When Your Mind Won't Stop, Try This | Vinny Ferraro

Summary

Podcast Summary: 10% Happier with Dan Harris

Episode: When Your Mind Won't Stop, Try This | Vinny Ferraro
Date: November 28, 2025
Host: Dan Harris
Guest: Vinny Ferraro (Dharma Teacher)

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Overview

This lively and heartfelt episode brings together Dan Harris and renowned Dharma teacher Vinny Ferraro for an accessible, practical exploration of mindfulness, compassion, and community. The conversation blends guided practice with Q&A, focusing on:

• How to manage stress and overthinking with curiosity and self-compassion
• The challenge (and possibility) of compassion for those who do harm
• Approaches to meditation for restless minds
• The unique power and nuances of meditating together—whether in person or online

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Guided “Soft Belly” Meditation (05:11–18:45)

• Vinny leads a gentle meditation focused on softening the belly, calming the nervous system, and meeting whatever arises with care.
• Emphasizes allowing sensations and emotions, letting go of demands for them to be different.
• Encourages using physical cues (hand on belly/chest) for grounding and self-compassion.

Notable Quote:
“We drop the argument that it should feel otherwise. Whatever is there deserves to be met with care. Like we would anyone we love.”
—Vinny Ferraro (11:25)

2. The Transformational Power of Meditating In Community (18:46–22:30)

• Dan queries Vinny on how meditating with others changes awareness.
• Vinny notes that awareness can feel more “precious” and connected with others—online or off.
• Discussion of the “three jewels”: Buddha (awakening), Dharma (teachings), Sangha (community).
• Both note the accessibility and genuine connections possible in digital Sangha.

Notable Quote:
“Can I feel connection through these little windows? And the answer, definitely yes. I was kind of relieved…forced to. Usual—kicking and screaming toward my own liberation.”
—Vinny Ferraro (20:03)

3. The “Soft Belly” Practice—Emotional Relevance (22:55–29:06)

• Vinny expands on why softening the belly is profoundly countercultural: we’re trained to armor up, but it locks out both sorrow and joy.
• Connecting to the belly is a mindfulness anchor—returning to the body’s felt sense rather than overwhelming mental narratives.
• Discussion of how tension is carried not only in the belly, but also chest and throat, depending on the person.

Notable Moment:
“I felt a great release of what Stephen [Levine] used to call ‘unattended sorrow.’ When I started allowing that to be there more, I had more access to joy…Because when we armor up those parts of our hearts, it’s not just the difficult that we keep out.”
—Vinny Ferraro (24:55)

4. Self-Compassion for Skeptics (29:07–30:10)

• Dan references Dr. Kristin Neff’s research:
  1. Mindfulness—“This is anxiety.”
  2. Common humanity—“A billion people feel this way.”
  3. Kind self-talk—“Speak as you would to a friend or your child.”
• Both recount initial resistance (“dragged kicking and screaming toward liberation”) and the surprising potency of these practices.

Notable Quote:
“I had a lot of resistance…with all my male-of-a-certain-age conditioning. I was like, ‘fuck that…I’m not doing any of that,’ but it really is helpful.”
—Dan Harris (28:42)

5. Practical Strategies for Meditating When You Can’t Sit Still (30:13–34:58)

• Listener Joyce asks about focus struggles and feeling “too stressed” to meditate.
• Vinny reframes the inner critic as “Mara”—the mind’s “stories” making practice optional.
• Suggests simply “rest in your own awareness” without striving; for physical restlessness, suggests walking meditation.
• Dan shares: “I don’t really ever ‘let myself off the hook’…I know that when I don’t do it, my inner dialogue is just so much more obnoxious.” (33:06)
• Both endorse Ayya Khema’s walking meditation mantra:
  “Nowhere to go, nothing to get, no one to be.”

Notable Quote:
“Stop with all the striving. Just let yourself rest in your own awareness. That does wonders.”
—Vinny Ferraro (31:43)

6. Being Versus Becoming (34:59–36:18)

• Explores the Buddhist notion of “becoming”—the constant sense of needing to improve, reach, or fix oneself.
• Emphasis on presence: “If the truth is anywhere, it’s right here.” (Dogen, quoted by Vinny)

Notable Quote:
“There’s this delusion baked into it because becoming is reaching for something that’s not here…That’s a great kindness we give ourselves: I’m not on my way somewhere, I’m right here.”
—Vinny Ferraro (35:06)

7. Compassion and Forgiveness for "Evildoers" (38:05–45:04)

• Maria asks how to develop compassion for those who cause harm.
• Vinny, drawing on years of prison work, challenges notions of “evil,” stressing instead pain, confusion, and desperation as root causes.
• Discusses separating “actor from action”; some acts unforgivable, but actor can still be seen as a suffering being.
• Dan adds perspective from Father Gregory Boyle: Think in terms of “healthy/unhealthy” instead of “good/evil.”
  Harm-doers are often deeply isolated (“someone who has no relations”).
• Affirmative action against harm is not incompatible with compassion (“hit…with all the love in your heart”—Ram Dass anecdote).

Notable Quotes:
“I have yet to find evil. I think people do a lot of unskillful things, very desperate…Every time I’ve done harm it’s been out of my own pain, out of my own confusion.”
—Vinny Ferraro (38:52)

“This is not a recipe for passivity or quietism or resignation. It’s just an orientation inwardly and outwardly that allows you to act fueled by something cleaner-burning than hatred.”
—Dan Harris (43:25)

8. Final Reflections: Love or Call for Love (44:05–46:35)

• Vinny shares from the Tao:
  “Liberated is the soul which sees all human behavior as either an act of love or a call for love.”
• Links this to the core Buddhist teaching that “hate doesn’t cease by hate”—an encouragement to respond to harm with understanding rather than othering.

Notable Quote:
“We want to do that much on the other side. The ancient law is hate doesn’t cease by hate. All our exemplars said this…Can I really bring some more goodness into this world?”
—Vinny Ferraro (45:04)

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Memorable Moments & Timestamps

• Soft Belly Practice: (05:11–18:45)
• Meditating in Community: (18:46–22:30)
• Personalizing Practice (Belly, Body, Chest): (25:27–27:08)
• Self-Compassion for Skeptics: (28:01–29:06)
• Walking Meditation Mantra: (33:33–34:43)
• Becoming vs. Being: (34:58–36:18)
• Compassion for Harm-Doers: (38:05–45:04)
• Final Loving Reflection: (44:05–46:35)

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Tone & Takeaways

The tone is wise, warm, candid, and frequently humorous—especially as both Dan and Vinny reflect on their own resistance and imperfections.

• Compassion is not passive: It's possible to care for others, even while acting firmly to prevent harm.
• Curiosity beats judgment: Both inwardly (with our own emotions and bodies) and outwardly (with those who’ve done harm).
• Practice meets you where you are: Meditation can look like walking, laying down, or just feeling your feet on the floor—striving to “do it right” can be a trap.
• Sangha is real—even online: Genuine human warmth and community transcend physical space.

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Selected Quotes

• “We drop the argument that it should feel otherwise. Whatever is there deserves to be met with care.” (11:25, Vinny Ferraro)
• “Can I feel connection through these little windows? And the answer, definitely yes.” (20:03, Vinny Ferraro)
• “When we armor up those parts of our hearts, it’s not just the difficult that we keep out.” (24:55, Vinny Ferraro)
• “There’s this delusion baked into it because becoming is reaching for something that’s not here… I’m not on my way somewhere, I’m right here.” (35:06, Vinny Ferraro)
• “I have yet to find evil. I think people do a lot of unskillful things, very desperate…Every time I’ve done harm it’s been out of my own pain…” (38:52, Vinny Ferraro)
• “This is not a recipe for passivity or quietism or resignation. It’s just an orientation inwardly and outwardly that allows you to act fueled by something cleaner-burning than hatred.” (43:25, Dan Harris)
• “Liberated is the soul which sees all human behavior as either an act of love or a call for love.” (44:13, Vinny Ferraro, quoting the Tao)

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For further information or to try out the live meditation and Q&A sessions, visit danharris.com.

Transcript

[A]

Foreign. This is the 10% happier podcast. I'm Dan Harris. Hello everybody. How we doing today? It's a brief, funny and very useful conversation with the Dharma teacher Vinnie Ferraro, who's a fan favorite and a favorite of mine. We talk about how to handle stress with curiosity instead judgment, whether it's possible or wise to cultivate compassion for people who've done real harm in the world, how to meditate when you can't sit still, how to meditate without striving or overthinking, and the surprising power of meditating with other people, even online. What you're about to hear is a recording of one of our weekly live sessions that we do over on danharris.com these sessions are for our paying subscribers, but we're dropping this one for free. As you'll hear, it starts with a quick guided meditation called a soft belly practice, which is great for calming your nervous system. And then we take your questions. So if you don't want to meditate right now, you can just fast forward through that. If you do want to meditate, do that and then you can listen to the questions. Dealer's choice. By the way, if you want to come to our weekly live meditation and Q and A sessions, you can sign up [e-mail] we do them every Tuesday at 4pm Eastern. Our next one is on December 2nd. It will be me and our December teacher of the month, Jeff Warren. All right, we'll get started with Vinnie Ferraro right after this. This time of year, it's sensory overload everywhere but one feeling that we're all chasing cozy. And Bombas has the socks, slippers, tees, and basically everything you need to get there. There are lots of ways to get 10% happier. I would say comfortable socks have to fall into that category. I got some Bombas socks recently and I love them. In fact, my wife and I have been competing to see who can wear them. So maybe that is reducing my happiness just a little bit because it leading to marital stress. Anyway, the socks are great. Super comfortable, super cozy. And the sock scientists at Bombas have found a way to channel that energy into everything from slippers with the sink in cushioning to satisfyingly weighty tees. And that feeling, it does not stop after one wear, it keeps going. I can attest to that. Also worth noting, Bombas makes gifting easy. They've got answers for all of your gifting questions like what do I get my son's new marathon training girlfriend? Bomba's running socks have sweat wicking and impact cushioning. What about your neighbor's fussy newborn baby? Bombas fit like a hug, and they're designed to feel soft and stay snug on even the wiggliest toes. One of the best things about bombas is that they're mission oriented. For every pair of bombas you purchase, bombas donates one to somebody facing homelessness on your behalf. So anytime you get something cozy, somebody else does too. Head over to bombas.com happier and use the code happier for 20% off your first purchase. That's B O M V A S.com happier code happier at checkout. We're making Thanksgiving plans right now, and we've got a bunch of things we're going to do over the holiday, but one of the things we're going to do is go out to the beach in eastern Long island, the town of Montauk, which we love. It's obviously not going to be beach weather, but it's a great time to hang out in one of our favorite places. When it's a little less touristy, we're going to stay in a house with family members. It's a great way, especially when it's family you haven't seen in a while or family that you don't get to see all the time to really hang out. You're in a house together, especially if it's a big enough house. You've got your own space, but then shared spaces where you can hang out and really get to know each other in unscript scripted casual moments. It's a great way to have more space to be able to cook for yourself and most importantly for me, to be able to bond with people that I don't get to see all the time. And here's the cool thing. I love staying in welcoming homes that I book on Airbnb, but it's got me thinking that my home could do the same for somebody else. My wife and I have put so much love into all the details of our home. Why not help somebody feel comfortable and taken care of while they're traveling? Think about it. If you host your home on Airbnb while you're traveling, it's a great way to offset some of the costs of your trip. The extra income that you make can be put towards an upcoming trip, a splurge you've been eyeing home improvements, and if you've got a lot of trips ahead of you, hosting is a pretty cool and unique way to make some money back. Whenever I travel, my place is just empty. So while I'm away. It really does make sense to host it on Airbnb. Your home might be worth more than you think. Find out how [e-mail] host.

[B]

So we do like 10 minutes.

[A]

Whatever you're feeling, if you feel like you want to go longer.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

All good.

[B]

So my invitation is to let your attention turn inward. If you want to close your eyes, it's a good way to do it. If you want to just soften your gaze, it's another way to do it. But just let awareness fill your body. Feel your feet on the floor, contact with the chair, the cushion. And don't try to meditate, Just arrive. Is rest. As we welcome ourselves into the present moment, the first thing we do is soften any demands we have on this moment. Being a certain way. Or this self being a certain way. And we feel this body with all its sensations being supported by the floor, furniture, Obvious places of tension or holding. Stretch out the shoulders or the neck, anywhere you hold tension, sometimes the jaw. As we pay attention to this body, this is breathing. That's been happening for a lifetime. You don't have to visualize it or imagine it.

[A]

Really.

[B]

How does the body know that it's breathing from the inside out? You might feel the rising and falling of the belly, of the chest.

[A]

The.

[B]

Airflow at the tip of the nose and the nostrils. The invitation is to get curious about this phenomenon. We don't have to fix it or manage it or control it, but just know the breath just as it is. Sometimes it's helpful to put your hand on your chest to feel that life stirring inside us. Right now. We bring that same curiosity to this heart. Not an idea of it or a concept, but what's the felt sense of this caring heart of ours? What's right here, right now? Maybe their tenderness or resistance. Maybe you can't feel anything at all. We don't have to force anything to appear, manufacture anything. But can we just meet the heart exactly as it is in this very moment? Sometimes it can feel like a lifetime of always wanting it to be different. We drop that for this moment. Look, whatever it is belong. Maybe it's quiet, maybe it's heavy. We just drop the argument that it should feel otherwise. Whatever is there deserves to be met with care. Like we would anyone we love. So we list to that part of our experience.

[A]

It.

[B]

Until we breathe right into this dimension of our experience and we say, okay, how can we meet this with care? If it's hard right now? Is there compassion? So many faces of care. We rest in the truth that right now it's like this. The heart is like this, the body is like this. The mind is like this. To willingness to be with ourselves. Maybe courage, that steadying force that allows us to be with experience. What's needed most for you. Sometimes gratitude bubbles up. Just notice what there. We don't have to have the mind complicated. If it's all allowed and nothing was turned away, nothing left out. What heart quality is accessible right now. It. And then we let that be enough. The sincerity of the invitation, right wherever it leads us, we say, okay, I surrender, and I care about whatever arises. We carry this kind of care with us throughout our days. Any moment we need to come back, feet on the floor, breath in our body, hand on our belly, our hearts. And we reach out and say, I'm right here. When you're ready. Leaning back out into this shared space. And noticing. How does awareness change with the presence of others? What happens? I like to keep meditating even though my eyes are open. Sometimes I open and close them and just. It's good to play with awareness because awareness is always aware of something. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Thank you.

[A]

Thank you, Vinny. Great job. What's your answer to that question? How does awareness change if you're meditating with other people?

[B]

It depends, right? Sometimes I see others. It's like, whoa. All of a sudden, there's distance. Sometimes there's great connection where I'm like, wow, look at this house mirrors. You know, with. Now with. This is like 650 eyes looking at us. Well, I guess it's 1300. So here we are in this little box, right? And we know that there's hundreds of people listening. And so what does that do to awareness? It makes it very kind of precious, right? I'm like, oh, my God, we gotta make sure this is good.

[A]

In the Dharma, there's this emphasis on, you know, the three jewels. The Buddha, the Dharma, and the Sangha. The Buddha is the Buddha, the Dharma, the teachings of the Buddha, and the Sanghas. The community. What's your sense? Is online community a distant second place to in person or what?

[B]

Well, you know, that's like saying, well, what meditation is the best? How are you going to compare these things? You know what I mean? What do we learned after Covid? Because I never did online stuff. You got to be in the room. It's like, yeah, but how about if we couldn't be in the room? Come taught us that. Like, oh, shit. No, it's not the same as in person. But just like every practice bears a Different fruit. This kind of interaction bears a different fruit. So I try to not compare it so much because a lot of us don't maybe live in San Francisco or New York or. You know what I mean? So the accessibility opens up. Can I feel connection through these little windows? And the answer, definitely yes. Yeah, I was kind of relieved. I was like surprised because I never liked this kind of technical stuff until I was forced to. So like usual kicking and screaming toward my own liberation, you know, you've been looking in screens for decades, bro.

[A]

I think one way broadcasting, which I did for a long time and was reflected in my interpersonal communication style, is not the best for this. And I do agree. I do think there massive power to in person, which is why I've tried to organize more in person events over time. But there are massive logistical hurdles. You can't do it every Tuesday afternoon. So just doing it digitally is really helpful. I find these sessions incredibly enjoyable, personally.

[B]

Yeah, you know, when the mind's not in the way, right? Because the comparing mind just arises, right. They said even that's the last fetter to break. The last link in the chain is comparing mind. That was relieving to me to think that the Dalai Lama sitting there like, you know what, this cat next to me, I'm not sure, man, you know what I mean? Like, even him, we're in good company, you know, that's not like some kind of penalty. It's like, oh, the comparing mind, of course. So I'm comparing this to in person. Well, I'd rather be able to get you in a headlock. That'd be nice. You know what I mean? Same room. I try to not compare it too much and try to see how much the accessibility that's changed everything because, you know, I do a lot of work at the end of life stuff. They can't be in the room. It wouldn't even be responsible for us to be in the same room. It's opened up so much and even to work in the prisons now. We could talk to people that are on the other side of that wall. It's brought a lot of gifts to my life.

[A]

A lot of people are saying in the comments that they don't think of this as digital. Like this really is their Sangha. I love to hear that. That's what gets me out of bed. That's what I want to do. So I have some questions for you from the Sangha. I might mangle the pronunciation of this, so apologies in advance, but I think it's Cage Smith, please Have VF talk about soft belly practice from one who consistently has a tough belly.

[B]

Yeah, man, that's my wheelhouse, bro. Thanks for teeing that up. I mean, you know, I don't know about you, but I really felt the bracing against life, just moving to my world, moving through my days. When Steven Levine started talking about soft belly, I was just like, are you out of your mind? What are you talking about? Because, you know, we come from this world where it's like six pack abs and, you know, everybody's armored up. And I had no idea how the nervous system really follows the belly softening. So when we talk about the armoring that naturally happens in life, particularly if you've had a hard run of it, how do we let that all float in, something softer? That's really the key. It's not that I have to push away these difficulties. It's more like, okay, can I be a bit broader in my awareness and how I'm holding things and say, okay, I don't have to have my guard up so hard. Can I just let myself feel a little bit more? Can it be held with care? Like, that's a big question for me, is like, can I allow it? So sometimes we'll lose someone we love, or somebody has a brand new baby, or somebody gets married, whatever the event is. Where's my belly in this? So I'm in the habit of reaching to my belly because that's kind of like the seat of my practice. So usually if I'm sitting, there's a point in every sit where I reach out to myself. There's a way to connect with that part of myself. It kind of lands me in the body and I feel the softness. It doesn't matter what tightens my belly up. So can I come back home and just soften even a little bit? I felt a great release of what Steven used to call unattended sorrow. What I noticed, Dan, is when I started allowing that to be there more, I had more access to joy, more access to happiness. Because when we armor up those parts of our hearts, it's not just the difficult that we keep out. Right? So the soft belly has been a 30 year practice for me. And some days it feels possible. In other days I just have to let the hardness float in, something softer.

[A]

I'm curious, when you say the belly, are you using that as interchangeable with the body or is this something specific about the belly?

[B]

Well, I think the belly holds a lot. A lot is stored in the belly. There's a lot of nerves even Call it the second brain in the belly.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So that's where I mostly feel things. When something changes for me, I can feel the breathing stop. I can feel the belly tighten. I have a lot of awareness about my belly just from practicing. And so I am using them interchangeably. But I don't usually feel those things in my legs, my arms, my hands, even my feet. My feet are unaffected. So the way I practice with my feet is just that fundamental okayness of touching the floor. I probably do that at least a dozen times a day where I'll be moving faster than I want to move. And then I'll say, hold on a second. I just sit down. I just feel that. Not the story, not the concept, but what's the felt sense of my feet touching the floor? It's like, oh, I got to kind of remind myself, you're actually okay right now. It's like, oh, cool. All right, begin again. You know what I mean?

[A]

I, I, I agree about the arms, legs and feet probably not being where you're storing or at least for, at least for me, where I'm storing my stuff. But I do feel a lot of it in the chest, you know, like a swarm of bees in the chest or sort of like a separating wound in the chest a couple of inches north of the solar plexus or the heart. So for me, it's not just the belly. Although I would agree the belly is an incredibly potent spot.

[B]

Yeah. I mean, I'm not using it interchangeable with the body, but I am using it interchangeably with the trunk.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Cause I do have a lot of sensations in the heart that's higher. And even in the throat. Right. Sometimes when my anxiety comes up, that's where it comes. Right. So here I am, here's this feeling. Can I tend to it? The first part for me is always the same. This is not mind. I'm not the origin story of anxiety. So then I open up. Okay. How many beings know this feeling? Billions. Okay. Now I'm in the presence of Sangha. Right. That's the route for me on how I deal with difficulty when it arrives in the body.

[A]

Reminds me a little bit of. Are you familiar with the work of Kristin Neff?

[B]

Oh, of course.

[A]

For people who don't know her, she's really the godmother of self compassion, which isn't an ooey gooey concept. It is a rich field of study for psychologists. She is a researcher at the University of Texas in Austin. And she has this kind of three part strategy for dealing with hard Moments like anxiety. The first is to just be mindful of it. Oh, yeah. Yep, this is anxiety. This sucks. The second and is to call to mind what she calls common humanity. A billion people are probably feeling exactly what I'm feeling right now. I'm in the presence of Sangha. And then the third is, can you talk to yourself the way you would talk to your kid or to a good friend? And, you know, this can be accompanied by a hand on the. On the chest or the belly. And I found it to be. I had a lot of resistance, just like you said before, being dragged kicking and screaming toward liberation. It seemed cheesy. And with all of my sort of male of a certain age conditioning, I was like, fuck that. I don't. I'm not. I'm not doing any of that, but it really is helpful. I. As much as I hate to admit it.

[B]

Yeah, man. I mean, I lived it for years. I just sent rays of hate toward the teacher. I was like, I hope you can feel that because I'm sending something toward you. Literally, I was just hating it. And then that ended up being. Would actually help. That's what released so many. Yeah. A lifetime of holding. So, you know, it's always the same, right? And that's why eclecticism is so dangerous. Because, you know, I would, oh, I want to chant with the Sufis and I want to break bread with the Krishnas. Want to, like, hang out with the Buddhists. I was like, yeah, as long as I pick and choose, I'll always cherry pick around what's actually going to transform me. You know what I mean? Because I just don't want to do what's uncomfortable. That's why any path you want to do, the completeness of it. There's nothing wrong with being inspired by other paths, but I just see, like, whatever you're doing, just do the whole thing. That way you get the benefits that actually have that transformational quality.

[A]

If you're going to eat a burrito, eat the burrito.

[B]

The whole thing, bro.

[A]

Yeah, I feel you. Joyce Fisher has a question. Joyce says I'm struggling with staying focused in my meditations, which in turn fuels my skeptic mind to not do it. I know the benefits of meditation, but the story I find myself telling is I'm too stressed to meditate, which obviously feeds the anxiety. Suggestions. I always love Vinnie's perspective, and I can relate to him so much. I am confident you guys will help me.

[B]

This is Mara, right? This is the mind appearing real again. You have this intention, and then the Mind's like, ah, this is too much. Right? It's such an immersive experience, thinking. It's so convincing. And it's all about me. That's how we know you're. You know, we're really mired and delusion at that point, right? So as long as we make practice optional, there'll be a thousand reasons to not do it. It's like, I had a hard day. I had a great day. I don't even need to meditate. Like, we're trying to fix something, right? So for me, it's like, okay, can I hear those thoughts and show up anyway? Can I actually just say, all right, I'm stressed. I actually need this more than anything else is to just rest my nervous system for a few minutes. That would be a great gift to someone that's stressed out. Just arrive. And that's why I always try to start with, don't try to meditate. Stop with all the striving. Just let yourself rest in your own awareness. Right. Just for a few minutes. That does wonders. But as long as we believe the thoughts, then we're kind of lost. We're lost in the world of the mind where nothing is ever enough. Yeah. How do you do it when you don't want to sit?

[A]

Well, it depends what the perceived obstacle is.

[B]

Let's think Joyce was talking about stress. So what do you do? I could imagine you have some stress, Dan.

[A]

Yeah, I have a little bit of stress sometimes. Not right now, but I don't have that problem. I'm 16 years into this thing. I know that if I'm stressed, it's mindfulness bell to go sit. It's more like, oh, today I've run out of time, or I'm too tired, or I'm too physically restless. Because I get a lot of physical restlessness, which is one of my little bugaboos. So in those scenarios, I allow myself to do a different kind of meditation. Walking meditation is great when you're tired or restless. I don't really ever quote, unquote, let myself off the hook. Not because I'm kicking my own ass to do this thing, although I have had those stages in my practice, but more because I've done it long enough to know that when I don't do it, my inner dialogue is just so much more obnoxious.

[B]

Yeah, I love the walking instruction too, you know. You ever heard a. Do you know the Buddhist? She was a German nun. Ayakema.

[A]

I've heard her name, but I don't know her.

[B]

She Had a phrase that I used in my walking and it just changed everything. That was another thing I just thought was bullshit, you know, I was like, oh, walking cool. You know, you're on these like 16 hour a day meditation retreats and it's like, oh, you get to take a piss, grab some tea, grab a cookie, you know what I mean? And then 10 years in I realized, dude, you're only doing half the retreat. So I read these words from Maya Kemma. She would take a step and have a little mantra and there was like three steps. Basically I was like, nowhere to go, nothing to get, no one to be. Nowhere to go, nothing to get, no one to be. And my awareness would become panoramic in a certain way because it wasn't vinny trying to be a good Buddhist and walking in nature or whatever I was doing. It wasn't shrouded or tainted with identity and self. It allowed awareness. There's nowhere to go, there's nothing to get here, there's no one to be. It was very profound for me.

[A]

I've heard it rendered as nowhere to go, nothing to do, it's already here.

[B]

I like that too. Yeah, I think the no one to be for me is that, that's the linchpin. That's the one. You know, there's so much self in here. So I like that. The becoming piece is just so exhausting.

[A]

Say a little bit more about that is a bit of a Buddhist term of art becoming. What does it mean to you?

[B]

In some sense it's like postponing arrival because I'm overcoming something. I'm going to become a teacher, I'm going to become more compassionate. It's always down the road a bit. So there's this delusion baked into it because it, it's reaching for something that's not here, right? So I'm becoming anytime I can let myself off that hook. It's like you said with how you heard that I chemical. It's already here, right? So no one to be is pointing at the same thing. That's a great kindness that we give to ourselves. That I'm not on my way somewhere, I'm right here. If the Dogen said if the truth is anywhere, it's right here. Keep setting the compass to right here. Not when I finish this retreat or when I find the right teacher or when I sit every day, that's when it's going to be on. It's all bullshit. It's three card monsters. Like holy shit man, I'm running game on myself. Okay? Come back right here, right now. Here we are.

[A]

You said that there's no one to be, and it's already here, kind of pointing to the same thing. Another phrase that for me at least, seems to point in that same direction is the meditation instruction that Joseph Goldstein has been using recently. What is being known?

[B]

Yeah, I mean, Joseph, man, what a gift. This, this. This. What is being known? Right. That's kind of a little bit of the same flavor of how I tried to end the meditation around, like, what is awareness aware of? Right? Because it's always fear of something.

[A]

Right?

[B]

And so there's something about just allowing ourselves to stay current because it's always fresh. Awareness is always being aware. I love that. Thanks for sharing that, bro.

[A]

It's a pleasure. Let's see if I can sneak in another question or two. I do want to make one quick comment. Rhonda commented that sometimes gearing down our nervous system in order to sit is difficult, especially for people with adhd. And I just wanted to highlight for you, Rhonda, that that. That is very real. This is why I'm a big proponent of walking meditation. For people who really have a lot of trouble sitting still. It can be a great warmup practice. It can be a great supplementary practice. It can be something you do instead. And it's not cheating. It's not recess. It's not. I mean, it's. It's. It's real practice. So it's not something you need to feel guilty about. Stacy writes, I love Vinnie, no question. I just wanted you to hear that. Maria writes, vinnie, how can we have compassion and develop forgiveness for evildoers? This is a tough one for me.

[B]

Who is that not tough for? You know what I mean? Like evildoers. That's really, really difficult. Right? So someone who's actively doing harm, let's say.

[A]

Right?

[B]

Because I'm not sure I believe in evil. I've been working in prisons for decades, and I have yet to find evil. But I think people do a lot of unskillful things and very desperate, you know, And I myself have done very bad things. So how do we rectify that in this boundless freedom and heart space that we're exploring? I try to go back to myself and say, all right, I know that every time I've done harm, it's been out of my own pain.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Out of my own confusion. Yeah. So it wasn't malicious. And so I imagine that that's what it's like, that everybody's doing their best now. It's so hard to believe, right? Like, I could believe it in a principle. And then I see what people do in the world, and it's like, damn, cannot believe that is your a game player. You know what I mean? It's really hard to believe, even for the parts of myself, because that's where I want to. I want to start there, and I want to, like, radiate that out. The parts of myself that have done harm, are they forgivable? And a big part of the forgiveness practice is to separate the actor from the action. Some acts unforgivable, but can we look at the actor and say, all right, this is a confused person that's filled their pain out on me or for me, them. And I know what that's like. I've been on this path a while, and I still make incredible mistakes all the time. I just came from my father's 80th birthday this weekend, and my therapist is like, all right, man, how are you orienting toward this weekend? It's been a complicated person for me, you know? And I said, well, I want to go there, and I want to celebrate my freedom in the face of this complicated person. I do love my pop, and I want to celebrate him, and I want to stay in that. Now, did I find myself in a momentary lapse of reason and have him in a headlock at one point? Yes. And then I woke up halfway through the headlock. Hold on. Emancipation, freedom. Okay. Sometimes I can be very forgiving, very open, and other times I feel tighter and I try to see what am I clinging to. What is the story that is sponsoring this suffering? Oh, they shouldn't be like that. They shouldn't do that. Well, that's true, but what am I contributing right now energetically to this world, to this body? So I try to get in touch with that. Can I care about that, you know, harm being caused. Is that natural for me to be compassionate toward the people involved? Yes. I share a short one with you about my wife a little bit. We're living in Oakland, and somebody got mugged on our street, and they. They snatched a pocketbook, and then they hit the woman with a hammer. She got taken away by the ambulance, and my wife was in the bedroom crying. And I went in there and I said, look, she's going to be all right. She says, look, I'm. I'm thinking about the person that hit the person. You know what I mean? What does it take to do something like that to somebody? Sometimes the othering that happens with evil, as we call it, like, can I find Those deluded parts of myself, those desperate parts, because that was the scariest thing in my life for me is when I lost toward my own goodness. Whenever I dedicate the merit at the end of the sid, it's always the same. It's for all beings in all directions, without exception. They remember their goodness, maybe they remember their belonging.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Because if we know that we belong to each other, it's really hard to do harm. So I try to keep that in mind. My wife helps me.

[A]

Well, your wife sounds incredible. And I've been influenced in this regard by Father Gregory Boyle, who also incredible. I'm not a big Christian, but I'm not a Christian at all, actually. But Father Gregory Boyle is an amazing person, deeply influenced by the Dharma and runs the largest organization that works with current former gang members in Los Angeles. And he says that he does not think in terms of good and evil. He thinks in terms of healthy or unhealthy. And I think there's a Native American or indigenous expression, like somebody who does harm is somebody who has no relations. You have to feel really cut off and de. Isolated and armored. To hit somebody in the head with a hammer or to do some of the shit we're seeing in Washington right now, that doesn't mean you don't resist it. That doesn't mean you let a guy with a hammer hit somebody. You can take affirmative action. It just doesn't have to come from the othering and labeling as evil. None of this is a recipe for passivity or quietism or resignation. It's just an orientation inwardly and outwardly that allows you to act fueled by something cleaner, burning than hatred.

[B]

Yeah, well said, Brown. And I love Gregory Boyle's work, man. Homeboy Industries was just. What a beautiful offering. Yeah.

[A]

Anything else in your mind that's worth talking about before I. Before I let you go?

[B]

Yeah, I think it come out of the dowel and it said, you know, I'll just pull it up because it's a lot better than I'll say it. I don't to want the liberated soul it talks about. Right. Liberated is the soul which sees all human behavior as either an act of love or a call for love. How do I understand what I'm witnessing in the world? What am I going to contribute? Right. So you're contributing in your own way. I'm contributing in my own way. I hope whoever asked that question, we're trying to. This is a big old seesaw that we're involved in here. So as much as we're seeing, but we want to do that much on the other side. You know, the. The ancient law is hate doesn't cease by hate.

[A]

Right.

[B]

All our exemplars said this. So what does it really mean to call somebody in even in our imagination? Ray Ram Dice used to have picture of Trump on his altar. That's the advanced course, right? You remember the story about Sharon in India? She almost got abducted. He was with Meningiti. And she finally shows up, and he goes, what happened? She goes, you know, I had to fight somebody to get here to try to take me. And he said, I hope you hit that person over the head with your umbrella with all the love in your heart. I love that, you know, because it's not passive. It's like, look, man, this is a really big old world that we live in, and can I find the places in me that I've done wrong and can I really bring some more goodness into this world?

[A]

You're the best. We've never had this many people come to one of these paid subscriber sessions. I've never seen as many hearts emojis. I know I'm not supposed to be inflating your ego, but you're great, so I appreciate you.

[B]

Thank you so much, Dan. It's a real pleasure to hang out with you again, bro.

[A]

Someday we have to meet in person.

[B]

Yeah, man. First headlocks on me, bro.

[A]

All right, I'll hold you to that.

[B]

To be continued in ways we can't imagine.

[A]

Yeah, exactly. Thank you for doing this, and thanks for everything you're doing for us and for the world.

[B]

Thank you, Dan. Take good care, bro.

[A]

Thank you, everybody. Thanks again to Vinnie. Love that guy. Don't forget, if you want to come to our weekly live meditation and Q A sessions, you can just sign up [e-mail]. if you sign up, you'll also get guided meditations that come with our full length Monday Wednesday episodes. The idea there is that you learn a lot, hopefully listening to the conversation, and then we give you a guided meditation to deepen your understanding. Finally. Thank you so much to everybody who worked so hard on this show. Our producers are Tara Anderson and Eleanor Vasily. Our recording and engineering is handled by the great folks over at Pod People. Lauren Smith is our managing partner. Producer Marissa Schneiderman is our senior producer. DJ Cashmere is our executive producer. And Nick Thorburn of the band Islands wrote our theme.