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- [00:00]
A
Foreign Jones and you're listening to 7am. Is the media's reporting on Israel's attacks on Gaza fuelling antisemitism? That's the question facing the Royal Commission into Anti Semitism which has been examining the role of the public broadcasters, the ABC and sbs. Appearing before the commission was Australia's envoy to combat antisemitism, Gillian Siegel, who came out swinging at the broadcaster's Middle east coverage and recomm amended it be overseen by an independent committee. But de Siegel's claims stack up today. Former Media Watch host and chair of ABC alumni Jonathan Holmes on the submission ABC alumni put to the commission and the role of the public broadcaster in reporting on war. It's Tuesday, july 14th. Jonathan the Royal Commission into Anti Semitism. In this most recent block of hearings last week, one of the focuses was on the public broadcasters. So to begin with, can you just tell me how it came about that the ABC and the SBS are part of this Royal Commission?
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B
That's a very good question, Ruby. The hearing block three, as it was called, was largely concentrated on social media for very good reasons. That's where there has been this extraordinary upsurge of anti Semitism, some of it really vicious and horrible, directed at Jewish people in Australia. But one day out of the 10 days was devoted to alleged systemic bias, I think I could say, on the part of public broadcasters ABC and sbs. And our point of view is that this is hunt for a solution for something that isn't a problem. We do not accept that the public broadcasters are part of in any sense the problem of antisemitism. Indeed, they do a great deal to try to increase social cohesion by delivering trusted, balanced, fair news. And the problem is that a lot of Jewish Australians, at least according to Julian Siegel, special adviser to the Royal Commission and of course the appointed Australian special envoy to combat anti Semitism. She clearly believes, and she says that a great many Australian Jews believe the ABC and SBS are biased against Israel and that's really where the problem is.
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A
And so when you say our point of view, you were the lead author of the ABC alumni submission to the Royal Commission. So tell me more about the central concern that you wanted to put before the inquiry.
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B
Our central concern, let me make it clear, the ABC alumni is a group of former ABC people that doesn't have any direct connection with the abc. And we don't speak for the abc. It's important to understand that. And we didn't consult the ABC in making our submission to the Royal Commission, but we read Julian Siegword's original report back in July 2025, long before the Bondi massacre, about combating anti Semitism. And we were alarmed that in several places in that report she singles out the public broadcasters, ABC and sbs as being part of the problem because she says that in the way that it reports, it exacerbates antisemitism by emphasizing stories that are unfavorable and cast Israel in a bad light and by a process of what she calls conflation, bad news about Israel taken by ordinary people in Australia as a kind of excuse or reason to attack Australian Jews. She was proposing in that report that she, the special envoy, should have a special role in helping the broadcasters to amend their editorial guidelines and to cover the Middle east conflicts, particularly in a way that would be more favorable to Israel. At least that's the way I understood it. And we thought this was extraordinarily dangerous that this person, who is, after all, the immediate past president of the Executive Committee of Australian Jury, which is the leading representative body of Australian Jews, or certainly claims to be and has been attacking the ABC's perceived bias for decades, for decades, that she should set herself up as a sort of impartial arbiter of what is or isn't fair reporting.
- [04:39]
C
And my contention is that that whole system is not working to assure all of us that the reporting is as per required. And that's why I make the suggestion of an oversight exercise, a standing committee.
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A
And so when Gillian Siegel actually gave evidence, what she seemed to be proposing was some kind of standing committee or external oversight body for the ABC and sbs, not necessarily something would personally involve her. Tell me what you made of what she was proposing.
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B
So Julian Siegel, in her evidence to the Royal Commission, came up with a new proposal which apparently is included in an action plan, additional to her original plan that she submitted to the government in January, but which none of us have seen. But from her evidence, it's clear that she is now saying, oh, no, no, it's not me that's going to do the monitoring of public broadcasters. What I suggest is a standing committee of independent people who would become the arbiters of whether the overall coverage of Middle east conflicts is fair and impartial and accurate. And I guess would advise the ABC and SBS on how to avoid this problem of increasing the antagonism to Australian Jews because of bad news about Israel.
- [06:06]
C
I'm hearing from important stakeholders of mine how concerned they are, how aggrieved they are, how they feel that their trusted broadcaster is not being fair and accurate. I would like the ABC to be as good as it possibly could be. Ok, not, not, not in any way to restrict it or constrain it from being independent, but just to be as good as it could be. And I do think a structure where an independent group of people look at what is happening and they can give it a huge tick or they can give it guidance as to the fact that it needs to understand this particular hatred we are focused on better now,
- [06:54]
B
that's almost worse than we had feared. I mean, who is going to be this independent, constitute this independent committee by definition, if it's going to change the overall coverage of the Middle east conflicts, it would have to consist of people who have a more favorable view of Israel and its actions than the current ombudsman at the ABC and SBS or indeed the official regulator ATMA has, because those bodies have not accepted almost any of the constant complaints about bias that they've been receiving over decades. And no organization that I can think of devolves all its complaints Handling to some completely outside body, as Gillian Siegel seems to be recommending it would be an absolute abandonment of its independence. Now, I mean, where does that leave the ABC's reputation for impartiality? Above all, the ABC's job is to report the facts as accurately as it can and to reflect diverse views right across the community of what's going on.
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A
So there were these criticisms of the complaints process, but then there was also this kind of broader criticism of the ABC's balance in how it covers the Middle east, particularly Gaza. Tell me what you made of the way that Siegel characterised that.
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B
So what Siegel is recommending, I mean, among other things, and this is, to be honest, for any professional journalist, a kind of bizarre suggestion that if the ABC reporters understood this problem of conflation better, they would be trying to help to solve it by, for example, reporting more positive stories about Israel as well as the negative ones.
- [08:47]
C
And we should find a way to where they also run positive stories. And I've said this in my statement, that they could run positive stories about other things Israel is doing, amazing startup nation and things like that. They very rarely do that. There's no attempt at that part of the agenda.
- [09:08]
B
And she gives the example of all these wonderful startups that are happening in the Israeli economy. And why don't we talk about that instead of all banging on about Gaza all the time? Now, if we're reporting on, I don't know, the ICE activities in the United States and the killing of innocent civilians in Minnesota, do we feel the necessity to balance that with a story about a Hollywood blockbuster or the success of AI or something, I mean, it's just a bizarre notion.
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A
Coming up, what's at stake for the abc, Jonathan? The ABC is used to being accused of bias. It happens all the time on many different issues. But what do you think changes when the accusation is not just about bias but about contributing to anti Semitism or social division?
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B
Well, this is where this problem becomes even more dire. I mean, as I said, I think Gillian Siegel is unfortunately right that Israel, the Israeli Defense Force and its actions, especially in Gaza, but also on the west bank and in Lebanon and so on, all of this bad news exacerbates antisemitism. It's a huge problem and the Royal Commission has quite rightly spent a great deal of time on that. But these things are happening. You can't deny that they are happening. If the ABC reports the news inaccurately or in a biased fashion, genuinely, then absolutely it should correct itself and it should do it as soon as possible. But you know, there's only been, for example, four instances out of the thousands of complaints that the ABC Ombudsman has received of bias or inaccuracy in the Middle in Middle east coverage that she has upheld. And the acma, the ACMA has not upheld a single complaint about Middle east coverage of ABC or SBS since, I don't think, 2003. So those regulators don't believe it's a problem. Gillian Siegel does believe it's a problem. So her solution is to change the regulators.
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A
How precarious do you think this time is for the ABC in terms of the pressure that it's currently under? Because as well as this Royal Commission, there has been criticism from other arenas. One nation recently barred the ABC from reporting at their events. How does all of that shape the stakes here?
- [11:47]
B
Oh, it's a critical time at the moment and the ABC doesn't have as many friends as one would wish that it did have. I mean, News Corporation, which is very powerful, especially Sky News, which is watched widely in the regions on free to air television, keeps up a continuous reign of criticism of the ABC night after night. One nation, as you say, is implacably opposed to the abc. It wants to basically defund it except for some elements of what it does in the regions. But I mean, Julian Lisa, the well respected front bencher, the Liberal Party front bencher, was on the radio just this morning saying he's not the communications spokesman, but he is a prominent and respected Jewish member of Parliament, saying that he accepted Siegel's recommendations And he thought the ABC should pay attention to them and there's a serious problem and so on and so on. So there are a great many people who are happy to climb onto this, what I'm tempted to call bandwagon of criticizing the ABC because it is the nearest thing we have to an impartial news service and it takes sides, whereas of course News Corp does.
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A
Looking ahead, I mean, what kind of recommendation from this Royal Commission would worry you? And conversely, I mean, what do you think might actually be useful here?
- [13:10]
B
I think the most useful thing the Royal Commission can do is simply not to accept any of the recommendations of Julian Siegel where they have to do with the public broadcasters. I mean, she has picked on the public broadcasters, not on any other media organization in the country. When you look at news corporations coverage, it's not hard to work out perhaps why, but the public broadcasters are simply not the problem. There is no evidence whatsoever. I don't think even Julian Siegel came up with any evidence that the ABC is in somehow directly exacerbating anti Semitism within Australia. It's all about its coverage of affairs in the Middle East. My own reading may be right, maybe wrong, of the Royal Commissioner and her counsel assisting Richard Lancaster, is that neither of them were particularly sympathetic to what Siegel was saying. They were asking quite pointed questions about how on earth this independent committee would actually improve the ABC's reputation for independence or impartiality. So I'm hoping that just as the government ignored Ms. Siegel's recommendations about the public broadcast in its response to her original report, I'm hoping that the Royal Commission will either simply kind of leave that on one side or recommend that things stay as they are. That's the most useful thing they can do. I mean, there are two really trusted news organizations in this country at the moment. One of them is SBS and the other is the abc. Their complaint systems are working pretty well and frankly, if it's not bust, don't go fixing it.
- [14:49]
A
Jonathan, thank you so much for your time.
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B
You're welcome.
- [15:03]
A
Also in the news, the Royal Commission into Anti Semitism and Social Cohesion has also begun examining the lived experiences of Jewish students and academics, including the response of universities to hate on campus. A University of New South Wales tutor and PhD candidate has told the commission he was subjected to Nazi salutes by four students in his business class for international students in 2024. The commission has also heard evidence that Jewish students felt pressured to hide their identity on campus after the October 7th attacks. And actor Sam Neill, star of the Jurassic park movies the Piano and the Dish has died at the age of 78. He passed away on Monday surrounded by his family. It followed the actor's recent revelation that he was living cancer free after being diagnosed with blood cancer in March 2022. I'm Ruby Jones, this is 7am thanks for listening.