← 10% Happier with Dan Harris
10% Happier with Dan Harris
Think You Suck at Meditation? This Conversation Could Help. | Ofosu Jones-Quartey
01:08:22
How to (constructively) lower the bar on your meditation practice. is a meditation teacher, hip-hop artist, and author based in the DC area. He’s a certified teacher with over 20 years of experience bringing mindfulness, self-compassion, and...
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- [00:00]
Dan Harris
Foreign this is the 10% Happier podcast. I'm Dan Harris. Hey gang, how we doing? One of the most common refrains I hear from people who come up to me on the street or at the airport is I suck at meditation. This is what people say to me all the time. I suck at it. I've tried it, but I can't do it. Or I do it once in a while, but I'm no good. If that's you, this episode is for you. My guest today is a prominent meditation teacher who also suffers with obsessive compulsive disorder. In other words, his brain is not necessarily the most hospitable place for meditation. And yet he's been able to find a style of practice and a general attitude about practice that have genuinely helped him. And that I strongly suspect will help you. To be clear, this conversation will be helpful even if you feel like your meditation practice is singing. We're going to get a little bit technical about a form of practice known as Open Awareness, which is something I do myself pretty much every day. My guest is Ofosu Jones Corte. He's a meditation teacher, hip hop artist and author and friend of mine. He's based in the D.C. area. He's the male voice on the balance meditation app and a certified teacher with over 20 years of experience bringing mindfulness and self compassion and creativity to people of all ages. Afosu is also, as I mentioned a moment ago, a hip hop artist. His stage name is Born I. His music has been streamed millions of times. In fact, he's got a new book of his Buddhist inflected lyrics called Lyrical Dharma Hip Hop as Mindfulness. In this conversation we talk about the definition of open awareness, how it differs from a classical concentration practice like focusing on your breath or loving kindness phrases why afosu chose Open Awareness meditation in direct response to his struggles with OCD how you can practice Open Awareness meditation the benefits of a technique called mental noting self compassion and lowering the bar in your meditation practice the relationship between neurodiversity and meditation in general how to depersonalize the experience of your suffering so you're not taking it so personally. We hear some of afosu's music and we talk about the life experiences that inspired it. Just to say, before we dive in here, we've got a guided meditation bespoke to this episode. It's customized to help you take what you learn in this episode and put it to work in your own mind. This meditation comes from Kyra Jewel Lingo, who's our teacher of the month. She's producing Guided Meditations to go with all of our Monday Wednesday episodes this month. This is a new feature of the 10% cinematic universe. Guided meditations to go with our full length episodes is something I've wanted to do for a long time. You may have heard me say we kind of think about this as the lecture lab model. The podcast is the lecture and the guided meditations are the lab. And so today, Kyra Jewell in her meditation is going to teach you open awareness or what is sometimes called choiceless attention. And you'll be learning from an ace. If you want to access these meditations, you gotta sign up@danharris.com, become a paying subscriber. When you sign up, you also get live guided meditation sessions on video with me where I guide a meditation and then take your questions. We've got one coming up tomorrow, in fact, Thursday, August 14th at 4 Eastern. Okay, one last thing. I promise this is the last thing I want to say. It relates to afosu, my guest today. He is actually going to be part of an IRL in person meditation retreat that I'm doing with my pals Stephane Selassie and Jeff Warren, coming up on October 24th through the 26th at the Omega Institute, which is about an hour and a half north of New York City. We call it Meditation Party and we do a bunch of meditation and then we also, you know, hang out, eat good food. It's not like a hardcore retreat. It's more like a party but with a ton of meditation. So Afosa will be there. Jeff Warren, 7 Lassie I'll be there October 24th through 26th and I'll put a link in the show notes. Okay, enough out of me. We'll get started with a Fosi Jones corte right after this. I like nice clothes. I wouldn't call myself a fashion plate. My wife is, but I'm more, you know, I'm not like high style. You won't see me on the runways in Paris. But I like nice clothes and I like to look good, which is important because a lot of my work is on camera. However, I don't like to spend a ton of money, which is why I really love Quint because they've got high quality stuff, you know, like high quality fabrics, classic fits, lightweight layers for warm weather, all at prices that make sense. Everything I've ordered from Quint has been totally solid. And I order real basics like underwear and socks, but also cashmere sweaters. They've got these really comfy pants that I wear a lot. You may have heard me say this before, but it is not uncommon for me to be head to toe Quint, especially when I'm like in the city having meetings. If I'm at home I'm in sweatpants, but often I'll be wearing Quint's cozy wear so I represent at home and out in the world. Quint has closet staples you'll reach for over and over, like cozy cashmere and cotton sweaters from just 50 bucks, breathable flow knit polos and comfortable lightweight pants that somehow work for both weekend hangs and dressed up dinners. Everything from Quint is half the cost of similar brands. By working directly with top artisans and when cutting out the middlemen, Quint gives you luxury pieces without the markup and Quint only works with factories that use safe, ethical and responsible manufacturing practices and premium fabrics and finishes. Keep it classic and cool with long lasting staples. From quint go to quint.comhappier for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. Quint.comhappier very excited because we're about to take our annual two and a half week vacation in Montauk. My favorite, favorite, favorite place in the world. Either we stay at a family home that's been a long time home on my wife's side of the family or if that's not available, we get an Airbnb. We love it because we get to cook for ourselves and we get to stay with a bunch of friends. I love the opportunity especially, especially on a prolonged vacation to spend a bunch of time with family friends. And so that's what we will be doing on our upcoming annual trip to Montauk. We'll be staying in a house with lots of other families and it's the best time of the year. Best time of the year. I love staying in welcoming homes that I book on Airbnb, but in doing so, it got me thinking that, you know, my home could do the same for somebody else. I've put a lot of love, or more accurately, my wife has put a lot of love into the details of this house. So why not help somebody else feel comfortable and taken care of while they're traveling and while I'm away from home. If you think about it, if you host your home on Airbnb while you're traveling, it's a great way to offset some of the costs of your own trip. And that extra income can maybe be put toward an upcoming trip or a splurge you've been eyeing. Home improvement hosting is a pretty cool and unique way to make some money back. Your home might be worth more than you think. Find out how much more@airbnb.com host Afosu Jones Corte. Welcome to the show.
- [07:24]
Afosu Jones Corte
Thank you so much, Dan. Good to be back with you, Hot Sauce.
- [07:28]
Dan Harris
I should have said welcome back to the show. Can you remind everybody why you're calling me Hot Sauce?
- [07:34]
Afosu Jones Corte
Well, the last time I was on, Cara and I were talking, and then Sam, one of the folks you work with, we were just talking about, like, what I. I think we were testing the mic, like, what did I have for breakfast? And I had, like, every eggs with hot sauce. And then it just went into this direction of hot sauce. Then you popped on the screen, and I was like, you know what? I really think an amazing nickname for you, Dan, would be Hot Sauce. And so it's remained in my heart, and it's resurfaced today.
- [08:01]
Dan Harris
I hope it's not giving you heartburn, as Hot Sauce can do.
- [08:04]
Afosu Jones Corte
Oh, no, not at all. It's very heartwarming.
- [08:09]
Dan Harris
My wife would resist my being dubbed Hot Sauce, given that she's always protecting the. The size of my ego.
- [08:17]
Afosu Jones Corte
Well, I'm gonna. I'm gonna hype you up every time, so.
- [08:20]
Dan Harris
All right, I appreciate that for sure. I like being gassed up. So the last time you were on the show, actually, the first time you were on this show, the guy who was producing the episode, DJ Cashmir, asked you, what do you want to talk about? And you said, self compassion. And then this time, the woman who's producing the show is Eleanor, asked you, what do you want to talk about? And you said, still self compassion, but also open awareness meditation.
- [08:44]
Afosu Jones Corte
Yes.
- [08:46]
Dan Harris
So we will definitely talk about self compassion, because I think it's the type of thing that is actually inexhaustibly interesting and useful.
- [08:52]
Afosu Jones Corte
Totally agree.
- [08:53]
Dan Harris
But let's start with open awareness meditation, because I actually don't think we've talked about it that much on this show, and it is a core practice for me, too.
- [09:01]
Afosu Jones Corte
Nice.
- [09:02]
Dan Harris
So maybe let's start with a description of what it is, and then we'll get into why it's so important to you.
- [09:08]
Afosu Jones Corte
Okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah, sure. And shout out to Eleanor. I had a great time just going back and forth and figuring out the best way to have this chat.
- [09:15]
Dan Harris
So, look, I don't want Eleanor to get big ego either.
- [09:18]
Afosu Jones Corte
So, you know, I'm down to hype up the whole squad, shout out to the whole unit that works with Dan, because everyone's awesome. So open awareness has been described In a pithy way as like the meditation of no meditation or choiceless awareness. What it is for me is bringing the meditative quality that we bring to the present moment, but not tying ourselves to an anchor. So in, I would say more traditional mindfulness or vipassana practices or techniques, a lot of the guidance is to pick an anchor, whether it's the breath or sensations in the body or the coming and going of sounds, and to have that be your home base. If it's more of a mindfulness practice, then there's an accommodation that the mind will wander, but we come back again and again to our same home base. The breath, the body sounds, or maybe if it's loving kindness, you know, a quality of the heart. With open awareness practice, we are not choosing an anchor, but really allowing the flow of experience, thoughts, sensations, emotions, sounds, everything to be a part of what we are aware of. We're not choosing it is exactly kind of like what it sounds like if we think about taking a picture. With concentration practices, oh, I think open awareness can be a concentration practice, but with certain concentration practices, it's almost as if we are focusing the lens and making the scope a lot more narrow. Open awareness is like taking a wide angle photo or having a long lens or even using soft focus where you're just not picking one particular thing. So yeah, that's my little answer there.
- [11:22]
Dan Harris
This is a question I've had from people before. How do you define a concentration practice? What does that mean and how is that different from an open awareness practice which is, as you said, can be a concentration practice but sometimes really isn't?
- [11:38]
Afosu Jones Corte
Yeah, yeah. So I think that when it comes to these techniques, we do end up getting in a bit of a semantics game because I feel that we can arrive at the same place and we're just kind of going through different doorways. So in my experience with traditional concentration practices, there was even less space allotted to the mind to wander off. It's like we pick an anchor, usually the breath. I'm gonna say usually for me because I was initially trained in the Burmese vipassana system that was developed by Mahasi Sayada and Sayada Upandita. My teacher Bhanti Buddha Rakita taught me this method of just watching the rise and settling of the breath at the abdomen. So when we're just doing a lighter mindfulness practice, yes, the mind will wander, we come back to the breath. When it's a deeper concentration practice, we really, really try to stay with the object of our attention. In my case, the breath and when we notice the mind drifting, we gently but swiftly bring it back. And the goal is to stay with the object until there's really a quality of non distraction. There's nothing else but your attention and the object of attention, even to the point where the two begin to feel as though they're inseparable. The mind becomes very quiet, very still. Yeah, and it's a cool place to hang out for for some time. With open awareness, that quality of stillness is still available, but we don't, or I should say, I don't pick one thing to sort of drill down into. I just allow the flow to be the flow until there's really no resistance to the flow. And I can feel the quality of stillness in my awareness that is different than the flow of sensations, thoughts, sounds, et cetera. And then that quality of stillness, I can rest in that more and more. So it feels like we get to the same place with a deep concentration practice and an open awareness practice, but just vastly different approaches.
- [13:58]
Dan Harris
Let me see if I can just restate some of this because I think for many people, first of all, the word concentration can be off putting because we think of being told to pay attention and grit our teeth and furrow our brow in class or something like that. But concentration, another word for it, is like one pointedness. And it can come with a lot of feeling of tranquility where you get focused on your breath or loving kindness phrases and the mind really settles down. I do want to make clear to anybody who's listening to this and thinking my mind never settles down, that that's okay too. Yes, there's an enormous amount of benefit to be had from just trying to focus on one thing for a nanosecond or two. And then every time your mind wanders, you start again. And in the moment of waking up from distraction, you're learning something incredibly important, which is you're getting a sense of how the mind, how wild the mind is. And that familiarity, otherwise known as mindfulness, allows you not to be yanked around by all of your thoughts and urges and emotions. And so concentration practices are different from like an open awareness or choiceless awareness where there is no anchor. We're not focusing on the breath, we're not focusing on loving kindness practices. We're just trying be mindful of whatever comes up. How's that for a summary?
- [15:24]
Afosu Jones Corte
I think that's a great summary.
- [15:26]
Dan Harris
Okay.
- [15:27]
Afosu Jones Corte
I think it's. Oh, I really don't like the word radical. I think I've said that every time I've been on your Show. But I've. I find that it creeps in when I. When I'm trying to explain something. So what's another word? I think it's maybe special or interesting.
- [15:46]
Dan Harris
Ah.
- [15:47]
Afosu Jones Corte
Anyway, I think that it's an approach to life that is very different than how we normally approach life, which is. Oh, well, again, let me use I statements. It's different than how I normally approach life, which I kind of automatically am judging or bracing or anticipating or fixating or just having some sort of mental relationship with whatever I'm experiencing in my open awareness practice. I'm working on allowing whatever it is to be what it is without clinging to it or rejecting it or ruminating about it. Just giving reality the gift of freedom and giving myself the gift of freedom as well. It's like taking a break from. From the constant getting yanked around. So it might be a good time to segue into why I chose this, why I've been sticking with this practice. Because I have ocd. And choosing one particular object of meditation was just absolute hell. And I was not having a good time in my practice and I stuck with it for so long, but there was so much anxiety around having a bad thought while trying to stick with a particular meditation object. Feeling like a bad meditator when I couldn't stay with the object, or, you know, the compulsion to think the worst possible thought when you're trying to do the best possible thing, which is a symptom of this condition. Oh, it just made my meditation practice really horrific. So before I knew that this was a valid way of practicing, I still just wanted to have a practice. So I would just sit. I used to say, I just sit and watch things change. And then I was practicing with Don Scott and Celeste Young, and one day on the retreat, they offered an open awareness practice. And I was like, oh, this is a thing. Oh, this is amazing. And it just made me feel a little bit more confident in the approach that I was kind of intuitively finding for myself.
- [18:10]
Dan Harris
Yeah, I do want to hear more about your personal story and why this practice appeals to you. And you describe it as a kind of helpful lowering of the bar. But before we get to that, from the perspective of a beginning or intermediate meditator, I can imagine people thinking, I have a hard enough time being with the breath or staying focused on loving kindness phrases or something basic. And you're saying, no, just sit there and be aware of whatever's happening. Well, that's just going to be distraction fest, you know, to. To the max.
- [18:46]
Afosu Jones Corte
Yeah. Yeah. I think what's beautiful about this point in history for us practitioners at whatever level is that we do have quite a banquet of options at our disposal that we can practice with that will suit our mental disposition. So I wouldn't say that open awareness is one size fits all, but I would recommend that folks take some time to perhaps experiment with it and see if it's something they can add to their meditation toolkit, so to speak. For me, it's become my go to. And in the Soto Zen tradition, which I've been practicing in for about a year and some change now, the practice of shikantaza just sitting is essentially parallel to an open awareness practice where there's no. We're not choosing anything, just letting the flow of life happen. And there's actually a real freedom in just in not choosing. Because in my experience, we don't really have that much choice in the first place. You know, internally, externally, so much is happening that's out of our control. That when you have an open awareness practice allows us to sort of make peace with the vastness of our everyday experience. It helps us. Well, helps me widen my capacity to be with. If I have a deadline and my kid has a particular need and there's a fire truck happening in the background and my OCD is acting up, I don't have control over the timing of those things. They are happening. So what's my response? Maybe it is to take a breath and be with one thing that can help anchor me through it, or it is to have a kind of inner spaciousness that I've been cultivating through this practice that reminds me that all of this is coming and going. It's all coming and going. I don't have to get too hung up on any of it. I can just kind of give myself and the whole situation more space.
- [21:12]
Dan Harris
Yeah, I relate to that. This sense of not being at war with reality, which can be really peaceful. I do want to just keep pressing you on this how to do it, even if you aren't, you know, a super experienced meditator. So I'll. I'll just say a little bit about how I do open awareness practice.
- [21:36]
Afosu Jones Corte
Yes.
- [21:36]
Dan Harris
As somebody who doesn't have a extraordinary degree of concentration, in other words, as somebody who is fidgety and distractible, one thing I, I do that's really helpful is I start my meditation session with a concentration practice, like a body scan, where you're moving from the top of the head down to the forehead, the eye sockets, jaws, neck, throat, et cetera, et cetera. All the Way down to the feet and then maybe sweeping through one or two, three times in a very slow systematic way. That does focus the mind. Loving kindness practice really focuses the mind for me. Not to the point where there's no distraction, but fewer distractions. And then I can open up into a choiceless awareness. And then once I'm in that choiceless awareness, I actually use things thought to help me stay in the game via something called mental noting, which I know you're familiar with. Where instead of just sitting here and seeing if I can just stay in the present moment in an unbroken way, I use just a little, as Joseph Goldstein says, little whisper in the mind. Oh, hearing, thinking, seeing, tingling, unpleasant, pleasant. And so I say all of that to see what your reaction is as a teacher and what else you would recommend.
- [23:00]
Afosu Jones Corte
Sure. So that is beautiful. And following that formula I think can get anybody into the flavor and practice of open awareness. I love that you begin with an anchoring or concentration practice for me because the breath has been like the number one thing for me for 20 years now. It's just my default. I do begin by just noticing my breathing at the abdomen, but it's held very lightly. And I think holding it lightly has also been helpful for me because I used to hold everything very tightly. I really have to drill down, concentrate. I think that word concentration as you mentioned earlier didn't denote or connote any sense of tranquility for me. It really was about like forcing the mind to stay in one place. So I, I, I really try to hold any so called concentration practice lightly. But I do allow the breath normally to be my entryway and after being with the breath for a little bit, generally just dropping into a more choiceless place. I've try to experiment. There's a teacher, Ashin U tginea who suggested in one of his books, I think it's called don't look down at the defilements. They'll laugh at you. That noting is great and that we could also practice with just being aware. So almost like a silent noting, if that's, if that makes any sense. I've been trying to experiment with both the noting practice is very, very helpful. It allows me to stay in the moment and just say okay, yes, like you said, that little whisper, hearing, feeling, breath, pleasant, unpleasant, and no judgment around any of it.
- [25:02]
Dan Harris
Actually you can make a note of judgment, right?
- [25:04]
Afosu Jones Corte
Yeah, it's very true. And then sometimes I'll just try to see if I can even make some space in between the noting and just really just feel and notice what's there. But I love the approach that you mentioned, going through the body maybe a few times to really get grounded and to really let the mind settle. Before we open up the window, just.
- [25:31]
Dan Harris
To say a little bit about Sayada Utejania, who you referenced. He is a Burmese master. I've never met him or interviewed him, but he has many students who teach in the West. One of them is Alexis Santos, who's been on this show a bunch of times. I'll drop some links to Alexis's prior appearances on this show in the show notes. I actually just spent the weekend with Alexis.
- [25:52]
Afosu Jones Corte
Oh, amazing.
- [25:54]
Dan Harris
And Sayada Utejendia's teachings via Alexis have been massively helpful to me. And he has this sequence of three phrases he asks his students to drop into the mind. The first is, are you aware? Or am I aware? And that just kind of reminds you to wake up. Of course, the present moment, awareness will disappear or the mind will wander off, and then you can come back gently, Am I aware? The second phrase is, and I love this, what's the attitude in the mind right now? Which is just a way to kind of turn the lights on for subterranean defilements? You use that phrase?
- [26:40]
Afosu Jones Corte
Yeah.
- [26:41]
Dan Harris
In Buddhism, the three poisons or defilements are greed, hatred, and delusion. Wanting, not wanting, or not being aware at all. And when you ask, what's the attitude in the mind right now? It can reveal. It's like turning on a black light in a hotel room.
- [27:01]
Afosu Jones Corte
Yikes.
- [27:02]
Dan Harris
When you see all sorts of disgusting shit on the sheets, you can reveal, oh, I'm sitting here wanting to be concentrated, or I'm wanting this meditation to be over, or whatever. And so just asking that question, you know, reveals that desire is in sexual congress with your leg, like a untrained dog or whatever. And. And that's really helpful. And then the third phrase is not a question, it's just a phrase. This is nature, which is a reminder that all these things you're seeing in your mind, including your distraction, including your moments of radiant clarity. It's not personal. It's inextricably. Any seemingly idiosyncratic and bespoke little thought you're having is, of course, just another little expression of the universe.
- [27:55]
Afosu Jones Corte
Exactly. And to me, a practice that lends itself to openness reveals just that, that this is really just nature. In my practice, I see so much of my automatic responses that are so fast that I couldn't. I at least don't have the presence of mind to prevent them from arising. So whether it's judgment or aversion or distraction or bliss. You know, they arise, they hang out for a moment and they go on their way. The insight that can come from an open awareness practice is seeing how deeply this pattern is true for literally everything. For your thoughts, for your sensations, for the dog that's passing by your window right now, for the emotion that you're feeling, for the question your kid is asking you or whatever it might be. It's all coming and going. It's all coming and going. It's all coming and going. And the way that we brace or the way that we grab for and against or the way that we try to be aloof towards reality begins to soften a little bit because we are just so intimately aware of the experience of impermanence, vast impermanence, and that this is nature exactly as, as you said, as Sayada Ut suggests. Yeah.
- [29:40]
Dan Harris
Coming up, Afosu talks about the three marks of existence. This is Buddhist speak for the three non negotiable aspects of being alive, impermanence, suffering, and not self or emptiness. We also talk about self compassion and lowering the bar in your meditation practice generally. I like nice clothes. I wouldn't call myself a fashion plate. My wife is, but I'm more, you know, I'm not like high style. You won't see me on the runways in Paris. But I like nice clothes and I like to look good, which is important because a lot of my work is on camera. However, I don't like to spend a ton of money, which is why I really love Quint because they've got high quality stuff, you know, like high quality fabrics, classic fits, lightweight layers for warm weather, all at prices that make sense. Everything I've ordered from Quint has been totally solid. And I order real basics like underwear and socks, but also cashmere sweaters. They've got these really comfy pants that I wear a lot. You may have heard me say this before, but it is not uncommon for me to be head to toe Quint, especially when I'm like in the city having meetings. If I'm at home, I'm in sweatpants, but often I'll be wearing Quint's cozy wear. So I represent at home and out in the world. Quint has closet staples you'll reach for over and over, like cozy cashmere and cotton sweaters for just 50 bucks. Breathable flow knit polos and comfortable lightweight pants that somehow work for both weekend hangs and dressed up dinners. Everything from Quints is half the cost of similar brands. By working directly with top artisans and cutting out the middlemen. Quint gives you luxury pieces without the markup and Quint's own only works with factories that use safe, ethical and responsible manufacturing practices and premium fabrics and finishes. Keep it classic and cool with long lasting staples from quince go to quince.com happier for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. Quince.com happier summer's here. We're all chasing something. A break, a goal, a vibe. Let's not let bad socks and blisters ruin the whole thing. Bombas makes socks and now slides and seamless essentials that keep up with whatever your summer looks like, whether you're running a marathon or just a few errands. Lots of use cases here. If you're a runner and I am, you know those songs that make you want to go fast. Bomba's running socks are like that. They wick sweat, help you keep cool and fight blisters. And it's not just running. They make specialized socks. Socks for hiking, tennis, golf, you name it. And they don't stop at socks. They've got fresh white tees that you barely have to break in, waterproof slides for the beach, backyard and everywhere in between, and buttery soft sweat wicking underwear that feels barely there. They even make socks that can make international flights bearable. Yeah, we're talking about Bombas compression socks to help curb aches and keep those legs energized for the sightseeing that lies ahead. Plus the wedding season is in full swing. You want to see their ruffle and dress socks? You should check them out. Best of all, they don't just feel good, they do good. One purchased equals one donated to somebody who needs it. You can also order Bombas abroad. That's right. Along with the US they now ship internationally to over 200 countries. I love Bombas socks. Super comfortable. Highly recommend. Head over to bombas.com and use code happier for 20% off your first purchase. That's bombas.com code happier at checkout bombas.com and use code HAPPIER. It's funny, there are three poisons or three defilements in the classical Buddhist language. Greed, hatred and delusion. There are also these three marks of existence in the classical Buddhist parlance, meaning there are these three non negotiable aspects of reality that you can see quite clearly in a practice like this. One is impermanence. Everything changes all the time. You were referencing that and that can be terrifying but also liberating because all of the stuff that's dogging you is just coming and going. The second is suffering, which is. Sounds a little bit more dire or gower than, Than, than. Than it is. It's just that if you're clinging to things in a universe characterized by impermanence, you're going to suffer.
- [34:04]
Afosu Jones Corte
Yep.
- [34:05]
Dan Harris
And so you can see how a pleasant state arises, and you're clinging to it and it goes away and you suffer. And so you can watch that in an open awareness meditation, or really, honestly, almost any kind of meditation. You're watching the mind. You can see this. And the third, which is directly pointed at through the phrase this is nature, is what is often called not self or emptiness, which essentially just means there's nothing in your mind that you can claim as yours. It feels like it's yours, but as you examine it, you realize that claiming it as yours is, in the words of one great monk, a misappropriation of public property. There is all just nature. It's all just the universe playing itself out. And that sounds trippy or weird, but it's actually really comforting that once you see your emotions as passing meteorological phenomena, then you can work with them and not be so caught up in them.
- [35:07]
Afosu Jones Corte
Yes, things stop being so. Life or death, and the feeling that the way life is is somehow a personal attack or affront on me or you, that begins to dissipate. The five remembrances that the Buddha talks about that we are all of the nature to be impermanent, the nature to grow old, the nature to experience illness, the nature to die, and the inheritors of our actions. Pieces of that or all of that can be seen in an open practice. And it's not about taking anything on or believing anything, but kind of making peace with how things are. And that peacefulness is something that we can carry into our relationships. For instance, like yesterday I was feeling really good and which is not always the case. And I found myself, like, starting to worry, like, oh, man, you know, how long is this good feeling gonna last? And resting back in the openness that I've been working to make a relationship with, you know, I kind of was able to say, you know, it's here right now, and that's enough. And I really have no idea what's going to happen next. And then giving myself that space of, like, I don't have to cling to this good feeling. I don't know what's going to happen next, but I know it'll change. I feel like it gave my sense of, well, being a little bit longer, like, lifespan, because I wasn't trying to hold on to it or push it away or worry about it, just like kind of letting it be and letting the mystery of life just be a mystery, you know? Yeah.
- [37:07]
Dan Harris
In my experience, being mindful of something, being mindfully aware, meaning I'm seeing it clearly. I'm not trying to cling to it, I'm not trying to push it away. I have a sense of warm curiosity about it. There's no suffering in those moments. You can be mindfully aware of something deeply unpleasant. I'm not saying I can always do it. If I'm in a panic attack, it's very hard for me to muster mindfulness. But when I'm mindful or. Actually one of the things I often say to myself when I'm on retreat is if I'm suffering in any way, it just means there's something I'm not being mindful of. And to me that's one of the benefits and beauties of open awareness practices. Every time you wake up and start being mindful again, it's like you're. The suffering goes away.
- [38:03]
Afosu Jones Corte
Yeah. You realize that the edges that you have are imaginary. The resistance that you have, you can go right up to the edge of that resistance and just rest there. And then in my experience, it fades. And my capacity to be with reality as it is, not how I want it to be, not how it just was, but just as it is. It opens, the horizon, extends. And it's not this kind of like super blissful experience. It really just feels more open and more peaceful. I think a part of maybe how greed, hatred and delusion manifest in our experience is in trying to forecast how things are going to be or plan. And obviously this is built into our evolution, you know, all of that. But life really is. When you think of like impermanence, unsatisfactoryness, non self. I mean to me that says that life is a fucking mystery.
- [39:12]
Dan Harris
Yes.
- [39:14]
Afosu Jones Corte
And to the extent that we can be at peace with the mystery is the extent that we are going to have a better time in it. And I feel like this practice gives us an opportunity to witness the mystery unfold in real time and to learn how to make peace with it.
- [39:33]
Dan Harris
I believe the word that Buddhists use to describe what you are describing or to capture what you are describing is equanimity. It's like, can you have a generalized okayness with whatever's happening?
- [39:45]
Afosu Jones Corte
Yeah. And I think there's a misinterpretation that we have to be even keeled in an otherwise topsy turvy world. And I don't Think that's what equanimity is asking us? No.
- [40:02]
Dan Harris
Yes, I agree.
- [40:03]
Afosu Jones Corte
It is to allow our peace to match the dynamism of life. It's like, okay, now, okay, well this is really great. Okay, it can be great. I just know that greatness isn't forever, but I can embrace the greatness for as long as it is. I've been reading Everyday Zen by Charlotte Joko Beck and she's been talking about two ways that we can suffer either like skillfully or unskillfully. And in the skillful model, we actually just embrace and become fully aware and fully enmeshed with the experience of suffering so that there's an intimate relationship with it. And then it passes, then it changes. And we haven't, we haven't made anybody else suffer more because of it. We haven't infiltrated it with our own ideas. We just say, okay, this sucks and I'm with it. And then, then it changes and then it's like, oh, okay, yeah, that's right. It always changes. And you know, unpleasant experiences are just a part of the game, but we can make them so much more unpleasant when we start adding all of our stuff.
- [41:16]
Dan Harris
So let me see if I can tie a bow around at least this part of the conversation. Open awareness practice or choiceless awareness practice is where you sit and just try to be as mindful as you can with whatever's happening. Of course you're going to get distracted and that's cool. You can just when you wake up, start again. And if you wake up with a big blast of self directed judgment, you can just make a little mental note of judgment. And speaking of notes like that's a little mental noting is a way to keep yourself in the game. You could also start with what's often referred to as classical concentration practices like loving kindness or focusing on the breath and then open up to open awareness. The use case here is if you've got a solid meditation practice, this is one way to diversify it. Or if like afosu, you find that you've been actually really struggling with trying to grit your teeth, bear down and do breath based or loving kindness meditation because you know it's quite restrictive on the mind, well then this is an option that might be a useful lowering of the bar.
- [42:25]
Afosu Jones Corte
Exactly. I love Buddhism. I love the practice of meditation. I so wanted to continue my practice but my practice was so, so uncomfortable. When I say my practice was hell, I really do mean it, like sitting and just the entire session, I would still learn, I'd learn a lot, you know, But I would just have the worst time. I didn't want to give up on my practice. And so for me, this approach was really a lifeline to staying in the game. It's made me love meditating, How. I'll say that, because I. I walk past the cushion and be like, okay, here we go. It's time. It's time to go back into, you know, the depths. But now it's just. It's like. It's time to just sit and be open and just have a relationship with the mystery. Something that I am kind of intuiting in this practice is that there actually isn't that much to do. This reflection, that this is nature in my approach to this practice, I'm coming to terms with that more and more and just allowing nature to be nature instead of. Yeah, filling it with my own ideas and then chasing after those ideas, et cetera. So there is a sense that, you know, the Mahayana tradition talks about that, you know, we. We are already perfect, and we're just not seeing it or relating to ourselves and the universe and reality in a skillful Or. Yeah. In the proper way, so to speak. This approach to practice has made me realize that I don't have to put some massive goal of achieving deep states of concentration or becoming like a superheroic meditator. I can sit and just let everything be, and that's enough. And there's actually something miraculous and beautiful in bearing witness to all of that.
- [44:34]
Dan Harris
A couple of phrases that came to mind as you were talking. These are phrases that I've heard elsewhere, and I don't remember who I heard them from, but occasionally I will remember to say them to myself in open awareness. Practice, one is nothing to do with nowhere to go. It's already here. Meaning that your awareness is already here. The point of practice, it's already here. Often it's papered over by, you know, planning a homicide or wondering about what's for lunch or whatever. But this ability to just be aware in a raw, bare way of whatever's happening in the mind, in the body, in the space around you, it's already here. There's. There's nothing you have to go do. You just gotta let go. And then the other phrase is, you don't have to chase the Dharma. The Dharma is chasing you.
- [45:29]
Afosu Jones Corte
Absolutely love that. I have not heard that second one. Yeah. I mean, I was so rabidly chasing the Dharma, and there's just no need to do that. It is this very moment. There's so much beauty, so much Mystery, So much truth. Maybe beauty and mystery aren't always available to our perception, but the truth, the raw truth, which can give way to beauty and mystery, is always right here. Yeah. That phrase, nowhere to go, nothing to do. This is it. Yeah.
- [46:07]
Dan Harris
Going back to the beginning of the conversation, I was saying how when Eleanor, who's producing this episode, asked you what you wanted to talk about, he said self compassion and open awareness. And to me, and you just tell me if you think I have got this right. There is a self compassion in this lowering of the bar for meditation. It's baked right into this entire approach.
- [46:35]
Afosu Jones Corte
Absolutely. Absolutely. I think there's so much in the culture of meditation and mindfulness, both the ancient culture and the modern culture, that suggests that we have to be overachievers. It's another thing for us to become experts at, to become masters at, to get straight A's, to get a PhD in. You know, whether it is the stories of great masters who have accomplished these incredible feats of mind and heart, or whether it's maintaining your streak on a meditation app, there's still this, I think, a pervasive, maybe misinterpretation of what we're actually up to here. And that, you know, If I do 100 days, which is great, I'm not, please do, do a hundred, do a thousand days. But the attitude that comes with it, I think can end up being another stick that we end up whacking ourselves with or another measuring tool that we feel that we're falling short. I hear it all the time. I don't do it enough, or I can't do it, or I just don't think that my mind is capable or all that. And with a practice like this, it's like, no, you know, just have a seat and let yourself be. You know, we can just take a few breaths or just notice how the body's feeling, notice what sounds are there, you know, give yourself some space to settle, and then you actually don't have to do anything at all but be present for your life in this moment. So I'm navigating this neurodivergent mental health condition that I have that not necessarily everybody else has, but I. I have heard anecdotally that folks deal with the same thing that I'm about to mention. I set up my meditation session to last 15, 30 minutes, whatever. And then the goal is just to have the best 15, 30 minutes I could possibly have mentally, emotionally, spiritually, whatever. Like, let's just carve out this perfect 30, and God forbid I Have a negative thought, or in my case, I have a barrage of, you know, really crazy, unpleasant, intrusive thoughts. Oh. And what if you have a bad thought right before the bell? Oh. Then the whole thing is just. It's a failure. And in this practice, I've been seeing that every moment is complete. Whether it was great, whether it sucked, you know, it came and went. I don't have to judge my life by did I accomplish a great slice of time or was I the most optimal for this window of time? Every moment is complete. It's all coming and going. So then the pressure lowers and counterintuitively, the length of time I spend just feeling a little bit more chill, you know, extends. So, yeah, I do think that in lowering the bar, we do ourselves a great kindness and there's a lot of wisdom that's available to us there when we're not pressing ourselves so hard.
- [49:52]
Dan Harris
Yeah. It's this strange paradox of meditation, which is. I often describe it as a fucked up video game where you can't move forward if you want to move forward. So it's something about, like, the necessity of surrender or dropping your expectations or another thing I often say is meditation is where perfectionism comes to die.
- [50:18]
Afosu Jones Corte
Oh, man. Yeah.
- [50:19]
Dan Harris
Or another little saying that's on the wall at the Insight Meditation Society where you and I have both done retreats and you've taught retreats. Stop expecting and then the whole practice will unfurl for you.
- [50:31]
Afosu Jones Corte
Yeah. Yes, yes, yes. I think the whole of the Buddha's diagnosis and prescription for life is so counterintuitive. And the fact that it appears so deeply counterintuitive to us, or to me is evidence of the condition that many of us find ourselves in. The unenlightened condition that we can't immediately see that what we habitually go to for happiness ends up disappointing us.
- [51:06]
Dan Harris
Yes.
- [51:07]
Afosu Jones Corte
That chasing after things or harshly rejecting things or just trying to pretend like something's not happening doesn't give us a joyful relationship with reality. I love that video game analogy. It's like, if you want to move forward, you have to stop. Yeah.
- [51:28]
Dan Harris
And I know that can sound frustrating to people, but it just means, like, can you be okay with whatever's happening right now instead of leaning into the next moment or trying to achieve something or expecting a certain outcome? The point is not to feel a certain way. It's to feel whatever you're feeling, clearly, so that your feelings generally don't own you as much. I mean, simple but not easy.
- [51:53]
Afosu Jones Corte
Simple but not easy. Something that I think I'm noticing is how much I have believed that my thoughts and feelings are my only reality.
- [52:06]
Dan Harris
Yeah.
- [52:07]
Afosu Jones Corte
But as I engage with this practice more, the quality of awareness, which is, in my experience, peaceful, vast, stable, underlies the tumult of my joys and sorrows. And it's another quality that is a part of me, you know, me in air quotes. So it's not just my thoughts and feelings, but I can actually have. There's actually a deep source of peace and stability underneath all of it. And that quality of awareness comes to the fore, you know, more and more in my life as I engage with this practice.
- [52:57]
Dan Harris
Yeah. I mean, just to put. See if I can. Again, I'm always trying to identify or get myself into the minds of anybody listening who might be struggling in some way to understand this. But, yeah, we all know we have thoughts and that we have sensations. We hear stuff, we see stuff, we taste stuff. We all know we have emotions, but we're so caught up in all of the thoughts and urges and emotions and sensations that we rarely turn around to look at, like, what is knowing all of this and there's a vast reservoir of equanimity and peace to be had and just realizing that there's something mysterious that is aware of the sound of my voice right now, of whatever sensations are happening in your body right now, and just check that out.
- [53:45]
Afosu Jones Corte
Yeah.
- [53:46]
Dan Harris
As the Buddhists often say, the not finding or. Because you won't find anything. The not finding is the finding. That's the point.
- [53:56]
Afosu Jones Corte
Yes. Yeah. Bingo.
- [53:59]
Dan Harris
Coming up, afosu talks about the relationship between neurodiversity and meditation. How to not take your suffering so seriously, or personally, the practice, self assessment tapes that we all run in our mind about our meditation practice. And we also hear some of afosu's music and talk about the life experiences that inspire fired it. I like nice clothes. I wouldn't call myself a fashion plate. My wife is, but I'm more, you know, I'm not like high style. You won't see me on the runways in Paris. But I like nice clothes and I like to look good, which is important because a lot of my work is on camera. However, I don't like to spend a ton of money, which is why I really love Quint. Because they've got high quality stuff, you know, like high quality fabrics, classic fits, lightweight layers for warm weather, all at prices that make sense. Everything I've ordered from Quint has been totally solid. And I order real basics like underwear and socks, but also cashmere sweaters. They've got these really comfy pants that I wear a lot. You may have heard me say this before, but it is not uncommon for me to be head to toe Quince, especially when I'm like in the city having meetings. If I'm at home I'm in sweatpants, but often I'll be wearing Quint's cozy wear so I represent at home and out in the world. Quint has closet staples you'll reach for over and over, like cozy cashmere and cotton sweaters from just 50 bucks, breathable flow knit polos and comfortable lightweight pants that somehow work for both weekend hangs and dressed up dinners. Everything from Quint is half the cost of similar brands by working directly with top artists when cutting out the middlemen, Quince gives you luxury pieces without the markup and Quince only works with factories that use safe, ethical and responsible manufacturing practices and premium fabrics and finishes. Keep it classic and cool with long lasting staples from quince go to quince.com happier for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. Quince.com happier summer's here. We're all chasing something. A break, a goal, a vibe. Let's not let bad socks and blisters ruin the whole thing. Bombas makes socks and now slides and seamless essentials that keep up with whatever your summer looks like, whether you're running a marathon or just a few errands. Lots of use cases here if you're a runner and I am, you know those songs that make you want to go fast. Bomb Bamba's running socks are like that. They wick, sweat, help you keep cool and fight blisters. And it's not just running. They make specialized socks for hiking, tennis, golf, you name it. And they don't stop at socks. They've got fresh white tees that you barely have to break in, waterproof slides for the beach, backyard and everywhere in between, and buttery soft sweat wicking underwear that feels barely there. They even make socks that can make international flights bearable. Yeah, we're talking about Bomba's compression socks to help curb aches and keep those legs energized for the sightseeing that lies ahead. Plus, the wedding season is in full swing. You want to see their ruffle and dress socks? You should check them out. Best of all, they don't just feel good, they do good. One purchased equals one donated to somebody who needs it. You can also order Bombas abroad. That's right. Along with the US they now ship internationally over 200 countries. I love Bombas socks. Super comfortable. Highly recommend. Head over to bombas.com and use code happier for 20% off your first purchase. That's bombas.com code happier at checkout bombas.com and use code HAPPIER. So you have a new book which I mentioned in the intro. Lyrical Dharma, which is a collection of your lyrics and your poetry, interspersed with, you know, commentary about your own life experiences and. Which are quite rich.
- [57:48]
Afosu Jones Corte
Thank you.
- [57:49]
Dan Harris
Your life experiences and. And complex. So I want. I want to play a clip from one of your tunes, the Hundreds y, and then get you to kind of unpack it on the other side.
- [58:01]
C
Wrote 100 rounds like a 100 times Blew 100 lines like a 100 times Listen for the sniff I ain't hard to find Walking in the dark I was coming colorblind I lived a hundred lives Like a hundred times for every pot of gold I found a way to undermine Almost lost my wife Like a hundred times what do you see in me? She told me love is blind 100 hours of meditation Like a hundred times I must have cried at least a hundred thousand times Attempted suicide a couple times Saved by the power when understanding and love combined all the I did to numb my mind so many bottles Vampire said my blood was wine or rather Tito Shout out to my amigos who took tuck the nine for coming in the clutch Like a hundred times Call my therapist discussion time Turns out the pain that I was holding really wasn't mine Still I had to heal from it for the hundredth time Underlying fear Turn your thoughts and become the mind From Noah's Ark to Napoleon Bonaparte I was blown apart A hero in disguise Like I'm Joan of Arc I know the feeling when it's cold and dark Spiritual surgery prefer me with an open heart.
- [59:04]
Dan Harris
I mean, that's. I'm. First of all, I wouldn't call myself an expert in rap history, but I've listened to no. No small amount of hip hop in my life dating back to when I was a young boy. And I don't think it's super common for rappers to be as open as you are and, you know, numbing your mind.
- [59:25]
Afosu Jones Corte
Yeah.
- [59:26]
Dan Harris
So if you're comfortable saying more about your life experiences in this regard, I'd be interested in hearing it.
- [59:33]
Afosu Jones Corte
Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Well, I appreciate you playing the song. I was really. What's the word? I was proud of myself when I put that verse together because I think it really captured a lot of what my life had been like up to that point. So that song's about. It's about a year or so, a year to maybe two years old. Now. I referenced that song in the opening of the book because it is kind of like a thesis statement for how things had been going for me in my Life. Going for 20 plus years with a really difficult, undiagnosed mental health condition, thinking that it meant that I was a bad meditator, that I was a bad person, you know, having terrible and intrusive thoughts, terrible anxiety and. And being confused about what all of that meant, and having a lot of self hatred around that and trying to meditate my way out of it only and not seeking some additional help for it, while seeking additional help from unreliable sources like, you know, drug dealers and liquor stores and the implications that that had on my relationship, on my relationships, on, you know, in deteriorating my mental health, etc. I fell into being a Dharma teacher really by accident, but it's been many years now that I've occasionally held the teacher's seat. And I wanted my lives to not be so separate. My music life, my practice life, my artist life, my teaching life. So I've been working on just making everything a part of the flow of one expression. And as a, as a teacher, I don't want to sit in front of people and pretend that I am, you know, some super realized person or that my life is this super clean story. I'd rather speak from a place of someone who's suffered quite deeply in ways that were out of my control and in ways that I exacerbated through my own actions. And if my practice and my art are going to be the same, then I then I have to do the same in my art and speak from what's real. I think hip hop tends to speak to a lot of pain. And I think more and more people are speaking to the pain that they personally experience. I think hip hop also, the type of hip hop that is championed or that is mainstream is usually talking about the ways in which people are trying to hide from their pain through sex, through drugs, through materialism, through violence. And I'm interested in what's the root. What's the root of our suffering? And can we talk about that so that we can become more liberated from it? You mentioned on a TikTok that your mom was like, hey, why do you have to mention this unpleasant part of your own history? You know, wouldn't you want to keep that private? And you said that, you know, you can't make connections with people if you're hiding parts of yourself. People will make a connection with you. If you can be real with them. And when I saw that, I was like, okay. That actually gave me a lot of confidence while I was writing this book, because there were some chapters. I was like, oh, my God, my mother is going to read this. My kids are going to read this eventually. And like, oh, should I do this? Should I say this? But I'm like, man, there are so many people who could either relate or who I know for a fact, you know, have had similar experiences that perhaps this could be helpful. And for me, it's my way of saying that these stories don't have control over me anymore. You know, they are now the mud from which a lotus is beginning to arise. You know, so. So I'll pause there.
- [63:33]
Dan Harris
Well, I think it's awesome you're doing it. I think your kids will thank you for it eventually.
- [63:37]
Afosu Jones Corte
Thank you.
- [63:39]
Dan Harris
There's a line in here that might be worth dwelling on just because it definitely rhymes with what we were talking about earlier about not self or impersonality. Call my therapist. Discussion time. Turns out the pain I was holding really wasn't mine.
- [63:54]
Afosu Jones Corte
Yes. Okay. Yeah. And that was a line I was like, oh, man, you wrote something cool. I was talking with a monk named Brother Fap Lin at Plum Village Monastery when I was there about a year ago, and I had asked him, do people who have mental health conditions or mental illness or neurodiversity, you know, can they achieve enlightenment? And I loved his answer. You know, he said, I don't know, which is always a great answer. He said, I don't know, but I think the question you're asking is too small. He said, I think you have to go big or go home. Consider the type of suffering that you're experiencing and consider all the beings who have experienced a similar type of suffering from the beginning of time, or at least the beginning of humanity up until now. Now consider all of the people who are dealing with that type of suffering around the world right now. And now consider everyone who might experience or who definitely will experience some form of this type of suffering in the future. How does that make you feel? And I said, well, it makes this experience that I'm having feel less personal. And he was like, yeah, you know, suffering sort of moves through each of us in. In this kind of like. It's kind of like a wave that moves through the human condition that we each can do something about, but we don't. We don't own it. We didn't. We didn't curse ourselves. You know, it's not ours. It's not personal. It's a part of the relationship that we have with reality. It's also deeply a part of our conditioning. Who our parents were, who their parents were, where we grew up, what gender we were born in, what gender we identify with, what our skin color, all these different factors, none of it really belongs to us. And so if we can depersonalize our experience of suffering, we can start to be liberated from it. So the line says, call my therapist. Discussion time. Turns out the pain that I was holding really wasn't mine. Still, I had to heal from it for the hundredth time, cause underlying fears, turn to thoughts, and become the mind. So even though it's impersonal, we still have a responsibility to take care of ourselves and make even a small pivot towards something more liberated, if we can.
- [66:21]
Dan Harris
There's a quote you use that really lands for me. I don't know who said it, you'll tell me. But here it is. If we don't transform pain, we will transmit it.
- [66:31]
Afosu Jones Corte
Yes. Yeah. And the name of this teacher escapes me also. Maybe I'll find it and we can maybe put it in the show notes if it feels good to do that. But I know I referenced it in the book and it's just one of those things. It's like, no, the trauma you experienced was not your fault, but it is your responsibility to do your best not to re. Traumatize yourself or other people around you. Especially if you can remember how much it sucked to experience that trauma. Do your best to not wreak havoc on others. And it's so hard to. It's hard to do that, no matter what, whether you have a practice or not. But if you don't have a practice that puts you in touch with the felt sense of your own experience, it's hard not to transmit your trauma to somebody else. Yeah.
- [67:29]
Dan Harris
That quote is often attributed to Richard Rohr.
- [67:32]
Afosu Jones Corte
That's right. Yes.
- [67:35]
Dan Harris
Yeah. I mean, it's a kind of a cousin of the cliche that hurt people.
- [67:39]
Afosu Jones Corte
Hurt people, hurt people. Yeah. I know from my own experience that I, you know, I've been the hurt person hurting others, and I've been on the receiving end of a hurt person's hurtful actions. I can see in the arc of my life, I was reading something. Frank Ocean, the artist, the singer Frank Ocean had written a letter to himself, to his five years younger self. And he was writing about all the experiences that he had just been through over the last five years, but telling his younger self not to give up because he's on a Plane right now to go into the studio with some major artists, and everything is gonna work out. I was talking with a nun, a Tibetan nun at the Hospital for Sick Children in Canada. And she was talking about, you know, you don't really know how much you've changed until you look back at the last five years. Like, we might be judging ourselves. Like, okay, I'm not as good as I was yesterday or last month. But, like, if you really want to see if your life is bending towards something, just think about where you were five years ago. So thinking about where I was five years ago, wow. Very different trajectory. And even 10 years ago, et cetera. So I do feel like my practice is bending the arc of my life in. In the direction that feels. That feels healthy and that feels good and more healed. But it takes time. So I'm just trying to write about that and just. I don't think I could write about it if I wasn't in a better place. And so that's another part of the celebration of this book and the accompanying album coming into the world.
- [69:21]
Dan Harris
I mean, you're pointing at something I think that will resonate with a lot of people, which is we. I think Joseph, the aforementioned Joseph Goldstein refers to them as the practice self assessment tapes that we run in our mind. Like, how am I doing? Am I, am I good? Am I. Am I doing this right? How am I doing it better than I was doing six months ago? Is any of this making any difference, et cetera, et cetera, when actually you want to take the long view? The Dalai Lama has talked about this too. Are you losing your temper? Did you used to lose your temper ten times a day? And is it now three or even seven?
- [69:57]
Afosu Jones Corte
Right.
- [69:57]
Dan Harris
That's improvement.
- [69:58]
Afosu Jones Corte
Yes.
- [70:00]
Dan Harris
And it's meaningful improvement. It's not nothing.
- [70:03]
Afosu Jones Corte
It's not nothing. Yes. That incremental self assessment tape, it's. It's a part of it, but it shouldn't drive us. It shouldn't make us suffer. I think the incremental self assessment tape can be repackaged or re approached as a simple mindfulness practice. Like, how's my state of mind right now? How are my actions right now? And then say you make a mistake, say you do get angry, or you do have an outburst, or you do have a relapse, or you do have whatever. Say you stumble really hard. How many times have you stumbled in the last five years? Are you one perpetual stumble, or is this kind of more of an anomaly? Is this the exception and no longer the rule? And I'm Finding that for me, more and more, certain things that just. Even my relationship with my kids, you know, stuff that I didn't have patience for, I've got a little bit more patience. And that little bit more patience makes a big deal. Yeah. So it's. It's those small victories and. And taking the long view can be another, you know, important self compassion. Practice.
- [71:15]
Dan Harris
Yes. Yes. Do you think your improvements are from your practice alone or from your practice plus having finally been diagnosed with OCD and getting treated for it?
- [71:27]
Afosu Jones Corte
Oh, I think that it's all practice. What I did, what I. What I used to have a much more narrow view of practice, which, which was like, practice means meditation and reading Dharma books and having Dharma conversations and doing walking meditation and, you know, going on retreat. That's practice. But, you know, practice is really taking care of your life, being aware. In my children's book, I say that mindfulness is a way to be aware and to care, and it's knowing what's happening in your life and then. And then doing the skillful, Having a skillful response to it. So knowing that I was suffering deeply, the skillful, compassionate response which is born out of practice is to get some extra help. So I think that having expanded my view of what practice is, made it okay for me to get additional mental health support, and all of that has made my life a lot more manageable. Yeah, I'm just feeling. I'm feeling happier, definitely. I'm definitely feeling better. And, you know, there is, like, trepidation, like, am I allowed to say that? I think. I think it's a, much cooler to be like, I'm suffering and, And. And b, you know, I don't want someone to. I don't want to invite disaster, you know, by saying I'm. But I. I have no idea what the future is going to hold in this moment. I'm. I'm feeling grateful for being alive and for having a practice, and that's enough.
- [73:00]
Dan Harris
Yeah, I love to hear it. Two questions I ask at the end of interviews. One is, is there something you were hoping we would get to that we didn't?
- [73:11]
Afosu Jones Corte
Oh, this was such a great conversation. Only that, I guess one thing that I'd like to let folks know is that my. Yes. My book Lyrical Dharma is out. And I also released an album right next to the book. It's called Comorebi, and I am very proud of that album. And there are songs from that album that are in the book and songs from my previous two albums that are in the book. So if you go to born imusic.com lyricaldharma all of the songs that are in the book in the order that they appear in the book will be in that playlist. So enjoy.
- [73:46]
Dan Harris
It's funny you answered the second question when I asked the first because the second question was going to be can you just remind us of the name of your book and other stuff? But it sounds like the answer is the new book, which I will have mentioned early, early, early on is lyrical Dharma and there's an album that comes with it. And if you want more information, born imusic.com yes, perfect. If you, dear listener, do not have a pen in your hand, all of that information will be in the show notes. So come back to it at your leisure.
- [74:16]
Afosu Jones Corte
Oh, one last thing. Tying a bow on what I'm always wanting to share is that, you know, life is strange and mysterious. You didn't make it strange and mysterious and you didn't make it challenging. Now we can all make it more challenging. But it's not your fault that life is weird and difficult. And as far as I can remember, nobody really signed up for this. We all just sort of emerged in the space and we gotta deal with it. And that's not your fault. So be nice to yourself. Just, just cool it down. We're all going to die. So while we're here, let's just try to keep it chill, Be aware, take care of your life, be kind to yourself. Yeah, that's the main thing I always want to leave people with.
- [75:06]
Dan Harris
Is just that a big, big plus one to that. I like that. It's also really helpful to just hear you say it on the promotional tip. I do want to say one other thing that Afosu is doing is with me.
- [75:22]
Afosu Jones Corte
Yeah.
- [75:23]
Dan Harris
He's going to be part of the meditation party retreat that I will be co hosting with 7A Selassie and Jeff Warren in October at the Omega Institute in upstate New York. You can get more information by checking out eomega.com or eomega.org I think. Anyway, I'll put a link to that in the show notes and of OO is going to be there and so come say hi.
- [75:50]
Afosu Jones Corte
It's going to be awesome. Yeah, I can't wait. I. I'll play some songs, share some thoughts about the book, and I'm happy to be a part of the retreat.
- [75:58]
Dan Harris
Thank you for doing this, but great to see you as always.
- [76:01]
Afosu Jones Corte
Yeah, always, always. Thank you. Dan.
- [76:11]
Dan Harris
Just want to remind you a couple things before I let you go. First, Afosu is going to be part of the meditation party retreat that we're doing at the end of October, October 24th through 26th at Omega Institute, which is in Rhinebeck, New York. And we'll be doing that with Jeff Warren, seven exiles. It's going to be great. You should come. We call it Meditation Party because we do a lot of meditation, but we also hang out, socialize, eat good food, etc. Etc. I'll put a link in the show notes. Also, as I mentioned, we've got a guided meditation that comes with this episode. Kaira Jewel Lingo is going to teach you how to do open awareness or choiceless awareness meditation. If you want to access that guided meditation, you got to sign up@danharris.com when you sign up, you'll get all of our past and future guided meditations. We are now, as part of our workflow here, going to be be releasing guided meditations for all of our Monday Wednesday episodes so that you can pound the wisdom from the show into your neurons, as I like to say. And if you sign up, you'll also get live guided meditation sessions with me on video. Several times a month I do these live video sessions where I guide a meditation and then take your questions. The next one's coming up tomorrow at 4 Eastern, as a matter of fact, so sign up at Dan Harris, finally, thank you very much to everybody who worked so hard to make this show. Our producers are Tara Anderson, Caroline Keenan and Eleanor Vasily. Our recording and engineering is handled by the great folks over at Pod People. Lauren Smith is our managing producer, Marissa Schneiderman is our senior producer, DJ Cashmere is our executive producer, and Nick Thorburn of the band Islands wrote our theme.