← 13 Minutes
13 Minutes
Artemis II: 6. Halfway there
00:36:15
Nasa’s Artemis II crew are more than halfway to the Moon
Loading summary
Transcript100 lines
- [00:00]
A
This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the uk.
- [00:06]
B
Ever invest in something that seemed incredible at first but didn't live up to the hype? Like those $5 roses at a gas station? Or a secondhand piece of technology that breaks in the first 10 minutes? Marketers know that feeling. We optimize for the numbers that look great, impressions reach and reacts. But when they don't show revenue, well, that's a not so great conversation with the CFO. LinkedIn has a word for bullspend. Now you can invest in what looks good to your CFO. LinkedIn Ads generates the highest roas of all major ad networks. You'll reach the right buyers because you can target by company, industry, job title and more. So cut the bull. Spend. Advertise on LinkedIn, the network that works for you. Spend $250 on your first campaign on LinkedIn ads and get a 250 credit for the next one. Just go to LinkedIn.com broadcast. That's LinkedIn.com broadcast. Terms and conditions apply.
- [01:10]
C
At Vrbo, we understand that even the best of plans sometimes need a little support. So we plan for the plot twists. Every booking is automatically backed by our VRBO Care guarantee, giving you confidence from the very start. Whenever you need help, it's ready before your stay, through the moments in between and after your trip. Because a great trip starts with peace of mind and maybe a good playlist. But we've got the peace of mind part covered.
- [01:43]
A
Welcome to 13 Minutes presents Artemis 2 from the BBC World Service. I'm astronaut Tim Peake and this is episode six, nearing flight day four.
- [01:54]
C
And I'm space scientist Maggie Adairin. We're following the progress of the first crewed mission around the moon in more than 50 years with a new episode every day.
- [02:05]
D
And Integrity, Houston, we have some news to share with you. As of 30 seconds ago, you are now closer to the moon than you are to us on Earth. Wow, Jackie, thank you for sharing that with us. We all kind of had a collective, I guess, expression of joy at that. It's hard to imagine, but we can see here on our flight PFD that we are at 118,000 nautical miles. So, yeah, you can do the math. We can see the moon out of the docking hatch right now. It is a beautiful sight. We're seeing more and more of the far side and it's just a thrill to be here.
- [02:47]
A
Integrity is now moving more than halfway to the moon. That was a wonderful moment there where Capcom shared that information with the crew. And we just Heard Christina telling us how reaching that milestone felt for all of them. I was watching that moment on NASA TV and it was just such a delight to see the joy on their faces. And of course, we're joined, as ever, by space journalist Kristin Fisher. And Kristin, this is a milestone, isn't it?
- [03:12]
E
It's such a milestone. And you know, in addition to getting the official call outs from the Capcom and Houston's mission control, that, yes, you all have now passed that halfway point, the crew can now see it. Right. They can see the moon getting bigger and bigger outside their window. I can't even put words to the emotions that they must be feeling on the technical side of things. One of the other big moments over the last few hours has been the possibility of the need for a correction burn. And this would have been an opportunity for Integrity to make any fine tuned adjustments to the trajectory to the moon if needed. But turns out it wasn't necessary because that initial translunar injection burn, the TLI that we've been talking about, the point of no return, the moment that they were sent to the moon with no turning back, it was so accurate, such pinpoint precision, that no correction burn was needed. So everything looking really good since the last time I saw it and spoke to you, Tim and Maggie.
- [04:20]
A
It was great to see. And you're right. I mean, what a, what a testament to that translunar ejection to be able to do that so accurately.
- [04:27]
D
All right, we wanted to let you know that we are stepping into our burn cancellation procedure here from the ground. We have attempted to suppress any expected caution and warnings associated with that. Just want to give you a heads up and then we'll let you know when we have a new active burn plan. Thank all the fidos. I can't believe that that actually all worked. And when I saw that OTC1 was like a 0.8 meter per second burn this morning on targeting, I thought we might skip it. And that is pretty impressive. All right, signing off.
- [04:57]
A
And last night also we received some beautiful images of the Earth taken by Commander Reid Wiseman. I've been waiting so long to see these images and it did not disappoint. It's called hello World. If anybody wants to go and look that up and just take a look at this image. It was taken by one of the Nikon D5 cameras on board and I guess when they sent it down, it's probably about a six megabyte file, but it's just amazing. The resolution and what you're seeing there is planet Earth in all of its beauty, but it's not being lit by the sun, the sun is actually behind the Earth. And so the Earth eclipses on, it's being lit by the almost full moon that's behind them. And you're seeing the Earth kind of upside down. You're seeing the Straits of Gibraltar on the left hand side, the Sahara Desert. You're seeing a little bit of the aurora at the north and south pole. And you're even seeing Venus in the bottom right hand corner. I mean, absolutely beautifully, I assume, Kristin, Maggie, you had a chance to see this too.
- [05:51]
C
Yeah, images like that, they just give me goosebumps also hearing that. Sorry. We're closer to the moon than we are from the Earth. It's just hearing it again, I just get shivers. It just these magical, iconic moments. And that image, because I fell in love with earthrise when that came out. But this and especially sort of being lit by moonlight, it's just sort of poetic almost.
- [06:12]
E
And also one of the other images that were recently released was taken by Commander Reid Wiseman of his crewmates inside the capsule, using a wide angle lens to capture Christina Cook on the left and Jeremy Hansen looking out the window on the right. And Christina's working on her laptop. And you know, I know that the crew doesn't like to talk too much about these firsts, but this is the first woman to ever reach this far into deep space. The first non American, the first Canadian. And so it's just, it's so neat to see how they are doing inside the capsule with all the interviews that they have been giving. But I mean, it's the, it's the, as you say, Maggie, it's the, it's the images of Earth that just hit you in the heart. Right.
- [06:58]
A
They seem to be getting on really well in that capsule actually in terms of managing the space that's available to them. I was watching the workout, so, you know, Victor was on the, on the flywheel and then Christina jumped on. Jeremy's getting ready for lunar observation tasks and they're all busy in there, but they seem to manage to find their own spaces. So it seems to be working out okay.
- [07:19]
E
Yeah. It must be nice when you can finally use all sides of Orion. Right. And not just the bottom like you do in a simulator on planet Earth. Right. It might feel a little bit more spacious when you can float on the ceiling and have another crew member floating off to this side.
- [07:37]
C
Yes. I guess living in three dimensions like that, Tim, you must have experienced it, but it must take on a Whole new perspective, literally.
- [07:45]
A
It's so much easier. It really is. It's amazing how you could just tuck yourself away into little nooks and crannies, but also you have to get used to there's no upside down in space. And there was a hilarious conversation between Reid and Jeremy and Capcom when Jeremy was getting ready to do these lunar observations. And it was kind of like, which way round is the moon out of our window? Can you just tell us, Houston, please, is it upside down or the right way up?
- [08:09]
E
Up.
- [08:09]
A
And then like, what I mean is, is that the north pole that I'm going to be seeing the right way up or. And you could tell orientation. A little bit of confusion about which, which way up are we and which way up is the moon and what am I looking at here?
- [08:23]
C
I spoke to an astronaut a few years ago and he said that when they come back down to Earth, they're a bit disoited because they put things in the air and let go and then they drop to Earth and they're what? Because of course, in space, in that microgravity environment, they just float and you can go recollect them later. But so I suppose getting acclimatized back to Earth must take a of going.
- [08:43]
A
It really does. Your brain kind of learns very easily, you know, what, what microgravity is like. And so it does take a while to adjust. I found myself, myself actually gripping onto everything really tightly. I had the opposite effect. Everything felt so heavy that I was just gripping onto these things, not wanting to drop them. But they'll have a great time re acclimatizing after this mission, I'm sure.
- [09:04]
E
Tim, did you ever have the issue where you just went to, you know, put something down on a table over here and you just dropped it? You forgot that, you know, gravity would do its work on Earth after returning from space.
- [09:17]
A
I did once or twice with some small objects. But in space, you're paranoid about losing things. I did that a couple of times in the early days as a rookie astronaut, you let go of things, you turn around, you turn back, and you expect it to be there. On Earth, it's really handy when you can just put things on a table and it's not going to move around because in space you turn around and after just two seconds, it's gone, You've lost it. It's flo. Everything is moving everywhere all the time. So Velcro becomes your best friend in space.
- [09:47]
E
One of the other nice moments over the last few hours has been the crew finally getting a chance to talk to their family members and make those very first calls since launch. And, you know, the last time they saw their, saw their family members was the big wave goodbye after they were walking out of crew quarters. All that emotion, all those nerves, all that anxiety, all that relief they haven't been able to express to one another. And so finally getting a chance to speak to their family members last night, that must have been a huge moment for them. I know I would have breathed a huge sigh of relief at that moment
- [10:24]
F
if I'd been able to talk to
- [10:25]
E
my mom or dad after a lunch like that. And Tim, I bet for you, those sacred moments that you get to speak to your family when they're so far away from you, what's it like?
- [10:36]
A
Oh, it's so special. It's such a morale boost and it's so important to make those connections back to friends and family back on planet Earth. So they would have loved that. Their families would have loved that. And yesterday, as well as talking to their family, the crew did a demonstration of cpr, cardiopulmonary resuscitation, which is clearly really important in case anybody does have a medical issue on this mission, but also to learn more for the future as we send more people into space. And doing CPR in microgravity is not as easy as you might think because you need something to push against Newton's laws, equal and opposite actions. And so what we do in space is we actually train on the zero G aircraft nicknamed the Vomit Comet. We go up on these flights and we practice doing handstands and using the ceiling to push, push against, so we can have the patient on the floor on a stretcher and doing this kind of handstand maneuver with our hands on their chest and using our feet on the ceiling. So it'll be interesting to see what kind of techniques they come up in a very confined Orion spacecraft to be able to deal with that, whether it's pushing against the shell of the Orion spacecraft, whether it's using some sort of bungees to keep their knees into place, and they'll be learning a lot about these kind of techniques that will be important for the future.
- [11:55]
C
So that's what's happened since we last looked in. And as always, we'll be bringing you more tomorrow. But now we're going to hear from some of you.
- [12:04]
A
Yes, and a huge thank you to all the listeners who've sent in brilliant questions to 30minutesbc.co.uk and please do keep sending them in. Now. Today we're going to Tackle one from Mark, who has asked, does Artemis have to dodge space junk and is there any natural debris floating around the solar system here which it might need to avoid? If so, how do you detect it, how do you avoid it, and how much time have you got to do so? Well, thank you Mark, and those are great questions. A short answer is that yes, Artemis 2 does have to worry about other objects in space and that was factored into their launch window. And so now, Maggie, as someone who's launched plenty of satellites, how many satellites are actually up there and how big a problem is this?
- [12:52]
C
So there are around 15,000 active satellites out there. But of course, with the mega constellations planned by Amazon and SpaceX future, there'll be more than 50,000 out there. These are active satellites, but there are more than 3,000 dead ones as well. And the dead ones can be defined as space junk. And they are a growing problem which comes up at government levels, in fact. Now they're naturally occurring space debris for micrometeoroids. And these are tiny fragments of dust left behind by comets and asteroids that are orbiting the sun. But it's the human made space junk that poses the real danger. A recent European Space Agency Space Environment report stated that there's now around 40,000 tracked objects orbiting the Earth. But the real numbers of dangerous fragments are far higher. About 1.2 million pieces bigger than 1 cm and roughly 130 million bigger than 1 millimeter. Now these tiny bits don't seem like much of a problem, but they are because they travel at great speeds, more than 10 times faster than a bullet. And so if something that small hits, it can seriously damage a satellite or spacecraft. And so things like Integrity and ISS are in danger. So Tim, did you ever experience anything like that on the iss?
- [14:08]
A
Yeah, we did, actually. It's a huge problem. We do have to be aware of it. And the interesting thing there, Meg, as you said, you know, space is a dirty place anyway. Nature makes it a dirty place with rocks, with micrometeorites, with dust, with debris. But the human debris creates a big problem because it's confined around Earth's orbit because we're launching the satellites up there. And Earth's gravity also obviously keeps it trapped and keeps it in the orbit. So we've got these 18,000 active and inactive satellites and all these pieces of tiny pieces of debris as well. And the space station does get hit by this debris occasionally. When you go out on the spacewalk you can see that, you can see little pock marks. In fact, we have to be really careful when we're moving our hands on the handrails, not to slide our gloves along the handrail in case there's a little bit of a shard of aluminium or something could slice open your glove. We go to the cupola window. There are a couple of small chips in it, which is a bit disconcerting. But it is 4 inches thick, so you're safe. But it's only a problem we have to be aware of. And a few times every year, the space station has to do a debris avoidance maneuver where it uses its own thrusters to raise its orbit and to adjust the orbit to get out of the way of a piece of debris. So this is all being monitored, though, by a number of different organizations. But the United States Space Force, they've got their Space Surveillance Network and that uses mainly radar. And it can detect a lot of pieces of debris, normally anything sort of 5-10 cm and greater. And it's great for detecting objects closer to Earth using radar. But when you get further away from Earth, radar becomes less useful, the signal attenuates. And so actually telescopes can be more useful. And you can use the light from objects and debris to detect pieces of debris. Debbie, further out. So, yeah, it is a really big problem.
- [15:59]
C
I build satellites for a living. I feel partly responsible. But now we are trying to put legislation in place. And so there are United nations sort of treaties and things like that already in place. But the thing is, the escalation in the number of satellites we're putting up there, we're not quite keeping up. And so there is sort of a law on space junk where we're trying to actually make sure that when people put up a satellite, they do it responsibly, they can put it into a dead orbit, deorbit it after it's been used. But, yes, we're just not keeping up. But I think one of the challenges is we have to come together as a globe to put the legislation in place. And as a globe, we're not always very good at doing that.
- [16:41]
E
And then, you know, one other thing that you really have to think about are ASAT tests or anti satellite weapons tests, which haven't happened much in recent years. But there was a big one, I believe, towards the end of 2021, when Russia tested out a direct ascent anti satellite missile test and took out just one of its very old satellites, the Cosmos 1408 satellite, and it created a massive debris field. And the International Space Station actually had to alter its orbit ever so slightly to avoid some of that Debris and of course there were astronauts and Russian cosmonauts inside. So when we talk about sort of the geopolitical environment that Artemis II is launching in right now and some of the dangers of space debris, yes, you've got the potential for these satellites malfunctioning and just colliding with each other in orbit. But you also have to think about people on Earth doing things to cause debris intentionally.
- [17:45]
C
Yes. Also when we sort of, we're trying to find solutions, one solution is deorbiting these satellites. But then you've got to be very careful of what's on board these satellites because are polluting the atmosphere with already what's on there. So there are dead orbits where satellites can sit and they'll just sort of stay there in a run environment. They won't move up or down. But there are a number of companies across the world looking into this and trying to come up with solutions. There are a few in the uk, One was harpooning satellites and then taking them out into a safe orbit. Another they're bringing them down so they burn up on the atmosphere a bit like a shooting star. But yes, I think having that long term view of how we manage our, how we manage our space environment is going to be a bigger and bigger question for the future.
- [18:33]
A
It really is. It is also a very dynamic environment. We're changing the way we think about things month by month almost. And at one point we were looking at, well, you know, you've got to deorbit your satellite within five years of it becoming defunct. But actually that might not be the thing because as you mentioned there Maggie, putting hundreds of tons worth of satellites into the upper atmosphere creates a lot of aluminium oxide when they burn up and that could be creating a problem for the ozone la. So it might be better until we research how do you burn up a satellite, what's the best way of doing it? Rather than doing it in a shallow trajectory where that debris remains in the upper atmosphere, it might be better to deorbit satellites in a much steeper trajectory so they burn up deeper into the atmosphere and so those particles actually come down back to Earth rather than hang around in the atmosphere. So we're learning an awful lot right now about how we can keep space clean, how we can keep Earth clean. I do work as an ambassador for the King's Astrakarta initiat and that really is focusing on many of the companies you mentioned there Maggie, about who are working really hard to solve these problems. And one of the reasons they're Working hard on this, and this is kind of a bit of a positive note, I guess for our listeners, is that everybody does want to keep space clean. The companies that are using space, there's no point polluting it because otherwise the economic model that they're based on starts to fail and the insurance premiums go sky high because it becomes impossible to insure a satellite in such a polluted environment. So everyone is focused for whatever reason on keeping space clean. So it's great to see that there's a lot of work being done. Lots of it's being funded by the space agencies as well and a lot of very intelligent people working on this problem.
- [20:16]
E
And big picture here, what's at stake is if the worst case scenario were to happen, right, the Kessler Syndrome were to take place and the frequency of collisions just rapidly spirals out of control. Worst case scenario would mean that humans would essentially be trapped on planet Earth, right? That humans and our spacecrafts would no longer be able to reach orbit because there was just so much debris. Do I have that worst case scenario? Right, Maggie and Tim sounds pretty bad.
- [20:48]
C
That would be the case. So for instance, with the launch of Integrity, there was a two hour launch window. But in that launch window they had to have little sort of 10 seconds every so often where they we can't launch now because there's something up there. But at the same time, I think some people might have seen those images of the Earth at the center and then this swarm of satellites and space debris around the Earth. That can sometimes be misleading though. So we're nowhere near the Kessler syndrome yet because that is misleading. Because if you think of the size of planet Earth and you think of the largest commercial satellite, I think that was Inmarsat 6, that's about the size of a double decker bus. But if you put a double decker bus next to Plan Earth, you're not going to see it. It's going to be beyond resolution. And so you have to scale up all the debris so you can see it. And so it looks far worse than it actually is, but it is still a major problem. And yes, that is the sort of the ultimate bad scenario where we can't actually get things into orbit because there's just so much debris around.
- [21:47]
A
And to follow up on that, Maggie, to put into perspective, We've mentioned about 18,000 active and inactive satellites in Earth orbit. Well, there are up to 20,000 aircraft flying in our skies at any space is a big place. There is plenty of room up there for all these satellites. It's a case of making sure that they don't collide and making sure that we manage that debris. But I just want to pull the conversation back to Mark, checking we have actually answered his questions about yes, there is space junk out there, but do you know the Orion spacecraft, it doesn't have active systems, it's not got radar on it like an aircraft might have to detect thunderstorms and bad weather. The Orion spacecraft is relying when it's close to Earth Earth on this space surveillance network to be able to detect that debris and to avoid it. But they do have thrusters on board. So if they get a message saying there's debris, we need to do a small correction burn to avoid it, they can do that. But actually a lot of the protection is passive. By that I mean protecting the Orion spacecraft. It's built with Kevlar and tiles. The European service module is covered in a Kevlar skin. There's thermal protection in the actual whole shell of the Orion spacecraft with silica fiber T and so that's thermal and micrometeoroid protection. So that's really what Orion is doing. It's doing a lot of passive protection from any strikes. And to get to Mark's last part of the question, how much time have you got to do so? Well, it completely depends on when you detect that debris on the space station. We've got radar that's constantly monitoring our orbit. And as long as we detect that debris within about 24 hours, then we can work out what orbital maneuver needs to be done and how to use our thrusters to do that. But that takes time to work out how to do a burn for the space station to change the orbit. So as that time period reduces, you'll get to a point where there's not enough time to actually work out how to burn the engines and what orbit to safely move to. And in that case, we shelter in place. The crew sometimes get told go to your spacecraft, shut the hat and wait for the danger to pass. And that has happened as well in the past. So there are various things you can do, but you obviously want to track these pieces of debris and find them in plenty of time so you can do a very well planned trajectory burn.
- [24:06]
C
Thank you for your question, Mark.
- [24:20]
A
And Doug, there's nowhere I wouldn't go to help someone customize and save on insurance with Liberty Mutual, even if it means sitting front row at a comedy show.
- [24:29]
F
Hey everyone, check out this guy and his bird.
- [24:31]
C
What is this, your first date?
- [24:33]
A
Oh, no, we help people customize and save on car insurance with Liberty Mutual. Together we're married. Me to a human, him to a bird.
- [24:40]
F
Yeah, the bird looks out of your league.
- [24:41]
A
Anyways, Only pay for what you need@libertymutual.com Liberty.
- [24:45]
D
Liberty.
- [24:46]
F
Liberty.
- [24:47]
D
Liberty.
- [24:48]
G
It's 2009 and we're in the German mountains. A mountain. A man straps himself into a car on the world's most dangerous racetrack. He whispers to himself, it's time to
- [24:57]
A
put my balls on the dashboard as
- [24:58]
G
he starts the engine.
- [25:00]
A
In 15 minutes, he's in an ambulance, unconscious. In 15 years, he's a billionaire.
- [25:05]
G
This is Toto Wolff, Formula One's most powerful team boss and the breakout star of Drive to Survive.
- [25:11]
C
This week on Good Bad Billionaire, How
- [25:13]
A
Toto Wolff made his billions. Listen wherever you get your BBC podcast podcasts.
- [25:20]
C
Joining us now is planetary scientist Professor Sarah Russell from the Natural History Museum. Sarah, welcome to 13 Minutes Presents Artemis 2.
- [25:30]
F
Great to be here, Maggie.
- [25:32]
A
Sarah, we were talking yesterday about NASA's plan to build a base on the moon in the future. Now that would likely be built at the South Pole because of the water ice that has been found there. And we say that very glibly, but finding that water ice, that was a real moment. We didn't know that water ice was on the moon until quite recently. So how did the moon get that water and how much is there?
- [25:55]
F
Yeah, so these are great questions because this is, as you say, it's a really kind of new area of science. So when the first rocks were brought back by the Apollo astronauts and the first scientists looked at these, they couldn't see any evidence for water. They thought the Moon was bone dry. And it was part of this dryness that actually fed into the big theory that then developed about how the Moon formed by a giant impact of a planet sized body into the surface of the Earth, which then produced a load of debris that eventually coalesced into a moon that was devoid of things like water that would have boiled off. So the dryness of the Moon has been a kind of paradigm of lunar science for a long time. But then we started to see hints of that there was actually water there, and that's in very rare minerals. In the Apollo samples, we see little bits of water captured. And then the orbital satellites around the moon started to see evidence for water in the polar regions, particularly in regions that we think are permanently shadowed. So they are in craters that are so deep that they actually never see sunlight, which keeps them very, very cold. And that means that they can and basically trap ice. So we think that the Moon formed Essentially dry. But then it actually got water from the impacts of comets and asteroids over its surface over four and a half billion years and gradually built up this reservoir of water ice, particularly in the polar regions.
- [27:31]
C
So I guess those polar regions don't see the sunlight, so the water ice doesn't evaporate. So I love that. And that's my plan to build a telescope in one of those premises that never see the sunlight. But, Sarah, what other resources apart from water are of interest? Because yesterday I was speaking about, it feels as if we're in the commercial era of space at the moment. And so what would attract private companies to go to the Moon?
- [27:57]
F
Yes, so as you say, water is the really big one because we can also use the hydrogen and oxygen in water to make fuel for rockets and also use the oxygen for breathing as well. But there are other things as well. So. So it's going to be really hard to get everything we need to build this lunar base from the Earth to the Moon. It's going to be much easier to use the in situ resources to make everything we need. And so there's a lot of research being done at the moment in using the lunar regolith. So that's the soil on the surface of the Moon to build stuff, to make buildings, to make machines and tools and everything else that you, you will need. So fundamentally, the Moon and the Earth are made of the same sort of material. So there are similar elements on both. So the Moon also has metals that can potentially be used by the lunar workers, and it also has some other resources. So, for example, there are areas of the Moon that might be rich in rare Earth elements that are particularly important for driving things like solar panels and batteries and so on, and smartphones. And the other resource the Moon potentially has is helium 3, and that's because it doesn't have an atmosphere like the Earth. And the radiation that comes out of the sun includes all sorts of particles, including Helium 3, which is a really kind of precious isotope because it can be used in medical imaging, it can be used to make very low temperature experiments, and also potentially it could be used in nuclear fusions. And the surface of the Moon is probably covered in helium 3. But the problem is it's kind of been spray painted. So it's in a very, very, very fine layer over the whole surface of the Moon. So whether it's feasible to actually extract it is another matter. So there's lots of opportunities for things on the Moon that might be useful for us.
- [29:59]
C
I suppose that's the challenge. There Are the resources there? But is it cost effective to go to the Moon to get them? And without a L base? And I suppose that's why the water's so critical, because the water can lead to a lunar base, and then it makes it worthwhile or worth the money to actually gather these resources.
- [30:16]
F
Yes, absolutely. The water is the most critical thing. And then I think it remains to be seen whether the resources on the Moon will be used only on the Moon itself, or whether there'll ever be an economic reason for extracting material from the Moon and bringing it back to Earth. Earth.
- [30:33]
E
So if water is the most critical thing on the Moon, and it appears that this water is concentrated in the South Pole of the Moon in the form of ice, essentially, and this is why China wants to build a lunar base there. It's why NASA and its Artemis partners want to build a base there. And yet no humans have obviously ever landed there. This is all done through scientific research. I mean, this is a lot of. Of pressure that's being placed on the south pole of the Moon, and yet no humans have actually been there. Are you sure that there's water ice there? And just walk our listeners through how exactly we know that.
- [31:15]
F
Yes. So that's a great question. And the honest answer is we do need humans to go to the South Pole to really find out what that is. So the evidence that we see is concentrations of hydrogen at both poles of the Moon, which is. Is sort of what you would expect if there was ice there. But what we don't know is we don't really know how much ice there is there yet, and we don't know how finely mixed it is with the regolith, which will mean we don't know how easy it's going to be to extract it. So it's probably not in the kind of form of, you know, massive glaciers like we see on the poles of the Earth, but exactly what form it's in, we don't quite know. And we really, really, really do want to know. So, yeah, the lunar scientists are so excited about the whole Artemis program, and particularly for Artemis 4, because we really, really want to see what those rocks look like and get a chance to actually look at them in our labs. And then we. Then we can answer these questions.
- [32:16]
E
And would it absolutely require human hands to do the kind of research that you're talking about, or could it be done with robots, uncrewed landers, that sort of thing?
- [32:26]
F
Yeah. So, you know, that's a subject of a huge debate within the community. So in some Ways, you know, robots might be better. They can work in cold conditions and they can work without air and they don't need to go to sleep. And so there are advantages to having robots, but also there's a fantastic advantage to have humans that there's something about the human brain can sort of see something that looks a bit different, who can make a judgment call that may be hard to program into a robot. So my personal opinion is that we need both. But also there's the whole inspirational aspect. I mean, everybody is following Artemis too. Everybody. I've spoken to all my friends and family, they're all so excited for the astronauts. And so I think this kind of inspiration is worth it. Much more than a robotic exploration.
- [33:24]
A
That's a great answer, Sarah, and I'm so glad you said that. I think humans working alongside robots is the answer. I'm always a big fan of sending humans as an astronaut. There's a brilliant movie I don't know if you've watched actually called Moon by Duncan Jones, David Bowie's son. And it's about humans who are mining the surface of the moon for that helium 3 and then sending it back for our fusion reactors. A future sci fi movie. Brilliant movie.
- [33:48]
C
It's one of my favorite favorites.
- [33:50]
A
It's great. It's really, really good. I just wanted to ask you. So I know we're focused on the moon at the moment, Sarah, but in the future I don't get to speak to planetary scientists that often. Mars, is there water on Mars?
- [34:04]
F
Yes, absolutely. And so of course Mars is the dream because we love the moon. The moon is just a fantastic companion to the Earth. But then once we've made that stepping stone to the moon, that then Mars will be our next target to get humans out there. And there's so much evidence now that Mars at least used to be a warm, habitable planet with water on it. There definitely used to be lots of water on Mars. And so that's the place in the solar system that might be most hopeful to have once hosted life. And so we can hopefully answer the question of whether there was life elsewhere in the universe by exploring Mars a bit more. And that will take the form of first bringing rocks back from Mars, which I hope will happen despite delays in that program, and eventually getting humans to the surface of Mars to explore that more.
- [35:00]
A
Brilliant. Well, we'll bring you back when we do. BBC 13 Minutes presents the first human mission.
- [35:09]
C
We were talking about going to Mars. Compared with the moon, Mars is quite benign because I think the average temperature on Mars is a bit like Antarctica, Whereas the environment on the moon is quite severe from the day side to the night side. So we talk about sort of building sort of a lunar base, but can you talk to us about a little bit about the environment that that base will have to survive and the challenges of that?
- [35:31]
F
Yes. So a base on the moon is going to have to survive very harsh conditions. And so a lot of the work will probably have to be done underground or at least in some sort of contained environment where the atmosphere and temperature can be kept stable, because, as you say, there's a great difference in temperature on the lunar day and the lunar night, each of which lasts for 14 days. So it's going to be really challenging to be able to do that. And again, this is why it's really important to be able to understand better the lunar resources that are there and what might be available for making building materials that can produce this stable environment and also protect the lunar workers from the radiation which they'll experience continuously as well. So, yeah, it's not an easy place to live.
- [36:21]
A
Sarah, that has been absolutely fascinating talking to you. Thank you so much for coming on the podcast. Unfortunately, that's all we have time for, but thank you.
- [36:29]
F
Thank you very much, Tim. It was great to meet you all.
- [36:32]
E
But just before we go, one last quick question from a listener who wrote to 13minutesbc.co.uk to ask, did the crew take Snoopy with them them on the Artemis 2 mission? Kind regards, Nicola. Well, Tim, you want to, you want to take this one? I think you know a thing or two about zero gravity indicators.
- [36:54]
A
Yeah, I, I don't think they took Snoopy, but they took Rise, didn't they? That, that lovely little moonrise cushion that they used as their zero gravity indicator. Unless anybody knows any difference. Have they got a Snoopy there as well?
- [37:08]
E
I don't think they've got a hidden Snoopy stash. At least I haven't heard about it. But can you imagine, I've heard about
- [37:14]
C
Rise and Rise is beautiful. Yeah, Rise is beautiful.
- [37:18]
E
Can you imagine if you were the little boy, I believe he was a second grader. NASA put out a contest for the zero gravity indicator and let kids all over the world submit their ideas for it. And this little second grader came up with Rise and that was the thing that let the astronauts know when they were weightless.
- [37:36]
C
Yes, because I suppose the zero gravity indicator starts floating when they're weightless. Cause I guess they're all strapped in, but it starts floating.
- [37:44]
A
Yes, it's such a cool moment main engine cut off, everything goes quiet and then your zero gravity indicator is there. It's really, really fun to see.
- [37:54]
E
I'd imagine the only requirement of a zero gravity indicator is that it's soft, right? No hard edges to hit you in the head or something.
- [38:02]
C
I think soft and cute because rise is so cute.
- [38:07]
A
Brilliant. Well, Kristen, thank you so much as well. I know you've got a flight to get off to, so thank you for joining us.
- [38:13]
E
Joining us, I'm finally leaving Cape Canaveral in Florida. This is it.
- [38:17]
A
Safe travels and we'll see you tomorrow.
- [38:19]
E
Bye. See you tomorrow.
- [38:21]
C
A reminder, we're doing an episode every day for this mission. Do follow or subscribe to 30min so you never miss an episode. But that's it for today. So goodbye from me, Maggie Adaron and me, Tim Peake.
- [38:33]
A
The producers are Alex Mansfield and Sophie Ormiston and the series editor is Martin Smith.
- [38:38]
C
And our thanks to Hans Zimmer and Christian Lundberg at Bleeding Fingers music for their theme music.
- [38:44]
A
13 Minutes presents Artemis 2 is a BBC audio science production for the BBC World Service.
- [39:02]
G
It's 2009 and we're in the German mountains. A A man straps himself into a car on the world's most dangerous racetrack. He whispers to himself, it's time to
- [39:11]
A
put my balls on the dashboard as
- [39:13]
G
he starts the engine.
- [39:14]
A
In 15 minutes, he's in an ambulance, unconscious. In 15 years, he's a billionaire.
- [39:20]
G
This is Toto Wolff, Formula One's most powerful team boss and the breakout star of Drive to Survive.
- [39:26]
C
This week on Good Bad Billionaire, How
- [39:28]
A
Toto Wolff made his billions. Listen wherever you get your BBC podcasts.