Blunt Wisdom From the World’s Top Executive Coach (#221)

Summary

Podcast Summary: 3 Takeaways - Episode #221: Blunt Wisdom From the World’s Top Executive Coach

Host: Lynn Thoman
Guest: Marshall Goldsmith
Release Date: October 29, 2024

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Introduction

In episode #221 of 3 Takeaways, host Lynn Thoman engages in a profound conversation with Marshall Goldsmith, widely recognized as the world's leading executive coach. Goldsmith, founder of the 100 Coaches organization and a New York Times bestselling author, has coached illustrious CEOs such as Jim Kim (former World Bank CEO), Alan Mullally (former Ford CEO), and Raj Shah (President of the Rockefeller Foundation). This episode delves into the nuances of success, the common pitfalls even top achievers encounter, and strategies for achieving both career success and personal fulfillment.

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The Essence of Coaching

Timestamp [02:10] - [03:43]

Marshall Goldsmith articulates his unique coaching philosophy, emphasizing stakeholder-centered coaching. Unlike traditional Socratic methods used by organizations like the International Coaching Federation (ICF), Goldsmith's approach focuses on feedback from those surrounding the individual. He states:

“In stakeholder-centered coaching, you learn from everyone around you.”
—Marshall Goldsmith [02:25]

Goldsmith differentiates his method from advisory roles, highlighting the importance of aligning coaching strategies with clients' specific needs, whether behavioral or strategic.

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Qualities of the Most Successful People

Timestamp [03:53] - [05:51]

When discussing the attributes that distinguish the great from the near great, Goldsmith underscores the significance of behavioral competencies over technical skills. He notes:

“Listening is definitely one of those qualities. And it is one of those qualities. It does separate the great from the near great.”
—Marshall Goldsmith [04:44]

Goldsmith emphasizes the continuous pursuit of self-improvement through asking for input, active listening, and maintaining humility. He introduces the concept that past achievements ("what got you here") may not suffice for future success ("what will get you there").

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Behavioral Mistakes of Highly Successful Individuals

Timestamp [05:12] - [08:24]

Goldsmith reveals a paradox among high achievers: their relentless drive to win can lead to interpersonal conflicts and unhappiness. He explains:

“Winners love winning. It's hard for winners not to win.”
—Marshall Goldsmith [06:39]

Using relatable scenarios, such as disagreements over restaurant choices or dismissing a partner’s tough day, Goldsmith illustrates how the compulsion to "win" often sabotages relationships and personal fulfillment.

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Insights from "What Got You Here Won't Get You There"

Timestamp [08:24] - [10:08]

Goldsmith discusses the core message of his renowned book, which contemplates advice one might give to their younger self. He outlines three pivotal themes derived from interviews with elderly individuals reflecting on life:

1. Be Happy Now:

   “Be happy when. Well, when is that old person learning point from old people? I got so busy chasing what I did not have, I could not see what I did have at almost everything.”
   —Marshall Goldsmith [09:10]

2. Value Relationships Over Success:
   Friends and family often suffer as individuals climb corporate ladders, leading to neglected personal connections.

3. Pursue Your Dreams Without Delay:
   Encourage taking risks and pursuing passions early, as the likelihood diminishes with age.

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The Philosophy of "Life is Good"

Timestamp [10:08] - [13:36]

Goldsmith shares the personal mantra behind his email sign-off, "Life is good," explaining it serves as a daily reminder of gratitude, comparing his current blessings to past hardships. He further explores the Buddhist philosophy embedded in his favorite movie, The Wizard of Oz, illustrating that fulfillment comes from within:

“Dorothy is looking for this place out there, Oz, this beautiful place, Oz, which she realized at the end, it's not out there, it's in here.”
—Marshall Goldsmith [13:00]

This segment emphasizes mindfulness and the importance of finding happiness in the present moment rather than chasing external achievements.

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Stories Illustrating Core Principles

Timestamp [13:57] - [17:02]

Goldsmith recounts impactful stories from his book The Earned Life that encapsulate his teachings:

1. The Husband and Wife Weekend Story:
   Illustrates the importance of acknowledging and appreciating present behaviors over dwelling on past mistakes.

2. The Golfer and the Beer Can:
   A metaphor from the Bhagavad Gita about focusing on the present shot rather than external distractions or past outcomes. Goldsmith interprets it as:

   “Hit the shot in front of you. You can't change the past. Make the best of it. It is what it is.”
   —Marshall Goldsmith [16:00]

3. The Marshmallow Study Critique:
   Challenges the overemphasis on delayed gratification by highlighting the potential for perpetual postponement, advocating for balanced decision-making.

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Personal Reflections and Advice

Timestamp [17:02] - [22:09]

Goldsmith shares transformative lessons learned from working with top executives:

“Nobody gives a pass in life. Every day you wake up and start over.”
—Marshall Goldsmith [19:40]

He underscores the humanity of successful individuals, reminding listeners that no level of achievement exempts one from personal struggles and the need for continuous self-improvement.

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Marshall Goldsmith’s Three Takeaways

Timestamp [20:23] - [22:09]

Concluding the episode, Goldsmith presents three actionable takeaways for personal and professional growth:

1. Ask How You Can Be Better:

   “Get in the habit of asking a question. How can I be a better...?”
   —Marshall Goldsmith [20:23]

2. Embrace Feedforward:
   Seek constructive input without becoming defensive. Treat feedback as a gift and focus on actionable improvements.

3. Daily Self-Evaluation:
   Implement daily questions to assess progress in:

   • Setting and pursuing clear goals
   • Finding personal happiness and meaning
   • Building and nurturing positive relationships
   • Being fully engaged and present in life

   Goldsmith encourages a responsible and proactive approach to personal development:

   “You take responsibility for one person. You know who that person is.”
   —Marshall Goldsmith [22:06]

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Conclusion

Marshall Goldsmith imparts valuable wisdom on achieving lasting success and fulfillment. By focusing on behavioral change, practicing gratitude, fostering meaningful relationships, and maintaining present-moment awareness, listeners are equipped with strategies to enhance both their professional trajectories and personal lives. This episode of 3 Takeaways serves as a compelling guide for anyone striving to understand and navigate the complexities of success and happiness.

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Notable Quotes:

• Marshall Goldsmith [04:44]: “Listening is definitely one of those qualities. And it is one of those qualities. It does separate the great from the near great.”

• Marshall Goldsmith [06:39]: “Winners love winning. It's hard for winners not to win.”

• Marshall Goldsmith [09:10]: “Be happy when. Well, when is that old person learning point from old people? I got so busy chasing what I did not have, I could not see what I did have at almost everything.”

• Marshall Goldsmith [13:00]: “Dorothy is looking for this place out there, Oz, this beautiful place, Oz, which she realized at the end, it's not out there, it's in here.”

• Marshall Goldsmith [20:23]: “Get in the habit of asking a question. How can I be a better...?”

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This comprehensive summary captures the essence of the conversation between Lynn Thoman and Marshall Goldsmith, providing actionable insights and highlighting the profound lessons shared during the episode.

Transcript

[Lynne Thoman]

Western culture is all about achievement and success. What are the most common mistakes that people make as they strive to be successful? And does achievement and success bring fulfillment? Hi everyone, I'm Lynne Thoman and this is three Takeaways. On three Takeaways, I talk with some of the world's best thinkers, business leaders, writers, politicians, newsmakers and scientists. Each episode ends with three key takeaways to help us understand the world and maybe even ourselves a little better. Today I'm excited to be with Marshall Goldsmith. He's an executive coach and founder of the 100 coaches, as well as a New York Times bestselling author. He is commonly called the number one executive coach in the world. The people he's coached include the most famous CEOs, such as former World Bank CEO Jim Kim, former Ford CEO Alan Mullally, and Rockefeller Foundation President Raj Shah. Both former Ford CEO Alan Mullally and Rockefeller foundation president Raj Shah have been guests on three Takeaways during COVID As Marshall continued working with very successful people, he increasingly found that even the highest achievers needed help finding fulfillment. So inspired by the lives of his coaching clients and by his own experience, he wrote his most recent book, which is wonderful, the Earned Life about fulfillment. I'm excited to find out the common mistakes that even very successful people make in their careers and in their lives and how we can all be more successful in both our careers and in our lives. Welcome Marshall, and thanks so much for joining three Takeaways today.

[Marshall Goldsmith]

Very happy to be here. Thank you so much for inviting me.

[Lynne Thoman]

It is my pleasure. Marshall. Let's start by talking about coaching. What can a good coach do?

[Marshall Goldsmith]

Well, it depends. This is a very good question because it depends upon the type of coach my mission is. I help successful leaders achieve positive long term change in their behavior. I invented a concept called stakeholder centered coaching. And in stakeholder center coaching, you learn from everyone around you. Other coaches use very different approaches. For example, the traditional ICF Coach International Coaching Federation uses a more Socratic approach to coaching, which is good too. That's more of a figure out what's going on inside you and mine is more learned from everyone around you. Or both can be fine. Some people are more advisors. And again, I don't quibble over the definition of the word coach like my friend David Allen. He's the world's expert on personal productivity. Well, if you need advice on, for example, how to get organized, I'm not a good person to help you. He is. So I think, you know, different people do different things and the Key is as a client, you might want to have someone help them someday. What do you need? What do you need? And really get somebody who's geared at, aimed at helping you achieve your specific issues. For me, if your issue is behavioral and you want to change and you're going to be supported by your organization for changing, then what I do is great. If your issue is strategic, it's a waste of time if you're going in the wrong direction. My coaching will only help you get there faster.

[Lynne Thoman]

Marshall, what are the qualities of the most successful people? What is the single skill that separates the great from the near great?

[Marshall Goldsmith]

Well, there are many qualities that I've done an expert on. So I'm going to restrict my answer to areas where I may know a little bit. For example, I'm not an expert on strategy or larger vision and all that. And those are very important things, but I'm not an expert on those. My area is really helping people achieve behavioral change. And that is the ability to ask for input, listen, learn, follow up and grow on a regular basis as opposed to coaching. My most famous book is called what got you here won't get you there. And it's that ability, like you said, the near great to the great. Well, now you say no. What separates great yesterday from great tomorrow? Well, one of those is great yesterday I got here great tomorrow is. I think it's going to get me to the future. It may not.

[Lynne Thoman]

Interesting. I thought you were going to say a quality like listening.

[Marshall Goldsmith]

Listening is definitely one of those qualities. And it is one of those qualities. It does separate the great from the near great. They're all related, though. It's listening, it's asking, it's being open. It's the whole idea of I'm not perfect.

[Lynne Thoman]

Marshall, I was fascinated by your insight that the higher you go, the more likely your mistakes are to be behavioral. Can you talk about that?

[Marshall Goldsmith]

Yes, because what happens is when you're at a younger position, like a young engineer, young finance person, you do really need to be technically competent. That's what you get paid for. But every time you get promoted, that technical competence becomes less and less important. You can't rely on technical expertise more and more. You have to be a leader. You have to focus on behavior, you have to focus on people. And it's not about you being the expert, it's about them being the expert. It's not about you being the winner, it's about them being the winner. This is a very difficult transition to make. It's hard to make that transition Between I'm smart, I'm wonderful, I'm special, and you're smart, you're wonderful, you're special.

[Lynne Thoman]

It's so interesting to me that when we think about very successful people, we rarely associate their success with technical skills or brain power. I love your example of who people would rather have as a chief financial officer. The moderately good accountant who is great with people outside the firm and skilled at managing very smart people, or the brilliant accountant who's inept with outsiders and alienates all these smart people under him.

[Marshall Goldsmith]

Excellent example. That brilliant accountant is not a bad person. They should just be an accountant. As long as they're an accountant, they're great. But they shouldn't be in a leadership role. That's not what they're getting paid for.

[Lynne Thoman]

What do you see as the most common mistakes that people make?

[Marshall Goldsmith]

I was interviewed in the Harvard Business Review and asked a question. What is the number one problem of all successful people you've ever coached? And my answer was very simple. Winning too much. What's that mean? If it's important, we want to win. If it's meaningful, we want to win. If it's critical, we want to win. If it's trivial, we want to win. If it's not worth it, we want to win anyway. Winners love winning. I'm going to give you an example of winning too much, and I'm going to bet almost all of our listeners have failed. Are you ready, listener? You want to go to dinner at Restaurant X. Your husband, wife, partner, significant other wants to go to dinner at Restaurant Y. You have a heated argument. You go to restaurant why? The food tastes awful and the service is terrible. Option A, you could critique the food, point out our partner was wrong, and this mistake could have been avoided if you listened to me, me, me. Option B, shut up, eat the dumb food, try to enjoy it, and have a nice night. What would I do? What should I do? Almost all my clients, what would I do? Or critique the food. What should I do? Shut up. It's hard for winners not to win. I'll give you another example. You have a hard day at work. You come home, your husband, wife, or partner is there, and the other person says, I had a hard day today. I had such a hard day. If we're not careful, we reply, you had a hard day. You had a hard day. Do you have any idea what I had to put up with today? Do you think you had a hard day? We're so competitive. We had to prove we're more miserable than the people we live With I gave this example to my class at the Dartmouth Tuck School. A young man raised his hand. He said, I did that last week. I asked him what happened. He said, my wife looked at me and said, honey, you just think you've had a hard day. It is not over.

[Lynne Thoman]

That is wonderful. Marshall, I love the start of your book. What got you here won't get you there. Imagining that you're 95 years old and about to die. And just before you take your last breath, you're given a gift. The ability to travel back in time to give advice to yourself when you are younger. What advice would you now as the wise and successful you that you are now have for the young you?

[Marshall Goldsmith]

Three themes come up when people are interviewed around the world. Old people facing death. Theme one, be happy now. Not next week, not next month, not the great western disease. I'll happy be happy when. When I get the money, status, BMW. I'll be happy when. Well, when is that old person learning point from old people? I got so busy chasing what I did not have, I could not see what I did have at almost everything. Learning point two, friends and family don't get so busy climbing the ladder of success we forget the people that love us. And number three, if you have a dream, go for it. If you don't go for it when you're 50, you probably won't when you're 80. And business advice isn't much different. Number one, life is short. Have fun. You don't like what you're doing at work, I do your best. But eventually, if it doesn't work out, get some play, get out of there goes life. Too short. Number two, do whatever you can do to help people. The main reason to help people has nothing to do with money, status or getting ahead. The main reason help people is much deeper. The 95 year old you will be proud of you because you did and disappointed if you don't. And the final advice is go for it. World's changing. Do what you think is right. You may not win. At least you tried. Old people, we seldom regret the risks we take and fail. We usually regret the risks we fail to take. So those are the major themes that come up.

[Lynne Thoman]

Marshall, you sign off every email that you've ever sent me with life is good. Why?

[Marshall Goldsmith]

It's a reminder to me. Really. The message isn't to you as much as a reminder to myself. One of the things I try to do every day is declare victory. I mean, look, I won. I have a picture. It's in my book. Triggers at home in my office and it's of 1984 and me kneeling on the ground in Africa during the great Famine campaign. There's a large line of kids and a woman is measuring their arms. And if their arms are too big, they don't get any food, they're not hungry enough, their arms is too little, they don't get any food, they're going to die anyway. Their arms in the middle, they got food in the picture. I'm looking at the camera and I'm trying to send the me of today a message from that me of the past. Be grateful for what you have. Really? How many. What are your problems today? What are you complaining about? What are you whining about? You know, be grateful for what you have. So at life as good as I try to remind myself every day is compared to what? Yeah, compared to what we have. So I have so many blessings that, you know, I should be grateful every day.

[Lynne Thoman]

And one of your other sayings is be happy now and let it go. What does that mean to you?

[Marshall Goldsmith]

Well, a couple of things. One is the great Western myth. I'll be happy when. When I get the money. Status, BMW win. I'm a Buddhist. The Buddhist term for this called the hungry ghost. The hungry ghost is always eating, but never full well, that's the disease of the West. So be happy now means you're not going to find it next week or next year. It's now, it's here and then, you know, let it go. One of the best pieces of advice I ever give people is this. Forgive other people for being who they are and forgive yourself for expecting them to be somebody else. Let me give an example. I want everyone listening. I want you to think of someone makes you feel bad, guilty, angry and crazy. Okay, can you just come up with one? Yeah. I've got a question. How much sleep is that person losing over you tonight? You know what the answer is? Almost always.

[Lynne Thoman]

What?

[Marshall Goldsmith]

Zero.

[Lynne Thoman]

Zero.

[Marshall Goldsmith]

Who is being punished here?

[Lynne Thoman]

You are.

[Marshall Goldsmith]

And who is doing the punishing?

[Lynne Thoman]

You are.

[Marshall Goldsmith]

You don't have to like that person or respect that person or agree with that person. Don't let them make you miserable. And until you forgive people, you don't forgive people for their needs. Forgive people for your needs.

[Lynne Thoman]

Marshall, you basically believe that happiness doesn't come from the past or the future. It comes from now. Is that right?

[Marshall Goldsmith]

And here my favorite movie is actually. People don't know this. A Buddhist movie? Yeah. Over the Rainbow. It's the wizard of Oz. The wizard of Oz. The author was a Buddhist. And the whole story is a Buddhist metaphor. Dorothy is looking for this place out there, Oz, this beautiful place, Oz, which she realized at the end, it's not out there, it's in here. If you, and if you can't find it here, guess what? You're not going to find it so interesting.

[Lynne Thoman]

I would not have guessed that the wizard of Oz was a Buddhist or inspired by Buddhism or that it was your favorite movie. There are a few stories that you tell in your books that are my favorites. One is about the husband and wife who are just returning from a great weekend. Can you tell that story?

[Marshall Goldsmith]

Yeah, it's actually the story. I don't mention the names of people when the books were written, but there was a story that was done by a friend of mine, Mark Rider, who's a co author of my books. And he and his wife and you know, they had a great weekend with the kids and they're driving home and she was talking about the great weekend and so happy. And then she said, yeah, it's just too bad you weren't that way for the whole time they were growing up. And she starts in on him about his past and he said, look, I'm sorry for what I did then, but that person's not in the car right now. I worked very hard to become a better person and I can't change the past. I have apologized for it, but I'm not that person, you know. And his wife said, you're right, I'm sorry. I'm sorry you're not that person. You've made a lot of effort to improve and you don't need me to hammer things you've done wrong in the past. We've all made mistakes in the past, including me. I really appreciate what you do now.

[Lynne Thoman]

I love that story. Another story I really like is the one about the golfer and the beer can.

[Marshall Goldsmith]

I love that story. Now that is a very interesting story that I've also studied Hindu philosophy and that story comes a lot from the Bhagavad Gita, which is the world's oldest poem. So none of stuff I teach is new. This is all, you know, old thousands of year old stuff. Right. But in the story there's a. The golfer is at the little country club and he has a chance to win the club championship. He's all excited. He's on the last hole. He hits the drive. It looks perfect. In front of him, there've been this noisy group of people drinking. Very annoying. Blocks it out of his mind. The shot looks perfect. All of A sudden, it goes off into the rough. What happened? He walks toward the ball. What does he see? A beer can. Idiots in front of him have left a beer can on the fairway. He is angry. What does the golfer need to do? Stop. Breathe. Forget about the drive. Forget about the beer can. Forget about winning the club championship. Forget about all of that stuff. Breathe. Come up with a strategy. Then you got one goal. Hit the shot in front of you. That's it. Hit the shot in front of you. Well, that's a great metaphor for life. Hit the shot in front of you. You can't change the past. The Bhagavad Gita is a fascinating epic. And in the story, the protagonist has two choices, bad and worse. And he's going on and on about how awful this is. What's the message? Make a decision and live with it. Make the best of it. It is what it is. Just make the best of it. Well, that's a great way to look at life. It is what it is. The ball is where it is. Hit the shot. Hit the shot in front of you. Now there's another great thing about achievement I like in my book, the Earned Life. One of my favorite parts of the book is a marshmallow study.

[Lynne Thoman]

I was just going to ask you that.

[Marshall Goldsmith]

I love that part. So, hey, it's a really good story about achievement. You mentioned this because every self help book, especially the same, here's how you can achieve more. And they all focus on delayed gratification, you know, and their message, delayed gratification is good. This will help you work out more. It'll help you go on a diet. Oh, delayed gratification is good. Delayed gratification help you achieve more. Good, good, good. And a lot of this is this idea of the marshmallow research. At Stanford, they did a study with kids and give a kid one marshmallow. I tell a kid, you eat one, you get one. Eat it now you get one. But if you wait, oh, 15 minutes, you get two. Well, allegedly they did this longitudinal research. It shows the kids that ate one are growing up losers. Kids that eat two grow up, be successful. Whether that happened or not, I don't know. But allegedly that's what happened. Maybe it's true, who cares? But in any case, the message is the same. Delayed gratification is good. But there's one problem with the research. They didn't take the kid that had two marshmallows. Say kid, wait a little more. Three, wait some more. Four, five, ten, a hundred, a thousand. And where does the Story end. An old man waiting to die, sitting in a room surrounded by thousands of uneaten marshmallows. Sometimes in life, you gotta eat the marshmallow. Now, Jack Welch was a famous CEO of ge, and one of my good friends was a friend of his, and he had triple bypass surgery. Jack Welch had triple bypass surgery, you know, many years ago. And he thought he might die. Now, Jack Welch loved good wine, has this wine cellar filled with great wine. So my friend says, well, Jack, what'd you learn about life when you had triple bypass surgery? What was that? One thing was really deep, you know what he said? Why am I drinking the damn cheap wine every night? Jack Welch has a great wine cellar. Oh, he's rich. He's rich. He's got this great wine cells. Fancy. What? Every night he's drinking cheap wine, waiting for the wine in the wine cellar to appreciate in value. He's going, what? I. What is wrong with me? I'm waiting for the white. What? I'm waiting for what? What is wrong with me? You know what he said? He made one commitment after he almost died.

[Lynne Thoman]

What was that?

[Marshall Goldsmith]

No more cheap one. No more cheap one. I'm not doing that anymore.

[Lynne Thoman]

The people you work with, the CEOs, the founders, the billionaires, are all amazing successes. What did you learn working with them?

[Marshall Goldsmith]

What I learned working with them is nobody gets a pass in life. If you read the bios of all those people that I work with, you think they're like the second coming of God. They're just humans like everybody else. Nobody gives a pass in life. Every day you wake up and start over. And I don't feel sorry for these people. They're great people and everything, but they're humans. They got parents with Alzheimer's disease just like everybody else. They get divorces. They're humans. You don't stop being a human being just because you're, quote, successful or achieve a lot. You're still just a human.

[Lynne Thoman]

Marshall, what are the three takeaways you would like to leave the audience with today?

[Marshall Goldsmith]

Okay, number one is get in the habit of asking a question. How can I be a better. Not just at work, at home. How can I be a better husband, wife, partner? How can I be a better father, better mother? How can I be a better son, a better daughter? Ask for people around you that question. All the great people I've coached, they all ask people, how can I be better? They don't pretend to be perfect. Number two is something I teach called feed forward. Learn to ask for input. Shut up. Listen and thank people and fight the urge to talk. If people give you ideas to try to help you, treat it like a gift. Don't yell at them, argue with them, put them down, critique the gift. Just shut up and never promise to do everything. Just do what you can. And then finally, it's daily questions. I'll give everyone six questions they can ask themselves every day. If you did nothing but ask these six questions every day, you're going to have a better life. And they all begin with the same phrase. Did I do my best to all you can do is do your best every day. Did I do my best to, Number one, set clear goals? Number two, did I make progress toward achieving my goals instead of waiting for the world to do it for us? Did I do it? Number three, very important. Did I do my best to be happy? Number four, did I do my best to find meaning rather than waiting for the world to give us meaning? Did I find meaning myself? Did I do my best to build positive relationships instead of waiting for everyone to love me? How did I do about loving them? And then finally, did I do my best to be fully engaged and present in life 1 to 10 scale, evaluate yourself every day? Did you do these things? And guess what? You started having a better life. You know why?

[Lynne Thoman]

Why?

[Marshall Goldsmith]

You take responsibility for one person. You know who that person is.

[Lynne Thoman]

Yourself. Thank you Marshall. This has been wonderful. I really enjoyed your books.

[Marshall Goldsmith]

Well, thank you so much. I hope you enjoyed our little time together. And as I've grown old, my mission life is simpler. I just want to help people have a little bit better life. So maybe if some of the people listening have a little better life based on anything I said, this is a very, very good use of my time and thank you for giving me the opportunity to do it.

[Lynne Thoman]

If you're enjoying the podcast, and I really hope you are, please review us on Apple Podcasts or Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. It really helps get the word out. If you're interested, you can also sign up for the Three Takeaways newsletter at3takeaways.com where you can also listen to previous episodes. You can also follow us on LinkedIn, X Instagram and Facebook. I'm Lynn Thoman and this is three Takeaways. Thanks for listening.