Conspiracy Nation part 2: From fringe to Parliament

Summary

---

7am Podcast Summary

Episode: Conspiracy Nation Part 2: From Fringe to Parliament
Date: June 27, 2026
Host: Daniel James
Guests: Cam Wilson & Ariel Bogle (authors of Conspiracy Nation)
Theme: How conspiracy theories ingrained online and in fringe communities have seeped into Australian mainstream discourse—and even parliament—with serious societal implications.

---

Main Theme Overview

This episode explores the journey of conspiracy theories from the internet’s fringes into the heart of Australian political and social life. Daniel James is joined by investigative journalists Cam Wilson and Ariel Bogle, who share findings from their book Conspiracy Nation, discussing how conspiracist ideas gain traction with everyday Australians, are echoed by politicians, and manifest in real-world violence. The episode addresses: the origin and mainstreaming of specific Australian conspiracy theories, the political utility of conspiratorial narratives, violent incidents linked to such beliefs, and the national reckoning—or lack thereof—about their consequences.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Enduring Appeal and Evolution of Conspiracy Theories in Australia

• About 1 in 3 Australians endorse at least one conspiracy belief (00:18).
• The episode picks up where part one left off, looking at how these beliefs leap from the fringe into political discourse and sometimes, violent action.

2. Case Study: "Expose the 28"

• Origin:
  • Derived from a 2015 Senate Estimates session, when Senator Bill Heffernan claimed to possess a document naming 28 alleged paedophiles, including a former Prime Minister. The claim lacked substantiated evidence (01:50–02:26).
  • Quote (Ariel Bogle, 01:58):
    “He had a list which includes disturbingly documents that name in one document 28 people as alleged paedophiles.”
• Cultural Impact:
  • Despite questionable authenticity, “Expose the 28” has become a rallying cry at a range of protests, from anti-renewables to anti-Voice rallies, and serves as a “shibboleth” in Australian conspiracy culture (02:26–02:56).

3. Politicians’ Use of Conspiracy Tropes

• Pandemic and Culture Wars:
  • During COVID-19, politicians flirted with conspiracist groups, exploiting the narrative power of “us vs them” frameworks for political gain (03:06).
  • Discussion of the Safe Schools anti-bullying program saw conspiratorial accusations (“cultural Marxism”) seep into mainstream parliamentary debate.
    • Quote (Daniel James, 04:11):
      “This program is about Marxist ideology about sexual liberation of young people. I don’t want it to be about sexual liberation of young people.”
• Backfire:
  • Politicians dabbling in these views sometimes become targets themselves, accused by conspiracy communities of being “part of the cabal” (04:19–04:54).

4. Impacts of Mainstreaming Conspiracies

• Dangerous Framing:
  • When establishment figures echo anti-institutional rhetoric, it legitimises hate and can catalyse violence.
  • Quote (Cam Wilson, 05:04):
    “It’s really dangerous... It can lead to hatred so quickly. That’s why it is a very dangerous sort of framework for politicians to be using.”
• White Replacement Theory:
  • "Great Replacement" narratives—framed as legitimate policy concerns—are increasingly normalised, despite clear links to acts of extremist violence such as the Christchurch mosque shootings.
    • Example (Cam Wilson, 06:02):
      “In Australia, this has ties to one of the worst acts of terrorism committed by an Australian, the shooting at two mosques in Christchurch in 2019. Brenton Tarrant… called himself an avowed racist...” (05:50–06:28).

5. From Belief to Violence

• Other Violent Cases:
  • William Biller shooting (2022): Perpetrators espoused Christian fundamentalist (premillennialism), anti-government, anti-vaccine, and sovereign citizen ideas (07:22–08:19).
  • Within conspiratorial communities, even if violence is rare, the rhetoric empowers real-world threats.
    • Quote (Ariel Bogle, 08:29):
      “When you say that you are on the side of good and other people are on the side of evil... that mindset leads you very quickly to deciding that you want to take an extreme response yourself…”

6. Australia’s Unique "Sovereign Citizen" Movement

• Behavior:
  • Includes viral confrontations with police in which citizens claim not to be under Australian jurisdiction (09:23–10:00).
    • Memorable Moment (Cam Wilson, 09:48):
      “Maybe they say I’m travelling, not driving, so you don’t have authority or something like this.”
• Motivation:
  • Embracing pseudo-legal theories partially as a psychological response to the complexity (and perceived inaccessibility) of Australian institutions—often triggered by personal crises, e.g., financial hardship.
    • Insight (Cam Wilson, 11:10):
      “I think you often see people turn to these ideas... because the banking system, the legal system... are extremely complex, almost as complex as pseudo law itself.”

7. National Reckoning and Accountability

• Lack of Response:
  • Australia has not publicly examined its role in the radicalisation of individuals perpetrating acts like the Christchurch attack (12:10–13:43).
    • Quote (Cam Wilson, 13:15):
      “Australia did not even [have a royal commission]. So at least in public, we’ve had so little reckoning with the Australian roots of the man who committed this act... any of these questions remain unanswered…”
• Comparison to US:
  • Though Australia has not reached the levels of the US (where conspiracies have reached the White House), the increased presence in mainstream political discourse is alarming.
    • Quote (Ariel Bogle, 13:59):
      “Conspiracy theories are part of human nature... but that doesn’t mean we should be resigned to accepting people using them... we really need that shared commitment to a reality.”

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “Expose the 28... it’s become a kind of shibboleth, I guess, in Australian conspiracy theory culture.” — Cam Wilson (02:56)
• “These are the ways that these kind of tropes can creep into our discourse... it is just such a useful way to create a simple political narrative for people that want to get clicks, get attention.” — Cam Wilson (04:19)
• “It is a very dangerous sort of framework for politicians to be using.” — Cam Wilson (05:04)
• “Mainstream media and politicians have normalised white nationalist frameworks like this by treating them as representing legitimate concerns.” — Citing Ghassan Hajj, Cam Wilson (06:34)
• “We shouldn’t accept them [conspiracy theories]. We should be empathetic toward the people who are kind of falling under their spell, but to people who are using them for their own gain, we should call them out.” — Ariel Bogle (14:35)

---

Timestamps for Important Segments

• Origins and rise of “Expose the 28”: 00:58–02:56
• Politicians courting conspiracy communities: 03:06–04:54
• Mainstreaming of “great replacement” narrative: 05:33–06:28
• Christchurch shooting and ties to Australian culture: 06:02–07:02, 12:10–13:43
• William Biller shooting, sovereign citizen ideologies: 07:22–08:19, 09:12–11:51
• Discussion on lack of national reckoning: 12:10–13:43
• Global comparison and warning for Australia: 13:43–15:07

---

Conclusion

Conspiracy Nation Part 2 dissects how conspiracy theories no longer occupy just dark online backwaters but are wielded by public figures, fuel real-world violence, and shape political narratives in Australia. The hosts and guests caution against complacency, urging rigorous challenge and compassion in response—lest Australia's own fringe truly seeps into the core.

---

Transcript

[Daniel James]

This is part two of a two part episode. If you haven't yet, go back and listen to the COVID Conspiracy Pipeline. I'm Daniel James and you're listening to 7am. It's easy to dismiss conspiracy theories as fringe or imported. But conspiratorial ideas are gaining traction with everyday Australians. About one in three endorse at least one conspiracy belief. They're also being echoed by people in power and have spilled into real world violence. Today, Conspiracy Nation authors Cam Wilson and Ariel Bogle on how conspiracies leap from the fringe to the mainstream, including all the way to Parliament House. It's Sunday, June 28th and this episode was first published in August 2025.

[Ruby]

We've spoken about the freedom rally in Sydney in, in May of 2023 and there were these posters and placards at that rally. Expose the 28. Punish the 28. Can you tell me a bit more about that conspiracy and where it came from?

[Cam Wilson]

So in the book, like we were trying to understand Australian conspiracy theory culture, the kind of strongest threads that come through all the Facebook groups and telegram channels and in person rallies and protests that we have experienced, and there are a few, we looked at conspiracy theories around Port Arthur. That's kind of one of the original conspiracy theories that spread on the Internet in Australia. But this idea of expose the 28 is another cindeed.

[Daniel James]

Heffernan, over to you.

[Ariel Bogle]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman, Mr. Attorney General.

[Cam Wilson]

So back in 2015, Senator Bill Heffernan, a Liberal party senator, stood up in, in Senate estimates and said that he

[Ariel Bogle]

had a list which includes disturbingly documents that name in one document 28 people as alleged paedophiles.

[Cam Wilson]

This was the time of the Royal commission into institutional abuse. So Australia was kind of grappling with genuine cover ups of child abuse at

[Ariel Bogle]

the highest of levels. There's a former Prime Minister on this list and it is a police document.

[Cam Wilson]

But in terms of this document, there was not much to it. People that claim to have seen it say it's not, you know, not signed, it's just conjecture. But for many of these groups it's become like one of the original sins of Australia. So when you go to protests against renewable energy, when you go to protests that I went to in late 2023 against the Indigenous voice to Parliament, you always see T shirts, posters that say expose the 28. And it's become a kind of shibboleth, I guess in Australian conspiracy theory culture.

[Ruby]

Right. And so to what extent are we seeing politicians take these theories from various forums, fringe theories and capitalising on them.

[Cam Wilson]

Yeah, well, certainly during the pandemic you did see some politicians dabbling in this space because there was a potential political constituency there that they thought might be beneficial. So we did see some nods and some kind of like footsie, I guess, between politicians and some of these groups. But broadly we look at in the book the way that these conspiratorial tropes are kind of politically useful because they ask kind of so simple, us good guys fighting against them, bad guys over there conspiring against us all. And so we do see politicians use these frameworks. And one thing we look at is the public discussion of the Safe Schools program, which was an anti bullying program that began in Victoria, was being rolled out federally in the mid 2010s. Malcolm Turnbull is facing a new crisis in coalition ranks. Government MPs are deeply divided about an anti bullying program that's supposed to promote peace and harmony in the nation's schools. And we did see some politicians using the term cultural Marxism, that this program

[Daniel James]

is about Marxist ideology about sexual liberation of young people. I don't want it to be about sexual liberation of young people.

[Cam Wilson]

So these are the ways that these kind of tropes can creep into our discourse. And we see this increasingly because again, yeah, it is just such a useful way to create a simple political narrative for people that want to get clicks, get attention. Unfortunately, we do see them kind of get folded in themselves because some of those politicians that dabbled in anti lockdown kind of conspiracy theories themselves became the target of conspiracy theories when people kind of turned on them and accused them of being part of the plot, the part of the cabal themselves. So these things do come full circle as well.

[Ruby]

And what impact does it have having politicians who are very much part of the establishment lean into these kind of anti institutional ideas?

[Cam Wilson]

I think it's really dangerous. Anna Merlin, a journalist in the United States who's looked at conspiratorial culture in the United States. You know, she talks about how dangerous conspiracy theories be as a way of framing the enemy. It can lead to hatred so quickly. That's why I think it is a very dangerous sort of framework for politicians to be using in the book as well. We do look at the sort of threads of white replacement in Australia. This is the conspiracy theory that white people are being eliminated in Western countries today.

[Daniel James]

Proof that the Albanese government is destroying

[Cam Wilson]

Australia, whether it be through immigration, destroying

[Daniel James]

it almost literally by its crazy immigration intake. Now this is not a conspiracy theory. You know, the great replacement through birth

[Cam Wilson]

rate through other means.

[Daniel James]

Our latest fertility figures show Australian women have never had fewer babies per person, not in the history of modern Australia. Just 1.5 babies now per woman.

[Cam Wilson]

And that means, and of course in Australia, this has ties to one of the worst acts of terrorism committed by an Australian, the shooting at two mosques in Christchurch in 2019. Brenton Tarrant, a 28 year old Australian, he posted a 74 page manifesto calling himself an avowed racist and citing his inspiration, both the white supremacist who killed 77 people in Norway in 2011 and the white supremacist who murdered nine black parishioners at a Charleston, South Carolina church in 2015. And so those sort of threads of a plot and of invasion in Australia, you can see that coming time and again throughout Australian history. Appearing in our media scholar Ghassan Hajj, who's looked at some of these issues, you know, he argues that mainstream media and politicians have normalised white nationalist frameworks like this by treating them as representing legitimate concerns. So you can see the danger there, particularly when you look at Christchurch as

[Ruby]

coming up, how Australia hasn't fully reconciled with conspiracy fuelled violence. Cam, I'd like to talk more about the real world implications of these kinds of beliefs. We've talked about the Christchurch shooter, but there are other cases too, aren't there?

[Ariel Bogle]

Yeah, there's definitely been other acts of violence linked to conspiracy theories in Australia. Probably the one that comes to mind for many people most is the William Biller shooting, which happened in late 2022 when three people ambushed and killed two police officers, injured some more and also killed a neighbour as well. And they had this, you know, wide spectrum of beliefs.

[Cam Wilson]

The train family members subscribed to what we would call a broad Christian fundamentalist belief system known as pre millennialism. It's a belief system that comes from

[Ariel Bogle]

Christian theology, you know, anti government, they're also anti vaccine.

[Cam Wilson]

A range of different things help contribute to their belief in this system. So the COVID pandemic, climate change, global conflicts, social disparities, there's also a sense

[Ariel Bogle]

of kind of some pseudo war and sovereign citizen ideology.

[Cam Wilson]

Now early speculation around the motivation of the trained family members was that it centred on sovereign citizen, sovereign citizen ideology.

[Ariel Bogle]

And it's an example of how these beliefs can lead you to extreme acts because they are extreme beliefs. When you say that you are on the side of good and other people are on the side of evil and you think that they're doing terrible things and maybe not just threatening yourself, but perhaps threatening and actually harming lots of other people. That kind of mindset leads you very quickly to deciding that you want to take an extreme response yourself. And if you spend any time in these communities online or even in person, they are ones where talk of violence is pretty common. Thankfully, it doesn't often become real acts, but it does enough for it to be a serious threat.

[Ruby]

Can we talk a little more about the sort of the anti government sovereign citizen ideologies? Because there seems to be a uniquely Australian kind of version of it.

[Cam Wilson]

Yeah. So I think what people might be familiar with are these, like videos that spread online where people are having these bizarre confrontations with cops. Your driver's license. Let me. Thank you. I'm not in your jurisdiction. Sorry, I'm not in your jurisdiction. Yes, you are. I need your driver's license. Can you tell the police they have no authority?

[Daniel James]

Can you, can you bring. Can you bring the authority here? You don't have any authority. What is the crime that's been committed?

[Cam Wilson]

You know, maybe they say I'm travelling, not driving, so you don't have authority or something like this.

[Daniel James]

We are not driving. We are travelling. You guys don't even know what yous are on about.

[Cam Wilson]

I need your most senior. Most senior. These I would class under this broad umbrella of pseudo law. So the term sovereign citizen is more common, but that's quite distinctly American. Pseudo law is broadly this idea that Australian laws are somehow illegitimate and don't affect the individual that is trying to use them. So when we've spoken to people that believe in these ideas or who once did and no longer do, people have often turned to them in a kind of moment of confrontation with power in some way. You know, they've had something go very wrong in their life, Whether it be a kind of financial issue. Maybe they've run out of money and, you know, haven't been able to pay the mortgage on their house. And in the confrontation with the bank, they turn to these ideas that are kind of out of a desperation. I think you often see people turn to these ideas and kind of in a somewhat logical way, because the banking system, the legal system, like they are extremely complex, Almost as complex as pseudo law itself. But there was a historian, Mark Pitcavage I spoke to, who's a historian of these movements in the United States and he, you know, agreed about this complexity. People do kind of come up with these ideas in the face of immense complexity. But it's also just like a great get out of jail free card. Like you've got to find. Just say you don't believe in the government. Like you've got a mortgage you can't pay, you don't believe in the government. Like the council's told you not do something. Here's the easy way out. And that's where I think it might tie into this kind of complex relationship Australia has as a kind of post colonial nation. We do have a sort of uneasy place here on stolen land. And so sometimes I think at heart it's about that really uneasy relationship we have with what we as non indigenous people are doing here.

[Ruby]

And let's talk a little more about how we as a country are responding. We talked briefly about the Christchurch attack. It obviously took place in New Zealand, but it was carried out by an Australian. Do you think the Australian government has reconciled with how dangerous these ideologies can be?

[Cam Wilson]

Yeah, in the book, we didn't want to just leave, you know, all these ideas on the table and not discuss it all, how to address them. So we did look at how people are addressing them on a personal level, on a community level. And we did again look at the failure of the Australian government to deal with some of the worst acts of violence that have been attached to these ideas. And I think Christchurch is probably the most prominent example of this. Last week, on 18th March, Cabinet agreed to establish an inquiry into the Christchurch mosque's terror attack. Today, Cabinet agreed the inquiry will be a royal commission. There was this royal commission in New Zealand after the attack and I've spoken to people from the Muslim community there who have, you know, very genuine concerns about how that process played out and the role that they were able to have in the process. But they point out to me that Australia did not even do that. So at least in public, we've had so little reckoning with the Australian roots of the man who committed this act. You know, what kind of culture he was marinating in here. There has been reporting about his ties to far right groups in Australia, which is very well documented. He was a participant in our white supremacist scene on Facebook, on other platforms. He was a donor to white supremacist causes. But in terms of whether we could have spotted him before he travelled there, any of these questions remain unanswered in Australia because we haven't had any public process to question our role in rowing this person.

[Ruby]

And when you look at us politics, conspiracy theories are no longer fringe. They've made it all the way to the White House. Your book is called Conspiracy Nation. So tell me how worried you are that Australia could head down that same path.

[Ariel Bogle]

Look, it's hard to compare different cultures and different countries, but the effect on individuals varies widely. Like saying that you believe that Harold Holt was kidnapped by the Chinese in a submarine. Very different to saying that you think that vaccines are filled with microchips and so you won't let your children or anyone else in your life get vaccinated. I'm not sure if I had to say. I'm not sure quite where the US is, but the thing is with Australia is that we have seen these conspiracy theories used by powerful people in public life and ultimately this is something that needs to be resisted because we think that conspiracy theories are part of human nature. They're a way of understanding a world that is complex and often has conditions that feel unfair to us. But that doesn't mean that we should be resigned to accepting people using them. We shouldn't accept them. We should be empathetic towards the people who are kind of falling under their spell, but to the people who are using them for their own game, which we coin them out. Because ultimately we really need that shared commitment to a reality if we actually are to solve the problems that are facing all of us.

[Ruby]

Ariel and Cam, thank you so much for your time today.

[Cam Wilson]

Thanks, Ruby.

[Ariel Bogle]

Thank you.

[Daniel James]

7am will be back tomorrow with MP Zali Steggall. He's launched a new political party with Allegra Spender. So what is Community Strong Australia all about? And will their political gamble to ditch the independent tag pay off?

[Cam Wilson]

I would argue it's not about picking between being an independent or a party. It's actually about putting the best of both world together into a new style of political party that will, you know, I think, give more communities the opportunities to be at the table.

[Daniel James]

I'm Daniel James. Thanks for listening.