Podcast Episode Summary

Podcast: 10% Happier with Dan Harris

Episode: The Dharma of Anxiety and Depression | Leslie Booker
Date: November 21, 2025
Guests: Dan Harris (host), Leslie Booker ("Booker")
Recorded: Live at New York Insight Meditation Center

Episode Overview

This candid, lively conversation between Dan Harris and esteemed dharma teacher Leslie Booker, recorded in front of a live audience at the New York Insight Meditation Center, dives deep into personal and social experiences of anxiety and depression. Drawing from both modern science and Buddhist wisdom, Dan and Booker discuss their own mental health histories and the practical, compassionate tools they have found to work. They examine generational and cultural shifts, the nuances of masking suffering, and how perfectionism and anxiety are impacted by identity, privilege, race, and gender. Throughout, they offer real talk, humor, and notable vulnerability—making this episode as practical as it is relatable.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Personal Histories: Early Encounters with Anxiety & Depression

• Dan’s Experience

  • First ages of depression linked to TV movies about nuclear war (00:51)
  • Early panic attack at 14 after smoking weed (06:00)
  • Anxiety and depression often spike around big transitions (e.g. college, career) (06:07)
  • Medication and meditation both play roles; recently going off medication (07:19)
  • "I have not experienced a fix or a cure... I’m gonna be dealing with this all the way to the lip of the grave." — Dan (06:59)

• Booker’s Experience

  • Depression started around puberty (“first period”) — dealt with it in secrecy due to shame (08:20)
  • Outgoing persona masked the pain; hid away for days during episodes (08:42)
  • Early ADHD diagnosis (in college, 30 years ago—rare at the time) (09:04)
  • Turned to art and dance as school was difficult; learned to hide struggles (09:41)
  • Post-2020 traumatic brain injury intensified mental health needs; moved onto medication (10:29)
  • "As we try to hide things, they actually get bigger." — Booker (08:38)

2. Family, Inherited Patterns, and Self-Sufficiency

• Intergenerational Anxiety

  • Dan describes inherited anxiety and perfectionism from his father (12:05)
  • Booker reflects on her mother's anxiety and possible undiagnosed ADHD, her mother's absence/presence due to medication, and the impact on her own self-reliance (12:20–12:58)
  • Booker recalls learning young: "I can just do it myself. I can just take care of myself." (13:00)
  • Giving and receiving: Booker practiced saying “Yes, thank you” for a year to learn how to receive help (13:28)

• The Reluctance to Ask for Help
  Dan: “The 'I can do it myself' energy is interesting because sometimes it’s like I don’t feel worthy of asking for help.” (13:19)

3. Gender, Race, and Cultural Perfectionism

• Masking and the Burden of Perfectionism
  • Booker describes masking anxiety and pain as a Black queer woman; the need to “be better than dominant culture” (19:34)
  • Anxiety as perfectionism, deeply tied to societal oppression and the need to prove oneself (19:52)
  • Dan quotes a Black woman news executive: "There is a tax that I pay that you don’t pay." (20:56)
  • Bandwidth and “hazard pay” for people of color in predominately white spaces (21:30)

4. Practical Strategies & Mindful Interventions

• Mindfulness & Radical Self-Honesty
  • Spotting anxiety/perfectionism as it arises, naming it to oneself and others, and then proposing a compromise:
    "Hey guys, I know I’m being a little... can we meet in the middle?" — Dan (22:02); Booker affirms (22:38)
  • Normalize but don’t marinate in anxiety/depression—add “here’s what I do, here’s what works for me” (24:33)
  • Mindfulness as self-compassion and practical adaptation
  • Booker: Being explicit about needs (ADHD, brain injury) with her work team created more support (22:41)

5. The Changing Conversation Around Mental Health

• Shifting Cultural Attitudes
  • Dan’s family and workplace once urged him not to speak openly about mental health; now, culture allows and encourages openness (23:25)
  • Downsides include “marinating” in suffering without moving to solutions (“contagion”) and the “weaponization of therapy speak” (24:34)
  • Contention around generational differences—older generations “just plowed through it,” younger generations prioritize mental health differently (25:34, 26:46)
  • Booker: “I didn’t know I had a choice in the matter.” (27:26)
  • Dan: “I’ve learned a ton from my younger staffers about how to be a human being.” (27:30)

6. ADHD, Anxiety, and Environment

• Personal Adaptation
  • Booker describes the link between ADHD and emergent anxiety—if her environment is optimized, calm ensues (30:12)
  • On reorganizing her home after a breakup: Pull-out shelves instead of deep cabinets, removing coffee tables—small but powerful changes for self-preservation and peace (29:54, 30:31)
  • “If everything is the way that I need it to be, I am so chilled.” — Booker (30:12]

7. Closing Reflections & Dedication of Merit

• Vulnerability and Community
  • Both acknowledge the vulnerability of sharing so candidly in a public, community setting (31:03)
  • Booker's emotional closing thanks to Dan and the audience (31:03)
  • Traditional Buddhist “dedication of merit”—sending any goodness from their work out to all beings suffering with anxiety, depression, or “neuro spicy brains” (31:59)
  • “May we take all that we've learned… and take it out into the world to be in service to all of those folks.” — Booker (32:40)

Notable Quotes & Moments

• Dan Harris:

  • "I have not experienced a fix or a cure. I'm assuming... that I'm gonna be dealing with this all the way to the lip of the grave." (06:59)
  • "Another great way to reduce fear and sadness is... being in the same room with other people without our phones." (07:02)
  • "The 'I can do it myself' energy is interesting because sometimes it's like I don't feel worthy of asking for help." (13:19)
  • "Spotting it, naming it... then you propose a compromise." (22:02)
  • "It’s important to talk about it, and then add, here’s what I do, here’s what works for me." (24:33)

• Leslie Booker:

  • "As we try to hide things, they actually get bigger." (08:38)
  • "I was explicit about my ADHD and brain injury... being very direct about what I need... has been such a... huge burden off your shoulders." (22:41)
  • "Anxiety is something that stayed... it manifests as perfectionism. Here at New York Insight, there’s a perfectionist tendency, but I also know when it’s happening." (19:48)
  • "If everything is the way that I need it to be, I am so chilled." (30:12)
  • "May we take all that we’ve learned... and take it out into the world to be in service to all of those folks." (32:40)

Important Timestamps

• 00:51–08:15 — Dan and Booker's personal histories with anxiety & depression
• 12:05–13:28 — Family inheritance and learning self-sufficiency
• 19:34–21:30 — Race, perfectionism, and the extra “tax” of being “first”
• 22:02–22:41 — Mindfulness, transparency, compromise as practical interventions
• 24:33–27:30 — The evolving cultural conversation (normalization, dangers, generational shift)
• 29:54–30:31 — Booker’s adaptations for ADHD and living well post-breakup
• 31:03–33:02 — Emotional closing, gratitude, dedication of merit

Tone & Style

The conversation is warm, funny, and brutally honest—with both Dan and Booker comfortable weaving in personal anecdotes and hard-won insights alongside Buddhist concepts and scientific research. The live audience energy and sense of community support this vulnerability.

Takeaways for Listeners

• Normalizing Mental Health Struggles: Anxiety & depression are common; talking openly about them reduces stigma.
• Practical Coping Tools: Mindfulness, honest communication, medication as needed, and adapting one's environment are all valid and helpful.
• Cultural Sensitivity: Experience of anxiety/perfectionism is shaped by race, gender, and upbringing.
• Self-Compassion: Don’t judge yourself for struggling—acknowledge, name, and adapt where possible.
• Dedication to Service: Bring what you learn in your healing journey out to others—community and shared vulnerability benefits everyone.

For further support, resources, or guided meditation, visit danharris.com or the New York Insight Meditation Center.