Podcast Summary: "Why You Say Yes When You Shouldn’t — And How To Say No When It Matters Most" | Dr. Sunita Sa
Podcast Information:
- Title: 10% Happier with Dan Harris
- Host/Author: Dan Harris
- Description: Self-help for smart people. World-class insights and practices from experts in modern science and ancient wisdom. Hosted by veteran journalist and best-selling author, Dan Harris.
- Episode: Why You Say Yes When You Shouldn’t — And How To Say No When It Matters Most | Dr. Sunita Sa
- Release Date: August 4, 2025
Introduction
In this episode, Dan Harris engages in a deep conversation with Dr. Sunita Sa, a Cornell professor specializing in organizational psychology. Dr. Sa explores the often misunderstood concept of defiance, challenging the traditional view that equates defiance with negativity. Instead, she presents defiance as a positive, value-driven action essential for personal well-being and societal progress.
Personal Journey and Redefining Defiance
[07:00] Dr. Sunita Sa shares her personal story, highlighting how her upbringing instilled a strong sense of compliance, equating it with being "good." This childhood association made understanding and practicing defiance challenging.
Dr. Sunita Sa [07:25]: "I really started equating being compliant with being good and defiance with being bad."
She recounts an incident with her son that made her question the moral equation between compliance and defiance, leading her to redefine defiance not as rebellion but as acting in alignment with one’s values.
Defining Defiance
[11:37] Dr. Sa outlines her definition of defiance, contrasting it with traditional interpretations.
Dr. Sunita Sa [11:52]: "To defy is simply to act in accordance with your values, especially when there is pressure to do otherwise."
She emphasizes that defiance is proactive and beneficial, fostering authenticity and reducing the psychological costs of blind compliance.
The Five Stages of Defiance
Dr. Sa introduces a five-stage framework to understand and practice defiance:
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Tension ([15:38]):
- Recognizing the physical and emotional discomfort signaling the need to act against compliance.
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Acknowledgment ([15:38]):
- Examining the source of tension and understanding its connection to personal values.
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Externalizing ([15:38]):
- Vocalizing discomfort to others, which shifts the environment and solidifies the decision to defy.
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Non-Compliance Communication ([15:38]):
- Clearly communicating the inability to comply, often through assertive statements.
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Act of Defiance ([15:38]):
- Taking decisive action that aligns with personal values, thereby dissolving the initial tension.
Dr. Sunita Sa [18:00]: "Once you reach the final stage of defiance, all that tension just dissipates."
The Importance of Values
[21:35] Understanding and articulating personal values are crucial for effective defiance.
Dr. Sunita Sa [22:14]: "If you can actually write down your values, first of all, you're more likely to act in alignment with them."
She discusses how clear values not only guide decisions but also reduce stress by minimizing cognitive dissonance between one’s actions and beliefs.
The Defiance Compass
[35:43] Dr. Sa introduces the Defiance Compass, a tool comprising three interconnected questions:
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Who am I?
- Identifying personal values.
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What type of situation is this?
- Assessing the context to determine if defiance is safe and effective.
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What does a person like me do in a situation like this?
- Connecting actions to values, fostering authentic responses.
This cyclical model helps individuals navigate decisions to comply or defy based on their core values and the specific circumstances.
Conscious Compliance vs. Defiance
[38:59] Dr. Sa differentiates between various forms of compliance and defiance:
- Compliance: Sliding into actions imposed by external pressures without personal endorsement.
- Consent and Defiance: Both require capacity, knowledge, understanding, freedom to choose, and authorization aligned with personal values.
She stresses that conscious compliance involves deliberate decision-making, recognizing when to comply or defer defiance appropriately.
Psychological Safety
[63:03] The role of psychological safety in encouraging defiance is explored. Dr. Sa highlights that environments where individuals feel safe to express dissent foster creativity, innovation, and ethical behavior.
Dr. Sunita Sa [64:58]: "When someone speaks up, it changes the environment and encourages others to do the same."
Leaders play a pivotal role in cultivating psychological safety by modeling defiance and rewarding open communication.
Insinuation Anxiety
[73:32] Dr. Sa introduces "Insinuation Anxiety," a distinct form of anxiety where individuals fear that their refusal to comply will be interpreted negatively, leading to resentment and silence.
Dr. Sunita Sa [73:32]: "It's the fear of implying something negative about someone, especially when they're standing right in front of you."
Understanding and naming this anxiety is essential for overcoming barriers to defiance, enabling individuals to maintain integrity without causing undue offense.
Defiance Hierarchy
[61:19] The concept of Defiance Hierarchy is discussed, where individuals with unearned advantages can defy with fewer repercussions compared to those disadvantaged by societal structures.
Dr. Sunita Sa [63:03]: "Some people are expected to be more compliant and face higher costs when defying."
She advocates for those in positions of power to model defiance, thereby setting cultural norms that support psychological safety for all.
Making Defiance a Practice
[50:40] Dr. Sa outlines four steps to make defiance a habitual practice:
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Anticipate:
- Identify potential situations requiring defiance.
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Visualize:
- Mentally rehearse responses and outcomes.
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Practice:
- Script and verbalize responses to build neural pathways.
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Repeat:
- Consistently apply the practice to reinforce the behavior.
Dr. Sunita Sa [52:00]: "Under duress, we don't rise to the level of our expectations, we fall to the level of our training."
This disciplined approach transforms defiance into a skill accessible to everyone.
Personal Story Illustrating Defiance
Dr. Sa shares a poignant anecdote from her childhood where her compliant mother exhibited defiance in the face of racial harassment. This moment reshaped Dr. Sa’s understanding of defiance as a skill rather than an inherent trait.
Dr. Sunita Sa [55:37]: "We are built on all of these smaller moments. Anyone can be defined. It's not a character trait."
This story underscores the transformative power of defiance in changing both personal lives and societal norms.
Conclusion and Final Insights
In closing, Dr. Sa emphasizes the necessity of teaching defiance skills alongside compliance to foster a more authentic and ethical society. She encourages individuals to align actions with values, thereby reducing stress and enhancing personal fulfillment.
Dr. Sunita Sa [76:27]: "If this particular force can be present, even when all the five elements of consent are present and it still trips us up, what we need to do is be aware of it."
Final Takeaways:
- Defiance as a Skill: Actively practicing defiance aligns actions with personal values, fostering authenticity and reducing psychological stress.
- Value Clarification: Articulating and understanding personal values are foundational for making conscious defiance decisions.
- Psychological Safety: Cultivating environments where defiance is safe encourages ethical behavior and innovation.
- Defiance Hierarchy Awareness: Recognizing societal structures that favor some over others in defiance can guide responsible and equitable actions.
Notable Quotes:
- Dr. Sunita Sa [11:52]: "To defy is simply to act in accordance with your values, especially when there is pressure to do otherwise."
- Dr. Sunita Sa [15:38]: "If you just swallow your words or just keep it to yourself, it actually grows and can lead to resentment and regret."
- Dr. Sunita Sa [22:14]: "If you can actually write down your values, first of all, you're more likely to act in alignment with them."
- Dr. Sunita Sa [35:43]: "What does a person like me do in a situation like this?"
- Dr. Sunita Sa [73:32]: "It's the fear of implying something negative about someone, especially when they're standing right in front of you."
For more insights and to explore Dr. Sunita Sa's work further, visit her website sunitasar.com and check out her book, Defy: The Power of No in a World that Demands Yes.