← 13 Minutes Presents: Artemis II
13 Minutes Presents: Artemis II
Artemis II: 11. Science surprises
00:42:32
Dr Kelsey Young, lead science officer for Artemis, talks all things Moon science.
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- [00:00]
Tim Peake
This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the uk.
- [00:06]
Liberty Mutual Ad Voice
Liberty Mutual customizes your car and home insurance. And now we're customizing this rush hour ad to keep you calm, which could help your driving. And science says therapy is great for a healthy mindset. So enjoy this 14 second session on us. I think you've done everything right and absolutely nothing wrong. In fact, anything that hasn't gone your way could probably be blamed on your father not being emotionally available because his father wasn't emotionally available, and so on. And now that you're calm and healing, you're probably driving better too.
- [00:33]
Tim Peake
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- [00:35]
Maggie Adairen
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- [01:02]
Tim Peake
Welcome to 13 Minutes presents Artemis 2 from the BBC World Service. I'm astronaut Tim Peake and this is episode 11, approaching flight day nine.
- [01:13]
Maggie Adairen
And I'm space scientist Maggie Adairen. We're following the progress of the first cruise mission around the moon in more than 50 years with a new episode every day,
- [01:25]
Flywheel Team Member
the Flywheel Team. This is a great device. We really enjoyed it in this small cabin. It's perfect. And it gave us a lot of good opportunity to get our heart rate up and also get some great resistance exercise. So we just wanted to shout out a nice thank you. Here we go. Thank you, guys. Thanks for the words and the cheers.
- [01:49]
Tim Peake
Well, that was the Artemis 2 crew completing their final sessions in Integrity's gymnasium and showing their appreciation for the engineers behind the Flywheel exercise machine. I'm not sure I've ever got off the rowing machine and cheered to the manufacturers, but they're obviously very happy. And of course, that is a huge piece of engineering there. And we'll talk a bit more about that in detail. But first we're joined by space journalist Kristen Fisher. Hello, Kristin.
- [02:15]
Kristen Fisher
Hi, Tim. Hi, Maggie. Gosh, can you. Can you believe it? We're almost at the end of this mission. The Flywheel's working great. They're cheering their exercises, and now we're just, you know, really hours away from one of the most exciting but also dangerous moments of this mission, reentry into the Earth's atmosphere. But I got to tell you, Maggie and Tim, one of my favorite moments of the last 24 hours was the crew press conference taking questions from a bunch of different reporters from all over the world, including the BBC's very own Becky Morrell, which was. I stayed up late and it was such a treat to get to hear her get the very Last question in it was fantastic.
- [02:59]
Tim Peake
Yes. And Christina answering about the camaraderie being all so important. Important, which of course it is. I think what's interesting actually is that although we're nearing splashdown day, that they're still closer to the moon than they are to Earth right now. And all that speed happens in the final stages. That final day is where the spacecraft is falling back to Earth and as it falls back to Earth in the latter stages, it really speeds up. So they're doing about 2,600 miles per hour right now and they're going to be doing 25,000 miles an hour by the time they come home.
- [03:34]
Maggie Adairen
But I guess they're really focused on actually getting ready for re entry and getting, I suppose, the mindset and the cabin and everything else ready for that moment. And of course I thought we're traveling with them. I think one of the things they were going to test because they're still testing the systems in Orion, was the radiation shelter, but that was cancelled in the end because I think the cabin that they need to climb into is quite deep and they've got in the stowage area, they've got lots of things around. So they put that to one side to focus on the re entry and
- [04:06]
Kristen Fisher
then the other thing, you know, as the crew prepares for reentry, you know, the science team on the ground is still sifting through all of the data that the crew collected during that, you know, roughly seven hour flyby around the moon. And it turns out there was a record breaking amount of data that was sent down via the optical communication system. And what that is, it's essentially like a laser firing digital data, kind of like a fiber optic cable, but without the glass fiber. And for everybody that, you know, was so frustrated by the lack of high quality from the Apollo era and wants more. In the Artemis era, they even managed to establish a 4K video feed. So the quality of the images, I think is just so important for getting more people excited about space exploration. And I think this mission has been so far wildly successful at doing that.
- [05:02]
Tim Peake
I completely agree, Chris, and I think the best is yet to come as well. As you mentioned, this optical communication system, it sent down hundreds of gigabytes, but they've been taking thousands and thousands of photographs, so it'll take a while to sift through them all. But just go back to this incredible feat of engineering, this flywheel device, because we've been watching the crew inside that tiny Orion spacecraft, the minivan size, using it, and it's got to do Two things really. It's got to give them the cardiovascular exercise. It's got to get the heart rate up. They've, they've got to exercise, exercise the heart as a muscle, but they've also got to exercise the other, other muscles. And some of the most important muscles are leg muscles because you want to maintain your strength and fitness in order to return back to the punishment of Earth's gravity. We've seen them being able to do squat thrusts using this flywheel by resting that bar on the upper part of their thighs. And then using that resistance training, they've done bicep curls, they can do sort of shoulder press. So it really is quite an incredible feat of engineering. So I do appreciate the reason were cheering on the engineers then.
- [06:07]
Maggie Adairen
So you'd be whooping too if you were there.
- [06:10]
Kristen Fisher
I wonder if they'll ever make an Earth model. Right, Like a model that you could use in your small apartment.
- [06:17]
Tim Peake
Absolutely. Your, your camping flywheel.
- [06:20]
Kristen Fisher
A camping flywheel. I love it.
- [06:22]
Tim Peake
Yes.
- [06:23]
Maggie Adairen
I want one for my camper van now.
- [06:26]
Kristen Fisher
And the ad really just writes itself, right. I mean, used by the Artemis astronauts in space. I mean, come on guys, I think we're onto something here.
- [06:36]
Tim Peake
They're gonna fly off the shelf. Do you get that? Oh, dear me, it's. Yeah, he's here all week, folks. Moving on, moving on, moving quickly on. But interestingly, what, what we have learned over the years on the International Space Station is that high intensity training is very, very useful. Crew time is very important. So you want to spend as little time exercising as possible, really for the maximum benefit. And also by high intensity training, it's that bone muscle ligament reaction, that's what creates the body's response to bone density growth. So in order to promote that, that bone growth, it's that muscle ligament bone reaction that you're trying to get. So we actually try and crank the resistance training up as high as possible and go for really, really high weights to get the high intensity training. But of course it does come with a risk of injury as well. So you have to balance that out. You don't want to, you know, really injure yourself on a long duration spaceflight.
- [07:35]
Maggie Adairen
Actually I've got a severed Achilles tendon at the moment. So I'm sitting here with a cast. I'm taking notes. As you know, I've got a great big leg castor ruptured my Achilles tendon and so and I'm going through rehabilitation. And so actually when they're exercising on Orion, I'm exercising on my bike here
- [07:53]
Tim Peake
on A flight exercising in sympathy with the crew. Well, I hope you have a quick recovery on that one, Maggie.
- [07:58]
Maggie Adairen
Yeah, thanks, Tim. It is getting better.
- [08:06]
Kristen Fisher
We have an incredible guest for you, NASA's lead science officer for Artemis. You've probably seen her all over your social media feeds. She's been in all the memes of the science team. CHEERING this is going to be a real treat, a guest that I'm very excited about. But before we get to to that, we just want to take a moment to take a couple Questions from the 13min inbox. That's 13minbc.co.uk and thank you so much for all of the kind comments and for some of the tricky questions that you guys have been sending in. It's really been keeping us on our toes.
- [08:41]
Maggie Adairen
First question, Craig writes. Hi. Love listening to the podcast every day, but today I thought of a question. Today you mentioned the return correction band and I was thinking that in order to decide to do the burn, they have to know where their spacecraft actually is in relation to where it should be. How do they know that? What is used for positioning that far into space? I assume that GPS is aimed at Earth and wouldn't work outside the atmosphere. Are you able to clarify that, please? Thank you and keep up the great work. Thanks, Craig.
- [09:15]
Tim Peake
Well, that's a great question from Craig and you're right that the GPS won't be tracking the spacecraft until it actually comes forward, far closer to Earth and inside that kind of GPS boundary. So what they're using primarily is the Deep Space Network, this communication system we've been talking about, where you have one radio antenna in California, one in Australia, one in Spain, and also other satellites in space and other places like goon Hilly in the uk, that's helping out with that spacecraft tracking system. So that's how they know where is Orion at the moment. And then as it gets closer to the Earth. Yes, you can then start using the same systems which the International Space Station uses, which is a mixture GPS and the tracking and data relay satellites. And also, of course, Orion knows where it is as well. It's got systems on board, inertial measurement units, these like gyros and accelerometers that make sure the computers will always know its position and velocity and its attitude. They've got star trackers and these are cameras that are taking pictures of the star field and then they can compare that star field to an onboard catalog of stars to determine exactly which way the spacecraft's pointing. And they've also got an optical navigation system and this system is using a digital camera to take images of the Earth and the moon and then computing the Orion's range and bearing based on the size and position. And then the Flight Dynamics officer is the person in mission Control who's got the really important job of working out where is Orion and is it where we expect it to be?
- [10:45]
Kristen Fisher
Tim, do you know if AI has changed how NASA tracks the Artemis 2 crew or has it been pretty consistent, you know, since, since the days when AI really exploded onto the scene?
- [10:59]
Tim Peake
Yeah, that's a really good question. I'm not sure if it's using AI or if it's just using better algorithms that we have better processing power. I guess, you know, AI comes into its own when you're managing vast amount of data. So for something like the star field that is somewhere that AI could be quite useful actually in perhaps giving us better attitude and position systems based on being able to analyze that complex starfield. Good question.
- [11:29]
Kristen Fisher
Okay, sorry, I just had to slip in my own question there. All right, next up is from Ilya in Reno, Nevada. Ilya writes, I've noticed that most of the crew are wearing reading glasses. What happens when they lose or break them? Do they have spares or other options to see things close up? Cheers. Well, we know they've got those incredible lenses on cameras. They could always use those. But I, I think the answer is, you know, NASA's always got their contingency plans. They've got redundancy upon redundancy. I'm willing to wager each astronaut has a few pairs of those up there.
- [12:09]
Dr. Kelsey Young
Right.
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Maggie Adairen
I'm pretty convinced as well because without glasses you're pretty stuck. So. But Tim, have you had experience of this?
- [12:18]
Tim Peake
I've got a huge experience of losing my glasses every day. So I do hope that they've got redundancy, especially in microgravity. You know, they're just going to float off. They'll probably find six pairs behind all the stowage bags when they get back. But yeah, it's interesting because glasses are important and you know, astronauts tend to be nowadays towards the plus 40, plus 50 year old. And your eyesight does deteriorate at that point. And when we were on the space station, I was getting Scott Kelly ready for a spacewalk. This was just days after we arrived and he wore glasses outside and they had to be taped in place and it was really nerve wracking because it's really important to get the glasses in place also so they don't fall off. You know, you imagine a set of glasses Falling off your nose when you're on the middle of a spacewalk, that's it, you're not going to get them back on again. So it's, it might sound like the trivial thing, but again, it needs to be carefully thought out.
- [13:11]
Kristen Fisher
I mean, what's the technique for that? Are you taping on the bridge of the nose, the side of the face? What kind of tape? I need details here.
- [13:17]
Tim Peake
Yeah, so it was zinc oxide tape and just used it on the side of the face. So where the glass arms kind of came towards the ears, we would just tape there and just, you know, put about two or three strips so you had some redundancy. But it wasn't in case Scott started sweating a bit. So, you know, it wasn't going to kind of come loose.
- [13:37]
Kristen Fisher
Oh, that is nerve wracking.
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Maggie Adairen
It's the things you don't think of, like, like, yeah, space walk glasses. You just. It's these challenges that space presents, I guess.
- [13:49]
Tim Peake
Thank you very much for that question, Ilya. That was great. And Maggie, I think possibly one for you here. Hi. Right, all, thanks folks for your great work on the 30 minutes podcast and your coverage of Artemis 2. I have a question for the team. Artemis 2 is described as the first time humans have viewed a solar eclipse from space. Apollo missions often saw the sun completely occluded by the moon when flying through the moon's night side. So what makes this an eclipse and not just Orion flying through the moon's night? Regardless that the altitude above the Moon is much greater. Much appreciated from Nicholas. I think that's a great question. Maggie, over to you.
- [14:27]
Maggie Adairen
It is, yeah. So the solar eclipse occurs when the moon passes directly between effectively the observer and the sun. And so it casts a shadow on the observer and so it will fully or partially block out the Sun's light. And so I was looking up and doing some research and I think technically, no, Artemis crew are not the first humans to view a solo clip from space. NASA history says that the Gemini 12 astronauts, Jim Lovell and Buzz Aldrin photographed a solar eclipse from the Earth's orbit on 12 November 1966. And so I think they did see this. Now I've seen the picture and it isn't half as glorious. I mean, that's. And I think it's very much about perspective because what's new about the Artemis crew mission is the vantage point. Because what they did is they were, they saw the sort of the back side of the Moon and partly sort of illuminated by Earth shine. So light coming from the sun reflecting off Earth and hitting the moon and then seeing the sun that way. So it was a very, very unique perspect, but possibly not the first solar eclipse seen from space.
- [15:34]
Tim Peake
Yeah, it was an amazing photograph, wasn't it? And I think because, because of their altitude, they're. They're so far away from the moon, they got to see that whole corona around the whole of the moon. Whereas rather than just, okay, we're now into the night side and we've got, you know, 45 minutes of complete darkness before a sunrise. But that's a great question. Yeah, that made me think, too.
- [15:58]
Maggie Adairen
Yeah, I had to get my head around the mechanics and the viewpoints and things, but, yeah, glorious.
- [16:03]
Kristen Fisher
Well, you know, we spend so much time on this podcast talking about the rocket science and the engineering and the technical challenges that the Artemis II mission has had to overcome. But one of the biggest bright spots of this whole mission has been the science. And, you know, we also spend so much time talking about the astronauts. They're usually the stars of the show. And of course, of course, the Artemis 2 crew is. But I think it's safe to say with this mission, a new star has been born. And we are so lucky to have her. With us Joining us right now, Dr. Kelsey Young. She is the lead science officer and the lunar science lead, and she is the person who was speaking directly to the crew as they made their observations of the moon's surface during the flyby. So, Kelsey, it is an honor. Welcome to 13 Minutes.
- [16:54]
Dr. Kelsey Young
Thank you so much for having me. I'm a massive fan of the effort that you guys have put in here, and I'm so excited to talk about the moon Today.
- [17:10]
Liberty Mutual Ad Voice
Liberty Mutual customizes your car and home insurance. And now we're customizing this rush hour ad to keep you calm, which could help your driving. And science says therapy is great for a healthy mindset. So enjoy this 14 second session on us. I think you've done everything right and absolutely nothing wrong. In fact, anything that hasn't gone your way could probably be blamed on your father not being emotionally available because his father wasn't emotionally available and so on. And now that you're calm and healing, you're probably driving better, too.
- [17:37]
Tim Peake
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- [17:40]
Dr. Kelsey Young
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- [17:59]
Kristen Fisher
We are so excited to Talk to you. And before we get into the science, though, I gotta ask you about the feels. Because, Kelsey, it has been one of the great joys of this mission to watch you and your face get so excited as these astronauts are making their closest just pass by the moon. I'm just dying to know. So much time, effort, and planning has gone into that moment for you. What was it like to see it and to see it be so successful?
- [18:25]
Dr. Kelsey Young
Yeah, first of all, I feel like my whole life, I've always been told I have a very expressive face. Like, anybody can read what I'm feeling on my face. Happy, sad, mad, all the things. So not super shocked. Watching back some of those stills from during the flyby. I mean, honestly, I felt like I was just watching, like, with all of you guys, I mean, I was just watching four incredible people do what they were trained to do, which is make really compelling scientific observations in the moment and also just kind of like reflecting back on it. One of my absolute favorite comments that we heard from them real time was when Christina and Victor both came on, you know, the loops and said, hey, we're really glad you put these discussion blocks in our targeting plan, because we started building off of each other, and we were actually able to advance what each other were seeing because of how we were talking to each other as scientists. And that's exactly what we wanted. And that's exactly what for future missions that have longer periods of time where they're able to spend either on or around the moon. So the fact that they elevated each other scientifically like that just has stuck with me the last couple days.
- [19:36]
Tim Peake
It really has been brilliant to see Kelsey, and it's been amazing to see that relationship between you and the science team and the crew on board and how professionally you've been working. And just to kind of listen to those comments, I wanted to ask if you've been surprised by anything about their immediate observations. I know you're going to get a huge debrief from the crew, but in particular, I noticed how much joy there was jumping up and down when the impact flashes were seen after the solar eclipse. And also, what is an impact flash?
- [20:07]
Flywheel Team Member
Yeah, there was a little bit of giddiness. We have seen three impact flashes so far. I saw two, and Jeremy has seen one. Undoubtedly, Jeremy saw two. So that's four total. Undoubtedly quick impact flashes, not sun glint off a particulate from the thrusters or the purge tanks. It was definitely impact flashes on the moon. And Jeremy just saw another one. Go ahead with your next question.
- [20:34]
Dr. Kelsey Young
Amazing news. I literally just looked over at the sur and they were jumping up and down, literally. Impact flashes are when micrometeoroids strike the surface and it creates like literally a little flash, like a little lip. Going into the mission, it was one of our highest priority science objectives. We have 10 lunar science objectives for the mission. And that was we had two of those. Ten were bookkept as like the highest priority. And impact flashes was one of them. They're really dynamic processes. And having, you know, the crew observing the far side, which is obviously not a side that people who look for impact flashes here on Earth can see. That's extra data that we were really eager to capitalize on. Having astronauts near the moon to be able to help us answer and constrain. If I could be honest with you guys, I did not think we would see one. I mean the odds, what are the odds? And so of course we train them on it extensively. It's really high priority objective. We spent a lot of time talking about it as a science team. Did I really in my heart of hearts think that we would maybe not. And so probably that's what you saw in my reaction was like, oh my gosh, like this is one of our top two highest priority things. The odds were so long and they saw more than one. It's amazing.
- [21:49]
Maggie Adairen
It has been a joy to watch. One of the things that the crew mentioned is that they had to adjust their cameras because what they were seeing with their eyes didn't reflect what they were getting back through the cameras. As a space scientist, I sort of make cameras that go out into space, but it really just show the power of the human eye. And so what can we learn from the human eye that photographs can't tell us?
- [22:09]
Dr. Kelsey Young
I think you maybe just answered your own question while you were asking. You know, when they're describing things with their human eyes, I mean this is why we send people. And I just absolutely like adore that. You know, we, we knew that going into the mission, we trained them on that and we saw it throughout the entirety of that seven hour flyby. I mean the comment you just referenced is just. But one example. I know they had a really hard time, which is not super surprising during the eclipse period when they were seeing that beautiful earth shine where Victor I think said this is like sci fi.
- [22:41]
Flywheel Team Member
This is, we just went sci fi. This has, it just looks unreal.
- [22:47]
Tim Peake
One of the best comments of the mission so far.
- [22:49]
Dr. Kelsey Young
I know, and I think I knew what he meant. And then I saw the pictures and was like, oh yes, I get it now, but they had a really hard time capturing, like, the nuance that they were seeing. Right. Like, those images are spectacular, and I'm sure they do a pretty good job, and I'm eager to talk to them about that when they get back. But it's nuance, right? And it's also the ability of a human being to make their own choices about what and how they're observing. I mean, this is the benefit of sending astronauts over robotic assets. Robotic assets are amazing, and they absolutely have their place in planetary science. But in terms of science return, it's nuance and it's the ability of these amazing crew members to use their training to execute a science plan they're not following. For surface astronauts, we train them. You're not following a red line on a. On a map. You're not just following the traverse path as written. You are empowered to make your own observations and your own choices. And we saw that for seven hours on Monday.
- [23:48]
Kristen Fisher
Kelsey, let's talk about those images because, I mean, I think I'm still processing them. They were absolutely stunning. The eclipse sci fi. I feel like I was looking into another dimension Earth set. But let's talk about the science behind them. What is the scientific value behind these photos?
- [24:10]
Dr. Kelsey Young
You know, I think you started with the most, like, obviously, like, visually impactful images. Right. Some of my favorites, honestly, were outside of fly by day, when you see either the moon or the Earth out the window from inside of Orion, so you see like, spacecraft window, planetary body, and so obviously those, like, touch us. Right. Just emotionally as people, there's a lot of science obviously, contained within that. That first image that they put out around the time of the TLI burn that had Earth and then the zodiacal light plume coming out from the bottom of Earth and then had the aurora at the poles and that, like, really thin line of the atmosphere. It's visually stunning. And then the second you start to, like, okay, now wait, what am I? What am I seeing?
- [24:55]
Kristen Fisher
What?
- [24:56]
Dr. Kelsey Young
And you can actually, like, really, in that one picture, like, dive into everything you've learned about Earth science and how Earth exists in the solar system is in one image, you start with the inspiration. And then when you really start to, like, literally and figuratively zoom in, all of those observations start to pop out. Same thing here. So, like, for those eclipse images, the first thing is, like, I'm a human being looking at those images, and I try not to absolutely lose my mind. But then the second thing is you start to, like, really zoom in. Yesterday there was was a massive debate A science debate. Absolutely. Classic. I love it. I love to hear it. About those early eclipse images and how much of what we were seeing was corona versus zodiacal light. Keep in mind we haven't gotten all the images down yet, but that one image, there was some feisty scientific debate, which is why I love the science community so much.
- [25:41]
Tim Peake
Absolutely. I mean, I can't even believe some people are even questioning whether these are just artistic photos. I mean, there's just so much science to be gained from what we're seeing. And what also struck me, I mean, there were so many things, but during that flyby period, the pace of work, the cadence, the tag teaming, two on, two of. I mean, you had it so well planned. It was unbelievable. But what was it really impressive was the words being used by the crew. You know, who knew a Navy test pilot could be so eloquent? I've heard Victor say things that I've never heard him say before, but it was brilliant. And, you know, talking about the albedo, the texture, the structure, there's obviously a lot of training that went in to get the crew to that standard.
- [26:19]
Dr. Kelsey Young
I don't even know what to say. Like, I'm just like, I am just so happy and proud of them. Like, I. It is. They were doing science, you guys, they were not just, like, paying lip service and. And just like, describing what they were seeing out the window. Like, we have trained them over many months and months and months to. When you say these words, here is what it means to the lunar science team. When they started, it was clear they felt awkward, right? They were like this. I mean, I just feel like I'm just somebody on a hiking trip that's just describing what I'm seeing around me. And we're like, like, hold on, slow down. Give a description. And then they'd give one and we'd say, hey. When you said these words, the person who is in the science evaluation room thinking about volcanic structures, she just learned that because of what you said. And you could see the light bulbs start to click on. Once we, like, really started to parse things individually like that. I mean, they. They were honest with us. Right? Like, at the beginning of the training process, they were like, I don't get it. Like, we don't get why this is valuable. And by the end of it, it was a challenge they were excited to undertake. And we really wanted to get across to them that they are not a crew supported by the science team. They are part of the science team. And what they are doing is actively doing science they're exploring. We made it very clear that this is a guide. We have the targeting plan. It's a guide. But you are the scientists doing the in situ exploration, and we don't. We can't tell you exactly what you're going to see, and that's okay. And you should be telling us, us, as the in situ explorer, what you're experiencing. And the training paid off. It really did.
- [27:47]
Tim Peake
Absolutely.
- [27:48]
Maggie Adairen
I also heard that a part of their training involved a sandbox, some pebbles, and a torch. It sounds like the sort of thing you might be able to set up at home. So can you tell us a bit more about that?
- [27:58]
Dr. Kelsey Young
Yeah, it's absolutely something to set up at home. We were in a classroom at the Johnson Space center, actually, if I could be totally honest. We started the lesson in a classroom and we took them into a kitchen because that is where there were no windows and we could really turn a false light. So we walked him out down the hall and took them to one of the break rooms. And we literally had just like, a large bin, like, you know, about the size of just like kind of a large Tupperware you'd put leftovers in. And we filled it with sand and gravel. And anyone who's been to a beach knows that, you know, sand is not perfectly flat. Right. There's ridges, there's topography. There's some particles that are larger than others, just like the lunar circus, of course. And so we took them into this dark break room, closed the door, put the bin on the table, turned off the lights, and put illumination down on the top of the bin and asked them to describe what you see. And they said, wow, I see different colors. I see brights and darks. I see different shades of tan. We said, great. And then we moved the flashlight 90 degrees, basically, so it's shining fully obliquely on the surface. Describe what you see. And it's all topography. It's all morphology. It's all what the surface physically looks like. And we said, great. And when you gave that description, we didn't hear you say anything about color, like literal light bulb. Moment of changing illumination source truly matters. And of course, we made the point then, sitting in that dark break room, that that flashlight for this exercise was the sun. We can't move the sun. During your mission, you are the ones that are going to move. And so you are going to be able to capitalize on those different illumination conditions because you're the one moving relative to the sun and literal and figurative light bulb.
- [29:34]
Kristen Fisher
Kelsey, listening to you talk, it's so obvious why NASA needed a science officer for this mission, but this is the first time that there's ever been a role like this at NASA. Why the change?
- [29:48]
Maggie Adairen
Why?
- [29:48]
Kristen Fisher
Why did this finally happen now for Artemis ii? And is this the new norm? Can we expect this going forward? Somebody like you, a lead science officer for Artemis III IV and beyond.
- [30:00]
Dr. Kelsey Young
Oh, gosh, you've given me an opportunity to talk about my, like, life's fashion. The other hat I wear that's outside of the Artemis II mission itself is I am NASA's Science Flight Operations lead across Artemis. So it's my job to basically figure out and then implement how to integrate science into this next phase of human exploration. And so I've held that role now for six or seven years. And so this was the vision from the very beginning, you know, creating a flight controller position that was staffed by lunar scientists and geologists who really understand the meat of the science and training them in flight control to integrate with the rest of the flight control team to make sure that science is woven into the fabric of operations and is not a risk or a distraction coming at the flight control team from the outside. So it started from there, and I worked really hard, first within the eva, the sort of spacewalk team within the Flight operations Directorate here at jsc, as we started to scope surface missions, and then ultimately for Artemis II to build a flight controller position and really develop that trust, that relationship, to have the flight operations community understand that, you know, we're a part of the team. And I have seen. I mean, I could literally talk your ears off for hours and hours. Please don't give me the opportunity, because I will take it. About ways that I saw that come to fruition, both in mission planning and over the last week, that trust, that relationship has just paid off so, so well. And I am really grateful for the flight operations community for their willingness to try something new, because that's what this was. This was absolutely trying something new. The other piece of this was the science evaluation room, the back room, Right. So we needed to develop the room, the facility, and the team that would support the science officer. And so I was fortunate enough to, you know, work with the mission control team as the, like, lead designer for the science evaluation room. And we really were able to develop a facility, a flight control room that met the science community's needs that didn't fit this traditional mold of the flight control room elsewhere in the building that I'm sitting in right now. And again, grateful that the mission control team was like, yeah, let's do it. Let's lean into the challenge. This is weird. I'm into it. Let's try to bring your vision to reality. And we did, and it's 50ft away from me right now, full of scientists.
- [32:21]
Maggie Adairen
You took the crew out to Iceland as an analogy to the moon. Are there similarities and sort of. What sort of things did you do out there?
- [32:29]
Dr. Kelsey Young
We took the whole crew, 4 Prime and 2 backup crew, to the Icelandic Highlands in the summer of 2024. We went to the exact site, the exact campsite where Apollo astronauts trained as well. In fact, we brought along pictures of the Apollo astronauts at the exact same outcrops that we took the Artemis 2 astronauts to. They got a lot out of that, I think. And the Apollo astronauts, when they came back, several of them actually said of all the training locations they went to in the field of which there were many, Iceland felt the most lunar. Like the terrain, the scale of the major geologic features that we were having them observe. The volcanic landscape as sort of a regolith analog for the lunar surface. It just evokes moon, it gives moon. And so there's a lot of value in that, but it's also just the processes. Many of the processes, of course, not all. There's no perfect analog on Earth for the lunar surface, of course, but many of the geologic processes that formed that landscape that we were in, in the field are processes that they were observing from orbit, right? So actually having them see it from the ground, say, okay, when I make those observations from, you know, during the flyby, I. I understand about the process and, and what it might look like down there. We also just, again, our job is to build their toolkit, right? Our job is to give them the skills they need to meet whatever science mission is given to them. And so we're just building their ability to look at a landscape and succinctly describe it and use the words that ultimately have science value. And then a side benefit actually of the trip, in addition to just training for them, is we hope to take future assigned crews there as well. And they were helping us, you know, with the lens of. These are extremely experienced astronauts in the Artemis era who are really familiar with the Artemis architecture to give feedback on when we have future crews there, to really make sure that when we're executing this with the next time we have assigned crew, we are getting the most bang for the buck for those future astronauts.
- [34:24]
Kristen Fisher
The images that are being sent back from the Artemis II crew, they are so high quality, so crisp, so sci fi, as Victor Glover was saying. That they almost don't look real. And so in this era of AI, I'm sure you've been getting this as well. But when I post and share these pictures, half of my comments are, that's not real, that's fake. That's AI, that's cgi. And I find myself getting so defensive and I can only imagine how you must feel. So how do you feel? How do you handle that? And what do you have to say to the people who say that this is all fake and that these images are AI?
- [35:04]
Dr. Kelsey Young
Yes, it certainly is a new generation in more ways than one, isn't it? First and foremost, I will say it outright. None of the images that are released have been doctored in any way. We take the files, we downlink them, and we do assign NASA image numbers, right, to give the file a name. And then that is what you see when they go out to the public. It is our responsibility to get all of the lunar science relevant imagery and other data out to the public no later than six months post mission. We hope to be a little bit faster than that, but the public will have access to these images and we really hope that the science community takes that data set and is able to maximize the science return of this mission for months and years to come. And so I'm looking forward to when we're able to release, you know, even more of these thousands of images that right now as I sit here, we're still downlinking and the community will see for themselves. You know, these are the real images that the crew took with these amazing cameras, these amazing Nikon D5 and Z9 cameras. And we'll get them all out for you to look at, analyze and be
- [36:05]
Tim Peake
inspired by Brilliant and Kelsey, Just looking ahead, everything goes according to plan. Artemis 4 will be the return to the moon and the surface of the moon landing at the South Pole. How exciting is that going to be? But also from a science point of view, how will your role change? Will it change? And what kind of things will you be looking for on Artemis 4 moving forward?
- [36:25]
Dr. Kelsey Young
Each mission will have their own sort of project scientists. And so I'll move, I'll transition out of that role after, of course, we get everything documented from this mission mission, but I will keep the role as operations lead. I hope you're not sick of me as you will continue to see my face in operations on future missions. But absolutely, when we get on the surface, sample collection is a big one that people go to first. But let's also not forget the human observations. And so what we saw from the flyby was the benefit was the payoff of getting human eyes, of getting these amazing astronauts who have been thinking and breathing, you know, lunar science for years, years to actually be in situ and be what they were trained to be, which is explorers. And so I'm just excited to again, like, even if they landed there with nothing but their spacesuit, which they will not do, they would still return. Impactful science. And I cannot wait.
- [37:14]
Tim Peake
We can't wait either. Kelsey, thank you so much for giving up some of your precious time to speak to us. It's been absolutely fascinating and we are really looking forward to following the rest of the mission and looking ahead. Excited about what's to come in the future too. Thank you so much.
- [37:28]
Dr. Kelsey Young
If I could be honest, this was an extremely fun conversation. So I just want to say thank you for giving me the opportunity to talk about this and I wish that Your podcast was 10 hours long so we can just keep going all day. So thank you for having me and I'd love to come back at some point if you want to keep talking lunar science.
- [37:45]
Maggie Adairen
We'd love that.
- [37:45]
Tim Peake
Thanks, Kelsey.
- [37:46]
Kristen Fisher
Yeah, thank you, Kelsey.
- [37:48]
Dr. Kelsey Young
Thank you guys. Really appreciate you.
- [37:52]
Maggie Adairen
And thank you as ever, Kristen, for joining us and see you tomorrow.
- [37:55]
Kristen Fisher
Oh, thanks, Maggie. Thanks, Tim. It's been a pleasure. And get ready. Buckle up. Re entry day tomorrow.
- [38:01]
Dr. Kelsey Young
I'm so excited.
- [38:03]
Tim Peake
A reminder, we're doing an episode every day for this mission, so do follow or subscribe to 13min so that you never miss an episode. But that's it for today. So goodbye from me, Tim Peaker and me, Maggie Adairin.
- [38:16]
Maggie Adairen
The producers are Alex Mansfield and Sophie Ormiston and the series editor is Martin Smith.
- [38:22]
Tim Peake
And our thanks to Hans Zimmer and Christian Lundberg at Bleeding Fingers. Music for our theme music 13 minutes
- [38:29]
Maggie Adairen
presents Artemis 2 is a BBC audio science production for the BBC World Service.
- [38:47]
Tim Peake
After we recorded today's episode, BBC science editor Rebecca Morell sent us another postcard from Houston, where she's been experiencing a bit of time inside a cramped space caravan. Here it is.
- [39:03]
Rebecca Morrell
Hi, Tim, Maggie and Kristin, Sorry I can't be with you today. Now, last time I was tempted away by a trip to Mission Control. Today I've been given the chance to come into Building 9, which, you know, I couldn't turn down. So this is the building where NASA keeps all of the models of its space hardware. There's a replica of the International Space Station, which, Tim, you must have trained in when you were getting ready for your journey to space. I can see the blue Origin lander here too, which is pretty exciting. I've not seen a replica of that before. But next to it is the Orion capsule. And this is what the astronauts trained on to get them ready for their mission to the moon and back. There's a little viewing window where you can take a peek inside. And it is tiny in there. It is so cramped, weird. The cameras they're using while they're in space make the whole thing look bigger. And actually, Christina Cook said yesterday that when they're floating about, there is a bit more room. But honestly, it's difficult to describe just how cramped in the four of them must be. And remember, they are living, eating, working and sleeping inside of this capsule. Now, throughout the mission, this model of the capsule has been configured to match the layout of the capsule while it's been in space. And right now the seats are down, ready for the RE entry. This has been so that the team here can troubleshoot any issues as problems have come along. But the astronauts are going to be in for quite a ride. They are going to be speeding through the Earth's atmosphere at 25,000 miles per hour. The spacecraft will experience temperatures of 2,700 degrees Celsius. That is half as hot the surface of the sun. Now, this spacecraft has kept the crew safe for their entire mission, but now it really has to do the job to bring them home. And the bit that's really important, of course, is the heat shield. I can just crouch down here and have a look at the model. This is basically the barrier between the, the astronauts inside their spacecraft and the scorching temperatures that are outside. On the Artemis I mission, which, remember, had no astronauts on board, the heat shield came back badly charred and damaged. And we've been speaking to members of the Orion team who say they've not changed the heat shield for the Artemis II mission, but they've changed the angle of the RE entry. So they say that they're confident that that problem won't happen again and they will get the astronauts home safely. So it's a really busy day here in Houston. I mean, the astronauts, it's their last full day in space and then really they're getting ready for those final preparations. We actually had a chance to speak to them last night for their first press conference since their lunar flyby. And I was lucky enough to be able to ask a question of the crew. The thing I asked them was what will they misspell most about their time in space and what won't they miss at all? Christina Cook, answered. And she said the thing that she will miss the most and you could see all of the astronauts nodding alongside her was the camaraderie. You know, these four have forged such a unique bond and you've really been able to see this throughout the entire mission. And they've said that will of course continue when they come back. Now the thing they won't miss at all. I think if I'm being honest, I was really hoping she'd talk about the toilets because as you know, I'm obsessed with the temperamental toilets, the universal waste management system. She didn't say the toilet. She actually said that there wasn't really anything she'd like to see the, the back of because she said the whole thing was a package and the crew couldn't explore deeper unless they were doing a few things that were inconvenient, convenience and making a few sacrifices and being a bit uncomfortable. I mean as, as I've seen here today, you know, and it does look like they have been packed in like sardines. So she thought all of that was worth it for their mission to space. But it was very interesting hearing for them. Victor said that he was ready for splashdown and in fact when we spoke to him a few months ago back in September last year, he said, when we said, you know, what are you most looking forward to? I was expecting him to see close up images of the moon, etc. But he said splashdown because he does acknowledge the risk of this mission and this final part of the journey, this sort of, you know, he described it as a fireball hurtling through space. It's going to be a really perilous moment and you know, the crew want to come back. The team here at mission Control want them to come back, back safely and of course everyone else watching along wants that to happen too. So we'll be continuing to follow the team on a, on a busy day, but for now that's, that's it. Hopefully I'll be able to speak to you. Speak to you then. Goodbye from Building 9.
- [44:18]
Dr. Kelsey Young
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- [44:25]
Kristen Fisher
That's why she counts on Grainger to be her single source for thousands of products from disinfectants to lighting, air filters and more. And with fast, dependable delivery, Grainger helps
- [44:35]
Dr. Kelsey Young
her keep every facility stocked, safe and running smoothly. Call 1-800-GRAINGER clickgrainger.com or just stop by
- [44:42]
Kristen Fisher
Granger for the ones who get it
- [44:45]
Tim Peake
done at the BBC. We go further so you see clearer With a subscription to BBC.com and the BBC app you get unlimited articles and videos ad free podcasts, the BBC News channel streaming live 24. 7 plus hundreds of acclaimed documentaries from less than a dollar a week for your first year. Read, watch and listen to trusted independent journalism and storytelling. It all starts with a subscription to BBC.com and the BBC app. Find out more at BBC.com unlimited.