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10% Happier with Dan Harris
Stoic Practices for Getting Rid of Mental Junk, Your Morning Routine, and Talking to the Dead | Ryan Holiday
01:07:52
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- [00:00]
Jeff Warren
Foreign.
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Dan Harris
This is the 10% happier podcast. I'm Dan Harris. Hello, my fellow suffering beings. How we doing today? Today we're talking to a guy who has quickly become one of my favorite return guests, Ryan Holiday, the stoic philosopher.
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Jeff Warren
And uber prolific author on all things stoicism.
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Dan Harris
Today we're talking about how to be wise or how to cultivate wisdom. As you'll hear me joke to Ryan.
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Jeff Warren
Wisdom is kind of a funny term.
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Dan Harris
Because it's hard to define and often either ungraspable or totally confusing. But actually, as Ryan talks about in his new book, which is called Wisdom Takes Work, there are tons of things you can do that will improve your life, out of which wisdom may well emerge. So in this conversation, we talk about.
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Jeff Warren
How to talk to the dead.
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Dan Harris
He'll explain what that means, the value of asking questions, including impertinent questions.
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Jeff Warren
How to create a second brain.
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Dan Harris
How to find a teacher for yourself. How to manage your ego and navigate your blind spots. How to get rid of mental junk. How to cool off your brain. How not to be a know it all. How to achieve focus through having a.
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Jeff Warren
Morning routine, or any kind of routine.
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Dan Harris
Depending on what time of day works for you. How to seek out criticism, how to embrace complexity, how to learn how to die, and much more. A little bit more on Ryan before.
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Jeff Warren
We dive in here, Ryan Holiday has written many, many, many bestselling books, including.
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Dan Harris
The Daily Stoic, the Obstacle Is the Way, Ego is the Enemy, and Stillness Is the Key. He's got a popular podcast called the Daily Stoic, and again, he's got a new book called Wisdom Takes Work.
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Ryan Holiday
Real quick.
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Dan Harris
Before we dive in here, don't forget to check out my new app. It's called 10% with Dan Harris. And you can sign up@danharris.com, the most egotistical web address in the world. There's a free 14 day trial if you want to check out the app before you buy it. Let me just tell you though, we've got an amazing and growing library of guided meditations from amazing teachers, including people like Joseph Goldstein. We also do weekly live video meditation and Q and A sessions so you can get your questions answered.
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Jeff Warren
And.
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Dan Harris
And we've set it up so that you can connect with your fellow meditators and create relationships so you don't feel so alone in this weird thing called meditation. We'll get started with Ryan Holiday right after this. When you're in that level up mindset for your business, it's wild how much the basic stuff matters, like how you talk to customers and keep your team on the same page. A cleaner, more modern setup can make everything feel smoother, which is why today's episode is sponsored by quo. That's quo, the modern alternative to run your business. Communications Kuo is the number one rated business phone system on G2 with over 3,000 reviews built for how modern teams work. That's why more than 90,000 businesses, from solo entrepreneurs to growing teams, rely on Quo to stay connected, professional and consistently reachable. Quo works wherever you are, right from an app on your phone or computer and lets you keep your existing number. You can add new numbers or teammates in minutes, sync your CRM, and rely on seamless routing and call flows as your business scales, your entire team can handle calls and texts from one shared number. No more missed messages or disconnected conversations. Everybody sees the same full thread, making replies faster and customers feel genuinely cared for. That last bit about making customers feel genuinely cared for, that is a huge priority for me and my team on our business. And any tool that helps you get better at that, in my view, will accelerate your business meaningfully. Make this the year where no opportunity and no customer slips away. Try quo for free plus 20% off your first six months when you go to quo.com happier than that's quo.com happierquo no missed calls, no missed customers.
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Jeff Warren
The.
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Dan Harris
Best B2B marketing often gets wasted on the wrong people. I can't tell you how often I'm scrolling and I get served ads for stuff I have no interest in. So when you want to reach the right professionals, use LinkedIn ads. LinkedIn has grown to a network of over a billion professionals and including 130 million decision makers. And that's where it stands apart from other ad buys. You can target your buyers by job title industry, company role, seniority skills, company revenue. So you can stop wasting budget on the wrong audience. It's why LinkedIn Ads generates the highest B2B return on ad spend of all major ad networks. Seriously, all of them. Spend $250 on your first campaign on LinkedIn ads and get a $250 credit for the next one. Just go to LinkedIn.com happier. That's LinkedIn.com happier. Terms and conditions apply. Ryan Holiday, welcome back to the show.
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Ryan Holiday
Yeah, thanks for having me.
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Jeff Warren
It's a pleasure to have you back. All right, well, let me start with some basic questions.
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Ryan Holiday
Deal.
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Jeff Warren
The book is called Wisdom takes Work. What do you mean by wisdom? It's one of those words that, like, you say it and you picture like dumbledore what do you mean specifically by wisdom?
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Ryan Holiday
Yeah, it's a tricky one. Right. What is the definition of wisdom? I've come to understand that it is many things. Right. So obviously it's experiences, it is reading. I guess what I figured out doing this book. So I've been doing this series on the cardinal virtues. The four virtues, for people who don't know of Stoicism, are courage, temperance, or self discipline, justice and wisdom. So they're all kind of basic words that are pretty obvious. And then as soon as you start to drill down on them, you realize, oh, there are many things and there are sort of sub virtues underneath each one. And so my definition of wisdom is that there is no definition. And to think that there is a clean one sentence definition is probably something, some sign that whatever wisdom is, you don't have it. It's a complicated thing comprising intelligence and creativity and experience and age. It's wit, it's all of these things and more. And yet at some level, it is incredibly elusive and it's hard to point to any one person that has it. Which ultimately comes to the title of the book, which you mentioned. So Seneca is saying, the one thing that we can all agree on as far as wisdom is that nobody gets it by chance. It's not something you're born with. It's not something anyone can give you. It only comes, the Stoics say, as a result of a lot of work. And so that's basically the premise of the book, that it's sort of this byproduct of this kind of timeless methodology or process, these sort of basic practices. And it's probably better to focus more on doing those things than trying to ascertain whether you have it or don't. If that makes sense.
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Jeff Warren
Yeah, it's like you do the work. Wisdom is the emergent property. And it's somewhat ineffable. Indescribable.
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Ryan Holiday
Yes.
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Jeff Warren
But you kind of know it when you see it or experience it.
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Ryan Holiday
It eludes your grasp. Right. Even if you like. The paradoxical nature of it is that if you or I were to agree on someone that we both think is wise, and then we asked them, not just are you wise, but how did you get wise? They would almost certainly not describe themselves in that way. And there would be, as you said, a certain ineffability to how they got to wherever they got, because it's such a long and crazy gradual process.
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Jeff Warren
You mentioned Seneca. For people who don't know who that is. Can you just fill us in?
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Ryan Holiday
Yeah. Seneca is One of the wisest philosophers of the ancient world. He lives in the time of Nero. He's a Roman senator who becomes a Stoic philosopher. A complicated, fascinating guy who writes quite eloquently and persuasively about all these Stoic ideals and the pursuit of wisdom. And then I think, to go to our point that even the wisest people have huge blind spots and make all sorts of mistakes, he is Nero's teacher, one of the worst emperors that ever lived, and he's sort of caught up in this political mess. One of the things I end up talking about in the book, actually is this idea of, like, why so often very smart people, academics or philosophers or gurus or whatever, find themselves drawn into the service or the orbit of profoundly bad people and seem to be genuinely bad at reading those people. Plato does the same thing. I'm fascinated with that as well.
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Jeff Warren
Yeah, I mean, you see, it was Jeffrey Epstein. I mean, he had all these smart people in his orbit. I mean, maybe it speaks to the difference between intelligence or being smart and wisdom.
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Ryan Holiday
Yes. Also though, like, when we're talking about intelligence, social intelligence is such a underrated form of it. Like one of my favorite stories in the book, and not everyone agrees with me on it, but I think it's fascinating. So Socrates, we hold up as this great wise philosopher, this brave man who is brought up on these trumped up charges and goes bravely to his death. But to me, the illustrative thing about Socrates is, okay, so Socrates is brought up on trial for impiety and corrupting the youth. And he's only narrowly convicted by the jury, right? The juries in ancient Athens were hundreds of people, but he's like narrowly convicted of the crime. But then he's given the opportunity to suggest his own punishment, right? He's allowed to address the court. And after Socrates addresses the court, he gives such a bad speech. Like, he reads the room so poorly and he's so obnoxious. He says, actually, not only should I not have been convicted, you should give me a pension. Like my punishment should be a reward. And he's so annoying that a larger percentage of the jury votes to convict him to death, to sentence him to death, then voted for his guilt in the first place.
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Jeff Warren
Oh, wow.
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Ryan Holiday
So what this means is that some people who thought he was innocent still wanted him sentenced to death. My point is that Socrates is one of the wisest people who ever lived and, and yet he's obnoxious. He's not just obnoxious, but he seems to poorly perceive how he comes off to people. Like he would describe himself as the gadfly of Athens. But people hate flies, right? Like that's a bad thing to be. So I think there is a tendency, and I think we see this in these extreme examples, and then we want to wonder where we're doing it. My point is just if you're smart, but your intelligence leads you to get sentenced to death, avoidably. So maybe you're not so smart, right. Maybe you're lacking some element of wisdom.
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Jeff Warren
So you said earlier that wisdom is one of the four cardinal virtues.
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Ryan Holiday
Yeah.
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Jeff Warren
And then you walked us through what they were and I can't remember the justice, temperance, courage, maybe.
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Ryan Holiday
Yes.
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Jeff Warren
And you got him. Thank you. You didn't say this, but you say it in the book, that wisdom is the mother of all of these virtues. So why is that?
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Ryan Holiday
What's the most important of the virtues? Obviously, at some level, they're inseparable and all interdependent on each other. A great example of this would be courage and justice. Courage in pursuit of a profoundly evil or selfish aim, like an unjust or an injust aim, is obviously not an admirable or a virtuous form of courage. So I think we can say that all the other virtues descend from wisdom because wisdom informs or instructs us on what they are. So the cause that you pick is not just informed by wisdom, but then your understanding of how to bring that justice into the world has to be shaped by wisdom. Like the example that I give in this. Actually two fascinating examples. Thomas Clarkson and Abraham Lincoln, the two individuals most responsible for the eradication of slavery in the Western world. At some kind of moral, personal level, they just instinctively believe that slavery is wrong. But what's fascinating about both of them, if you study their journey from just two individuals who disliked slavery to two crusading activists who bring about its demise. Thomas Clarkson, for people who don't know, is in England. He starts the abolitionist movement and leads to the the invention of most modern political activism, nonviolent activism. What both he and Lincoln do is they say, okay, I have this sense that this thing is wrong. But they do these multi year deep dives into the history of the institution, both its legality, its philosophical roots, its economic underpinnings. Like Lincoln goes to the Library of Congress and reads as much original documentation. Debates amongst the founders, letters, bullet points from senatorial and congressional debates. Clarkson does the same thing. He goes and actually visits a slave ship. Like that famous drawing of what the inside of a slave ship looks like. That comes from Clarkson. So my point is that both the interest, like the curiosity, and then the technical competence to go wrap your arms around a subject or a topic is a part of wisdom. It's not, oh, I think this thing is wrong, and therefore everyone should agree with me. What both of them do in their crusade is they go and understand the thing and figure out how to communicate it, and then also figure out its center of gravity, that they're then able to attack courageously, with discipline, to make a more just world.
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Jeff Warren
As we've been saying, the book is called Wisdom Takes Work. So let's talk about how to do this work. You divide it into three areas. Part one is called the training ground, or the agoge. Is that the technical term?
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Ryan Holiday
The agoge?
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Jeff Warren
It's agoge.
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Ryan Holiday
That's how I pronounce it. I don't know if I've ever heard anyone say it, so I'm just guessing, but, yes, that's like the training ground in classical Greece. That's where you went to train, both in military training and in your education.
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Jeff Warren
So there are a bunch of entries under training ground. I'm going to avoid pronouncing that word. And so I'm just going to pick a few and talk to you and get you to talk to them about it. One of them is talk to the dead. What does that mean?
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Ryan Holiday
The founder of Stoicism is this guy Zeno. He's a merchant in the Mediterranean, and he deals in this thing called Tyrian purple, which is this rare purple dye that would make cloaks and fabulous garments in the ancient world. So he's your ordinary merchant, but like most of the Greeks, he worships the gods. And so at some point, he stops to in Delphi and visits the temple of Apollo. So he makes his way up the sacred way. He washes his hands in the sacred spring lights, his incense. And then he asks the priestess at the temple of Apollo, what's the secret to the good life? And she tells him, in sort of typical cryptic terms, that you will achieve wisdom when you begin to have conversations with the dead. He has no idea what this means for many years until eventually he suffers this shipwreck. He washes up penniless in Athens. And there in the Agora, another term, which I'm a little bit more confident in my pronunciation there in the Agora, he stops by a bookseller who's, you know, a cart of scrolls and books, and the bookseller is reading aloud a passage from Xenophon. Actually, it's a. It's called the Choice of Hercules, which comes to us from Socrates, which I open all four books of the Virtue series with. He's reading this story about Hercules coming to a crossroads. It's a metaphor about choosing the easy way or the hard way in life. Anyways, it's here where he hears Socrates, long since dead, coming alive from a book reading. That Zeno realizes what the priestess was telling him all along. That books are a way to have conversations with the dead. That philosophy is a way to communicate with the wisest people who have ever lived, most of them who lived a very long time ago. I think this is why we tend to call the classics the great conversation, right? This sort of continual conversation with Aristotle and Plato and Zeno and Socrates and Cicero and all the Greeks and the Romans. So when we say talk to the dead, we're talking about reading. Obviously, there's this sort of dichotomy, which I think is a false dichotomy of do you learn from books or do you learn from the streets? Are you book smart or street smart? And the answer is you want to be both. And I think anything you can learn from books that you don't have to learn on the street is both an efficiency and a way to spare yourself some painful trial and error. So that's what it means to talk to the dead.
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Jeff Warren
And to your credit, you've built a really cool career around talking to the dead. But let me move on to some of the other suggestions in this part of the book, just to reset for the listener. We're talking about how to do the work of wisdom, the work that produces wisdom. We've just talked about talking to the dead. Another of your suggestions here is to ask impertinent questions.
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Ryan Holiday
Yeah, you know, you think about the question that Zeno goes and asks the priest, right? What's the secret to the good life? My own life, My introduction to Stoicism hinges on the fact that I was at a conference when I was 19 years old and I asked for a book recommendation. Our life can hinge on these questions that we ask or don't ask. And so I think so much of our journey to wisdom begins with whether we're gonna be curious or not, whether we're gonna ask or not. Sometimes you'll like the answer, sometimes you won't like the answer. But I think the act of questioning is just such an essential part of this journey. So what I was trying to just sort of lay out these kind of basic principles, and the story I tell is about this Nobel Prize winning physicist who every Day when he would come home from school, his mother wouldn't ask, how'd you do on the test? What are your grades? Did you stand at the head of your class? You know any of that? She would ask him every day, did you ask any good questions? And I just think that's such a wonderful habit to inculcate in a child. And it's something that I try to teach my own children. You just realize that so often what we are implicitly encouraging is not the questioning, it's the output of the question. It's things like grades, the superficial stuff, and not did you ask the good questions? And I think even we actively discourage this questioning often because those questions that our kids ask us make us uncomfortable or are challenging the hated question of why, why, why? You stamp that out of your child at your peril. I think as many of us had it stamped out of us.
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Jeff Warren
Okay, ticking down the list here, you've got a recommendation that you call focus, Focus, Focus. We all know focusing is important. I'm just curious. First of all, I want to hear why you're recommending it. But specifically, specifically I want to hear how does one focus in this era of mass distraction?
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Ryan Holiday
Well, the importance of it is easier to express than the magical solution to it. I think it's very hard to learn or understand anything, to get to any kind of wisdom or insight without long uninterrupted periods of concentration and focus. I don't know about you, but one of the things I think you find is that there's your first appreciation of something and then there's what you appreciate or understand about it after hours and hours and hours of study about it. And then there's what you understand and appreciate it after many years of focus on it. I've often thought that the sort of Zen Cohen's that we sometimes hold up, these kind of riddle questions that Eastern philosophers would contemplate, I'm not actually sure there is an answer to them. I think the whole point is that it's supposed to be perplexing and paradoxical and you're just supposed to spend a lot of time thinking about it. And it's weirdly this sort of byproduct of that thinking that produces the enlightenment, not some wonderful singular moment where you, you know what the sound of one hand clapping is?
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Jeff Warren
Yes. I mean, I'm not a Zen master, but my understanding of these Zen koans is that it's supposed to kind of ride the flawed horse of your thinking mind all the way to the transcendence of the Thinking mind by breaking the thinking mind.
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Ryan Holiday
I think that's exactly right. And so having things that you contemplate and consider on a regular basis is, to me, a big part of it is. My journaling practice is a big part of, like, I try to start my morning not getting sucked into the phone, not getting sucked into meetings. I try to leave that early period of the day when I am freshest, when it's quietest, when there are the fewest interruptions to sort of do that focus. And again, all of these things are interrelated. Like, focus is obviously a part and parcel of wisdom, and yet it requires an immense amount of discipline or self mastery, which would be the second virtue of stoicism. I tell this story in the discipline book. That's one of my favorites. I tell it to people all the time. Toni Morrison. People don't know. Before she was a novelist, she was an editor at Random House, as well as being a single mother. And so as she's working on her novels and then doing her two other day jobs, being a parent and editing other people's books, what she would have to do is she would have to get up every morning before dawn, and she wanted to be writing as the sun came up, which she would watch happen out of her window. But she said that she learned that it was important for her to get all or most of her writing done before she heard the word mom for the first time. Focus is this matter of willpower, to be sure. But it's also, I think, a matter of planning and structure. So whenever I write or whenever I try to work on some problem or solve something, at two in the afternoon, I'm reminded why I don't do it. Then most of the time, you know, I'm like, oh, this ship has sailed. Like, I have depleted whatever my focus capacity or reservoir is for the day. I could read a memo now or I could have a decently productive brainstorming session, but I'm not going to write anything that I'm proud of or have any creative breakthroughs that I'm proud of. Like, that part of the day is over now. That's when it works for me. Other people, you talk to them and they're like, no, no. I do my best work at 2 in the morning. And so you got to structure and build your life and day around that.
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Jeff Warren
I'm so with you on the morning thing. As a fellow writer, although I churn out one book in the time that you churn out six, I notice I've got this window of A couple of hours in the morning where all the good stuff is going to happen.
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Ryan Holiday
Yeah.
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Jeff Warren
And then later in the day, my brain's still online, but just not in as focused a way or as a clear or creative way. I think what you're saying here is your answer to my question. Yeah, we get it. Focus is important. How do we do it? Is know yourself, know what are the times when you can clear everything out, if that's possible, given your life circumstances, and, and make a hard run at the thing that matters most to you in the time that is most fruitful for you?
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Ryan Holiday
I think that's absolutely right. And I think what you just said there. Knowing yourself is obviously one of the most essential forms of wisdom, which, by the way, was inscribed in the rock over the temple of Apollo for a reason. You've got to know when you're at your best. You've got to know your limitations, you've got to know your weaknesses and your vulnerabilities. And what I have found too is it's not this singular thing. So today or now, I'm a person who has to get their best work done in the morning. Before I had kids when I was younger, that window you're talking about of like, when the best stuff was going to happen, that was a bigger, more flexible window. You know, I used to be able to think and work productively on airplanes, for example. And now, because I've got young kids, like, the second I'm on an airplane by myself, I immediately fall asleep, right. And I can't concentrate for anything there. And so just knowing both your evolution as a person, knowing your body, knowing how you evolve and change, knowing that these things come and go in various seasons, this is an essential form of wisdom. Because once you know, okay, hey, my best work, my best thinking comes at between 7am and 11am Then you've gotta have the discipline to make decisions around that, that then you know, to make it come full circle that produces the kinds of insights or understanding that you're trying to produce. So again, all these things are very interrelated, but they descend. As we were saying that knowing yourself, knowing your environment, being able to look and observe patterns in both yourself in the world and other people is an essential thing that you have to do.
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Dan Harris
Coming up, Ryan Holiday talks about how to create a second brain, how to find a teacher for yourself, how to manage your ego, how to navigate your.
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Jeff Warren
Blind spots, and much more.
- [27:01]
Dan Harris
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- [29:50]
Jeff Warren
Another thing you talk about in the book. And again, this is all under the first Part of the book where you're talking about the training ground for wisdom. And we'll get to the later parts of the book later. But another of your recommendations is to create a second brain. What does that mean?
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Ryan Holiday
It's an amazing term, this idea of creating a second brain. It's a term that I think was invented in, like, the last 10 years, but it describes a very timeless thing that almost all the philosophical and literary and creative minds that we admire have practiced for centuries, which is this idea of, like, a commonplace book or a journal. The idea of reading, talking to the dead, as we talked about, but then finding some way to synthesize and transfer that knowledge into a form that you can easily access, carry with you and cultivate over the course of your life is what we're talking about there. So, for me, I use note cards. I read a book, I fold pages, I write in the margins as I do, and then after I let it sit for a bit, I process. I take extracts out of the book, ideas that it brought up, quotes that I like, things that I want to research, and I transfer that onto these note cards, which then become the building blocks of my books. But also, you know, just changes things I do in my life, in my business, all of this. So it's not just enough to read and explore and be intellectually curious. You're just lying to yourself if you think that it's just being stored in your mind somewhere. It's not. It's going into a black hole for the most part. So I spent a lot of time talking about, you know, strategies from different people over the centuries. You know, Emerson's system is a little bit different than Eric Hopper's, which is a little bit different than Montaigne's, which is a little bit different than Joan Didion's. But what is the process by which you are recording and organizing what you're learning? Because if you're not, you're not really learning it.
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Jeff Warren
Don't you think people like us mean you have an advantage in this regard? Because we have the excuse of our writing careers and our podcasting careers that we.
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Ryan Holiday
Yes.
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Jeff Warren
It forces a kind of internalization that the casual reader, who's got a whole other life to worry about, can't often access?
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Ryan Holiday
Yes. Although I'll give you, just because I'm an index card nerd, I gave a talk several years ago at the Reagan Library, and I agreed to do it. In exchange, I said, look, I'll come do this talk, but I would like to go through the archive and look at Ronald Reagan's note cards. And they were like, we're actually surprised that you, you know about them because they're not super well known. But Ronald Reagan, from his earliest days as a movie star, then later his days as a spokesman, he was a pitch man and spokesman, I think, for General Electric. And then when he became sort of a political, I think he ran the Screen Actors Guild, then he ran for governor and then president. What he would do is he was always reading and talking to people and then he would write things down on three by five note cards and then he would store them in these photo binders organized by theme. And so his reputation later. And we don't have to get into his specific politics as you could take them or leave him, but his sort of genius as this folksy guy who always had the perfect story, the perfect anecdote, the right little statistic or yarn that seemed like it was organic and natural, but was in fact incredibly studious and well researched. And so most of the people that you admire that you think are winging it and in fact have some sort of system like this. So I don't think it just works for writers. Yes, it's a wonderful excuse for all of us, but if you're the CEO of a company, if you are trying to teach something to your 16 year old, it's better that you don't have to go. You know, I think I read somewhere one time there was this idea about X, Y or Z, or I heard once from somebody, I don't remember the exact wording of it. I you're going to want to draw on these things and at some point in your life, you're going to want to draw on this store of wisdom or knowledge. And if you haven't done the work before, you know that you're going to need it. It's not going to be there for you to draw on.
- [34:17]
Jeff Warren
Another thing you recommend is to find a teacher. This is actually a question I get a lot because this is going to reveal me to be the type of schmuck who reads his comments. But I read a comment recently somewhere that was complaining about this podcast and the fact that many of the people I bring on are Buddhist teachers who are friends of mine and are legitimately my teachers too. And this person was saying, I think with some justification, you're kind of a dick for that because it's kind of flaunting to us that you have all of these teachers that we don't have access to. So I'm curious to hear what you Say like when you recommend to people find your teacher, what does that look like?
- [34:58]
Ryan Holiday
Well, I want to let you off the hook first because I think you could say that what you're doing is actually act of service and even generosity. Instead of just pursuing this stuff on your own, you're choosing to interview and talk to these people in a way that makes it public. And by the way, free. You've put out hundreds and hundreds of hours of these discussions that to otherwise access these teachers wisdoms, we would either be expensive or impossible because they don't just take on random students. And so we talked about cheating earlier. Part of the cheat code that you and I have figured out is that, hey, we can have access to people that we otherwise wouldn't have access to because we're going to share that knowledge with a wider audience and it allows it to scale. I think you figured something out there and I think it's very much of use. But you know, I told you that story about Zeno. So Zeno ends up in the Agora, he hears the reading of Socrates. He's having this conversation with the dead, but he isn't content just to talk to the dead. Actually, his first question to that bookseller is, where can I find a man like that? Meaning Socrates? Like, where can I find someone like Socrates? Because Socrates is dead. And although it's wonderful to read his dialogues, it would be ideal to have a dialogue with someone as wise or approaching the wisdom of Socrates. And as it happens, a cynic philosopher named Crates is walking by at this very moment. The bookseller simply raises his hand and points at him and Zeno becomes a student of Crates and his wife. Just to give credit to the female philosophers of the ancient world, his wife has a very difficult to pronounce name. So I won't embarrass myself, but she was not a nameless individual. But the point is, this sort of philosophical team of Crates and his wife are the foremost philosophical influences of Zeno's life. And Crates nickname in Athens was the door opener, which I think is such a great way of expressing what the best teachers do. They not only open doors, they open doors to rooms we didn't even know existed. And so, yeah. Who is your teacher on your journey? I talk in the book both about teachers and mentors. Can you draw a clear line between one or the other? I don't know where one begins and the other ends exactly. But you know, who are you learning from? At whose feet are you studying at? Obviously there are some people who are totally self taught who find they learn by experience and books exclusively. That is more the exception than the rule. You've got to find the people who you can ask a million questions to. To go back to what we were talking about, that patient teacher who is willing to direct and orient you towards the things that you need and want to know.
- [37:47]
Jeff Warren
Feels to me like there are many options here, many sort of levels to this. There's the parasocial teaching relationship you can have with people you believe to be wise out in the world, who are sure dead or alive, like the dead people that you've we talked about earlier, or live people who are podcasters or authors giving speeches that you can attend. So there's that. And you can do your best to get close to them if that's within your realm of possibility. But then there are also, like people in your life who are never going to be on Mike on a podcast.
- [38:19]
Ryan Holiday
Yes.
- [38:20]
Jeff Warren
But are just naturally wise to experience.
- [38:22]
Dan Harris
Your grandmother, some teacher you had in.
- [38:25]
Jeff Warren
High school that you reconnect with, et cetera. It's a boss or at the office who. Or even a colleague at the office who just seems to have some aspect of wisdom that you can. They don't have to be a perfect teacher, but they can be good enough and you can accumulate enough of them to triangulate your way toward progress.
- [38:43]
Ryan Holiday
There's a lot of things that you can learn from people telling you that's a talk you would attend, or a book you would read, or a video you would watch, or a podcast you might listen to. And then there's some things that I think you kind of need to be shown. And that's probably where your teacher comes in. And there's some things that need to be tailored exactly to you. I talk a lot in the book about Montaigne, the French thinker. He talks about while he was at school. He has this teacher that understands. He doesn't name the teacher. We can sort of triangulate and guess who it was. But this teacher understands that even the curriculum in class and the assigned reading is not going to be everything that Montaigne needs. And so they work out this agreement that he gives him access. You know, books being rarer in these days, the printing press being a relatively recent invention that he's allowed to raid his teacher's bookshelf, you know, and we can imagine the teacher also picking out some specific titles and going, hey, I need you to read this one I'm writing right now about Admiral James Stockdale, who's one of the few sort of modern Proponents of stoicism. And I'm just getting to the point right now where he's at Stanford, he's getting a graduate degree, and everything he learns in all of his classes is great. But then he has this sort of side relationship with a professor named Philip Rhinelander who begins to sort of do a series of extracurricular assignments for him, books that he has to read. And then Stockdale comes and they schedule one hour a week for discussion where they just talk about these books. I think most of us, and if not, then I think we should all count ourselves as incredibly fortunate to have this, have one of those kind of intellectual relationships in our life, someone further ahead than us, someone we admire, someone who possesses some amount of wisdom, who sort of charts out a course of study or experiences for us. And we either listen to them or we don't. But when we look back, we go, I wouldn't have gotten where I am without that kind of one on one instruction.
- [40:55]
Jeff Warren
Okay, I'm going to reset for the listener. We're talking about Ryan's new book, Wisdom Takes Work. The book is divided into three parts. We're never going to cover everything in the book. You should go buy it and read it. We've just spent some time talking about a few of the aspects of part one of the book, which is the training ground for wisdom. The second part of the book is about the shit you should avoid. The Sirens, the perilous rocks of which you must beware. Before I get into the specific Sirens, why dedicate a whole section of the book to the stuff you must avoid on the path toward wisdom?
- [41:36]
Ryan Holiday
If we think that wisdom is simply the acquisition of knowledge and experience and, you know, teachings and advice, we're obviously missing something because you can learn a whole lot. But if you don't remove certain tendencies, if you don't avoid certain pitfalls, you can end up being something that I think appears in most of the different philosophical and spiritual traditions, which is, you know, the intelligent fool, right? You can have all the knowledge in the world, but be stupid at some level. And so I came to understand that wisdom is both all these things that you're learning and then it's also all this foolishness that you're trying to avoid or excise, right? Like there's the learning and then there's. I don't know about you. The first time you. You sort of are informed about all these different cognitive biases that humans are susceptible to. So on the one hand, you're learning something, and then what you're actually Learning is how to beware or avoid these sort of timeless traps or blind spots that all of us have. And so I wanted to spend a lot of time on that because I think that's probably what causes most of the suffering and the evil in the world is not ignorance per se. It's something different.
- [42:55]
Jeff Warren
Okay, so under sirens, in this section where we're talking not so much about commission, but omission.
- [43:02]
Ryan Holiday
Yeah.
- [43:02]
Jeff Warren
One of the entries is called Empty the Cup.
- [43:06]
Ryan Holiday
Yeah.
- [43:06]
Jeff Warren
What does that mean?
- [43:07]
Ryan Holiday
Well, this is the famous Zen story of the teacher and the student sitting down for tea. The teacher goes to fill the cup and it overflows. And he says, you know, our mind is like this cup. If it's not empty, it can't take any knowledge in. I wanted to talk about a couple things there. One, ego being a thing that often fills our cup and prevents us from learning. And then also the biases and the prejudices or the habits or the preconceived notions, whatever you want to call them, that while perhaps they don't fill the cup exactly. What they tend to do is poison or taint whatever you put in the cup. And so the idea of sort of clearing the mind, understanding what we're bringing to things, and trying to empty that out as much as possible to me, seems like an essential part of this sort of wisdom journey.
- [44:02]
Jeff Warren
What are your modalities for doing that?
- [44:06]
Ryan Holiday
Yeah, it's a good question. To me, journaling is a big one. I tend to like stoic philosophy is this idea of sort of pausing and reflecting. So I try to go, okay, I have this opinion. I have this view. This is my first impression of the matter and not allowing myself to go with that, but to stop and go, okay, what's acting on my opinion here? What is informing my impression here? The Stoics talk about taking all of our emotions, our judgments, our views of things, and putting them to the test. So this kind of process of not going with your first instinct or reacting immediately in the moment is, I think, one of the more essential parts of it. And ego is one of the ones that I'm always trying to check for. My view is sort of. Ego is the root of most of the big failures and conflicts of the world. And whenever we can ask ourselves, hey, am I acting out of ego here? Where is my ego? Distorting what I'm seeing and feeling and experiencing, and how can I remove that from the equation? The better we're going to do.
- [45:08]
Jeff Warren
And by ego, and I know you wrote a whole book about the ego so I'm going to be annoying and ask for another definitional question. Do you mean just like an inflated sense of the self?
- [45:20]
Ryan Holiday
Yeah, not the Freudian ego exactly, but that sort of colloquial ego. Donald Trump being the embodiment of that ego, probably. Right. This sort of narcissism and inflated sense of worth, as you said. Maybe another less triggering way to think about is like your identity as a person. Right. I am this, I am that. I don't want to be this. I don't want to be that. That thing getting in the way of what is actually, you know, a little bit of feedback or what's actually a totally innocent remark or. Or something that has absolutely nothing to do with you. That's where ego gets in the way. In recovery, they sometimes talk about ego as being a conscious separation from. I think that's an interesting definition. It's something that's getting in between you and whatever's happening. Actually, the acronym they sometimes use, and I don't even think this necessarily has to be religious, but they said ego stands for edging God out. It's just something that's pushing away this because it threatens the identity or your sense of self.
- [46:26]
Jeff Warren
Yeah. That's actually quite profound. I have not spent a lot of time in the recovery world, but every time somebody talks about it, I'm like, yeah, they're really onto something there. And that sense of separation, I mean, that goes really deep. Like we have this sense of ourselves as encased in some sort of armor, separate from a dangerous universe, when in fact, I mean, that's all an illusion. You are created entirely from non Ryan stuff.
- [46:56]
Ryan Holiday
Yeah.
- [46:56]
Jeff Warren
And yet you feel very much like Ryan. And so how can you not let that sense of Ryan, which is true on some level, if you look in the mirror, you'll see Ryan, but on some deep level is actually an illusion. How can you not let that separation fuck up your decisions?
- [47:16]
Ryan Holiday
Well, and here's where I experience it quite practically. Right. Like the stereotype of like the egotistical artist or the egotistical politician or the egotistical CEO. The problem with that ego is that what each of those people is doing is fundamentally about someone else. Right. Like you're making art that's supposed to sure, speak to your experience, but it has to resonate with other people. The CEO is making something of value that other people will willingly exchange time and money for. The politician has to be the representative of the people. Has to like the people, has to understand what they're experiencing and what their needs are. And what their emotions are. And so the problem with ego is that it makes everything about you and most of what we're doing in life, professionally and personally, is by definition not about us. And so that's where ego really gets in the way of what you're trying to do or really what you need to do to be successful at that thing.
- [48:22]
Jeff Warren
So along those lines, there's another entry in this part of the book around, you know, the Sirens, the dangerous stuff on the path to wisdom. There's another little chapter here called don't be a know it all.
- [48:34]
Ryan Holiday
Yeah, Epictetus line was, remember, it is impossible to learn that which you think you already know. And I think that gets right to it, right? Because there's something self fulfilling about being a know it all. It's not that you know everything, but you know all that it's possible for you to know, right? Because you don't think there's anything else for you to learn. And so the irony of humility is that it actually makes you smarter. We've been talking about the Oracle of Delphi. At some point, Athens dispatches someone to the Oracle. And it actually wasn't until I was in Greece this summer that I truly understood how far the Oracle is from Athens. It was a several hour drive, right? And then I'm like, oh, how did they get here? In the ancient world, it occurred to me that part of the function of the Oracle must have been as a cooling off mechanism. Like it's going to take them a week or two by boat or a month or two by foot to get there. Like it must have functioned as the founders supposedly said the Senate was supposed to as the saucer that cools the cup. But at some point, Athens dispatches a messenger to the Oracle to ask, is there anyone wiser than Socrates? And the answer comes back, no, no one is wiser than Socrates. And this is all quite baffling to Socrates because he doesn't feel that he's wise. And it's only as he takes his quiet time to focus and reflect that he realizes that perhaps this is what the Oracle meant. That his lack of certainty about his wisdom, his intellectual humility, his interest in asking questions instead of providing answers, that is in fact the source of whatever wisdom he does possess. And so if we can understand that the more we focus on what we don't know, the more we will come to know, and the less we sort of reflect and glory in all that we have learned, the better we're going.
- [50:36]
Jeff Warren
To be, didn't stop Socrates from Getting himself killed.
- [50:40]
Ryan Holiday
It's true. Maybe that was him being a little proud of himself.
- [50:44]
Jeff Warren
This is a total digression, but I just read this novel set in the ancient world set in Syracuse, called Glorious Exploits. Have you read it?
- [50:52]
Ryan Holiday
Who's it by?
- [50:53]
Jeff Warren
It's by a first time Irish novelist whose name is evading me now, but will I will put it in the show notes. My friend Zev recommended this book. It's very funny and to me why it's coming to mind right now is it gave me this feeling that listening to you gives me too. Which is just a scintilla of a taste of what it must have been like to live at that time.
- [51:20]
Ryan Holiday
The reason I ask is the best book that I read this year, by the way, talking about speaking to the dead. Often my favorite book of the year is never published in that year that I'm reading it. It's often like some book that was incredibly popular 20 years ago, 50 years ago, 500 years ago, and I'm just hearing about it for the first time. But I read this book, the Last of the Wine by Mary Renault, which is a novel about basically Periclean Athens. Socrates is one of the main characters and it was like hugely popular many, many years ago. It's so easy to think about these historical figures as like, you know, you think of Socrates walking around Athens in his toga. Oh, it was so wonderful. And they're just kicking around ideas. I mean, Socrates lives through a great power conflict between Athens and Sparta, a series of wars, one of which he fights, in which his country loses, by the way. And then he lives through a time called the 30 Tyrants. And then later he's put to death. Like he lived in this incredibly fitful, uncertain, chaotic, stressful time. And we just totally misremember what the past was actually like. Like the past was exactly like things are right now. Which is to say a complete mess. Feels like the world is ending all the time. Feels like everyone is uniquely awful and stupid and cruel and we're going to fuck it all up. And it's like that's what they felt like. Montaigne lived through the Reformation and the Counter Reformation. Like his whole period of like retreating to his study to think about things that wasn't a voluntary choice. He was worried about being burned at the stake and that's why he retires from public life.
- [53:08]
Jeff Warren
So just to pick up on that, what you said about Socrates and the Athenians losing wars, this book, Glorious Exploits is set in. I said Syracuse and I didn't know until I read the book that Syracuse was on Sicily and the Athenians had invaded at the point in this where this book takes place and had lost. And they were keeping a bunch of the POWs, the prisoners of war, in the bottom of a quarry.
- [53:36]
Ryan Holiday
Yes.
- [53:37]
Jeff Warren
And some locals got this madcap idea to put on an Athenian play using the Athenian prisoners. Hilarity ensues.
- [53:47]
Ryan Holiday
So two things related to that, right, about how interconnected all this stuff was. That failed, flawed invasion is led by Alcibiades, whose Socrates's student protege, who's your classic example of a brilliant, egotistical, narcissistic fool. And those prisoners, because the Athenians get, like, absolutely decimated, just went through. They were basically, like, worked to death in these horrible camps and they almost all died. It was brutal. But I didn't know about this novel, and now I'm very excited to read it.
- [54:29]
Jeff Warren
Listeners should know that Ryan is the proprietor of a bookstore. If you find yourself in Austin, Texas, or the environs, you should go check out his bookstore, which is called the.
- [54:38]
Ryan Holiday
Painted Porch, just to make it all full circle. That's where Zeno sets up in the Agora. It's the Stoa Poquchile, or the Painted Porch is where he begins to host his philosophical discussions. So that's where the name comes from.
- [54:56]
Jeff Warren
So let's keep going with some of the sirens.
- [54:58]
Ryan Holiday
Yeah.
- [54:59]
Jeff Warren
This is more of a commission than omission, but it's, I think, worth talking about.
- [55:04]
Dan Harris
Seek criticism.
- [55:06]
Ryan Holiday
Yeah. The problem with success is that the stakes become ever higher and the. Your access to accurate information, feedback and criticism is less and less. I've thought about this practically on this very book. I sent in the first draft of it, and my publisher was like, sounds good. I have a decent track record. We've worked together a long time. And they basically were just like, okay, this is good to go. And I had to go, no, no, no, no, no, it's definitely not. There is no way that it was. Right. And so it's funny, earlier in my career, both out of ego and then also as you're sort of fighting to do what you're trying to do, my problem was too much feedback, too much criticism, people trying to tell me what I could and couldn't do. And you had this kind of antagonistic relationship with feedback. And then the irony is once you succeed at some level, that goes away. And that's actually not a privilege, it's a kind of a curse. You know, I ended up having to do quite a bit of work to get the feedback and criticism that I needed to get the book where I think it needed to end up. Obviously, you know, this is a minor example, but you can imagine the president doesn't get many people telling him they're not doing a good job. There's a story that Gerald Ford, speaking of presidents, Gerald Ford was fond of this story about Abraham Lincoln when he was inspecting the defenses around the Union lines. He's obviously so tall that a Confederate sharpshooter takes a shot at Lincoln and just barely misses. And a Union soldier, you know, petrified, he goes, get down, you fool. And he said, that may have been the only and the last time that anyone called an American president a fool to their face. That is, let's say, less a risk in a democracy where you have freedom of speech. But you can imagine not many people are able to tell Vladimir Putin that he's fucking up this Ukraine thing and that he made a colossal mistake and needs to back out. Right. Dictators, presidents, celebrities, CEOs, etc. Don't get the feedback or criticism that they need to improve and get better. And so if you don't cultivate a practice in your life and as well as a network, later in the book, I talk about cultivating a board of advisors. If you don't cultivate that, you're not just going to stop getting better, you're going to start getting worse.
- [57:41]
Jeff Warren
You can see it in Kim Jong Un's fashion choices.
- [57:44]
Ryan Holiday
Yeah. And this is why you read the comments on your videos, right?
- [57:50]
Jeff Warren
Thank you for putting my dumb behavior into the most positive light.
- [57:54]
Ryan Holiday
I will say just one thing. What feedback to let in and not let in is really the question. Is it feedback from random people on the Internet? Probably not. Right? And so that is the art of it. It's not what everyone thinks. But how do you get it from the right people in the right way?
- [58:12]
Jeff Warren
Coming up, Ryan talks about how to.
- [58:13]
Dan Harris
Seek out criticism, embrace complexity, and how to learn how to die.
- [58:18]
Jeff Warren
Keep it here.
- [58:24]
Dan Harris
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- [59:00]
Jeff Warren
Of stuff for her home study that I know she's really happy with, and.
- [59:03]
Dan Harris
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- [59:04]
Jeff Warren
To her study that it looks really good.
- [59:07]
Dan Harris
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- [59:09]
Jeff Warren
They've got a wide array of options.
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Dan Harris
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- [59:56]
Jeff Warren
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- [59:57]
Dan Harris
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- [60:28]
Jeff Warren
I got a lot of Quint stuff. I like their stuff a lot.
- [60:31]
Dan Harris
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- [61:00]
Jeff Warren
We talked about the first two parts of the book, the training ground and then the sirens, the stuff you should avoid en route, hopefully to Wisdom. Part three of the book is called the Apotheosis or the Touching of the Divine. What does that mean? And what's the relationship to Wisdom?
- [61:18]
Ryan Holiday
Yeah, so what I ended up kind of doing in each of the four books in this series is kind of like there's like your beginner level. There's your intermediate level and then there's your sort of advanced level. There's some kind of transcendent level of each of these virtues. There's a sort of ordinary courage of a person who gets up and speaks their mind. And then there's the courage of the person who's willing to go to jail for an idea or willing to be executed for said idea, right? And I think with wisdom there's obviously the sort of educational process we all have to undergo. There's the sort of foolishness and error that we try to avoid. And then there is some level of, kind of transcendent wisdom. Gandhi's education is fascinating to me, right? He has some ordinary schooling in India, then he goes to London for law school, which is where he really becomes a critical thinker and engages with a bunch of the intellectual ideas that shape him for the rest of his life. But we don't call him the Mahatma because he got a degree in London in the law, right? There's some other level of education and learning and insight and understanding that he learns first in South Africa, both as a practicing lawyer and then as a fledgling activist and then later when he goes back to India. So my point in the third part of the book is just the ideal, the highest level of wisdom. And I talk a lot about Lincoln because Lincoln's fascinating in this regard. You know, he sort of mirrors all these different levels. His self education as a young man was obviously essential, but it's actually later in life, kind of the last 15 or so years of his life, that he becomes the sort of Abraham Lincoln, the great man of history. And that education and that transformation is what I'm sort of not just most interested in, but I think we all ought to aspire to at some level.
- [63:16]
Jeff Warren
So let's talk about the how of that. You have a lot of recommendations, but let me throw a couple of them at you and get you to hold forth one of them. You've got a chapter here under this third part of the book called Embrace the Mystery. What do you mean by that?
- [63:30]
Ryan Holiday
Before you know stuff, you think the world is very simple and then you study and you learn and it becomes a little bit more complex. And then you study it more and more and it becomes simple again. And then you study more and more and it becomes complex again. I guess what I'm talking about, and I talk about this a lot in part three of the book is the complexity and contradiction, the ineffability of things like even the idea of wisdom. I think I've gotten better at going, like, I actually don't know how to define wisdom exactly, I don't think. And perhaps the definition of it is actually not the important thing. So I just wanted to spend some time in the book talking about that ineffability, that contradiction, that complexity. I think this is why often some of the wisest people love fiction and poetry and the arts. They're, in a way, almost a poem comes better to encapsulating the truth of something than a textbook can, even though it's attacking the problem from a very different angle.
- [64:41]
Jeff Warren
Speaking of truth, there's also a chapter here called Suffer Into Truth.
- [64:45]
Ryan Holiday
Yeah, it's very hard to achieve any kind of real or lasting wisdom without paying for it. The ancient said, we suffer into truth. That was Aeschylus, which, by the way, Robert F. Kennedy, the first one, famously quotes this line to a raucous crowd in Indianapolis the night that they all simultaneously learn that Martin Luther King, Jr. Has been killed. He was speaking of his own painful lessons from his brother's death, that you want to be angry, you want to rage, and then he just, you know, sort of, where does violence in this way take you? He was just talking about these lessons that we have learned painfully over our experience as a human race and then also individually in our own lives. And so, you know, when we talk about learning by trial and error, some of those errors are going to be embarrassing and humiliating and costly and expensive, and the redeeming quality that comes out of them has to be the insight and the understanding. You can suffer and screw up and not take wisdom out of it, too, I guess. So that's the choice that you have.
- [66:00]
Jeff Warren
I shudder to think how many times I've made the wrong choice in this regard. But moving along, there's another chapter here I want to hear you talk about, which is called Grasp the Essence.
- [66:11]
Ryan Holiday
The story I tell in that chapter is about Lincoln writing the Gettysburg Address, which is word for word, pound for pound, one of the greatest things ever written in the English language. And then also most impactful things ever written in the English language. I talked about his sort of deep dive into slavery and the history of America there. That speech is the distillation of all of that study, of all of those talks, of all of that suffering that he had experienced personally and then witnessed as he toured these battlefields and read the casualty counts. What Lincoln is doing there is articulating fundamentally what America is, should be and could be, and the fact that he does it in what, like 260 Some odd words is all the more remarkable when you learn, and I didn't learn this in school, that he was not the main speaker of the day. Edward Everett was widely considered America's greatest orator at that time. He spoke for two hours before Lincoln. The Gettysburg Address was shorter than the invocation, the prayer that kicked off the events there at Gettysburg. But Everett tells Lincoln, either that evening or the next day, that he came closer to expressing the essence of what needed to be expressed in two minutes than Everett had done in two hours. That was not a magic trick. That was the culmination of an intellectual and spiritual journey that had gone back to Lincoln's earliest days.
- [67:56]
Jeff Warren
I can't remember if the words I'm about to utter come from the Gettysburg Address or the Second Inaugural, but the idea of malice toward none and charity toward all that just seems to me to be desperately lacking in our culture right now.
- [68:12]
Ryan Holiday
You're totally right. It is in the Second Inaugural. But to go to our point about expressing the essence, the idea, if you've been to the Lincoln Memorial, that his two greatest pieces of writing and Lincoln was a writer. There's actually a great book called Lincoln Biography of a Writer that I recommend to a lot of people. We think of him as a politician giving speeches, but these were meticulously crafted documents that oftentimes he just read. He fished a scrap of paper out of his pocket and read the Gettysburg Address. But the fact that those two speeches could fit on, I think, three tablets in the Lincoln Memorial is just magnificent statement of brevity and distillation. I think the Second Inaugural Address is like one of the shortest inaugural addresses, and yet it is the best. Someone pointed out to me once, and I don't know if it's true, and I don't want to look it up because I just like thinking about it, that every sentence and phrase in the Second Inaugural has become a book title. And you go, yeah, probably, because every phrase in it is perfect.
- [69:18]
Jeff Warren
A couple more questions for you before I let you go. There's a chapter here right at the end called Past the Final Test.
- [69:25]
Ryan Holiday
Yeah. Cicero said that to philosophize is to learn how to die. That the whole point of philosophy was to prepare us for the one thing that we're all going to do. So of all the things that I'm writing about in the book, this is obviously the one I have the least experience in. And I have no idea whether I'm right or not. But if the dead can teach us anything, I'm just trying to sort of Channel what they have spoken to us about. The idea being that all philosophy is aimed at both living well and then ultimately dying well. I wanted to talk about sort of some of the lessons that death teaches us and then sort of how we orient ourselves. I opened the book with Montaigne, and I end it with Montaigne. And he loved that line from Cicero. But he had written that he hopes death will find him planting cabbages. And what he meant was that he hoped death would find him in the course of an ordinary, regular moment of life, that he was living well. And I think there's something kind of Zen about that. It's kind of the perfect expression. But, you know, death is ever present. The Stoics want us to remember that death isn't a thing that happens at the end. That in fact, death is happening now. So Seneca would say that actually I do have some familiarity with death because I've already died nearly 40 years. That if we think about death as this thing that is a part of our existence and a part of our life, not just that the people we love and know are dying all around us all the time, but that we ourselves are dying with the passage of time, I think we are grasping a fundamental piece of wisdom that can be life changing.
- [71:06]
Jeff Warren
There's a final phrase I want to ask you about. Thou mayest.
- [71:10]
Ryan Holiday
Ooh, yes, this is Steinbeck. Have you read east of Eden?
- [71:15]
Jeff Warren
A long time ago.
- [71:16]
Ryan Holiday
It is worth rereading because it is an incredible book. I reread it early in the Pandemic. A beautiful, magnificent kind of epic novel which, by the way, has a lot of Stoicism in it. The Chinese servant to the main family is this philosopher who's always quoting Marcus Aurelius to the two boys. In any case, Steinbeck writes this book about writing east of Eden, and it's called Letters From a Novel, I think. Anyways, he's talking to his editor and he says basically the fundamental premise of the book, and he thinks this is his insight into the ancient traditions too, is that the commandments are not thou shall not, as in like you absolutely are not allowed to do these things, but that thou mayest that you have the choice not to. And that who we are is ultimately about making this choice. That free will is the essential part of the Christian tradition, part of the virtue tradition, which is that no one is making you do or not do these things. And that perhaps hell or heaven is the wrong way to think about it too, because then it's like you've got a gun to your Head that there's a punishment for doing or not doing the right thing. He's saying that it's a choice and that this choice is the thing that matters, that says who we are. And so I begin and end the series calling back to that story about the choice of Hercules which was so informative for Socrates and then later for Zeno. The choice of Hercules being this very idea that Hercules comes to the crossroads, the choice between virtue and vice. And the path of vice, he is told, will be easy and straightforward and wonderful and pleasurable and all of these things. And that the path to virtue will be hard and difficult and may not pay off. And which one is he going to choose? That that's the choice of Hercules and that's the choice that we have to make as individuals.
- [73:23]
Jeff Warren
And.
- [73:23]
Ryan Holiday
And by the way, just like a little crazy thing, I was surprised to learn John Adams thought that the choice of Hercules should be what's on the seal of the United States, not the eagle. He thought the choice of Hercules was fundamentally what a country built around liberty was, saying that the government can't tell you to do or not do these things, but you, as the individual given the choice, may or may not do these things. And what you choose is who you are.
- [73:57]
Jeff Warren
It's always great to talk to you. I'm going to ask the two questions I always ask at the end of the show, habitually. The first is, is there anything you were hoping that we would get to that we didn't get to?
- [74:07]
Ryan Holiday
No. This is amazing. I always love talking with you.
- [74:10]
Jeff Warren
The second question is just can you remind everybody of the books you've written and any other stuff that they should know about from you, the Daily Stoic, et cetera, et cetera. Please just step into the plug zone.
- [74:22]
Ryan Holiday
Yeah, well, ego wise, this one's much easier for me. So the Stoic Virtue series, Courage is calling, Discipline is destiny, right thing right now, and wisdom takes work. That's what I just finished. Those are available anywhere. And then I'm probably best known for my book the Daily stoic. And then dailystoic.com, which is a. A stoic inspired email every day. And then podcast and YouTube stuff so that you can find at Daily Stoic pretty much everywhere you would go.
- [74:53]
Jeff Warren
Ryan, thanks again for making time for this. Awesome to talk to you always.
- [74:57]
Ryan Holiday
Now this is amazing. All right, hope to see you soon.
- [75:05]
Dan Harris
Thanks again to Ryan Holiday.
- [75:06]
Jeff Warren
As I said at the top, love how having that guy on the show.
- [75:09]
Dan Harris
Before I leave you, just want to remind you to sign up for my new app 10% with Dan Harris, my new meditation app. You can sign up over@danharris.com there's a free 14 day trial if you want to try before you buy. Lots of amazing stuff going on over there. I'm really proud of my team for.
- [75:26]
Jeff Warren
All the work they're doing over there.
- [75:28]
Dan Harris
And finally, I just want to thank everybody who worked so hard to make this show. Our producers are Tara Anderson and Eleanor Vasily. Our recording and engineering is handled by the great folks over at Pod People. Lauren Smith is our managing producer, Marissa Schneiderman is our senior producer. DJ Cashmere is our executive producer. And Nick Thorburn of the band Islands wrote our theme.
- [76:03]
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