You Can’t Hate Yourself Into Becoming a Better Person | Vinny Ferraro

Summary

Podcast Summary: 10% Happier with Dan Harris

Episode Title: You Can’t Hate Yourself Into Becoming a Better Person | Vinny Ferraro
Date: August 31, 2025
Host: Dan Harris
Guest: Vinny Ferraro
Guest Interviewer: DJ Kashmir

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Overview

This episode features a moving conversation between Buddhist teacher Vinny Ferraro and the show’s executive producer DJ Kashmir. Vinny shares his deeply personal story—one marked by chaotic youth, cycles of self-destruction, and eventual healing through 12-step recovery and Buddhist insight meditation. The core of the discussion orbits the provocative idea that self-improvement cannot be forced through self-hatred. Instead, Vinny advocates for bringing tenderness, curiosity, and courage to all parts of ourselves, no matter how “unlovable” we feel. He outlines his journey from inner fragmentation toward greater wholeness and offers practical reflections for anyone on the path of self-acceptance.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Vinny’s Early Life and Descent (04:46–07:37)

• Vinny recounts his childhood in a “complicated house” filled with fear and volatility. He internalized a sense of walking on eggshells, calling himself the “quiet kid.”
• As a teen, he spiraled into “dangerous behaviors”: “By the time I was maybe 10 years old, I was on probation... No matter what our houses looked like, the behavior that they were seeing was worrisome.” (05:11)
• He describes a cycle: shame from bad behavior driving further self-medication and distancing from himself: “It was like a loop that I was caught in... escalating into felonies.”

Hitting Bottom & New Beginnings (07:38–11:13)

• The turning point came at age twenty, after hitting multiple “bottoms.” Severely underweight and out of options, his father found him and brought him to a 12-step meeting.
• “I went home and flushed my little package down the toilet... I went to a meeting every day for at least a couple years, you know, and I made coffee and I swept, and I was a door greeter...” (08:37)
• The recovery literature’s call for “prayer and meditation” confused but intrigued him, and he decided to explore it personally.

Encounter with Meditation & Buddhist Dharma (11:14–13:37)

• Vinny left his tumultuous neighborhood for Santa Cruz, California: “I had a used state trooper car, and I had a Harley... I drove out to California with a really good friend.”
• There, he met people practicing meditation—particularly the Insight Meditation (Buddhist) tradition—which would become central to his healing.
• Gradually, meditation became his new anchor: “By ‘95, I felt like, okay, this is my—this is what I’m into. This is really where I want to go with my life.” (11:13)
• He soon became passionate about bringing these tools to people suffering from homelessness, addiction, and incarceration: “That’s the kind of suffering we knew about.” (11:13)

The Inadequacy of Self-Hatred and the Path to Wholeness (14:03–19:47)

• Reflecting on early recovery, Vinny says spirituality and meditation were doorways to new possibility, but progress was slow: “Maybe I’m probably a slow learner and a quick forgetter because it took me at least 10 years to realize that I can’t hate myself into becoming a better person. It just is not gonna work. If it was gonna work, it would have already.” (18:36)
• He cites Buddhist teachings on “Mara” (the metaphorical demon of self-torment and delusion) and shares a clever acronym: “Mind Appearing Real Again.” (19:47)
• Key realization: relief does not come from banishing difficult feelings, but from how we relate to them. “When I responded to that energy with some heart quality, some care... that was a real defining point for me.”

Taking Responsibility Without Self-Blame (25:36–26:48)

• Vinny and DJ discuss how mindfulness practice reveals one’s own contributions to suffering—not in a self-punitive way, but as the “ultimate responsibility” for one’s responses.
• “What’s arising is what’s arising. Not much influence over that. But how can this be in the service of awakening? And so when we start asking ourselves that question... that’s when our practice becomes all terrain.” (25:42)
• This stance, he says, is “unconditional”—it doesn’t depend on circumstances being smooth or pleasant.

Tenderness, Parenting, and Breaking Old Cycles (27:52–29:52)

• Drawing on the Dao: “Liberated is the soul, which sees all human behavior as either an act of love or a call for love.” (27:52)
• Tenderness and apology are essential with his own son; Vinny shares moving anecdotes about apologizing to his child. “This is a chance to break a cycle... Most of us never got that from our parents.” (28:02)
• The focus is not on instant transformation but on alignment—choosing “the more tender route” even when old habits arise.

Ongoing Practice and Self-Compassion as Refuge (32:01–36:16)

• DJ asks if full healing or wholeness is truly attainable. Vinny offers nuanced hopefulness: “I don’t know that there’s an end point, you know, but I can tell you that I suffer much less around these things... let me put it this way. I’m not as stubborn when it comes to holding on to my suffering.” (32:01)
• He talks about being less “loyal” to suffering and more able to let go. Compassion is no longer something he strains for, but becomes more instinctive: “These things can arise... but they don’t stick around for very long, and they usually inspire some heart quality.” (33:42)
• He links this new way of being to unconditional love for his son, which transforms how he treats his own pain: “How would I be with him if he was suffering like this?... I get to react to these internal energies in that same beautiful and welcoming way.” (34:29)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “I can’t hate myself into becoming a better person. It just is not gonna work. If it was gonna work, it would have already.”
  —Vinny Ferraro [18:36]
• "Liberated is the soul, which sees all human behavior as either an act of love or a call for love."
  —Vinny Ferraro [27:52]
• “If we could just hold ourselves, like we would anyone we love, what happens? Something calms down because we don’t have to exile that part of ourselves.”
  —Vinny Ferraro [35:01]
• “What’s arising is what’s arising. Not much influence over that. But how can this be in the service of awakening?”
  —Vinny Ferraro [25:42]

Practical Takeaways & Reflections

• Meditation is not a quick fix. For Vinny, real change took years and involved painstaking attention to the heart—responding to pain with care, not avoidance or aggression.
• Mindfulness means questioning—not just the content of painful thoughts, but our entire way of relating to them.
• Parenting moments illustrate how cycles of harshness can be replaced, over time, with cycles of gentleness.
• The teaching “it all belongs” is living, ongoing practice—not a static achievement, but a commitment to honesty, compassion, and non-exile within oneself.

The Ongoing Work: Meditations and Live Events (37:18–38:46)

• Vinny will be offering guided meditations throughout September, focusing on “resetting our relationship to stress” and “resetting our relationship to ourselves.”
• He describes this as “a really big honor” and is excited to bring his own hard-won experience to help listeners make friends with difficult inner energies.

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Vinny’s chaotic childhood and adolescence: 04:46–07:37
• Twelve-step recovery turning point: 07:38–11:13
• Discovery of meditation & early practice: 11:14–13:37
• The journey from self-hatred to wholeness: 14:03–19:47
• Responsibility and engaging with suffering: 25:36–26:48
• Parenting, tenderness, and breaking cycles: 27:52–29:52
• The ongoing dance of acceptance vs. exile: 32:01–36:16
• Preview of upcoming meditations/events: 37:18–38:46

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Tone and Conversational Style

Vinny’s storytelling is raw, honest, and peppered with humor and humility (“Maybe I’m a slow learner and a quick forgetter…”). There’s gritty wisdom in how he describes his journey—not as a string of easy wins, but as a sequence of stumbles, realizations, and cautious hope. Both interviewer and interviewee are open about their own continued struggles, making the discussion relatable and deeply compassionate.

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This episode is a resonant reminder: no matter how rough the past, acceptance and gentle attention can create a new way forward.

Transcript

[Dan Harris]

Foreign.

This is the 10% Happier podcast. I'm Dan Harris. Hey. Hey, how we doing? Okay, here's the deal. I'm just gonna give it to you straight. We all have demons. The question is, are you going to find a way to work with your difficult parts, the difficult aspects of your inner repertoire, or are you going to let your demons own you? Your call. That's up to you. Today you're going to hear from a guy who has learned this lesson the hard way and in the process has become a beloved Buddhist teacher. Vinny Ferraro leads the Big Heart City Sangha, which is part of the Insight meditation tradition. He's also our teacher of the month over on DanHarris.com, which means he'll be producing guided meditations throughout September to go with all of our Wednesday episodes. The idea is that you can listen to the episode, learn a ton, and then Vinnie will help you, as I like to say, pound the wisdom into your neurons with a guided meditation. These meditations are only for paid subscribers over@dan harris.com paid subscribers also now get weekly live meditation and Q and A sessions. I had been doing these intermittently, but now we're going to systematize and do them every week, every Tuesday at 4 Eastern. So you can put that in your calendar. The next one is Tuesday, September 2nd. It will feature both me and Vinnie. Okay, so that brings me today's episode. It's a brief interview between Vinnie and my executive producer, DJ Kashmir. And in this conversation, you'll hear Vinnie talk about his extraordinary life story, how he came to meditation after a truly chaotic adolescence, and much more. Please enjoy. I just got back from my annual 10 day silent meditation retreat, which I do with Joseph Goldstein up at the Insight Meditation Society, which is in central Massachusetts. This year, the cottages where I stay in were booked up for the first part of my retreat date. So I actually got an Airbnb in town nearby, and it was a super successful, easy experience. I found a place that was perfect. My friend and I were staying there together. During the retreat, the host and I messaged back and forth. She was incredibly kind. The house was called the Purple Rooster, was super idiosyncratic and perfect for a retreat. I think the neighbors, when they saw us doing hours and hours of walking meditation, might have thought we were a little weird. But anyway, just another example of why I love Airbnb. It's super easy to use their app to find the right place for you, and then you can chat directly with the host. And this was definitely the case. At the Purple Rooster. And if you think about it, there are really two opportunities here. It's great to stay in an Airbnb when you're traveling and your home could go on Airbnb. You've put a lot of time and attention into making your home comfortable. So why not host your home on Airbnb while you're traveling? Your home might be worth more than you think. Find out how [e-mail] host imagine you're a business owner who has to rely on a dozen different software programs to run your company, none of which are connected. And each one is more expensive and more complicated than the last. This can be pretty stressful. And I speak as a business owner who pays for lots of different software programs. So now imagine Odoo. Odoo has all the programs you will ever need, and they're all connected on one simple, easy to use platform, giving you peace of mind that your business is always being taken care of from every angle. Odoo has user friendly open source applications for everything. We're talking CRM, accounting, inventory, manufacturing, marketing, hr, and everything in between. Basically, if your business needs it, Odoo's got it. Odoo sounds pretty amazing, right? So stop wasting your time and your money on those expensive and disconnected platforms. Let Odoo harmonize your business with simple, efficient software that can handle everything for a fraction of the price. Doesn't get much better than that. What are you waiting for? Discover how Odoo can take your business to the next level. And by visiting odoo.com that's o d o o.com odoo modern management made simple.

[DJ Kashmir]

Vinnie Ferraro, welcome back to the show.

[Vinnie Ferraro]

Thank you so much. Good to see you. Dj.

[DJ Kashmir]

It's so good to see you. I've been looking forward to this for a minute.

[Dan Harris]

Now.

[DJ Kashmir]

Let's dive right in. Been asking everyone the same question, so I'll put it to you when we think about the story of how you became a meditation teacher. What is that story? Where should we start?

[Dan Harris]

Hmm.

[Vinnie Ferraro]

Yeah, I guess a little boy trying to accommodate reality. You know, there's a lot to accommodate in my young life. Complicated house, lots of yelling and lots of fear in my body, you know, and so I was kind of like the quiet kid because I was slightly walking on eggshells, I would say.

[Dan Harris]

Yeah.

[Vinnie Ferraro]

And, you know, as you get older, you know, the stakes increase, the dangerous behaviors start coming out. And by the time I was maybe 10 years old, I was on probation. You know, I was a juvenile delinquent. And they had all these words for kids like us. You know, they. They would group us together. No matter what our houses looked like, the behavior that they were seeing was worrisome.

[Dan Harris]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Vinnie Ferraro]

As a teenager, you know, like I said, the stakes continue to increase. So now it was hard for me to bear my own presence. You know, I had so many feelings going on inside me. I would say I was a sensitive kid, but. But I wasn't raised in a sensitive world or in a sensitive home, so there wasn't a lot of room for that. So I ended up medicating a lot, mostly through, you know, drinking and drugs, but some of it through dangerous behaviors and finding any escape from my world became my world.

[Dan Harris]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Vinnie Ferraro]

That just complicated things because then I was in this cycle of doing things I wasn't proud of. Feeling bad about that as a sensitive person and then needing to get away from that feeling again. So it was like a loop that I was caught in doing things I wasn't proud of, feeling ashamed, not being able to bear that feeling and doing more things I wasn't proud of. So it just kept, like, escalating into felon felonies, into me calling my mom or dad from the police department, you know, and having another charge and another court date and another three years probation, and it just kind of continued like this. Yeah. Yeah. So I had a lot to get away from internally. Then maybe by the time I was 20 years old, things had shifted for me. I had hit another bottom. You know, I didn't know that I had another bottom in me, but I kept finding new bottoms, and it was just like, wow, man, something has to change here.

[Dan Harris]

Yeah.

[Vinnie Ferraro]

I think I was about £110 at 20 years old.

[Dan Harris]

Yeah.

[Vinnie Ferraro]

Truthfully, I. It was the hardest point in my life, and I felt, okay, I'm willing to try anything. And that's when something shifted. And my pops ended up coming and finding me and bringing me to a 12 step meeting. And that really changed my life. I wasn't sure why I was going down the stairs of this church basement, and it was, you know, moist and dank, and I saw lots of people milling around and hugging. And I was just like, what the hell is this? You know, has it really come to this? You know what I mean? Like, I had so much judgment because I just wasn't used to seeing people show love like that.

[Dan Harris]

Yeah.

[Vinnie Ferraro]

And I saw some people I knew from the street, and I was like, bro, I thought you were locked up. I didn't know where you'd been. And he's like, bro, I've been sober. And I'm like, holy. Okay, all right. What are y' all doing here? You know, and they. They introduced me to that culture. And I said, okay, I'll try, you know, And I went home and I flushed my little package down the toilet, and I. You know, I went to a meeting every day for at least a couple years, you know, and I made coffee and I swept, and I was a door greeter and all these different positions. And I just felt like, okay, I'm gonna really give this an honest shot. Because there wasn't anything else I had to live for, you know what I mean? It didn't feel like there was any other way I could continue doing what I was doing. So it was out of desperation, you know, I'm reading these books, you know, the 12 step books, and they talked about through prayer and meditation. And I was like, through prayer and meditation? What is that word? What does that mean? You know what I mean? And I didn't have any concept of what that word actually meant. All I knew was the TV version from David Carradine and Kung Fu, and you know what I mean? Like, that kind of like exoticism. And it was like, let me find out what this is. And I started buying some books. And this is the early 90s. And soon I needed to just get out of my neighborhood. Just because even though I was sober, I didn't see anything that I wanted to be. You know, everybody I knew were kind of like criminals and outlaws and still in the game. And I just felt like, okay, I gotta get out of here. I gotta just go drive across the country or something crazy like that. And so I jumped in my state trooper car. I had a used state trooper car, and I had a Harley, and I put it on a trailer, and I drove out to California with a really good friend of mine. And we ended up landing in Santa Cruz. And I was like, wow, I'd never seen surfers and Day Glo and dolphins jumping out of the water. And I was just like, what the hell? I felt so far from my neighborhood, I didn't recognize anything. I was like, this looks perfect. And basically landing here in Santa Cruz in 1990, I met some folks that were involved in the Dharma, you know, involved in meditation. And I started meditating.

[Dan Harris]

Yeah.

[Vinnie Ferraro]

92, 93, I started getting more serious about it. And by 95, I felt like, okay, this is my. This is what I'm into. This is really where I want to go with my life. And that was a pivot point in my life that changed everything. Everything that came after that was due to that decision. It was a long decision. Like I said, it was over a couple years that I was kicking tires in different meditation circles. And really what we wanted to do more than anything else was to bring the tools of meditation to people that were suffering in the ways that we understood. The suffering of being homeless or strung out or in jail. Like, that's the kind of suffering we knew about. So that's what really spoke to my heart, was like, okay, how do we translate this to this demographic? Because that's the world I know. That became very exciting, bringing this to people that needed it the most.

[Dan Harris]

Yeah.

[DJ Kashmir]

Would it be right to say that meditation was so transformational for you that you then felt like you had no other choice but to pass that on?

[Dan Harris]

Yeah.

[Vinnie Ferraro]

Yeah, I think that's fair to say. You know, when you find something that actually helps, right. And, you know, the pain of the suffering and then you're feeling some sort of relief, of course you want to share that with the world. To tell you the truth, I'll give you a little confession, man. This is a strange moment, but I don't know. Evangelical is not the right word, but I was so excited about the practice that some of my older friends from the neighborhood were calling me Vinnie Swagger instead of Jimmy Swagger. They were just like, dude, you were the worst of us. And now you're, like, standing at this pulpit. And I was like, yeah, bro, I can't tell you what this transformation has done for me, like, internally, you know? And so, yeah, it was pretty exciting to share it with people that knew not only where I came from, but people that knew about that life, you know, and know the suffering within it.

[DJ Kashmir]

Yeah, it sounds like, if I'm hearing you right, the first thing that really helped you dig out was finding this 12 step meeting. And then meditation came along and helped you access something even beyond what you'd been able to access in the 12 step meeting. Am I hearing that right? And if so, can you say a little more about it?

[Vinnie Ferraro]

Yeah. You know, there was a line in that big book of AA that said, you know, spirituality was the cornerstone of our recovery. And I was just like, okay, I'm interested in this thing. Okay, Spirituality, meditation. But what does that actually mean? You know what I mean? Like, I didn't grow up in the church. I didn't grow up, you know, in that religious way. So I didn't really know what those words meant. But I was around people that were spacious enough to Let me figure it out for myself. Like I said, I was kicking a lot of tires in these different spiritual circles. You know, I was chanting with the Hare Krishnas. I went and sat with the Jesuit priests, and I. You know, I went to all these different kind of Sufi gatherings. And I was just, like, trying to find what resonated with my heart. And I could find some little pieces in each one of these. And then when I came to meditation, and in particular, the Buddha Dharma, it was like, oh, this is firing on all cylinders. This is a complete path for me. There's nothing here that I have to swallow that doesn't resonate with my heart. And I think it was because there's so much structure to it, you know, the Eightfold path, all these different ways of understanding how to live in a way that felt whole and not just trying to be good or trying to be anything in particular beside whole. So finally there was enough room for all these different parts of me. And so that's what meditation represented for me. It's okay. Finally, there's enough space for all of you.

[DJ Kashmir]

You talked about realizing you needed to get out of the neighborhood, you know, driving 3,000 miles and seeing dolphins, seeking all these different paths. And I guess it raises a question for me of, like, in that time, were you running from something? And if so, are you still running?

[Vinnie Ferraro]

I think I was still kind of on the move. You know, I still held this kind of belief that I was fundamentally broken or flawed.

[Dan Harris]

Yeah.

[Vinnie Ferraro]

That followed me.

[Dan Harris]

Yeah.

[Vinnie Ferraro]

Probably into my 30s. That feeling or that doubt, you know, of my own wholeness or goodness. And then you start learning more about the dharma in Mara. These negative aspects are, at least for me, I stopped taking it so personally, like it was some personal failing that I had these fears or this anger, whatever it was. Right. I could understand it through the lens of. Yeah, Mara. A lot easier than trying to figure out, okay, why do I feel this way and why do I want to do these things? Or, you know, taking life very personally was a huge part of my suffering. Why am I like this? As though I didn't come by it honestly, you know, naturally.

[Dan Harris]

Right. Yeah.

[DJ Kashmir]

So if Mara is, you know, from the ancient Buddhist texts, is this sort of demon haunting the thoughts of the Buddha. Right. Even after the Buddha becomes enlightened. And we all have our versions of this. Our fears, our anxieties, our hatreds, our greed. And it sounds like, if I'm hearing you right, it was sort of like when you first started to really look into meditation. It felt like maybe this is a place where I can be whole, where no part of me has to be left out or disavowed. But even after that, it still took a while to really understand one of these core teachings, which is just this idea that these things that are haunting us are not ours. They're not unique to us. We didn't create them. We didn't ask for them. They don't say something about our innate worth like that, that whole. And I guess I'm relating to that in the sense that I, too, when I came to meditation and went on my first retreat, it started in part because I had also been looking at different paths, and it felt like the only one where there wasn't too much to push back against. But it certainly was not an overnight sense of, like, okay, I went on my first retreat, and now I don't have to hate myself anymore. That's still a work in progress.

[Vinnie Ferraro]

Yeah, I don't know. Maybe I'm probably a slow learner and a quick forgetter because it took me at least 10 years to realize that I can't hate myself into becoming a better person. It just is not gonna work. If it was gonna work, it would have already. You know what I mean? So it took me a while of meditating and sitting these kind of long retreats and many hours of just wrestling with these internal energies, you know? And I like YAMARA as an acronym, like, Mind Appearing Real Again, you know? And it's just like, over and over, you start waking up to these energies that are just coursing through my body. That was like, wow, this is really helpful to give it a name and to understand it's not mine and have space for it. And now I can see that. I started to see then that there was two aspects that dictated my experience. One is, like, how did I respond to the presence of these energies? And then what do I align myself with?

[Dan Harris]

Right?

[Vinnie Ferraro]

Do I align myself? Am I attached to that identity or that energy? And then where does that lead? And that kind of leads to, you know, more Mara, more of that energy. But when I responded to that energy with some heart quality, some care, some sort of. Yeah, care is the best word I have for it. But can I care for this feeling that's hard to bear without making it mine, without taking it personally, without disavowing it, as you said. But can I just be here as, like, an empathetic witness to this soft animal of my body that's feeling this way? And so that was very helpful to me, the heart qualities to be able to respond and then say, okay, and what do I align myself here with? And I didn't need to align myself 100% with this love or kindness or even compassion. It's just a little bit more than what's being whispered in the shadows. You know, that was a real defining point for me, is understanding that Mara doesn't have to disappear. There can be all kinds of space for even doubt to stay there. But what are you going to align yourself with? And just little bit more than what Mara's offering.

[DJ Kashmir]

I mean, you said slow learner, but it strikes me that starting to learn that about 10 years in, I don't know, could be worse.

[Vinnie Ferraro]

Always, always, always, always. You know, but when I think about it, you know, it's like, oh, yeah, okay, so by 95, I'd call myself a Buddhist. Okay. And then I. How many years did I really kind of, like, marinate in that feeling and not yet. See, these obstacles are actually doorways. So it took me a while because all I wanted to do was feel better. And a lot of times, you know, you meditate and it's not that you feel better. It's not, you know, some quick fix. It's, you know, it's not instant. Like so many medications are. Right. Like you can take something and all of a sudden you feel different. Meditation was a much slower path for me, and because I had this pat of always running from myself, I think I was looking for.

[Dan Harris]

Yeah.

[Vinnie Ferraro]

A quicker fix, you know, and so it felt like it took a really long time, you know, at least compared to my earlier life. Yeah. But it was way more sustainable, you know, and I wasn't leaving or it didn't feel like I was leaving like a path of destruction behind me either. So it became easier to look in the mirror, became easier to bear my presence, became easier to share what was going on inside me, because it wasn't all my fault.

[Dan Harris]

Yeah, Yeah.

[DJ Kashmir]

I never heard Mara reimagined as an acronym. You said mind appearing real again. And I just to explore that for a moment. I've been watching this happen with my daughter, who's about to turn six. There are moments when I will correct her behavior in some way. And if my tone is somewhere between neutral and loving, and if she's had enough sleep and water and food and I've had enough sleep and water and food, and the thing that I'm correcting doesn't feel like something I've already said 50 times that day, et cetera. There are conditions where that correction just. It's just the Easiest thing in the world, you know, please don't do that. Okay. You know, and then there are other times when not all of those conditions are in place and she just melts, she just wilts. And we've talked about it, and I think what's happening for her in that moment is she's registering the negative input or the critical input or the correction as essentially just a message that she's bad. And of course, I can relate to this. So something I've been working on with both her and myself is just this thing of that you don't have to believe that thought that you're bad.

[Vinnie Ferraro]

Right.

[DJ Kashmir]

All of your feelings are real and valid, but not all of your thoughts are true and helpful. And I've been trying to find ways in my own mind and also in relationship with her to kind of interrupt this cycle of her mind appearing real to her in that moment, you know, because. And I've just noticed that if I don't do that, it just doesn't take that many instances for her to start to build up a whole story about herself. And I feel like I'm about to turn 40 in the not too distant future. And I'm still trying to unlearn those stories, still trying to wake up to the fact that this is another moment where my mind is appearing real to me. But it's not the same thing as a moment where the story's true.

[Vinnie Ferraro]

Yeah, yeah, it's well said, man.

[Dan Harris]

Yeah.

[DJ Kashmir]

The 10 years of practice that it took you to start to get to that point, I wonder if part of what was happening was just you were building that skill of waking up, coming back to the breath, waking up, noting what's happening, waking up, waking up, coming back to the present moment. And as you start to do that, maybe the tally of moments where the mental note is like self criticism, self criticism, self criticism starts to go up.

[Vinnie Ferraro]

Right.

[DJ Kashmir]

You start to notice what you're doing to yourself and creating some distance between that story and your reality.

[Dan Harris]

Yeah.

[Vinnie Ferraro]

I mean, you definitely begin to see your own contributions to your suffering.

[Dan Harris]

Right.

[Vinnie Ferraro]

It's like, oh, part of the path is just taking that ultimate responsibility.

[Dan Harris]

Right.

[Vinnie Ferraro]

That says, okay, it's really my response here, Right. Not what's arising. Right. What's arising is what's arising. Not much influence over that. But how can this be in the service of awakening? And so when we start asking ourselves that question, no matter what the conditions are, that's when our practice becomes all terrain, Right. That's when we could, you know, whether we're walking through A funeral parlor, a prison, a birthing room. It's like, how can this be in the service of awakening? Becomes a very.

[Dan Harris]

Yeah.

[Vinnie Ferraro]

Very sturdy way to engage the world and the self. You know, in all of these different conditions, it feels unconditional to me, that question. Because then it doesn't matter if it's good, if it's bad, if it's just an average day, it's like, okay, and how can this be in the service of awakening? And so that question over and over began to sprout all kinds of beautiful blossoms.

[Dan Harris]

Yeah.

[DJ Kashmir]

So if you're in a moment where you're, like, really beating yourself up, like, I'm gonna have to go apologize. Like, damn it. I can't believe I still have a temper after all these years. Whatever the story is, when you catch it, is that your immediate next move? Oh, story again. How can that be in the service of awakening? Is that, like, literally what you're doing in the middle of your afternoon with your kid?

[Vinnie Ferraro]

Let me see if I can.

[Dan Harris]

Yeah.

[Vinnie Ferraro]

Come to that moment for a minute, and then see how does the heart respond? I don't have to go too far back, I can tell you that.

[Dan Harris]

Bj.

[DJ Kashmir]

I mean, as I was telling that story, I realized I might be projecting slightly but totally fair for you to say you don't have those moments anymore. But it sounds like that's not where we're at.

[Vinnie Ferraro]

Yeah. Yeah, we could say that.

[Dan Harris]

Yeah.

[Vinnie Ferraro]

I think it's from the dao, and it says, liberated is the soul, which sees all human behavior as either an act of love or a call for love. So sometimes when I'm, like, in this, you know, I'm moving through the world and something catches my eye or somebody's. I'm frustrated, or my son Valentino is just on one. It's like, okay, is this a call for love or an act of love? You know what I mean? And it's like, okay, can I meet him in that? What does he really want right now? You know, it's slowing it all down. Sometimes. I've crossed the threshold already, and I have to go sit with him and hold his hand and look in his eyes and tell him that I'm sorry. You know, that's a tender place. Because most of us never got that. Most of us never got that from our parents, right? So it's like, oh, this is a chance to break a cycle. So instead of doubling down and, like, getting more angry and him getting more scared or whatever's happening for him, we take a more tender route that says okay, how can I interrupt this cycle of identification or attachment to my role and say, okay, what's really being called for here? Can I get really tender with this? You know? And I've seen great results in that tenderness. You know, even if it's just him seeing me give him my full attention and calming down, it shows him that we can move through these emotions. We can always choose a more vulnerable way to be with each other instead of escalating and stuff like some kind of power struggle. There's just a tenderness that is very palpable and transformative for both of us.

[Dan Harris]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Vinnie Ferraro]

And sometimes it. You know, it doesn't always just work wonders, but I know what I am aligning myself with, and I could see that he's getting something from this, you know, so it's not always, like I say, immediately transformative of his behavior, but I can see something happening in both of us that's moving in the right direction.

[DJ Kashmir]

I took close in a minute by just touching briefly on these meditations you're going to offer starting tomorrow. But I have one more question to close out this. This piece of the conversation. I'm thinking back to some of what you said about your early days and how much you were navigating and running from and trying to make sense of. And I continue to be interested in this notion that you've pointed to in this conversation and also in other appearances on the show of living in a world where there's no part of you that's beyond redemption, where it really is about wholeness, where everything you are is welcome. And I guess I'm just. I'm curious for myself and for folks who are listening. I imagine most, if not all of us have some version of hurts that we're carrying, especially from our formative years and pieces of ourselves that we're not sure whether they belong or not. And so I guess I'm curious to get a postcard from where you're at. Do you feel that you've arrived at a point where it all belongs and all that turmoil and trauma feels healed? Is that an endpoint? Is it an ongoing thing, just, you know, asking for a friend?

[Vinnie Ferraro]

Yeah, I don't know. I don't know that there's an end point, you know, but I can tell you that I suffer much less around these things. Let me put it this way. I'm not as stubborn when it comes to holding on to my suffering. I used to be very stubborn. I used to be. No, this is bullshit. And, you know, dig my heels in and be like, no, I am not going. And just feel like I was fighting for my salvation when it was really my servitude. Right? Like, I'm literally putting the yoke back on because I'm not going to yield to this. And now I don't have as much of that. And I'm not sure that I figured anything out or got to some end point, as you said. I'm not sure why that is, why I'm not as stubborn around holding on to my suffering. So loyal to my suffering. I don't know if I figured something out or if I've just run out of steam. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. But it's the same result, which is, like, a lot less tightness internally, a lot less corrosive feelings. You know, these things can arise. There's these energies run through me just like everyone, but they don't stick around for very long, and they usually inspire some hard quality. You know, even when it's super hard to bear, compassion is always there for me when I stop trying to figure out whose fault it is and who's to blame. And it's just like, nah, dude, this just hurts, bro. And it's okay. And it's okay that it hurts. And you can be with that hurt like you would anyone you love. You know, Valentino has been a great addition to my life because he shows me that I'm capable of unconditional love and care. You know, this is something he has a great gift that he offers me. Just looking at him and seeing, like, there's nothing in the world I love more than my son. And so how would I be with him if he was suffering like this? And, you know, I get to react to these internal energies in that same beautiful and welcoming way.

[DJ Kashmir]

The other night, I was having trouble falling asleep. My head was spinning out, and it was a few nights of that in a row. And I don't know, at some point, all this meditation and all this working on the show, like, something maybe you. I don't know, but something kicked in, and I just, you know, put my hand on my heart and told myself internally, silently, like, yeah, this is hard. It's okay. I got you. And I. I don't know, I fell asleep. So there's something in it.

[Vinnie Ferraro]

Yeah. Yeah. You know, these folks that have been through trauma, you know, they always talk about, like, well, it happens with the absence of an empathetic witness. And so what does it mean to be that for ourselves? You know, if we could just hold ourselves, like, we Would anyone? We love what happens and something calms down because we don't have to exile that part of ourselves. We don't have to push it out of existence. We don't have to destroy it. You know, we get to tend to it with this caring heart that is so. It's just got so much transformative power, that anger and shame and guilt and hate, they don't have that capacity to transform. I feel so lucky and blessed to know that now internally. You know what I mean? So that there is always a place that I can return to as a refuge that says, however you are right now, you're welcome. You know, and so that's a very spacious way meditation offers us.

[Dan Harris]

Yeah.

[Vinnie Ferraro]

All right.

[DJ Kashmir]

So speaking of meditation, and in the spirit of doing the thing that my colleague Hayden, who's recording this conversation, has been wanting me to do for at least 10 minutes now, just to say, you know, your guided meditations are going to start releasing alongside all of our new Monday and Wednesday episodes starting tomorrow. And you're also going to be leading our live sangha, our live group meditation in two days from now on Tuesday, as well as several more Tuesdays throughout the month of September. And, you know, I'm lucky enough to get a sneak peek at some of what you've been working on. Meditations around resetting our relationship to stress, resetting our relationship to ourselves. I was wondering if we could just close with just a word or two from you about how you're orienting towards being our teacher of the month this month and what people might look forward to as they sit with you and have you in their ears in the coming weeks.

[Vinnie Ferraro]

Yeah. It's a really big honor to be asked. So thank you for being part of the team that invited me to do this.

[Dan Harris]

Yeah.

[Vinnie Ferraro]

It's a really big honor for me, of course.

[Dan Harris]

Yeah.

[Vinnie Ferraro]

To be able to be with people over the course of a month in a steady way.

[Dan Harris]

Yeah.

[Vinnie Ferraro]

It feels like a great gift. So thank you.

[Dan Harris]

Yeah.

[Vinnie Ferraro]

Around the stress piece, it's like, okay, this is an energy that comes to, I think, all beings, you know, like, we all know stress, you know, and it's not all bad. There's good stress, you know, but how do we make friends with this thing instead of just trying to get away from it? What is there beneath that energy? You know, what is it actually pointing at? What's it trying to bring my attention to? You know, a big part of the path is just a curiosity that we have instead of just stamping something. Anxiety, stress, pain. It's like no. What is this thing? You know, and it's a constellation. Right? There's emotions, there's energy, there's sensations in the body. So for me I'm just interested in stress and how to work with it when it arises. So I'm glad that's the first one we're doing because I have lots of experience with that.

[DJ Kashmir]

Fair enough. Fair enough.

[Dan Harris]

Yeah.

[DJ Kashmir]

Awesome. Well, just to say you said thank you and you're very welcome. It was a total no brainer. Audience has been clamoring to hear from you more and I get why. And yeah, I'm proud of you. Personally excited to have you helming my practice for the next month. I'm always, always feel like I'm in good hands when I'm in your hands. And so thanks for doing it and thanks for coming back on.

[Vinnie Ferraro]

No Doubt.

[Dan Harris]

Thank you to Vinnie and dj. Great conversation. I just want to remind you, head on over to danharris.com to become a paid subscriber. You'll get to hear all of Vinny's guided meditations that that he'll be producing to go with our Monday Wednesday episodes here on the pod. And also you'll get weekly live meditation and Q and A sessions. It really is a great way to get into the carpool or HOV lane with your meditation practice. Ton of evidence to show that meditating together is a great way to keep the practice going or to deepen it. The next one's on Tuesday, September 2nd at 4 Eastern. We're doing all of these on Tuesdays now at 4 Eastern and Vinnie and I will be doing this one together. And don't forget, if you want to take your meditation practice offline, I'm doing a couple of IRL events. One's at the New York Insight meditation center on September 21st. The other is at the Omega Institute the weekend of October 24th. I'll put links in the show notes. Finally, thank you so much to everybody who works so hard on the show. Our producers are Tara Anderson, Caroline Keenan and Eleanor Vasily. Our recording and engineering is handled by the great folks over at Pod People. Lauren Smith is our managing producer. Marissa Schneiderman is our senior producer. DJ Cashmere is our executive producer and Nick Thorburn of the band Islands Road Bar. Theme this episode is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Fiscally responsible financial geniuses, monetary magicians. These are things people say about drivers who switch their car insurance to progressive and save hundreds. Visit progressive.com to see if you could save Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates. Potential savings will vary not available in all states or situations.

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