of yoga poses that would help me to be independent, self reliant as a self contained unit. And I know that we have listeners in this space who may perhaps have also been on a similar journey themselves.

A (41:30)

Yeah. Some of the things you're saying echo things that I've heard my wife talk about. I once heard her say of her own inner dialogue, who am I to have needs?

B (41:41)

Yeah. Yeah. And within the context of someone's life, not having needs may have actually been how we survived. Yeah. And so when something arises as a result of a survival imperative, it can feel dangerous to try on little baby steps towards the idea of the possibility of letting someone in or letting oneself be seen or heard or known.

A (42:14)

How does this go for you? On a daily basis I'm imagining just it's basic interpersonal hygiene of you have good relationships in your life and you're talking to people about how you're doing and how they're doing. Am I close?

B (42:28)

Yes. Yes. And it took 10 years of addiction recovery and trauma recovery and communication skills and boundaries and nonviolent communication and the work of putting in the reps to pick up the phone and talk to people, of going to 12 step meetings, of being not scared of the sound of my own voice, of being not scared of my needs. Because for many of us. As soon as we have a need, we go into fight or flight about it. It's like, I have a need. No, I don't. I have a need. No, I don't. So there's the denial, and then I have a need. Well, get out of my way while I take care of my need. You're in my way. It can be very real.

A (43:11)

We are in a loneliness epidemic. A lot of people listening might be thinking, yeah, well, I don't know people who I can really talk to. What do you say to those folks?

B (43:23)

Start with wherever you're at. So for some of us, we start talking to our pets or our plants or chatgpt or other forms of AI. We start to connect to groups, add into the community, but through texting. Yeah, I think that's part of the rise in social media that then contributes to the loneliness epidemic. But at the start, it feels like it's an antidote to it because I can connect to people out there and to then start to find your people, whether it's going to poetry readings or sitting around a space at a bookstore where everyone's together but quiet, or going to an art group where everyone's together and having conversation but not about themselves, where you're just training your nervous system to be around other people and to then move the needle from there in ways that feel accessible and available and appropriate for you so that eventually we begin to start talking to people. You know, it's that piece about how being seen and being heard and being known is a function of groups. It's a function of communities. And when your very first experience of group or community, which is family of origin, has been suboptimal, then we go through the world feeling bereft. And then we live in a society that says, find your one special individual other who will be your absolute everything. And then that becomes a house of cards. Because your partner cannot be your mentor and your spiritual guide and your soul twin and the parent that you wish you had have had back then, as well as the person who puts boundaries for you. It's a house of cards. And so to be seen and to be heard and to be known is a function of groups and it's a function of communities. And so the encouragement and the invitation is to find your people.

A (45:30)

Yeah, I'll speak up for the people who don't like poetry or making art too much, but you mentioned CrossFit before. I'm a big fan of group exercise. I also am a fan of volunteering. It doesn't have to Be anything too heavy. It can be animal shelter or something like that. It's a great way to find your people and your cats and dogs.

B (45:52)

Yes, yes. It could also be a meditation group or a yoga group or the people in the Dan Harris community. When you find your people, life gets easier. And there are all manner of ways to be with people. And it might not be the depth of the intimacy that you're longing for or perhaps scared of. And yet we begin. Yeah. Dog walking groups.

A (46:21)

Yep. Or even taking a risk and chatting with somebody at the dog park or in an elevator. I mean, there's just. There are lots of research around micro interactions. How we deal with people we have quick interactions with throughout the day, the barista, the colleague. I'll drop a link in the show notes to an interview we did with Barbara Fredrickson about that. But just to keep things moving, another of your ideas is something you could do first thing in the morning, right, when you wake up. Can you describe that?

B (46:51)

Yes. So for many of us, we're like pieces of toast in a toaster. Like, as soon as we get up, it's like pop, Right. The piece of toast just pops up and I'm out of bed and I'm going. And the invitation is to notice that and to lie back down and to then feel the support of the bed beneath your body and trust that you're supported. And then allow your eyes to orient to the space. So let your eyes move around, connect to the far distance, connect to your peripheral vision. Allow your breath to fill yourself all the way from your toes to your fingertips. Come back again to that felt sense of feeling supported by the ground beneath your body, the bed beneath your body. And then see if you can hold on to that felt sense of expansion and support as you then come up to seated and then pause there. Connect once again to the horizon, Connect once again to the peripheral vision. Connect once again to the feeling of feeling supported. And then stay connected to that as you then start to move into your day.

A (48:15)

Physiologically, how and why does all of that work?

B (48:19)

It works because what happens as we start to mobilize and move throughout our day? We're in the front part of our body. We're in the go mode. Yeah, I'm in the front side of my body. And when we start to move towards a peritrauma response, when the stress starts to get a little bit too high, then we lose the peripheral vision and we become shortsighted and we are totally and entirely in the front body. And so this anchor or this Tether into the backside of the body, into the peripheral vision and towards the horizon can then become a somatic imprint or a body memory that we can go back to. Because as that slider switch moves into sympathetic, that's that mobilization. That's when things start to focus in. Yeah. So that we can get things done. And yet it can become too narrowly focused in and we become shortsighted, and so we lose that capacity.

A (49:18)

Okay, so this is the best explanation I've heard for this, because I've heard many, many, many meditation teachers talk about, you know, as you're sitting or lying down in the practice to feel supported by the earth. And I've always written it off as is my want as just the kind of bullshit that meditation teachers say. But what you're saying here lands for me that we are constantly in go mode. The front side of our body and not feeling supported, actually feeling like we're toppling forward. And one way to counteract that is right when you wake up, presumably you're lying down, as when you wake up to lie there for a minute. To feel supported.

B (49:58)

Yes.

A (49:59)

By the earth and to take that felt sense with you throughout the day.

B (50:06)

Similarly, if you have micro moments of a meditation practice throughout the day, one of the Chen dynasty meditation teachers would say, soften your eyes and bring your awareness to the area behind the back of your eyes and bring your awareness to the area behind the back of your head. And that would be the cue at the start of every single sit. And notice how the body then starts to come down, move away from the front body, and starts to connect to a central axis. And then the area around the eyes soften, and then there's a connection to the peripheral vision as well as to the horizon in the distance. And that then gives us more expansive capacity to be here. And it takes us out of this doing, doing, doing mode and into being mode. It's actually impossible to be in doing mode when we have access to peripheral vision and to the horizon, and bringing your awareness to the area behind the back of the eyes and bringing your awareness to the area behind the back of the head. It's a doorway. It's an access way into being mode versus doing mode.

A (51:34)

Coming up, Linda talks about even more ways, very practical ways, to regulate your nervous system and boost your resiliency. Depending on where you live. The cooler temperatures are rolling in. And if it's not happening right now, it's going to happen soon. It always does. And quints is where I'm turning for fall staples that actually last from cashmere to denim to boots, the quality holds up and the price still blows me away. Quint has the kind of fall staples you will wear non stop. Like super soft 100% Mongolian cashmere sweaters starting at just 60 bucks. I've got like four of those. Gonna bring those out of the back of the closet to start wearing again. None that fall is here. Their denim is durable and fits right and their real leather jackets bring that clean classic edge without the elevated price tag. What makes Quint different? They partner directly with ethical factories and skip the middlemen so you get the top tier fabrics and craftsmanship at half the price of similar brands. I was at a party last night. I was wearing my Quint's pants which fit really well. They look good, not too tight, just the kind of thing a man of my age craves. I've got many many Quints go to's. Aside from the aforementioned cashmere sweaters, I also wear Quint's sweatpants on the regular often while I'm doing interviews for this podcast. Keep it classic and cool this fall with long lasting staples from Quince Go to quince.comhappier for free shipping on your order and 365 days returns. That's Q U I N C E dot com free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.comhappier I am recording this from a house at the beach where I'm with lots of friends staying in a big house together and I love doing this. When I'm on a family vacation and I want to spend some really intimate time with with my family and our family friends. There's nothing like an Airbnb. You put a lot of love into your home. I assume for many of us when we travel our place is just empty. So while you're away it may make sense to host it on Airbnb. And that's a way to make some extra cash so you can kind of offset some of the costs for going on vacation. Your home might be worth more than you think. Find out how much@airbnb.com host let me stay with Looking to the Horizon for a second. My understanding is this is something you would recommend that we do in any moment of activation or stress throughout the day, not just when you wake up. Can you say a little bit more about that?

B (54:30)

Sure. We have the ancient architecture of humans on the savannah and so we are used to looking at the horizon all day long and in that way we notice if a threat or a danger comes. And when we're looking at something in front of us. It's something that we're engaging in for now, and yet we're always looking up, scanning the horizon. We live in a world that has narrowed our focus right in to the point that we lose focus. We need to stop and smell the roses because we become so focused in that we lose focus of the bigger picture. And so throughout the day, when you notice yourself, that you started to get into tunnel vision, you've clenched your jaw, that there's constriction or tightness in the area at the back of the neck, in the shoulder area, orienting to the horizon will help to release that tension that's there in your body. And then as you orient to the horizon, you might actually notice your head gently turning from side to side. And as you do that, the phrenic nerve, which goes through your cervical vertebrae 3, 4, and 5, starts to move five times more slowly.

A (55:49)

Dan she's commenting on the fact that I'm trying what she's recommending that I'm doing in my typical squirrel on Adderall mode too quickly.

B (55:59)

And as you do that nice and slowly, notice how a breath naturally emerges. So the phrenic nerve, which goes through cervical vertebrae 3, 4, and 5, directly connects to the diaphragm and innervates or moves the diaphragm. So when we're in a peritrauma response, the diaphragm starts to constrict because it's actually a coarse stabilizer muscle that mobilizes us towards being able to stand our ground, towards being able to get things done. And so this moving the head from side to side will cause the diaphragm to move. And then a breath naturally emerges. If you are still small and quiet, that's a survival response in nature. And yet that's also what happens when we start to get really focused in on something like, as if it's life or death. And so this orienting to the big picture through the horizon, turning the head from side to side, it brings us into the best parts of ourselves. We have more capacity for creativity, for connection, for curiosity.

A (57:08)

I had Ezra Klein on the show recently, the writer for the New York Times, the opinion writer and host of the Ezra Klein podcast. He said something that he wasn't sure is correct, and he stated that to his credit. And so actually, you may be the person to see if it's correct. He said that he had heard or he thought he had heard somebody say that. If you're looking at your phone too much as a way to gather information, you are in this tunnel vision mode, which can make the integration of the information much harder because your, your nervous system is activated. Whereas if you actually, like, read things on paper, like a newspaper or a book, or you print things out and you sit at a table and read it, and occasionally, quite naturally, when you're in that mode, you'll look up and look around, then it's a much more effective way to learn. Is he right about that?

B (58:00)

Yes, because we don't learn just through our eyes. We learn through our bodies. We learn through the sensorial connections between the top half of the body and the bottom half of the body and the left side of the body and the right side of the and the full visual field that then ignites the top and the bottom of the brain and the left and the right side of the brain and the front and the back of the brain. And then this is how we encode things deeper into our memory systems. And yet we live in a dopamine driven society with a dopamine driven education system run by algorithms that are on a race for our brainstem.

A (58:41)

The way you put it. Yeah, I agree with you, but it does feel either parasitic or like a prey animal hunting us all the time. I do want to go back. Staying on the practical tip here. You talked before about how when we're activating the phrenic nerve or whatever, but when we look side to side, slower than I normally do, that it can provoke a deep breath. And that just gets me wondering, what about starting with deep breathing as a way to reset the nervous system? Is there something to say on that score?

B (59:13)

That can also be helpful. However, that can also be a way of overriding the nervous system. So it's a both. And yeah, it can be a way to reset. And for some of us, we don't have access to deep breath. And so for some of us, when we try on the big deep breath, our diaphragms are so tight and constricted that the big deep breathing can actually cause for us to experience even more anxiety. And so I Love, for example, Dr. Andrew Wheel's four, seven, eight breathing. It's incredible.

A (59:44)

What is that? And how do we do it?

B (59:46)

Oh, thank you. Thank you for this clarity. So it's four, seven, eight breathing. It's breathe in for a count of four, hold the breath for a count of seven, and exhale at the mouth slowly for a count of eight and do it four times. When I worked in addiction recovery, we actually did it six times because that's what people said they needed in Order to feel the reset effects of that particular breathing technique. I used it for a long time, I taught it for a long time in early addiction recovery. Incredible benefits. And yet for some of the folks in the room, the breath holding part of it would cause their nervous system to increase in terms of the felt sense of anxiety and distress. And so I find the looking to the horizon as something that is more accessible to more nervous system types.

A (60:45)

Well, how does somebody know whether they're a good candidate for deep breathing or bad candidate?

B (60:51)

Try it on. Yeah, there's research and then there's me. Search. Yeah. Learning from your own experience. It's very, very useful.

A (61:00)

Yes, absolutely. Absolutely 100%. Another. Another entry on your list is something you call completing the stress response cycle. You suggest that we do this multiple times a day. What does that mean, completing the stress response cycle?

B (61:16)

3 minutes of high intensity exercise that uses the entirety of the body, particularly the deep core muscles, as well as the arms and the legs that will metabolize stress hormones, and it also completes the stress response cycle. So say, for example, I have a big keynote speech and I need to mobilize. And in service of mobilization, my brain pumps my body full of adrenaline and then my body is like, okay, let's go run the run. Like, let's run, let's fight, let's nail this. However, I need to stand my ground and deliver something that's on point. And so then there's a loop. There's a loop that isn't being completed. What I do backstage is I will actually do push ups and jumping jacks and burpees so that my body gets to complete some of that stress response. And then I get up on stage and I do my keynote. For others of us, we're experiencing stress throughout the day, and we need a third space where we can complete the stress response. Or we can do it in the office before we leave the office so that we metabolize all of those stress hormones and then we can go home and be with our family, our friends, go and engage with people with more expansiveness. That's available in our nervous systems and in our bodies and in our relational systems. As a trauma therapist, I do this with my clients the last three minutes of our session time. Like, let's just move the body together. Let's get the body systems back online and let's complete that stress response cycle.

A (63:00)

So if I wanted to try this for myself, set a timer for three minutes and do some push ups or burpees. Burpees are hard. I like them but they're hard. You're not overly prescriptive about what it is we do, but jumping jacks, burpees, squat jumps, whatever it is that's using the full body, getting it going. Three minutes. Bob's your uncle.

B (63:21)

Yes. Yes. Shovel snow, dig a hole, push a wheelbarrow. I have sandbags in my office. We do, like, you know, sandbags exercises. Pushing, pulling, lifting, carrying.

A (63:36)

You know, I go to the gym every day and I'm still an asshole sometimes. Yeah, there's no panacea here. These are just. You're just reducing the likelihood that you're going to be mean to yourself or others.

B (63:48)

Yes. So think of asshole as not binary. Think of it as the sliding. The dimmer switch. Right. And I know the people in your life don't want to hear it, that you're less of an asshole today than usual because you went to the gym, but it does keep that part of ourselves in check.

A (64:10)

Another technique you recommend for everyday resilience or for working with your nervous system. I'm not quite sure what you mean by this, but you say squeeze inwards and press outwards against imaginary walls. Can you talk about that, please?

B (64:28)

For sure. So some of us, we become still small, quiet, and then we become immobilized. Yeah. And so to actually squeeze all the way in, let yourself be really small, let yourself creak in the backside of the neck, and then push outwards against imaginary walls that are pushing in against you, that's making sounds, perhaps not. And then releasing, and you start laughing. Right. So now your social engagement system is an indicator of eventual Vegas is back online. And you can do that. Squeeze in and push against an imaginary ceiling that's pushing down against you. And then you can squeeze up and in and push against an imaginary wall that's coming to you from the front.

A (65:13)

If people were watching this on YouTube, they got it. But if they're listening on Spotify or wherever they get their podcast, they might not have fully understood that. But essentially what Linda did was in terms of squeezing inward. She basically just squeezed all of her energy and, like, made herself as small as possible, squinched her face. You're basically squeezing inwards, pulling your diaphragm in your neck down toward your shoulders. And then you let go of that and push out against imaginary walls at your side in front of you from above. And you can growl if you want or not, depending on where your slider switch is on. Your dimmer switches on embarrassability or. I know that's not a word. This does What?

B (65:58)

For us, this also completes the stress response cycle in a way, because we're actually letting ourselves get into the very small with a lot of pent up energy while really small. Yeah. And then we are pushing, pushing, pushing outwards or pushing upwards or pushing forward, forwards with all of our strength and our might and reconnecting to how strong we are. And that then completes the freeze response that says, be still, be small, be quiet with all that pent up energy. And we're actually then taking up space. So that's also another way of completing the stress response because we're completing the defensive response, completing the protective response of establishing our peripersonal space. And the growl for some of us can also be the re establishing of our space. And it can also be the completion of a protective or defensive response. The primal of the fight that is not acceptable for us to do to our bosses. It's not acceptable, Right. To bite someone's head off. However, that primal urge can actually be there inside of ourselves and to allow ourselves to complete that or finish that. Another way of doing that, which I do sometimes because I have a very strong fight part, is I have a mouth guard and I will pop that mouth guard in and I will grind my teeth and do the flaring of the nostrils and the primal response so that my body can actually feel that my body got to complete something rather than me needing to continue to override and override and override that response. Eventually it comes out right towards the gas station attendant or a snarky response towards someone, or it eventually comes out. And so we can find ways to complete the stress response in ways that can be very effective for each of us.

A (68:07)

What about shouting into a pillow?

B (68:09)

Yes, that can also be really helpful. Yeah. Truly.

A (68:15)

Yeah, I believe you.

B (68:16)

Yeah. And this is the me search. Right. Like to actually get curious about the thing that is helpful for you. I had a partner once, we would growl at each other because we would fight over stupid stuff like you didn't do the dishes and you didn't take the trash out. And you know, it was just a bioaccumulation of each of our stresses from throughout the day. And then we would start to attack each other. And it was actually never about the housework. Right. And so eventually we just stood there and we would make growling sounds and hulk body shapes and you know, like, eventually we'd start laughing, but it was just a way of moving that energy through so that we could actually really get the. Yeah, it wasn't about the chores.

A (69:00)

The final entry on your List of practical ways to regulate the nervous system, boost your resiliency. The final entry is remember to remember. What do you mean by that?

B (69:11)

Remember to remember that this isn't life or death. Even though it feels like life or death. Remember to remember. I'll pause there because for some of us, once we actually get hijacked by the stress response response system, it may actually feel like it's life or death. And remember to remember that. Yeah. And then remember your resources. Remember that you are tethered into something larger, which can be a more expansive conceptualization and felt experience of what it means to be human. This connection to nature, this connection to the horizon, this connection to ancestors, connection to professional ancestors, activist ancestors, lineage of teachers, teachers of their teachers, that you're tethered into something so much larger and more expansive. Remember to remember your resources, the people that you can ask for help, the places where you can go and find the answers that you're seeking. And I noticed that as I'm saying this, your body starts to sway from side to side. Right. This is your body's innate wisdom, Dan. Because when the vestibular system is online, the limbic brain, the fight, flight, freeze, vehemently emotional part of the brain is offline. Yes. So as I'm actually talking to you about remembering to remember all of these things, that your body starts to do something that is a reconnection to a deeper wisdom.

A (70:52)

I buy that. I think that our culture has, in a macro and micro sense, like just a culture wide separation anxiety. We just feel alone, whether we're technically lonely or not, because the way we live is counter evolutionary. And so anytime we could be reminded of our essential embeddedness. Yeah, you sway a little bit.

B (71:20)

Yeah. And the body feels good when it sways. Right. We have been stripped of so much culturally dance movement, the practices of Tai Chi, of gardening, of walking, of forest bathing, of orienting to the bigger world around us through song, through ritual, through community. And yet all of these are protective factors against aloneness. And sociologists have actually studied what comes first, aloneness or depression. Do you get depressed and then you start to isolate and become more alone? Or does the aloneness come first and then we get depressed as a result of how alone we are? And sociologists have actually discovered that it's actually the aloneness that's the precursor to depression. For me, that really indicates the ways in which the systems in which we live give rise to the distress that we experience that then gets labeled as anxiety, depression, existential malaise, adjustment disorder. And they really are Terms that describe the lack of community that has become systemic and structural. And if we can pause to remember. To remember, then we can pause to reconnect to our capacities and abilities to do something about that.

A (73:06)

Linda, you've done a great job here. I'm going to ask you the two questions I ask traditionally and habitually at the end of the show. The first is, is there anything you were hoping to get to that we didn't get to?

B (73:20)

The one message I'd like to. To come across is that your nervous system is actually responding in an appropriate way to the environment. For the majority of the time, there's nothing wrong with you that you're feeling stress or distress. There's nothing wrong with you if you're feeling overwhelmed or manic or frantic. It's that pause to take into account the reality of the systems within which we live to actually knowing that this is an appropriate response. And then if we name the context of your life, then it can actually make even more sense that your body is responding in a way that may not make sense to other people. However makes sense given what you have survived or lived through.

A (74:06)

Right.

B (74:07)

I think we tend to pathologize stress.

A (74:09)

As if it's somehow our fault.

B (74:11)

Yeah. And it's not. It's not.

A (74:13)

It's not our fault. But it is our responsibility in some ways and there are things we can do to manage it. And you've given us a number of them.

B (74:21)

Absolutely.

A (74:21)

Final question for you is if people want to learn more about you or from you, where can they go? What kind of resources have you put out that we should know about?

B (74:29)

If you head over to linda-tai.com l I n d A-T-H-A-I.com you'll see my upcoming events. You'll see the courses that I have available for people to learn more about the nervous system and the intersection of one's childhood and how that then shapes our nervous system in such a way that make sense for us given the context of our lives, but may perhaps get in the way of our ability to be optimal in terms of the relationships in our own lives.

A (75:00)

Great pleasure to meet you. Thank you for doing this. Really appreciate it.

B (75:04)

Thank you, Dan. And thank you for continuing to reign me back in towards the very nuts and bolts practical of things. I appreciate you very much.

A (75:12)

You may have felt reined in, but it didn't feel like work on my side. I've had guests who required a lot more care and feeding than you, so. So don't worry about it.

B (75:20)

Yeah. No, you're an absolute pleasure. Please keep doing the work that you're doing out there in the world. Please know that you make a difference and that who you are is more than enough. You don't have to do it all. There are others who are also out there making a difference to the world in our own ways.

A (75:37)

Thank you Linda. Thanks again to Linda Tide. We've got a guide to guided meditation that will help you reset your nervous system that is customized for this episode and it comes from the great meditation teacher Vinnie Ferraro, who's our Teacher of the month over@danharris.com if you sign up at danharris.com you can get access to all of our custom guided meditations that come with our Monday Wednesday episodes. You also get access to weekly live meditation and Q and A sessions. The next one is tomorrow, Tuesday, September 9th at 4 Eastern. Henceforth, we're going to be doing these on Tuesdays at 4 Eastern. So the next one is Tuesday, September 9th at 4 Eastern. That's with Vinnie Solo. I'll do solo the next week. Also, don't forget about the upcoming IRL events. I'm doing one at the New York Insight meditation center on September 21st and the other at Omega Institute the weekend of October 24th. Links are in the show notes. Finally, thank you so much to everybody who works so hard on the show. Our producers are Tara Anderson, Caroline Keenan and Eleanor Vasily. Our recording and engineering is handled by the great folks over at Pod People. Lauren Smith is our Managing producer, Marissa Schneiderman is our senior producer, DJ Cashmir is our Executive producer and Nick Thorburn of the band Islands wrote our theme.

B (77:02)

Foreign.

A (77:07)

This episode is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Fiscally responsible financial geniuses, Monetary magicians. These are things people say about drivers who switch their car insurance to Progressive and save hundreds. Visit progressive.com to see if you could save Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates. Potential savings will vary. Not available in all states or situations.