All aboard Gina Air! Pauline’s private plane and the week in politics

Summary

Podcast Summary: 7am – "All aboard Gina Air! Pauline’s private plane and the week in politics"
Date: May 1, 2026
Host: Daniel James (Solstice Media)
Guests: Raf Epstein (ABC Radio Melbourne), with guest quotes from Pauline Hanson, Jess Wilson, and others

Episode Overview

This episode explores the Albanese government's response to the Royal Commission into anti-Semitism, the shifting landscape of political funding and influence (exemplified by Gina Rinehart's controversial support for One Nation and Pauline Hanson), and puts the current moment in the context of deeper political and societal divisions in Australia. The discussion spotlights how these currents are shaping both major and minor parties, and previews upcoming electoral tests that could have significant implications.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Royal Commission into Anti-Semitism: Government Response and Political Vulnerabilities

• Government Acceptance of Recommendations

  • Albanese government quickly accepted the first report's recommendations from the Royal Commission on anti-Semitism, prior to public hearings.
  • Came amid heightened political tension post-Bondi terror attack and ongoing conflict in the Middle East.
    (00:31–01:38)

• Security Funding Dynamics

  • Raf Epstein explains a paradox in security funding: overall increases for security agencies ($56B to $73B), but substantial declines in counterterrorism spending.
    Quote:

    "They've flooded the security agencies with money, but they've drained the coffers when it comes to counter-terrorism." – Raf Epstein (01:49)

  • Reason for shift: After ISIS caliphate fell, focus moved toward China and espionage over terrorism.
  • Both major parties share responsibility for changes in funding priorities.
    (01:49–03:32)

• Political Ramifications

  • While the Royal Commission found no inadequacy in preventing terror acts due to these funding decisions, media and political opponents are likely to exploit any appearance of weakness.
    Quote:

    "The PM doesn't want to talk about that. He just wants to talk about the general rise in the amount of money." – Raf Epstein (03:32)

  • The decisions around shifting priorities are bipartisan, but represent a vulnerability for both sides.
    (03:32–04:09)

2. Public Hearings and Their Potential Impact

• Tensions and Finger Pointing

  • The Royal Commission’s public hearings will be emotionally charged with testimony from victims of anti-Semitism.
  • A parallel is drawn with the UK’s Jewish community and the emotional responses to recent violence there.
  • The hearings are expected to amplify internal and external community tensions, with the identity politics around “Free Palestine” demonstrations particularly contentious.
  • Difficulty for the Royal Commissioner: adjudicating deeply conflicting narratives. Quote:

    "There’s going to be a lot of finger pointing ... That’s not easy." – Raf Epstein (04:30–06:02)

• Divisive Conversations

  • Epstein reflects on whether airing these divisions helps or harms social cohesion. Quote:

    "Sometimes these conversations just end up grinding each other's point of view into the dust and not engaging with it." – Raf Epstein (06:17)

  • Acknowledges the debate is divisive even within the Jewish community.
    (06:02–07:33)

3. Gina Rinehart’s Plane Gift and the Changing Nature of Populism

• Pauline Hanson’s "Grassroots" Pitch vs. Billionaire Backing

  • Hanson received a private plane and $2 million in donations, presenting them as tools for grassroots activism.
  • In a promo, Hanson recounts her humble beginnings.
    Quote:

    "This is about providing the wings for a movement that refuses to let the heart of this country be silenced. This aircraft is not for joyrides." – Pauline Hanson (07:48)
    "I’m a grassroots Australian." – Pauline Hanson (08:19)

• Populism: ‘Top vs. Bottom’ Replacing Left vs. Right

  • Epstein highlights a realignment in Western politics away from traditional left/right divides to a "top vs. bottom" dynamic, with the populist right less concerned about wealth as long as it’s used to disrupt the established order. Quote:

    "Instead of it being a left right battle, it's a top-bottom fight. Right? If I'm on the bottom, I'm being downtrodden, I want someone who sticks up for me." – Raf Epstein (08:39)

  • The "pub test" may not apply to One Nation’s base, who may overlook hypocrisy if the elite support appears anti-establishment.
    (08:39–10:18)

• Major Party Strategies and Dilemmas

  • Labor attempts to brand Hanson as beholden to Rinehart’s interests rather than workers’. Quote:

    "I think Pauline Hanson's a wholly owned subsidiary of Gina Rinehart..." – Political Commentator (10:41)

  • The Liberals privately fear Rinehart’s support for Hanson over them, without a clear strategy to counter.
    (10:18–11:48)

4. By-Elections and Electoral Shifts

• Immediate Test for One Nation: Nepean By-Election

  • The Nepean by-election is seen as a proxy for the future strength of One Nation, with the Liberals especially nervous. Quote:

    "The new first term opposition leader, Liberal leader Jess Wilson has spent every single minute that she can on pre poll." – Raf Epstein (12:05)

  • No Labor candidate, so main contest is between Liberals, One Nation, and possible independents.
  • Warns that a One Nation win or even strong performance would signal a crisis for Victorian Liberals, who have been out of government for 12 years.
    (11:48–14:11)

• Limits of National Extrapolation

  • Epstein cautions against drawing sweeping conclusions from either Nepean or the coming Farah by-election, due to differences in demographics and local issues. Quote:

    "Politics is getting much, much tougher to predict. We're all in our own little digital silos. I'd be wary about using Nepean as an indicator of what's going to happen in Farah." – Raf Epstein (14:24)

  • The unpredictability of politics is a repeated theme, with shifts happening faster and more chaotically than before. (14:11–15:39)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Counterterrorism Funding:

  "They've flooded the security agencies with money, but they've drained the coffers when it comes to counter-terrorism."
  – Raf Epstein, 01:49

• On Populism’s Realignment:

  "Instead of it being a left right battle, it's a top-bottom fight. Right? If I'm on the bottom, I'm being downtrodden, I want someone who sticks up for me."
  – Raf Epstein, 08:39

• On Internal Community Division:

  "I've lost friends, my family's fighting about it like it's divisive even inside the Jewish community before you even get outside of it."
  – Raf Epstein, 06:17

• On Gina Rinehart & Political Power:

  "I think Pauline Hanson's a wholly owned subsidiary of Gina Rinehart and we know this because whenever Pauline Hanson is asked to vote in the interests of Australian workers, she instead votes in the interests of Gina Rinehart."
  – Political Commentator, 10:41

• On Political Unpredictability:

  "Politics is getting much, much tougher to predict. We're all in our own little digital silos."
  – Raf Epstein, 14:24

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 00:31–03:32: Security funding shifts and political implications.
• 04:09–07:33: Royal Commission, community division, and emotional stakes.
• 07:48–10:18: Pauline Hanson’s private plane, Gina Rinehart support, populist dynamics.
• 11:48–14:11: Nepean by-election and risks for the Liberal Party.
• 14:11–15:39: Applicability of by-election results to national trends.

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Tone & Style

The episode features frank, insightful analysis in a conversational, accessible tone. Raf Epstein balances personal reflection with political analysis, conveying both empathy and skepticism about the ability of political processes to heal deep divisions. The discussion is nuanced, avoiding simplistic answers, and captures the uncertain, volatile mood of contemporary Australian politics.

Transcript

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[Daniel James]

I'm Daniel James and you're listening to 7am. The Albanese government has moved quickly on the Royal commission into anti Semitism, accepting

[Interviewer (possibly a host or journalist)]

all the recommendations from its first report

[Daniel James]

before public hearings begin. It comes at a volatile moment in national politics, after the issue was seized

[Interviewer (possibly a host or journalist)]

on by the opposition in the wake

[Daniel James]

of the Bondi terror attack and as tensions around the conflicts in Iran, Gaza and Lebanon continue to expose the deep divisions across the country. Meanwhile, one nation is trying to turn its momentum in the polls into something more lasting, all backed by a private plane from Gina Rinehart and millions of dollars in donations from her allies. Today, ABC Radio Melbourne's Raf Epstein on the Royal Commission, the politics of one nation and whether the divisions running through the country are likely to deepen. Foreign. It's Saturday, may 2nd.

[Interviewer (possibly a host or journalist)]

Ralph, thanks for coming on 7am the first report from the royal commission into anti Semitism was handed over to the government late this week. What did you make of the government's response, and particularly the pm?

[Raf Epstein]

Well, he was denying reality in some ways. The Royal Commission actually produced something really interesting, even in the interim report. They've flooded the security agencies with money, but they've drained the coffers when it comes to counter terrorism.

[Interviewer 2]

Did those funding decisions leave the intelligence agencies without essential resources?

[Raf Epstein (continuation)]

No, indeed, the report shows the opposite,

[Raf Epstein]

like we're talking stonkingly large amounts of money. This is both equally a coalition government thing and a Labor government thing. By the way, the security agencies have gone from 50, 56 billion dollars to 73 billion dollars. Like that's an extraordinary increase. The details we aren't allowed to know because they're the security agencies. But the spending on counterterrorism went down. The Royal Commissioner says it's significantly declined. The reason is the caliphate falls over the ISIS caliphate at the end of the 2010s and everyone goes, oh, China, everyone else, espionage. So they shift a lot of the effort. But that presents a real difficulty for a government. Sure, some of it happened under the coalition. They spend less on counter terror, downgraded the people inside the security infrastructure that keep an eye on this stuff. That's a real weakness politically.

[Interviewer 2]

It does show that overall increase. But it says there was a decline in the funding for counterterrorism. So do you need to link the funding more clearly to ensure it goes to the right places?

[Raf Epstein (continuation)]

The report makes it clear that there was no inadequacy when it comes to preventing terrorist acts as a result of government agencies.

[Raf Epstein]

It also, if you're part of the community that endured the massacre in December, you're allowed to ask legitimate questions and say, oh, hang on, if you spent less on counterterrorism, why would it have made a difference? We don't know it would have made a difference. But that's a real potential political opening and certainly an opening for significant sections of the media. So the PM doesn't want to talk about that. He just wants to talk about the general rise in the amount of money. Those decisions around, you know, different priorities, they're not partisan decisions. Both the coalition and labor did them. But that's a vulnerability. That's an interesting wrinkle already at this stage of the Royal Commission.

[Interviewer (possibly a host or journalist)]

I mean, let's go to controlling the narrative because the Royal Commission's first public hearings kick off on Monday, looking into the nature of and prevalence of anti Semitism in this country and hearing from Australians who've experienced it firsthand. It's sure to be very evocative, very emotional. Do you think that could result in some of that finger pointing you were just talking about towards the government?

[Raf Epstein]

Oh, it definitely will, like we know it will. One really interesting parallel was this terrible attack in a very Jewish suburb in London called Golda's Green. Pierre Starmer, also 11pm, holds a Shabbat dinner in Downing street every Friday night. His wife's Jewish, his kids go to a Jewish school. He does that in Downing Street. He was booed on the streets of London. Because someone horrifically had gone around trying to find observant Jews to stab and managed to stab two of them. So that real visceral anger from inside the Jewish community doesn't matter if it's right or wrong. It's real, it's present, it's going to come up in these public hearings. There's a whole plethora of Jewish organisations, they are all running workshops, they are desperate to get all the different points of view from inside the Jewish community in front of the Royal Commissioner and other people in the community. So, yeah, there's Going to be a lot of finger pointing. I think what's interesting is how contested these things are. You're on that march on a Sunday shouting free Palestine because you believe that the Palestinian people's future is under real threat. People on the other side of it say, no, you are the real threat. That's a hate march. Now, they are some of the most hotly contested politics that I've seen in a very long time in this country. Somehow a Royal commissioner, a judge is going to have to adjudicate on those things. That's not easy. So, yeah, there's going to be a hell of a lot of finger pointing that will come up in the public hearings.

[Interviewer (possibly a host or journalist)]

I mean, you know, through your role as a host of ABC Melbourne Mornings and the talk back that you get that things are pretty divided right now in the community and one of the true nexus points is Gaza. I mean, is there a risk this royal commission could divide us further?

[Raf Epstein]

I genuinely don't know sometimes if it's better or worse to have more discussion and debate. Of course, in theory, the contest of ideas, like, of course I believe in that, otherwise I wouldn't. I've been the ABC for 30 years because I believe in the contest of ideas. But you wouldn't be human if you didn't feel like sometimes these conversations just end up grinding each other's point of view into the dust and not engaging with it. So could it divide us further? Yeah, absolutely it could. Yeah, it really could. Do we need to talk about it? Yes. Is it the best way to do it, a royal commission? Well, you know, our politicians and our media aren't doing an awesome job of dealing with that debate at the moment, are we? So I guess putting a formal, non partisan framework around it could be good. Yeah, I really worry. I live in one of the most Jewish parts of Melbourne, grew up as a very strong member of the Jewish community. I've lost friends, my family's fighting about it like it's divisive even inside the Jewish community before you even get outside of it. So, yes, it could divide us further, but I have no answers about how to heal these divides.

[Daniel James]

Still to come, Pauline Hanson's shiny new gift from her billionaire buddy.

[Pauline Hanson]

This is about providing the wings for a movement that refuses to let the heart of this country be silenced. This aircraft is not for joyrides. This aircraft is for the battle for Australians raf.

[Interviewer (possibly a host or journalist)]

This week, in the middle of a cost of living crisis, we saw one nation gifted a private plane from Australia's richest woman, Gina Rinehart. As well as $2 million in donations from the billionaire's friends. It was all unveiled in a very slick promo video where Pauline described herself as grassroots.

[Pauline Hanson (continuation)]

It hasn't been an easy journey. I was elected 30 years ago to the Parliament, just straight out of my fish and chip shop, a business that I was proud to own as a single parent to provide for my family. I'm a grassroots Australian.

[Interviewer (possibly a host or journalist)]

Grassroots isn't something normally associated with private planes and billionaires. Does this pass the pub test? Will it sway any votes one way or the other?

[Raf Epstein]

Here's what's interesting. It's very clear the left right thing doesn't matter nearly as much as it used to in politics. That's really new. The tectonic plates are shifting. Whatever happened in Europe and America, especially on the right, but with populism in general, we are now a. And forgive this phrase, because I know it's got other connotations, but instead of it being a left right battle, it's a top bottom fight. Right? If I'm on the bottom, I'm being downtrodden. I want someone who sticks up for me. On the face of it, Gina Rinehart's Australia's richest person. She's giving Pauline Hanson a plane. Her friends are giving significant contributions to one nation. That would seem to work against the very thing that is putting real rocket fuel underneath Pauline Hanson's vote, at least in the polls. Does it pass the pump test for the one nation voters might be the important vote. We know that a significant vast majority of Australian voters really don't like Don. Gina Reinhart's really closely associated with Donald Trump. Do things like this take some of the shine off one nation for one nation voters? I think it's unlikely. If you're one nation curious, you're one nation curious. Whether or not Gina Rinehart relates to you. There does seem to be, especially on the populist right. If you're rich but want to tear down the system, that's okay. If you're rich and want to maintain the system, or if you're rich and want to do radical things on the left, that's not okay. There does seem to be some sort of immunity for the rich on the right who want to tear down the system, and I think Gina Rinehart might fall into that basket. It's not to say that doesn't change, but someone's thrown all of the cards up in the air, in the game politics in this country and around the world. So we'll see all the cards are

[Interviewer (possibly a host or journalist)]

up in the Air on a windy day, right?

[Raf Epstein]

Yes.

[Interviewer (possibly a host or journalist)]

I mean, is the strategy from the Liberals and from labor to a lesser extent then to try and tie Pauline Hanson via Gina Rinehart closer to Donald Trump? Because Donald Trump's popularity in Australia at the moment is through the floor.

[Raf Epstein]

I think that, well, the strategy and the treasurer, Jim Chapman Chalmers was very explicit when the story came out about the plane. He said, have a look at Pauline Hanson's votes in the Senate.

[Political Commentator or Analyst]

I think Pauline Hanson's a wholly owned subsidiary of Gina Rinehart and we know this because whenever Pauline Hanson is asked to vote in the interests of Australian workers, she instead votes in the interests of Gina Rinehart.

[Raf Epstein]

So Labor's trying to tap into that. It's unusual, I think, to find a significant member of a government having a go at Australia's richest person. Sure she's on the conservative side of politics and she's about but it's normally something they would walk on by and let that sort of thing sort itself out. The Liberal Party are in genuine existential crisis. They have no idea how to deal with Pauline Hanson and Gina Rinehart. I am sure they're worried that Gina Rinehart is backing One nation and not backing them. I don't really understand what the Liberal Party strategy is. I don't think they can tell me privately really what their strategy is. And I don't know that Labor's got a answer either. They'll give it a go. I don't think the PM will touch that sort of stuff. The treasurer does that because senior ministers do a bit of the aggro that you don't want the leader to do. That's sort of politics 101 and I don't know if it's going to work.

[Interviewer (possibly a host or journalist)]

One nation's appeal in Victoria will be tested this weekend at the Nepean State by election, the first real world test for the party post the SA election. How is that contest looking? Could we see Pauline's party get up or we looking like it could be a Liberal thing? Which way is it going?

[Raf Epstein]

First thing to say is the Liberal Party are increasingly nervous about this. The new first term opposition leader, Liberal leader Jess Wilson has spent every single minute that she can on pre poll.

[Jess Wilson]

Right across our team we have people focused on cost of living in every portfolio. That's why we've already announced that we'll reduce a number of taxes to put money back in the pocket. So of Victorians taxes will always be lower under a government I lead senior

[Raf Epstein]

members of her shadow cabinet. In fact I think practically the whole shadow cabinet have made trips there. They're clearly worried there's no labor candidate. I think if you're listening outside of Victoria, it's really important to know that this seat of the PM in many ways is like the seat of Farah where that by election is the week after. This is essentially internal trouble leads to Liberal MP leaving Parliament. A by election being imposed on an electorate that is assumed to be a Liberal electorate and one nation's coming in and is one of, if not the most significant competitors. Like that's that is why I use the words like genuine existential crisis. Liberal Party should win the seat in a PM if you've ever heard of Poncey Sorrento. Not all of the seats in opinion is like that, but it's that bottom bit of the Mornington Peninsula. If they don't win and one nation gets up or if they don't win and somehow the independent gets up, that is crisis for the Victorian Liberals. They've been out for close to 12 years. They've already got a huge electoral mountain to climb. It would be an absolute crisis if they lost. They are nervous. It's going to be a crucial little bit of data. In some ways it's harder than something like the state election in South Australia. State election in South Australia was a real vote that could have potentially changed the makeup of the government. Like you actually it makes a difference in some way similar to South Australia. He wanted to punish the Liberal Party in South Australia. He didn't think they were going to win the election anyway. Give them a kick on the way through and vote for one nation. So there wasn't a consequence in some way to the South Australian election. That's the danger in Napin, it's the danger in Farah. It's not going to change the government. So if I'm one nation curious, but normally a Liberal voter, stuff it. I'm not going to go with the Liberal, give them a kick up the backside. I'll vote one nation. That's the danger for the Liberal Party.

[Interviewer (possibly a host or journalist)]

And finally Raf, do you think we can read anything into the result whether that will be repeated at all in the Farah by election in Susan Lee's old seat next weekend. Is this going to be an indicator one way or another of one nation's national appeal?

[Raf Epstein]

I look they're pretty different seats. You know, Farah is very rural. There is significant disadvantage and homelessness on the Mornington Peninsula. But there's also extreme wealth and decent sort of middle class wealth by elections as much as they have national parties in them, and one nation now is really a national party. You can read a little bit into it. I'm just really cautious. The federal election last year, to go back to where we started. Gaza just seemed like the biggest thing, running a jolt of electricity through Australian politics. It really did. And so many people who spend the time to be involved in the news, politicians and media felt it was going to really take some skin off Anthony Albanese's government. And it was going to take skin off Anthony Albanese's government in Victoria because this government, the state government in Victoria, is on the nose. None of those predictions came true. I just think politics is getting much, much tougher to predict. We're all in our own little digital silos. I'd be wary about using Nepean as an indicator of what's going to happen in Farah. We all know things are changing. We can all feel it. We see it. You just know it in every conversation you have. We just none of us know where it lands.

[Interviewer (possibly a host or journalist)]

Well, Raf, some of us have to worry about windy days more than others. Thank you so much for coming on the show. Let's have you back again soon.

[Raf Epstein]

An absolute privilege and a pleasure to be on 7am with you. Thanks for inviting me.

[Interviewer (possibly a host or journalist)]

There we go. We just got the RAF Bump.

[Daniel James]

Foreign. Is a daily show from Solstice Media. It's made by Atticus Bastow, Ariel Richards, Chris Dengate, Crystal Keller, Nicole Johnston, Travis Evans, Zoltan Vecchio and me, Daniel James. Our theme music is by Ned Beckley and Josh Hogan of Envelope Audio. Thank you for listening to 7am this week. It really means a lot. Have yourself a great weekend.