Podcast Summary: The Science Of Getting Out Of Your Head

Podcast: 10% Happier with Dan Harris
Guest: Annie Murphy Paul
Release Date: October 20, 2025
Episode Theme: Exploring the science and practical strategies of “the extended mind”—thinking that goes beyond the brain, engaging the body, surroundings, and relationships to improve cognition.

Main Theme & Purpose

Dan Harris interviews science writer and TED speaker Annie Murphy Paul about her book, The Extended Mind: The Power of Thinking Outside the Brain. Together, they explore the transformative idea that intelligence is not confined to our brains; our best thinking draws upon our bodies, environments, and interactions with other people. The episode is a rich mix of cutting-edge cognitive science, practical tips, and tools for getting “out of your head.”

Detailed Breakdown

1. What Is the “Extended Mind”?

[03:47]

• Thesis: “If you want to upgrade your mind, you need to use more than just your head.” (Dan Harris)
• Origins: Annie describes being “very much in my head” as a writer, but discovering the concept of the extended mind while seeking a truly transformative idea in the science of learning.
• Key Source: The 1998 philosophy article by Andy Clark and David Chalmers, “The Extended Mind,” asks: “Where does the mind stop and the rest of the world begin?”
• Quote [07:41]:

  “The mind does not stop at the standard demarcations of skin and skull, they argued. Rather, it is more accurately viewed as an extended system, a coupling of biological organism and external resources.” – (Dan reads from Annie’s book, quoting Clark & Chalmers)

Parallel with Buddhism
[09:27]

• Dan observes the overlap with Buddhist concepts of the self as non-solid and non-separate, an idea Annie says “rhymes” with the extended mind thesis.

“It’s not just an idea about how to think better. It’s about how to live better or how to live in accord with who we really are.” – Annie Murphy Paul [09:54]

2. Thinking with the Body

[11:12]

• Cultural Split: Our society traditionally separates the “pure, cerebral mind” from the “animal” body.
• Interoception: The capacity to sense internal bodily states (heartbeat, tension, butterflies) carries essential information for decision-making.
• Practical Tool: Regular body scans increase interoceptive awareness, leading to sharper intuition and better choices.

“All the while, there’s this continual stream of information that’s arising inside our bodies... that flow of internal sensations carries a lot of information, a lot of wisdom that we don’t have access to when we don’t pay attention to it.” – Annie Murphy Paul [12:59]

• Intuition & Bias:

  • Gut feelings and intuition can be powerful—but both intellect and body are subject to bias.
  • Keeping an "interoceptive journal" to track bodily cues against outcomes can help calibrate your intuition.
  • Quote [16:15]:

    “Just as we shouldn’t give undue preference to our thinking mind, we should also not give undue preference and credulity to the signals our body might be sending to us. Because both...can be biased and wrong.” – Dan Harris

• Movement & Cognition:

  • Movement breaks, walking, dancing and even fidgeting improve cognitive function, creativity, and problem-solving.
  • Our ancestors evolved to think and move.
  • Language reflects this connection (“I’m stuck,” “Ideas are flowing,” etc.).
  • Quotes:
    • “The more we can make our thinking work resemble those activities that the brain really evolved for...the better we’ll be able to think.” – Annie Murphy Paul [36:21]
    • “I am very fidgety...when I’m writing...I am at a standing desk, I have a tennis ball or a stress ball on my desk...I feel in my body that I need to move in order to address these seemingly insoluble problems...” – Dan Harris [20:42]

• Fidgeting:

  • Fidgeting and “micro-movements” help regulate arousal and focus, especially valuable to adults and children with attention challenges.
  • Schools and meetings should consider “activity-permissive” environments, allowing standing desks, wiggle stools, etc.

“Fidgeting is actually a way to very finely regulate and modulate our level of arousal and alertness...” – Annie Murphy Paul [22:26]

• Gestures:
  • Gesturing aids in both personal thinking and clearer communication; audiences remember gestured points better.
  • “Gesture is our first language and it never goes away...it’s also an extension of our own thinking process.” [25:44]
  • “Let your hands share the burden.” – Dan Harris [28:21]

3. Thinking with Surroundings

[31:12]

• Brains are Context-Sensitive: Unlike computers, our mental functioning changes with our environment.
• Nature’s Power: Time outside calms, replenishes mental resources, and supports better thinking.
  • “One of the quickest and easiest ways of replenishing [attention] is simply to spend time outside in that diffuse attentional mode.” – Annie Murphy Paul [33:40]
• Design & Identity:
  • Surround yourself with “evocative objects” — reminders of identity and belonging — to boost focus and purpose.
• Spatializing Ideas:
  • Use whiteboards, post-its, and physical space to organize thoughts. Getting ideas “onto space” takes advantage of the strengths our brains evolved for (navigating 3D space, manipulating objects).
  • Artists and teachers “instinctively get” these strategies, using hands-on, spatial methods for creativity and learning.

4. Thinking with Relationships

[42:23]

“Our particular kind of human intelligence benefits by making as many loops as possible” – Annie Murphy Paul [48:26]

• Cultural Critique: Western culture’s individualism overlooks how the mind is fundamentally collaborative.
• From Novices to Experts:
  • Experts must unpack their “automatic” knowledge to help novices learn—“cognitive apprenticeship.”
• Thinking with Peers:
  • Harness debate, argument, storytelling, and teaching peers to activate social learning and cognition.

“There are times when I need to run something by somebody, and I’ve sometimes said that I don’t know what I think until I’ve talked about it with my wife.” – Dan Harris [48:10]

• Group Intelligence:
  • Group work (despite its pitfalls, e.g. “groupthink”) is essential to solving modern problems.
  • Foster “groupiness” via synchrony (walking together, shared rituals), open communication, and explicit modeling of thought processes (“leaving traces”).
  • Transactive memory systems: Know who in your group has what expertise, turning the team into a cognitive “superorganism.”

5. The Challenge of “Extension Inequality”

[54:45]

• Access to the resources that extend the mind—freedom to move, green spaces, mentoring, collaboration—is unequally distributed.
• “If we are going to take seriously this idea...then we need to pay more attention to the fact that not everyone has equal access to those raw materials.” – Annie Murphy Paul [54:47]
• Calls for rethinking how we measure intelligence (test scores, etc.) and better supporting equitable access to these cognitive resources.

6. Returning to Childlike Learning

[57:04]

• Young children naturally engage their whole bodies, environments, and relationships in learning. Adults are encouraged to reclaim this approach for richer, more effective thinking.

“We need to return to that spirit of including our whole selves in how we think and how we learn, that we think is natural for young kids, but actually would benefit all of us.” – Annie Murphy Paul [57:57]

Notable Quotes & Insights

• “We are creatures with bodies and relationships, and we’re embedded in physical surroundings, and yet the life that so many of us live...I’m literally like a head in a box.” – Annie Murphy Paul [09:54]
• “The best thing to do is to collect evidence and then try as best we can as biased creatures, to evaluate the evidence of what those two modes are bringing us.” – Annie Murphy Paul [17:28]
• “Fidgeting can be a way to very finely modulate not just our alertness and our arousal, but also our mental state.” – Annie Murphy Paul [22:26]
• “It actually takes a fair amount of mental bandwidth to keep ourselves from doing [micro-movements].” – Annie Murphy Paul [23:14]
• “You want to be encouraging ourselves and others to gesture as much as possible.” – Annie Murphy Paul [26:42]
• “There’s a lot of hurdles for a novice to learn from an expert...involves...making the expert’s knowledge more accessible.” – Annie Murphy Paul [43:56]

Key Timestamps

• [03:47] — Annie introduces the extended mind concept and origins
• [11:12] — Practical strategies for thinking with the body: interoception, intuition, and movement
• [21:52] — Fidgeting and micro-movements as cognitive aids
• [25:44] — The power of gesture in thinking and communicating
• [31:12] — How surroundings influence thinking: being outdoors, design, spatial tools
• [36:21] — Getting ideas out of your head and onto space
• [42:23] — Thinking with relationships: learning from experts, peers, and groups
• [50:29] — “Groupiness,” synchronized movement, and building group intelligence
• [54:45] — Extension inequality and unequal access to extended mind resources
• [57:04] — The value of returning to childlike, embodied, social learning

Takeaways & Practical Tips

• Pay attention to bodily sensations (interoception); try a body scan.
• Incorporate movement and fidgeting into work or study routines.
• Use gestures and body language—don’t suppress them, even on Zoom.
• Step outside or bring nature cues into your workspace.
• Externalize ideas with whiteboards, post-its, or physical models.
• Collaborate often: Run ideas by others, seek mentoring or teach peers.
• Foster groupiness through shared rituals, movement, and explicit sharing of mental models.
• Be mindful of access—support environments that enable bodily, spatial, and relational thinking for all.

Book reminder: The Extended Mind: The Power of Thinking Outside the Brain by Annie Murphy Paul
[58:10]

This episode is an invitation to see thinking—and intelligence itself—as a distributed, dynamic process. Annie and Dan offer a wealth of science-backed tools and real talk about getting out of our own heads and using our full human toolkit to solve problems, connect, and live more fully.