Telling Harsh Stories to Yourself About Yourself? How To Rewrite the Narrative. | Allison Sweet Grant

Summary

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10% Happier with Dan Harris:

"Telling Harsh Stories to Yourself About Yourself? How To Rewrite the Narrative"

Guest: Allison Sweet Grant | Date: October 17, 2025

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EPISODE OVERVIEW

This episode explores how the stories we tell ourselves—often based in shame, trauma, or self-doubt—shape our lives and relationships. Dan Harris speaks with Allison Sweet Grant, a psychiatric nurse practitioner turned author, about her novel "I Am the Cage," inspired by her own difficult childhood medical trauma. Through candid conversation, Grant discusses the emotional aftermath of her experiences, the metaphor of the internal ‘junk drawer’ where we stash painful memories, and the power of writing and self-reflection in transforming and reclaiming one’s narrative. The discussion flows from practical tools for self-acceptance to the nuanced dance of gratitude and grief, cathartic connection, meditation, and the enduring challenge of imposter syndrome.

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KEY DISCUSSION POINTS & INSIGHTS

1. The Roots and Impact of Childhood Trauma

• Medical Trauma: At age 11, Allison underwent a grueling two-year bone-lengthening procedure, which involved painful surgeries and wearing a “birdcage”-like fixator on her leg.
  • "It started when I was 11 years old. The entire procedure took approximately two years." (06:22)
• Psychological & Social Isolation: The experience was profoundly isolating, compounded by a lack of child-focused care, minimal communication from adults, and time away from school.
  • "I was home in a hospital bed pretty much by myself... it was both physically and psychologically lonely." (10:58)
• Societal/Authority Shortcomings: Medical professionals talked about Allison without involving her. No trauma-informed practice existed; support resources were absent.
  • "I was sitting in the room and people were talking about me, but they weren't talking to me... I never spoke with a social worker. I never went to a support group." (09:22)

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2. The ‘Junk Drawer’ Metaphor for Emotional Baggage

• Definition: The 'junk drawer' represents all the negative self-beliefs, doubts, and emotional pain stored inside us.
  • "It's just a place inside of me where I kept all of the negative things that I thought about myself, all of the negative things that other people... gave to me." (12:51)
• Universality: Dan suggests everyone has a metaphorical "junk drawer" or "black bag" of baggage.
  • "I would venture to argue there's nobody without a junk drawer..." (13:39)
• The Healing Process: Writing opened Allison’s junk drawer; laying out her memories allowed for understanding and self-compassion.
  • "Once I started opening it up and going through it, looking at all these memories... I was able to process them a lot easier." (14:24)

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3. Writing as a Tool for Self-Acceptance & Narrative Rewriting

• Clarity & Catharsis: Writing enabled Allison to clearly express feelings she suppressed, fostering healing.
  • "Putting it down in a book, putting it down in words, I was able to say exactly what I wanted to say and examine things in ways that I had never been able to before." (16:33)
• Agency Over Your Story: Fictionalizing gave her the power to reshape events, explore alternative outcomes, and regain agency.
  • "I could give a different ending to this character than the one that I got... There's just so much freedom there." (37:34)
• Advice for Others: One doesn’t need to write a novel—reframing can begin with honest conversations, therapy, or creativity.
  • "We just don't have to be stuck with the ancient story we're telling to ourselves and to the world about ourselves." (36:35)

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4. Upward Spirals: The Interplay of Inner & Outer Worlds

• Emotional Patterns: Dan describes the “toilet vortex”—a downward spiral of self-criticism harming relationships, and the upward spiral, where self-compassion and honesty foster healthier connections and happiness.
  • "Your inner weather improves and then your relationships improve and then you get happier because... relationships are probably the most important variable in human flourishing." (20:13)
• Transformation: Allison notes how her relationships improved as her self-understanding deepened.
  • "I think I'm a better person having written it. I think I'm a better wife... a better mother." (21:19)

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5. Meditation, Self-Improvement, & Accepting ‘Imperfection’

• Meditation Myths: The idea that successful meditation means "clearing the mind" is unhelpful. The real practice is repeatedly returning to focus after distraction.
  • "You try to focus on one thing, you get distracted, you start again. That's it." (29:39)
• On Being ‘Bad’ at Meditation: The guest’s struggle with meditation is reframed—her practice is valid even if focus wavers.
  • "I think you may have a story that you're a bad meditator, but actually what you're describing is good meditation." (29:16)
• Perfection Is Not the Goal: Both agree that striving for perfection—whether in meditation, healing, or storytelling—is not constructive.
  • “‘If we create perfection as a goal... nobody’s going to get there, so it’s not constructive.’” (Dan quoting Sam Harris, 24:09)

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6. Loneliness, Cathartic Normalization, and Connection

• The Power of Disclosure: Sharing one’s “junk” with others, whether through books or conversation, provides catharsis both for the teller and the listener.
  • "It's amazing when you can do that with... a book sitting in front of you that somebody wrote in a totally different time, in a totally different place." (41:55)
• Cathartic Normalization: Naming and honestly depicting one's pain gives others permission to be open with their own.
  • "When an author or anybody can talk about stuff they've gone through... the beholder... can feel a kind of catharsis and liberation..." (41:06)
• Advice for Healing: It’s okay to hold both grief and gratitude at once. Rewriting your story begins with facing both.
  • "It's okay to be grateful and grieving at the same time." (35:01)

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7. Imposter Syndrome & Creativity

• Widespread Yet Unspoken: Allison, Dan, and their partners all grapple with imposter syndrome, especially under public scrutiny.
  • "I have that, too... Don't we all?" (49:19)
• Gendered Dynamics: Dan observes that women often identify closely with imposter syndrome, while some men seem oblivious.
  • "Basically 100% of the women say, I want to read that book because I need it. I have it. And 75% of the men give a blank bovine stare..." (49:24)

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NOTABLE QUOTES & MEMORABLE MOMENTS

• On Trauma and Isolation:
  • "I was just sort of expected to handle it on my own, and I had trouble handling it on my own."
    (Allison, 09:22)
• On the ‘Junk Drawer’:
  • “It was just a place inside of me where I kept all of the negative things that I thought about myself, all of the negative things that other people, whether intentionally or unintentionally, gave to me.”
    (Allison, 12:51)
• On Writing for Healing:
  • “Putting it down in a book... I was able to say exactly what I wanted to say and examine things in ways that I had never been able to before.”
    (Allison, 16:33)
• On Accepting Imperfection:
  • “‘If we create perfection as a goal... nobody’s going to get there, so it’s not constructive.’”
    (Dan, 24:09)
• On the Art of Honesty:
  • “If you're at a juncture and writing is all about junctures... just revert to what's true, even if it's in fiction, that's what's going to work.”
    (Dan, 43:23)
• On Parallel Relationships:
  • “When you see people deliver a TED Talk or a book or an interview and it's perfect, it's also often like soulless and as if it was created by AI, it's actually the imperfections that make the thing work.”
    (Dan, 46:53)
• On Shared Human Struggles:
  • “I didn't even realize that I had [imposter syndrome] until you're sort of put in the spotlight. Then it's right there for everybody to see.”
    (Allison, 49:56)

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TIMESTAMPED HIGHLIGHTS

• 06:22 – 10:48: Allison recounts in detail her medical trauma and its emotional aftermath.
• 12:51 – 14:54: Introduction and unpacking of the ‘junk drawer’ metaphor.
• 16:33 – 18:58: The process and impact of writing for self-acceptance and re-authoring one’s narrative.
• 20:13 – 21:19: Dan explains the “toilet vortex” and upward spiral of emotional health.
• 24:09 – 29:39: Candid discussion on meditation misconceptions, perfectionism, and practice.
• 35:01 – 37:34: Practical advice on holding gratitude and grief, and ways to reframe one’s own story.
• 41:06 – 42:33: The power of cathartic normalization and its universality across shared stories.
• 44:33 – 45:41: Allison distinguishes fiction from memoir, discussing her narrative choices.
• 49:13 – 49:56: Dan and Allison discuss the pervasiveness and gendered nature of imposter syndrome.

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FINAL TAKEAWAYS

• Everyone carries a 'junk drawer' of pain or self-doubt; just naming and examining it can be the crucial first step to compassion and change.
• Healing doesn’t mean forgetting or erasing pain but can involve creative or honest reframing—a process open to anyone, regardless of whether you write it down.
• Meditation, self-exploration, and even 'imperfect' attempts at healing foster agency, healthier relationships, and increased self-acceptance.
• Imposter syndrome and inner criticism afflict almost everyone—talking about it, even imperfectly, is a key to connection and freedom.

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RECOMMENDATIONS & RESOURCES

• Alison Sweet Grant's Works:
  • I Am the Cage (novel exploring themes of trauma & self-acceptance)
  • Children’s books: The Gift Inside the Box, Weave in the Fall (co-authored with Adam Grant)
  • alisonsweetgrant.com

For more practical strategies, listener interaction, or live guided meditation, see upcoming events at Dan Harris’ site.

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Transcript

[A]

Foreign.

[B]

This is the 10% Happier podcast. I'm Dan Harris. Hello everybody. How we doing? I suspect we all have brutal stories that we tell about ourselves to ourselves. Mine has often been that I'm incredibly selfish, maybe even irredeemably rotten. But for you, the story might be that you're a fraud, an imposter, a failure, unworthy, not smart enough, not outgoing enough, unlovable. Maybe you're haunted by shame or by addiction. I could go on. The menu is vast. Today I'm going to talk to a living example of the possibility of rewriting your narrative. Alison Sweetgrant is a psychiatric nurse practitioner turned author. Her newish novel is called I Am the Cage. It's loosely based on her own childhood experiences, which were quite brutal and which she will describe for you. In this conversation we talk about the impact of your childhood trauma on your adult relationships. The concept of a junk drawer that's a metaphor for all the pain and self doubt and anxiety that you might try to compartmentalize in a junk drawer. We talk about writing as a tool for self acceptance, how to rewrite your own story, and where to start, practical meditation, tools to quiet the mind, the role of cathartic visualization dealing with imposter syndrome, and much more. Just a quick mention before we dive in that our next live meditation and Q and A session will be this Tuesday, October 21st at 4 Eastern. We do these every Tuesday at the same time. Sign [e-mail] and if you want to meditate with me in person. I am co leading a weekend retreat very soon October 24th through 26th at the Omega Institute in Upstate New York. It's going to be me, Sabene Selassie, Jeff Warren and Afosu Jones Corte. It'll be super fun. We do a session Friday night, two sessions on Saturday and then a final one on Sunday morning in between. Lots of free time to hike, play tennis, get a massage, do yoga, whatever. The sessions mix meditation, discussion among the teachers, discussion among the audience members. The idea is really to mix serious meditation practice with socializing and that's why we call it Meditation Party. I'll put a link in the show notes if you want to sign up. Okay, we'll get started with Alison Sweet Grant right after this. I've got a busy fall like I am traveling all the time. I was just looking at my calendar trying to make some time for a friend on a weekend and I realized I did not have a free weekend and until mid November and then after that I have no more free Weekends, I think, until the holiday. So a lot of travel coming up. And one of the things I've been thinking about while traveling, especially when all of us are on the road, meaning my wife, my son and I are all out of the house and on the road together, is that there's a great way to make some extra cash while we're traveling. In other words, to get paid to take a vacation, which is to put our home up on Airbnb to host other people while we're traveling. This is an option you yourself might want to consider. You put so much time into making your home beautiful and comfortable. So when you're not in the home, why not help somebody else feel comfortable and taken care of while they're traveling? If you host your home on Airbnb while you're traveling, it's a great way to offset some of the cost of your trip. Whenever we travel, our place is just empty. So it's really like leaving money on the table not to put it up on Airbnb and see if somebody's interested in staying there. Your home might be worth more than you think. Find out how [e-mail] host. Today's episode is brought to you by Bumble, the Go to dating app to find love. My wife and I met the old fashioned way. We went on a blind date. When we met, there were no dating apps. Actually, there were. There were no apps. That's how old we are. We met back in 2006. Pre iPhone, anyway. Now if you're in the dating game, tech is an enormously powerful tool. My cousin Deb uses Bumble, and I've seen how it's changed her experience. She's built real connections, gone on great dates with people who share similar interests and passions, and most importantly, felt confident along the way. Deb and I are super close. We potted up during the pandemic. Our families lived together. Deb's family and my family still live in the same town, so I've been able to watch up close as she's been able to build meaningful connections and go on great dates and ultimately enjoy her dating journey. What I love is that Bumble makes dating feel safer and more intentional. Everybody verifies their photo and phone number when they sign up. You can even add ID verification for extra peace of mind so you know the person you're meeting is real, their photos are theirs, and their age is too. Bumble also offers in app dating advice from experts, including Jillian Turecki, who's been a guest on on this show and the trusted therapist, Keir Gaines, who I follow on social media. Thinking about dating again. Take this as your sign and start your love story on Bumble. Alison, Sweet Grant, welcome to the show.

[A]

Thank you. So nice to be here, Dan.

[B]

Yeah, it's nice to meet you after having heard tell of you for a while, but not actually having been able to put a face to the name. So it's great to finally be with you.

[A]

Thank you. Well, I feel the same. I've watched you on television for a long time and read a lot of your work and seen your TED Talk, and it feels great to talk with you in person.

[B]

Thank you. Appreciate that. All right. Well, I don't know if you're comfortable starting this way, but I would be curious to hear a little bit of your personal story. I guess this is kind of me diving right into the tough stuff, so feel free to deflect if you want, but I know at the heart of your new novel is a personal history that is not fictionalized. And I've read that you have argued that this personal story was kind of eating its way out of you over time, and this novel is a manifestation of that. So would you be comfortable walking us through what happened to you as a child?

[A]

Sure. Right from the beginning. I was born with something called a fibular hemimelia and congenital short femur, which essentially translates to having one leg shorter than the other one, one longer than the other one. And in order to correct the discrepancy, I had to undergo a pretty arduous procedure that involves surgically breaking the bones of the affected limb, attaching a metal external fixator, which is essentially something that looks sort of like a bird cage from hip to toe, and stretching the bones over an extended period of time so that new bone fills in the spaces. Essentially, the aim of the procedure is so that both legs at the end are the same length. It started when I was 11 years old. The entire procedure took approximately two years. And the book that I wrote, it's not a memoir, but it is heavily inspired by this experience in my adolescence.

[B]

I don't know if this is me being overly dramatic, but that procedure sounds barbaric.

[A]

I wouldn't say it's overly dramatic. There were certainly times while I was going through it that it felt barbaric. In actuality, it's kind of amazing, right, that this can be done. And it's a procedure that's still used today for different diagnoses, for different complications, but certainly as a child, not fully understanding the extent of what was involved it felt horrific at times, and it led to a lot of emotional trauma that I carried with me for decades. And that really was the catalyst for this book, as you said. It absolutely felt like something was inside of me that was bursting to get out that I hadn't talked about for so long. And it was just sort of like stewing. Writing this book was a part of my healing process.

[B]

The trauma, was it the result of the physical pain only, or was it also. I understand from the research I've done coming into this interview that it was also the fact that there were social costs. You know, this was happening for you at the formative ages of 11, 12, 13, when everybody's in junior high and mean. And also there was some stuff about like your parents and the doctors not always giving you full information. So if I understand correctly, this is kind of a multidimensional trauma.

[A]

Yeah, I would definitely agree with you. I think there were a lot of layers to it. Yes, the procedure itself was incredibly physically painful. I was not only the actual surgical procedure to put the apparatus on, but then the process of stretching the bone over a period of time and lugging around this very heavy brace that was a permanent fixture on my body. It was something I couldn't take off. It was painful, it was physically painful. But the toll that it took on me psychologically, like you said at those formative stages and in middle school where everybody is in a fishbowl essentially, and there's no escaping it. You know, this was also 30 years ago. I think that the way that children are treated in medical settings, you know, it was very different back then. I wasn't given a lot of information. Oftentimes I was sitting in the room and people were talking about me, but they weren't talking to me. There was no trauma informed care, no patient centered care. I never spoke with a social worker. I never went to a support group. I was just sort of expected to handle it on my own, and I had trouble handling it on my own. So, yeah, there was a lot going on.

[B]

As I listen to the story and I'm obviously projecting here, but the experience sounds. And you'll tell me if I'm correct, the experience sounds lonely.

[A]

It was very lonely. It was very isolating for a long period of time. I was out of school because it was complicated and there were resources that I needed during the day that a school at that time couldn't provide. And so I was home in a hospital bed pretty much by myself. And so, yes, it was both physically and psychologically lonely. It Wasn't something that was very well known as a problem and as a procedure. So to be out in the world with this very visible and scary looking device, you know, attached to my physical body, there were a lot of questions, there were a lot of stares. People didn't understand what was happening to me. And in a way I didn't really either. And so it was a very lonely experience.

[B]

You said it went from 11 to 13. Was it the type of situation where it ended and everybody just expected you to resume your life as if nothing had happened?

[A]

Yes, pretty much. When I had the fixator removed, there's a very short period after where I wore like a cast, a fiberglass cast, and then had physical therapy to regain my gait and things like that. But after that short period, yeah, there was very little follow up. I was pretty much just expected to forget it, which was really hard to do. And instead of forgetting it and instead of talking about it, I just held it all inside and it sort of festered.

[B]

You have a concept that you talk about in the novel. I'm the cage. The concept is the junk drawer. Does that seem relevant to our current discussion?

[A]

I think so.

[B]

Can you explain it?

[A]

The junk drawer is really just a metaphor for all of the things that I struggled with and didn't have anywhere to put them. It was just a place inside of me where I kept all of the negative things that I thought about myself, all of the negative things that other people, whether intentionally or unintentionally, gave to me. All of the self doubt, all of the loneliness, all of the anxiety, all of the pain. It was sort of just like a collection basket for all of those anxieties. And it's a place that I referred back to. It was sort of like a filing system, you know, Is that something that. Do you have a junk drawer?

[B]

I would venture to argue that there's nobody without a junk drawer. Another metaphor that gets used, and I'm forgetting the poet's name, maybe Robert Bly. I apologize if I'm mangling that. But he has this idea of a black bag. Everybody carries a black bag full of shit that we're lugging around with us all the time. It's our history. And one way to cultivate empathy and compassion is just to imagine everybody you encounter during the course of your day lugging that black bag or their junk drawer. They may have worked with it, they may have not, but it is in either case going to inform the way they show up in the world now.

[A]

Yeah, I mean, I think you're Right. I think everybody has a black bag or a junk drawer. I didn't even really know until I started writing that I had it right. It becomes like a part of you, and you don't even realize that. It's like this separate entity. But, yeah, once I started opening it up and going through it, looking at all these memories that I had filed away, I was sort of able to process them a lot easier.

[B]

So before that point, as you'd built a career as a psychiatric nurse practitioner and a robust personal life as a wife and a mom, you kind of had this junk drawer that was acting upon you in ways that were often subconscious?

[A]

Yeah, absolutely. A lot of the weight of the experiences that I had, I think I didn't even realize they were weighing me down. I knew that I was sort of an anxious person. I knew that I was a paranoid person, but I always kind of just attributed it to me, like, my oddities kind of being like a strange kid. And I never really realized, hey, like, you went through these really difficult situations that anybody would have residual weirdness from, right? Maybe residual, like, anxiety or residual trust issues. And I never really gave myself the. That grace to say anybody would feel this way. I always just blame myself for being not able to handle it. Writing this book was a huge part of allowing myself to. I don't know, to cut myself some slack. Giving myself permission to be the way that I am and say it's okay.

[B]

I mean, that makes complete sense. What was the mechanism by which it produced that outcome? How did writing a fictionalized version of your childhood trauma allow you to cut yourself some slack?

[A]

I think writing for me is one of the only ways that I can be clear about the things that I'm thinking and feeling. And putting it down on paper was really important. Some people are really great at expressing themselves in words, and other people are more physical. And there's so many different ways of, like, putting the real you out there. And that's something I struggled with for a long time because there was a lot of shame in what I thought was the real me. But putting it down in a book, putting it down in words, I was able to say exactly what I wanted to say and examine things in ways that I had never been able to before. I don't know. It just gave me permission to be honest and to not feel like I was being judged by anyone else, to not feel like I had to perform for anyone else to look or act a certain way. It was like, the opportunity to be the most honest, you know, that I had been in a really long time. Once I started doing that, it kind of just kept coming, if that makes sense. Once I started, I didn't want to stop. And that's where the book came from.

[B]

Tell me if you think this is an accurate description of how this works. So you have the junk drawer. I'm going to stay with that analogy. And it's like for most of your life, several decades, it was everything. All the junk in the drawer was locked up. In said drawer, you were not. Think about it. You're actively suppressing it or compartmentalizing it, or actually not even actively subconsciously suppressing it even deeper into your subconscious. And then you make the conscious decision to open the junk drawer and put it all on the table. Okay. Here's a. Like a used paperclip. Here's a coaster that's stained. Here's that horrible shit that happened in seventh grade. Here's that thing the doctor said in front of me as if I wasn't there. Here's some old currency from a foreign country. Well, all the random shit that's in the drawer is on the table and therefore becomes much more workable. You can see it all pretty clearly, and then you can rearrange it in a way that gives you a ton of agency. Would that be a rough description of how the process worked for you?

[A]

I think that's a great description of how the process worked. You've talked before about this downward spiral, right? The toilet spiral. Is that the right.

[B]

Yeah. It comes from Evelyn Triboli, who's a friend of mine and has been on this show at least once. She calls it the toilet vortex, and it's a phrase that she got from the novelist Nabokov.

[A]

Okay. I felt like I was in the vortex. Like there was all of this stuff spinning around with me. Like I was trying to grab at things, and I didn't even know what these things were as they were, like, spinning around beside me, you know what I mean? Down the vortex. Laying them all out on the table was the first step for me in reversing the vortex and going up the upward spiral. Right. And making a conscious effort to examine what happened and not again, not worry about being judged by anyone else, but just really examining what happened, how I felt about it, what my life was like because of it, and then making a conscious choice to not let it define me anymore.

[B]

Yeah. Just to fill in some of the blanks here about the vortex, the toilet vortex and the upward spiral. I talked about this in a TED Talk. I gave that Your husband was very helpful with. He was one of the first people that I practiced it with. The toilet vortex is when you're kicking your own ass in any number of ways, and then that shows up in your relationships with other people, and then that makes you unhappy because relationships are so important to human flourishing. And then you're even harder on yourself, and then the relationships get worse, and then down you go. The opposite is where you're inner weather through any number of means. In this case, creative self expression, turning toward trauma instead of trying to run away from it. Your inner weather improves and then your relationships improve and then you get happier because again, relationships are probably the most important variable in human flourishing. And then your relationships improve even further and up you go. And I don't think we're on one of these perpetually. We toggle back and forth, but you can make yourself more prone to one or the other. I'll stop talking and see if any of that resonates with you.

[A]

It definitely resonates. I mean, like you said, I think my trauma came out in the way I interacted with everybody. And once you start looking at things through a different lens, you can interact with people in a different way and your relationships change. That's something that I absolutely saw happen over the course of writing this book. I think I'm a better person having written it. I think I'm a better wife having written it. I think I'm a better mother having written only gets better from there, hopefully, right?

[B]

Yes. So, yeah, what I would want for you is some grace to go into the toilet vortex if you haven't slept enough or if a nasty memory surfaces and you don't have full awareness of it. Perfection is not. Is not on offer.

[A]

Yeah. Don't you think, though, it's hard to know, like, when you're in the toilet vortex. Like for a long time I didn't even really know you're suffering, but it's so, like, normalized, you don't realize it's suffering 100%.

[B]

That's why it's so important to name that. That's why when I heard from Evelyn this idea of the toilet vortex, I was like, that's great. I'm going to use that because part of my job, and I think actually now part of your job as a. I think this is your third book as an author. You know, one of the services you can provide is to name things that people are kind of ambiently, vaguely aware of, but have never crystallized or fully articulated so that they have, like, what's the fancy word for this, like a heuristic, a way to understand it when it happens to them.

[A]

Yeah, I'm still working on it, for sure. My experience is only my experience. And I hope that there are people out there who read it and can connect to it and say, oh, yeah, I know exactly what she was feeling when she said this. I mean, that's amazing. And all that I can hope for, but I'm still working on it, too. There are still those thoughts and feelings that I haven't figured out, how to turn them into a heuristic yet, how to turn them into words. It takes time.

[B]

Yes. No, it absolutely takes time. The words that I find myself uttering a lot because people will say to me, yeah, you're pretty anxious for a meditation evangelist or whatever. Well, first of all, I say, well, you have the causality wrong. I'm a meditation evangelist because I'm anxious. But I also say something that my friend Sam Harris, I'm not related to, but who's a good friend of mine and who has also interviewed your husband on his podcast. On Sam's podcast, I was asking him many years ago, hey, you've been meditating for decades. What do you like? And he said, well, I retain the capacity to be a schmuck. And I really like that. If we create perfection as a goal, especially in this realm of whatever you want to call it, self improvement, self understanding. Yeah. Well, nobody's going to get there, so it's not constructive.

[A]

Yeah. You know, I have an interesting relationship with meditation, which is that, like, I try it repeatedly. And the hardest part for me is, like, clearing everything else out and focusing on the nothing.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And I know, like, for a lot of people, it's not nothing that they try to focus on. It's something very specific and poignant. I have a hard time with that. I just wonder, how do you yourself work through that when you're meditating?

[B]

One of the most helpful insights for me, and the thing that I try to say as loudly and frequently as possible, so thank you for giving me another opportunity to say it, is that the whole notion of clearing, clearing the mind, or like, there's a healthy version of clearing and then there's an unhealthy version of clearing. And the unhealthy version is unhealthy because it's just impossible. Like, if you tell yourself that, you're going to stop thinking, well, even that is a thought. So that's not going to happen. There is a healthy version of clearing where over time, if you do this practice where you focus your mind for just a few nanoseconds on your breath, on the feeling of your full body sitting in the chair, on loving kindness phrases, on sounds in the environment. You just pick something to focus on. And then every time you get distracted, start again and again and again. Over time, the mind does cough up less nonsense. And when it does, you're more aware of it. And that's a kind of gentle clearing away of old habit patterns and neuroses. But first of all, you can't do it with a hostile attitude. And second, it's not going to be a thorough cleaning. Like even the Buddha, after he got enlightened, you can see in the ancient texts, in his mind, he's still seeing old unhelpful stuff coming up. He's just no longer fooled by it. Yeah. So for me, just to take it back down to earth for a second, I'm not surprised or dismayed when I notice that I'm planning a homicide or whatever it is during my meditation session. It's just, it's what the mind does. And my goal is just to notice when I've gotten carried away and start again. One little phrase that I sometimes use, I literally use this when I'm meditating. When I wake up from distraction, whether it's been second or 10 minutes, is, great job, welcome back.

[A]

And that's something you say to yourself.

[B]

To myself, yes. Yeah, I did it. I was doing some walking meditation last night where you kind of walk slowly or this helps me fall asleep. Walk slowly around the house a little bit and feel my body moving. And then you get distracted and you start again. I was on some big jag of some dunking I was going to do on an enemy or something like that. And I was just like, yeah, great job, welcome back. Here's the world again. As my friend Jeff Warren says, it was like I'd been swallowed by a whale. You know, everything was gone, reality was gone. I was in my revenge fantasy and it's just like, oh, well, I'm back. Here's the world again. You know, great job.

[A]

It seems like you have a lot of revenge fantasies.

[B]

This is, well, I would say no judgment. I don't feel judged. Partly I use those for comedic effect. And it does speak to. I think there are two modes that I fall back into as a default greed or self centeredness or hatred. Anger, which can be directed outwardly or inwardly.

[A]

Right.

[B]

You know, again, to be Buddhist about this, the Buddha talked about these three poisons of the mind. Greed, hatred, and Delusion, which is just being confused, often confused that you're in the grips of greed or hatred. I don't really take it personally too much. It's just, this is the nature of the mind. And so over time, learning to get a little bit friendly with these aspects of the mind so they don't have their hands on the steering wheel so frequently. Anyway. Does it answer your question at all about how to meditate?

[A]

I'll have to get back to you on that, I think. I mean, I think it's something that I try to do often. I find it hard to carve out time during the day to sit down and meditate. But I do find it easy when I have a few spare minutes in the middle of an activity that I'm consciously doing, to pause and, like, take a few minutes to meditate. But that's also when it's hardest to focus. I do that like in the car when I'm waiting to pick up my kids from school, where I'm parked and there's nothing to do other than look out the window or listen to the radio. That's a time when I feel like, oh, I can take two minutes to try to center myself, to meditate, to repeat a mantra. And almost always I find myself looking out the window at the birds or whatever. I don't know. I haven't yet found a way to always call myself back.

[B]

Well, I gotta say, what I'm hearing is actually pretty good.

[A]

Oh.

[B]

Part of why I wanted to, before I went off into Buddhist esoterica, part of what I was really trying to say to you is, and this is something I hear from people all the time. I think you may have a story that you're a bad meditator, but actually what you're describing is good meditation, which is you try to focus on one thing, you get distracted, you start again. That's it.

[A]

That's it.

[B]

There are rarefied states at the deep end of the pool, but it's not relevant for most of us. And my practice, after having done this for 16 years, which, by the way, is nothing compared to the many, many masters I know, really is like, try to focus on one thing, get distracted, start again. I may be a little bit better at staying undistracted, but not that much better. That's not the point. The point is not to get better at meditation, although that can happen and it can be beautiful. But the point really is to get better at life, to be less owned by all of your thoughts. And so if you're finding a couple of minutes most days to try to focus on your breath or something like that. And then you get distracted. You're staring out the window or whatever it is, and then you wake up from that and you start again, like, great.

[A]

Yeah. Well, I'll take it. Thank you. If you say I'm good at it, I'm gonna. I appreciate that.

[B]

Good.

[A]

I'm gonna go with that.

[B]

I was interested when I was reading up on you that you had mentioned meditation as something that was helpful for you given your husband's very public and long standing history of hostility toward meditation. How does it go down when you guys are talking about this?

[A]

Well, we actually don't really talk about it that often because he, he is, like you said, pretty averse to meditation. But really, personally, I think it just comes down to the time. I mean, you have to set aside time to do this and he doesn't have a lot of time. It's pretty simple. We're lucky. He sets aside time to brush his teeth and meditation takes a backseat to that, I guess.

[B]

Fair enough.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Much more with Alison's week Brent after this. Today's episode is brought to you by Bumble, the go to dating app to find love. My wife and I met the old fashioned way. We went on a blind date. When we met, there were no dating apps. Actually, there were. There were no apps. That's how old we are. We met back in 2006, pre iPhone. Anyway. Now if you're in the dating game, tech is an enormously powerful tool. My cousin Deb uses Bumble, and I've seen how it's changed her experience. She's built real connections, gone on great dates with people who share similar interests and passions, and most importantly, felt confident along the way. Deb and I are super close. We potted up during the pandemic. Our families lived together. Deb's family and my family still live in the same town. So I've been able to watch up close as she's been able to build meaningful connections and go on great dates and ultimately enjoy her dating journey. What I love is that Bumble makes dating feel safer and more intentional. Everybody verifies their photo and phone number when they sign up. You can even add ID verification for extra peace of mind so you know the person you're meeting is real, their photos are theirs, and their age is too. Bumble also offers in app dating advice from experts, including Jillian Te, who's been a guest on the show, and the trusted therapist Kier Gaines, who I follow on social media thinking about dating Again. Take this as your sign and start your love story on Bumble. This show is sponsored by better help. October 10th is World Mental Health Day and this year we're saying thank you to therapists. I've had many therapists in my life right now and I totally support the idea of saying thank you to therapists. Therapists have helped me and continue to help me with so much better help. Therapists have helped over 5 million people worldwide. That's millions of stories, millions of journeys, and behind everyone is a therapist who showed up, listened and helped somebody take a step forward. This World mental health day, BetterHelp is honoring those connections and the therapists who make them possible while showing how easy it is to get get guidance from a licensed therapist online with better help. BetterHelp therapists work according to a strict code of conduct and are fully licensed in the US BetterHelp does the initial matching work for you so you can focus on your therapy goals. A short questionnaire helps you identify your needs and preferences and their 12 plus years of experience and industry leading match fulfillment rate means they typically get it right the first time. However, if you're not happy with your match, you can switch to a different therapist at any time from their tailored recommendations. This World Mental Health Day we're celebrating the therapists who've helped millions of people take a step forward. If you're ready to find the right therapist for you, BetterHelp can help you start that journey. Our listeners get 10% off their first [e-mail] happier. That's BetterHelp H E L P.com happy happier. You have done this really cool and brave thing of rewriting your own story. And as I've read about you, when you're asked like, what do you want people to take away from this book? Your answer is often like that rewriting your own story is possible. So I just wonder whether you can talk about how any of us can even contemplate beginning this kind of process.

[A]

Yeah, something that I spoke with Eleanor about last week was about how for most people it's unlikely that they'll make it out of childhood unscathed. Then you sort of like add the trauma, the specific trauma that I went through on top of it. And very few people make it, I think, to adulthood without something that they're holding onto. For me, you know, writing this book was a relief in a lot of ways because I didn't know how else to deal with all of the hurt that I was holding onto. Something that I've said before is I think it's okay to be grateful and grieving at the same time. I feel incredibly grateful for the opportunities that I was given, for this procedure that I went through, which was in many ways miraculous. But not everything went right. And it's okay to also be grieving for the things that didn't go right and to need to work on working through them. If I had one nugget of advice, it would be to realize that it's okay to hold both of those things, both the gratefulness and the grief, and move forward in a way that recognizes them both and allows you to deal with them in a way that feels right to you.

[B]

I like that. The simultaneity of gratitude and grief, that we can hold seemingly competing ideas in our mind at the same time, and they can actually inform one another. I should also say that the Eleanor you referenced is the. The mighty Eleanor Vasily, who's one of the producers on this show, who was in conversation with you before the recording of this podcast, and her job. Eleanor's job, or part of her job, is to prepare both the guest and her annoying host for every episode. But just to get back to this idea of rewriting your own story, like, I think inherent in what inherent in your project is not that everybody needs to go write a fictionalized version of their own lives. It's just that we can reassess and reframe the contents of our own junk drawer in whatever way works for us by talking to a therapist, by talking to our friends and family, by doing creative work. We just don't have to be stuck with the ancient story we're telling to ourselves and to the world about ourselves. Yeah.

[A]

I mean, that was one of the best parts of writing a piece of fiction, was that I could change the things that I wanted to change. I. I could give a different ending to this character than the one that I got right. Or I could sensationalize things that I wanted to and minimize things that I didn't. And there's just so much freedom there. And I was able to create the story that I wanted to share with the world, even when that differed from my own personal story, which actually kind of makes it hard to talk about sometimes, because when I'm sitting here with you and you're asking me questions about my own experience, questions about the book, some of those lines are a little bit blurry. And that makes it hard. Right? Because I don't know if I'm necessarily answering something from the perspective of a character that I created or from my own life. That contributes a little bit to my anxiety about these interviews. Because sometimes it's hard and I don't know which side to land on. It's not always clear.

[B]

But isn't it all you? I mean, any character you've created is the raw materials are mined and excavated from your mind?

[A]

Yeah, it all comes from me, for sure, but the details are not all the same. It's not a memoir. I didn't write a memoir. I didn't want to write a memoir. I wanted to tell my story in a way that felt safe to me. This is how that happened.

[B]

A couple of other questions just to pull back the curtain on. What motivates me in these interviews is wanting to always, like, serve the listener in terms of getting people to think about things they can do in their own life based on where they are and what their aptitudes are and what their resources are to improve their circumstances. And I think there's a lot in your story that's incredibly useful. One of the other strands that I think might be worth spending some time on is the loneliness piece or the isolation piece. And the fact that you did have the junk drawer kind of locked up in some sub basement of your mind. There is this tempting mirage of isolation that we can just keep this shit locked down, compartmentalized to ourselves, when in fact, I mean, it's not easy to do, but the easier life can result from not only doing what you've done, where you take the junk out of the drawer and rearrange it on a table, but also talking to other people about the stuff that you've been trying to keep as a secret. It seems to me like that's been really helpful for you and could be really helpful for other people.

[A]

Yeah, it's been incredibly helpful. I've heard from so many people who have not gone through, of course, the exact same thing, but who have their own juncture, who have their own trauma, who have their own stuff that they're just trying to stuff down. And just how it's nice to read somebody else's words when they feel like they came from your own heart. I know that's how I feel often when I'm reading. I love that feeling of going back and looking at a sentence again because it felt so real or it touched you in a deep way. And it's incredibly meaningful to me when I hear from somebody who said that there was something in this book that touched them. There's no greater feeling.

[B]

One of the terms that I talk about a lot on the show, so I Apologize to regular listeners who may be tired of me bringing this out of my junk drawer yet again. One of the terms that I love, and I don't know who said this or who coined it, but it's cathartic normalization that either in fiction or in just self disclosure, when an author or anybody can talk about stuff they've gone through. And the beholder, the listener, the viewer, even if the details are not familiar, can feel a kind of catharsis and. And liberation in just admitting the stuff that's true for all of us, but that we try through our, you know, constructed Personas, to hide.

[A]

Yeah, I agree with you completely. It is part of the human experience, right, to connect with other people. It's amazing when you can do that with, you know, a book sitting in front of you that somebody wrote in a totally different time, in a totally different place. I didn't know exactly how they were feeling in that moment. It's really special and rewarding.

[B]

It seems to me that the sine qua non is doing what you did, which is before you can come up with something that is useful to other people, like, you have to look at the stuff that you didn't want to look at. That just feels foundational internally.

[A]

That's very kind of you to say. And I, While I was writing, I often went back to the sort of thing that I told myself, which was just be honest, when I didn't know what I wanted to say, when I thought maybe I wrote something that I didn't like, or it didn't come out perfectly, or, you know, this is a mess, nobody's going to want to read this. I always just went back to this place where I tried to pull apart what it was I was trying to get across and. And be as honest and plain about it as possible so that other people who didn't know my history, who didn't know my experience, would be able to connect it to their own. And if I just put it out there simply, somebody else would be able to grab onto it as well.

[B]

Yeah. Yes. That reminds me of something I've heard. Sharon Salzberg, who's an eminent meditation teacher who's written many, many books, 12 or 13 of them, including some memoir stuff, that one of the pieces of advice she got when she was writing her memoir, Faith, which by the way, is not about blind belief, but about, you know, confidence or trust. But she was writing this book, and one of the pieces of advice she got was be honest, which sounds rote or basic, but is actually. And I'VE really meditated on this to be a little cute in my own writings. Like, if you're at a juncture and writing is all about junctures, constantly having to make decisions, just revert to what's true, even if it's in fiction, that's what's going to work.

[A]

I agree. It's not always easy to do. Right?

[B]

No. As we head toward the end of this, I have deliberately not asked you too many questions about the plot of the book because I want people to read the book. But are there aspects of the fictional narrative, as opposed to the biographical narrative that you've already shared, that you want to talk about?

[A]

Well, really, the plot of the book is really about a young woman who's running away, running away from everything in life that she knows and everything that she knows about herself. It's about the choices that she makes as an adult as a result of these things that she experienced in her past. The fictional part is very fictional. I never ran away, you know, to a cabin in the woods. But I wanted to. Part of it was allowing me to play out the scenario in my head that I never allowed myself to know, but wondered, how could things be different? It is fiction, but it's also still sort of a little bit true.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Because it's a desire that I had that never came to fulfillment. There's a lot of fiction. There's a lot of truth. It's interwoven. And I don't know what else to say to say about that. I like to think that I know where that line is because I wrote it, but it's a bit blurry for me as well.

[B]

That actually makes sense to me, not having written any fiction personally. Before we started the formal interview, you mentioned that you were a little nervous to do the interview. We're nearing completion now. How are you doing? Because I have not seen many outward manifestations of anxiety.

[A]

That's very kind of you to say. I don't know. I'm just not at that place yet where I'm 100% confident in not so much talking about the book, but talking about me and making sure that I communicate the things that I want to communicate in the right way, making sure they come out in the right way. I often feel like, oh, when people meet me, they might think, how did you write this book? Because you sound like a completely different person in real life than you do on paper. And I think that's true. And that's one of the things I love about writing, is that I can take my time I can say exactly what it is that I want to say. There's very little pressure. I can get things perfect. And it's a little bit nerve wracking wanting to be perfect for you in front of you and knowing that that is most likely not going to happen.

[B]

You did great. And I actually think perfection is the wrong goal because when you see people deliver a TED Talk or a book or an interview and it's perfect, it's also often like soulless and as if it was created by AI, it's actually the imperfections that make the thing work. This may be projection on my part, but I'm wondering if there's a decent comp to be made between your marriage and mine. Like, my wife is a very private person and she will occasionally come here on the podcast and co interview somebody with me, but she kind of hates it, kind of likes it at the same time, and she feels much more confident in writing than she does extemporizing. So she shares that in common with you. And she also shares in common with you that she's married to somebody who's constantly talking in public and working their ideas out in public and seemingly confident as they do it. Yes. I'm wondering if any of that lands for you.

[A]

Oh, for sure. It's a nice screen to be able to hide behind. Right. When you have somebody who's so public and out there, it makes it easier for me to be a private person. But yeah, even without that, I, I would struggle, I think, just because it's not where I'm comfortable and that's why I wrote a book as opposed to, you know, giving a TED Talk. But hopefully I did okay.

[B]

You did great. It was part of honestly why I was interested in doing this. Aside from the fact that your book hits on many of the themes that we explore in the show is thinking about my own wife who is writing her own book, which I don't know when it's gonna come out, but I really, I think there are a lot of similarities here. And also the aforementioned. Sam Harris is married to a brilliant woman who's been on my show a couple times and has written a beautiful book about consciousness, which is a really tough subject to capture and she does it beautifully, but is also, you know, super, super introverted and shy. And I don't think this is a gendered thing. I think there are many couples, I know many couples where the, the wife is the out there extroverted, outwardly facing person and it's the husband who shied. So I don't want to make this a gender thing, per se, but yeah. What I think forward to my wife eventually publishing her book. Like, I want to be in the audience at TED clapping. I want to be listening to her on podcasts.

[A]

That's amazing. Your wife talks a lot about imposter syndrome. Is that.

[B]

Yes. That's what the book is about? Yes.

[A]

Yeah, I have that, too.

[B]

Every. It's.

[A]

Don't we all.

[B]

This is a gendered thing because you just said, don't we all? But this is a really gendered thing because my wife and I are at social situations all the time where people will say, you know, what are you up to? And she used to be a physician, so, like, you also worked in the medical field. And she'll often say, or I'll say for her if she's feeling shy, she's writing a book about imposter syndrome. And basically 100% of the women say, I want to read that book because I need it. I have it. And 75% of the men give a blank bovine stare as if they have no idea what the term means.

[A]

That's pretty interesting. I think we definitely have a lot to talk about. It's something that I didn't even realize that I had until you're sort of put in the spotlight. Then it's right there for everybody to see.

[B]

Well, the spotlight on this show did not reveal an imposter.

[A]

Well, thank you.

[B]

Thanks for doing this. Before I let you go, can you just. I have a suspicion this will make you slightly uncomfortable, but can you just plug not only this book, but your previous books and anything else you're working on that we should know about?

[A]

Well, sure. The previous books were actually children's books, picture books that Adam and I co authored together. The first one was called the Gift Inside the Box, and the second one is called Weave in the Fall. And this book is called I Am the Cage. You can find information about all of [e-mail].

[B]

Yes. And the children's books explore themes that Adam and I have explored on this show, like generosity and perfection.

[A]

Perseverance.

[B]

Perseverance.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Okay. Well, I recommend everybody go check all this stuff out. Alison, sweet Grant, thank you very much for your time.

[A]

Thank you. Thank you so much for having me.

[B]

Thanks again to Alison's sweet Grant. Don't forget, the next live meditation and Q and A session is coming up this Tuesday, October 21st, at 4 Eastern. We do them same time, same place every week, four Eastern, Tuesday afternoons. I'm doing this next one solo Sometimes the teacher of the month does it. Speaking of the teacher of the Month, who is Ebony Selassie? She and I are doing an in person meditation retreat that I mentioned earlier. Few tickets left if you want to join October 24th. So coming up soon, Seb will be there. Jeff Warren, Ofosa Jones Corte. It'll be awesome. There's a link in the show notes. Finally, thank you to everybody who works so hard on this show. Our producers are Tara Anderson and Eleanor Vasily. Our recording and engineering is handled by the great folks over at Pod People. Lauren Smith is our managing producer, Marissa Schneiderman is our senior producer, DJ Cashmere is our executive producer and Nick Thorburn of the band island wrote our theme Morning.

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