RFK Jr’s anti-vaccine obsession

Summary

7am Podcast Summary

Episode: RFK Jr’s Anti-Vaccine Obsession
Date: July 25, 2026
Host: Solstice Media
Guests: Ruby Jones (interviewer), Brian Deer (investigative journalist)

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Overview

This episode of 7am revisits an interview initially published in early 2025, following the controversial appointment of Robert F. Kennedy Jr. as U.S. Secretary of Health and Human Services (HHS) under President Trump. The discussion focuses on Kennedy’s two-decade-long anti-vaccine campaign, his role in the devastating 2019 Samoan measles outbreak, and the wider implications of his influence within the U.S. government, as analyzed by investigative journalist Brian Deer.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

RFK Jr.'s Appointment and Congressional Hearing

• Swearing-in Controversy (00:00–00:54):
  • Robert F. Kennedy Jr.’s confirmation as HHS Secretary followed intense bipartisan scrutiny of his vaccine stances.
  • Under oath, Kennedy claimed:

    "I support the measles vaccine. I support the polio vaccine. I will do nothing as HHS secretary that makes it difficult or discourages people from taking it." (Robert F. Kennedy Jr., 00:43)

• Reuters Investigation Allegations (00:55):
  • Despite his testimony, reports emerged that Kennedy considered:
    • Scrapping the childhood vaccine schedule
    • Dropping polio and MMR vaccines
    • Funding $5 billion into discredited vaccine-autism studies

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Brian Deer’s Perspective: RFK’s Background & Motivations

• RFK’s Rise in the Anti-Vaccine Movement (02:17–03:38):
  • Deer first noticed Kennedy in 2004, when RFK Jr. was already promoting the debunked link between vaccines and autism in U.S. media.
  • His Kennedy name grants him exceptional clout and access, helping bring fringe causes to public attention.
  • Financial Motive:

    "That's what he does. He sues people because one of the things about vaccine scares that people probably don't realize is that they begin as lawsuits and they are very, very lucrative for the lawyers who drive them." (Brian Deer, 03:26)

  • RFK Jr. profited significantly from legal referral fees and book publishing.

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2019 Samoa Measles Outbreak: A Humanitarian Disaster

• Deer’s Experience on the Ground (03:38–05:56):
  • Deer vividly describes the unfolding humanitarian crisis:
    • 83 deaths, mostly children under 4
    • "One mother, she lost three children… they were holding group funerals, ordering special small-sized coffins, and… having funerals going on every day of the week." (Brian Deer, 05:36)
• Why Samoa Was Vulnerable (06:08–07:49):
  • A medical tragedy: nurses misadministered vaccine mixed with a muscle relaxant, causing accidental deaths and a collapse in community trust—in turn, slashing vaccination rates.
  • Anti-vaccine activists, including Kennedy, exploited the crisis:

    "Anti vaccine campaigners kind of turned up almost like tornado chasers… they kind of wanted to be in on the action." (Brian Deer, 06:50)

  • Kennedy’s Direct Involvement:
    • Met with local anti-vax groups and was pictured with them, amplifying local fears.
    • "Mr. Kennedy appears on Facebook suggesting that vaccines are an issue… that helped fuel the problem they already had." (Brian Deer, 07:49–09:03)

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The Spread of Misinformation and International Impact

• Media Manipulation and Policymaker Influence (07:49–09:03):
  • The Samoan Prime Minister himself was influenced by claims vaccines were unsafe, as Kennedy had his ear directly.
  • U.S. diplomatic staff reportedly arranged RFK’s meetings with regional anti-vaxxers.

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The Origins of the Outbreak

• Tracing the Virus (09:44–11:02):
  • The outbreak’s origins traced to New Zealand’s large, unvaccinated Pacific Islander populations—another community affected by the same anti-vaccine misinformation.
  • The touring of the anti-vax documentary VAXXED (2017) accelerated the collapse of vaccination rates:

    "[Anti-vaccine campaigners] went to Australia and, and they went to New Zealand with this film advertising these false allegations." (Brian Deer, 10:39)

• Persistent Anti-Science Rhetoric:
  • "I've never seen any good science indicating that vaccines are actually beneficial." (RFK Jr. during documentary events, 11:00)

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RFK Jr. on His Role in Samoa: Evasion and Denial

• Senate Testimony on Samoa (11:30–12:51):
  • Kennedy was pressed over his alleged role in Samoa’s vaccine hesitancy and consequent deaths.
  • He deflected:

    "You cannot find a single Samoan who will say I didn't get a vaccine because of Bobby Kennedy… Most of those people did not have measles. We don't know what was killing them." (RFK Jr., 11:45 & 12:02)

  • Deer rebuts this, citing clear evidence that the measles outbreak ended abruptly after mass vaccination efforts:

    "When that had all happened, the outbreak went away and the children stopped dying… he is a Great one for saying things that don't check out." (Brian Deer, 12:13–12:51)

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"Make America Healthy Again": Slogan or Subterfuge?

• Kennedy’s Policy Agenda and Personal Gain (12:59–13:32):
  • Kennedy has trademarked and profited from the slogan "Make America Healthy Again," couching his anti-vaccine agenda in broader wellness and anti-obesity initiatives.
  • He’s leveraging HHS authority to fundamentally reposition federal vaccine policies, appointing allies to key agencies.
• Public Health Consequences (13:32–14:48):
  • Deer warns that Kennedy’s power and credibility could cause a resurgence of preventable diseases:

    "The credibility that he will give to avoiding vaccination for reasons that have not been established as valid, will lead to a rise in susceptibility to vaccine-preventable illnesses, outbreaks of disease, and it's very difficult to row these things back." (Brian Deer, 14:23)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the financial incentives of anti-vaccine activism:

  "That's what he does. He sues people because one of the things about vaccine scares… is that they begin as lawsuits and they are very, very lucrative for the lawyers who drive them."
  – Brian Deer, 03:26

• On the emotional cost of the Samoan outbreak:

  "One mother, she lost three children to me… they were holding group funerals… every day of the week."
  – Brian Deer, 05:36

• On the power of influence in small communities and leadership susceptibility:

  "Sanwa is a small community... So when something appears on Facebook, an awful lot of people see it… [and] the Prime Minister… would have been very easy prey really for someone… authoritatively telling him, oh yes, well that could be a vaccine side effect."
  – Brian Deer, 07:49

• RFK Jr. denying responsibility:

  "You cannot find a single Samoan who will say I didn't get a vaccine because of Bobby Kennedy."
  – Robert F. Kennedy Jr., 11:45

• Deer’s criticism of Kennedy’s evasion:

  "How Mr. Kennedy came to the conclusion that nobody knew what the cause was I think was a bit extraordinary. But then he is a Great one for saying things that don't check out."
  – Brian Deer, 12:51

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Important Timestamps

• 01:58 – RFK Jr.’s anti-vaccine activism origins and motivations
• 03:38 – Brian Deer recounts the Samoan measles outbreak
• 06:08 – The 2018 Samoan vaccine incident and its aftermath
• 07:49 – Kennedy’s direct influence in Samoa
• 09:44 – Measles virus origins and transnational anti-vax movements
• 11:30 – RFK Jr. grilled by U.S. Senate on Samoa
• 12:59 – “Make America Healthy Again” and Kennedy’s renewed public health push
• 14:23 – Deer’s warning about long-term public health risks

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Conclusion

The episode offers a stark examination of RFK Jr.'s sustained efforts to undermine vaccine confidence—both domestically and internationally—and how his newfound governmental power could have significant, dangerous consequences for public health. Brian Deer compellingly links Kennedy’s personal, legal, and financial motivations to devastating real-world effects, centering the human cost amid rising vaccine-preventable outbreaks. The tone is grave, evidence-based, and unflinching, urging listeners to recognize the urgent stakes of credible public health leadership.

Transcript

[Robert F. Kennedy Jr.]

I am Robert F. Kennedy, Jr. I am Robert F. Kennedy, Jr. Do solemnly swear. Do solemnly swear.

[Daniel James]

That I will support and defend.

[Robert F. Kennedy Jr.]

That I will support and defend. Constitution of the United States. The Constitution of the United States.

[Daniel James]

When Robert F. Kennedy, Jr. Was sworn in as Health and Human Services Secretary, it made official one of President Trump's most controversial appointments. His confirmation came off the back of a fiery questioning from Democrats and Republicans alike about RFK Jr. S record on vaccines.

[Brian Deer]

Mr. Kennedy, you have spent years pushing conflicting stories about vaccines.

[Daniel James]

And under oath, RFK denied he was against them.

[Brian Deer]

We need to move on, Senator.

[Robert F. Kennedy Jr.]

I support the measles vaccine. I support the polio vaccine. I will do nothing as HHS secretary that makes it difficult or discourages people from taking it.

[Brian Deer]

Anybody who believes.

[Daniel James]

But since then, Kennedy has moved to do exactly what he promised not to. A Reuters investigation claims he considered scrapping the entire childhood vaccine schedule, discuss removing polio in MMR vaccines and propose spending $5 billion investigating the disproven link between vaccines and autism. I'm Daniel James and you're listening to 7am. Today. We're bringing you an episode first published in February last, just days after Kennedy was confirmed as Health Secretary. In it, Ruby Jones speaks to investigative journalist Brian Deer about Kennedy's two decade anti vaccine campaign and why Deer thinks he's the most prominent anti vaccine campaigner in the world. It's Sunday, July 26th. This episode was originally published in February and 2025.

[Ruby Jones]

So, Brian, for many of us, the first time that we heard of RFK was his failed presidential run. And then of course, last year he was chosen as Trump's pick for Health secretary. But you have been reporting on the anti vaccine movement for more than two decades. So when did you first become aware of him?

[Brian Deer]

Well, I first got wise to him 20 years ago this July coming up when he suddenly popped up in American magazines trying to demonstrate the link between vaccines and autism. So he's been at it now for 20 years solid. He's not a particularly good campaigner, but he's got that magical name Kennedy, which plays so well in the United States. With his help, many causes have been brought to the forefront of public awareness. And his family's connections mean he has access to the highest levels of US government. So Mr. Kennedy, he's a product liability lawyer. What he tries to do is to get lawsuits going.

[Ruby Jones]

Kennedy made millions of dollars. Most of it was from his own law firm. He made about $9 million there. He also made money off book publishing.

[Brian Deer]

People would be attracted by the campaigner and then moved over to the product liability lawsuits.

[Ruby Jones]

He gets these referral fees sending essentially plaintiffs people, families to other law firms, and he refers them so that they can sue on the ground, say a vaccine lawsuit.

[Brian Deer]

That's what he does. He sues people because one of the things about vaccine scares that people probably don't realize is that they begin as lawsuits and they are very, very lucrative for the lawyers who drive them.

[Ruby Jones]

So he's experienced at campaigning against vaccines. And in 2019, that took him and you to the Pacific island of Samoa. Can you tell me what the situation was like there when you arrived?

[Brian Deer]

Well, I arrived in December 2019 in the middle of an outbreak of measles, which was absolutely appalling in its extent. 83 people died, overwhelmingly children. In fact, on the day I arrived, the tally was 48 children dead. That was children aged four or under. And it was raging through the island unstopped. The streets of Samoa are eerily quiet as the country deals with the fallout of an outbreak of measles that has claimed the lives of dozens. Arriving at the airport, there were emergency supplies being brought in, ventilators, because you need special small size ventilators for children who are being hauled in from different parts of the world. And I set off talking to mothers who'd lost their children, and it was a really, really quite a striking experience, I can tell you. I remember it was in the wet season and there was rain just hammering on the roof in open fronted housing. And the mother took me through how she had been finally told that her daughter had died. She was under 2 years old. The body was presented to her in a blanket and they took her home in the back of the car and dug a hole by the kitchen door and buried her there and put concrete over it. It was almost Christmas and they put fairy lights up. One mother, she lost three children to me. So it was three children. Even now it comes back to me like these years later. I mean, to experience that where they were holding group funerals, they were ordering special small sized coffins and they were having funerals going on, big traditional funerals going on every day of the week during that period.

[Ruby Jones]

Okay, that must have been very confronting. Can you explain a bit about why the community there was so vulnerable to this outbreak and how RFK Jr. Was connected?

[Brian Deer]

What had happened was the year before, two nurses on one of the islands in a remote hospital had wrongly mixed a muscle relaxant into the measles Multrubella MMR vaccine. It was a terrible mistake. And within a matter of hours they killed two children by accident. As a result of the the incident with the nurses, vaccination rates had fallen to a very low level. So you had a very, very vulnerable community. And so anti vaccine campaigners kind of turned up almost like tornado chasers. They kind of wanted to be in on the action.

[Ruby Jones]

The communication minister who's also the government spokesman, AFA Masaga Rico Tupai, says that the work of anti vaxxers is hampering their efforts to have everyone immunised.

[Brian Deer]

Conspiracy theorists online were trying to suggest there was something wrong with MMR and were campaigning.

[Daniel James]

Unfortunately, these anti vax people all live

[Alan Joyce]

overseas but they're using social media to influence the community and influence our population. What can government do?

[Brian Deer]

Then Mr. Kennedy had turned up.

[Ruby Jones]

So he turned up in San Mart. He was actually there.

[Brian Deer]

He actually turned up on the island. Yeah. And met with anti vaccine campaigners and was photographed with them.

[Ruby Jones]

1 NEWS has learned of a high level anti vax meeting organised in Samoa in June just before this deadly measles outbreak. A U.S. embassy staff member facilitated a meeting between vaccination critic Robert Kennedy Jr. And Australian Anti vaxx blogger Taylor Winterstein. She'd been forced to cancel.

[Brian Deer]

So it's important to recognize that Sanwa is a small community. This 200,000 people, that's not a lot. So when something appears on Facebook, an awful lot of people see it. And Mr. Kennedy appears on Facebook suggesting that vaccines are an issue. And the Prime Minister, he kind of got drawn into it because he had a close family member who had some kind of developmental issue and I think he'd been led to believe that it might have been caused by a vaccine. So he would have been very easy prey really for someone turning up from the United States, apparently authoritatively telling him, oh yes, well that could be a vaccine side effect. A prominent American anti vax activist would later tell a Samoan newspaper that he had the Prime Minister's ear on the issue and that the island nation's leader had privately shared his doubts about the safety of immunizing the public. That activist, quote, unquote. Yes, that's Robert F. Kennedy Jr. He was trying to muscle his way into the thing. And so Mr. Kennedy's appearance there was a news event and so that helped fuel the problem that they already had.

[Ruby Jones]

After the break, what RFK Jr says about his role in the outbreak and how he stands to profit from making America healthy again. Brian, we're talking about RFK's anti vaccine campaigning in Samoa in 2019, which contributed to low rates of vaccination in the country and 83 people, most of them babies, died. RFK was meeting with the Prime Minister of Samoa to tell him that vaccines had caused the outbreak. So tell me where this outbreak actually originated.

[Brian Deer]

What we know is that the virus came from New Zealand, Auckland. That year was going through the biggest outbreak of measles that it had in decades. And it was particularly concentrated on the south side of Auckland which has a substantial marian Pacific Islander community where vaccination rates had fallen to very low levels. And goes back to the appearance in Australia and New Zealand in 2017 of anti vaccine campaigners trying to promote a film by a disgraced British doctor named Andrew Wakefield. The film alleges a cover up of the claimed link between the MMR vaccine and autism. Both the link and the film have

[Daniel James]

been widely discredited, of course, but the

[Brian Deer]

film was playing in. They went to Australia and, and they went to New Zealand with this film advertising these false allegations.

[Ruby Jones]

Here's what those attending a screening of VAXT in the northland town of Maunga Toroto last night had to say to our reporter Zak Fleming.

[Brian Deer]

I've never seen any good science indicating

[Robert F. Kennedy Jr.]

that vaccines are actually beneficial.

[Brian Deer]

So there is a connection for the virus to come through from Auckland to the islands where it ultimately then erupted in a vulnerable community.

[Ruby Jones]

And so Brian in the lead up to being confirmed rfk, he was actually grilled at a Senate hearing in the US and he was asked about his role in the measles outbreak.

[Brian Deer]

Mr. Kennedy, you have spent years pushing conflicting stories about vaccines.

[Ruby Jones]

Can you tell me about that and what he said?

[Brian Deer]

So my question here is, Mr. Kennedy, is measles deadly? Yes or no?

[Robert F. Kennedy Jr.]

You cannot find a single Samoan who will say I didn't get a vaccine because of Bobby Kennedy. I went In June of 2019, he

[Brian Deer]

just shrugged it off and rejected it, saying that nobody knew what was killing the children.

[Robert F. Kennedy Jr.]

There are 83 people died when the tissue samples were sent to New Zealand. Most of those people did not have measles. We don't know what was killing them.

[Brian Deer]

And I thought, well, that was very strange thing to say because not only had there been samples taken and tested so they had that information, but when the government had a two day lockdown where everybody was told to stay home and vaccination teams cruised around the islands offering shots to people, when that had all happened, the outbreak went away and the children stopped dying. So how Mr. Kennedy came to the conclusion that nobody knew what the cause was I think was a bit extraordinary. But then he is a Great one for saying things that don't check out.

[Ruby Jones]

And so, vaccines aside, what do we know about RFK's agenda to make America healthy again? What can we expect?

[Brian Deer]

Well, Mr. Kennedy is talking now about making America healthy again with, without often revealing that he's actually taken out a registration on that expression. And I think he made an enormous sum of money selling it to the anti vaccine campaigners.

[Robert F. Kennedy Jr.]

President Trump is committed to restoring the American dream. And 77 million Americans delivered a mandate to him to do just that, due in part to the embrace and elevation of the Make America Healthy Again movement.

[Brian Deer]

And he's talking about diabetes, starting wellness farms, getting everybody to lose weight. But behind that is this anti vaccine agenda, which he is not going to give up on. And he will have a very great deal of power to intervene in that area, deciding which vaccine should move from the recommended list to the essential list, if you like, that. He can intervene in court cases, he can intervene in the advisory committees that make vaccine policy, because he actually appoints most of the members of them. And he's already had his recommendations taken up in some of the appointments that have been made to head the federal agencies, such as the National Institutes of Health and the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention and such like. So he's going to have a great deal of power. And the credibility that he will give to avoiding vaccination for reasons that have not been established as valid, will lead to a rise in susceptibility to vaccine, preventable illnesses, outbreaks of disease, and it's very difficult to row these things back.

[Ruby Jones]

Brian, thank you so much for talking to me.

[Brian Deer]

Pleasure.

[Daniel James]

I'm Daniel James. 7am will be back tomorrow with an interview with former Qantas CEO Alan Joyce. After almost 15 years running the airline, he left at the height of an extraordinary public backlash. Dubbed Australia's most hated man. Now, after years of silence, he's defending the controversial decisions that defined his final years at COINAS as tough but necessary. We put those decisions and those choices to him.

[Alan Joyce]

You know, when you look back to the period and when the decision was made in 2020, we were staring at potentially the company going bankrupt. We had to make a whole series of decisions to make actually up to 10,000 people redundant, I think around the world in aviation, our aviation related jobs, over 2 million people were made redundant. It was the worst period in our history and we were fighting for survival.

[Daniel James]

You believe it was the right call, but you're also right that had Qantas known how quickly travel would return, it might not have done it. Doesn't that suggest that it was based on an assumption that turned out to be wrong? So doesn't that mean it was the wrong call?

[Alan Joyce]

Well, I think, you know, hindsight's great, Daniel. I say in the book, you know, you make decisions in real time and they're evaluated in hindsight. And I think that's, that's the reality of a lot of things we do in life. Well, you. I'd ask you to put yourself in our position in the middle of 2020 when we made these calls. And at the time, nobody knew there was going to be a vaccine. Nobody knew that there was going to be a rapid rebound.

[Daniel James]

That'll be in your feed tomorrow. Thanks for listening.