Stop Trying to Become Someone New: Get Past Constant Comparison and Return to What Works For You | Sam Sanders

Summary

Podcast Summary: "Stop Trying to Become Someone New: Get Past Constant Comparison and Return to What Works For You"

10% Happier with Dan Harris | Guest: Sam Sanders | March 27, 2026

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Main Theme & Purpose

This episode explores the power of returning to personally meaningful pieces of art, music, film, and television—what guest Sam Sanders calls "modern scriptures"—as sources of happiness, solace, and grounding. Dan and Sam reflect on the importance of aesthetic experiences in mental well-being, the influence of habit and comparison (especially through social media), and celebrate the underrated practice of simply returning to what already works for personal joy and peace.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Concept of "Modern Scriptures"

Definition & Origin

• Sam shares how meaningful cultural works ("modern scriptures")—articles, movies, music, etc.—become wells of comfort, inspiration, and catharsis to which we reliably return.
• The phrase began after repeated readings of a New York Times profile on Melissa McCarthy brought Sam comfort; he realized certain art pieces could function like secular scripture.

“We have to have things that we love, that we hold onto, that no one else can take from us.” — Sam (13:53)

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2. The Psychological Science of Beauty and Art

Why Return Matters

• Dan notes research showing how engagement with beauty and aesthetic experiences is key for human flourishing.
• Art, especially music, can quickly and reliably shift mood.

“You can use art…to shift your mood, the way you were doing with Taffy's piece on Melissa McCarthy.” — Dan (14:46)

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3. Pop Culture Picks: Dan & Sam’s Modern Scriptures

A. Ferris Bueller’s Day Off

• Dan’s frequent family re-watch; finds joy in its “frothy but flawless” execution and its subtle life wisdom.

“Life moves pretty fast. If you don’t stop and look around once in a while, you could miss it. It’s a very Buddhist sentiment.” — Dan (17:42)

• Both connect the film’s letting-go moments (the destruction of the vintage car) to Buddhist teachings on impermanence and non-attachment.

“You will get rope burn [if you cling too tightly]…we have to deal with what is now reality.” — Dan (19:10)

B. Song Sung Blue (Film)

• Sam’s new annual cry: a Neil Diamond tribute band musical starring Hugh Jackman & Kate Hudson.
• Describes it as hitting all the emotional beats—a reliable source for cathartic release and connection.

“I want art sometimes that will reliably take me out of whatever place I’m in. And usually it’s either a good laugh or a good cry.” — Sam (24:07)

C. Fleetwood Mac — "Rumors" & "Tusk"

• Dan defends “Tusk” as well as “Rumors”; Fleetwood Mac makes him emotional due to family associations.

“For me, Fleetwood Mac makes me quite emotional because I was raised with those records… it brings me back to when my parents were healthy.” — Dan (27:25)

• Sam admires their creative resilience through personal drama, highlighting how emotion fuels art.

“They are working through a breakup on wax, and they’re still gonna work together.” — Sam (30:48)

D. Aretha Franklin’s "Amazing Grace" (Live Album & Film)

• Sam picks Aretha’s gospel album as her best work, a source of affirmation, multi-generational resonance, and queer visibility (through James Cleveland’s story).

“It is Aretha at her peak. You can even watch this thing on mute… it’s so gorgeous.” — Sam (36:22)

E. Parks and Recreation (TV)

• Dan rewatched it throughout the pandemic and with his son for its warmth, optimism, and love of community and vocation.

“It’s really a show about love...You feel the warmth alongside the humor.” — Dan (39:02)

• Sam points out its celebration of characters rooted in caring vocations, not financial success.

F. Getting On (TV)

• Sam recommends this underrated HBO series about nurses, lauding its mix of comedy, drama, and celebration of purpose-driven work.

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4. Family, Parenting, and Watching Together

• Dan discusses how consuming TV and films with his 11-year-old opens opportunities for organic, non-lecture-based conversations about culture and ethics.

“If it comes up in the course of a piece of pop culture, then he is open to it for about 15 seconds.” — Dan (45:41)

• Both note that letting kids initiate questions leads to more fruitful dialogue.

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5. Comparison & Instagram’s Emotional Toll

• Dan admits the most reliable way to make himself unhappy is to open Instagram, prompting thoughts of deleting it.

“It is so ruthlessly effective at making me unhappy.” — Dan (51:22)

• Sam shares how Instagram’s barrage of accomplishments leads to feelings of inadequacy, despite knowing it’s a performance.

“It makes me feel grossly inadequate… And I have to remind myself, no, like, everyone’s performing for that app and you should just put it down.” — Sam (51:31)

• Both discuss small lifestyle tweaks (leaving phone in car trunk, tech-free dog walks) as mindful countermeasures.

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6. The Science (and Limits) of Resolutions

• Dan recaps the “fresh start effect” and evidence-based strategies to make new habits stick:
  • Make resolutions specific and small (“Start by putting sneakers by the door”).
  • Use social support for accountability.
  • Practice self-compassion—be kind to yourself in failure as you would to a friend.

“If you can just learn to talk to yourself in a kinder way, you’re more likely to reach your goals…” — Dan (49:39)

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7. The Practice—and Power—of Returning

• Sam closes with his theory: Instead of always striving for reinvention, allow the act of returning to what already brings comfort and meaning to be your resolution.

"Sometimes the act of return can be just as fulfilling... Returning to them and to those ideas and to those scriptures or whatever they are... It might not feel revolutionary, but it is edifying. And I have to remind myself, just return is enough.” — Sam (54:08)

• Dan builds: Sometimes “returning” really is revolutionary—a mindful practice of honoring what works.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments (with Timestamps)

• “We have to have things that we love, that we hold onto, that no one else can take from us.” — Sam (13:53)
• "You can use art...to shift your mood." — Dan (14:46)
• "Life moves pretty fast. If you don’t stop and look around once in a while, you could miss it." — Quoting Ferris Bueller, cited by Dan (17:34)
• "One of the most reliable ways to suffer is to cling too tightly in a world of unremitting, non negotiable change.” — Dan (19:10)
• “I want art sometimes that will reliably take me out of whatever place I’m in…Songsung Blue gives you both. They didn’t pay me to say this, but, yeah, you know, there’s… Sometimes art can be transcendent, and I like that.” — Sam (24:07)
• “For me, Fleetwood Mac makes me quite emotional because I was raised with those records. And it…brings me back to when my parents were healthy.” — Dan (27:25)
• “It is Aretha at her peak. You can even watch this thing on mute, Dan. It’s so gorgeous.” — Sam (36:22)
• “It’s really a show about love…You feel the warmth alongside the humor.” — Dan (39:02)
• “I have just noticed that the most reliable way to make myself unhappy is to open Instagram.” — Dan (51:22)
• “The act of returning…can be revolutionary. Returning to them and to those ideas and to those scriptures or whatever they are…It might not feel revolutionary, but it is edifying.” — Sam (54:08)

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Important Timestamps

• 06:37 — Instagram’s emotional toll (Dan and Sam on comparison)
• 13:00 — The origin and value of “modern scriptures”
• 15:52 — Ferris Bueller’s Day Off as a modern scripture (Dan)
• 20:31 — Song Sung Blue musical (Sam)
• 26:37 — Fleetwood Mac’s Rumors and Tusk, music as emotional time travel (Dan)
• 34:00 — Aretha Franklin’s Amazing Grace, gospel and queer history (Sam)
• 38:21 — Parks and Rec and the importance of vocation in fiction (Dan & Sam)
• 41:50 — Sam’s pitch for HBO’s “Getting On”
• 44:41 — Dan on watching and discussing media with his son
• 48:39 — The science and challenge of New Year’s resolutions (Dan)
• 51:22 — Tech boundaries; the downsides of Instagram (Dan & Sam)
• 54:08 — The wisdom of return and the power of “enough” (Sam)

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Final Reflections

Dan and Sam urge listeners to resist the constant drive for self-improvement and comparison, particularly the kind fueled by social media, and instead honor the rejuvenating practice of returning—over and over—to what honestly brings joy, solace, and connection. Their “modern scriptures” serve as reminders that sometimes, real change and happiness lie not in relentless novelty, but in returning to what already works.

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Transcript

[A]

Foreign.

[B]

This is the 10% happier podcast. I'm Dan Harris. Hey. Hey. How we doing? I think quite commonly when we contemplate the various levers we could pull to upgrade our mental health to get happier, we consider things like sleep, exercise, meditation, etc. But there's a ton of evidence to suggest that aesthetic experiences, I. E. Beauty, are also extremely powerful ways to boost your well being. This could be nature, but also, of course, art. And not just fine art that you see in museums. I'm talking about movies, music, TV shows, the stuff that I personally love. So today we're going to play you a conversation between me and my friend Sam, who I'll tell you about in a second about which pieces of art reliably produce happiness and meaning for us. The friend in question is Sam Sanders, who is the host of the Sam Sanders Show. I should say that we initially recorded this conversation that you're about to hear for Sam's show back at around New Year's, but we're dropping it for you here because we think you'll like it and also because we think you might want to check out Sam's show, which I highly recommend. He's awesome. As you'll hear, Sam has a term for the pieces of art, music, TV or film that we return to again and again. He calls them modern scriptures. So you're going to hear us discuss our modern scriptures. Side note, I'm recording this after several days of being alone in our house. My wife and son are overseas. I've been going back to old movies in the evening, specifically the Godfather movies and also some Martin Scorsese stuff, which I know just totally reveals my age, but those are definitely modern scriptures for me. Those old mafia movies and organized crime films, I can get totally sucked up into those. Anyway, Sam and I don't talk about those specifically, but I do mention many, many other modern scriptures of mine and we hear about his. It's also a wide ranging conversation that we get into why Instagram is reliably making me miserable and why I deleted it. What the research actually says about making resolutions stick. We recorded this close to New Year's, but this is true for anybody ever trying to form a habit. And we also talk about Sam's genuinely moving theory about why the act of return might be the most underrated practice there is. Okay, just a few quick things to say before we dive in here. This is the last day of a challenge that we're running over on the 10% with Dan Harris meditation app. The challenge has been called Even you can meditate. It's been awesome. Don't worry though, if you missed it, you can still access all of the great meditations from the challenge and much more. Head on over to danharris.com to download the app. Also, I've got two live in person events coming up. On May 17th, I'll be at the 92nd Street Y in New York City. I'll guide a meditation and take your questions. And coming up in October, it's the annual workshop I do with Seben A. Selassie and Jeff Warren Meditation Party October 16th through 18th at the Omega Institute in Upstate New York. I'll put links to both of these events in the show Notes okay, long intro. Sorry. My conversation with Sam Sanders coming up after this. This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp. March includes international Women's Day, a moment to celebrate women's strength and progress while also recognizing how much they carry every day. Between caring for others and managing unseen responsibilities, their emotional well being can easily be overlooked. One tool that can be incredibly powerful for women and for everybody is therapy. Shout out to my wife, a big believer in therapy, both individually and for everybody she knows and it's also something we do as a couple. My wife as a scientist is is aware of the the evidence for therapy and definitely puts it into practice in her own life. Therapy is a great way to create balance in your life, to learn how to set healthy boundaries and to support your Overall well being. BetterHelp therapists work according to a strict code of conduct and are fully licensed in the US. BetterHelp does the initial matching for you so you can focus on your therapy goals. A short questionnaire helps you identify your needs and preferences and then BetterHelp uses their 12 plus years of experience and industry leading match fulfillment rate which means they typically get it right the first time. If you're not happy with your match, you can switch to a different therapist at any time. With over 30,000 therapists, BetterHelp is the world's largest online therapy platform having served served over 6 million people globally and it works with an average rating of 4.9 out of 5 for a live session based on over 1.7 million client reviews. Your emotional well being matters. Find support and feel lighter in therapy. Sign up and get 10% [e-mail] happier that's betterhelp.com happier you ever get that dip of energy in the mid afternoon and it just feels like you're just trying to cut through soupy fog in order to get your brain to work? I don't know about you but I deal with this all the time. Which brings me to one of our sponsors today, Spark. This is a product that gives you energy and mental sharpness without trade offs. Spark Energy plus Focus is your go to pre workout ritual when you need reliable energy to power through a lift, run, ride or class. You can mix it, sip it and get dialed in ready to go. And it has zero grams of sugar and essential vitamins and amino acids for mental focus. I have to be candid and say that I can't use Spark personally because I can't have any caffeine. But one of the most effective and awesome members of my team in my company, my little company Taylor uses Spark and says it is awesome. Get steady controlled pre workout energy with 0 grams of sugar, 120 milligrams of caffeine for alertness and concentration delivering sustained energy, amino acids and taurine and help balance the caffeine without jitters or crashes. Also bold great tasting flavors you will look forward to drinking. Spark Energy plus Focus is offering 30% off and free shipping. Go to drinkspark.com and use the code Happier at checkout. That's [e-mail]. I'm thinking about deleting Instagram.

[A]

If I watch Instagram for 45 minutes or half an hour or 15 minutes, I'm convinced that everyone else who has a smartphone is making their own original music and music videos and building their own furniture and cooking all their own food. Like it makes me feel grossly inadequate.

[B]

So would you consider deleting it?

[A]

No, not yet. Not until I Hey y'. All, Sam here. So can I tell you a little secret? I mean, it's not really a secret. I just haven't talked about it too much just yet. Anywho, the secret is that I went to a silent meditation retreat last year. I know. This surprises me as well, because my job is literally to talk. This retreat was five days in upstate New York and I had to be totally quiet around other people who I couldn't talk to or even look directly in the eye. But to my surprise, it was great and it got me thinking a lot about how I can bring mindfulness into my life in all kinds of ways and even bring mindfulness into this show. So let's say I am dedicating this episode to that intention. But we're gonna do it in a roundabout way. We're not gonna just sit in silence and meditate this entire episode. Me and my very special guest are gonna share some pop culture rec that help us stay Grounded and centered and happy and mindful and all those good things. I call these recommendations Modern Scriptures because you can return to them over and over again like scripture. Get it. To have this conversation and share some modern pop culture scriptures, I'm joined by the most mindful podcaster I know. His name is Dan Harris. Dan is a former TV news anchor for shows like Nightline and Good Morning in America. But for many years now, Dan has become somewhat of a meditation and mindfulness expert. His very popular podcast is called 10% happier with Dan Harris. And this show has all these really deep and interesting conversations about mental health and the science of the mind and how we can all live better lives. This show is really great and I say that not just because I was on there once. It's a great show. Anyhoo, Dan Harris joins me today to share his modern scriptures. So let's get into it. I am going to tell you why I brought you on and my idea for the episode. But first, Dan Harris, please tell our listeners and viewers who you are and what you do.

[B]

Okay. The brief bio. My name is Dan Harris. I used to be a network news anchor. I was an anchorman on ABC News and a correspondent, war correspondent, in fact, for 20 years. And then I had a panic attack. There's probably the best, the, the thing I am best known for in my entire TV career was freaking out in front of an audience of 5 million people on Good Morning America. I had a panic attack and that led me to meditation. And then I wrote a book about that called 10% happier. And that book, which Barbara Walters confidently told me, don't quit your day job. That book got sufficiently popular that I was able to quit my day job. And now I'm like a full time. I don't know what I am, happiness expert or meditation evangelist. Something in that zone.

[A]

I like that. I like that. And you have a podcast called 10% happier. You have an app as well.

[B]

I have an app, it's called 10% with Dan Harris. For legal reasons right now that I won't go get into, but eventually it will be called 10% happier.

[A]

Yes, yes. And I've had the privilege of getting to know you through your work. I was on your show, gosh, a while back now and I had the honor of being able to meditate with you IRL a while back. And that was just a treat.

[B]

And so, yeah, I was very proud of you. I don't think you had done much meditation before you showed up for a little retreat that with me and a few other Friends. And you did a great job. It was very brave thing to do, and you did a great job.

[A]

You say little. It was several days in silence. I don't think I told you, but, you know, there were moments where we could go outside to meditate and have what y' all called walking meditations. And I was so. One day I was so discombobulated and missed talking and the sound of my own voice. I walked further than I was supposed to on the grounds, and when I got far enough to where no one could hear me, I just yelled out to the woods. I'm talking. And then I came back.

[B]

A little act of rebellion. Nice.

[A]

But I made it, and it felt really good. And, yeah, I have been getting back into my meditation practice since the retreat, so I'm very grateful for it. It was fun.

[B]

It's all just part of my grand plan to make you part of my cult.

[A]

Done. I'm in. Yeah. What are the do's? Do we get uniforms? I'm ready. So I had this idea for us. I've been wanting to figure out a way to get you on this show because I'm such a fan, and I think the work that you do and the words that you speak help people who hear them. And I was like, all right, he's into mindfulness. My whole bread and butter with this show is entertainment. Books and TV and movies and music and the things that we like to entertain us. And I was like, what if we could find some way to talk about both of those things? And it reminded me of a conceit that I have used in previous podcast episodes before. I like to have people share with me what I call modern scriptures. And these are things in the culture, books or movies or TV or whatever, music, whatever, that you return to often or frequently, and they ground you in some way or make you happy or give you a good cry or whatever. This whole thing began for me when I read in 2018, a New York Times profile of Melissa McCarthy. It was written by Taffy Broadeser Achner. And I read it, and by the end of it, I was in tears. It was really crazy. And then I noticed every few months when I was having a bad day, I would go back and read this article and feel better. The entire premise of the piece is that Melissa McCarthy is a comedian and an artist that lives above the fray of daily life, of modern life, of the news of headlines. And she centers and grounds herself so much in her comedic work and her work of emotion that it helps her to literally fly above It. And the scene at the open and close of the piece is Melissa McCarthy at one of those fake skydiving gyms where the air blows you up. And the metaphor is that she floats above it all. You know, it's really sweet, really beautiful, but it reminds me, whenever I read it, to preserve whatever special place in our hearts that resides for art and for creativity and for things that bring us purpose and meaning and that we have to have things that we love, that we hold onto, that no one else can take from us. So when I noticed that I would always revisit that article, that profile, I said, what are some other things that I go back to in the culture that bring me joy? And then I began to ask friends, and it became a thing that I would talk about in podcasts. And so I was hoping to have you, Dan, share some modern scriptures of your own with us this episode. Talk about why you like them, what they mean to you. And maybe in the midst of all that, we will give some folks some good recommendations of things that could make them a little bit happier, too. Maybe even 10% happier. Who's to say?

[B]

I love that conceit. And just to say, I don't have the data right here with me, but in. In the 10 years of hosting my podcast and interviewing tons and tons of researchers, I've had a lot of people come into my world who've made the case that. That access to beauty, yes, to aesthetic experiences, it's a key part of human flourishing. And the other case that I've heard made is that you can use art, specifically. Music is powerful in this way to shift your mood, the way you were doing with that, with Taffy's piece on Melissa McCarthy. So there's a lot here from my perspect.

[A]

I love it. I love it. Well, with that, let's get into your modern scriptures and I'll share a few of my own. You sent us the list. I'm gonna just select from this list and have you start by talking to us about Ferris Bueller's Day Off. This is a film that you said that you return to and it brings you joy. Talk about it.

[B]

Yeah, so I saw it when it came out. I'm showing my age here, but I was not quite a grown ass man, but like, you know, close enough when that came out. I was a teenager and loved it in. In real time. I don't think I saw it again until I had a child. I have a son who's 11 and we have watched this movie probably five or six times. Together, so he loves it so much. Alexander does that he recently had a birthday just a couple weeks ago, and we went to one of those movie theaters where you can. Where they deliver you a meal while you're in the movie theater, and you can recline in the seats. And he. You could pick the movie. And so he and his friends watched Ferris Bueller and the kids are all right.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

The kids are all right. Yes, yes. A lot of the kids hadn't seen it, but everybody loved it. And I thought I would. This is so embarrassing, but I kind of thought, like, I've seen this movie enough. I'm probably gonna work. And I'll go and go out in the hallway and work while we're watching this movie. But I didn't because of. For that exact reason is my child's birthday, you know, for the fifth time in probably two years. It is a perfect movie. It is so tight. And every beat in the movie is perfect there. And not just from a writing standpoint and from the standpoint of narrative propulsion. It is a flawless, frothy, but flawless work of art. And I'll say, notwithstanding its froth, I mean, it is light. It has an incredible message. You. Do you remember? Ferris's tagline is, I said it before

[A]

and I'll say it again, Life moves pretty fast. You don't stop and look around once in a while. You could miss it.

[B]

It's a very Buddhist sentiment.

[A]

I love this.

[B]

Very Buddhist.

[A]

Ferris Bueller's Day off is Buddhist. I love this. I like how. Cause I watched it a lot in my youth because TBS would play it all the time, all the time. And I would watch it whenever it came on. And I remember that scene towards the end where the really, really expensive vintage car just, like, crashes out of its garage and is, like, destroyed. And in that moment, you, like, take a beat, and then I think the character's involved and kind of just like, okay, the car is gone now. The car is gone now, and move on. And I don't know, I fixate on that part of it a lot when I watch that movie. And it's like this reminder. It's like it's never really about the car. A car is a car. Like, there are these things that we fixate on and hold onto. I guess when you look at it and when these things break and when these things fall apart, you're still okay. Your dad's not gonna physically kill you. The car's gone. It's fine. I don't know. That scene, for me, sticks out the

[B]

Most well, also Buddhist. You know, one of the central tenets, as you know, having sat through a non trivial amount of silence with me and a bunch of Buddhist teachers, you know, one of the, one of the things you see if you stop and look at your mind is that things are changing all the time. And this is not my analogy, but you know, one of the most reliable ways to suffer is to cling too tightly in a world of unremitting, non negotiable change. And if you cling too tightly, this is the analogy, you will get rope burn. And so what we see when that fancy car goes flying out of the glass enclosed garage in which it's been kept at like a museum piece, what you see is, okay, well this is the truth and we have to deal with what is now reality.

[A]

Thank you. Ferris Bueller. Yeah, I love it. I have a pick for a modern scripture and I was thinking about Ferris Bueller and that made me think of another movie that I recently saw that as soon as I saw it I said, I'm going to be watching this at least once a year for the next several years. There is this new musical, not quite biopic, that is in theaters now, had a big marketing push around Christmas. Stars Hugh Jackman and Kate Hudson. It is a musical called Song Sung Blue. So in this film, the two of them play average Joes who have made a Neil diamond tribute band that gets pretty big. Look at that. It's like shimmering, you know, you know,

[B]

my hair guy does clothes too.

[A]

Awesome. You know, Neil is special and I just want everyone to get that feeling I get when I listen to America and Forever Blue Jeans.

[B]

Sweet Caroline.

[A]

Sweet Caroline. Yeah, but I'm never gonna be the real McCoy. I mean, I don't really look like Neil. I don't even really sound like Neil. I gotta be Neil, but I've just gotta be me too.

[B]

Yeah, you don't want to be a Neil diamond impersonator. You want to be a Neil diamond interpreter.

[A]

I was looking for the right way to say it and you just came right out. The commercials for it are laughable. It looks like a farce. You're like, this can't be real. Who cooked up this idea? Fire all the executives. It looks so cheesy, so cheesy. But something about it draws you in and then you watch it and you realize, one, Kate Hudson deserves an Oscar and two, you are a Neil diamond fan even if you don't even know it. But what I love about this movie and why I want to keep returning to it Is that it is a film that, as a friend told me feels like a movie should feel. At every step it hits the beats that a melodrama of that sort should. At the moment you're supposed to laugh, you laugh. When it's time to cry, you cry. And at the end they put a nice bow on it and you're like, yes. It feels fulfilling. I watched it once, cried like a baby. And then over the course of New Year's hanging with friends, I said, I have a great plan for us tonight. We're gonna watch this movie and cry like a baby together. And I just love it so. And it's one of those movies that you put on when you don't even know that you need a good cry and you get one. And it's this reminder that, like, sometimes the well that I want to return to is a reliable well. I want to play the song that takes me there. I want to watch the film that gets me there. I want to like tap into those things that I know are going to give me this emotional catharsis that will feel good. And my newest of that ilk is Song Song Blue. It's a really good movie.

[B]

Okay. I'm convinced I'm gonna see it.

[A]

But the trailers are crazy.

[B]

Well, so I had seen trailers and had that reaction. I thought, this looks ridiculous. But Kate Hudson, I think is an under heralded actor. Yeah. Can she really? My son and I have been watching the Knives out movies and she's really good in the second one.

[A]

Good. She's very good. Fun fact. She has a band outside of her film work. She just, she sings around la. I kind of want to become her groupie now. I'm really obsessed. It's. She's really good. And there's this scene where she has this really like tight to the camera monologue in this delectable Midwestern accent. And you just watch her do it and you're like, I'll give her the Oscar right now. Right now. Yeah, yeah.

[B]

So you. But I don't want to gloss over something you said there. For you, there's a well that you want to return to frequently of. Give me a good cry. Give me some catharsis.

[A]

Oh, yeah. You know, I mean, there's certain things where you go to them and you know that they'll like, release the pressure valve. This movie will give me a good cry. This song will give me a good. Ugh. This film will make me laugh. This TV show, like, I can always like go back to the Fresh Prince of Bel Air. And have a good belly laugh and just relax. Or like the film Rat Race, which is not a great movie, but it's a terribly bad, bad movie. It's got Whoopi Goldberg and Mr. Bean, and it's a caper film with a bunch of poop jokes. And it's stupid, but I watch it. And whenever I watch it, like, the rest of the world's problems just kind of roll away. I think with Songsung Blue, it's like, I want art sometimes that will reliably take me out of whatever place I'm in. And usually it's either a good laugh or a good cry. Songsung Blue gives you both. They didn't pay me to say this, but, yeah, you know, there's. There's some. Sometimes art can be transcendent, and I like that.

[B]

I agree. I don't know. And I say this as a kind of self criticism. I don't know that I'm ever looking for a cry.

[A]

Although I love a good one in traffic. Yeah, I think, oh, that's the best.

[B]

I see this as. As a sign of your being more evolved than I am. And. And it may be, you know, whatever version of just being fundamentally broken. No, I don't. I don't hear that as fundamentally broken at all. But I will say that I was about to kind of criticize myself for not being somebody who cries that frequently. But as I've gotten older and, you know, probably under the influence of a lot of, you know, meditation practice, the Tik Tock Algorithm has learned that I like to watch an emotional reunion. And I will cry at those.

[A]

Like a pet owner reunion or a people reunion.

[B]

Pet. Owner. Soldier and his or her family. Soldier. Pet. Yes. Man. F. Best friends who haven't seen each other in a long time. And the spouse arranges a reunion. Parents, especially when a parent sees a child, there's. When a parent sees a child they haven't seen in a long time. Those videos kill me. I've watched the same videos over and over and over, and they get me every time.

[A]

I love it. All right, time for a break. When we come back, more modern pop culture scriptures with Dan Harris, host of the podcast 10% happier. Stick around. I want you to talk a little more about another pic that you sent to us, Fleetwood Mac. You picked two albums from Fleetwood Mac that you return to, and they make you feel good. Rumors. Of course, we all agree, but you also chose. And I'm with you on this, their much maligned follow up. Tusk.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Are you a Tusk? Defender it was.

[B]

I'm a definitely a Tusk defender. I mean, it was maligned the way the Beatles White Album was maligned in the time as being overly maybe self indulgent. Too many songs. It could have been one record instead of a double record. And sure, yeah, there are some songs on. On. On that record that I don't love, but there are some incredible songs on there. And now I'm really. What I'm about to say is going to expose the fallacy of the story I'm telling myself about not being sufficiently emotional because for me, Fleetwood Mac makes me quite emotional because I was raised with those records. And it. So it brings me back to when my parents were healthy.

[A]

Oh, that's beautiful. Would they dance with it at home and vibe to it on a Saturday morning?

[B]

I don't remember my parents dancing much. I danced to it, yeah. But my parent. My parents were recovering hippies. Well, full on hippies, really. I mean, if you ask my mom, you know, everybody of that generated the boomers, you know, where were you when a man landed on the moon? My mom's answer, which is a legit answer, was I was at a Black Panther rally.

[A]

And.

[B]

And for the avoidance of doubt, my. My mom is. Is not black. So she. She was really. She was very polit. Both my parents were very politically attuned in the late 60s. My dad got drafted and managed to be able to serve in D.C. instead of having to go to Vietnam. And. And all of the music of that time we were raised with. Now Fleetwood Mac comes in the mid-70s, but they were still kind of in that mode, even though at that time they were no longer kids, but I was a kid. And so those, like the opening sounds, the opening chords, I guess is the right term of the first song on Rumors.

[A]

I think it's secondhand news.

[B]

Secondhand news. Rest.

[A]

I know,

[B]

I know. It just always gives me the full body kind of tingle and the. It brings me back to. Yeah. Being a kid and my, you know, my parents. You've gone through some of this yourself. My. My parents are still alive, but they're in a very different condition than they were when I was a kid. And they were kind of my alpha and omega. I really looked up to them. And now I'm more of the parent. And so that's been dizzying. Head spinning for me. So the music is poignant in that way.

[A]

Yes, well. And I love Fleetwood Mac for so many reasons, but I think that they speak to. And actually I did a whole episode about their song Dreams for This music podcast, one song. And my biggest takeaway with Dreams is that, like, they are a band that managed to work together in spite of all of their fighting and still make good art. So Dreams was Stevie Nicks's answer to Lindsey Buckingham's you Can Go youo Own Way. They're both two different songs about the same breakup. And imagine two lovers who have broken up that are in a band making songs about the breakup on their own and then saying, as a band, we'll do them together. That's what they did. And in the Making of Dreams, Lindsay really kind of helped Stevie fix the song. It wasn't ready when she brought it to them, and he helped, and then they sung it together and made it art. I find that so inspiring. There are other parts of them that I hear expressed emotionally. Like on Tusk, if you listen to the song what Makes yous Think youk're the One, I love it. Lindsey Buckingham is hitting that snare with the rage of all the ancestors, and they're like, oh, they are working through a breakup on wax, and they're still gonna work together.

[B]

What makes you think I'm the one who'll be there where you're calling? What makes you think I'm the one

[A]

who will put you in your party? I just find that a really, really great North Star for creativity. If we can work together and be creative together, even in spite of all of these things, maybe it can still be good art. Like, they stuck through it. That's wild to me, I think.

[B]

I think Lindsey Buckingham might have also been pissed about her. About Stevie's solo career taking off in ways that were eclipsing his and the band.

[A]

Mm. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. And, like, you just hear rage in there, and they make it art. And you hear sadness in there, and they make it art. And it's like, I don't know. Whenever we talk about Fleetwood Mac, we talk about all the breakups. All the breakups, all the breakups. And I'm like, oh, the story of Fleetwood Mac is that they stuck together through the breakups. They kept making stuff that is remarkable to me, and yet Tusk is so underrated. I love Tusk.

[B]

Another thing about Tusk is that Lindsey Buckingham, at that time. And this was true for Paul McCartney, who at that time was a solo while he was in Wings, but also making in the early. I like Wings a lot.

[A]

Justice for Wings.

[B]

I've been thinking a lot about Wings because my wife, for Christmas, gave me a book that came out in November, which is kind of an Oral history of Wings. So I've been reading it and listening to a lot of their records. And. But Paul McCartney in his wings work in the late 80s, and then a little bit in the early. Sorry, in the late 70s, and then a little bit in the early 80s when he was solo. Both he and Lindsay Buckingham were influenced at that time by punk music. And. And now their. Their music clearly is not punk. But if you listen to Tusk and if you listen to some of the songs that Wings made on their last two records, they're. They're channeling little bits of that spirit of. Of punk.

[A]

Wow. I love that. I love that. Yeah. Justice for Tusk. Justice for Wings. So my next pick is a music pick as well. I am of the controversial opinion that Aretha Franklin's best work was her gospel work. And there is an incredible live album she did in Watts way back in the day called Amazing Grace. She recorded this album at a church with a choir, with a live audience. And there's a video documentary where you can watch the whole thing. Her father, a minister, introduces her, and her organist and choir director for the entire album is the gospel legend, James Cleveland. The entire thing is one of the most captivating performances you'll ever see in your life.

[B]

Amazing. Amazing. Gre.

[A]

The entire thing is one of the most captivating performances you'll ever see in your life. And there are these just little sprinkles that make it even more special. So they kind of just had a regular church service and recorded it. It was like a choir concert that they recorded. And people could just come and show up. And as they pan through the audience, you see these wonderfully beautifully dressed black people. But then they get way to the back and the. The camera goes long and it goes to the back of the church. And there's this white guy sitting there just bobbing his head. And you're like, who is it? How did he get there? And they zoom in closer. Guess who it is. It's Mick Jagger. Mick Jagger is there soaking it all up because he knows there's no greater standard bearer for good music than Aretha Franklin. And it's funny, all through his career, all through the Rolling Stones career, you can hear the ways in which they are directly influenced by black music, by gospel music. To see him in that room during this recording is really kind of beautiful. Another fun fact for me, watching this thing, this is one of the best reviewed gospel albums of all time. And the open secret of the album and of the music itself is that James Cleveland, the choir director, and organist. He was very, very gay. Very, very gay. Had a lot of male lovers in the church. But as someone who grew up queer in the church, I was always wondering, is there a space for me in this place? Is there space for me? And in adulthood, I finally watched the doc of this Aretha album and saw James Cleveland right there playing the organ the whole time. And it's like, oh, yeah, there's always been space for us. Thankfully, you know, I'm allowed to live a more open life than he was allowed to live back then. But it's a wonderful reminder that, you know, queer people have been everywhere all the time and always will be. It's also just. It is Aretha at her peak. You can even watch this thing on mute, Dan. It's so gorgeous. Yeah, Aretha Franklin, Amazing Grace, the album and the live documentary always works for all ages, all people, all the time.

[B]

I feel like that's a great thing for me to watch with my son. I'm curious, are you still an active churchgoer?

[A]

Not really. I go here and there. I go when there's a funeral. I think about church a lot. I've thought about going to some more frequently, but I think I kind of just like live in church in my head. And so when I want to go back to those feelings, into those sounds, one of the things that I'll play is Aretha Franklin's album Amazing Grace. I tell people, and as someone who grew up playing the saxophone in the church band with most churches, the better the music, the more harmful the doctrine. And so when I've thought about going back to church, I want one that's welcoming, opening and affirming. And then you end up with these really well intentioned Unitarians who can barely play the acoustic guitar. And I need a little. I need the good stuff. So anyone listening, if you can offer up a church that is wonderful and welcome and opening, but has really good gospel music too, let me know and I'll go. Let me know. All right, time for a break. When we come back, more modern pop culture scriptures with Dan Harris, host of the podcast 10% happier. Stick around. I want to highlight another pic that you sent us for a piece of pop culture Dan Harris that helps you feel good and that you can go back to a lot. You recommended Parks and Rec. I like that one too. Tell me why you like it.

[B]

Kind of got me through the pandemic, actually. You know, it's a show. Well, let me just say I. I then rewatched it maybe twice with my son.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

Who loves sitcoms. Yeah. So we've, we've rewatched that and 30 Rock and Brooklyn nine. Nine.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But Parks and Rec is our favorite. And. And to me, it's really a show about love. You know, if you, if you watch the Office, for example, it's. It's quite mean. Brilliant.

[A]

They all hate each other. And I love it.

[B]

Yeah, they all hate each other. But Parks and Rec, really, it's not. It is about friendship and romantic love and romantic friendship. And you feel the warmth alongside the humor. The humor is not overly cutting.

[A]

I agree. And it has something that I think Abbott elementary has. It has professionals who have chosen vocations that will never make them rich. But they chose it because they believe in the mission. Leslie Knope actually believes in the power of local government. The teachers in Abbott elementary believe in the power of public education. It is really nice to see that on screen. I've talked at length with other thinkers about culture and entertainment. A lot of TV that we watch now, everyone's rich. And so it's refreshing when you see people who are solidly middle class or working class who have chosen a vocation because they want to help people. And I feel that in Parks and Rec all the time. And I like that. I like it a lot.

[B]

That's a great insight. Yes. So it's not only about the love among the characters on screen, it's about their collective love of the community.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, totally, totally, totally. I'm gonna offer one off of that. Just cause I want folks to watch this show. It deserves more love. Speaking of people on screen following a vocation because they believe in it, I have to recommend as a modern scripture, this HBO show that did not get enough love when it was on went on for three seasons. I think it was an adaptation of a British show. It's called Getting On. Have you ever watched this show? No. It's very good. It's got Alex Boorstein, Niecy Nash and Laurie Metcalfe playing nurses in a geriatric unit. And it's equal parts drama and comedy. But half the show you're just watching these really well intentioned nurses deal with calamity every day and kind of just like live, laugh, love through it. Um, you've never seen Niecy Nash at a more understated and sublime performance. And you've never laughed harder watching Alex Borstein be this nurse who really means well, but it's kind of a mess. It is such a good show. And it's another one of those reminders that, like, you know, people don't go into things like nursing to get rich and famous. They go into it because they believe in it. And so watching people believe in something and pursue it in spite of the crazy of it is really great. And they're just like. I mean, they're all three of them. Laurie Metcalf and Niecy Nash and Alex Borstein at the top of their game. Just iconic performances. Everyone should know this show. Everyone should know this show.

[B]

I'm legit taking notes as I'm listening to you. I'm gonna watch all of these. Can I watch getting on with my son? Is it appropriate for an 11 year old?

[A]

You think a lot of the show deals with aging and death, often in a funny way, but you're watching these nurses deal with people who are, like, slowly dying. So it might welcome those kind of conversations if you're open to having them with your kid. I also think there's profanity, like they cuss on that show. It's definitely hbo.

[B]

No, profanity is not a problem in this house. I try to minimize the sex, drugs, and violence with him, but the. The death part is. And the medical stuff, I'm actually. I think that can be just for my son. Every kid's different. I used to take him with me. I used to be a hospice volunteer, and I would take him with me.

[A]

I didn't know that.

[B]

What? Yeah, so. In fact. So there was this one patient that I was very close with who's no longer with us, but this guy got brought to the hospice, told he had three days to live, and he lived there for six years.

[A]

Oh, he's the mayor of the hospice at that point. Oh, my.

[B]

So Ronnie was the mayor of the hospice, and I was very close with Ronnie, and Alexander used to come with me and hang out with Ronnie. And then Ronnie had a goddaughter who was a year older than Alexander, and they would have play dates running around hospice. So I don't have any problems showing him.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

This sounds like a show he could watch.

[A]

It's. Yeah, it's a really good show. I'm very curious. You are talking a lot in this episode with me about watching TV and movies with your son. I'm betting there are a bunch of listeners who would love to know any insights you've gained by watching stuff with your kid and thinking about it and thinking about how he consumes it. I remember watching stuff with my mom when I was a kid or my dad. With my dad, he was gonna fall asleep and and my mom was just gonna, like, watch to make sure that we weren't seeing sex.

[B]

So.

[A]

Cover your eyes. Cover your eyes. Cover your eyes. It seems as if. Or it sounds like you have an interesting relationship with your kid around watching stuff together. What does it look and feel like for y'?

[B]

All?

[A]

I'm very curious.

[B]

I mean, I definitely try to be a little vigilant for. On the sex stuff. The drugs part can lead to good conversations, actually. We have done very well with sitcoms, So I mentioned 30 Rock, and we watch the Office and Brooklyn Nine Nine. And he loves Abbott elementary, so we've had a good luck with that. He loves series of movies, so we watched the now you see me series. We watched the oceans, Ocean's eleven series. We watched Knives Out. We just started Avatar last night.

[A]

Godspeed.

[B]

So we. Yeah, that's gonna be. We only gone through the first one. It's a tough slog. I suspect we have a tough slog ahead of us.

[A]

My fun fact about Avatar is that I've fallen asleep at every viewing. I've not made it through a full Avatar in my lifetime. And I've tried to watch them all. God bless those blue people. But I.

[B]

We'll see if I. But that. Actually, you know, Avatar, the first one, which we watched last night, was a good. He was worried about some of the blue people, the Na'. Vi, I think they have battle cries that he was worried it was cultural appropriation or racist for them to do, which then led to a whole conversation about. This is an analogy for indigenous people all over the world. So you never know. Like, in any show, an opportunity can arise organically. My son hates to be lectured to or taught anything by me, and. But if it comes up in the course of a. Of a piece of pop culture, then he is open to it for about 15 seconds.

[A]

All right. That's something. Yeah. Yeah. I find with kids, it's like, because I have kids in my life, a lot of times the conversation that needs to be had will happen in a better way if they think the conversation was their idea. So, like, if you can wait for them to raise the question first before you say, let's talk about this, it'll go better.

[B]

100%.

[A]

I am very relieved to know that the kids are concerned with questions of appropriation. The kids are all right. As I said earlier, the kids are all right. I love it.

[B]

Well, what's interesting about this generation, my son's generation, which is Gen Alpha, there's a bit of reaction to the perceived political correctness of Gen Z and millennials. But that doesn't mean they're insensitive to this stuff. They just. They want to have the conversations with a little less stridency.

[A]

Yeah. Less absolutism. I think I'm assuming that they have rejected, quote, unquote, cancel culture, which was never as dominant as we thought it was. But, yeah, I think what I'm hearing is that, you know, the young folks are just kind of like, well, we can talk it out. Could be good.

[B]

Yes, yes. It's like they want all of the respect and inclusion from my senses based on my son and his friends. They want the respect and the inclusion, and they want it to be okay for boys to cry and have therapists and all of that. They. I think they don't want as much of the soapbox as they perceive their elders to have.

[A]

I agree. I agree. Also, no one should stand on a soapbox. They're not meant for standing. Think about it. It's a soapbox. It's not for people to stand on. But I do want to ask you kind of an unrelated question to close our conversation. I was talking with a friend over the break, and they're like, what's up in your new year? Do you have any interviews that you're looking forward to? And I was like, yeah, my first interview of the new year is gonna be with Dan Harris. I admire him so much. I think he's great. It's gonna be a. My friend who knows your work said, oh, that's great. You're gonna do a New Year's resolution episode with Dan Harris. And I said, ah, no, no, no, no, no, no, I'm not gonna do that. Cause I've kind of given up on New Year's resolutions writ large. But I'm wondering, Dan Harris, someone who thinks a lot about spirituality and mindfulness and being a centered and whole human being. We are in January this season of New Year's resolutions. A lot of folks are at the gym or trying to not drink alcohol, whatever. Do you have some central grounding principle around New Year's resolutions and the New Year's Resolution industrial complex? As I've come

[B]

historically, I've not been a big resolutions person. That being said, there is quite a bit of research to suggest that there's real power in what's known as the fresh start effect. So birthdays, even Mondays, or the start of a new month, but definitely the start of a new year, can give people fuel to make change. It is also true, nonetheless, that by February, the vast majority of us will have bailed on our resolutions. And so that raises the question, like, what can you do to make these things actually stick? And there's, there are a few little guidelines. One is to have very specific resolutions. So instead of I'm going to get fit, I'm gonna go to the gym three times a week, it's much better. Another is to start very, very small, sometimes absurdly small. There's a lot of evidence to show that. So for example, if your, your goal is to exercise or to run, starting by simply putting your sneakers by the door can be very powerful. If, if, if meditation is on your list, I often tell people start with one minute. One minute really counts. Two other things to recommend in terms of helping you do this. Doing it with other people can be incredibly powerful. A lot of evidence there that so called social support helps people get over the hump because other people give you enthusiasm and accountability. And then finally, and I think this is probably the most important, I think of what I'm about to tell you about as a, as kind of the Uber or, or upstream habit out of which all other habits can sustainably flow. And it's self compassion, it's the ability to speak to yourself the way you would talk to a good friend. And the research is, is very clear that if you can just learn to talk to yourself in a kinder way, you're more likely to reach your goals, whether it's resolutions or, or whatever it is you're trying to do. I will finally just say that I'm not. Even though I'm not a huge resolution person. I'm thinking about deleting Instagram.

[A]

Don't you kind of have to do that?

[B]

Well, I.

[A]

Someone do that for you?

[B]

Well, so that's been my story. I kind of have to do that. I need to, you know, I'm a, I'm a creator or influencer or whatever the hell I am. And so I need to have a presence on social media.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But I do have people on my team who are doing most of the work. And I have just noticed that the most reliable way to make myself unhappy is to open Instagram. And I'm not trying to run down Instagram in particular, but for me it's just, it's so.

[A]

I get it.

[B]

Ruthlessly effective at making me unhappy.

[A]

Same.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I think it's because it like it, it immediately invites comparison.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

You're comparing yourself to your friends and their stories. You're comparing yourself to the randos who come up on your for you page and your scroll and I'LL find sometimes, because my algorithm now gives me people who are making music and making art and making comedy. If I watch Instagram for 45 minutes or half an hour or 15 minutes, I'm convinced that everyone else who has a smartphone is making their own original music and music videos and building their own furniture and cooking all their own food. Like, it makes me feel grossly inadequate. And I have to remind myself, no, like, everyone's performing for that app and you should just put it down. But yeah, comparison immediately arises as soon as I open up Instagram. Immediately.

[B]

So would you consider deleting it?

[A]

No, not yet. Not until I. I need to. Okay, listen, kcrw, if you're gonna pay somebody to do my social, awkward Instagram. But until then, I gotta make some of this stuff myself. Someone else cuts the videos, I'll say that. But yeah, the updates and stuff come from me. But one day. One day I would love to. And I've been trying to just build in activities in my day where a phone isn't involved. So two things I've done recently that have been really helpful. I put my phone in the trunk whenever I'm driving.

[B]

That's awesome.

[A]

So before I start the car, the phone is not with me. It's with me, but, like, in the back of the car. So I'm not on Instagram at a red light or I'm not stuck in traffic scrolling. It's separate. And that makes driving now a lot more meditative for me, which is great. And then safer and safer. That's true. Yeah. Yeah. And then two, I. I try to build in other activities where the phone is just not there. So every time I walk the dog, the phone's at home. When I walk the dog, it's me and Wesley Snipes, the pit bull. And that's it. So that's been helpful. Yeah.

[B]

I love pit bulls. Pit bulls are awesome.

[A]

One or two or three. They're the best. They're the best.

[B]

I have two close friends of mine, each have a pit bull. Beautiful, amazing dog.

[A]

Yeah, they're the sweetest. Yes, yes. And then my last thought on resolutions. You know, I was thinking about this practice of modern scripture that I've been doing now for years. And I was thinking about it a lot in the context of the new year. And I had to, like, tell myself that a lot of what I do when I talk with folks about their ideas of modern scriptures, I'm doing something that has become, for me, an everyday resolution that we have to remind ourselves is a resolution. The act of returning to things that bring us joy, to things that bring us solace, and to things that bring us peace is a really big and powerful thing. And finding those things and giving ourselves permission to return to them as needed can be revolutionary. And so I have to remind myself at the start of a new year, when everyone is resolving to become a new person or to do new things or to go into different directions, sometimes the act of return can be just as fulfilling. We already have things in our life that bring us joy, that bring us solace, that bring us peace. We already have people in our lives that help us and nurture us and love us. Returning to them and to those ideas and to those scriptures or whatever they are just doing that. It might not feel revolutionary, but it is edifying. And I have to remind myself, just, just return is enough.

[B]

Sometimes it is literally revolutionary because you are turning in place to remember and look back at a thing you know is good for you. And so, and that's the theme of this conceit, that, that is the conceit that you've come up with for this episode, which I love. And it's brilliant. I appreciate you.

[A]

I love it. Listen, we have resolved to return. Thank you for this chat. Dan Harris.

[B]

My pleasure. Thank you for inviting me to do it at any chance to hang out with you. I will take it.

[A]

Likewise. Likewise, listeners, thank you so much for listening today. If you like what you've heard, tell your friends about us in real life. Help us spread the good word of this show. Also, if you want, leave us a review on your favorite podcast app and subscribe to this show there as well. This show is a co production between Sam Sanders Productions and kcrw. We are distributed nationally by prx. Our showrunner is Tyler Greene. Our senior producer is Bennett Purser. Andrea Bautista is our producer and social media editor Phil Richards is our technical director. Bo Delmore is our video lead, Luis Pena is our switcher and video editor Ramel Akantura is our graphic designer. Alicia Ba itup composed our theme music and together Arnie Seiple and I executive produce this show. If you like what you've heard today, you can find more of my interviews on your favorite podcast app on YouTube for the visuals and [e-mail] SamSanders all right y', all, till next time, be good to yourselves.