A (4:58)

What are, in your opinion, some unforgettable stories and why are they so powerful? What are the most powerful stories that you have seen?

B (5:11)

So for movies, I had the great fortune of working with Sally Field and I pitched that she should play Maura Tierney's mother on er because Maura's character has an alcohol substance problem. And it's not uncommon that a parent might have bipolar disorder. So we gave that disorder to Sally. And I was standing with her one night when we were shooting and she said, why did you want me to come? And I said, well, you know, when I became a writer, you were the first person I thought of. And she said, why? Because you watched Gidget or Flying Nun when you were a child? And I said, no, because I saw you and Norma Ray stand on the table and hold the sign and stand up to what was going on in the factory, the sewing and the manufacturing of fabric and say, union and how you defended your mother. And I just said, oh my gosh, I want to work with someone like that. I want to tell a story like that. And so when I saw movies that moved me, like Norma Rae or old movies that I watched as a kid about the war and what happens after the war, like the best years of our lives, it really, like ignited me. And I think it's because they're real. But for myself, it's been films that have been about the outsider, like Norma Rae or folks who've had hiv. When I was young, Growing up and their struggle that motivated me and have stayed with me. And that's what I try to write about as well.

A (6:51)

And what makes one of those outstanding movies or shows, what is it that makes them so powerful?

B (7:00)

Well, first and foremost, it's the relatability. It's like, we understand Sally as Norma Ray. We understand the position she's in. And her husband, Beau Bridges, is, like, supportive, but he's not standing on the table with her. Her mother is being treated horribly. It's not well. And so we're for her. We love fighters for justice. So I think what makes these films for me stand out are the social justice that's embedded in them without being preachy. But it's just part of the fabric of these movies. Like a movie like the Best Years of Our Lives. It's showing you what's happening with these World War II vets. Coming home. And one of them has lost his hands, actually. Harold Russell, he won the Oscar for that. And you see his struggle in a way that feels so real. Well, it was real for him, of course, but the other actors in it, Frederick March, Myrtle Lloyd, all of them really, like, capture the struggle after that. Yes, there was jubilation after World War II, and we won and beat the Nazis. But there are also a lot of terrible things to deal with at home, just like what's happened again with Vietnam. And then we can look at a film called Coming Home with Jane Fonda, Bruce Dern and Jon Voight. Again, another great film about that struggle of a Vietnam vet. Coming home and not being seen. I guess, really what makes these movies resonate for me, and I think for the audience, it's about people being seen, people who haven't been seen, and they become seen. And we all want to be seen. We all want to be heard.

A (8:47)

And how do you make that compelling? How do you make a story compelling?

B (8:53)

Well, you hire the best actors possible, first of all, because don't scrimp on the actors and don't scrimp on the script. Get the best actors to tell the story. I've been so lucky because I've always demanded to have the best actors. And the best actors are people who can really bring on that character that we can relate to. Why is Clooney so popular? Why is Mariska so popular? We relate to them. There's something about them, some magic that we feel comfortable with them. And then you just have to be as honest as you can in your storytelling. We've all been on the line. We've all had to prove ourselves. So I'm always thinking about the sociological, anthropological, psychological elements that we're all human beings, we all share these moments, and if we can make them honest and relatable with great actors, then we're way far down the road of getting something really good.

A (9:54)

Neil, how do you bring stories to life and make them emotionally compelling for people? I mean, your stories have ranged from ER to Designated Survivor with Kiefer Sutherland as the president. How do you make your stories emotionally compelling?

B (10:14)

I ask myself, what is their drive for Kiefer's character? I asked myself, because I only did year three on Netflix, not the first two on abc, can a man of ethics and dignity run for president and maintain his ethical stance? And I'm going to put him through Dante's Inferno, and every week, every episode, give him a bigger and bigger challenge and see if he can do it. And so the answer was, a man of his ethics couldn't because he got caught up in running for president. And in the end, he can, because he. He makes decisions that are maybe not in his best interest. And so I look at what is this character's journey? And for him, it was, you know, he was the head of HUD and he becomes president and he's not prepared. He wasn't a politician. So can he maintain his dignity and his ethics and. No, not always. He's disappointing people, his daughter, others. And in the end, yes, it is tv. And it's like, I didn't want to be a nihilist. So, yes, he did do the right thing. Sometimes people don't in the end. But I think it's important to have hope. So I look to develop characters that interest me, and I haven't gone wrong in the sense that if I think the story's amazing or shocking or it's, like, captivating, I've been lucky. It has. They have been, in general, for the audience. And that's, I think, been helpful to me not to worry about pandering, like, I'm going to teach you or I'm going to do this. It's like, how does this mother cope with a child that she has to watch die in front of her? No way around it. No hope, no miracles. None have ever been reported. How does she live this life? That's a character I want to see. That's what life is about. Then I have compassion for what she did. I might disagree with her. I might say, hey, she should go to jail. But I have the other side saying she spared her child even more suffering and pain. That's what life is about. Right, Lynn? It's like. It's not easy.

A (12:41)

Not easy. Neil, let's talk more about plot lines. How do you think about plot lines? What are the elements of plot lines that keep your audience engaged and anticipating what will happen?

B (12:55)

Well, I like to engage them, and then they're surprised when it doesn't go their way. But it's not jumping the shark. It's not Dux Machina. It's, oh, of course, that turn. Of course, I didn't see that coming. But it's because I was with that character and I believed what they were believing. I believe that person who was lying. How many times have we been lied to in our lives by people we're close to? It happens. So in plot, I'm more interested in. So we talk a lot about procedurals and characters. So I've done procedurals. ER is a medical procedure. SBU is a detective crime procedural. Under the Dome is really not a procedural. It's about fascism. Stephen would say that King as well. Who's going to run the trains under the Dome, ultimately? And Designated Survivor is a procedural, political kind of procedural where every episode there's an issue he has to deal with or problem, but character drives it. So it's not so much about the plot that I'm most interested in. I'm interested in how the plot can ignite, reflect, and refract who our characters are. So in other words, when George Clooney, in Year two, I did an episode about a kid who wanted to be allowed to die, who had cystic fibrosis. He's end stage, he's under 18. And George's like, I gotta save this kid. I gotta save this kid. And Laura Ennis's character says to him, who is this about, you or the kid? What does the kid want? It was a big turning point in the story arc of his character. And so he ultimately doesn't intubate the kid when he's dying. And the mother comes in. Wonderful. Veronica Cartwright from Alien and the Birds, when she was a child. Leave it to Beaver as a child, she says, intubate him. And she has the authority. Then it's changed a bit now in the United States, not so much in Europe. And Georgia's forced to do it. So the plot is pretty straightforward. I just told you the plot. But what the plot gave me, what the story gave me, is how do I find some medical story that will illustrate what Clooney's going through in year two now and or year three? I should say so he's always like, I'm saving the kid. And the year two I did, where he saved a kid in the tunnel, and he was the hero. And I thought, you know, now I want to, like, go deeper with him. And so I constructed a plot where he's forced to choose, is it about him, as Laura Innes says, or is it about the kid? But the point was, is that plot serves my characters always. So that's how I think about it.

A (15:49)

Fascinating. How do you think that movies and series have changed people's perspectives on cultural and social issues? And can you give some examples?

B (16:01)

The best example is Will and Grace and Modern Family and Gay Marriage. I think it's like, they're just like you and me. They're just like, they have kids, they have a family, Modern Family. And Will and Grace really changed, I think, the way people viewed gay marriage because they didn't really challenge people in ways that maybe some queer activists wanted them to, in the sense that they didn't go into the wide range of cultural, behavioral, social things that queer people might do that might quote, quote, quote, quote offenders. But they did really show that there's really not that much difference. They want the same thing. They want families, they want to be left alone. They want to live a fulfilling life. And I think Modern Family did a good job at that. And Will and Grace, they normalized it. We haven't really been able to, quote, normalize trans characters. I brought trans characters on my show. I think it's normal for me as a physician and a gay man, but it's certainly not normal for a lot of people. So I want to tell more of those stories and not in, like, cadre ways. So I think that's where we have to go.

A (17:22)

Neil, what are the three takeaways you'd like to leave the audience with today?

B (17:28)

The first takeaway is to listen to other people's stories, to tell them your stories. We can tell our own stories. We can tell about our own feelings, but we have to listen to other people's stories. We don't know what's best. By telling people what their story should be, we should welcome people to tell their stories. The second takeaway, I think, is to read widely and all kinds of things, novels, non fiction, that will help develop compassion and also rage and what I call accompaniment. I think it's important. And the third takeaway is to go back and watch these movies, particularly that inspired you as a child, and ask you, do they still inspire you? Do they still move you? Share them with folks. It's not just what the latest thing is on any streamer or on YouTube or TikTok because it's so ephemeral. But there are films that, you know, speak across generations. I watch Wuthering Heights, the original, and I cry. Oh, I cry and cry because it speaks to me about love that just doesn't quite work out.

A (18:53)

Thank you, Neil. Thank you for your time today and thank you for your wonderful series.

B (19:00)

Thank you, Lynn for having me. It's been really fun.

A (19:03)

If you're enjoying the podcast, and I really hope you are, please review us on Apple Podcasts or Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. It really helps get the word out. If you're interested, you can also sign up for the Three Takeaways newsletter at3takeaways.com where you can also listen to previous episodes. You can also follow us on LinkedIn, X Instagram and Facebook. I'm Lynne Thoman and this is three Takeaways. Thanks for listening.