← 13 Minutes Presents: Artemis II
13 Minutes Presents: Artemis II
Artemis II: 7. A family photo
00:39:53
More toilet worries as the crew of Integrity pose for a picture in the capsule windows
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BBC Announcer
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Tim Peake
Welcome to 13 Minutes presents Artemis 2 from the BBC World Service. I'm astronaut Tim Peake and this is episode seven, approaching flight day five.
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Maggie Adairin
And I'm space scientist Maggie Adairin. We're following the progress of the first crewed mission around the moon in more than 50 years with a new episode every day.
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Becky Morrell
It technically will work with number one
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Grainger Advertiser / Technical Support
right now, but we just want to keep the tanks half full right now until we figure out what's going on with the vent line. Absolutely. It's still go for number two. And as far as the collapsible contingency urine devices, each crew member has two of those.
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Tim Peake
Oh, dear. Sounds like toilet trouble. And as ever, space journalist Kristin Fisher is joining us. And you flew somewhere yesterday, Kristin, where are you talking to us from?
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Becky Morrell
I did.
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Kristin Fisher
Hello, Tim and Maggie. I am now back in my home studio in Washington D.C. back from Florida. And I also wanted to welcome back BBC's science editor, Becky Morrell. Becky, I understand you got a grand tour of the mission control in Houston. Yesterday. And I understand you've developed a bit of an obsession, is that right?
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Becky Morrell
Yeah, that's right. Yeah. No, we've, we've now shifted from the Kennedy Space center to Mission Control at the Johnson Space Center. So I'm currently speaking to you from Houston. And yeah, we got to, to go in and have a look at the Artemis Mission Control yesterday. I mean, we were behind glass because they've got to concentrate down there. But it really is the nerve center of the operations. You know, every aspect of the spacecraft is being monitored from its navigation to its propulsion to life support systems. You know, there are banks of desks. There's about 20 people down there. They work three shifts, so they're covered for 24 hours a day. It's around the clock. And right in the center of the room you can see that the flight director sitting there concentrating on hard. And to the right is what's known as the capcom, the, the Capsule Communicator. And it's their voice that the astronauts hear on the spacecraft. So it's their kind of constant link with, with home. But it was, it was really quite special to, to, to actually not quite be there in the room because we were behind glass, but it was, it was, it was amazing to actually to, to, to see it. But they, they have been troubleshooting a problem on, on the spacecraft, which I am totally going obsessed with.
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Tim Peake
So, Becky, can you tell us what's happened to the loo? What's the problem?
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Becky Morrell
Yes, spill the tea.
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Kristin Fisher
It's what everybody wants to know.
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Becky Morrell
I know, I know. I mean they, well, they had, they had a bit of a problem with the Universal Waste Management System, AKA the toilet. Not that long after, after launch. That was a bit of a problem, but Christina Cook had to do a spot of space plumbing to fix it. It turned out that the loo wasn't properly primed for use. Few. And then, and then there was another problem which has happened over the last sort of 24 hours or so. So basically the, the wastewater that the wee from the astronauts is actually collected in a bin about. It's about the size of an office bin and then it is vented out into space. But the external vent, which it's outside of the capsule, which is responsible for kind of getting rid of the Wii Froze disaster, which meant they couldn't empty the loo. So basically they had to ask the astronauts to use. And I'm going to read this out so I get it right because I like it. Collapsible contingency urine devices, AKA a Bag with a funnel. I mean, omg, that is. I wouldn't fancy doing that. But, you know, you're an astronaut, you're trained for everything until they fix the problem. But the fix was really clever, actually. So they, they basically sort of turned the spacecraft towards the sun so that the vents could be heated up again. And it seems that the. The loo is fixed. I mean, it must be a great relief to the, to the astronauts that they can, that they can use it again. But it has, I think, the thing that struck me, actually. So these four astronauts are having to spend sort of, you know, there's no privacy in there. Their capsule is so cramped. I mean, they are squished in together. There's no privacy amongst the four, but there's sort of no privacy from the rest of the world either. So, you know, everyone's been following every step of their mission and everyone's been following every step of the toilet drama. And I mean, it got to the point in the press conference where someone said, well, you know what happens with the number ones and the number two? So we knew if they needed a wee to urinate that they had to use these special sort of bags with funnels. But if they needed a number two, that was okay because that bagged up and saved for the journey home. I mean, everyone is obsessed with the loo, but I mean, even more obsessed with the broken loo. I mean, you must have had this, Tim, when you were in space. It's all everyone wants to know, how do you go to the toilet in space? But also now you can add in there, how do you use a broken toilet in space? With difficulty. Anyway, the drama, drama over. It's. It's done. They can use the Louvre again.
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Tim Peake
But now it is one of the most important pieces of equipment after all. So ultimately it was a blocked drain, something that we're all very, very familiar with. But no great to know that they've unblocked that. And of course, that was only affecting the number one. So we heard there. Number two, the solid waste container, you can still use that because that's all going to remain in the spacecraft and all come back with them as well. But no, thank you very much for Becky for giving us that very thoroughly Happy.
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Becky Morrell
Happy to. I'm keeping across the loo news here.
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Maggie Adairin
So, Lou Gate, I love it.
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Becky Morrell
I'll bring you any breaking, breaking loo news in the as as it comes in.
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Kristin Fisher
You're so right, though. They have no privacy, right? I mean, amongst themselves, but with the public, all of this, their Their bodily functions are, are being shared with the world. And not that there's anything wrong with their bodily functions, this is exactly what the Artemis 2 test flight is all about, is to test these very human systems to make sure that they work. And of course they knew that there would be some issues that would pop up, but maybe not quite this many with the, the loo, as I'm going to start calling it from now on.
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Becky Morrell
Please do, please do, you must.
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Maggie Adairin
But, but I think it really brings home that these are people in space and it almost feels as if we're going on the journey with them. It makes it really sort of, for want of a better word, down to Earth because, yeah, these are everyday problems that they're facing as they travel out to the moon.
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Becky Morrell
They've gone from the magnificent to the mundane, haven't they? They've got these amazing views in one easy step. You still have to worry about the toilet. It's. Yeah, there we go.
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Kristin Fisher
One of my favorite moments from Christina was when she, she called it the human dichotomy of looking at the out the window and having these big grand thoughts about the meaning of life and what this all means and then thinking, hmm, I need to go change my socks, my feet are kind of cold. Like that dichotomy of experience, it keeps
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Tim Peake
them very grounded, I'm sure. And I know. In other news, they also cancelled the outbound trajectory correction burn, which was fantastic because that means again, that translunar injection bone was so accurate they haven't had to do that. But I think they are planning on OTC3. And Becky, they've been doing something with their Orion Crew Survival System suits as well, haven't they?
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Becky Morrell
Yeah, that's right. That's their plan for today. So as we're recording, the astronauts are currently asleep. They're going to be woken up a little bit later and they are going to be practicing, putting on. I'm going to read it out here actually, so I get it right? The Orion Crew Survival System, which is quite a mouthful. So everyone here is calling them ox. These are the bright orange flight suits that they wore on launch day. I mean, you remember the images of them kind of getting suited up and ready to go out to the rocket. Well, they're going to practice putting them on in the capsule. Now, of course, on launch day they had a team of people to help them get ready and into them. But here they need to practice putting these suits on in case of an emergency because they're there basically if anything happens in the capsule. So Say something like, you know, there was a depressurization event. They could get into these spacesuits. And they would keep them safe. They can keep them alive for six days inside. You know, get rid of the carbon dioxide, bring oxygen in. They've got all sorts of features for actually, if they land and there's a problem. I mean, one of the reasons why they're very bright orange. It's so they could be easily spotted in the ocean. They've got flashlights attached, things like that. So they've got all sorts of features to keep them safe. And they're not quite the same as the spacesuits that you'd wear if you were doing a spacewalk, like you did, Tim. They're different to that, but they would keep them safe inside the capsule where something to happen. So it's really important that they can get them on and off quickly. And what's quite nice about them, actually, is they've all been custom made to custom fit each astronaut. Because if you look at the astronauts, particularly in that spacecraft, they're quite different sizes. I mean, Jeremy Hansen, six foot two and a half. Christina Cook, considerably smaller. So I think it must be quite nice for them to have a spacesuit that sort of actually fits them. Rather than in the shuttle days when, you know, you had to sort of slot into whatever size that there was. So it'd be interesting to see the pictures coming back from that. And I don't think it's a trivial task putting them on. It's a bit harder. But they have got kind of reinforced zips to get in and out a bit more, a bit more quickly. So I'm looking forward to seeing the pictures come back from that today.
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Maggie Adairin
And I suppose if they have to live in them for six days. Making sure that they're a custom fit. You need to be quite comfortable in that, I would have thought.
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Becky Morrell
Yeah, that's right. And if you sort of come out of the spacecraft quickly, their boots are actually made to be a bit more comfortable as well. So for the bit when they were sort of before launch, they're kind of easier to get about in. But you wore a flight suit, didn't you, Tim?
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Tim Peake
Absolutely, yes. It's a similar thing in the Soyuz spacecraft. You've got this soft fabric spacesuit. And as you mentioned there, Becky, it's not the same suit as what you wear when you do a spacewalk. Even when they're wearing these suits, they're still very reliant on the Orion spacecraft. That has to provide them all the oxygen they need to breathe. It has to remove the carbon dioxide. It's providing the communication for them. Their spacesuit can't do that. Whereas when you go outside on a spacewalk that's like a mini space station you're wearing, it does absolutely everything for you. But still, there's a really important system. They've got to test it out, they've got to make sure it works. That would be a really uncomfortable six days, though, to spend living in that suit, you know, drinking through a tube that's coming in through the helmet and, you know, obviously being pretty uncomfortable for that length of time. But it will keep you alive. And that's the most important point. Becky, I've got one last question. I know you've got to go, but I heard yesterday they got woken up by Pink Pony Club, by Chapel Roan. Now, who on earth chose that music? Have you got any idea?
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Becky Morrell
It's. No, I don't know. But their music is chosen by family, family and friends. But I mean, they seem to be pretty happy about the choices. So, you know, it's, they're obviously, obviously fans up there. But it has, it's been really nice to see their, their music choices for the, for the day, waking them up. I mean, it's sort of, it's just another little link with home, isn't it? You know, they're so, they're so, they're so far away, but, you know, having access to sort of music and kind of what you like down here on Earth must be, Must be, you know, kind of gets you going in the morning.
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Kristin Fisher
I guess that's got to be one of their daughters, you know, suggesting that it's got to be Reed or Jeremy or maybe Victor's daughters.
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Tim Peake
Yeah, maybe Victor. I think that's probably Victor's taste, isn't it? I'm sure he's into that. I chose, I chose some Lady Gaga to be played into the Sawyers because I knew it would just wind up Tim Copa, my crewmate. Brilliant. Thank you so much. Thank you so much, Becky, for your insights and we look forward to hearing you tomorrow.
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Becky Morrell
Thanks very much. Good luck with the rest of the recording. See you tomorrow, hopefully. Bye bye.
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Maggie Adairin
Okay, so I have more updates tomorrow and of course, tomorrow they will be breaking that record of the greatest distance away from Earth. So that'll be very exciting to hear about that. But in the meantime, let's hear from some of you.
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Tim Peake
Yes, and thank you to all the listeners who've been sending in some brilliant questions to 13minutesbc.co.uk and please do keep sending them in so we've got time for just a couple here. Kristin, what have you got?
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Kristin Fisher
We've got a great one from Alex in Australia. He asks, hi, team, really enjoying listening to your coverage of the Artemis 2 mission each day. Now that the mission has left Earth's orbit and is on its way to the moon, they have to use the NASA Deep Space Network to communicate. And Australia's part of the network with the Canberra Deep Space Communication Complex. Whoo. That was in the actual question. For the record, I'm not adding it for emphasis. Okay, if we're going to be heading to the moon more often and even establishing permanent bases, are there any plans to put communication satellites around the moon? And would that even make a difference? Cheers, Alex from Tasmania, Australia. Alex, we actually got several emails with that same question. So, Tim, what's the answer?
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Tim Peake
Okay, yeah, no, it's a great question. Thank you, Alex. Yes, it would make a huge difference to have a communication system around the moon. And yes, there are plans to do that. As Alec mentions, we've got this Deep Space Network which is basically communication stations around the world, in California, in Canberra, Australia, in Spain, and actually goon hilly in the UK is part of that as well, as well as several satellites in orbit and that provides this seamless communication to spacecraft on the way to the moon and back. But there will still be this period where the CRE crew fly around the far side of the moon for about 50 minutes. We'll have no communication with them. So that's quite a nerve wracking moment for everybody back in Mission Control. If we were to have a system where we have satellites around the moon, then we could provide 4G 5G coverage. We could get great photographs back from them, good communication, good data, downlinks at all times around the moon for balloon base and for any landing site you might pick. And there are plans to put that in place. Certainly the European Space Agency have got their moonlight program, which aims between about 2028 and 2030, to put satellites into the lunar orbit that would provide exactly this kind of system.
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Maggie Adairin
Also, I love the Deep Space Network. And one of the things that NASA was saying is that it's the first time that humans have used the Deep Space network in over 50 years. Because when astronauts are in low Earth orbit on the International Space Station, there's direct relay back down to the Earth, so they don't need the deep. So we're using it with humans for the first time in a long time. And also there is an intention to Upgrade the Deep Space Network. And so there were plans, and I think Canberra is the first one to be getting the upgrade. So I think it's belts and braces, sort of these relays around the moon, but also upgrading the Deep Space Network too.
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Kristin Fisher
And when you listen to NASA Administrator Jared Isaacman talk about this rapid increase in cadence of Moon missions, you can really start to get a sense for how tapped the Deep Space Network is going to be very soon. And already there's been some issues with, you know, Potentially this mission, Artemis 2, and the James Webb Space Telescope. How do they. How do they both use the same network at the same time? So that's going to become an increasing issue over the next few years, which is why the stuff that Tim was talking about is so important.
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Tim Peake
Brilliant. So thank you, Alex, for that. And Aaron has asked. I realize today that I'm confused about the role of gravity in this phase. On the one hand, it's clear that the astronauts are in zero g, but on the other, I see that Orion is gradually decelerating. I assume that was because the Earth was exerting a greater pull on the spacecraft and slowing it down more than the pull from the much smaller Moon was exerting to speed it up. But how can all this be happening if the astronauts are in zero g? How can gravity both be affecting the spacecraft and not affecting it inside? What am I missing? I'm sure I'm not the only person who's wondering that, so I hope you can find time to answer it. Maggie, over to you.
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Maggie Adairin
And this is a question that many people have asked. Firstly, I think we need to tackle 0G because 0G is a bit of a misnomer. It actually implies that there's no gravity. And of course there is gravity. They're falling between the sort of they're leaving the Earth and falling towards the Moon. Now, in low Earth orbit, a spacecraft is at a very sweet spot where it's fast enough to be sort of traveling round the Earth. Not too fast that it pings out into space, not too slow that it lands on the Earth, but they're traveling round the Earth and the Earth is sort of curving away, so they are constantly falling. And that's what this is what we call a microgravity environment. So it's not that gravity is no longer. They're not experiencing it anymore, but they are falling towards the Earth. And if you're, for. If you're constantly falling, you're effectively. It feels like weightlessness. Now, something similar is happening on this journey towards the Moon, they are sort of. The Earth is still sort of has a pull on them, but they are falling towards the Moon. So because they're falling, they are still experiencing that, that microgravity environment. Now, as that trajectory sort of curves around the Moon and brings them back to Earth, the spacecraft is doing occasional burns, but it's actually sort of following this trajectory that will land them and splash them down in the Pacific Ocean. So, yes, zero gravity is a misnomer. They're in this microgravity environment, and it is because they are constantly falling either towards the Moon or back towards the Earth.
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Tim Peake
Thank you, Maggie. I guess it's all relative, isn't it? They're falling at the same speed that their spacecraft is falling. So inside that spacecraft, they just feel like they are in weightlessness. But as soon as that spacecraft burns its engine, of course it will exert a force on them and they'll no longer be in zero g. They'll then feel that acceleration and they'll certainly feel it when that spacecraft starts coming into Earth atmosphere at 25,000 miles per hour. For sure.
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Kristin Fisher
Tim, do they feel it for something like a translunar injection burn?
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Tim Peake
Yes, absolutely. A much more gentle push, because it's a smaller engine. It's burning for, you know, five minutes, 50 seconds. On that case, that was a 6,000 pound engine, not the vast power of the whole SLS system. So it feels like a gentle push in the back, maybe sort of 1.52g.
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Kristin Fisher
Well, there is nothing gentle about the modern rockets of today. And I think that one of the other questions that we all get asked a lot is about some of the different differences between the first space race or the first space age and this one. And really it all comes down to the burgeoning commercial space industry. And so we just want to spend a little bit of time talking about that, because that's just been such a massive shift over the last 20 years. And at the very forefront of that industry, of course, is SpaceX. SpaceX has completely changed the game with reusable rockets, which I know Tim wants to talk about in just a minute, but SpaceX is without a doubt the global leader in launching payloads and people into space. And most of them are done on a Falcon 9 rocket. They've also got their Falcon Heavy, but the big one, the one that everybody has their eyes on, and the one that will rival what we just saw, launch the Artemis II crew into space. The SLS rocket is called Starship, and Starship is and will be the biggest and most powerful rocket to ever fly. So it's going to have a few test flights a little bit later this year. Definitely one to watch. The other big player right now in launch providers, specifically in the United States, is Blue Origin. Blue Origin just launched its second test flight of its first orbital rocket called New Glenn. And it too, on its first attempt, was able to land its booster back on a drone ship in the middle of the ocean. Just an incredible moment in space and a real accomplishment for that company. And then the other one I want to mention, I want to make sure I'm not just highlighting. The American launchers is rocket lab based, or they have one of their primary launch facilities in New Zealand and they have a really impressive electron rocket and a neutron rocket in development. And so you have a few others ULA in the United States as well, the United Launch Alliance. But those are the rockets that have really taken over from NASA and from governments all over the world, the business of launching both people and payloads into space.
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Maggie Adairin
I must admit, seeing those rockets sort of go up and then sort of land again, it makes my heart skip a beat. Because it's just amazing. The technology behind that and the reusability, it just gives us so much potential
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Kristin Fisher
and makes it financially affordable.
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Tim Peake
Absolutely. And that's the key, isn't it? That's the big difference is bringing down this cost of access to space. And reusability is the key, because the cheapest part of the rocket is the fuel that you put inside it. So if you can bring back all the expensive bits and reuse them 25, 30, 40 times and just refuel the fuel, put fuel in it, then that's the cheapest way of doing it. So SpaceX have achieved that with their Falcon 9, with their Falcon Heavy, and also we're seeing that with Starship as it goes through the development stage as well, by bringing back the most expensive parts of their rocket. And in order to do that though, you have to fundamentally change some elements like the engines. If you're going to get 25 usages, 25 launches out of an engine, then it can't be the, you know, the RS25s that we saw launch the SLS and they've moved to things called full flow stage combustion engine, which sounds like a mouthful, but it's quantum leaps in technology that are allowing engines to be used. They're burning methane, which is much cleaner, much more efficient. It doesn't choke up the engines as much. And also methane is a much easier fuel to handle. We saw the delays to SLS with the hydrogen leaks with the helium leaks on the pressurized tanks. So methane is a larger molecule. It, it's much easier fuel to manage. And so what that has done is it's brought the cost down. And Kristin, when your parents flew on the space shuttle, it was around about $57,000 to put 1 kilogram into low earth orbit. And Falcon 9 today will be about $1,500. And Elon Musk with SpaceX is saying with Starship is going to be down at around sort of 400, $500 range per kilogram to low earth orbit. And that is incredibly cheap compared to what we used to.
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Kristin Fisher
I mean, the whole name of the game is escaping Earth's gravity, right, and doing it as cheaply as possible to bring more people and payloads up to the moon and beyond. That's what's going to be needed in order to really develop what they call the CIS lunar economy, an economy centered around the moon instead of Earth. One other big change over the last few decades since the, the first space race between the United States and Russia has been the emergence of other global players in the space industry, notably India and of course, China, who is now really giving the United States a run for their money in this second space race. And you know, unlike the United States, where we have these really pesky terrestrial issues like term limits and changing administrations, and China doesn't have to deal with that. China can just set a goal 5, 10, 15 years out, say this is what we're gonna do and just do it, you know, and not have Congress squabble over, are we gonna give them money? Are we not gonna give this program money? They have this ability to just set their focus on a goal and go after it in a way that a democracy does not. And so far you have had people like the former NASA administrator Jim Bridenstine testify under oath before Congress just a few months ago and say that he thinks there's a good chance that China will indeed beat the United States back to the moon this time.
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Maggie Adairin
But I find it interesting that there's a sort of a different gene pool, and I like it that there were more players. Back in sort of the Apollo era, it was sort of a USSR versus America. I think it's almost like a Monopoly. Having more players, I think sort of increases the likelihood of success. And we talk about more players and more commercial players. So it is a very mixed gene pool now, and I think that will lead us to getting there sooner.
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Tim Peake
Absolutely fascinating conversation. I'm sure we're going to be talking a lot More about this, but the crew are nearing a really exciting part of this mission. It is of course, the lunar flyby which is approaching tomorrow. We've already seen some amazing photographs coming back from the crew, but we're anticipating with great excitement the kind of photographs that are going to come back during this flyby, obviously using different cameras and angles and exposure times. And photography is starting to become a big conversation point.
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Maggie Adairin
All right everybody, we're taking the pictures, so say cheese and stay still for
- [27:24]
Kristin Fisher
about 30 seconds while we perform this photography bracket from the saws.
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Grainger Advertiser / Technical Support
Okay, we'll freeze in 3, 2, 1. Mark.
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Tim Peake
Foreign.
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Kristin Fisher
Everybody can relax. That was great. Thank you so much. We all look forward to getting your Christmas card come December. Thanks.
- [27:53]
Tim Peake
In that clip we heard the sound of all four astronauts looking out of separate windows and staying very still for their family portrait. A lot of space fans will have seen the terrific photos also from Apollo and the Gemini and the Mercury programs that came before this. And by using modern techniques, some remarkable detail has been extracted from those early space pictures.
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Maggie Adairin
But can Artemis 2 images reveal more both scientifically and artistically and perhaps emotionally as well than we've ever seen before? Well, well, to answer this question, we're delighted to welcome to 30 minutes from the BBC World Service the best selling author and photographic restoration specialist, Andy Saunders.
- [28:36]
BBC Announcer
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Maggie Adairin
Hi Andy. Now you've worked on NASA's film archive for many years and you've gone back further in your most recent books to the pre Apollo era. Now it's always hard to talk about these images on a podcast, but from what I'm seeing there's a lot of echoes with the pictures from the past, with what is being sent back from Integrity. Are you seeing this too?
- [29:40]
BBC Announcer
Yeah, certainly. I mean, actually I'm quite relieved with what's come back so far. You know, I was concerned that would be absolutely inundated with imagery. Back in the early days it was on film, it was a finite resource. We even had to wait till they got back from the moon to see, you know, what is it like to see the Earth from distance. What's it like on the moon? There's something quite romantic about that actually. Of course, now it's digital. They'll be taking thousands of photographs. I was really concerned that would become desensitized if they send too many. But I actually think, think NASA's got the balance just right. Being clearly quite selective and kind of drip feeding these images through. Because we are in a modern world, you know, we have got this technology now. We can beam these photographs back live. We are an impatient bunch nowadays. We're very image led. People expect to see high quality images instantly. So yeah, those first two photographs that came through, actually the one that hit me first was the one from further inside the spacecraft. What I tried to do with a lot of my work is, is. Is have it almost like we can experience it, like it places within the spacecraft to go on this journey ourselves. So few people have the opportunity to do that. So that photograph that you can kind of see the window a bit further away and then there's the glint of Earth just popping up over the bottom of the window. You know, instantly we're in that spacecraft and then you get the perspective Earth and you realize, wow, I don't usually see that perspective of Earth and you realize where we are. So those kind of photographs really hit home. And then of course there was the hello world, you know, and a spectacular photograph, very reminiscent of the blue marble that was taken on our last mission to the moon on Apollo 17. But yeah, you say with digital images have almost become quite transient now. You know, we take 5 billion photographs a day, 12 trillion photographs have been taken since the, the advent of photography. But that blue marble shot stands above them all. It is the most reproduced, most viewed photograph ever taken. And like I say, images now are transient. You might see an image of the whole Earth and say, oh, wow, there's the whole Earth. And with a flick of the finger, it's gone. And, oh, there's a cat wearing some sunglasses and a flick and it's gone. And that really frustrates me. And what I always try to do is put these photographs in perspective. And it's the same with this new one. When you consider the fact that there are. There were three that in the original photograph, in this new photograph, there are four people inside a tiny capsule traveling at 20,000 miles an hour away from their home planet. One of them lifts the camera to the window, releases the shutter and takes a photograph of the whole Earth amongst the endless blackness of space. I think that's having a human behind the lens is what really hits home.
- [32:25]
Tim Peake
Hi Andy. I absolutely agree and you've managed to do that incredibly well with your remastered photographs from those early Hasselblad cameras. But fundamentally as you said their modern cameras are being used. They do catch more detail than photographic films. Can you kind of just explain to us how much better are the photographs that we're getting from these Nikon D5s for example versus the Hasselblad and in the future will people be able to extract even more detail from the photographs that we're getting back now?
- [32:57]
BBC Announcer
Yeah, better is quite subjective I suppose. I mean speaking someone who absolutely loves like the old film, it's like that vinyl digital music type discussion. I guess there's a warmth to film and a tonal range actually don't really get in digital. Digital can be quite clinical almost. So certainly in the. For the Apollo era film was just the perfect medium to capture that. It's actually incredibly high resolution with these high bit depth and resolution scan scanning technology we have now. That's what how I was able to kind of make those photographs look like they were taken yesterday. But digital of course. Yeah they are incredibly high quality and it's, it's kind of easier to capture that detail. So something that we can see in that hello, hello world photograph is you know the fact that it's taken of the night side of Earth and we can see stars, we can see Venus, we can see the aurora. There's so much to inspect in that photograph now versus that first blue marble photograph. So yeah they've got the two Nikon D5s, they've actually got a Z9 which is. They managed to get on the manifest quite late on. And that's going to be the camera that will be used on the lunar surface. So here's an opportunity to test it. It's not yet flight tested in space. Whereas the D5 is or we've got these GoPro cameras, we've got wingtip cameras on the solar panel arrange. You know I think there are about eight other cameras on board, some for national cell phones. Cell phones, yeah. We've not seen any photographs from those yet I don't think. And with this O2O system. So this is the system that can send data and imagery back via laser. You know again how different when you compare that the Apollo days, the ability to send 4K live stream from the moon. I suspect we might see that as part of the Lunafly by. Let's see there's just so much more opportunity and like I say they will be taking thousands of Photographs. Back in the Apollo days, they had to be really selective about what they captured.
- [34:56]
Kristin Fisher
You know, Andy, no matter what camera you use, nothing is a perfect substitute for the human eyes. And painting has actually become a hobby for quite a few former Apollo astronauts and Soviet cosmonauts. I mean Soviet cosmonaut Alexei Leonov and Apollo astronaut Alan Bean spent many years after their space flights kind of obsessing over painting and trying to capture all the colors that they had seen, but felt that the cameras hadn't adequately captured. And so I'm curious, what do you think it is that the Artemis 2 crew is going to feel like they weren't quite able to capture on film, but that they were able to see with their own eyes?
- [35:41]
BBC Announcer
Yeah, it can be difficult to pull out the color actually. So people think that the moon is just gray. And it also depends on, it depended a lot on the astronaut. Some of these astronauts were really kind of, you know, hard nosed test pilots, fighter pilots, they weren't particularly poetic artistic bunch. Pete Conrad, remember he said from orbit, oh, the moon just looks, just looks great, just looks like my driveway at home. Whereas someone like, whereas like, someone like Alan Bean, it was a bit more artistic and could look a bit harder. But no, there are colors and actually I'll be interesting to hear that the Artemis 2 crew discuss color actually, because you can see it from orbit. It depends on the, the angle of the sun on the surface. The moon can look green, greenish because of the mineral olivine that's in it can look quite tan color. That was, that was the color that was mentioned the most from orbit and on the surface. And that's because there are these glass beads, basically microscopic glass beads that are high in iron content and at a particular sun angle they reflect that iron and it can look a tan color. So some of the astronauts could see this. Apollo 10, I remember, certainly could see that color. Apollo 11 referred to. It said I, I agree with the tank crew, it looks brown, but then at a different sun angle it goes back to gray. So it depends, you know, on the eye that was looking at it. And something I have tried to do with the images is, is, is show that color. But yeah, Alan Bean's a great example. Alexa Leonov actually took colored pencils and a pad on his, his mission to sketch an orbital, the beautiful colors of an orbital sunrise and sunset. Whereas John Glenn insisted on taking what was back then quite a basic camera to capture the same.
- [37:25]
Tim Peake
And of course Harrison schmidt on Apollo 17, he saw that orange soil and that was what really Excited everybody because that has told us that there was volcanic activity on the Moon much more recently than we first thought. So color is a huge part of the observations these astronauts are going to make as they observe the far side of the Moon. It's going to be really exciting to see. What are you most excited about seeing, Andy, on these photographs?
- [37:53]
BBC Announcer
The next obvious one will be Earthrise. You know, I mentioned the blue marble earlier, the most viewed photograph, Earthrise, perhaps the most beautiful, perhaps the most influential. It was a catalyst for the environmental movement that continues today. Every Apollo astronaut said the view of Earth from the Moon is what really impacted them the most. Bill Anders, who was on Apollo 8, first mission to the Moon, said, how fascinating that we spent all this focus and time and money. I'm going to discover the Moon, but what we really discovered was Earth. You know, to see the Moon on Earth in one shot again will be absolutely spectacular. So that's something certainly that I'm looking forward to next.
- [38:32]
Maggie Adairin
One of the things I find interesting is, I think when they're trying to recreate these images, you're at home in paints and things like that. I think one of the things they're trying to recreate is the emotion that they felt when they saw these things and try and get that down. And I think photography can do that to a certain extent, extent. But I can understand why they might go to other mediums, but also on the flip side, leaving the emotion behind when they're on the far side of the moon. I think they've actually been trained to look out for geological features. And so it's going to be interesting what they send back there from a scientific viewpoint and how we can learn from the human eye and what they see and the images they take.
- [39:07]
BBC Announcer
Yeah, I mean, something that is different, of course, about Artemis 2 versus Apollo is Apollo orbited around 60 miles above the surface, so you can only. You can't see very far. Inverted commas, north and south. Artemis 2 is going to be 4,000 miles away. And so we'll be able to see and photograph, you know, those north and south polar regions, which is something. Something that no human eyes have ever seen.
- [39:30]
Kristin Fisher
We've got one more question before we go. And Andy, this one is from MIA in Brooklyn, United States. She emailed us to ask. Ask. I'm wondering if you and your experts think that the images of the Earth that Artemis is producing or will produce could lead to a reinvigoration of the global environmental movement for a planet facing multiple crises, a 21st century version of what happened after the first image of Earth from space was seen half a century ago. I'm very much hoping that this will be the case. Andy, do you think it'll be the case?
- [40:02]
BBC Announcer
Yeah, it's interesting. I actually put this comparison on socials yesterday and it went pretty wild. You know, I showed that original blue marble image, the new hello world image, and you know, we think it is Earth but 50 years apart. What has actually changed in that time? That was the first time we were able to look back at ourselves. We're now able to look back at ourselves again. I'm sure Timolitas from space, you know, you can't see borders and the world looks united, but it does look fragile. And so, you know, in the current era of division and a climate crisis, I think that perspective is as valid now as it was, you know, back in the 1960s.
- [40:42]
Maggie Adairin
I hope it makes just as much impact as the Earthrise did.
- [40:46]
Tim Peake
I think it will. I think we're going to be, you know, talking for a long time about these images from the Artemis mission. And thank you so much for joining us, Andy, and for bringing your expertise to the podcast.
- [40:57]
BBC Announcer
Thank you for having me on.
- [40:59]
Maggie Adairin
Well, that's all we've got time for today, but thank you again, Kristin, for joining us and hopefully speak to you again tomorrow.
- [41:05]
Kristin Fisher
I know it's the big day Flyby, one of the days we've all been waiting for. Excited to talk to you guys then.
- [41:11]
BBC Announcer
Bye bye.
- [41:15]
Maggie Adairin
And as a reminder for this mission, we're doing an episode every day, so do follow us or subscribe to 13min so you'll never miss an episode. But that's it for today. So goodbye from me, Maggie Adaron and
- [41:26]
Tim Peake
from me, Tim Peak. The producers are Alex Mansfield and Sophie Ormiston and the series editor is Martin Smith.
- [41:36]
Maggie Adairin
Thanks to Hans Zimmer and Christian Lundberg at Bleeding Fingers. Music for our cleaning Music.
- [41:47]
Tim Peake
13 minutes presents Artemis 2 is a BBC audio science production for the BBC World Service.
- [42:13]
BBC Announcer
Foreign.
- [42:19]
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