‘I know I’m a polarising figure’: Alan Joyce on Qantas, reputational collapse and his legacy

Summary

7am Podcast Episode Summary

Episode Title: ‘I know I’m a polarising figure’: Alan Joyce on Qantas, reputational collapse and his legacy
Host: Daniel James (Solstice Media)
Guest: Alan Joyce, former Qantas Chief Executive
Date: July 26, 2026

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Overview

In this episode, Daniel James interviews Alan Joyce, the former CEO of Qantas, following the release of Joyce’s memoir. The conversation centers on the major controversies that defined Joyce’s final years—illegal staff sackings, customer service failures, allegations of corporate arrogance, the public's dramatic shift in perception, and his personal legacy. Joyce defends his most controversial decisions, acknowledges failures, and reflects on the impact of his personal story on his leadership and advocacy for social causes.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Why Alan Joyce Wrote His Memoir

[02:16]

• Joyce wanted to share his personal and family history, including experiences as a gay man, and Qantas milestones and crises.
• Aim: "To put my side of that story and explain how we made those decisions from my perspective."
• Quote: "I know I’m a polarising figure. But it was also to put my side of that story and explain how we made those decisions from my perspective." – Alan Joyce [02:56]

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2. Pandemic Decisions and the Illegal Staff Sackings

[03:26–06:19]

• Qantas sacked 1,820 ground workers during COVID—later found illegal by the High Court, resulting in $120 million compensation and a $90 million penalty.
• Joyce defends the decision as necessary for the airline’s survival amid extraordinary uncertainty and possible bankruptcy.
• He claims decisions were made with legal advice suggesting legality, and stresses emotional difficulty.
• Quote: "Nobody set out doing anything illegal. But the court found it that way. And I accept that." – Alan Joyce [04:38]
• Admits, with hindsight, the call would have been different: "You make decisions in real time and they're evaluated in hindsight." – Alan Joyce [05:24]

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3. Refunds, Credits, and Customer Confusion

[06:19–08:35]

• Qantas issued flight credits for cancelled flights, despite terms entitling many customers to refunds.
• Joyce concedes this was a misstep, citing chaos, complex systems, and overloaded call centers.
• "We got that wrong... At the start, we did say we got that wrong in making sure it was clear to customers that they had the choice for refunds." – Alan Joyce [06:43]
• Details efforts to resolve: most credits were eventually used or refunded, with a substantial balance still outstanding and available.
• "I regret that, but it was the nature of the situation we were in." – Alan Joyce [08:27]

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4. “Ghost Flight” Allegations: Fee for No Service

[08:35–10:36]

• Qantas accused of selling tickets for already-cancelled flights.
• Joyce insists it was a system error, not a scheme, and that almost all affected customers were accommodated or refunded.
• "They didn’t do it for us to gain any edge. Absolutely, fundamentally believe that and wasn’t egregious in any way." – Alan Joyce [09:15]
• Points out similar practices at other airlines, calling for equal regulatory scrutiny.

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5. The Chairman’s Lounge: Political Influence or Just Hospitality?

[11:14–13:31]

• Criticism that Chairman’s Lounge memberships for politicians and elites might buy political favours.
• Joyce defends it as a commercial relationship tool, analogous to hospitality practices in other industries and airlines.
• "If it was that strong of an influence...the big things we wanted the government to do, we never got them." – Alan Joyce [12:47]
• Asserts major lobbying aims (law changes, regulation) were unsuccessful, countering claims of undue influence.

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6. Reputation and Legacy: Financial Success Versus Public Trust

[13:31–15:37]

• Qantas’s trust ranking collapsed from 3rd (2018) to 40th (2022).
• Joyce identifies COVID as the turning point that undid high customer satisfaction, employee engagement, and financial strength.
• He believes Qantas’s brand will recover thanks to its financial health, fleet renewal, and major projects.
• "I have absolute regret that we took that hit in Covid. I wish I had gotten out before COVID because it would have been on a high." – Alan Joyce [15:13]

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7. Personal Reflections: Regrets and Pride

[15:37–16:49]

• Biggest regret: not foreseeing a faster recovery from COVID, which could have averted painful cuts.
• Most proud of: Qantas’s survival, future growth, and ability to invest post-pandemic.
• "It wasn’t a certainty at the start of COVID that we were going to come through it, but thankfully we did." – Alan Joyce [15:56]

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8. Activism and Coming Out: Shaping Qantas’s Social Voice

[16:38–18:24]

• Deeply personal account of growing up gay, risk of homelessness, and resulting advocacy for LGBTQ+ rights.
• Belief in the responsibility of CEOs to champion social issues, particularly those aligning with customers and staff.
• "I was very proud of the work we did for indigenous, for gender rights and for LGBT rights. We did a lot in a lot of different areas and we did it for the right reasons." – Alan Joyce [18:13]

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Memorable Quotes by Alan Joyce

• "I know I’m a polarising figure." [02:56]
• "Nobody set out doing anything illegal. But the court found it that way. And I accept that." [04:38]
• "You make decisions in real time and they're evaluated in hindsight." [05:24]
• "We got that wrong...making sure it was clear to customers that they had the choice for refunds." [06:43]
• "They didn’t do it for us to gain any edge. Absolutely, fundamentally believe that and wasn’t egregious in any way." [09:15]
• "If it was that strong of an influence...the big things we wanted the government to do, we never got them." [12:47]
• "I have absolute regret that we took that hit in Covid. I wish I had gotten out before COVID because it would have been on a high." [15:13]
• "It wasn’t a certainty at the start of COVID that we were going to come through it, but thankfully we did." [15:56]
• "I was very proud of the work we did for indigenous, for gender rights and for LGBT rights." [18:13]

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• [02:16] – Memoir motivations and personal background
• [03:26] – Illegal staff sackings and rationale
• [06:19] – Flight credits vs. refunds controversy
• [08:35] – Ghost flight (fee for no service) allegations
• [11:14] – Chairman's Lounge and political influence
• [13:31] – Collapse in public trust and legacy
• [15:37] – Personal regrets and points of pride
• [16:49] – Coming out, advocacy, and Qantas’s social stance

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Tone and Language

• Direct, often defensive when addressing controversies.
• Personal and reflective, particularly regarding social advocacy and his private history.
• Transparent in acknowledging mistakes but emphasizes unpredictability and the broader context (COVID, industry-wide struggles).

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For Listeners Who Haven’t Tuned In

This conversation gives a nuanced view of Alan Joyce’s leadership at Qantas during its most turbulent era. Joyce offers justification and context for deeply unpopular measures, acknowledges errors, and ultimately ties his actions to survival, not malice. The episode is punctuated by raw admissions of regret and pride, and closes with a moving reflection on his personal journey, tying it to his public leadership and advocacy.

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End of Summary

Transcript

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[Alan Joyce]

I think it's one of the best, if not the best, aviation job in the world and I'm very honoured that the Qantas board has selected me for that role.

[Daniel James]

Alan Joyce was once one of Australia's most admired business leaders. But by the time he left Qantas, he had become one of the country's most hated men.

[Alan Joyce]

$3.8 million. That is the eye watering amount former Qantas chief Alan Joyce will receive in his final payout from the airline.

[News Reporter]

The bonus in the form of surging shares comes two years after a string of incidents steeped the airline into reputational crisis leading to his high profile departure.

[Daniel James]

His final years at the airline were marked by illegal sackings, cancelled flights, withheld refunds and a collapse in public trust.

[Ryan Seacrest]

Qantas has lost its appeal in the High Court over the illegal sacking of about 1,700 workers during the pandemic.

[News Reporter]

Qantas has been fined $250,000 and convicted for illegally standing down a worker during the pandemic after he raised concerns about the risk of COVID 19 to staff cleaning aircraft from China. The ACCC is taking legal action against Qantas, claiming the company was selling tickets for flights it had already cancelled.

[Daniel James]

But in a new memoir, Joyce defends many of his decisions that made him a symbol of corporate arrogance and distrust. I'm Daniel James and you're listening to 7am today, former Qantas Chief executive Alan Joyce and what he believes Australians got wrong about him and whether he accepts responsibility for the damage done on his watch. It's Monday, July 27th. Alan, you spent 15 years running Qantas, then left amid extraordinary public backlash that you were largely unable to respond to. So why did you feel the need to write this book? And what is it that Australians have most misunderstood about you?

[Alan Joyce]

Well, Daniel, the book. I wanted to write the book for some time. You know, as you read in the book, it's got full of my entire family history, my entire life about being a gay man and coming out as gay. It talks about all of the early days of Qantas, some of the high tension issues like the QF32. And then it goes into the period, the last couple of years of the COVID period and what happened then. I talk about it from my perspective, what happened put the facts down and explain the conditions and the background. People may not agree with me still. I know that, I know I'm a polarizing figure. But it was also put my side of that story and explain how we made those decisions from my perspective.

[Daniel James]

Okay, so if we go to those last couple of years and we talk about COVID in particular, because from a public perspective, that's where things really sort of went off the rails. During COVID qantas illegally sacked 1820 ground workers. The High Court ultimately found that Qantas acted unlawfully and that the company has since faced $120 million in compensation and a $90 million penalty. In the book, you still describe outsourcing those jobs and as the right call.

[Alan Joyce]

Why I do say that when you look back to the period when the decision was made in 2020, we were staring at potentially the company going bankrupt. We had to make a whole series of decisions to make actually up to 10,000 people redundant. I think around the world in aviation, on aviation related jobs, over 2 million people were made redundant. It was the worst period in our history and we were fighting for survival. And I, I explained in the book, I had friends like nearly 25% of management went, had people I'd worked with for 20 years that were made redundant. I was in tears. They were in tears. It was horrendous. And we did everything with that intent to save the company. Now I recognize that those 1800 workers, that was an illegal action. It was found to be against the law. But at the time in the book, I explained when we made the call, nobody thought it was going to be illegal. The legal advice we had was that it wasn't going to be. It went to the board, it went to me, it went to the entire management team. Everybody thought we needed to do it. It wasn't something that we thought we wanted to do. None of this was, I say how heartbreaking it was because just six, seven months before that, Butters was hiring a massive amount of people. It was making record profits, record customer satisfaction, record, employee engagement. But when Covid happened, it knocked us and every airline for six, every airline had to make similar decisions. But nobody set out doing anything illegal. But the court found it that way. And I accept that you believe it

[Daniel James]

was the right call, but you're also right that had Qantas known how quickly travel would return, it would have not have done it. Doesn't that suggest that it was based on an assumption that turned out to be wrong? So doesn't that mean it was the wrong call.

[Alan Joyce]

Well, I think hindsight's great, Daniel. I say in the book, you make decisions in real time and they're evaluated in hindsight. I think that's the reality of a lot of things we do in life. I'd ask you to put yourself in our position in the middle of 2020 when we made these calls. And at the time, nobody knew there was going to be a vaccine. Nobody knew that there was going to be a rapid rebound. So you have to make the decision with that knowledge at the time that that knowledge at the time was the best decision you could make. Hindsight's great. If I knew everything that was going to happen later, we wouldn't have made that call. We wouldn't have had to make that 10,000 people redundant. We wouldn't have had to do that restructuring that we had at the time. And we wouldn't have had to make a whole series of tough decisions. But unfortunately, we didn't have that foresight. We didn't have that material when we were making the decision, and we had to make it with the. With the information we had at the time.

[Daniel James]

When the borders closed during the pandemic, Qantas suddenly had billions of dollars of customers money tied up in cancelled flights. You write in the book that issuing credits was the only viable path. But Qantas own terms said that customers were entitled to refunds and around 80% of customers holding Covid credits were eventually found eligible for refunds.

[Alan Joyce]

Yes.

[Daniel James]

Shouldn't that have been made clear to customers from the very beginning?

[Alan Joyce]

Yeah, we got that wrong because we were in. I'll explain why we did credits first and I'll say why we got that one wrong at the start. We had 22 million bookings in the system, I think, at the time. And when the border started closing down, most airlines, including ourselves, not all airlines, but most, reverted to credits as a way of managing it because every single customer issue was different. Some customers may have had expired credit cards, some customers may have half an itinerary used. Some customers had their bookings through travel agents. So we didn't hold the credit card details. A lot of the international bookings were there. So it was extremely complex. And the easiest way to do it was to convert to flight credits, which most airlines did. Now, at the start, we did say we got that wrong and making sure it was clear to customers that they had the choice for refunds. But we also had the call center melting down at the time because of all the disruption, because it wasn't designed for that and the easiest thing was to ask customers would they accept taking it in credit and then using it? And then over time, the credits was chunky, and I again apologize for that. But over time, we got better and better and better, and eventually up to 1.6 billion in credits that were there by the time I'd left, that come down to less than 600 million. So a billion of the credits were used and none of the Quantus credits ever expire, and there's still over 300 million. If any of your listeners have a credit, there's still 300 million of them there on the Qantas balance sheet, and he still can use them today. So go back and find it, or go to Qantas and try and find it, because they're still usable. So by the end, we did the right thing and got it right at the start, we didn't, and it was messy, and I regret that, but it was the nature of the situation we were in.

[Daniel James]

Then there's the. The issue of the ghost flight saga, where Qantas continued to sell tickets on flights that had already decided to cancel and failed to promptly tell close to 884,000 passengers their flights were off. Qantas says this was a system failure, not a deliberate scheme. But the company admitted it benefited from retaining revenue and keeping customers who might otherwise have booked with other airlines. Why should a reasonable person not see that it's Qantas profiting from conduct in you was misleading?

[Alan Joyce]

Well, because, you know. Well, it wasn't what we were accused of at the time. And I think subsequently that came out because there wasn't a fee for no service, because you look at the data, and I think all of those customers, domestic customers, either got a flight within an hour or two or the same day that they booked. And 98% of the international customers got a same day or on other airlines. And the people in Qantas, I believe, did absolutely the right thing. They were trying to minimize customer disruption. They didn't do it for us to gain any edge. Absolutely, fundamentally believed that and wasn't egregious in any way. And they did it to try and help the customer and manage the customer outcome. Of course, the ACCC didn't see it that way, I accept that. But I think the facts showed that this was not egregious. This was not fee for no service. In fact, all the customers either got a refund or they traveled, and they traveled pretty close to the time that they went on. I would say it's actually, it's interesting that even today, you know, Qatar Airways, for example, is doing the stuff that we were accused of doing back then. And I'm sure the ACCC is looking at that because I think that's happening and I hope the ACCC just doesn't look at Qantas cases on these things, but looks at a case that occurs on other airlines because of what's happening in the Middle east with some of the flights being closed down and started up. That's. I think it's happening today.

[Daniel James]

Still to come, the elite world of the Qantas Chairman's Lounge isn't used to buy political favors.

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[Daniel James]

ALAN One of the most fascinating things that I guess the listeners would want to know about would be the Chairman's Lounge. And there's been intense scrutiny over it. Critics say that giving out free memberships creates serious conflicts of interest, potentially allowing the airline to buy political favours and favourable regulatory treatment. In the book you say that's not the case, that it's just a relationship building tool. But these are relationships with politicians, judges and some of Australia's most powerful people.

[Alan Joyce]

Yeah. DANIEL what I would say is that a lot of people do hospitality in different ways. We as an airline have the lounge. A lot of airlines have similar lounges. Virgin has one very similar that it allows politicians to use and other customers. And the vast majority of people that get access to the Qantas Chairman's Club are corporate accounts. They're the BHPs, the banks, the big companies that give Qantas a lot of business. And it's related to the businesses that they give. And then of course there is the government. And it's generally perceived on the government side. And this is their call. It's generally perceived. As long as they declare these gifts, it's regarded as acceptable. And if you've ever looked through the register of gifts, Qatar's Club appears there, the Chairman's Club appears there. But there's lots of other gifts and Hospitality from a lot of other industries. In the book, I make the point out, Daniel, if it was that strong of an influence, I think it's their for good commercial reasons. With that strong of an influence. The big things we wanted the government to do, change the Quantous Sale act, regulate airports, we never got them. And they were big changes that I would have been unbelievably keen for. And I think it's giving us too much credit that we got the Qatar rights changed. I think the government made that decision for a whole series of other reasons. We know there was the issue with the women in Qatar and what happened with them. There was a lot of reasons around that decision. And if I thought it was what we did in my lobbying, I'd be claiming that. I'd be saying, great. That was my job. My job as CEO is to lobby the government to try and get Qantas position. But I think it's given us too much credit. And there was a lot of stuff I didn't successfully lobby the government on, which I wish I had.

[Daniel James]

In 2018, Qantas was Australia's third most trusted brand, according to Roy Morgan. By the end of 2022, it was 40th. You often point to Qantas financial survival and profitability as a measure of your success. Why shouldn't the collapse in public trust be treated as an equally important measure of your legacy?

[Alan Joyce]

Yeah, I think that was terrible. As I say, Daniel, in the book, you know, I was thinking of retiring in 2020. I stayed on to help Qantas through the COVID crisis that was occurring in 2019. Just before COVID we had the highest customer satisfaction in our history, the highest share price in our history, highest employee engagement. We were on the verge of having Project Sunrise. I got that through the board for that to happen. And we were one of the most trusted brands. Then Covid hit us, hit every airline for six, including us. And every airline around the world went through a similar hit. You know, you have a look in at Air New Zealand, probably one of the most trusted brands in New Zealand. It's now in the doldrums there. British Airways up in Europe as Covid, caused all of these problems with airlines delivering reliable service, with airlines having flight credit issues, with airlines having to make a lot of people redundant. And that does hit the brand. But what I have no doubt about is because of Qantas financial success and because of Qantas ability now to have teams like Project Sunrise coming, which is initiative that we did for Qantas to have the biggest fleet order in its history on its way, new aircraft arriving every other month because I put in the biggest order of 299 aircraft ever in Australian history. That brand will improve back to where it was. And I have absolute regret that we took that hit in Covid. I wish I had gotten out before COVID because it would have been on a high. And I know Covid hit us for six, but it hit a lot of airlines for six. And that was one of my biggest regrets.

[Daniel James]

You end the book by describing the journey from the soup kitchens of Dublin to the Qantas boardroom. When you look back now, what's your biggest regret and what are you most proud of?

[Alan Joyce]

I think the biggest regret probably goes back to 2020 and not having that foresight to see that maybe Covid could come out better and we didn't have to make the tough decisions we did back then. But I'm most proud of. Of making sure that Qantas came through Covid. I could be here, I'm apologizing for a lot that went wrong. I could be apologizing here of like 40 other airlines like Virgin Bonsa and Rex, but them going bankrupt and Qantas going bankrupt. And it wasn't a certainty at the start of COVID that we were going to come through it, but thankfully we did. And thankfully, Qantas is really strong today and can rebuild its brand because. And can rebuild its fleet and can invest in its future, can invest in Project Sunrise, because we did take the tough decisions during COVID And finally, Alan,

[Daniel James]

you write that coming out to your father was both the worst and best moment of your life. How did that experience shape your decision to make corners such a prominent voice for marriage equality?

[Alan Joyce]

Well, first it was, I'd say in the book, I came out three times to my family and I explained in detail how that occurred at a neighbor that was kicked out as a teenager. And I was really worried the same thing could happen to me and I would have had a very different life if that had happened. It's one of the reasons why I'm a big sponsor of the Pinnacle foundation and a patron of it, because still today, young gay kids are kicked out of home that gives them scholarships to let them have the education. I was lucky to have instant my accepting burdens. I do think I was a big advocate on a lot of issues. I think it's the role of CEOs to be advocates. Airlines, businesses are part of society. Your customers, your employees and your shareholders want you to speak up on these things. In fact during the Margin Quality campaign, I tell a story how one of our larger shareholders was telling me, you're not doing enough. There is while it's the right moral thing to do on some of these cases, it's the right business thing to do because minority groups, the LGBTI community, are five times more likely to travel with you if they think you represent them. You're likely to get more employees from diverse backgrounds if they think you represent them. And so on that basis, I was very proud of the work we did for indigenous, for gender rights and for LGBT rights. We did a lot in a lot of different areas and we, we did it for the right reasons.

[Daniel James]

Ellen Joyce, thank you so much for your time.

[Alan Joyce]

Thanks Daniel. Appreciate your time.

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[Daniel James]

also in the news, the Prime Minister is at odds with his own party over a push to allow Australians access to voluntary assisted dying via telehealth. The party backed the move at last week's labor conference. But Anthony Albanese says while he's in favour of voluntary euthanasia, he's concerned that overturning the ban could undermine the system. And Queensland police are investigating after an innocent bystander was accidentally hit by a stray bullet while standing near her front door in Cairns on Saturday. The 50 year old woman was shot in the leg when officers opened fire on a man allegedly armed with knives. She's now in a stable condition. I'm Daniel James. Thanks for listening to 7am we'll be back tomorrow. Foreign.

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