← 10% Happier with Dan Harris
10% Happier with Dan Harris
The Science Of Burnout — And How To Recharge From Stress | Kristin Neff and Christopher Germer
01:12:39
Loading summary
Transcript123 lines
- [00:01]
Dan Harris
Wondery plus subscribers can listen to 10% Happier early and ad free right now. Join Wondery plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. This is the 10% Happier podcast. I'm Dan Harris. Hello my fellow suffering beings. How we doing today? Burnout, characterized by chronic workplace stress that is not effectively managed is, I'm sad to say, on the rise. A recent study found 22% of American workers rated their level of burnout as high or very high, and globally, according to another survey, levels of burnout are at 43%. So what do we do about this? Well, today we've got two of the pioneers in the field of self compassion. That is a term that, as I have often joked, can sound variously soft or gauzy or vaguely autoerotic. But there is hard data suggesting that self compassion can have compelling psychological, physiological and even behavioral impacts, and my guests today have been responsible for leading many of those studies. These two humans have had a huge impact on my thinking about human flourishing and my own personal well being, and they've recently put out a book called Mindful Self Compassion for Burnout tools to help you recharge when you are overwhelmed by stress. Said guests are Dr. Kristen Neff, an associate professor of education psychology at the University of Texas at Austin, and her longtime Compadre Christopher Germer, Ph.D. a clinical psychologist and lecturer on psychiatry at the the Harvard Medical School. We talk about how to know if you are burnt out, the three main symptoms of burnout, their causes and their health consequences the three components of self compassion and how they can help. Here the inner critic and why we kick our own asses how to draw appropriate boundaries with your boss the difference between tender self compassion and fierce self compassion and tools for dealing with perfectionism without letting go of high standards. Just a note to say that this episode is part of a month long New Year's series we're running called Do Life Better. Every week we're looking at the top resolutions that people make and often break, and then we're addressing them from the angles of both modern science and ancient wisdom. This week is all about burnout and work life balance. Last week was about the science and dharma of your financial life and the week before that was all about physical fitness. Go back and check out those episodes if you missed them. Kristin Neff and Chris Germer coming up right after this. Real quick before we jump in to the episode, I'm hosting some special live events this week over on danharris.com, all about how to stay sane in turbulent Times every day at 3 Eastern Q& A about sanity strategies during the Presidential Inauguration Week. Later this week, I'll be joined by political analyst Van Jones. That's coming up on Tuesday and then on Wednesday the bestselling author Sharon McMahon. Live events are open to all subscribers, but only paid subscribers will be able to submit questions in advance, and your questions will get preferential treatment. You can visit danharris.com for all the details. I'll see you at 3pm Eastern. The happier Meditation app has introduced a new course called Even Now Love A Prescription for Connection. Led by the renowned teacher Joseph Goldstein, this timely course offers practical tools to pause, breathe and reconnect even when it feels impossible, and a turbulent world with fresh perspectives on relationships and self compassion practices that actually work. It's a powerful way to approach the new year with love. Download the Happier Meditation app today and explore Even Now Love. I love Staying in Airbnbs. Last year a bunch of families got together and we had an Airbnb near a ski lodge in upstate New York. It wasn't even snowing yet. The point was just to hang out and we all spent the weekend together in this house. It was incredibly cozy and fun as my friend Zev sometimes jokes jokes it's really cool to get out of the dinner industrial complex and instead of just spending time with your favorite people over, you know, this kind of regimented two hour meal at a restaurant, which can be super expensive. When you get a house together you're really, really hanging out and it's a great way to get to know other people's children. My son was so happy during dinner he got up from the table just to dance, which is always a good sign. Long way of saying I like Airbnb. Maybe you want to go somewhere warm over the winter while you're away, you could Airbnb your home and make some extra money toward your tr. Whether you could use a little extra money to cover some bills or for something a little more fun, your home or spare room might be worth more than you think. Find out how much@airbnb.com host nerds when it comes to finding the best financial products, have you ever wished someone would do all the heavy lifting for you? Take all that research off your plate? I definitely have. And the good news is that with NerdWallet's 2025 Best of Awards, that wish has come true. The nerds already did the work for you, reviewing over 1,100 financial products, things like credit cards, savings accounts and more to bring you only the best of the best. I'm just not great at paying attention to things like this. When we get into the details, especially if it involves math, I'm out. And so the fact that the good folks over at NerdWallet are doing this work for us, just deep bow, man hat tip. Check out the 2025 Best of Awards today at NerdWallet.com awards. That's NerdWallet.com awards. Kristin Neff and Chris Germer, welcome back to the show, both of you.
- [06:07]
Kristen Neff
Thanks so much for having us back.
- [06:09]
Christopher Germer
Yeah, it's just great. Thank you, Dan.
- [06:11]
Dan Harris
You guys have been individually and collectively a massive influence on me and my work. So don't expect a hostile interview here.
- [06:23]
Kristen Neff
Thank you. Very sweet. Although I kind of like the hostile version of you. I don't know about that.
- [06:29]
Dan Harris
Be careful what you wish for, Neff.
- [06:31]
Kristen Neff
Okay. It's true.
- [06:34]
Dan Harris
Congratulations on this new book about burnout. Huge, huge issue. Let's just start there with burnout. Why did you choose this subject?
- [06:43]
Kristen Neff
Well, actually, it was my idea, or Chris can blame me for it. Just like everyone, we were feeling burnt out. I mean, the pandemic was really the inspiration for at least me personally, just feeling like my son was being homeschooled and so much stress about everything shutting down. And I just realized that although I teetered on the edge of burnout, you might say, I didn't go into full on burnout because I had my self compassion practice. And so after we came out of the pandemic, I said to Chris, what do you think we could just apply some of our self compassion tools to burnout. It would probably be really useful. And then you said, chris, what did you say to me?
- [07:24]
Christopher Germer
What I said is, I said, I'm kind of burned out too. I think we need a ghostwriter.
- [07:30]
Kristen Neff
Yeah, he was too burned out to write a book on burnout.
- [07:33]
Christopher Germer
Yeah, but you know how it is with academics. The way we solve our own problems is by writing a book about it. Yeah, but any rate, we did, you know, get a ghostwriter. And as she was writing, we got more deeply into the intersection of self compassion and burnout, and we learned a ton. I think that helped as well. But I was also burned out. Somewhat different reason. You know, it was during the pandemic and I turned 69 years old and it was clear to me, I'm not going to live forever. And I started kind of resenting the work that I was doing. Even though it was good work, it just, it didn't land the way it used to. So I Would say a shift in core values as a result of my age made me really feel exhausted and not productive and somewhat detached from my work. And so, you know, I too, like Kristen, was kind of on the road to burnout. So it was a pretty exciting invitation that Kristin presented.
- [08:35]
Kristen Neff
And by the way, we should say, although we did initially start with a ghostwriter, it turns out that we did kind of have to rewrite everything because there is a certain level of expertise that goes with it. But it was so helpful that we didn't have to look at that blank page that we just had to change the page that was already there. So that was kind of an interesting technique that actually I think made a little easier for us to write the book. There was no blank page, but at the end of the day, it's probably like 90% ours or something like that.
- [09:05]
Dan Harris
So, Chris, let me ask you because you talked about, in your own experience of burnout, you were talking about how like you were feeling disconnected and tired. Like, so as far as I know it, there are typically three symptoms in burnout. Can you talk about what those are?
- [09:23]
Christopher Germer
Yeah. So burnout is a long term stress reaction that's characterized by three main components. One is exhaustion, which means feeling drained and fatigued, nothing left to give. The second is depersonalization, which means feeling kind of detached from our work, maybe a little cynical, negative about it. And the third is a sense of reduced accomplishment. Either we, quote, are not as productive or competent as we were before, or we just feel that way and together it's the consequence of long term stress.
- [10:06]
Dan Harris
Well, okay, so Kristen, let me turn to you. Then he said it's the consequence of long term stress. Can you say more about what causes burnout?
- [10:16]
Kristen Neff
Yeah. So basically it's when the stress we're experiencing in our life exceeds our ability to hold it or be with it or cope with it. And so it may be stress of just a lot of work that we can't. We don't actually have enough time to get the work accomplished that we have assigned to us or that's on our plate. It might be stress in terms of the environment we're in. Like, for instance, in the pandemic, which was very stressful, it wasn't so much that we were overloaded with work, but it was just all these other external factors like the fear of our health and just everything going on, all the changes. So really when we just, you know, the anxiety that's produced by the stress in our environment, by the way, it also can be some internal stress. We put on ourselves, we certainly can exacerbate the stress we're experiencing if we fight it or we resist it, or we kind of amplify it through a lot of negative thinking. So it can be both internal and external causes of stress. And again, if it overwhelms us, if we don't feel we're strong enough or we have the resources to cope with the stress, the three things we do is we shut down with exhaustion. Another kind of shutting down is this depersonalization just going a little numb. And then when we blame ourselves for all that stress, like we feel like we should be able to, you know, cope and we can't, what's wrong with us that adds to the sense of incompetence.
- [11:35]
Dan Harris
So we talked about the causes and the symptoms, but what are the health consequences? And Chris, if you want to take that.
- [11:44]
Christopher Germer
Yeah, well, burnout can have a huge effect on both the mind and the body. Actually, we could say that the majority of the physical difficulties that we experience in life are at least partly contributed to by stress. So physical consequences of burnout include gastrointestinal difficulties, cardiovascular problems, muscular problems. All the systems in our body are actually impacted by stress. When we're under chronic stress, then we don't sleep very well. And when we don't sleep well, it leads to chronic stress. And psychologically we experience in fact, enhanced stress, but it comes out in the form of anxiety, depression. Sometimes we respond to burnout with substance abuse or erratic behaviors. So pretty much the whole panoply of physical and emotional ills can result from burnout.
- [12:50]
Dan Harris
And Kristen, do we have any sense of whether burnout is on the rise?
- [12:55]
Kristen Neff
You know, the studies are really all over the place. Anywhere from 30%. Some studies find 70% of the population is suffering from burnout. So I think it's kind of hard to say. Certainly right after the pandemic, burnout was probably at a all time high, especially among healthcare providers. The people who are actually overwhelmed by having to deal with the health crisis. And since that time, it's probably lowered a little bit. You know, it's hard to know. It also may be that we're more sensitive to it than we used to be. A lot of things where there's an increased diagnosis, it's just we're more aware of the symptoms of it. I think in general, I would say yes. But the extent to which it's on the rise is hard to pin down. And I'm going to throw this open to Chris. Is there anything I should add to that that you're aware of. I mean, it's a little vague. I find it's a little mushy, the science rates of burnout. But what do you think, Chris? Anything I should add to that?
- [13:47]
Christopher Germer
There was a recent report by the American Medical association that showed since the pandemic, an actual decrease in burnout. It was 56% among doctors in 2021, then 53% in 2022, and in 2023, it was 48%. And the medical profession was celebrating because it's lower than 50%. However, what this means is if you're going to see your doctor, there's a 50% chance your doctor doesn't want to see you. So it's really just still way too high.
- [14:23]
Kristen Neff
Good answer.
- [14:26]
Dan Harris
How do you know if you're burned out? Kristen? I guess I'll go back to you. I mean, are there diagnostic questions we can run by ourselves?
- [14:35]
Kristen Neff
Yeah. So, for instance, one of the most common inventories or ways to assess burnout, it's called the Maslow Burnout Inventory, and it actually does assess these three main components of burnout. You know, how exhausted you are. So that's one way you can just check in with yourself. Do you feel like getting out of bed in the morning? Are your energy levels, do they seem lower than they used to be? Right. Does everything feel like a huge uphill battle? So that'd be one way of checking in with exhaustion. The depersonalization, again, it's this numb feeling. So, for instance, if you work with people, let's say you're a doctor or a therapist, you know, maybe you seem to care a little bit less about the people you work with. You feel detached from them, or maybe you start to feel a little detached from people in your life, or maybe you just feel a little detached from life in general. Right. So this feeling of numbness, of just not caring as much, of course, which is the natural response of the heart shutting down under all the overwhelming stress. And then the last thing is just checking in about how are you relating towards yourself? Right. Are you feeling like it's your fault that you should be elsewhere, you know, you should be doing better, that maybe it's because you aren't good enough or competent enough that you're in this mess, basically. And so those are the main three ways we obsess. Burnout. And so you can just ask these straightforward questions of yourself. Where do you fall? Experiences? Sometimes maybe you're exhausted, but you're still engaged and you don't blame yourself, then that's going to be easier. To bear than if you have all three simultaneously, something's wrong with you, you're exhausted, and you just don't care, then that's going to be harder to overcome.
- [16:18]
Dan Harris
Yes, that makes complete sense just thinking about that. Okay, so what is self compassion and how can it help? Chris, why don't you take that one?
- [16:29]
Christopher Germer
Yeah. So we can look at self compassion through an informal definition, which is that when we suffer, treating ourselves with the same kindness and understanding as we would treat a good friend, which typically doesn't happen, up to 80% of us are more compassionate toward others than we are toward ourselves. And then there's a formal definition of self compassion, which Kristin created back in 2003, and I would like to leave it to her to share that.
- [17:01]
Kristen Neff
Yeah. So while talking about three components, there are also three components of self compassion. The most obvious one is kindness and warmth, treating yourself with support and encouragement, as opposed to harsh judgment or criticism or blame or shame. But there are two other elements that are important. One is mindfulness, actually. So mindfulness is built in to self compassion. So mindfulness in the sense that you're aware of your struggles with some perspective, so you aren't ignoring it. I mean, a lot of people who are burned out, for instance, it's just like stiff upper lip. I'm not even going to acknowledge there's a problem. I'm just going to like, soldier on. So you can't give yourself compassion for your stress if you aren't acknowledging there's an issue. On the other hand, if you lose your mindfulness by being lost in the difficult emotions, like carried away from them, then it's also hard to have the stable place to give yourself compassion. So we need to be mindful of our distress and our stress levels. And then third, which is really key, and this is what differentiates self compassion from self pity is the sense that this is part of the human experience. It's not just me. It's not my fault. It's not like I'm abnormal for experiencing this. All human beings struggle, right? So all human beings in a similar situation may have a similar type of reaction. And that sense of connectedness to others really empowers us when we don't feel so alone.
- [18:29]
Dan Harris
So the three component parts of self compassion are being kind to yourself, which, you know, treating yourself the way you would a good friend. Mindfulness, which is just seeing clearly what's happening right now inside of yourself. And then third, as you say, common humanity, getting a sense that you're not alone in this at any given Moment millions of people are dealing with whatever you're dealing with. How do those three components help with burnout? Chris? I guess I'll go to you.
- [19:03]
Christopher Germer
Yeah, well, each one has a big impact. First of all, when we are starting to burn out and don't know it, addressing first the mindfulness component. When we don't know it, it just kind of rolls on without any capacity to change what's happening in our lives. But when we can feel the stress of burnout and particularly do it in a mindful way, which means with a kind of acceptance and non judgment, that really creates a foundation for changing our lives. Either what's going on in terms of the internal causes of burnout or the external conditions. So mindfulness is the first step. Common humanity is also really important because when people are burned out, first of all they blame themselves for being burned out, but they also feel desperately alone. And the more alone we feel then the more we suffer. So the element of common humanity basically says, hey, burnout is part of the human condition. In fact, I would say two of the main causes of burnout are, number one, you're human and number two, you care about your work. And so it's really a very natural consequence of an imbalance between our resources and the stressors in our lives around our work. So that's common humanity. And then the third part, self kindness is really what is called for when we're suffering. And in particular there are two aspects of that. One is the self kindness. Because when there's an imbalance between how we're caring for others and caring for ourselves, we will inevitably be drained. But also kindness is really important. Shifting from a kind of threat based, self attacking way of relating to ourselves in the midst of burnout to care. You know, both care in a tender way. Like, you know, if we haven't been having lunch to start having lunch, if we haven't been sleeping to make sure we get enough sleep. But also maybe in a fierce way, you know, being able to say to our colleagues or our boss, you know, I can't take this on this evening, I must go home. You know, there are so many expressions of kindness then which really have the capacity to reverse the effect the causes of burnout as well as the effects of burnout.
- [21:36]
Dan Harris
There are so many issues raised by everything you just said there, Chris. And I just want to promise the listener that we're gonna dive deeply into how to apply the three component parts of self compassion to burnout. And we're gonna talk about the difference between fierce self compassion and, and what you guys call tender self compassion. So a lot more practical stuff coming up, but let me just stay on a high level for a few more minutes. Kristen, you've been on the show many times for which I'm grateful. And one of the questions I always ask you because, not because I'm retaining any skepticism about what you're talking about, but because I know a lot of listeners will be. So I'm going to ask you this question again, which is I suspect there are listeners who are going to say, yeah, well if I've got a lot of to do, treating myself kindly is going to pretty much guarantee I'm not going to get it done. I need, I need to be stressed and anxious and self lacerating in order to succeed. What say you in response to that?
- [22:39]
Kristen Neff
Yeah, so it's amazing how ubiquitous that misperception is. And I would say the research shows it's actually the exact opposite. So let's say you've got a meet to meet a deadline and you're really stressed about it and you beat yourself up or you shame yourself or you criticize yourself, you know, if you don't make it, you know, you're, you're a loser. Well, that's actually just going to add to your stress and anxiety. So if you care about yourself, in other words, if it is an important goal for you, you're gonna go farther with encouragement than with beating yourself up. So what the research shows is your standards don't slip at all. You still care, you still wanna reach the same goals, but the way you achieve them and the reason you achieve them is different. In other words, you aren't doing it to be a worthy person. You're doing it because you care and it's important to you and therefore this is huge. If you have a setback or you know, something doesn't go the way you had planned it to of shaming yourself again, which creates performance anxiety and stress and makes things worse. You say, what can I learn from this? You know, maybe what went wrong, it's okay, it happens. Everyone makes mistakes or things. I experience setbacks, but what can I learn from this situation? And so the research shows it actually improves performance partly by reducing performance anxiety. So it'll help, it won't hurt. There's two types of coaches. Some coaches that just tear you down, yeah, they kind of get something out of their players, but the players also freeze in a difficult moment because they're so stressed out. They're those coaches who say clearly, okay, what you need to do to Improve your game. But I believe in you. How can I help? We can do this. And that type of encouraging motivation we know is just much more effective. So the same with getting out of burnout or getting your work done. It's the same principles apply.
- [24:25]
Dan Harris
Are there studies that go right at this, at self compassion for burnout? Chris, you want to take this one?
- [24:33]
Christopher Germer
There's actually a lot of research that shows, if nothing else, self compassion is actually a splendid antidote to burnout. So for example, we have learned that self compassionate people are less exhausted and depleted by their work. They're less stressed and overwhelmed. They're less depressed, hopeless or cynical. They're more able to maintain a work life balance. They're better able to draw boundaries with others. They're more, they feel more connected to others. They're better able to cope with work challenges. They feel more competent and effective. They, they're more satisfied with the work they do. The list really goes on and on.
- [25:17]
Kristen Neff
Yeah, we also have, we've done some studies actually training people to be more self compassionate. I did a study with, with staff at a children's hospital who are under a lot of stress and we found that training them to be more self compassionate actually did reduce their burnout levels as measured by the MASLOC inventory. So this isn't just a good idea. We have a lot of research showing that it really works.
- [25:41]
Dan Harris
I mean, Kristen, you and I have known each other for quite a while. I think I met you 15 years ago and I was quite hostile and skeptical back then. You just won me over with the data. I mean, over and over, there's just hard data to show that this stuff works. And then when I tried it, and I don't want anybody ever, you know, actually seeing me when I put my hand on my heart and talk to myself in a supportive way. But I do do it and it really, really works in my experience as well. So, you know, I'm here as a reluctant convert. So one of the things you do. I just made reference to one of the many practices that are part of this body of self compassion research that the two of you have built. One of the things you do in this new book is you list a bunch of tools and tool number one. And I guess I'll start with you, Chris, on this. Tool number one is a kind of self assessment. Can you walk us through this?
- [26:35]
Christopher Germer
Yeah, well, it's just basically it's just an assessment of how compassionate we are with ourselves in the context of work stress. I think maybe Kristin could respond to that. Even better than I could.
- [26:49]
Kristen Neff
Okay. Yeah. And by the way, we should probably clarify, burnout often comes from work stress, but other types of stress. For instance, if you're in the sandwich generation and you're caring for a child and your elderly parents, which is work, but might be unpaid work, interpersonal work, sometimes people get burnt out, let's say, by politics or the world situation. So there's really many different sources of this stress that can lead to burnout. And so what we did, basically, and I'm gonna admit this probably isn't totally empirically supportive, but I used my Self Compassion Scale, which has a lot of empirical support. We just ask people to respond to the questions in the context of how they deal with stress. So, for instance, I tend to be kind to myself, or I tend to judge myself. I tend to feel all alone, or I tend to remember that this is part of the human experience, or I tend to be kind of balanced, or I tend to run and exaggerate what's happening. So you can actually apply the Self Compassion Scale to the context of burnout and get a sense of your score.
- [27:54]
Dan Harris
Okay, I'm going to move on because there are a bunch of tools I want to get to here, but that was very helpful. So tool number two. Chris, I'll go back to you for this. Essentially, in tool number two, you're asking, how would you treat a friend or a colleague who is feeling burned out? Can you build on that?
- [28:09]
Christopher Germer
Yeah. So for most people, the easiest way to activate a sense of compassion is by how we relate to others. Then one way of actually learning what that is like and how to be compassionate with ourselves is to connect with how we treat others. So generally speaking, we say here in the west, love your neighbor as yourself. But since so many of us are frankly not so good at loving ourselves, then the question is, love ourselves as we love our neighbors. So if we can think about how we treat others when they are suffering, particularly in the case of burnout, when they're experiencing work stress, what would you say? What would your attitude be? What would your posture be? How would you lean in to a friend? And then to begin to contemplate, hmm, can I do this for myself? If I say to my friend something like, hey, you know, you are just working so hard and you're doing such good work, and it just seems to me maybe you're not getting enough sleep. If I would say that to my friend, could I begin to say something like that to myself? Could I acknowledge how hard I'm working? Could I say to myself, could I acknowledge to myself what a contribution I'm making? And on that foundation, could I, in fact, you know, sleep a little longer? So basically, the way home to self compassion is often through how we would treat others.
- [29:52]
Dan Harris
So are you saying that we could practice on other people and then channel our mentorship capacity onto ourselves?
- [30:00]
Christopher Germer
Well, we don't. Well, I guess we could practice physically with others, but mostly we know how we would treat a friend who was feeling burned out. And then just holding that in our minds, see if we can begin to offer ourselves the same mercy, the same kindness, the same compassion.
- [30:20]
Dan Harris
And so what does that look like practically? Is it just having a conversation with yourself in whatever physical posture you happen to find yourself at that moment?
- [30:31]
Christopher Germer
Well, if we go back to the three components of self compassion, the first thing it does is just, you know, if you can acknowledge in another person, you could, you know, validate. Yeah, you know this. You're under constant stress, you're burned out. If we can say that to ourselves, that itself is an enormous relief. Second thing is the experience of connecting with someone who's burned out is also, in other words, common humanity is also inherently healing. And maybe when we're burned out, we're feeling isolated, alone, and we need to connect with others. Or maybe we just need to notice that, you know, getting burned out is not a crime, that it's part of the human condition. So that helps too. In other words, imagining I'm treating somebody else in the in a mindful way, with an awareness of common humanity. And then the third part again is self kindness, in other words, or kindness. What ways might I express kindness toward another person? Is it in my words, in different kinds of actions? Can I in fact treat myself exactly the same way, in other words, with the same attitude, with the same language, with the same behaviors? And that then gets the self compassion train out of the station. Yeah.
- [31:48]
Kristen Neff
And let me just add on to that. Following on from get the self compassion train out of the station, a lot of people feel like, I don't know how to be self compassionate. I'm not used to it. This feels uncomfortable, it feels phony. But they are really used to doing it for others. So as Chris said, you kind of get the juices flowing, so to speak. You get the thoughts, you get the images, you're actually tapping in to a particular part of your nervous system, which is the parasympathetic nervous system. And so you kind of do a hack. You tap into what feels natural for others, and then you do this U turn it's almost like a way of you're not really tricking yourself, but you're helping access through the portal of care for others, which you're more used to. So then you can start doing it with yourself.
- [32:32]
Dan Harris
You know what it reminds me of is in Metta M E T t a meditation otherwise known as loving kindness meditation. Often we start by, you know, the traditional instructions are start by envisioning yourself and sending yourself these classic loving kindness phrases like may I be happy, safe, healthy, live with ease. Many western teachers have come up with a hack which is actually no, let's start with an easy person, like an animal or a kid, and then do a bait and switch. Once the, to use your phrase, the train has left the station, the warmth train has left the station, then we move to ourselves. This kind of reminds me of that. Does that land for you?
- [33:14]
Christopher Germer
That's precisely what it is, Dan. Yeah, yeah.
- [33:17]
Kristen Neff
Bait and switch.
- [33:18]
Christopher Germer
It's a bait and switch. It's a U turn. Yeah. It's learning to love ourselves as we love our neighbors.
- [33:26]
Kristen Neff
And I would just ask. So loving kindness meditation, although it's great, it's kind of very generalized. May you be well, may you be happy, may you be peaceful, may you be safe. The nice thing about doing this with self compassion is you could think, what if my good friend was in the exact same situation I'm in, was caring for the elderly parent and had a job and had kids and all this stuff was going in their life and was struggling. It actually makes it a little more concrete. So I think it's almost easier to do this hack, so to speak, because then you can really envision, well, what would I say in my exact same situation and then do the U turn. So that's partly why you might even say that self compassion is a little bit more tangible than general loving kindness because it's in the context of a particular instance of suffering and struggle, in this case, burnout.
- [34:19]
Christopher Germer
Loving kindness kind of sets the intention, it sets the attitude. But then self compassion practice in this form puts flesh on the bones, it gives it some individual texture.
- [34:31]
Dan Harris
Yeah, that certainly jabs with the way I experience it, you know, within a classical Buddhist context. And I'm not telling either of you anything you don't already know. I'm more talking to the audience here. But in a classical Buddhist context, there are these four. This is a bit of a grandiose phrase, but divine abodes, you know, these four states of mind that are all trainable. One of them is loving kindness, which you can think of as friendliness Actually, that's a better translation. Friendliness, a general sense of warmth. Another is compassion, which is specifically a desire to alleviate suffering. So it's, it's more active and specific in that it's targeting suffering. The other two, just while we're at it, one of them is equanimity, which is just the ability to be balanced in the face of suffering. And we're going to talk about that because it's something that comes up in your book. And the fourth is mudita, or being happy in the face of other people's happiness, which is like the opposite of schadenfreude. I love that the Buddhists and the Germans differ in this way. But let's get back to self compassion for a second. Kristen, you talk, and I've had you on the show to talk about this at great length, but I think it's worth describing at least briefly here because it's going to come up throughout our discussion the difference between tender self compassion and fierce self compassion.
- [35:53]
Kristen Neff
Yeah. So if you think of compassion as generally the desire to alleviate suffering, which is actually the standard definition in the field of psychology, it's actually the motivation to alleviate suffering. There's a couple ways we can do that. So tender self compassion alleviates suffering through acceptance. So instead of, you know, judging ourselves so harshly or shaming ourselves, we accept ourselves as flawed human beings. We also accept the fact that, you know, our life is imperfect. And to some extent that's okay. We embrace ourselves just as we are, with tenderness and warmth and a sense of connection. But alleviating suffering sometimes needs acceptance, but sometimes it needs action. So we don't want to accept like a bad relationship, for instance, or we don't want to accept behaviors we're engaged in that are harming ourselves or others. And so in this case, it's what I call fear. Self compassion is taking action to alleviate suffering. So that might mean protecting ourselves. So protecting ourselves by drawing boundaries, by saying no, by speaking up. And by the way, this could be to ourselves or others providing for our needs. Right. Actually saying that my needs count too, and some of my precious energy and resources are gonna spent on meeting my needs and then really importantly, motivating change. It's not compassionate to just be complacent if we're unhappy or if it's harming us in some way. Right. So a compassionate person will be motivated to make changes to help them be happier and healthier in their life. And so it's like yin and yang, though. They need to be balanced. And this Is interesting in the context of burnout, because if we're too much about the yang, fierce energy. Yeah. Motivating change, I can do it, I can get it done. I can work, I can, you know, reach my goals. But there's no tenderness, there's no acceptance of the fact that, you know, you are an imperfect human being and you aren't superhuman, then that actually could contribute to burnout. So we become exhausted. And I think in some ways our culture encourages that. On the other hand, if we're too yin, if we're too much about being tender to ourselves, acceptance and we do become complacent, right? We stop trying or we stop making the changes we need in our life. That's not good for us either. So it really is about this balance of the fierce and the tender. And moment by moment, this is really key, asking yourself, what do I need right now? Do I need a little more fierceness? Do I need a little more tenderness? And it's not like you get to one place. It's a constant process of balancing and rebalancing, orienting toward, well, being.
- [38:31]
Dan Harris
This came up the last time Chris was on the show. Actually, the first time Chris was on the show. This is only his second appearance, sadly, we'll remedy that. But the first time Chris was on the show, I believe he described what do I need right now? As the preeminent self compassion question. And it's not just do I need tender or fierce self compassion? It may just be like, I need a snack or I need a nap or just constantly checking in, not in a self indulgent way, but in a way that allows you to be fully resourced and fortified, to be a good citizen and a good family member. Chris, am I restating this with any degree of accuracy?
- [39:09]
Christopher Germer
Yeah, for sure, for sure. I think again, it's about the specifics, right? And the more specific we can be, the more we can understand what it is that we need and then miraculously give it to ourselves, we will experience compassion. I mean, there can be a kind of general aspect to it in terms of attitude, but there's. But when compassion is delivered in a specific way, like if somebody gives you exactly a gift that you've been yearning to receive and you had no idea you were going to get that gift, it has a huge impact. Well, we can do the same thing for ourselves. We can give ourselves those gifts that we really need, but they do actually, the different categories of tender and fierce compassion are kind of a heuristic. They can guide us to give us what we need. Because when we're in a bad state, like for example, in burnout, and we ask the question, what do I need? We're probably hard pressed to answer that question. So if we can say, what do I need right now to feel safe, then sometimes like, oh yeah, what I need to do is just go home and hide under the covers for about an hour and recover. You know, that makes a lot of sense. Or what do I need? As Kristin was saying on the tender side, specifically, what do I need to physically soothe myself? What do I need to emotionally comfort myself? What do I need to validate myself? You know, maybe I need to talk to a friend. Maybe I need to write in my journal. What do I need to protect myself? Maybe specifically I need to have an important talk with my boss or my colleague. What do I need to provide for myself? You know, maybe I need to nourish my creative instincts. Maybe I need to eat dinner. What do I need to motivate myself? Maybe there's something I really need to do, but it's hard to do. How can I be that inner coach, that inner ally that I need? What words in particular do I need to hear in order to do something difficult that's going to make all the difference in our lives? So this question, what do I need? Is really loaded. But when we nail it. Compassion balloons.
- [41:30]
Dan Harris
Kristen, as we've established, there are a ton of practices in this new book, practices where you can apply self compassion to burnout. You actually have a practice designed around this question of what do I need? Can you describe that?
- [41:43]
Kristen Neff
Yes. So one of the ways we can give ourselves what we need, or at least figure out what it is we need, is by using the three components of self compassion. So again, always starting with mindfulness, getting clear, trying to use the clarity provided with mindfulness to figure out, well, where. How am I feeling unsatisfied or unfulfilled, and what might help fulfill me, right? Really just authentically, what is true for me? Again, not just the standard advice that your culture says you should need. What is honestly true for me? What do I really need to be fulfilled? Right? And then common humanity. It's interesting when it comes to providing for ourselves, it's not like my way or the highway that I care about myself more than others. It's just that normally all our caring goes outward. We forget about our own needs. So how can I balance my needs with those of others or those of my work? How can I come up with a win win solution? And so remember, it's just a simple process of including ourself in the circle of humanity, thinking my needs count too. So in this case, so I think what maybe I need is maybe I need more rest, for instance. Okay, common humanity might be okay. How do I balance how many hours of sleep I get maybe with the work I need to do, which is also important to me. And then the kindness is really validating the fact that you are worthy of getting your needs met. You know, as an act of kindness. For instance, getting the hours of sleep you need comes from your own heart as a way of literally caring for yourself through the physical rest you get through sleep. So you can actually break it down in these three parts. So remember, it's being aware of what it is you need or at least trying to figure out some sense of what it is I need. Common humanity means balancing my own needs with other needs, which are also valid. And then the kindness is making a commitment to giving yourself what you need. And so these three steps help get a little more specific about how we might meet our needs.
- [43:48]
Dan Harris
Thank you for that. Coming up, Kristen and Chris talk about more tools for dealing with burnout. How to draw appropriate boundaries with your boss. And we talk about the inner critic and why we kind of evolved to kick our own asses. This show is sponsored by BetterHelp. What do you want your 2025 story to be? Every January brings 365 blank pages waiting to be filled in 2025. Maybe you're ready for a plot twist, or maybe there's part of your story you've been wanting to revise. Life isn't about resolutions that fade by January. It's about picking up the pen and becoming the author of your own life. Think of therapy as your editorial partner in this process, helping you write new chapters and create the meaningful story that you deserve to live. I have benefited enormously from therapy in my own life, and I really do think of the therapists I've worked with, including the one I'm working with now, as my editorial partners in this process. And I've been thinking a lot about what I want out of this current year. A lot of it involves the status quo. I love doing this show and I love danharris.com, but I also have other goals, like finally finishing my book. So I'll be talking about all of this with my therapist. If you want access to a diverse network of more than 30,000 credentialed therapists with a wide range range of specialties, check out BetterHelp. You can easily switch therapists anytime at no extra cost. Write your story with better help. Visit betterhelp.com happier today to get 10% off your first month. That's betterhelp H-E-L-P.com happier with a new year comes a chance to reimagine ourselves for the better and more importantly, reimagine our closets. This year I am resolving to refresh my look with some quality pieces and stay on budget. And I can do that thanks to our friends over at Quint. I'm going to be getting on a plane later today and I'm going to be wearing my Quint pants. These new Quint pants I ordered, they're black, they're stylish, and one of the things I love about them is that they're loose fitting. You know, they look like they have a nice fit, but the the material is kind of flexible so it doesn't, you know, pinch the belly. I don't know about you, but I really like that. I don't want to suffer for fashion too much. I also am a huge fan of their Mongolian cashmere sweaters, which start at 60 bucks. I think I've got three of those. However you choose to refresh yourself this year, all Quint's pieces are priced 50 to 80% less than similar brands. If you want to upgrade your closet this year without the upgraded price tag, go to quint.com happier for 300365 day returns plus free shipping on that order. That's Q U I n c e.com Happier to get free shipping and 365 day returns quints.com Happier the Happier Meditation app has a new course. It's called Even Now Love A Prescription for Connection. It is taught by Joseph Goldstein and others and it invites you to pause, breathe, and choose love, even in life's messiest moments. With tools to strengthen connection, rethink relationships as a lab for love, and build self compassion, it's a useful way to approach the new year with clarity and care. You can download the Happier Meditation app and check out Even Now Love. Today I want to go back to fierce self compassion for a second. Chris, you were saying earlier about, you know, having a a talk with the boss. I could imagine a lot of people listening, saying, and hopefully these, these do not include the people who work for me, but maybe they do fit into this category. I could imagine a lot of people saying, well, my boss is an unreconstructed asshole and there's just no way I can talk to this boss and he or she or they are dumping unreasonable amount of work on me and I don't feel like I have the power to be fiercely self compassionate here. Chris, what do you. I'm sure this isn't the first time you're hearing that. How do you usually respond in these cases?
- [47:52]
Christopher Germer
Yeah, so first, just to honor that, sometimes we simply don't have the power to do that. And when that is so, you know, that's a significant source of burnout and we need to be able to acknowledge that, to feel that, to be kind to ourselves in the context of that and then also to make some choices. So that can also be the case. However, the question that you're asking, perhaps Dan, is how does one draw a boundary with the boss or push back in a way that is ideally effective and doesn't cause more negative consequences than we would want? And that's a really interesting question. I think it comes back to what Kristin was talking about, which is balancing tender and fierceness, compassion. So tender compassion is often a sense of kind of knowing yourself and also authenticity. So what that means is if we're going to draw a line in the sand, it has to come from a pretty clear, solid place of self knowledge and self awareness and actually what we need and can do and can't do so. So in other words, from a kind of inner strength and that tender self compassion can give us a way of acknowledging what is real. And then the question is, how do we express ourselves in such a way that might be optimally useful? And to do that it's really helpful to think of how to do it, comparison compassionately, even toward our boss. So what does compassion mean? Compassion often means to see behind the surface, behind the demands, behind the gruffness. Maybe your boss is struggling to make a deadline or something. And then you can say something like, I know you really want me to work till 8 o'clock tonight. In fact, I understand that you even need me to do this. And this is really important for you. In other words, this is compassion because you are seeing into your boss. But I absolutely must go home today and I am so, you know, by dinner time because blah, blah, blah. And I do hope that this will not throw any static in our relationship. In other words, how can we actually say this compassionately? First we need to drop into our own experience, know what is real for us, and then express ourselves in a way that acknowledges the person we're talking to but doesn't abandon ourselves. And this often ends up in very skillful expression.
- [50:55]
Dan Harris
So just to draw a line under that There may be bosses who are just. The situation's unworkable and we should acknowledge that. But even with some difficult bosses, it may be possible to communicate in a way that takes their feelings into account while simultaneously asserting our own needs.
- [51:15]
Christopher Germer
Beautiful. Thank you. I wish I said it as clearly as you.
- [51:21]
Kristen Neff
Yeah, I think, Dan, sometimes the problem is some people just to get along with their boss just stop thinking about their needs. They just subordinate themselves because it's easier to get along that way. And so what self compassion says is, well, maybe I can't change the situation, maybe I can't even get my boss to see reason. But at least I'm not going to internalize the idea that somehow my needs are less worthy. My needs are important. I have the right to get them met. In this particular situation, maybe it's not possible, but if I can kind of confirm and validate the fact that my needs are important, then when there is an opportunity to do something differently, including maybe getting a different job, I'm going to do that. That so again, really making sure that you don't subordinate your own needs or fall into the trap of thinking that somehow you are less important than other people because you aren't.
- [52:14]
Dan Harris
Another trick I've heard in this regard and trick is I'm using that semifacetiously. But another move I've heard in this regard is that when a boss asks you to do something to give the boss an inventory of. Okay, let's say I have X, Y and Z things on my plate if I add this in and some of those are going to have to be delayed. So let's work together to figure out the priorities.
- [52:39]
Christopher Germer
Yeah, that's great. But then the question from a self compassion point of view is what actually puts us in the spacious, equanimous frame of mind that we can actually say that. And usually there's a lot of self respect, as Kristin is saying, as well as respect of your boss.
- [52:57]
Kristen Neff
And you said you liked the data, Dan, I actually did some research looking at how people, self compassionate people resolved conflicts. And not so much with bosses, but with other people, important people in your life. And what we found is that self compassionate people, they don't prioritize their own needs nor do they subordinate them. They tend to try to work out compromise solutions that take everyone's needs into account. And so if you can do that, you're more likely to come up with a good solution.
- [53:26]
Dan Harris
I mean, that goes to another finding that I believe we've discussed in prior episodes, which is that that self compassion is Often correlated with, if not the source of, other compassion.
- [53:39]
Kristen Neff
Yeah. So do some people say you have to be self compassionate before you can be compassionate to others? That's actually not true empirically because in fact most people are genuinely compassionate to others and treat themselves like crap. So it's not the case that you have to be self compassionate before you can be compassionate to others. But what we do know is that when you start to be more self compassionate, it does two things. A, this is really important, especially for a conversation. It allows you to be compassionate to others without burning out. So in other words, if you give and you give and you give to others and you don't resource yourself, you are going to be drained. So it actually increases our ability to sustain being compassionate to others. And we also know, for instance, with those nurses and doctors we work with in the children's hospital, we train them in self compassion, that it actually did increase their compassion for others again because they're resourcing themselves. So it's not like it's a necessary first step, but it really facilitates the ability to maintain and also grow your compassion for others.
- [54:48]
Dan Harris
I'm jumping around through this fascinating book, but I'm gonna go back to chapter seven, which is a little bit earlier in the book than the stuff we're talking about. Chris, let me throw this to you in chapter seven. The chapter itself is entitled when self Compassion Feels bad. And you talk about the notion of backdraft. Can you say more about all of this?
- [55:08]
Christopher Germer
Oh yeah. Well, this is my favorite subject, so thanks for asking, Dan. I actually discovered backdraft through my work as a clinical psychologist. Because what I realized is that but when we are really kind to somebody else, their defenses kind of drop down and then they start to reveal what is hidden inside. And often traumas, and that can be overwhelming for people. But the term backdraft is a firefighter term. I think many people have heard it. If you go into a burning building and you're about to open a door, you want to be super careful if you open the door. Because if you open it and the oxygen goes in and there's a fire behind there, the fire will intensify. Can be pretty dangerous. But a similar thing can happen with self compassion. All of our hearts are hot with suffering. And when we open the door of our hearts and the love goes in, the compassion goes in, then the pain comes out. And when the pain comes out, we often think, oh my God, I'm doing something wrong. I can't even do self compassion. What's the matter with me. But what's really important to know is that this process is a intrinsic part of the transformation process of self compassion. That is to say, we're basically stirring the pot. You know, we're opening the door, the pain comes out. But then we can meet this pain with compassion and with mindfulness and with understanding, probably in a way that it was not addressed in the past. And that's why it got kind of stuck inside us somewhere. So self compassion gets things moving, but it gets things moving in a way that can sometimes be confusing. There's a little saying that kind of reflects this whole situation, that is that love reveals everything unlike itself. So if I start to say to myself something like, oh, may I accept myself just as I am? Inevitably I'll think of the reverse, which is what is unacceptable about me? Or how was I treated unacceptably in the past? And when this comes out, we're likely to kind of, you know, freak out and blame ourselves. But it's actually really important part of the healing process. It's not that suffering is being created. It is being uncovered, and it is available for healing.
- [57:37]
Dan Harris
Right. And I can imagine some people thinking, well, why would I want to shake things up in this way? And. And I would imagine your answer is, it's in there anyway, controlling you from the corners of your mind in ways that are unpredictable. So you might as well let it come out and create a container to deal with it that is healthy.
- [57:56]
Christopher Germer
I think that's a courageous approach. I mean, it is true, Dan, that some people are just not in a place in their lives where anything, you know, more is tolerable. But that doesn't mean then, Dan, that, you know, self compassion is not possible. Then we need to shift more toward behavioral self compassion from mind training. You know, a lot of this reconstructive, transformative work is happening more in the mind training aspect. But we can also be compassionate to ourselves behaviorally. You know, in other words, when we're suffering and we might isolate ourselves and blame ourselves, what would it be like if I actually reached out and spoke to a friend and we listened to some music together? That's self compassion. It's behavioral self compassion, and it's also very safe. So I guess what I'd like to say is that actually people don't have to step up to this. They can also step back a little and still be compassionate to themselves and still learn self compassion by doing it behaviorally.
- [59:01]
Dan Harris
See, I just want to unpack that and make sure people get it. There are forms of self Compassion that one could do as a kind of mind training, maybe even informal meditation. And that can shake loose some difficult stuff. If people listening are trauma survivors or in a very delicate, you know, in deep grief, they may want to titrate this very carefully. In which case a kind of behavioral self compassion, meaning I'm going to choose to do things in my life that will make me happier, more comfortable, more resourced, like hanging out with a friend, et cetera, et cetera. That latter category of what you're calling behavioral self compassion might be the better call in those cases.
- [59:46]
Christopher Germer
Exactly. Thank you for framing it so clearly. And it also circles back to what we were talking about before Dan, when we were discussing what do I need? You know, in other words, what do I need to comfort myself, soothe myself. Often the answer to those questions is behavioral. It's what we call self compassion in daily life. And this is not a lesser practice. It's actually what we can do most of the day because we're not going to be sitting in meditation for many hours on end, but we are going to be walking around and talking to people and being ourselves. Can we do that with self compassion? And when it comes to burnout, this is especially important because we're not meditating while we're at work. But can we care for ourselves behaviorally in a self compassionate way at work? What does that look like? This is how self compassion can really get integrated into our lives.
- [60:44]
Dan Harris
Kristin, the book asks a question that I get all the time, which is why do we have this racing inner voice? Why do we have an inner critic? How did we evolve to kick our own asses so assiduously? What say you?
- [61:02]
Kristen Neff
Yeah, so I love to say to people, please don't beat yourself up for beating yourself up. Because it's largely how our brains evolved. In evolution, when we experience a personal threat, we go into the fight, flight or freeze response. And if you think about it, whether we make a mistake, whether we feel overwhelmed, we notice something about ourselves we don't like, or just something is difficult in our lives, we feel threatened and so we go into fight flight or freeze. But of course we turn that response inward because we're the problem. And so we fight ourselves with criticism. You know, just because some part of us thinks we'll, we'll stay safe, we'll change our behavior, or maybe we'll, you know, criticize ourself before others people do and it won't hurt so bad. Or we flee into a sense of shame and isolation. You know, we kind of hang our heads and to hide from the perceived judgments of other group members. Or we freeze and we get stuck and we ruminate. You know, we just think, well, maybe if I just don't do anything and go over the problem for the 57th time, the solution will appear. And so it's totally natural. It's the way our brain evolved to keep safe. Now when your good friend has something happen, like face a challenge or makes a mistake, you don't feel so personally threatened. So you're actually able to tap into a second system which is also natural. It's called the care system. But that actually evolved more to take care of others, you know, to take care of our family members or other in group members. But so in other words, when other people are under stress, it feels natural to be there for them, to care for them, to help them. Whereas when we're the ones in distress, it feels a little more natural to go into fight, flight or freeze with ourself. So we are again doing a hack. So both systems are natural. The care system and you might say the fight, flight or freeze system. So we have to consciously try to move away from fight, flight and freeze when the threat is within us and move into the care system and make that u turn toward ourself. You know, it makes sense evolutionarily, but it's not so great for our happiness. So that's why we need to bring a little intentionality in here so we can build new habits.
- [63:12]
Dan Harris
Okay, so that leads me to another question which you also cover in the book. And Chris, I'll throw this to you. How do we remember to do this? Because I think it's very easy to listen to a great conversation like this one or read a great book like yours, you've written many of them. And then we just get sucked back into our daily habits. So you have a whole thing here about creating a reminder. Can you hold forth on that?
- [63:38]
Christopher Germer
Yeah. So I think this is probably the most important aspect of self compassion, which is to remember to do it. In fact, people who take the self compassion course, when we've asked them, months later, you know, what did you get out of this? They said, well, I got permission to be kind to myself. And I was reminded to be kind to myself, to be compassionate. So reminding is really important. So how do we remember? So in the book, early on in the second or third chapter, you know, we talk about just putting stickums around the house that are just little reminders. So the invitation to be self compassionate becomes kind of omnipresent. But there's another aspect to this which kind of runs through the whole book. And that is we are way more likely to remember a practice which is relevant and which works. You said earlier on Dan, you were a skeptic about self compassion, but then when you actually gave it a go, you thought, wow, this works. You know, I can put a hand on my heart and it changes my physiology. Actually when we have a solution to a real problem, we remember. And so this book has 21 tools but. But they're not all going to be helpful. If we put stick EMS around the house for all 21 tools, we'll probably just get dizzy. The main thing is to do a proper assessment of what is the source of burnout in my life. So if it is, well, I can't say no. Then remind yourself what it takes to set a boundary. If we decide my problems, I'm too perfectionistic, huh? Then maybe I need to address shame. Or if we think I just don't enjoy my life enough, that's why I'm burning out, then maybe go into the chapter on savoring and gratitude. Or if somebody says, you know this, my job is just meaningless to me. Ah, maybe I need to affirm my core values, things like that. So when we know what it is that is bugging us at work, probably in this book you will find a tool and then it's easy to remind yourself because it works. And you can even then add some reminders in some form or another so that give you an extra boost.
- [66:07]
Dan Harris
Coming up, Kristen and Chris talk about more tools for dealing with perfectionism without letting go of high standards. And they also talk about the concept of being a compassionate mess. As some of you may know, exercise is a significant part of my life. I don't think we need to overdo exercise, but the evidence is very clear that consistent exercise has all sorts of benefits for your brain and the rest of your body, not to mention your psychology and your relationships. Which is why I'm happy that Anytime Fitness is a sponsor of this show. Anytime Fitness has all the equipment you need to reach your goals. Along with expert coaching to help you optimize your personalized training, nutrition and recovery plan. I have found personally working with expert coaches to be really helpful in my own fitness. So expert coaching is incredibly important. Anytime fitness gets that you train for your life to be a stronger, more confident, more badass version of yourself yourself. They get it because that's what they're all about. They're here with the expertise you need when you need it to hit your milestones and truly live better longer. At Anytime Fitness, you get more than machines. You get a personalized plan in gym and in app coaching, support and a welcoming community. Get started@antime fitness.com it's resolution time and we all know that resolutions can be diabolically difficult. Habit Change Change is hard. One of the best ways to make a resolution stick is to make it easy. If you lower the bar, you're much more likely to do whatever it is your goal is. One of the best ways to make it easy is to make it automatic. Which brings me to one of our sponsors today, Acorns. Acorns makes it easy to start automatically saving and investing so your money has a chance to to grow for you and your kids and your retirement. You don't need to be an expert. Acorns will recommend a diversified portfolio that fits you and your money goals. You also don't need to be rich. Acorns lets you invest with the spare money you've got right now. You can start with $5 or even just spare change and you don't need a ton of time. You can create your Acorns account and start investing in just five minutes. You don't need to feel like financial wellness is impossible. Acorns gives you small, simple steps to get you and your money on track. Basically, Acorns does the hard part so you can give your money a chance to grow. Head to acorns.com happier or download the Acorns app to start saving and investing for your future today. Paid non client endorsement compensation provides incentive to positively promote Acorns tier 3 compensation provided investing involves risk. Acorns Advisors LLC and SEC registered investment advisor view important disclosures@acorns.com tapier you talked about perfectionism. Let me ask you about that, Kristen. There's a chapter here called the Perfection Sinkhole, which I love. And then there's an accompanying practice called letting go of the need to be perfect. Could you say a little bit about all of this?
- [69:20]
Kristen Neff
I can imagine that might resonate with you, Dan speaking to an ex talking.
- [69:26]
Dan Harris
About X. I don't know. I don't know.
- [69:29]
Kristen Neff
So having high standards for yourself, wanting to be the best, is absolutely nothing wrong with that. The problem with perfectionists is you start tying your sense of worth to getting it right, to getting it perfect. That's a problem because you are still a human being even if you're a very high achieving human being and you will make mistakes. And so if instead of seeing those mistakes as an opportunity to learn and grow and you start seeing them as an indictment of your self worth. Then what happens is, first of all, you'll never be good enough, right, because you are a human being. And then when you come up a little bit short, you create more stress on yourself. You judge yourself, you feel less competent, which makes it a little more likely that you're gonna make mistakes in the future. And that's when the sinkhole starts, right? I mean, you can look at it at some of these top level athletes who are perfectionists. If they make a mistake, sometimes they just fall apart. Like you can see in football players. Sometimes in the championship game, some quarterbacks say, okay, I missed that throw, well I'll just do better next time. And some have the thought, oh no, what does this say about me? And then they kind of fall apart. So that's why self compassion is so good for perfectionists. Because it says, yes, you can have high standards, go for it. But your standards and whether or not you achieve them have nothing to do with your self worth. Your worth is unconditional. You're worthy just because you're a human being who feels and who loves and who, you know, who wants to be happy and safe in their life. And then any sort of achievement you create is just because it comes from love. It comes from the desire to express your full self and not in order to gain a sense of self worth. And so making that shift is huge. I'm gonna give you a little data again, Dan. We actually published a study last year with elite NCAA athletes. So these are top level college athletes in the usa and you know, you might say they're perfectionists because they have to be at the top of their game if they wanna go on to the pros or keep their scholarships. And we taught them to be self compassionate about their failures and setbacks in training routines. And so we got them again to kind of disentangle their sense of their worthiness as a person from winning the game, from just, yeah, I want to win the game because I care and this is what I love to do. And we found that it actually increased their athletic performance. So again, you don't have to give up your high standards, you just have to change what those meeting those standards means about your self worth. It has nothing to do with your self worth. You do it out of love, not because you're afraid you won't be good enough if you don't achieve.
- [72:08]
Dan Harris
Can you describe the practice that we might do that would help us get better at this?
- [72:12]
Kristen Neff
So one of the ways we can use self compassion to work with Perfectionism is. We can just imagine, what are we afraid of if we fail or we come up a little short against our goals? What am I afraid it says about me? Am I afraid I'll be a laughingstock? Will I feel some shame in some way? There's often a strong vein of shame and perfectionism. We're ashamed if we don't get it right. And then. So you can actually just think about what this might bring up for you and then actually be compassionate about this fear. You know, imagine if you had a friend who said, I would be so ashamed, I'd feel so bad about myself if I didn't win this championship game or if I didn't get the A on the test. And you would probably say to your friend, hey, your worth does not depend on getting it right. You're great just as you are regardless of whether or not you win the game or you get that A. So you can do something similar for yourself, right? Just imagine you say something to yourself like, you know, you're doing the best you can. All humans make mistakes. This is how we learn and grow. So, in other words, we honor the anxiety and the stress that comes up when we imagine that we may not be perfect. But then we remind ourselves that our worth comes from being an imperfect human being, not from getting it right all the time. And then when we can really take that message in, that's when we start to let go of the perfectionism without necessarily letting go of our high standards.
- [73:43]
Dan Harris
Nice. We only have a few minutes left. So, Chris, let me throw the final question to you. The book ends with an exhortation to become, and this is a quote, a compassionate mess. What do you mean by that?
- [74:00]
Christopher Germer
I think if we're completely honest, we could say that most of us have a kind of messy aspect. If we look at humanity right now on this planet, things are kind of a mess. So a mess really means our humanity. You know, we are, you know, often confused, suffering, uncertain. Being human is kind of a dodgy undertaking. You know, we're vulnerable beings, and so that's what a mess is. But the invitation is to be a compassionate mess. By the way, this phrase comes from a meditation teacher in Scotland named Rob Nairn. So a compassionate mess means that we hold our humanity just as it is right here and right now in a compassionate embrace that we're not trying to get rid of who we are. We're not trying to be somebody else. Jack Kornfield said it really beautifully. He said, the point is not to perfect ourselves, but to perfect our Love, to perfect our love. That means when things go wrong in our lives, including with burnout, that our first response is kindness. Our first response is compassion. And many people when they hear this, you know, they hearken back to the old misgivings about self compassion, like, oh, it's just going to make me complacent or I'm going to be like this for the rest of my life, you know, horror of horrors. But actually that doesn't happen. Carl Rogers says, the curious paradox is that when I accept myself just as I am, change seems to come about almost unnoticed. And so this is the invitation when we suffer, particularly when we suffer with burnout, can we turn toward ourselves just as we are, Embrace ourselves just as we are in compassion, and see what happens?
- [76:10]
Kristen Neff
Can I add something to that? Dan, too? One of the reasons Chris and I love that phrase is what's also happening is a kind of foreground background shift. So normally the mess is all we're thinking about. You know, in the case of burnout, we're just mainly thinking about how burned out we are, how incompetent we are, how exhausted we are, and that really takes up most of our attention. But when your goal is to bring compassion to the mess, what happens is more of your attention and your awareness is filled with compassion itself, you know, with feelings of loving, connected presence, which is another way of describing the three components of self compassion. So the mess is still there, but more. Even more salient is the love that's holding the mess. And that loving, connected presence actually feels really good. And you can find even in a moment of messiness, of distress, of exhaustion, of pain, you can actually find some fulfillment, some peace, some connectedness, some love just by focusing on the compassion part of holding the mess as opposed to just the mess itself. It's really quite remarkable, the shift that makes.
- [77:25]
Dan Harris
I buy it.
- [77:26]
Christopher Germer
Yeah, it's alchemy.
- [77:27]
Dan Harris
Alchemy.
- [77:28]
Christopher Germer
Yeah, it's alchemy.
- [77:30]
Dan Harris
Right. But it's so not obvious. What we want to do is avoid our suffering and the suffering of others by shopping or gambling or drinking or swiping or distracting or binging or whatever. And yet somehow tuning into it internally or externally feels better. Before I let you go, just please plug the new book and anything else you want us to know about.
- [78:00]
Kristen Neff
Yeah, so the new book is called Mindful Self Compassion for Burnout. Tools to help you heal and recharge when you're rung up by stress. It's actually an easy read. We did that intentionally. It's small, it's light it's funny because the last thing you need to do when you're burnt out is to read like a heavy tome of a book. It's also very action based. Each chapter has a little story in it and it has a tool that you can use to help you with burnout. And also just something I would like to mention, you mentioned the fact that it's hard to remember to be self compassionate. And one of the ways to make it easier is by connecting to others who have similar goals as you. So I've actually recently created something called the Self Compassion Community, which is a subscription model, but where people can talk with each other, share with each other, come to live events where we're discussing compassion. And that's an easy way to remember your goal when you're surrounding yourself with other people who have a similar goal. And maybe you forget, but they remind you of it. So that's something that I've been doing since the beginning of the year. And I'm really excited about bringing people together and the shared intention of bringing more self compassion into the world.
- [79:14]
Dan Harris
Yeah.
- [79:14]
Christopher Germer
And I can perhaps add some other resources on this subject are the previous books that Kristen and I have. But also we created the center for Mindful Self Compassion, which has many different offerings. There are over 3500 mindful self compassion teachers around the world. There are many opportunities to connect, even free offerings through the center for Mindful Self Compassion. The thing to think about, frankly, is that even if you don't directly address burnout with self compassion, as we grow in self Compassion, the chances are really high that you will in fact be less likely to burn up. And for those who are interested in additional materials from this book, like a sample chapter and so forth, you can go to Guilford Press and plug in Mindful Self Compassion for burnout. And I'm also happy to say that I spent 20 hours in a recording studio. I had the privilege of actually creating the audiobook for this particular book. And so that's also an option for those who are interested in going deeper. Thank you.
- [80:26]
Dan Harris
All right, well, thank you both. Really appreciate it. It was awesome to have you on and thank you for your work.
- [80:30]
Kristen Neff
Thanks, Dan.
- [80:31]
Christopher Germer
Thank you, Dan. Thanks for all you're doing and for this.
- [80:38]
Dan Harris
Thanks again to Kristen and Chris. Just to say I'll be a guest speaker in conversation with Kristen on March 5th in partnership with her Self Compassion Community. We'll continue to explore the role of self compassion in my own life and how I integrate it into my work and lots of other areas, my relationships lots of stuff. I'll leave a link to Kristen's Self Compassion community in the show notes. And before I go, you know what's coming. I want to thank everybody who works so hard to make this show a reality. Our producers are Tara Anderson, Caroline Keenan and Eleanor Vasily are recording and engineering. Engineering is handled by the great folks over at Pod People. Lauren Smith is our production manager, Marissa Schneiderman is our senior producer, DJ Cashmere is our Executive producer and Nick Thorburn of the Van Islands wrote our theme if you like 10% happier and I hope you do, you can listen early and ad free right now by joining Wondery plus plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. Prime members can listen ad free on Amazon Music. Before you go, tell us about yourself by filling out a short survey@wondery.com survey.
- [81:58]
Kristen Neff
Being an actual royal is never about finding your happy ending. But the worst part is if they step out of line or fall in love with the wrong person, it changes.
- [82:06]
Dan Harris
The course of history.
- [82:09]
Kristen Neff
I'm Arisha Skidmore.
- [82:10]
Dan Harris
William Williams and I'm Brooke Zifrin.
- [82:12]
Kristen Neff
We've been telling the stories of the rich and famous on the hit Wondery show, Even the Rich and talking about the latest celebrity news on Rich and Daily. We're going all over the world on our new show, Even the Royals.
- [82:24]
Dan Harris
We'll be diving headfirst into the lives.
- [82:26]
Kristen Neff
Of the world's kings, queens and all the wannabes in their orbit throughout history. Think succession meets the crown meets real life. We're going to pull back the gilded curtain and show how royal status this might be bright and shiny, but it comes at the expense of, well, everything else. Like your freedom, your privacy and sometimes even your head. Follow even the Royals on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to even the royals early and ad free right now by joining Wondery. On January 5, 2024, an Alaska Airlines.
- [83:00]
Dan Harris
Door plug tore away mid flight, leaving.
- [83:02]
Kristen Neff
A gaping hole in the side of.
- [83:04]
Christopher Germer
A plane that carried 171 passengers.
- [83:07]
Dan Harris
This heart stopping incident was just the.
- [83:09]
Kristen Neff
Latest in a string of crises surrounding.
- [83:11]
Dan Harris
The aviation manufacturing giant Boeing.
- [83:14]
Christopher Germer
In the past decade, Boeing has been involved in a series of damning scandals.
- [83:18]
Dan Harris
And deadly crashes that have chipped away.
- [83:20]
Christopher Germer
At its once sterling reputation.
- [83:22]
Dan Harris
At the center of it all, the.
- [83:23]
Kristen Neff
737 Max, the latest season of Business.
- [83:26]
Christopher Germer
Wars explores how Boeing Boeing, once the.
- [83:29]
Kristen Neff
Gold standard of aviation engineering, descended into a nightmare of safety concerns and public mistrust.
- [83:35]
Dan Harris
The decisions, denials and devastating consequences bringing.
- [83:38]
Christopher Germer
The titan to its knees. And what, if anything, can save the company's reputation now?
- [83:44]
Kristen Neff
Follow Business wars on the Wondery app.
- [83:46]
Christopher Germer
Or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [83:47]
Kristen Neff
You can binge Business the Unraveling of Boeing early and ad free right now on Wondery plus.