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- [00:01]
Antoinette Latouf
Like, it's not a wild proposition to be like, you know what? I want to. I want to say that I'm not okay with children being starved and not have death threats. I want to say I'm not okay with being sacked over a Human Rights Watch post and not be dragged and misrepresented by the new chair of the ABC.
- [00:17]
Daniel James
In 2023, Antoinette Latouf was sacked by the ABC after sharing a Human Rights Watch post about Gaza.
- [00:24]
Antoinette Latouf
So I took a $2.6 million risk because I just thought that it was so significant in this moment in history and so significant for public interest and accountability.
- [00:35]
Daniel James
What followed become one of the most closely watched employment cases in the country, raising questions about political pressure, media independence, and whose voices are allowed to be heard now. After winning her case, Latouf has written a book about her fight and the women who have taken on powerful institutions and won. She's also become part of a new independent media movement as audiences look beyond legacy institutions for voices they feel they can trust. I'm Daniel James and you're listening to 7am today. Antoinette Latouf on the cost of challenging the system and what comes after winning. It's Monday, May 4th. Anthony, good to see you. You write that your case was never just about wrongful dismissal. It was about challenging systems designed to silence voices like yours. What did you mean by that?
- [01:34]
Antoinette Latouf
I think it became apparent very early on that this case was of political significance and significance more broadly because it occurred in December 2023 and it occurred at a time when any criticism of Israel's atrocities in Gaza, whether that be from journalists who signed petitions who wanted fairer coverage of Gaza employees across the public sector, there was a muzzling effect on our right to exercise our political opinion. And so had this happened, had I been unfairly dismissed or unfairly treated by an employer, a media employer, in, say, 2019, and this was just a, a one off case, not connected to something far more broadly politically significant. I probably wouldn't have fought as vehemently as I did, but I just knew that my case was symbolic or emblematic of a far wider and far more concerning case of stifling political opinion and punishing our right, what should be our democratic right to voice concern and still have safety in our workplace.
- [02:47]
Daniel James
And of course, all this is informed by people like your mum, who you also write about in your book, who had incredibly tough experiences in Lebanon before she came to this country. What was your case of such broader significance to the Lebanese and the Arab communities?
- [03:02]
Antoinette Latouf
Well, if you indulge Me a moment to wind back 20 years. The reason I entered journalism was because I recognized the stereotypical and harmful nature in which people from Middle Eastern, Arab or Muslim backgrounds were represented. So this was in the, you know, September 11, so called war on terror period. Coming from western Sydney, I was a teenager in those times. I vividly remember the Cronulla riots and the role the media played, particularly shock jocks, in helping to incite that riot and just how harmful it is on communities.
- [03:34]
Anonymous Commenter
What kind of grubs? Well, I tell you what kind of grubs this lot were, the slot were Middle Eastern grubs. There we go. I mean, you're not allowed to say it, but I'm saying it. John has a good answer. He says, it seems the police and the council are impotent here. All rhetoric, no action. My suggestion is to invite one of the biker gangs to be present in numbers at Cronulla railway station. When these Lebanese thugs arrive, it'll be worth the price of admission.
- [03:54]
Antoinette Latouf
So that's the very reason I wanted to become a journalist, because I was like, well, no, perspectives aren't fairly told. And so what I continually am told by people, whether they come up to me on the street or they message me, is we loved seeing an Arab woman represented and being able to use her voice, use her power, use her intellect, use her grace, use her ethics, use her humanitarian values in such a public way because for so long we aren't allowed to be represented in that way. That we have dignity, that we have strengths, and that we have certain rights that should be respected. So I think it's of enormous significance
- [04:31]
Daniel James
you started writing this book, Women who Win before you knew if you were to come out a winner in your case, I mean, crazy stuff. How hard was that uncertainty and what kind of toll did it take on you during that fight? I mean, we don't hear enough about the toll that these things take.
- [04:49]
Antoinette Latouf
Yeah. And I try and be as honest as I can and that's part of the reason I started writing the book in real time. So I started writing it in between the Fair Work Commission case and it going to the federal court where there was so much uncertainty. But I guess I wanted to write it to be as honest, as searingly honest as I could about how difficult it is to be in such a lopsided battle, but also to have your character assassinated in the, in, in the tabloid press, your safety attacked, dealing with trolling and death threats, all for wanting the right to voice concern about an unfolding genocide and believing that you should still have your job.
- [05:31]
Daniel James
It's not often I'll praise the abc, but in this case they have made the right decision. The problem I have with the situation is why on earth did the ABC hire this person in the first place? Because she identifies as Lebanese Australia and was posting a. A stream of anti Israel stuff on social media.
- [05:49]
Antoinette Latouf
And so I wanted to write it as that was unfolding, to give people an idea of the real impact that that has, but also to take that time to connect with other women who've taken on all sorts of battles. And I guess that's the genesis of my book. I look at all these other women who've won throughout Australian history and I learned a lot from them in real time because I was interviewing them, I was studying their histories, their stories, and getting a lot of, I guess, resilience and comfort in the fact that, hey, throughout history things have often been incredibly unfair and incredibly unjust. But that shouldn't deter you from doing the right thing.
- [06:24]
Daniel James
What was the darkest moment during it all?
- [06:27]
Antoinette Latouf
Gosh, I think the darkest moment was I was mourning the Antoinette of before. I was. I. I remember being at an event for my child at her school and I was sitting in the corner because I started to get really panicky in public and always looking at the exits. And I started to feel really unsettled and unsafe when I was out in public places. And I was like, I don't think I will ever recover from this. I felt so broken. I felt broken about the state of the world, I felt broken about the state of our democracy, about the independence of the abc. But mainly I mourned that I would never be the same person again, that I was broken beyond repair, that they had succeeded in crushing my spirit. And I remember sitting there going, I will never. I really, in that moment believed I would never recover from this. But also this sadness and understanding, well, that's what systems designed to crush dissent and crush this sense of hope for change are meant to do. They're meant to make you believe that it is insurmountable and that you will be ruined. And that is why so many people, when they see things that are wrong, they don't do anything about it because they're too scared that it will ruin them.
- [07:35]
Daniel James
Is that what your lawyers were alluding to when they warned you that even if you did win this case, you could still end up a loser? I mean, what was the cost of this fight?
- [07:44]
Antoinette Latouf
Oh, absolutely. There were many a times, and I'm so grateful. My incredible lawyers and barristers really had this like trauma, informed mode of operation where the entire time, like Josh Bornstein, my principal lawyer, sat me down when we first started. He's like, listen, I'm gonna be straight with you. I have done a lot of these matters before. You will probably never work again. Get a therapist, if not, get two. I have seen this ruin people, ruin their relationships, ruin them financially. Are you prepared to do this? And then just before we went to trial, my barristers said look, it's our duty to say, Antoinette, like you may, we don't know if you'll win this. You may go bankrupt if you don't win this. And the court orders that you pay the ABC legal fees. I know that our external costs at this point, of all of the components
- [08:35]
Daniel James
of that I think now more than two and a half million dollars.
- [08:40]
Antoinette Latouf
And I was like no, you need to, you need to proceed because we need all of those emails and all of that evidence in the public domain. It needs to come out. So I took a $2.6 million risk because I just thought that it was so significant in this moment in history and so significant for public interest and accountability that I literally had to. I ended up calling my cousin who was a lawyer and being like, coz is it really that bad if I go bankrupt? Like what does it. And then he was like listen Antoinette, you don't want to go bankrupt. Anyway, I took the bet and I'm
- [09:12]
Daniel James
not bankrupt thankfully, so it was worth it.
- [09:16]
Antoinette Latouf
Yeah, I'd do it again even it was horrible and I wish it on no one. I would do it again.
- [09:25]
Daniel James
Coming up, why people are turning away from mainstream media. And so that you've now co founded your own independent media company with Jan Fran, how do you define independent media? Because if you look at, you know, titles like the Sydney Morning Herald, they would call itself independent, the Guardian would call itself independent. Another, a whole range of mainstream media outlets would call themselves independent. What do you think defines independent media?
- [10:01]
Antoinette Latouf
Yeah, that's a really good question because we often laugh at, and part of what we do is yes, we do analysis and breakdown, but we find the humour in a lot of the hypocrisy when independent always is used as the SFH's tagline, which is not true because you're beholden to advertisers, you're beholden to potentially political interference like the abc right up until their last breath, even on the stand was saying no, we are, we are impartial and we would never be, we would never be swayed by lobbyists. And there was like, well, federal Court judge found that she capitulated to appease pro Israel lobbyists. So that in fact is not true. And so I think it's important that we always scrutinize those who call themselves independent because they're not above reproach. And neither are we, but our brand. And I can only talk about what media does. We don't align ourselves. Like, we don't allow any advertising from gas companies, from gambling, from alcohol. We don't collaborate with anybody who is on the BDS list. And to be honest, we barely have advertisers. Like, we mainly rely on subscribers so that our independence, like we are only answerable to our audience. Which means that nobody other than Jan, Fran and myself determine the editorial direction of what we, of what we do and what we say.
- [11:17]
Daniel James
And it seems like you're part of a broader movement with people seemingly turning away from mainstream media increasingly. Why do you think that is?
- [11:26]
Antoinette Latouf
I think time and time again, and this is across institutions, it's not just the media, there's a real trust deficit. There's very low, historic low levels of trust in government, historic low levels of trust in business, but also in the media. I think it's because it's been so plain to see, particularly in the past two and a half years, the sorts of lines and rhetoric that we're being fed by legacy institutions and even our politicians where we're like, hey, are you trying to gaslight us in real time? We can see what is happening in Gaza and to children even just recently, a few weeks ago, the National Press Club hosted the Israeli ambassador to Australia where he, with a straight face was allowed to say, oh, we don't kill journalists. No, Israel does not.
- [12:10]
Daniel James
So let's state the facts. Israel has never targeted a journalist just for being a journalist. The truth behind it is that Hamas and Hezbollah guise themselves as press and remain terrorist operatives.
- [12:31]
Antoinette Latouf
We're meant to believe those lines that used to go either unchecked or unchallenged when we have the evidence in our very hands on our phones. So people are seeing that disconnect. There was already a trend of distrust and I think it's been really accelerated in the past two and a half years because we have been able to see this huge discrepancy in the so called democratic values that we have and how those don't seem to apply or that honesty and transparency doesn't seem to apply with the unfolding atrocities in the
- [13:01]
Daniel James
Middle east is mistrust in the media? Is that one reason you think shows like yours is sort of Taking off because, you know, you unpack a lot of the media coverage around the place because that media watch market, for want of a better term, has really exploded of late. Is that one of the reasons why?
- [13:18]
Antoinette Latouf
Yeah, I think, I think people are sceptical of power, whether it's skeptical of tech behemoths and social media algorithms. They're getting, getting a sense of when things are shadow, banned. They don't like the fact that power is being concentrated in the hands of fewer, fewer people. And in Australia we have one of the most concentrated media markets in the world, second only to Brazil. We also have more and more billionaires buying up social media outlets and media companies. And so people are like, this doesn't feel like it's in the interests of us, it feels like it's in the interests of the agendas of fewer and fewer people. And I think that's a healthy amount of skepticism. But with, with people turning away from institutions also makes things like misinformation and disinformation rife or the ability to want to believe that it also, it's also concerning in the kind of the manosphere or radicalization, ideological radicalization. And so it's not all roses to be like, oh, turn away from institutions. Because I think vulnerable people can be really manipulated and that's when, you know, some really dangerous attitudes and dangerous behaviours can follow.
- [14:25]
Daniel James
So how do you think mainstream media organisations and institutions like the ABC can improve and win back trust with Australians?
- [14:34]
Antoinette Latouf
I mean, I think they need to be honest about their shortcomings. People make, organisations make mistakes, humans make mistakes. I think the entire time, the fact that in my case in particular, for it to take a micro look at first, the fact that there was denial and bullying and gaslighting and smearing until the 11th hour, they just could, like they continue to dig a hole for themselves. There were so many times when just me and even my legal team and I know the members of the public were like, why the fuck are they still fighting this? What are they doing? They are just digging deeper and deeper and deeper and they've continued to dig and then even coming out the other end of it, haven't overhauled anything to do with the way the board can be influenced. There hasn't been any investigation into who leaked my sacking to the Australian newspaper because that happened, that was published before I even got home. So the ABC hasn't done anything to suggest that it's learned and wants to improve. So step one is to acknowledge when you're wrong, like really acknowledge it don't do a oh, we are sorry you were offended type thing. I still haven't got an apology from Kim Williams, the chair, and I haven't really seen any material change other than a defensiveness and a doubling down from the new board and managing director. And then I guess people are waiting to see coverage that is more fierce and independent, that isn't scared of the next time the Australian sneezes, that isn't worried about political interference or an attack from the government. I think we've seen over years the ABC not be able to withstand public pressure or external pressure, whatever that power, whatever that force is. And I think a big way to win back audience trust is to show that you can withstand that. And we're yet to see enough evidence of that.
- [16:30]
Daniel James
Do you hold out any hope that there will be change on that front?
- [16:33]
Antoinette Latouf
I would love for there to be because it's so important for our democracy, it's so important for public interest journalism. I'm just not sure what else it's going to take for that change to come about. But of course I wish for it.
- [16:47]
Daniel James
Antoinette, thank you so much for speaking with us.
- [16:51]
Antoinette Latouf
Thank you so much for your time.
- [17:04]
Daniel James
7:00am is a Daily show from Solstice Media, is made by Atticus Bastow, Ariel Richards, Chris Stengate Crystal Color Travis Evans, Zoltan Fetcho, Me, Daniel James and Ruby Jones, who I'm excited to say will be returning as host this week. We'll be back with 7am tomorrow where we'll be chatting to the CEO of Snake, Catherine Little, about the heartbreaking death of Come and dry Little Baby and the lessons as a nation we need to learn from the tragedy. See you then.