Goodbye Baby Boom—Hello Population Bust: How a 60% Drop Could Change Everything (#257)

Summary

3 Takeaways Podcast Summary

Episode: Goodbye Baby Boom—Hello Population Bust: How a 60% Drop Could Change Everything (#257)
Host: Lynn Thoman
Guest: Mike Jurisso, Associate Professor at the University of Texas at Austin and Co-author of After the Spike
Release Date: July 8, 2025

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Introduction: The Impending Population Decline

The episode begins with Lynn Thoman introducing the pressing issue of declining birth rates worldwide. She poses critical questions about whether the global population will stabilize at a smaller size or continue to plummet as each successive generation becomes smaller than the last. This sets the stage for an in-depth discussion with Mike Jurisso, an expert on population dynamics.

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The Status Quo: A Future of Shrinking Populations

Mike Jurisso outlines the most probable scenario for the global population trajectory:

• Continuous Decline: Contrary to the notion of a plateau, Jurisso explains that once population peaks, it is expected to decline steadily across generations. He states, “The status quo future… is a future where the global population shrinks decade by decade, generation by generation” (01:18).

• Exponential Decline: He emphasizes the mathematical symmetry between exponential growth and decline, highlighting that a sustained global birth rate of 1.5 could result in a 60% population decrease over a century (02:14).

• Real-World Examples: Using China as an extreme case, Jurisso illustrates how low birth rates lead to rapid population decreases. With China’s total fertility rate at 1, he explains, a single generation could see the population cohort shrink from 100 to 25 individuals over two generations (02:55).

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Historical Context: From Overpopulation Fears to Current Decline

Jurisso provides a historical overview of population dynamics:

• Population Spike Origin: The dramatic increase from 2 billion to 8 billion was not due to higher birth rates but significantly lower death rates. Technological and medical advancements reduced mortality, especially among children (04:27).

• Declining Birth Rates: Despite fears of overpopulation in the past, birth rates have been on a steady decline for centuries. Jurisso notes, “It wasn't from climbing birth rates. And in fact, over this whole time, birth rates have been falling” (05:28).

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Global Perspectives: Regions Leading the Decline

The conversation shifts to specific regions experiencing significant population declines:

• Developed Countries: Countries like Japan, South Korea, and several European nations have maintained birth rates below the replacement level for extended periods. South Korea’s birth rate stands at a staggering 0.7, meaning a grandparents’ generation of 100 could lead to only 15 children in the next generation (05:40).

• Middle-Income Countries: Even nations like Brazil and Mexico exhibit birth rates lower than the United States, challenging the notion that only the richest countries face depopulation (06:59).

• Sub-Saharan Africa: Currently the only high-fertility region, Sub-Saharan Africa has seen a decline from approximately six children per woman in 1990 to around four today. Although still above replacement rates, projections indicate continued declines as the region develops (07:38).

• United States as an Outlier: The US maintains a birth rate of 1.6, slightly below the replacement level but sustained longer than in Europe. Jurisso describes it as "a bit of an outlier" due to its prolonged period of relatively higher birth rates before a significant decline post-Great Recession (08:38).

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Government Interventions: Attempts to Reverse Low Birth Rates

Addressing policy responses, Jurisso discusses various strategies employed by governments:

• Financial Incentives: Tax credits, tax breaks per child, and direct financial support aim to alleviate the economic burdens of raising children (09:33).

• Childcare Support: Subsidized or fully provided childcare services, alongside mandated paid parental leave, are common measures to encourage higher birth rates.

• Effectiveness: While these policies can slightly boost birth rates, they have not succeeded in restoring them to replacement levels. Jurisso remarks, “None of these things makes a huge difference in birth rates” (10:35).

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Challenges in Increasing Birth Rates: Understanding the Root Causes

Jurisso highlights the complexity of reversing declining fertility rates:

• Diverse Explanations: Factors such as the affordability of children, shifts in societal values regarding marriage and family, and improved access to contraception each play a role, but no single theory comprehensively explains the trend (10:40).

• Lack of Successful Models: There are no proven programs that have significantly boosted fertility rates, making it challenging to formulate effective policies.

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Timeline and Urgency: When Will the Decline Accelerate?

The discussion turns to the anticipated timeline of population decline:

• Impending Decline: Depending on projections, the onset of significant population decline could begin as early as the 2000s or as late as the 2080s (11:55).

• Why Act Now: Jurisso emphasizes the interconnectedness of societies, stating, “People are good for one another… Our lives on average, are better than the lives of people in decades and centuries past” (13:10). He argues that maintaining a stable or growing population ensures continued progress and societal well-being.

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Key Takeaways: Understanding and Addressing Depopulation

Mike Jurisso concludes with three essential takeaways:

1. Global Depopulation Is Inevitable: “The world is on a path to global depopulation… leading to a profoundly unfamiliar future” (13:16).

2. Interdependence of Humanity: “People are good for one another. We're lucky to live in a time when many other people have come before us to make the progress that we now enjoy” (13:16).

3. Proactive Measures Are Crucial: It’s imperative to:

   • Hope and Work Against Global Depopulation: Sustainable population levels are necessary.
   • Support Parenting and Caregiving: Enhance societal support structures.
   • Recognize the Value of a Large Population: Emphasize how a populous world benefits individual lives (13:16).

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Conclusion: Looking Forward

Lynn Thoman wraps up the episode by expressing appreciation for Mike Jurisso’s insights and encourages listeners to engage further through reviews and the podcast’s newsletter. The conversation underscores the importance of addressing population decline proactively to ensure a sustainable and prosperous future.

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Notable Quotes:

• Mike Jurisso (01:18): “The status quo future… is a future where the global population shrinks decade by decade, generation by generation.”

• Mike Jurisso (02:14): “A global average birth rate of 1.5… would lead to a population that shrinks 10% every decade, which would be two thirds every century.”

• Mike Jurisso (05:28): “It wasn't from climbing birth rates. And in fact, over this whole time, birth rates have been falling.”

• Mike Jurisso (10:35): “None of these things makes a huge difference in birth rates.”

• Mike Jurisso (13:16): “Number one, the world is on a path to global depopulation… Number two, people are good for one another… Number three, we should hope and work to bend our path away from global depopulation.”

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This episode of 3 Takeaways provides a comprehensive examination of the global population decline, its causes, implications, and the urgent need for effective strategies to mitigate its impact. Mike Jurisso’s expertise offers listeners a valuable perspective on one of the most significant demographic shifts of our time.

Transcript

[Lynn Thoman]

Birth rates have been falling around the world and soon global population will begin to shrink. When it does, will it spontaneously plateau at some smaller stable size or will it fall off a cliff as each generation is smaller than the previous generation? If depopulation happens, what are the consequences? Hi everyone, I'm Lynn Thom and this is three Takeaways. On three Takeaways, I talk with some of the world's best thinkers, business leaders, writers, politicians, newsmakers and scientists. Each episode ends with three key takeaways to help us understand the world and maybe even ourselves a little better. Today I'm excited to be with Mike Jurisso. Mike is an associate professor at the University of Texas at Austin and is the co author of the new book after the Spike. Welcome Mike, and thanks so much for joining three Takeaways today.

[Mike Jurisso]

Thank you. So glad to be here.

[Lynn Thoman]

It is my pleasure. Mike, what do you think is the most likely population future?

[Mike Jurisso]

The status quo future, given the sort of birth rates that we're seeing everywhere in the world today, and not just in the rich countries, but in middle income countries and low income countries, is a future where the global population shrinks decade by decade, generation by generation. And sometimes when, when we talk about slower population growth or peak population, you might get the wrong impression that what we mean is the population will grow, reach some level and then hang there. But that's not what we mean. What I mean is that after the peak, the population would decline each generation for as long as people looked around and decided for their lives that the right family size for them was on average something that was below two kids.

[Lynn Thoman]

And the depopulation that you see as our likely future is fairly dramatic. It's a 60 or 75% depopulation, is that right?

[Mike Jurisso]

Yes. Once depopulation begins, once we turn the corner past the peak and start shrinking, that could happen very fast. A global average birth rate of 1.5, which is similar to the US or Europe, would lead to a population that shrinks 10% every decade, decade, which would be two thirds every century. So very fast change, probably at a pace that it's hard to get our minds around since we're so used to living in this big populous world. And a growing world is all any of us have ever known or been a part of.

[Lynn Thoman]

Can you talk a little bit more about the math of exponential decline?

[Mike Jurisso]

I think something important here is that the math of exponential decline is the same as the math of exponential growth. And so because in the last hundred years the population has quadrupled, it makes sense that that exponential Process in reverse could create a decline that was just as fast. Here's an example that I think can give some context. China's birth rate today is one kid per two adult, one child for each woman. If you think about what that would mean going from one generation to the next, it would mean that, let's say a generation of 100 adults would have 50 children between them. So that's two adults, one kid each on average. And then those 50 children would have the next generation of 25 children. So over the course of two generations, a grandparents to a grandchild's generation, you have a population cohort size that goes from 100 people to 25 people. China is a pretty extreme example of low birth rates today. But even a population average birth rate of 1.4 like Europe, or 1.6 like the United States, or 1.8 like Latin America, can lead to similarly fast population decline.

[Lynn Thoman]

There used to be worries, it seems not so long ago, about overpopulation because the global population has increased so dramatically, as you said, from 2 billion to 8 billion. Can you talk about that population spike and what caused it?

[Mike Jurisso]

Surprisingly, the cause of that population spike was not that birth rates went up. It was that death rates went down. Population growth is the difference between the change in births and the change in deaths each year. What happened over the last couple hundred years was that we became very good at keeping one another alive and especially keeping children and infants alive. 200 years ago, something between a third and half of all children would have died before age 5. And through better nutrition, sanitation, through understanding a germ theory of disease, through eventually vaccinations, we've managed to do a wonderful job of helping kids survive. And so that change in survival, where those kids grew up to become adults and have families of their own, that's where the population growth of the last couple centuries came from. It wasn't from climbing birth rates. And in fact, over this whole time, birth rates have been falling.

[Lynn Thoman]

What are the countries now that you call the canaries in the coal mine? Those whose population is shrinking the most? Those with the lowest birth rates.

[Mike Jurisso]

The countries today with some of the lowest birth rates, you know, you've probably heard about, China has a very low birth rate, total fertility rate of 1. So again, that's one kid per two adults. China has been shrinking in population over the last couple of years. Now, it could be that with migration, a country with a birth rate below 2 wouldn't shrink. And so the United States is a country with a birth rate below 2 that because of migration, isn't shrinking in population size. Russia is shrinking though. Japan has had a low below replacement birth rate for a long time. South Korea has a birth rate of 0.7. That's a situation if for 100 people in a grandparents generation, there'd be something like 15 kids in a grandchildren's generation. And one of the things that we've learned from these countries that have had low birth rates for a very long time, including European countries, is that nothing yet tried by any government or any movement in these places has managed to bring birth rates back up to the replacement level after they've fallen substantially below it.

[Lynn Thoman]

So essentially you're describing all of the so called developed countries, the richer countries that have population shrinking. How about India and Africa?

[Mike Jurisso]

India, which was once the center of fears about overpopulation, especially in the late 1960s and 1970s, is today a place with below replacement birth rates, less than two kids for each two adults. So it is true that the richer countries have had lower birth rates for longer. But middle income countries like China now have very low birth rates. Brazil has a birth rate lower than the United States. Mexico has a birth rate lower than the United States. So this is not just a story of what's happening in the richest corners of the world. It's happening in rich countries, middle income countries, low income countries.

[Lynn Thoman]

What about Africa?

[Mike Jurisso]

Sub Saharan Africa in particular is the one region of the world in 2025 where birth rates are still substantially above replacement. Now, birth rates have been falling in Africa, it's just that they have been falling more slowly and not yet to the same low levels as elsewhere in the world. Most demographers who project out into the future think that African birth rates will continue to fall. So you know, in 1990, African birth rates would have been close to six children per woman. Today, sub Saharan African birth rates are closer to four children per woman. Many of us expect that birth rates will continue to fall as Africa follows paths towards development and more opportunities and better education that other countries have followed. And so I think we should expect African birth rates to continue to fall. But today it is the one high fertility region in the world.

[Lynn Thoman]

Can you talk more about what's going on with the US in terms of birth rates?

[Mike Jurisso]

The US is interesting. It's actually a bit of an outlier. So the US has a birth rate of 1.6 and most recent data, which is from 2024, it's a bit of an outlier in the sense that the US Birth rate has stayed higher for longer than in pure countries. In Europe, for example, so for many of the years between 1975 and 2008, the US birth rate was pretty close to 2. It wasn't quite 2, but it was pretty close there. And it hung there for a long time. And then since the Great Recession, birth rates in the US and in other places have fallen further.

[Lynn Thoman]

There are many countries where birth rates have been way below replacement value for many years. You talked about Japan and South Korea and Europe. What kinds of policies have governments tried and how did they work?

[Mike Jurisso]

Let me put aside sort of coercive policies that some governments have tried and focus for a minute on the sort of things that liberal democracies have tried to raise birth rates. That tends to boil down to some version of giving people money. So sometimes it's literally giving people money in terms of a tax credit or tax break per children. Sometimes it's giving services in kind, like providing subsidized or entirely socially provided childcare. Sometimes it's been mandates on businesses to fund paid parental leave. So these are the sorts of things that liberal democracies have tried. Some of these things move the needle a bit on birth rates. So making child care available and affordable seems to boost birth rates a little bit in the research. But none of these things makes a huge difference in birth rates. And, you know, we can see that because we've talked about all of these countries that have had low birth rates for a long time. They've tried these things. Birth rates remain low in these countries today.

[Lynn Thoman]

Mike, what do you think is needed to achieve higher birth rates?

[Mike Jurisso]

That turns out to be a pretty difficult question to answer with granularity. And part of the reason for that is that we don't have good examples of programs that have worked to boost fertility to high levels. And we, at some level, are still working to understand what are the causes of low fertility in the first place. Everyone has their pet theory about why fertility is low, but those theories don't often overlap. Well, so you'll hear people say that the reason people aren't having kids is that kids aren't affordable anymore, or that the reason people aren't having kids is that, you know, we've turned our back on the traditions of marriage and religion that would otherwise guide us home to family life, or that the reason that birth rates are low is that people finally have good access to contraception. But none of those explanations fits all or even most of the facts. And yet we could go through those one by one. But they really don't explain things, nor does any other particular explanation.

[Lynn Thoman]

Let's talk about the timing. When do you think population will dramatically decline? Essentially fall off a cliff? And if it's far away, why should we care now?

[Mike Jurisso]

The timeline before the decline starts is a few decades. Maybe the 1880s according to the UN projections, maybe the 2000s according to other projections that are out there. And once that decline happens, it could be just as swift as the surge in population over the last century. The reason that we should care about this is that at some level, people are good for one another. We all get to enjoy better lives today than people did in the past because we live in a time when there's many other people around. The reason that we have pain medicine and shoes on our feet and glasses to correct our vision and gene therapies and parliamentary democracies and all of this advance that we get to enjoy and benefit from today is that we get to live in a time after many other people have lived. It's the same sun overhead, it's the same dirt underneath our feet. The reason that we get to live better lives today than people 200 years ago is that we know better what to do with these things. All of those pieces of the puzzle of progress and came from people, came from other people inventing and refining and passing on knowledge.

[Lynn Thoman]

Mike, what are the three takeaways you'd like to leave the audience with today?

[Mike Jurisso]

Number one, the world is on a path to global depopulation. That's the status quo future, given the sort of birth rates that are now common in most of the world. So what feels normal today? Families that average out to a birth rate of, say, 1.6 would lead to a profoundly unfamiliar future. The second takeaway is that people are good for one another. We're lucky to get to live in a world with a lot of other people in it. We're lucky to get to live in a time when many other people have come before us to make the progress that we now enjoy. Our lives on average, are better than the lives of people in decades and centuries past. And that's not just because time marched forward. It happened because in recent centuries there have been a lot of people making that progress. The third takeaway in putting those first two together is we should hope and work to bend our path away from global depopulation. That's not saying that never ending population growth would be good. That wouldn't be sustainable. But endless depopulation isn't sustainable either. It's not something to welcome. We have some time, decades before we turn the corner and begin shrinking. Which means this is important, but it's not a crisis, and we should be using that time to lear learn how to better support parenting and caregiving and build a broader recognition of the fact that living in a big world makes life better for each of us.

[Lynn Thoman]

Mike, this has been great. I really enjoyed your book after the Spike. Thank you, thank you. If you're enjoying the podcast, and I really hope you are, please review us on Apple Podcasts or Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. It really helps get the word out. If you're interested, you can also sign up for the Three Takeaways newsletter at 3takeaways.com, where you can also listen to previous episodes. You can also follow us on LinkedIn, X Instagram, and Facebook. I'm Lynne Thoman and this is three Takeaways. Thanks for listening.