When You're Afraid to Slow Down — Even Though You Need To

Summary

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Podcast Summary: When You're Afraid to Slow Down — Even Though You Need To

10% Happier with Dan Harris
Guest Host: Hoda Kotb (from NBC’s Making Space)
Date: December 5, 2025

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Episode Overview

In this introspective crossover episode, Dan Harris, veteran journalist and host of 10% Happier, is interviewed by Hoda Kotb, herself a former network morning anchor now venturing into the wellness space. They candidly discuss what it means to walk away from prestigious, high-adrenaline careers to pursue inner growth, wellness, and meaning. Their conversation weaves in mental health, meditation, the aftermath of trauma, the myth and reality of reinvention, and building a fulfilling life outside the grind.

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Key Discussion Points

1. Facing The Fear of Change

• Hoda asks Dan about his leap from ABC News to wellness.
  • Dan: “I’m still terrified every day.” [06:54]
  • Recalls painter who said she was terrified every day but never let it stop her.
  • Lives with anxiety and panic disorder, but the key is “you just have to do it anyway.” [07:07]

2. Early Life: Privilege, Rebellion, and Responsibility

• Dan describes an “incredibly cushy” suburban upbringing with physician parents; he felt well-loved and supported ([08:25]).
• Insisted he had “all the advantages” and feels a responsibility to give back:
  • “With great power comes great responsibility…Both my son and I came out of the right wombs. There’s responsibility that comes with that.” [11:07]

3. Adventures & Adrenaline, Depression & Addiction

• Journalism, ambition, and the thrill of war reporting:
  • “I’ve always had these two tracks: one being terrified on the regular, the other just being interested in seeing how far I can push things.” [10:42]
• Depression and drug use began after the adrenaline of war zones faded:
  • “Everything seemed gray compared to that…There’s nothing more thrilling than the bullet that misses you.” [15:17]
  • First tried cocaine in his early 30s after 9/11, began using it occasionally to self-medicate. [17:00]

4. The On-Air Panic Attack: A Turning Point

• Panic attack on Good Morning America became his most recognized moment:
  • “Of 21 years at ABC News, that’s the best known thing I ever did.” [18:05]
  • Reflections on reinvention: “You really can’t change what you’re known for…But anybody can reinvent themselves anytime.” [18:40]

5. The Leap to Wellness and Meditation

• Dan describes years “clinging to two things”: TV news and the side hustle (book, podcast, app). [19:21]
  • Only made the leap when he felt financially safe, recognizing deep-seated fears inherited from his family’s past. [21:10]
  • “What I had built in my side hustle was enough and I could leave, and I wouldn’t…be financially unsafe.” [21:10]

6. Meditation's True Impact

• 10% Happier book and podcast arose from skepticism and a desire to counter self-help hyperbole:
  • “I was trying to come up with a title that would counter program against some of the over-promising in the self-help world.” [19:21]
• Meditation’s main gift:
  • “To learn to not take my thoughts so seriously and, by extension, not to take myself so seriously. That kind of easing up…changes your relationships, and that’s a positive cycle.” [23:24]
• The challenge with teaching meditation: “We’re teaching it wrong often…Pretty much anybody can do it.” [23:24]

7. Silent Retreats & Self-Acceptance

• Dan details a 10-day silent meditation retreat:
  • “I went on this retreat because…I needed something to write about. I hated it at first…I hated everything about it. But it was transformative.” [25:18]
  • Key insight: “Everything’s changing all the time…We all know it, but we don’t live as if we know it. Meditation helps you see your thoughts in a different way—they’re not tiny dictators.” [27:18-27:41]

8. Redefining Success and Meaning

• Both Hoda and Dan describe arriving at professional ‘highs’—yet feeling something essential was missing.
  • Hoda: "All of the things…relationship, work, all the things felt fine, but not right." [30:39]
  • Dan: “The Buddha…said life is dukkha, meaning: life is unsatisfying in some way. If you’re paying attention, there’s kind of an 'off-ness’.” [29:22]
• Universal yearning for deeper meaning—"a spiritual or psychological yearning." [29:23]

9. Navigating Reinvention

• Hoda describes her own leap from TV: a mix of excitement and fear.
  • “For me…used to a schedule, a life, travel, instant interactions in the newsroom…all these bits and pieces I had been missing.” [31:46]
  • On the process: “It’s totally scary too…Is it going to work? Do you have regrets?” [33:21]
• Dan’s advice:
  • “Build an audience that is really loyal to you…Moving out of the broadcast mentality…serving [an audience that cares] has been transformative.” [34:52]

10. Leadership, Self-Compassion & the 360 Review

• Dan recounts a daunting 360 review including family, colleagues, and friends, four years post-panic attack.
  • “It was devastating…I was sort of aloof and emotionally unavailable and often dismissive and rushed and overcommitted…All the things I learned from my role models in news.” [38:06–38:17]
• Spent years working to change (“the next 360 was completely different”).
  • The journey continues: “There’s no arrival at some destination…it’s always a working process." [38:57]
  • Title for the next book: “Me: A Love Story…True self-love is the opposite of narcissism.” [39:08]

11. Relationships: The True “Happiness Hack”

• Dan’s insight:
  • “The most important variable, if you want to live forever and be happy and healthy…is quality of your relationships. That’s it. Stress is what kills us, and the best way to regulate your stress is to have positive relationships.” [40:59]
  • “Social fitness” is as vital as mental and physical fitness. [41:35]

12. The Privilege and Practice of “Enough”

• Dan’s ideal day is one of autonomy, meaningful work, meditation, exercise, family—and he acknowledges the privilege of such freedom. [42:08–43:22]
• Final reflection: “One question that might be helpful to meditate on is: What’s enough?” [45:50]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Dan Harris (On Fear & Ambition):
  • “There’s a great quote…a female painter…said she’s been terrified every day of her life, but she never let that stop her from doing anything.” [06:54]
• On the Post-High Letdown:
  • “Everything seemed gray compared to that [war reporting].” [15:25]
• On Meditation:
  • “The main impact: learn not to take my thoughts so seriously…and not to take myself so seriously.” [23:24]
• On Reinvention:
  • “You really can’t change what you’re known for…But anybody can reinvent themselves anytime.” [18:45]
• On Silent Retreats:
  • “At first, I hated everyone there and I hated everything about it. But it was transformative.” [25:18]
• On Relationships:
  • “The most important variable…is the quality of your relationships.” [40:59]
• On Enough:
  • “What’s enough? You have to figure it out for yourself.” [45:50]
• Fisherman Story (shared by Hoda):
  • “He goes, ‘Buddy, I already got that.’ And that’s what we’re all striving for—the thing we probably had when we were younger.” [44:58]

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Important Timestamps

• [06:54] – Dan describes daily fear and anxiety
• [10:42] – Duality: anxiety vs. thrill-seeking
• [15:17] – Addiction to adrenaline, aftermath of war reporting
• [17:00] – First cocaine use and depression
• [18:05] – Reflecting on the infamous on-air panic attack
• [21:10] – The true “leap”: feeling financially safe enough to leave TV
• [23:24] – Meditation’s real impact: loosening grip on thoughts and self
• [25:18] – The rigors and transformation of the silent retreat
• [27:41] – How meditation helps with “tiny dictator” thoughts
• [29:22] – “Life is dukkha”: confronting fundamental dissatisfaction
• [40:59] – The critical importance of relationships (“social fitness”)
• [45:50] – Final reflection: “What’s enough?”

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Tone & Language

The conversation is warm, frank, lightly self-deprecating, and honest about privilege, failure, self-doubt, and the persistent challenge of slowing down and living meaningfully. Both Hoda and Dan model openness and “cathartic normalization” by sharing fears, shortcomings, and the messy, nonlinear nature of self-growth.

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For First-Time Listeners

This episode offers an authentic look at the risks and rewards of leaving a successful but unsatisfying path for personal growth. It’s also a practical, nuanced guide to integrating wellness tools like meditation, and a meditation on the true meaning of “success,” “enough,” and what makes for lasting happiness.

Transcript

[Dan Harris]

Foreign.

This is the 10% Happier podcast. I'm Dan Harris.

Okay everybody, how we doing?

Today we're going to talk about how to keep your mind calm in a chaotic world.

What you're about to hear is an interview with me. Actually, it was conducted by my new friend Hoda Kapi, who's another veteran of network morning television.

Hoda was, as you may know, for.

Many years the co anchor of the Today show on NBC, which was our arch rival when I was working at Good Morning America. Now, among other things, Hoda hosts her own podcast which is called Making Space. If you like it, you should go subscribe to the show. Before we dive in, just a lightning quick reminder to come check out what we're doing over on danharris.com if you sign up, you get custom meditations that come with all of our full length Monday, Wednesday episodes on the show. Those meditations are designed to help you take what you learn on the show.

And as I like to say, pound.

Them into your neurons. If you sign up, you'll also get invited to our weekly live meditation and Q and A sessions, which we do Every Tuesday at 4 Eastern. All right, we'll get started with me and Hoda Kotb on Making Space right after this. I've got a big trip coming up. I'm very excited about this. My family and I are flying to Washington to go to a Washington Commanders football game. As you may have heard me mention before, my beloved brother in law Jack is pro scout for the Commanders. Love Jack, love the Commanders, love their head coach who was on this show not long ago. Anyway, I'm excited about this trip and many of us are heading into a period of time when we're all taking vacation. It's the holiday season and I've got an idea for you while you're away, you could use that as an opportunity to host your home on Airbnb. I love staying in welcoming homes that I book on Airbnb and it got me thinking my home could do the same for somebody else. I put so much work into this house. My wife put most of the work in, but we put a lot of time and energy into this place. So why not use it as a spot to help other people feel comfortable while they are away from home? And think about it. If you host your home on Airbnb while you're traveling, it's a great way to offset some of the costs of your own trip. You get paid for taking a vacation and the extra income you make can be put toward an upcoming trip A splurge. You've been eyeing home improvement projects. So if you've got some holiday travel or any other travel coming up, hosting is a pretty cool and unique way to make some of your money back. Your home might be worth more than you think. Find out how [e-mail] host.

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[Hoda Kotb]

Have you ever met somebody and then you realized, hang on a second, their path is almost parallel to mine, except they are ever so slightly ahead of me time wise. And then you just want to know more, you want to ask more, you want to seek more, you have all the questions. Well, that's the deal for me today. So Dan Harris was a TV news journalist who covered everything from war zones to hurricanes to daily topics. He devoted a lot of his life to journalism and then he felt a calling to explore the wellness space. Does that sound familiar? Oh yeah, it does. Dan spent 21 years on network news. From a career standpoint, he had it all. But on the inside, it was a very different story. Dan was quietly struggling with anxiety, depression, and addiction. He masked it well on the air until one day he suffered a panic attack on live tv. And that was the moment everything shifted. Dan ultimately decided to step away from television to explore a different path, one of wellness and treatment. He then wrote the best selling book 10% Happier, which has since become a hit podcast. The success, a testament to his commitment to not over promise happiness, but instead offering guidance on how to get just 10% closer to happy. Dan joins me today in a very introspective and raw way. He'll share what he's learned from stepping away and leaning in. I've got my pen and paper ready, and I hope you do too. I'm Hoda Kotb. Welcome to my podcast, Making Space.

So I've been waiting for this interview for a while because I feel like you and I are living parallel lives.

You're way ahead of me, but I'm on your track. And I just wanted to ask, like.

Initially, when you made the leap from ABC to this whole new world in wellness, were you terrified midair or did you know, like, okay, I know exactly where I'm going and I know why.

[Dan Harris]

I'm still terrified every day.

[Hoda Kotb]

Are you?

[Dan Harris]

Yeah. I mean, there's a great quote from. I'm forgetting her name. She's a female painter who said she's been terrified every day of her life, but she never let that stop her from doing anything.

[Hoda Kotb]

Oh.

[Dan Harris]

And, you know, I live with anxiety and panic disorder, and it is a big part of my life. And I do all the I want to do. That's how you do it. Yeah. You just have to do it.

[Hoda Kotb]

You just got to do it anyway.

[Dan Harris]

Yes.

[Hoda Kotb]

Okay. Just. I want you to take me back, because I knew you from turning on the TV and looking at the competition on abc, and there you always were. Was journalism your thing since you were young?

[Dan Harris]

No.

[Hoda Kotb]

No.

[Dan Harris]

I had journalism and the movies mixed up in my mind. When I was young, I. I wanted to do something glamorous.

[Hoda Kotb]

Yeah.

[Dan Harris]

And I went to film school here at NYU in New York City for a semester. I. I went to a liberal arts college in Maine, but I took a semester and went to film school and realized very quickly I was bad at the movies. I had no real talent for that. But I took a documentary class when I was there, and I got very interested in the news at that point. And then I, as you know, I It's not that glamorous of a profession, especially at the beginning. Yeah, when I was a local news reporter in Bangor, Maine, right out of college. And then I moved to. Kept moving south to Portland, Maine, and then Boston and then finally New York. But I loved it. You know, it was an incredible career until I decided to do something else.

[Hoda Kotb]

Until it wasn't. Yeah, for you.

So let's go back a little bit.

Further because I want to know about you before I get into your kind of career path. So when you were just a kid, what was your upbringing like? How would you describe your childhood?

[Dan Harris]

Very cushy, sort of leafy suburb of Boston and parents were academic physicians and they're now retired. I had all the advantages one can have in life. My parents loved each other, loved us. They were super supportive. We were upper middle class.

[Hoda Kotb]

Was it an open kind of house where you could tell your parents when something was bugging and all that stuff?

[Dan Harris]

When I think back, we all have either capital T or small T traumas in our childhood. I definitely don't have any capital T traumas, but to the extent that the world became scary for me, I don't recall it being at home. I recall it being as I moved through the world. You know, I'm 53, so growing up in the 70s and 80s as a boy, there was a lot of bullying and you know, the sort of lesser versions of masculinity that I encountered. And that was where I found the struggles of being alive. But I remember home. It's possible I'm idealizing this, but I remember home as a very comfortable place.

[Hoda Kotb]

Were you an athlete when you were a kid?

[Dan Harris]

I attempted it, but that wasn't very good.

[Hoda Kotb]

What was? Did you have like a high school superlative? Like, how were you viewed in school?

[Dan Harris]

I had a really successful weed business in my freshman year. Did you really? Yeah, yeah.

I was really into music. I really. I played the drums. I still play the drums. I have a 10 year old son, he also plays the drums. So I was the way other kids kind of knew the shortstop for the Milwaukee brewers or whatever. I knew the bass player for, you know, the Minutemen or whatever it was. I was really, really obsessed with indie rock or alternative rock and what about.

[Hoda Kotb]

The selling weed thing? What was going on there?

[Dan Harris]

You know, this was an era where we were not in the helicopter parent era. So we were feral kids, latchkey kids. My parents both worked.

[Hoda Kotb]

Did you do it for the money? Is that why you did it? You wanted to make cash?

[Dan Harris]

I really had a lifelong interest in pushing the limits of. It's funny because I have lifelong anxiety too. But I also got really. I really liked the idea of breaking the law, breaking the rules. And that was what got me interested in covering combat too. Because it felt like you were, you know, you should not be here.

[Hoda Kotb]

Yes.

[Dan Harris]

You know, and when I first got into covering combat, like we didn't have rules around. You should wear Kevlar. Wear a helmet. I didn't wear a helmet. This is embarrassing. I didn't wear a helmet because it didn't look good on tv.

So like I. I've always had these two tracks of one being, you know, terrified on the regular and the. And the other track of just being interested in seeing how far it can push things.

[Hoda Kotb]

Did you ever in trouble for any of the stuff in school?

[Dan Harris]

Did I ever get in trouble? Yeah, I got in trouble a little bit. But I got arrested a few times. Yeah, not for weed, by the way.

[Hoda Kotb]

I thought you were just this total Roger, straight hair kid who got A's.

And B's in school and went on to J school.

[Dan Harris]

I did terribly in high school. Did you? Yes. And I got into college because I cleaned it up toward the end. And also my dad knew the dean of the college where I went. So I had like. When I say I had all the advantages in life, I really had all the advantages. And I try to keep that in mind now. It's something I talk to my son about because he has even more advantages than I did. We talk about Peter Parker's uncle. What? Spider Man's uncle. He said with great power comes great responsibility. So I don't lecture my son about many things, but this is the one of them. Both my son and I came out of the right wombs. We just got really lucky. And there's responsibility that comes with that. He can choose how he wants to give back. I've made my choices.

[Hoda Kotb]

That's a must.

So if you didn't do well in.

High school and you go into college cause your dad kind of helps you. How do you do well in college? What turned it around? Or did. Did it get turned?

[Dan Harris]

No, I. I really did turn it around. I remember the first time I called my dad and told him what my. He was on a business trip in Puerto Rico and I called him because I got my report card for my first semester at Cobley College and it was all A's and he cried because I was such a rotten kid in high school. I have chills and I made a decision. I remember exactly where I was. I Was driving my crappy Honda Accord. I was a pizza delivery man in the summer between high school and college, and I was driving some and I decided, you know, I'm going to crush it in college.

[Hoda Kotb]

Just like that.

[Dan Harris]

Yeah. And I just went for it.

[Hoda Kotb]

That's shocking.

[Dan Harris]

I know.

[Hoda Kotb]

So sometimes you think that if you just make a decision, it can happen. I mean, just like that.

[Dan Harris]

I mean, you have to do the work. Yeah.

[Hoda Kotb]

You got to do the work.

[Dan Harris]

Yeah. I didn't know that I was going to get straight A's. I just knew that I was going to apply myself for the first time, really. And the thing about college is, unlike in high school, you can study what you want. So I was picking the courses that I was interested in. And honestly, if I had worked harder in high school, I might have gone to a different college. So there was a little bit of innate unfairness there.

[Hoda Kotb]

When did you think, or when do you think your dad was proudest of you in your life?

[Dan Harris]

That's a really good question. I don't know that moment for sure.

[Hoda Kotb]

I guess I was gonna say that sounds like one of the top.

[Dan Harris]

Yeah. Well, I graduated with honors, and that was. Although I graduated with honors, my parents were really excited, and when they read out my name for the diploma, they called me David Harris.

They were. I thought that was funny. My parents really pissed about that. And, you know, they were reluctant for me to go into news because they had come up through this sort of buttoned up medical school training. But eventually they got very excited about my being a newsman. They were not happy about me writing a book that talked about cocaine. So that was a dicey moment.

[Hoda Kotb]

When you talk about the drugs, you mentioned high school, you were selling drugs.

[Dan Harris]

Yeah.

[Hoda Kotb]

When did you first use drugs yourself?

[Dan Harris]

You know, it's funny, I sold weed in high school and smoked a little bit of weed in high school, but I actually wasn't. I didn't really. I still don't like marijuana. And so I was not a real drug user at all. Yeah. Between college and my early 30s. So my 20s were really what you think I was before you said Roger Straight Arrow. Like, Roger Straight. Yeah, I was Roger Straight arrow. In my 20s, I was a local news anchor. And then I got to ABC News in my. At 28.

[Hoda Kotb]

Wow.

[Dan Harris]

And I was a really. I was pretty straight edge. I drank a little bit, but nothing really more than that. And then after 9, 11, I spent a lot of time in Iraq and Afghanistan and Israel, the West Bank, Gaza, that whole thing.

[Hoda Kotb]

Yeah.

[Dan Harris]

And then I got depressed and Started to self medicate with recreation. That's when I did cocaine for the first time.

[Hoda Kotb]

So the depression came from witnessing things overseas or just processing 9, 11.

[Dan Harris]

I think the depression really was a kind of addiction to the adrenaline of being overseas and feeling like what could be more exciting? You're. What's the expression, I think commonly attributed to Winston Churchill. There's nothing more thrilling than the bullet that misses you. And the bullets all missed. I had a lot of friends who got hit, who either died or got badly injured.

[Hoda Kotb]

So witnessing horrible things, covering horrible things and all of those things, but it was the adrenaline rush of that I would get home.

[Dan Harris]

And even though my life was pretty exciting, I was my early 30s and covering presidential campaigns and all that stuff, everything seemed gray compared to that. I remember one time I was. It was in the middle of the second intifada, so early aughts, and I was kind of cycling back and forth between being in Israel, West Bank, Gaza and being at home. And I came home from one trip and I was irritable. I was getting in fights with my bosses.

[Hoda Kotb]

Yeah.

[Dan Harris]

And they actually sent me back because I was like a pain in the ass. And I landed in Tel Aviv. I was jet lagged and we went right into the west bank to cover this big protest that was happening and we covered it and there were gunshots and I had to dive into a ditch and. And then I got in the car and we were driving back to the hotel in Jerusalem. We stopped by the side of the road to eat some watermelon, fresh watermelon. And I was eating watermelon, somewhat dazed from the jet lag. And I was like, oh, I feel better.

[Hoda Kotb]

Isn't that so crazy?

[Dan Harris]

It's crazy.

[Hoda Kotb]

So you needed that.

[Dan Harris]

Yes.

[Hoda Kotb]

Adrenaline.

[Dan Harris]

Yes.

[Hoda Kotb]

That's a hard thing to keep, I mean, to keep that level high.

[Dan Harris]

So it's a drug. Yeah, it is a drug in and of itself. And I think a lot of people in our industry get addicted to it. And we see, you know, their private lives can be tumultuous as a result.

[Hoda Kotb]

You weren't married at the time. That was.

[Dan Harris]

No.

[Hoda Kotb]

Okay.

[Dan Harris]

You're aggressively not married yet, so you're.

[Hoda Kotb]

Going home and that's when you decide to try cocaine. Just something to give you that rush, that high felt.

[Dan Harris]

I had an extended period of time where I felt off and I was doing all these medical tests and in hindsight's a little funny because I was really convinced I had some sort of physiological problem. I felt terrible all the time. Yeah. And I was at a party and somebody offered me cocaine. And that had happened before, but I had always said no. I was terrified. I grew up in the just say no era.

[Hoda Kotb]

Yeah.

[Dan Harris]

And I said, yeah, I'll try it. And it made me feel better immediately. But the next morning, it didn't feel good. But in that moment, so did.

[Hoda Kotb]

That's when the use started?

[Dan Harris]

Yes.

[Hoda Kotb]

Okay.

[Dan Harris]

Yeah.

[Hoda Kotb]

How bad did it get?

[Dan Harris]

Not that bad, honestly. It wasn't like I wasn't high on the air when I had my now infamous panic attack, but it was kind of ambient use. I would use it on the weekends and not every weekend because often I was still traveling and covering big events. But yeah, once in a while I would use cocaine.

[Hoda Kotb]

So you're using. And the infamous panic attack that you referred to, if people don't know you had been anchoring. So it wasn't like it wasn't your first day. We weren't just. Just you'd been doing it. But for some reason, on that day when you filled in for Robin Roberts, something inside you just. Something happened.

[Dan Harris]

What?

[Hoda Kotb]

What went down? What happened?

[Dan Harris]

It's crazy. I was at ABC News for 21 years. That's the. The best known thing I ever did.

And you will find this, too. I mean, I know we're going to talk about your career transition, which I'm really interested in. I've been out for three and a half years. Like, to the extent that anybody ever comes up and talks to me.

[Hoda Kotb]

Yeah.

[Dan Harris]

It's never about the news.

[Hoda Kotb]

Never?

[Dan Harris]

Never. It's always about the other stuff.

[Hoda Kotb]

Wow.

[Dan Harris]

It's almost like it didn't happen like it happened for me, but, like, it's not part of. Wow. Consciousness. To the extent that anybody knows who I am, I don't think that's what they think about.

[Hoda Kotb]

Wow. Well, I want to get to what they do know you for now.

[Dan Harris]

You really can't change what you're known for. Yeah, absolutely.

[Hoda Kotb]

Okay.

[Dan Harris]

Anybody can. I mean, for anybody listening who may or may not have a public profile to the extent that that even matters, like, you can reinvent yourself anytime.

[Hoda Kotb]

We'll be right back with more from Dan Harris after this.

So you're a news person for all these years.

[Dan Harris]

Yes.

[Hoda Kotb]

Tell me about the leap. Why don't we just go there? Tell me about the leap.

[Dan Harris]

Well, it's honestly less courageous than what you're doing because I really was clinging to two things at the same time for a long time. So I wrote a book about meditation in 2014. It's called 10% happier. It basically told the story of Me having this panic attack on the air and how I learned that it was the result of cocaine afterwards. And then I did therapy for a couple of years and through that got interested in meditation. It had a big effect on me, although I guess that might be belied by the title 10% happier. But I was trying to come up with a title that would counter program against some of the over promising that I see in the self help world. And just for the record, I do believe that 10% compounds annually that there's a mysteriously cumulative nature to meditation and many other forms of self development, self growth, self improvement. So anyway, I wrote this book, came out in 2014 and I did not, Barbara Walters literally told me, don't quit your day job. So I did not think that it was going to do anything. But I had the backing of the biggest media company in the world, Disney, and they promoted the hell out of this book. And the book got really popular and I did not expect that. And it was great. It was really cool. And then I started a podcast and a meditation app and giving speeches and writing more books and it kind of swallowed my life. But I also really loved being a journalist and I had this cool job. At the time I was anchoring the weekend editions of Good Morning America, sort of like the B team. You were on the A team. And I was also anchoring Nightline. And they gave me kind of carte blanche to go all over the world and do these investigative stories. And so I really love that.

[Hoda Kotb]

Great gig.

[Dan Harris]

And I was also afraid of giving it up. So it took seven or eight years of doing two things at once before I ultimately quit.

[Hoda Kotb]

What was the tipping point?

[Dan Harris]

Realizing that I would be financially safe? Oh, I just, I somehow I just came to the realization that what I had built in my side hustle was enough and I could leave and it would, I wouldn't. I do, I do have part of my anxiety and I've learned a little bit more about this in recent years is around finances, even though it's irrational. Like I never had any financial problems in my life and this is part of my good fortune for which I'm really, really grateful. And yet I have this kind of ambient financial fear. I learned a little bit about my family history. I had a great grandfather who was a Russian immigrant and a hustler and a con and got indicted in the 30s and lost everything and took his own life in the family kitchen. And I realized like that kind of, that's in my nervous system. And it's really helpful to know that Actually. And anyway, so once I kind of realized that I was safe, I made the leap and I went to ABC and I said, can you let me out of my contract and can you also give me my podcast? And there was some back and forth and some negotiation, and ultimately they let me go.

[Hoda Kotb]

Yeah. So, I mean, you talk about how profound meditation was. I know that people listening have either. Some have tried it, some have heard about it, some say, I can't sit still. I mean, there's a million reasons people don't do it. How profound was the impact it had on you?

[Dan Harris]

Really profound.

[Hoda Kotb]

Yeah.

[Dan Harris]

You know, it's. As I said before, it's cumulative. It's not like the first time I did it, I was, you know, transcending or something like that. I also want to be clear. I'm really not dogmatic. I'm. People should do what works for them. And over time, while I started out as the meditation guy, over time on my show and in my public pronouncements, I've really moved to, like, all forms of doing life better. You know, meditation, therapy, relationships. That I think is actually probably the most important thing. Sleep, exercise, diet, like, the whole package. And I like to present a menu and to be really relaxed and gentle about it. It's hard to form new habits, so I get all of that. And so I'm not trying to make people feel bad about what they're doing in their life now.

[Hoda Kotb]

Right.

[Dan Harris]

I would like to say that there is a lot of evidence behind meditation as a modality.

[Hoda Kotb]

Yeah.

[Dan Harris]

And a lot of people have tried it and feel like they can't do it, but that's because we're teaching it wrong often. And actually, pretty much anybody can do it. And you can talk about how if you want, but for me, it really. What was profound at the beginning and still now, is to learn to not take my thoughts so seriously and really, by extension, not to take myself so seriously. And that kind of easing up, lightening up has a big impact on how you are with other people, and it changes your relationships, and that's a positive cycle, a virtuous cycle.

[Hoda Kotb]

Anger was something you wanted to get to the root of. You wanted to get rid of that. And you went on a silent retreat. How many days? And what impact did that. That retreat have on you?

[Dan Harris]

Just to be clear, I don't think you get rid of things.

[Hoda Kotb]

Yeah.

[Dan Harris]

Aspects of your personality. I think you just come into a different relationship with it. It's like, all right, so my great grandfather was a con man who took his own Life, like, and I have a lot of fear partly as a result of that. There are many other factors. But do I want to exterminate it? No, that will just make it more powerful. Just want to have a. An easy relationship with it so that when it rears its head, I'm not owned by it. And that I think is. That's the nuance that I think is really. And helps people ease up. If you're getting tense around things, it's really hard to. And I still do. Like, I'm. I have the capacity to be a schmuck in many ways. Hence the 10% happier. You asked something that.

[Hoda Kotb]

About the silent retreat.

[Dan Harris]

Like.

That. I just want to be clear. I went on this retreat because I knew at this point I was writing a book and I needed some stuff to write about. So I don't think people listening need to feel that meditation necessarily entails a 10 day silent meditation retreat. Yeah, I was looking for, you know, in our training as TV professionals, we're always looking for the extreme things to do. Having said that, it was transformative for me. I hated it at first. I hated everybody there and I hated everything about it.

[Hoda Kotb]

So you're just not taught. What is it? You're not talking at all.

[Dan Harris]

You talk to the teacher every other day for like 15 minutes, but most of the time you're in total silence with a bunch of weirdos in Marin County. And it's everything you think it would be.

[Hoda Kotb]

Are you journaling? What are you doing?

[Dan Harris]

You're meditating all day long. I mean, I took a few notes, but you're not. They tell you don't write anything down.

[Hoda Kotb]

Oh, so you just meditate all day.

[Dan Harris]

That's hardcore. You wake up at like 5 in the morning and first session of seated meditation, then you do walking meditation. Then there's breakfast and walking and sitting, walking, sitting, walking, sitting. Maybe some chores, like you help out in the kitchen, lunch, walking, sitting, walking, sitting. And then there's like a snack in the evenings and more walking and sitting. And then there's a Dharma talk where they talk to you about Buddhism and. And then more walking and sitting and walking and sitting until you collapse every day, all day.

[Hoda Kotb]

That's just one day you just mentioned.

[Dan Harris]

Yes. Wow. And now I do this at least once a year.

[Hoda Kotb]

Wow.

[Dan Harris]

Yes.

[Hoda Kotb]

So what came out of it? Like, what. What did you discover?

[Dan Harris]

I think it's just a deepening of what we described before that you can. You start to see aspects of like, I'm gonna be a little grandiose here. Reality that Everything's changing all the time. So we all know know that everything's changing all the time, but we don't live our lives as if we know that. And we are shocked when our faces look different in the mirror and when our friends die and when our parents die and when the careers we train for get upended by new technologies. And when you sit and just. All the distractions, you know, the distractions are there. The mind is the mind. All the crazy thoughts come. But over time, the mind gets quieter and quieter, and you just start to see how rapidly everything's moving. Oh, my mind is switching from thinking to feeling back pain to hearing birdsong. And the rapidity gets really clear. Then you could take that into your life. It's like, oh, okay. How can I be in a world that is chaotic and cacophonous and changing all the time? And in that process, you start to see your thoughts in a different way. They don't. They're not. As my meditation teacher likes to talk about how our voice, our or the voice in our head is often a tiny dictator. You have a thought, oh, I should eat a sleeve of Oreos, or I should say something that's gonna ruin the next 48 hours of my marriage. And you just do it. And over time, with meditation, it's like, oh, yeah, that's a thought, right?

[Hoda Kotb]

A dumb one.

[Dan Harris]

Or that's hunger. But is it boredom beneath it?

[Hoda Kotb]

Yeah, yeah.

[Dan Harris]

Or is it loneliness? Yeah.

[Hoda Kotb]

You go deeper there.

[Dan Harris]

Yes.

[Hoda Kotb]

So you write this book and you said it's successful. I mean, that's putting it mildly. Like it was a home run all the way. It's still one of those books that people grab. The meditation piece has been big. So you said people now, instead of knowing you for being on tv, which is you've been in front of people for years and years, they know you more for this.

[Dan Harris]

Yeah.

[Hoda Kotb]

Isn't that something?

[Dan Harris]

I'm not saying I'm mobbed on the streets, but to the extent that anybody knows who I am, it's usually this, wow.

[Hoda Kotb]

So redefining isn't so tricky.

[Dan Harris]

I wouldn't say it's not tricky. I would say it is possible.

[Hoda Kotb]

It's possible.

[Dan Harris]

Yes.

[Hoda Kotb]

Okay. Yeah.

[Dan Harris]

How are you with it?

[Hoda Kotb]

Well, here's what's. So January 10th was my last day here, and we are, however many months we are in now. And I kind of had a similar track to you. Like, I was feeling kind of meh in my 50s, and someone had mentioned trying a Breathworks class, and I was like, I don't Know so well. You just do it on zoom. It's no big deal. I was like, okay. Like, I was more like an athlete. I like to do sports. And I ate well. I thought, thought, that's good enough. And I laid down and did it with her on zoom and exploded in tears. And I got up and I was like, oh, my God. What? What was that? Like, what was that? But it started like when you were talking about how one leads to the next. That's what happened, actually.

[Dan Harris]

It started with dissatisfaction.

[Hoda Kotb]

Yes, yes, yes.

[Dan Harris]

And I think that's.

[Hoda Kotb]

That's important.

[Dan Harris]

That's a universal. Right.

[Hoda Kotb]

Yeah.

[Dan Harris]

We know somehow something's not right.

[Hoda Kotb]

Right.

[Dan Harris]

The Buddha is best known, I think unfairly, for having said life is suffering. But what he actually said was, life is dukkha. D U K K H A I believe it's spelled and that translated, that's a word from the ancient language of Pali, but it means actually technically, the axle of like a cartoon fitting poorly in the hole of the wheel.

[Hoda Kotb]

Oh.

[Dan Harris]

So it just means that, like, life is unsatisfying in some way. If you're paying attention, like, what is this? Like, we're all gonna die. Like, I keep getting old. Like, I can't control the outcome. Like, I. This is my body, but, like, why can't I stop my knee from hurting? And yeah, so if you're paying attention, often the world thrusts this realization upon you, but if you're paying attention, there's a kind of offness. And so that can create a yearning. You might call it a spiritual yearning or some psychological yearning. And I hear in your story when you say there was a meh ness in your 50s, like, that was dukkha.

[Hoda Kotb]

Mm, yeah. Yeah, there was. I think things were good enough. It was like that all of the things, relationship work, all the things felt fine, but not right.

[Dan Harris]

And what's amazing is you were on the top of the world. Yeah, you were. You are the co host of the number one or to number one morning television show in the country. And all of the stuff that comes with that, the notoriety, the remuneration, all of that. You have these beautiful, healthy children, you know, by any quote, unquote, objective standard, you had it all. And this is what I think is so universal. I mean, the Buddha himself was a wealthy prince who had it all, but he knew something was off.

[Hoda Kotb]

Something was off.

[Dan Harris]

And then he went off on a search.

[Hoda Kotb]

And it's funny, and I don't know about. You were saying it took seven or eight years to really say, and that that was I understand. With the financial thing, it's like, I'm not sure if I can do it. I want to have some security. I had a weird epiphany on my. We did a 60th party out here on my birthday in August. And there was something about that day.

I stood up on the stage, all these people came, and, you know, Jenna's dad gave me a painting, and I was crying, and it was like, all this. And on that day, I was like, today's the day.

Like, I knew. I was like, this is it. This is the top of the wave. I know it. I'm not like, could I get high? Like, I didn't have that. I was like, yep. I went home, slept like a baby. I knew it. On that day, August 9th, I knew it. I didn't. I didn't articulate it until a little bit later, but I knew it. And I knew it with, like, warm hand on your heart, knowing it, like, it was real. And I didn't have anything started. Like, in terms of. I knew I liked this space so much, and I knew it was transforming me, but I didn't really have, like, a plan for it. So for me to have worked, you know, like you did, it's like, I'm used to a schedule. I'm used to a life. I'm used to travel and meeting people and having instant interactions when I walk in in the morning and not having to find them or seek them out. It's like, of course I'm gonna have a soul to soul convo with Savannah in the makeup room. That's what we do every morning. And then you don't have that. So all these bits and pieces that I had been missing, and when you build something, it's a whole different animal. But here I am now, like, months out, and we're gonna launch something coming up in May, and all of a sudden, it's like, turning me on. All of these modalities and things and people I'm meeting, and I'm finding all these great practitioners who help me. And I was like, you wanna try this? You wanna be part of this? I'm like, okay, what is it? Yeah. All right. So it's fun to watch it come together, but it's totally scary too, because, you know, like, with any business or with anything, you're like, is it going to work? Is it not going to work? You know? Do you have regrets? Do you ever think about. No, not for a second.

[Dan Harris]

Not for a second. I remember one night after I retired, maybe the night of or the night after I woke up in the middle of the night to go to the bathroom because I'm of a certain age. And I was like, what the did you do? But then I went crazy, like, I'm fine, you're fine. And I did have some feelings of like, am I disappearing in some way? And so I, I got interested in trying to do some more TV maybe. But then I was like, no, why.

[Hoda Kotb]

Am I doing that?

[Dan Harris]

We're in a different era. You and I grew up in an era where yes, TV was the thing, but that it's not the thing.

[Hoda Kotb]

Right, right.

[Dan Harris]

And I think when I left, I started to realize this place that I put so much of my self worth and focus. It's. It's a smaller thing than it was when I arrived. And there's a much bigger world out there. And so let's go investigate that.

[Hoda Kotb]

I love that. What advice do you have for me?

[Dan Harris]

I mean, you're, you're doing. From what I can tell, I have a million questions about like, what is the business? And. But for me, it seems like you're doing the right thing. I mean, the, the idea of following your curiosity, that resonates with me because that is exactly what I've done. You know, people want to listen to what you have to say, so where do you want to take them? I think for me, moving out of the broadcast mentality into like building an audience that actually really cares about what I want to talk about and serving them has been transformative.

[Hoda Kotb]

Wow.

[Dan Harris]

I think the thing is build an audience that is really loyal to you.

[Hoda Kotb]

That's really loyal. Yeah.

More with Dan Harris after the break.

How did all of this change you as a husband, as a father, how are you different?

[Dan Harris]

Well, the fatherhood happened right after the book came out and, and honestly, I mean, I continue to change and grow and make dumb, dumb, like incredibly dumb mistakes. And so I'm, I'm not a perfected being or anything like that. My whole shtick. And I would, I recommend this is, Look, I'm just going to do my life in public and I'll tell you everything with the goal of being useful to you. Like, I'm going to try a bunch of things and there's a term. I did not invent this and I don't know who did. Cathartic normalization just. There's a. You are helping other people by being fully open, by using your platform to investigate things that are useful for you and by. The transitive property can be useful for other people. And the existential crisis When I'm in that mode goes away. It's like, all right, I know my job. My job is to be useful and not in a like hair shirt, catastrophic, altruistic way. You know, I have this little tattoo. It's right next to my watch. I can see it. And it's a Buddhist expression the Buddhists talk a lot about, but doing things for the benefit of all beings. And a. All beings. I'm part of that. So you can pursue. I think self interest and altruism exist in a kind of mutually reinforcing double helix. Hoda can try to build a successful business that's cool and that business can be useful to other people. And all that can coexist nicely.

[Hoda Kotb]

Wow, I can't believe all you've done since you left abc. I mean I knew a little bit. I knew the book and I knew that you were a changed being. I heard that from some sources.

But wow, this is really, really cool.

[Dan Harris]

Well, I got a. Another big thing for me. This is actually the next book that I'm writing, although I'm really like really far behind. The book was due in 2020, so it's a. I'm 11 years out for my first book and I think the next book probably comes out in like a year and a half maybe. Okay, okay, okay.

[Hoda Kotb]

Let's see.

[Dan Harris]

I don't know.

[Hoda Kotb]

Okay.

[Dan Harris]

But the, the inciting event, the kickoff event of this next book. So if the first book was the panic attack, the. I got a. Do you know what a 360 review is?

[Hoda Kotb]

Yeah.

[Dan Harris]

Okay. So just for anybody at home doesn't know what it is. It's an anonymous survey often done in a corporate setting of your boss's peers and direct reports to kind of get a panoramic sense of your strengths and weaknesses. But I added in my wife, my brother and some friends. So 16 total people from ABC News, my startup, which the meditation app that I used to be involved with, and then people from my personal life. And this was in 2018. So four years after the panic attack back, I got this 360 review and it was devastating and it completely like I thought I was much further along than I was. And I.

[Hoda Kotb]

What did the peer review and the. What did it.

[Dan Harris]

It turned up. It talked about how I was sort of aloof and emotionally unavailable and often dismissive and rushed and over committed.

[Hoda Kotb]

Oh wow.

[Dan Harris]

And that I could be sharp with my words. All the things that I learned from my role models in the news industry growing up from the anchor monsters I worked for. And I was Bringing that into my work life and my home life. And so I went on a mission to kind of fix all of that or to address all of that. And three years later I got another. 360 was completely different. But I've still had trouble telling the story in the right way. I've struggled with it. And so I'm now seven years out from the 360, still working on, you know, like, there's no arrival at some destination.

[Hoda Kotb]

Yeah, that's cool.

[Dan Harris]

It's always. It's always a working process.

[Hoda Kotb]

What's this book called?

[Dan Harris]

Well, I have a title that I like, but nobody else likes it. I like the title, Me A Love Story, which I think is funny.

[Hoda Kotb]

I think that's hilarious.

[Dan Harris]

Yes.

But people think then the book is about, like, narcissism. But actually it's. It's the opposite of narcissism. It's true self love is the opposite of narcissism because you're okay, you're not taking yourself as seriously. You're lighter with your own neuroses and demons. And then that changes how you are with other people. And so this is a book that 360 is what led me to really getting interested in love as a skill. So. But just back to you for a second. I know this is your interview, but how are you doing with all of this change?

[Hoda Kotb]

Better. I mean, the first, in the beginning there was like the honeymoon, which was really fun. It was like I was up, I was taking my kids to school. I had meetings after. It was all a flow and a rhythm. And then I think, think what I was used to over all these years was a place to go structure things that I realized I did enjoy. So I ended up trying to change that too. So I found a little office space in my little towns. When I walk my kids to school now, I can walk to this place, grab a coffee, have a destination to go to. And I think the interaction piece, like, I love building it. I loved hiring. I love all the things we're trying to. I love all of the bits and pieces that are coming together. Like, I think it's been super fun.

[Dan Harris]

So you had a spike in your happiness after retirement and then, well, quote, unquote, retirement and then a dip. And now that you've got some momentum on this new thing.

[Hoda Kotb]

Yeah, it feels good. I feel like I'm working like a little bit more than I was before just because. Trying to reach deadlines and stuff. But I'm learning to like, book a coffee with somebody, book a lunch, things I Didn't have to do because it was all baked in. Interaction matters to me and I realized that I really minus meetings. I really wasn't getting it. So that's the piece that's kind of big and missing for me that I've been trying to fill.

[Dan Harris]

I think there's something huge in what you just said. And this for me is a big focus in my next book, which is that we are in an era of optimization. Everybody's like trying to count their steps and track their sleep on their watch and achieve ketosis and whatever it is, and that's all can be fine. But actually the most important variable if you want to live forever and be happy and healthy and successful is none of those things. It's the quality of your relationships. That's it. Why? Because stress is what kills us. And the best way to regulate your stress is to have positive relationships. So what you're yearning for there is tune into that. Because if you can be.

[Hoda Kotb]

That's the thing.

[Dan Harris]

Yeah. It's called social fitness and we worry about our mental and physical fitness, but social fitness is huge and it fits into all of this is of a piece so. So keep going with that. Book those coffees.

[Hoda Kotb]

I'm booking them. I'm booking them. Okay, so this podcast is called Making Space. So if you have an entire day, Dan, that's all for you. There's not one thing on your calendar, nothing to do. Wake up when your body says wake up, do what the first thing you want to do. Fill your day the way you want. Crash out when you feel like it. How does that day for you unfold?

[Dan Harris]

I mean, that's basically my life now. Honestly, most of my life now is me doing what I want to do do. There are times when I have some on my calendar that I don't want to do. But most of my days flow in a way that I.

[Hoda Kotb]

You love set.

[Dan Harris]

It's up to me. Sometimes I say yes to stuff I shouldn't say yes to. But generally speaking, I'm doing what I want. So like on a Saturday or Sunday when there's no work thing scheduled, I sleep until 7 or something like that. And I usually work first thing in the morning, like just a little. Because for me my work is. Is what I love. So I usually work for an hour and a half in the morning, like just focusing on my usually this never ending book project. I'm clearest first thing in the morning. And then I will sit in meditation for a while on a good day, like 45 minutes, which by the way, you know, five minutes or one minute is good for beginners, but for me, I'm really into the practice, so. And then I'll maybe work a little bit again and then I'll work out for a while. I really like to exercise, and then I'll have lunch and then the afternoon maybe I'll do more work or do something with my family. And then I really like to have something social at night.

[Hoda Kotb]

Yeah, that's a great day. I love that. What you said was most profound was, I have those days. Yeah, that's it. That's what everybody wants. They want like that day.

[Dan Harris]

And I want to be clear, I'm really aware that this is a privileged position. And again, so how am I going to use this to be of benefit?

[Hoda Kotb]

I interviewed this guy, Sahil Bloom is his name, and he wrote a book about kind of this stuff. He told a story and he said, he goes, there's a big investment banker and he goes to some small Mexican fishing village and he walks up and he sees these guys fishing. And he sees a guy who's already got two big fish on his boat. And he says to the guy, hey, how was it? He goes, great. He goes, what are you gonna do now? He goes, oh, I'm done. I caught my fish. Done. He goes, well, now what? He goes, oh, well, I'm gonna go home and have lunch with my wife and probably take a nap and, and we're gonna cook these fish up and we're gonna have a little barbecue and then I'm gonna go out with my friends and we're gonna go dancing. He goes, wow. He goes, okay, cool. I goes, but you know what? You could really crush it here if you wanted. He goes, what do you mean? He goes, well, if you fished for like four more hours, you'd have more fish. You could sell some and have some and then you could make some money. I was, uh, huh. And then what? He goes and goes, oh, and then.

God, think about it.

If you make enough money, you could probably buy that boat and you'd have both boats, you'd be able to make enough money and have enough fish, and you'd really be, you know, on top of the world. He goes, you could actually own this port. I'm just watching you.

I'm just giving you advice.

I'm an investment banker. And the guy says, well, and then what? And he goes, look, you could chill out, you could go to some village. And he goes, you mean a fishing village? He goes and fish when I wanted, eat lunch with my wife. Go out with my friends. He goes, buddy, I already got that.

[Dan Harris]

Yeah.

[Hoda Kotb]

And that's what we're all striving for. The thing we probably had when we were younger. I remember I interviewed Magic Johnson and I said, when were you your happiest? And he goes, I know when I was my happiest. I said, when? He goes, I'm in a college dorm with Cookie because he was dating her even then. And he goes, and we scrounged up nickels and dimes and quarters and we got two slices, two Cokes, and we lit a candle, like he was describing the most basic of things. And I thought, man, like. Like we're all, like, searching for the thing we had, you know? But anyway, all those things. Remind me when you said, I have that now. A lot of people probably have some of that and don't realize it.

[Dan Harris]

That's true.

[Hoda Kotb]

You know, it's there.

[Dan Harris]

And I want to acknowledge there are many people who are in economic circumstances that are really uncomfortable. I would say that one question that might be helpful to meditate on is what's enough?

[Hoda Kotb]

That's a great question.

[Dan Harris]

You have to figure it out for yourself.

[Hoda Kotb]

All right. What's enough? Well, and with that, thank you so much, Dan.

[Dan Harris]

I appreciate it.

My pleasure.

[Hoda Kotb]

I'm so good. This guy, so good.

Hey, guys, thank you so much for listening and for coming on this journey with me. If you like what you heard, and I hope that you do, please give Making Space a five star rating and review on Apple Podcasts.

And make sure you tell your friends.

Follow us on Apple Podcasts, Spotify or wherever you're listening right now. Making Space with Hoda Kotb is produced by Alison Berger along with Kate Saunders. Our associate audio engineer is Juliana Masterilli. Our audio engineers are Katie Lau and Mark Yoshi Zumi. Original music by John Estes. Bryson Barnes is our head of audio production. Missy Dunlop Parsons is our executive producer. Libby Least is the executive vice president of Today and Lifestyle.

[Chris Gethard]

Hi, I'm Chris Getherd and I'm very excited to tell you about Beautiful Anonymous, a podcast where I talk to random people on the phone. I tweet out a phone number. Thousands of people try to call. I talk to one of them. They stay anonymous. I can't handle hang up. That's all the rules. I never know what's going to happen. We get serious ones. I've talked with meth dealers on their way to prison. I've talked to people who survived mass shootings. Crazy funny ones. I talked to a guy with a goose laugh. Somebody who dresses up as a pirate on the weekends. I never know what's going to happen. It's a great show. Subscribe today. Beautiful. Anonymous.