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Your Negative, Ruminating Mind: Here's Your Way Out | Sister Dang Nghiem
01:17:46
When it comes to your demons, your baggage, you have a choice: transform or transmit. Sister Dang Nghiem, MD, (“Sister D”) was born in 1968 in Vietnam during the Tet Offensive, the daughter of a Vietnamese mother and an American soldier. She lost...
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- [00:00]
A
Staying connected matters. That's why AT&T has connectivity you can depend on, or they'll proactively make it right. That's the AT&T guarantee. Terms and conditions apply. Visit att.com guarantee for details. AT&T Connecting Changes Everything this is the 10% Happier podcast. I'm Dan Harris. Hey gang, how we doing? I think a lot about how I would talk to the version of me at 30 or 35, a guy who was kidless, obsessed with fitness, obsessed with his career, massively ambitious. That dude would have been deeply skeptical of the idea of speaking to himself lovingly, which is what we're going to talk about on the podcast today. So what would I say to that version of myself? I think what I would say is, bro, get over yourself. There is a ton of scientific evidence to show that rewiring your inner dialogue and counter programming against your inner critic has pretty serious psychological and physiological benefits. It'll probably help you with your overall fitness and your career and your general levels of happiness. I might also quote something I heard secondhand from a meditation teacher. This is apparently something a meditation teacher said to a frustrated student who didn't like loving kindness meditation. The teacher said, if you can't be cheesy, you can't be free. So anyway, that's I think what I would say to the old me. And it's what I would say to you if you have any skepticism about the seemingly cheesy but very much evidence based notion of rewiring your inner dialogue. Today we're going to talk about a four part Buddhist practice designed to help you change your relationship with yourself. Not in a self indulgent way, but in a way that makes you a better and more constructive player in the world. As it's often said, if you can't transform your demons, you're just going to transmit them. The aforementioned four step process is called Beginning Anew and our guide for this process is Sister D. She's an incredible person. She's got an incredible story. She was born in Vietnam during the war, the daughter of a Vietnamese mother and American soldier. She lost her mom at the age of 12 and then immigrated to the US where she lived in foster homes, learned English, and went on to get a medical degree from the University of California in San Francisco. After practicing medicine for many years and dealing with even more hardships in her life, she ultimately became a Buddhist nun in the Plum Village tradition founded by the late Zen master Thich Nhat Hanh. Sister D has written several books including Healing and Also Mindfulness as medicine. This is her third appearance on the show. If you want to hear more about her backstory, I'll put some link to her earlier appearances. In this conversation we talk about the aforementioned beginning a new practice, what it is, how to do it, why it helps. We also tackle a question I hear from people all the time. Is self care, self indulgent? Spoiler alert no, we talk about the four kinds of people according to the Buddha. And we talk about the concept of a soulmate in a Buddhist context, given that the Buddha did not believe in souls. Just to say, this is part of our ongoing Reset series, which we're running throughout the month of September, a time when we're getting back to school, either literally or metaphorically. Last week we talked about resetting your nervous system. This week it's about your relationships, including your relationship to yourself. Coming up later in the month, we'll do career and also how to handle uncertainty and change in the future. Before we dive in though, let me just quickly plug a couple of things we're doing over@danharris.com first, paid subscribers now get guided meditations with every full episode designed to help you integrate what you learn on the show into your actual life. Today's meditation comes from our Teacher of the Month, Vinnie Ferraro, and it's all about self compassion. Vinnie's hilarious and also very wise, so go check that out. We're also now doing weekly live meditation and Q and A sessions every Tuesday at 4 Eastern. The next one is tomorrow. Vinnie's doing that one solo. I'll do the one next week, so go sign up@danharris.com join the party. Oh, also, two other things to say if you want to practice meditation with me in person. I'm doing two events this fall. First, I'm going to team up with Leslie Booker, who's a great meditation teacher, on Sunday, September 21st for a half day workshop on the Dharma of Depression and Anxiety at the New York Insight Meditation Center. And then from October 24th through the 26th, I'll do a weekend thing called Meditation Party at Omega Institute, which is in upstate New York. I'll be with my friends Seben A. Selassie, Jeff Warren and Afosu Jones Corte. I'll put registration link for both of those events in the show notes. All right, we'll get started with Sister D right after this. Few things feel better than knowing someone's looking out for you. That is the spirit behind the ATT guarantee. Staying connected matters. That's why AT&T has connectivity you can depend on or they will proactively make it right. That's the AT&T guarantee, because connection should be dependable, especially in the moments that matter most. Terms and conditions apply. Visit att.comguarantee for details. AT&T connecting changes everything. You've heard me mention Function before, probably this is a company that does blood tests and other medical tests for you so you can get a kind of broader picture of what's happening in your body. And I am at this point where I had two blood tests and I'm seeing the results come in on the website and I'm waiting for the analysis from the function physician. And even as I await the analysis, the results are proving useful. I've been having a minor and annoying health problem that I've been talking to both my wife and my physician about. And also when nobody else wants to listen to me, I talk to AI and some of the results that I got from Function have actually really illuminated the discussion and pointed us, I think, in some really helpful directions. Inside Function, you can test over 160 biomarkers, from heart and hormones to toxins, inflammation and stress. It's an enhanced view of what's happening inside your body. One angle I want to hit this week is most people think if I have low iron, I'll take an iron supplement. No big deal. But having low iron might not be the issue, and supplementation could actually backfire. Iron plays several essential roles. It's part of hemoglobin, which carries oxygen in the blood, and it supports both energy production and immune function. But in order to be absorbed and transported and stored properly, iron relies on ferritin and copper. Ferritin is your iron storage protein. Think of it like a bank. Low ferritin means the body's reserves are running low. High ferritin can reflect iron overload or other stress in the body, since ferritin also rises during illness or inflammation. Copper, on the other hand, is essential for mobilizing iron from storage. So without enough copper, iron can get stuck in tissues, unable to be used. The best approach? To see a more complete picture, test your levels of all three iron, ferritin and copper. Interesting that that's the angle of the week from the folks over at Function, because iron is one of the issues that I've been looking at, and it's been really handy to have those numbers at hand. Learn more and join using our link, visit functionhealth.com happier functionhealth.com happy foreign sister D. Welcome back to the show.
- [07:49]
B
Hello Dan, I'm happy to see you.
- [07:52]
A
I'm always happy to see you. Okay, so today we're talking about a practice called beginning anew before we get into the basic steps of it. And we'll go through the steps in some pretty granular detail, just stepping all the way back. What is this practice? How did it come about? Why do you think it's so important and helpful?
- [08:12]
B
Well, in our Plum Village tradition we emphasize this practice a lot. But actually I found that in the sutra way back from the time of the Buddha, one of the Buddha's eldest disciples, his name was Shariputra, very known disciple of the Buddha before he passed away. Actually he did beginning anew with the Buddha in this sutra he said that for I have followed you all these years with the aspiration to be your disciple over many lifetimes, and this lifetime I have that chance. I have done my best to be the best student I can, but if by chance I were unskillful in any way, please forgive me. That was the essence of her saying. And I asked permission that now my body is not able to continue anymore. And I ask permission to bring to cessation this body and the body said, venerable Shariputra, if you think it is timely, then do so. I was very moved when I read the this discourse because that was the time of the Buddha. And Shariputra acknowledged all the, you know, what an amazing teacher the Buddha was to him and to everybody. And he also acknowledged he wanted to acknowledge his own unskillfulness and apologize to the Buddha. So the practice of beginning anew in the Plum Village tradition, we very much focus on that. We want to acknowled all the positive seeds, first and foremost in ourselves and then in each other. For a relationship to be healthy and long lasting, we need to do that. We have a tendency to focus on the negativity, but to be able to focus on the positivity that gives us more strength, more faith, more confidence in ourselves and in the relationship. And then the second part of beginning anew is that we express regrets, whatever that we have done unskillfully in thoughts, speech and behaviors. We acknowledge that I personally emphasize a lot on self beginning anew. The practice is usually known for us to do in relationships, but I see that the relationship with ourselves is foremost important. If we can practice beginning anew with ourselves, not just once in a while, but in our daily life, then it makes it possible for us to do beginning anew with others. So to express regrets is also very important. And then the third step of Beginning anew is to express hurts, hurts that we experience in ourselves, in the relationship, hurts that are caused by ourselves, each other. And to be able to express that openly. We can go more in depth later on, but that's just an introduction. And then the fourth part is to find a way out some resolutions so that unskillfulness can be avoided or minimized and that the strengths in ourselves and in our relationships can be cultivate it further. So those are four steps of beginning anew in brief and a little background.
- [12:11]
A
I appreciate that. And just to see if I can sum it up, this is a four part process that is, as you said, you know, has its antecedents in the. In the ancient Buddhist texts from several millennia ago, but it's been used in modern times to great effect within the Plum Village community, which was founded by the great and late Zen master Thich Nhat Hanh. And there are really four steps, and usually this is done between people. And there are four steps. You know, it starts with gratitude and then the expression of regrets or apologies, then the expression of, you know, hurts on both sides. And then finally resolutions like what can we do about whatever vestigial or residual issues are in the relationship? And what you're saying is that actually you can do this process on yourself.
- [13:03]
B
You understand me well.
- [13:08]
A
You understand me well because you clearly understand that I'm always looking for a gold star. This is mutual understanding. Let me ask you before we go through the four steps again, as potentially applied to our own inner work, before we go through those four steps of beginning anew and talk a little bit in more detail about how we can do it ourselves, let me ask you just a higher level question, which is something I hear a lot is focusing on myself is self indulgent. Why would I do that? What do you say to people who have that concern?
- [13:44]
B
Well, focusing on ourselves, it has different levels and different ways. When in our spiritual practice, it doesn't mean being a diva. Yeah. So it's not about dressing up oneself, putting up an appearance, impressing others with our appearance or what we have. That's being a diva, and that's not taking care of ourselves. Actually, many of us know this. When we put an outward appearance so much, we forget who we are and we forget our real needs. We are not a good friend or soulmate to ourselves. So in a spiritual dimension, you know, in our practice, we practice with the insight of inter being. You've seen the Yin Yang being the yin Yang sign, it has a circle and half of the circle is black. And Half is white and in the white part there's a black dot, and on the black half there's a white dot. So the black is in the white, the white is in the black. Now, for example, our society now with all the changes, all the upheavals, people can feel very overwhelmed and paralyzed. But if we understand that in society they are us as individuals, then if each individual learns to take care of ourselves, begin anew with ourselves in terms of taking better care of the positive seeds in us, like the seed of inclusiveness, of love, of patience, of tolerance, of understanding. If we do that and transform bit by bit the seeds of biases, of discrimination, of hatred, anger, confusion, then collectively our society will be able to move forward in a positive direction. You see? So this is in spiritual practice, we take responsibility for ourselves, knowing that we affect the world, because in the world there are us and in us there is the world. So that's the difference, being a diva versus being a soulmate to oneself.
- [16:15]
A
As well said, and I completely agree, and I'm remembering there's a sutta or sutra from the Buddhist texts where two acrobats are talking to each other and they're doing these acrobatic routines where, yes, it can be dangerous if you mess it up. And one says to the other, well, if we look out for each other, we'll be okay. And the wiser one says, no, if you look out for yourself, yes, and I look out for myself, then we'll be okay.
- [16:41]
B
Yes, yes. That was a grandfather and a granddaughter doing the acrobats together for their living.
- [16:49]
A
I think when people think about self care as self indulgent, what they're missing is what you call inter being. What they're missing is that the line between self and world is much blurrier and more porous. That concern is based on the misapprehension that somehow we are separate from the world, that we're separate selves.
- [17:14]
B
Yes, in this individualistic society we think we are separate from others. But you know, briefly, the Buddha has a teaching on the four kinds of people and he addressed just that. The first kind of people, they don't care about their own well being or the well being of others. And I find that very hurt people have to shut down. They numb themselves so they don't take good care of themselves, and of course they hurt others. But the second kind of people are those who take care of others, but not themselves, not their own well being. And we see that most of us in society as doctors, parents, teachers, caretakers, most of us, actually, we do our best to take care of others, to help change society, policies, etc. But peace activists can be very angry. So we're not taking care of our own peace. And how can we bring peace if we have no peace? You see? So that's the second kind of people our society is mostly about. But the third kind of people, the Buddha said, are those who care for their well being, but not others. And the Buddha said the third kind of people are more superior, more desirable than the first two kinds. It doesn't sound very Buddhist, does it? But in truth is that when we learn to take care of ourselves, what I call as a soulmate, literally the definition of a soulmate in Vietnamese, is one who knows, who remembers, who takes care, who masters oneself. Ki means oneself. So our soulmate is us who learn to remember our body, to take care of our feelings, thoughts, our pain, suffering, trauma, conflicts. That's a soulmate. And when we can be the third kind of people, naturally we have more than enough love and understanding and energy and faith to help others. So the third kind of people naturally become the fourth kind of people, which are those who care for their own well being and the well being of others. So again, going back to beginning anew, that is why I want to emphasize self beginning anew because it is being a soulmate to ourselves. And then we can begin anew with our relationships with those who are close to us or, or those who are at work in society, in the world. We can also begin anew.
- [20:10]
A
If you think about these four types that you just enumerated, it seems like there's a pitfall, a potential trapdoor in type number three, where you become a diva. But you can only advance to number four if you don't fall into the diva trapdoor.
- [20:29]
B
Exactly. And one knows the difference, and everybody around them know the difference. When one is being a diva, being just, you know, flashy outside, concerned with their outward appearance, the outward show, versus one who is going back inside to find a way out, is to go back, to go inward, to care for oneself, to take care of your anger, your confusion, your sadness, and to uplift oneself from that. That's a big difference.
- [21:03]
A
I'm curious about this term soulmate. It strikes me, and you know way more about the Dharma than I do. So I'm saying this with some humility, but it strikes me as kind of not very Buddhist, because, you know, the Buddha, his whole philosophy was that there is no soul, there is no core sister D behind your eyes, or no core dan between My ears. And so I'm curious about your use of that term.
- [21:28]
B
Well, I ask children, teenagers and adults numerous times what they think a soulmate is. And they always said, somebody who understands you, who loves you unconditionally, who's always there for you through the thick and the thin. But the definition of a true soulmate is not somebody else. It's us. Like I said, you know, ji means to remember, to know, to take care of, to master. And gi is oneself. It's not about somebody else knowing that oneself is. You know, the individuals make up the collective, and the collective is made up of individuals. So if we take care of one person, we'll take care of many. You see, because we are not separate. We are all very interdependent. Just like a storm. Like recently we had a tsunami in Russia and here in Hawaii, in California, many coastlines were. We were affected. Right. A fire in California a few years ago, and the smoke went all the way to the east coast and to Europe. That's what we're talking about, interbeing. You see, climate change, how we have exploited Mother Earth resources, and now we are suffering from, you know, the heat, the cold, the wild variations in the climate and everything else. So that's what we mean by interbeing. And one can be so overwhelmed and paralyzed when you see the big issues. But if we see that each one of us is contributing to what is happening for the better and the worst, then we come back to learn to take care of ourselves, to build community that is more supportive and more embracing so that we can help influence each other in a more positive, loving way, kinder, with greater kindness.
- [23:38]
A
Yeah, I buy all of that, but just on the soulmate part of it, I think what you're saying, and you'll correct me, I hope. I think what you're saying is that if we can learn to get off our own back and have our own back, if we can learn to be our own best friend, yes, that has geopolitical consequences because it will definitely, you know, ripple out into the world. But it doesn't mean that we're falling into the illusion that there is some separate, fixed Dan who is becoming best friends with itself. It's more that you understand that the way the mind works is it's a set of impersonal, impermanent sensations coming and going. And there may be patterns within you that are problematic. Personality patterns, personality traits, neurotic patterns that are problematic. And then you also have these patterns that are loving. And can you channel the loving parts of you to minister internally to the wounded or hurt or dysfunctional parts of you. Am I in the zone of accuracy here?
- [24:46]
B
Yes, absolutely. You know, the fear and confusion about taking care of oneself also reflects how alienated we are with ourselves. You know, and I see this in a lot of young people. We have retreats here. We go on tour, teaching tour. Recently I just went in May, I met so many young people, teenagers and young adults. They are so much like online that now it starts to show a lot of effects. They become like robots. You know how we have humanoid robots? Well, now we have robotic humans. People become very numb, very socially awkward. There were young teenagers who couldn't really speak. They have autistic like symptoms. They have a lot of anxiety and depression, very afraid of crowds, even their own parents, they are not able to connect. So we are becoming more robotic humans, very alienated from our own bodies. You can sit at a computer for eight hours and you forget that you have a body, that you have needs in your body and in your mind and in your relationship. You forget all about that. So I see that people are becoming less and less human and more and more robot. But I tell the young people, even if you have only 1% human left in you, you still suffer because that 1% humanness in us still need, still have the need to love, to be loved and to be free. To be free in the sense of being liberated from our own suffering, from our own cult views. And we're not born to just live, work and die, and then live and hate and revenge and die. We are also spiritual beings, you see. And many of them, when I ask them, what is the percentage of robot in you? Actually, some said 80%, many said 50% or 20%, you see. So going back to being a soulmate to oneself, the only way to save really our human race, what is unique about us, our consciousness, our love, our capacity to understand others in a magnanimous way, is to be more human, not to be more robot, to remain, to maintain and cultivate and preserve our humanness. So being our soulmate helps us that, to remember that we have a body, we need to take care of it. Because if we don't take good care of this body, like this young generation, if they neglect, when they give both of us to their children, their children will carry on certain traits like being socially awkward, you know, by being numb, anxious, depression, all of these traits are transmissible, can be transmitted genetically as well as, you know, environmentally to the latter generations. That's nature and nurture working together. So this is real. If we do not take care of ourselves, whatever that we cannot transform, we will transmit.
- [28:36]
A
Coming up, Sister D talks about the beginning, a new practice. You know those moments when someone just takes care of something for you? That's what ATT is doing. With the ATT guarantee, staying connected matters. That's why AT&T has connectivity you can depend on, or they will proactively make it right. That's the AT&T guarantee. Because staying connected isn't optional, it's essential. And ATT wants you to feel that somebody's got your back. Terms and conditions apply. Visit att.comguarantee for details. AT&T connecting changes everything. As we switch from summer to the fall and the weather's starting to cool down a little bit, I really want to squeeze all the juice out of my outdoor space. I want to make it warm and cozy. And Wayfair is a great place to do this. As your trusted destination for all things home, Wayfair's got everything you need to get cozify your space this fall, from comfy recliners to warm bedding and autumn decor. Wayfair even has espresso makers so you can make that latte at home. They've got great stuff, not only for your outdoor space, but also your indoor space. My wife has been on a binge of ordering these beautiful translucent bookshelves, these kind of modular bookshelves with wheels that you can really easily move around the room. And she's got this expanding collection of books that she places in these bookshelves, and they look really beautiful in her home office. Cozify your space with Wayfair's curated collection of easy, affordable fall updates. Find it all for way less@wayfair.com that's W-A-Y-F-A-I-R.com Wayfair Every style, every home. You articulate the stakes very well. So let's go through again, in more detail, the beginning, a new practice. Let's go through one step at a time so that I can ask you annoying questions to make sure I understand fully. Before we get into the step, let me ask, should we do this in meditation? Can we do it just walking around, you know, thinking, what's the best setting for enacting this?
- [31:04]
B
Oh, wonderful. We can do this in any setting. I usually do this in meditation, in sitting meditation, but throughout the day, even when I'm sitting in a toilet stall, I can give thanks to myself, watering my flowers. I don't have to do all four steps at once, you see. So for example, I have pain from Lyme disease. So there are times when I'm sitting in public or private, I'm lying in bed and there's pain. Then I scan through my body and I give thanks to my body for carrying that burden of pain for me. And I also express my regrets to my body that in the past, through my unskillful thoughts of self harm, unskillful speech of putting myself down, self sabotaging, etc. That I have also contributed to the weakness of my body so that, you know, now it can bring about certain illness in myself, you see? So beginning anew can be anytime and anywhere. While you're driving a car, something comes up. You can say, I'm sorry that happened, I'm sorry that I thought so negatively about myself. I don't mean that.
- [32:26]
A
So this, this is key. You can do it anytime, anywhere and in any proportion. In other words, you can pick one step and do it in the bathroom or driving. It's really, you know, dealer's choice.
- [32:38]
B
Exactly. And the foundation of the practice is that we use loving speech and deep listening. Loving speech is a kind of speech that inspires understanding, confidence, a speech that uplifts. Even if we express pain, we still need to use loving speech. In the way that your actions make me feel, like this, you know, or this is how I feel versus you are like this. You are bad, you are horrible, you know, that's not loving speech. So we learn to use that loving speech towards ourselves to say, I'm sorry, I didn't know, or I could have done better, but I'm very sorry I hurt myself. That's loving speech. And then deep listening means that when we listen. So in sitting meditation, I would follow my breath, I would stay anchored in my body and thoughts would arise in my mind, you see? And I would listen without judgment, without trying to fear it a certain way. I just stay anchored in my breath and my body and I listen. That's deep listening. Without trying to influence yourself or the other person, without imposing certain judgment or reasons. Just listen to hear what is said and what is not said. Verbally, non, verbally listen with a very spacious and quiet mind. And it helps if you follow your breath and relax your body and you can say, come back, Come back. So practicing deep listening and loving speech, that's what we do in sitting meditation. Day in, day out. We listen to ourselves and we speak lovingly to ourselves. Loving. It doesn't mean you are not honest. You're very frank, honest, open with yourself, but with compassion, with Kindness. You do that, and then we will be able to practice that with others.
- [34:56]
A
I will have done a little bit of this in the intro, but I want to say it again to my fellow skeptics, especially dudes who might be hearing this thing about speaking lovingly to yourself and. But this is not just men who might have this reaction. It's all good. I. I hear you. I sympathize with you. I'm speaking lovingly to you right now. I get it. This sounds cheesy. It sounds embarrassing. Want anybody to know I'm doing this? Nobody has to know you're doing it. But you should know that there's a ton of science to show that if you can counter program against your inner critic, if you can rewire your inner dialogue and thereby improve your inner weather, it will have all sorts of positive psychological and physiological effects. So Sister D is not just making this up. It's been around for a millennia and there's modern science to show that it's really, really good for you. I feel the necessity to say that to the skeptics in the audience. How does that go down with you?
- [35:59]
B
Well, you know, in neuroscience, we know that there's the default mode network, known as DMN in our brain. When we're not doing anything, you know, we're not busy, or even when we're busy, this default mode network is on and it's chewing. It's like, you know, a cow that regurgitate and then will chew again, whatever that happened. We have this ingrained in our mind, rehearsing, going over again, unfortunately, going over and over again the negative things about ourselves and others. And it's very detrimental when it's done automatically and unconsciously unknown to us. And so you think of this very manly in the sense that, you know, visually you got two boxers. One boxer keeps hitting the other boxer and the other one, he'll get up, he'll try to get up, he'll try to get up again. But after a while, if one just keeps punching, the other will not be able to get up anymore. Well, that's what we do with the inner critic. We let this DMN default mode network on all the time when we're awake and when we're sleeping, eventually we lose all the faith and hope for ourselves. And of course, then we would lose all the faith and hope for humanity, you see. So mindfulness, self awareness helps us to be aware of this and to counterbalance it by bringing in that loving speech and deep listening, breathing in. I'm aware that I'm thinking very negative about myself. What I did yesterday, I think it was stupid, it was dumb, what I said, what I did. Then you say, I'm sorry. Yes, maybe I could have prepared myself better. Or you can say, I did my best, I can learn from it, and I can move on from it. I'm sorry. I put myself in that situation too, and it feels bad. You see what I mean? You still acknowledge the situation, but you don't have to keep, like, punching yourself, getting yourself down on your knees. And then you cannot even get up to do better for your own sake and for the sake of your family and society. Many people in high position, they can be very aggressive, can be very violent. But deep inside is a wounded child. All the insecurity they experience because they were harmed, they were hurt, they were bullied, and now they become big bullies. That is, when we don't take care of ourselves, then we will hurt others. Another concrete example. I met this woman, and she said to me, sister D. The first time that I met the man who became my husband, he felt so familiar to me. And that's why she was attracted to him. And she said, but I didn't know why. Not only after I got married to him. Then I realized that he's just as emotionally absent as my parents. That's what she was attracted to, his emotional absence. So when we are not aware of ourselves, of what we carry deep within, we will perpetuate it in our life and in the lives of others. You see? So being a soulmate to oneself, again, to remember, to take care of, to know oneself, to take care of and to master ourselves is to help our family and society.
- [40:05]
A
Yeah. I sometimes look out at the world as like all of these untrained minds, all of these people who haven't had the benefit of learning about the various modalities for training your mind, including meditation and the Dharma. And they're kicking their own ass, walking around with untreated trauma from their parents and the world, the larger culture, and then taking it out on other people, passing along their pathology willy nilly. And so then we get this rolling shit show of history. But the good news is that it is possible to end the cycle right here in your own mind. You can stop adding to the garbage and instead add light.
- [40:48]
B
Exactly. So not taking of yourself is being incredibly selfish.
- [40:56]
A
Yes, yes. Not thinking of yourself, not taking care of yourself is incredibly selfish. Yes, I'm writing that down. Okay. As I write that down, let's just go back to step number one, which you Call watering the flowers or expressing gratitude toward yourself. Can you just walk us through how one would do that very practically?
- [41:18]
B
Okay, like in society, we say thank you all the time, right, for small things. But how often do we thank ourselves? So the first step of watering flowers simply is to thank yourself, thank your body, whatever that you can come up with. Like a teen with NASA would say, I'm grateful for my body, for being healthy so that I can do a lot of outdoor activities, for example. I'm grateful for my eyes. I'm grateful for being patient, for example, or being caring. So you acknowledge your physical and emotional intellectual qualities. You thank yourself for the efforts you made. Like this morning when I was not feeling so well, I took a moment to just sit very still and I said to myself, thank you for always trying, my dear. I call myself my dear, my love, honey, sister D. Or my little sister, my sister, you know, just acknowledge. Recognize the efforts you make throughout the day. Doesn't matter if it's big or small, great or not. Just acknowledge that is uplifting yourself. Many of us are quite insecure. We need affirmation from others. We wait for praises from others. We wait for others to tell us that they love us. But the truth is that if we are lucky to have some people who give those things to us, we wouldn't feel it deep in our hearts anyway, because we don't believe it, you see. But if we can practice that, giving thanks to ourselves, very often in our daily life, we give the acknowledgment to ourselves, the recognition to ourselves, then that's inner strength. We don't need to wait for others to do it for us. That's being self love and self sufficient. And from that place you will be more generous to recognize that in others, even if they are causing you pain or causing you irritation, you can still see the goodness, the efforts that they are making. So that is learning to appreciate oneself. And also like in the computer terms we talk about, you know, if the computer is stuck, like this morning, I tried to get on to connect with you and the computer just froze. So what I did, I turned it off, I restarted, I refresh it, you know, I reboot it. So that's what we do. The same thing we do, but unfortunately we don't do that with ourselves. But we can through the practice of beginning anew. When you feel a little down or you're stuck, just refresh, restart by taking a moment to sit quietly, come back to your in breath and your out breath. As it is, that is also beginning Anew, no words. But you start afresh with your breath, becoming aware that you're still alive. However horrible the situation is, you're still alive. You still have a body, you see? And then you can say, I know you're tired and I'm grateful for all your efforts. I love you. Thank you. If you just say that to yourself in those moments, that's such deep consolation, such deep love. You see how it's different from if you are, like, tired, then you're like, oh, I'm so stupid. I can't get anything done. Oh, I have so much things. Things to do that just clutter yourself more. It's like punching yourself yet another time. So we have a choice. Make sure we make a wise choice in this way.
- [45:41]
A
Within this context of thanking yourself, expressing gratitude to yourself, you've said that it can be helpful in moving from a scarcity mindset to an enoughness mindset.
- [45:52]
B
Thank you.
- [45:53]
A
Can you explain what you mean by that?
- [45:55]
B
Wonderful. A scarcity mindset many of us operate on, I'm not good enough. I'm not enough. And so whatever we do, again, is not enough. And it doesn't make us good enough either. That's a scarity mindset. So it's like we're drowning and we're like, trying to get some air, but it's just never enough. And of course, if we're not enough, then others are not enough either. And so this world is just impoverished through our lens, through our negative views. But if we recognize that, you know the Chinese character for enough, it has a mouth, a straight line for the body, vertical line, a horizontal line for an arm, and then two crosses for two legs. That stands for enough. If you got a head, a mouth, you get a body, you get one arm only and two legs. That's enough. You see what I mean? Then we see, you know, like, we have more than enough. We still have this body with all the organs intact. We still have a job, still have a roof over our head. There are people who have a lot less than us, and yet if they know that they have enough, then they are actually richer than us in their mind. And actually in the teaching of the Buddha, there's this line, if you know that you are enough, that you have enough, that is the most wealth, that's the wealthiest thing. So it's not that you accumulate more things, more titles, more honors, more successes, that you are rich, you are wealthy, you are powerful. It is in knowing that you have enough, in knowing that you are enough, that you are the wealthiest person. Isn't that great?
- [47:58]
A
It's great. And I'm just reflecting honestly on how I struggle with this, you know, having been raised in late stage capitalist America and, and watching TV shows growing up called Lifestyles of the Rich and Famous. And, you know, it's still. Even after doing 800 interviews for this podcast and 15, 16 years of pretty dedicated meditation, I still have. I can still see in me the lack of enoughness.
- [48:25]
B
Then it goes back to inter being. Your view is not your view, my dear. Your view has been inculcated, ingrained in you from your parents, from your society, from all these generations. So if Dan Harris can transform this view by recognizing, wow, I still have my head, nice hair, right? My eyes still, you know, healthy, don't have to wear glasses. You still have teeth to smile. Such a nice smile, right? You still have a body. Not bad, right? And you do meaningful things in the world. I just went to a retreat at Omega Institute in New York, and there were a couple of people who said they found out about our tradition through your podcast, my dear.
- [49:16]
A
Oh, that's great.
- [49:17]
B
Isn't that wonderful? So you are influencing people in the world. You are doing good. But if you don't recognize that, then who can feel that they are enough, that they have done enough, you see? So Dan Harris practices. He will help so many others see that they are more than enough, that they have more than enough. So in knowing that you have enough, that you are enough, that you become the wealthiest person. And it's a practice of being mindful of what we have. And as long as you're still breathing, you still have a lot. And as long as you live in this country, you still have a lot more than many people all over the.
- [50:02]
A
World, even with its problems, no question. Yes, that was extremely helpful. I really appreciate it. I could put that on a loop and play it to myself every day. Just a question that goes back to the Buddhist concept of the self being an illusion, which, again, I just want to say to people listening that I know a lot of people, you know, come to Buddhism because they want a little more calm in their life, and then they, you know, wash up on the rocky shores of this. Of this very hard to grok concept of the self being an illusion. The key to understanding, in my opinion, is two things are true at the same time. One, on one level, you're you are you, dear listener to this show, you are you. You had to, you know, make the affirmative decision to listen to this podcast. And you're moving through the world right now. And you're you. On a deeper level, if we took a high powered microscope and applied it to your body, you know, it would be mostly subatomic particles spinning through empty space. So. So ultimately, there is no core graspable nugget of you. And so it's about understanding these two truths simultaneously. That's how I handle it. And Sister D, I'm sure you'll leap in here and correct any errors I've made. But it just kind of gets to this question that keeps coming up in my mind. When you talk about talking to yourself more lovingly. Who is talking to who?
- [51:25]
B
There's no who. At least there's this body. There are these thoughts, and we work with that. Ultimately, if you have high blood pressure or heart disease, it's usually genetic, right? If your child has schizophrenia, that's usually genetic too. So it's a transmission from previous generations to this generation. So yes, on the one hand, there is me, Sister D, there's you, Dan Harris, and the listeners. And at the same time, we have our ancestors in us their genetic contribution. They're not just physical traits, you know, their anxiety, their depression, their trauma. We have received everything of them. They have transmitted everything of themselves to us. And that is from the self, it goes to non self. That's the transition. Because if we say, this is me, I have nothing to do with my parents. Once I turn 18 and move out of the house, I have nothing to do with my parents. But you recognize, wow, when you get married, somehow you recognize you behave just like your parents. I talked to a man recently. He said between my parents, they went through five divorces. And me, I just got a divorce the second time. And I really don't want to repeat this. He's not a big Buddhist or anything. He just came to the practice. But he had inner wisdom to realize he's repeating what his parents have done, you see, and he doesn't want that. That's why he came to the practice in order to not repeat that pattern in his parents. Recently, I also helped a mother and daughter to do. Beginning anew, they express gratitude to each other, to themselves. First they water three seeds of, you know, three flowers in themselves and then three flowers in each other. And then they also expressed their regrets. And then when we went to her, the girl, you know, she practiced cutting. This little girl, I mean, only 15 years old, and her arms are full of cuts, okay? And she also picked her skin, very big patches on her face as well. And she also pulled her hair. But she apologized for many things. But she Never mentioned her body. And then I said, what about your body? Can you express regret to your body? And she stayed silent for a long time. And I said, what about you picking on your skin, causing it to bleed like that? There were some very fresh wounds. And she said, I don't want to apologize because I know I'm not going to stop. So anyway, after a while I told her, express your regret and say, I want to love you better. I want to take better care of you. And she did. You know what? When it was her mother's toes, she undid her watch and she showed her wrist to her daughter and she said, I'm so sorry I transmitted to you. These are scars. I started cutting myself too. For many years, the daughter had never known. She's 16 years old, but she never knew. Her mother also practiced kanji until now. Her mother showed her the scars and told her so. That is transmission, you see. Transmission of the sadness, of the pain, of the trauma from mother to daughter, unspoken through unspoken language. But the daughter is repeating without knowing that she's repeating her mother's pattern. That is when for myself we go to non self speaking, very concretely, I don't want to go to subatomic particles and things because people like, you know, but that's something very like at a gross level, very obvious, very concrete, touchable. That's true. Beginning anew that the mother was able to tell her daughter something that she hid all these years. She showed her concerns towards her daughter. She cried when she saw those wounds on her daughter. But her daughter never knew. But from that conversation, the daughter realized that while I am repeating my mother's pattern, that my body is my mother's body. So when I pick on my skin like that, my mother feels that pain. And if I learn to take care of my sadness, of my confusion and take care of my skin, that is the best way I can help my mother heal. My mother inside me and thankfully my mother outside me, she's still alive and we can help each other to heal. It's that concrete? Is that real?
- [57:06]
A
I like your version better. Coming up, Sister D talks about the remaining three steps of the beginning. A new process. Practice. Keep it here. This episode is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Fiscally responsible financial geniuses, monetary magicians. These are things people say about drivers who switch their car insurance to Progressive and save hundreds. Visit progressive.com to see if you could save Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates. Potential savings will vary. Not available in all states or situations. This show is sponsored by BetterHelp I'm sure you may have done this before you you turned to your barista or your hairdresser or just a random stranger for life advice. And as fun as this can be, and sometimes surprisingly helpful when you're really looking for help with your relationships or something more serious like anxiety or depression or other clinical issues, random strangers may not have all the right answers. Instead, it might make sense to get guidance from a credentialed, experienced therapist online with Better Help. You've heard me talk about this before. This is not my phrase, but I love it. It's incredibly important to never worry alone. We are social species and I'm a big believer in talking as long as it's not inappropriate or oversharing with many, many people in my life about the various issues I'm dealing with. But I also put a huge premium on talking to somebody whose job it is to help people with things like anxiety and depression. Particularly for me, anxiety and Better Help has been helping people find their match when it comes to Therapists for over 10 years and has a 4.9 rating out of 1.77 million client session reviews. Better Help therapists work according to a strict code of conduct and are fully licensed in the US BetterHelp does the initial matching work for you so you can focus on your therapy goals. A short questionnaire helps identify your needs and preferences and then their 10 plus years of experience and industry leading match fulfillment rate means they typically get it right the first time. And if you're not happy with your match, you can switch to a different, different therapist at any time with their tailored recommendations. As the largest online therapy provider in the world, BetterHelp can provide access to mental health professionals with a diverse variety of expertise. Our listeners get 10% off their first month@betterhelp.com happier that's better hp.com happier I'm aware that we've only got 30 minutes left and I'd like to move through the remaining three steps of the beginning again, practice as applied to oneself. So if you're up for it, let's talk about the second step, which is saying I'm sorry or expressing regrets.
- [60:08]
B
Yes, we actually went through a lot of that in our conversation earlier. Expressing regrets to be able to say to ourselves I am sorry. I have been unskillful towards myself in my thoughts. I've been self sabotaging in my speech. I've been negative in my actions like picking my skin, pulling my hair, trying to hurt myself in any way, or trying to walk away from situations before I actually Fail like we do. That self fulfilling prophecy, oh, I'm not going to be able to do it anyway. So we walk away from the situation and then we say, see, I couldn't finish it, I couldn't succeed it anyway. So we recognize those negative coping mechanisms that we have done to ourselves. Maybe when we were children, others put us down, our parents were unskillful to us, but now as victims, we have become perpetrators and we continue those patterns from our parents or we continue to try to escape or you know, to run away or to shut down, to numb ourselves or to keep fighting. All those patterns, all those ways of coping maybe worked at one point in our life, but now it just becomes a habit and a personality. We need to recognize those patterns and to say, I'm sorry that I continue to do that to myself, help me to do better, help me to change that. I deserve that. We need to say to ourselves, I deserve healing, I deserve transformation. Because my healing and transformation will be the healing and transformation of my parents as well as of my children and the younger generations. So expressing regrets, being really open and honest with ourselves, you know, about our unskillfulness, is very important. I often tell young people, you can fool others, but make sure you don't fool yourself. You can lie to others, but make sure you don't lie to yourself. When I, you know, helped that young teenager and she wouldn't even look at her body or express any regret about her body and I pointed to her about the scars and the scaps on her arms, on her face, she smiled and I said, do you remember what denial stands for? And she had this smirk on her face and she said, don't even know I'm lying. I said, you're such a good disciple because I've taught them that, you know, I've taught many young people denial can stand for don't even know I'm lying. Okay? So make sure you don't lie to yourselves. Make sure you just say I'm sorry to yourself and it actually feels good. Some of us who have been hurt and abused, we wait for the perpetrator to say sorry to us. A woman on her dying bed is still waiting for her husband to say sorry because he betrayed her in the past. And if we're lucky, they say sorry, but we can practice that for ourselves. You can say, I'm sorry that I have become a perpetrator. I'm sorry that I'm unkind and unsupportive of myself. And from that place, you don't need to Wait for others to apologize. And I share with this mother and daughter. When you can begin anew with yourself in this way, you don't even need to forgive the perpetrator. The forgiveness, it just takes place by itself. We are hurt. That's why we need others, you know, to forgive others. But when we heal this wound, you realize that the perpetrators out there, they also have been victims. They've also learned, witnessed those kind of negative behaviors they've also experienced that hurt people, hurt people. That's why they perpetuate that kind of pain. So if we learn to be our own soulmate again and care for ourselves, begin anew with ourselves, then our heart becomes wide open and magnanimous to help care for others instead of pining away, dying instead of truly living and truly giving to life.
- [65:20]
A
What is the difference between. I understand it when you're doing beginning anew with two people, but when you're doing it with yourself, what's the difference between step two, which is saying I'm sorry, and step three, which is expressing hurts or you know, describing the things that have been done wrong.
- [65:40]
B
Oh, that's good. Then they overlap a little bit. Yeah, they overlap. So we can go to the third part. Okay. Expressing hurts that have been done when we do self beginning anew that been done with ourselves. So yes, it's overlap like I'm sorry, you know, I don't take care of my body, I do self harm, I entertain, you know, suicidal ideation, etc. Please help me to find a way out so you can express all that so that overlaps with the second one. Also a lot of time either we don't acknowledge our denial. We are not even aware that we have been hurt. Some people, they don't remember their childhood, the abuse that they went through, until when they are older, they practice meditation and then certain memories will resurface. So hurt can be deeply entrenched that we are not aware of. So we need to sit more quietly with ourselves and over time we can realize why we are the way we are. This is because that is. This is not. Because that is not. That is inter being. You know, you have everything in your life and yet you are not happy. It's because there are certain issues in your life have not been addressed, have not been healed. Also, people don't want to express hurts because it makes them feel vulnerable. So we try to sweep it under the carpet to ignore it because we're afraid we cannot handle it. Also, we don't want to express hurts because we are afraid that we'll be misunderstood by others, you see, or others don't really receive it well, and they will lash back at us. So it is threatening, it is scary to make ourselves vulnerable. So again, doing self beginning anew is important because of that. That's how I see it. We can learn to be vulnerable to ourselves. We can learn to be there for the vulnerable, wounded child in us and to reassure them. I'm here for you. I'm here to practice deep listening with you. I'm here to practice loving speech with you. Tell me, talk to me. Help me to be there for you. Help me to care for you. Now I'm an adult. Now I'm a teenager. I can take care of you. So if you are able to allow the child in you to express hurts, if you are able to express hurts to yourself, then you build that internal strength. You are not so fragile and so vulnerable to yourself and to others.
- [68:43]
A
So if I understand it correctly, step two of apologizing, that's basically saying to the body or to yourself, you know, I've been speaking unskillfully about myself to myself or to others, or I've been mistreating my body, I'm going to apologize. With step three, it's about admitting one's own wounds to oneself, even if one is not willing to admit them to others.
- [69:11]
B
Yes, yes. Deeper levels. The step three is deeper. Going deeper than step two. Yeah.
- [69:20]
A
And it may also be in step two, mistakes that I made vis a vis myself. And in step three, it might be admitting the mistreatment I suffered on at the hands of others.
- [69:33]
B
Exactly.
- [69:34]
A
But that I don't necessarily want to admit.
- [69:36]
B
Exactly. Right. And when we do beginning anew with each other, for example, if I do beginning anew with you for step two, I can say, I'm sorry, Dan, you know, I said something, I thought it was funny. But maybe you didn't feel it was funny. Maybe you felt I tried to put you down, for example, like that. You see, because sometimes when we are funny, trying to be funny or sarcastic, it can be also hurtful, or you mean to do well, you buy a gift, but the person doesn't appreciate it because the person doesn't like that particular food or that particular kind of flower, you see? So if we love but without understanding, then our love can also be misplaced or misunderstood or can be suffocating. So we can also express that we are sorry. And then the third part, you have done that to hurt me many years ago, or, you know, I feel disrespected by you or I feel unheard, unseen by the way we don't communicate with each other. So that's like deeper hurts.
- [70:50]
A
Okay, so let's talk about the fourth step, which is resolutions. Yeah, can you talk about how we would carry that or enact operationalize that step?
- [71:01]
B
The fourth step is to find resolution. It's important because in relationships, even if we can say I'm sorry, you know, I'm sorry I did that, I'm sorry I drank again, I did drugs again, or I'm sorry I checked out and I stay in my room for eight hours without talking to you. But if we keep doing it again and again, then our apologies become meaningless. We lose faith in each other. So to find concrete resolution to remedy the situation is very important. And the same thing, it starts with ourselves. We need to build trust and confidence in ourselves through hurt and pain. Many of us actually lose faith in ourselves through the modality of checking out, trying to escape situation, escaping ourselves. We really feel we cannot be there for ourselves. We're not able to resolve conflicts. So not only you lose faith in the adults who hurt you, but you have also lost faith in yourself as children and then as adults. So thay our teacher has taught the way out is in. The way out is in. The way out is not to going further outward to seek entertainment and diversion, to forget and suppress. The way out is in. And it makes a full cycle of learning to be one's own soulmate, to sit with oneself, listen to your breathing pattern. Oh, I'm having a stress breathing pattern right now. I'm going through a stress response right now. Now using the mindful breath, just being aware of the in breath as it is, the out breath as it is. You anchor your mind in your breath, in your body. Your breathing becomes more relaxed, your body becomes more calm, you're self regulating. And then you listen to what's arising in your thoughts and your feeling and you practice loving speech and deep listening to that. That is the way out is in. You're going back in and the certain wounds will arise, will speak to you, but you will be in such a stable posture that you say, I'm here to listen to you, help me not to run away from you anymore. You understand? Your situation is such that at this time, because of what happened five years ago, 10 years ago, even 20, 30 years ago, that is the way out is in. We see the roots of the problem. We don't, you know, like take care of the problem by the branch. Like you cut something at the branch, but at the roots it's diseased, it's not tended, then it will give out more disease or sick branches and leaves. So we take care of the problem at the root. And mindful breathing can help. You can learn more about our practice through the Plum Village tradition. We practice mindful walking. We practice deep relaxation. All of these practices is to come back in and you know what? The stress and pain in our life is expressed in our body. We may not be aware of it, but in your breathing pattern. Short, shallow, rapid. Your face may be full of tension, may be full of creases. People who frown a lot, they have many lines on their forehead, between their eyebrows, at the edge of their mouth. We carry our trauma. The shoulders might stick, stoop over. We may have a hunchback. Our arms, our hands are tense or restless. All that expresses a lot of stress, emotional stress. So if we learn to be aware of the body, we relax, we breathe, we learn to embrace our own body. All that will help relieve the tension and the physical and mental pain. And bit by bit, bit, we make peace with ourselves, with our life. From the roots and from that place, we are able to begin anew with our loved ones. Now, in Japanese, there is this art called kintsuke. K I N T S U G I Kintsuke. When a beautiful precious vase or object is broken, they don't throw those pieces away. They actually seal these pieces together with gold. Now you have a new part, a new vase, and those cracks are highlighted, accentuated with gold. And it actually becomes even more beautiful and more exotic. You see? Now all of us will have broken pieces in our life, in our hearts. We don't have to throw those parts away. We don't have to try to come up with a drug that can erase memory. But through the practice of mindful sitting, mindful walking, loving speech, deep listening, we learn to be our own soulmate. We learn to embrace our wounded inner child. That's gold. Gold that will mend the pieces of our life, making us unique. Like you, Dan Harris. You are unique. No second person can be like you. No second person will be like me. You know, if you look at me, above my eyebrows, right in the middle, on my forehead, there is a scar. I was in so much pain as a child. At 9, I was sexually abused. I couldn't tell my mother or anybody else. So I used this Vietnamese coin that it looks like it has a star shape. So I scrub it on my forehead, and those two edges caused my skin to bleed. To scalp over and to form this scar. It's 40 something years already. And now the scar is smaller, it's lighter, but it's still there, you see? But you know what? Because I have practiced to be my own soulmate, to heal my wounded child from this God, from this trauma. I have turned that into something precious, more precious than gold. I understand suffering, and I know the way out. And I'm actively practicing it. And I'm transmitting it to you, to many young people, so that they can do the same. And maybe they are more fortunate than me. They meet their dharma earlier than me, you see? So that's kintsuke. Mending with gold. Mending our wounds with the practice of self, beginning anew. Mending our relationships with the practice of beginning anew. Fortunately, in our time, most people come together because we love each other. Not rearranged marriage or arranged marriage or something, but out of love. But after a few years, we don't appreciate each other anymore. We don't respect each other anymore. We may be together, but we are abusive and unkind to each other. And then we may commit adultery, having extra marital affairs, causing even more problems. Not long ago, I offered a consultation to a woman of Japanese descent. But she fell into that situation. And at the end, I said this to her. I said, you know, Japanese art, It's so unique and precious because it's simple and elegant. You know what? When I said that, she just broke down and cried. She just sobbed so hard. So when we suffer, when we are hurt, we hurt others. And we create more complications in our life by doing things that are not very healthy, not very helpful. We complicate ourselves. But through art has simplicity and elegance. And a beautiful life also has the elements of simplicity and elegance. And we can do this concretely in our daily life by going through these four steps. Or any one of these steps, anywhere, anytime. Just come back and be real, authentic with ourselves. You know, AI artificial intelligence going back to being non human. Well, AI can also mean authentic insight. To maintain our humanness, our spiritual being, we need to gain authenticity, insight. Not to be swept away by artificial intelligence. Authentic insight that's already innate in us. We just need to come back to quiet down, simplify our lives, make time to sit quietly, to walk in nature, to listen to ourselves, to listen to each other, to strengthen relationships from within and without. And it gives deep meaning in our lives. And it brings about healing and transformation at the base. Thank you, my dear ones.
- [82:25]
A
Sister D, I love having you on the show. I just want to remind people that Sister D has written several books. A Woman's Journey from doctor to nun. Mindfulness as medicine. Flowers in the dark.
- [82:37]
B
And the fourth book is the river in Me.
- [82:41]
A
The river in Me.
- [82:42]
B
We also have talks online on YouTube, talks from our teacher, from our monastic brothers and sisters, and many of my talks on YouTube as well.
- [82:54]
A
Okay. We will put links to those in the show notes in the meantime. And thank you for making time to do this. It's always awesome.
- [83:03]
B
Thank you. Dear Dan, thank you for all your efforts in bringing positivity into the world. Okay. And when we practice this, we are not just 10% happier, we are a whole lot happier. Okay. True happiness, deep from within. Okay. And then practice it. Practice beginning anew with yourself and your loved ones. Okay?
- [83:28]
A
Okay. Okay. I will.
- [83:30]
B
I love it because you help change many others.
- [83:34]
A
Thank you. Thank you. Thanks again to Sister D. Always love having her on the show. If you want to listen to her earlier appearances, I've dropped some links in the show notes. And if you want to go deeper on self compassion, we've got a guided meditation customized to this episode from our teacher of the month, Vinny Ferraro. Speaking of Vinny, he will be doing a live guided meditation session tomorrow, Tuesday, September 9th at 4 Eastern. We're now doing these weekly. They will feature either me or the teacher of the month or the two of us together. And finally, don't forget, if you want to practice with me in person, I've got a couple events coming up.1 on September 21st at the New York Insight Meditation center and the other on October 24th through the 26th, the weekend long thing at the Omega Institute. Links for both in the show notes. Finally, thank you so much to everybody who worked so hard on the show. Our producers are Tara Anderson, Caroline Keenan and Eleanor Vasily. Our recording and engineering is handled by the great folks over at Pod People. Lauren Smith is our managing producer. Marissa Schneiderman is our senior producer. DJ Cashmere is our executive producer. And Nick Thorburn of the band Islands wrote our theme sa.