Roman, Elliott, and Robert Caro: Live in Conversation

Summary

99% Invisible: Roman, Elliott, and Robert Caro – Live in Conversation
Release Date: November 19, 2024

In this compelling episode of 99% Invisible, host Roman Mars sits down with author Robert Caro and co-host Elliott Kalin for an in-depth live conversation at the New York Historical Society. Celebrating the 50th anniversary of Caro’s seminal work, The Power Broker, this episode delves into the enduring legacy of the book, Caro’s meticulous research process, and his continued dedication to uncovering the intricate stories behind influential figures in American history.

Introduction: Celebrating The Power Broker

Roman Mars opens the conversation by highlighting the 50-year impact of The Power Broker, a biography that reshaped public perception of Robert Moses—from a revered urban planner to an urban design antagonist. Mars remarks, “The Power Broker has endured in ways that few biographies have,” emphasizing its profound influence on how urban design and political power are understood.

Elliott Kalin adds, “There are so many amazing documents on display,” referring to the special exhibit curated by the New York Historical Society, which showcases Caro’s extensive research notes, including his interactions with both supporters and adversaries of Moses.

Robert Caro's Research Process and Archives

Caro, now 89 years old and working on his fifth volume about President Lyndon Johnson, shares insights into his rigorous research methodology. He explains the depth of his archives housed at the New York Historical Society, including handwritten notes and early drafts of The Power Broker. Caro reveals, “I cut 350,000 words around a third of my initial draft,” underscoring his commitment to refining his work to make it both comprehensive and accessible.

Notable Quote:

“If you just say he built 627 miles of expressways and parkways, that's not going to get anyone to read the book.”
(07:15)

Impact and Reception of The Power Broker

The conversation shifts to the book’s reception upon its release. Caro recalls the mixed reviews, including condemnation from Robert Moses himself, who referred to Caro as a “venomous viper” (05:19). Caro discusses how, despite initial challenges, the book eventually gained widespread acclaim and became a cornerstone in urban studies. He shares an anecdote about receiving support from fellow writer Joseph Heller, highlighting the literary community's role in easing the emotional toll of critical reception.

Notable Quote:

“I could do it a lot shorter, you know, in time and in length, but it's that then my feeling is then people wouldn't read it.”
(25:19)

Writing Style: Balancing History and Storytelling

Elliott Kalin and Roman Mars explore Caro’s distinctive writing style, which blends meticulous historical detail with engaging narrative techniques. They discuss how Caro’s emphasis on rhythm and storytelling transforms what could be dry historical accounts into vivid, compelling narratives. Caro explains, “I have always felt that the rhythm of the words was very important... if history was written with more attention to the rhythm of sentences, more people would read history.” (16:12)

Kalin remarks on the lyrical quality of Caro’s prose, noting how it captivates readers of all ages, including his own 10-year-old son, who enjoys listening to segments of The Power Broker at bedtime.

Notable Quote:

“There is, I believe, the right word for what you're trying to say... it just sort of came naturally.”
(15:33)

Audience Interaction: Insights from the Archives

The episode features audience questions that delve into the future use of Caro’s archives and the personal impact of his work. Caro expresses humility and hope that future scholars will continue to explore overlooked figures like Al Smith and Belle Moskowitz, whose contributions were pivotal yet underrecognized. He emphasizes the importance of preserving these detailed records for future biographical works.

Notable Quote:

“I could not figure out a way to do it. But I thought of, well, who else wrote about someone who had so much to compliment Homer... to list them that way draws you into the book.”
(18:20)

The Omission of Jane Jacobs and Continuing Legacy

A significant point of discussion is the missing chapter on Jane Jacobs in The Power Broker. Caro acknowledges the absence but underscores the breadth of his research, which includes extensive interviews and documents that didn’t make it into the final publication. He reflects on Jane Jacobs’ influence and shares her heartfelt letter praising The Power Broker, highlighting the mutual respect between influential urban thinkers.

Notable Quote:

“I have always, for some reason, felt that the rhythm of the words was very important... even if you have to spend a long time thinking about that word for looking for that word, you know.”
(17:59)

The Continuing Work: Biography of LaGuardia and Beyond

Caro reveals his ongoing project, a biography of Fiorello LaGuardia, signaling his unwavering commitment to documenting the lives of key figures who shape America’s urban landscape. Mars commends Caro’s dedication, stating, “The pleasure of the book is spending 1200 pages with this kind humanist who cares about this city and this country and this world,” underscoring the profound humanism that drives Caro’s work.

Conclusion: The Enduring Relevance of The Power Broker

As the conversation wraps up, Caro reflects on the long-term impact of his work and the importance of preserving detailed historical narratives. He remains steadfast in his mission to ensure that the stories of influential yet overlooked individuals are remembered and studied by future generations.

Notable Quote:

“If you do it by concentrating on individuals telling their stories, it's going to take another additional two weeks or two months or something... How do you get them to read it as a story.”
(25:19)

Roman Mars concludes by expressing deep gratitude to Caro for his monumental contributions to historical literature and urban studies, celebrating the enduring legacy of The Power Broker.

Key Takeaways:

• Robert Caro’s Legacy: The Power Broker remains a pivotal work in understanding urban development and political power, celebrated for its depth and narrative strength.
• Meticulous Research: Caro’s extensive archives and dedication to detailed research set a high standard for biographical writing.
• Engaging Storytelling: Caro’s ability to infuse historical facts with rhythmic and compelling storytelling makes complex subjects accessible and engaging.
• Enduring Impact: The book continues to influence readers, scholars, and urban planners, highlighting the lasting relevance of comprehensive historical narratives.

This episode not only honors Robert Caro’s monumental achievements but also provides valuable insights into the art of historical writing and the profound impact one dedicated author can have on our understanding of the built environment and the people who shape it.

Transcript

[Roman Mars]

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[Elliot Kalin]

One of the things I admire so much about Robert Caro's work is that he goes everywhere and that these notes here about the West Bathhouse at this beach. West Bathhouse beach is practically deserted at 10:38. Of course, it's V cold. Hank Bogak, a New Pulse student. It's generally pretty empty here, except for Tuesdays and Fridays. And it's like just how many people he must have talked to. And at all different levels of wherever he was. You know, I don't think he set up an appointment with this New Pulse student that works as a lifeguard at the beach. I think he just went and started interviewing people. And it's the way to do it. And just to have to have the confidence to do it. I can't do that. Just walk up to somebody and start interviewing them.

[Roman Mars]

If you're in New York City, you should definitely make a trip to the New York Historical Society to check out the exhibit. And now here's Elliot and me interviewing Robert Caro live on stage.

[Elliot Kalin]

Thank you so much, everybody, for joining us tonight. I know, speaking for Roman and myself, we're so excited to be here. We're so honored to be here with Mr. Caro. And Mr. Caro, thank you so much for joining us tonight. It really. It just means more than we can say to be talking with you. I know we only have about an hour. We've got to move really fast. So page one. No, that was my dumb comedy opening bit. Thank you, everybody, for indulging me with that. I appreciate it.

[Roman Mars]

So what I was hoping is that you could take us back to the moment before the publication of the Power Broker. Either the excerpts, the New Yorker, or the book itself. Were you more concerned that no one was going to read it or that one person in particular was about to read it?

[Robert Caro]

Well, I knew Robert Moses was going to attack it because he attacked anything he didn't like. I knew he was great with words. Robert Moses, when he was at Yale, was a poet, and he was actually a good one. He coined the good phrase about me, venomous viper. And the New York Times then would print anything Robert Moses said as fact. So the headline was Caro Venomous viper, comma, Moses says, wow.

[Roman Mars]

And what did that feel like when you heard venomous viper? And were you prepared for it that.

[Robert Caro]

He would attack him?

[Roman Mars]

I mean, just like, what did it mean to be attacked by him? I mean, you had done so much work. Your opinion of him was right there in black and white. But did it do something? Like, what did it feel like when you finally got that type of reaction from him?

[Robert Caro]

Well, I. You know, I was. I was expecting the book wouldn't sell very many copies, and I was sort of overwhelmed by the reception. I'll tell you one anecdote. My first review in the New York Times was not wholly favorable. You know, so in those days, if Knopf, my publisher, expected you to have a lot of interviews, they gave you an office, someone's office who was on vacation. So I was sitting in there, having digested this, you know, review, and suddenly Joseph Heller was standing in the doorway. Now he. His book Something Happened was published the same month as the Power Broker. And so I would see him, you know, in the halls, but I was too much in awe. I would say hello. We would say hello. I was in too much in law. We never had had a conversation, and there he is suddenly standing in the doorway. I later figured out that Bob Gottlieb said, go in there and cheer him up. And he says. And he says, he had this kind of voice, hey, kid, great review this morning. And I said something like, oh, I don't know, it was so good. And he said, you don't understand. He says, the only thing that matters is the space. This guy usually only writes this law for you. He wrote this law.

[Elliot Kalin]

So that's Robert Moses. Reaction negative. The Times reaction mixed. I was wondering, the names on the COVID of the book are Robert Moses and Robert Caro. But there's so many people in this book. There's so many people whose stories you tell and whose names you bring attention to when another book might have glossed over them. And I assume on the assumption that if everyone who's mentioned in the book buys a copy, you're good for, like, a couple dozen copies. But I was wondering if you had. Had you received any reaction after publication from anyone you talked about in the book? Any of the people, like. Like Lillian Adelstein or anyone like that, how did they feel about the way their stories were told, if you heard from them?

[Robert Caro]

You know, there are a lot of people, a lot of different chapters. The most moving thing for me were the people of the Cross Bronx, the people who were Thrown out for the Cross Bronx Expressway. And that morning, I had interviewed, like, two people, two couples. One lived in Co Op City and one lived with their kids. And that afternoon I had an interview with Robert Moses. So my first question was, what do you think the effect was on the people who lived there? And I still remember. And if I didn't remember, it's in that notebook that. Oh, he said there was very little hardship there at all. They stirred up the animals. But I just stood fast, so I won. That's not quite answering your question.

[Elliot Kalin]

I noticed I've learned from you leading.

[Robert Caro]

Up to your question. The book is long, but over the years, over and over again, I'd be giving a talk somewhere and someone would come up to me and say, I lived on 187th street or I lived on Southern Boulevard. And I'm so glad that you told what happened to us. So that was a reaction. People in power were enraged at the book. Mayor Wagner was enraged at it and issued a really strong statement denouncing it. You know, and you're not really used to that, to tell you the truth. And you keep wondering if you did something wrong. But it sort of faded away, I must say, rather quickly. All of a sudden, people were talking about the power broker in their columns, or in way that was. Really made me feel good.

[Elliot Kalin]

Wonderful.

[Roman Mars]

So in the Powerbroker, you take a lot of care as a biographer to sort of, you know, set the stage of, like, why Robert Moses is the way he is talking about his mother, Belle. Belle Moskowitz as well. And in the Lyndon Johnson books, you even go deeper and you're like, what is the soil composition of the Hill country to lead him to be who he is? And I wonder, this part of you, this core of you that is so attuned to the people who have less power and so committed and driven to telling their story. Where does that come from for you? Where did you get that impulse?

[Robert Caro]

Oh, no one's ever asked me that. But I'll tell you, it started actually on Newsday when I was still working just night, and I came across. They were taking. I'm trying to think of a. I'm editing myself now, so the story will be.

[Elliot Kalin]

There's no editor here. You can finally talk at length, however long you want.

[Robert Caro]

There was a huge thing going on where con men were selling retirement home sites in the Mojave Desert, aiming at the widows of patrolmen and the PBA and firemen. And for some reason, I had never done an investigative piece. For some reason, it struck me that something was wrong. And I remember I went to Alan Hathaway, who was this tough old managing editor, and I said, I'd like to go out to Arizona. I've never done anything like this before. And for some reason, he allowed. He authorized me to spend time out. I went to the Mojave Desert, and there was nothing there. You know, there was a. Where they had pictures of the beautiful country club and the swimming pool. There was nothing there. There was just a sign, this is Rio Rancho Estates or something. So I started to look into this, and I went to the county clerk's office and I saw the vast scope of this thing, that tens of thousands of people had actually bought land out there that they could never get water from. There was no water. And there was. And I didn't know what to do with it. I had never done a long story. And I remember the next day I was driving around the desert and I came to the top of Arise. And there below me was an old lady carrying two buckets of water. And it appeared to me she was carrying him from nowhere to nowhere. When I drove over the next rise, I saw she had sort of a corrugated iron. She had built sort of a corrugated tin shack. And I looked at her as she was coming, and I suddenly said, you know, you don't have to explain everything to people. You just have to tell about her. And that worked as it happened. And after that, I just always felt I attracted to the people who were hurt. That's about all I can say.

[Roman Mars]

I mean, I think you feel it in the work, but I think it's one of the reasons why it endures. Is that thing not just the story of Moses, but the story of all these other people.

[Robert Caro]

Thank you.

[Elliot Kalin]

This is going to seem like a non sequitur question after that. Very dramatic answer and question. But it's related in a way. Something that sticks out to me from that reporting series that you did is the picture you took where you are sitting at a table with a bottle of wine in the middle of nowhere for that Newsday article. And it's a very funny picture. And in the Power Broker, something that I feel like does not get talked about, but I guess maybe it stuck out to me because I'm a comedy writer by trade, is that there are times when it's a very funny book. There's a line in it that I love so much where you're quoting Moses saying traffic on the lie will. Will flow freely. And then you just write inappropriate adverb right afterwards. Or when you're talking. I forget which bridge or expressway it is that the press is saying, this will solve traffic forever. And then there's a space. And then afterwards it just says, it solved it for about two weeks. And I wondered if while you were writing it, there were times when you were aware of how funny those lines are and if it ever felt strange or if there were times when you were like, this book's getting a little dry. I need to put a joke in somewhere. Or if there's just something very New York about speaking that way and writing that way. I was wondering if comedy ever came into your mind while you're writing it, because there are very funny parts to the book.

[Robert Caro]

Well, I wouldn't say that was a funny line. I would say that's a line to hit hard. In my writing, I do pay a lot of attention to first lines and last lines. Maybe Bob Gottlieb would say too much, you know, but it just sort of came naturally.

[Elliot Kalin]

Actually, to me, it really feels like perhaps it's that your feeling for rhythm is so strong that you're tapping into that rhythm, that maybe I'm reading it as a comedy rhythm, but it makes it such a lively book. It makes it such a living book that you have this feel for the rhythm of the words. And those. There was on the episode that we just recorded, I think the chapter. Was it Rumors and Reports of Rumors where you're saying, for so and so. It was garbage cans for so and so. It was like, your opening lines are so fantastic for each of those sections in that chapter. Did you find it was hard to come up with those opening lines, or did they come to you like a. Like a lightning bolt?

[Robert Caro]

No, hard. Yeah. You know, I. I'm glad you used the word rhythm twice in the thing.

[Elliot Kalin]

I should have used it three times. That would have been better for rhythm.

[Robert Caro]

Three times. Even better. Because it's. You know, if I can just digress. People say nobody reads history anymore. You know, we're not interested in history. But the fact is, I think history is fascinating. And anyone would be interested in it if it's written the way it is. That history is a wonderful story, very dramatic. What's happening? What's happening in America today? How much more dramatic can you be? It's like a horrible but fascinating movie. So I have always, for some reason, felt that the rhythm of the words was very important. I don't know that anybody agrees with me, you know, but I think that more people would read history if history was written with more attention to the Things that novelists, fiction writers, the rhythm of sentences, the rhythm of words. You know, there is, I believe there is the right word for what you're trying to say, even if you have to spend a long time thinking about that word for looking for that word, you know. So if the answer to your question is it's deliberate, you know, that's all I have to say.

[Roman Mars]

We notice as we're talking about it on the podcast, and we go chapter by chapter. One of the things I love and love noting and talking about is the way that each chapter has a bit of a cliffhanger to get you to read the next one. And it's really. I just think the word smithing is just so much fun. It seems like very newspaper writing. Just, like, get you to the next thing. Like, I want to read the next thing, like, right now.

[Robert Caro]

Well, I want him to read the next thing.

[Roman Mars]

And I also wondered, like, in terms of this.

[Robert Caro]

Oh, could I. Yeah, please. In the answer to your question, I mean, I didn't mean to interrupt you.

[Roman Mars]

Answering the question is why we're all here.

[Robert Caro]

I've said it, you know, I've said it before on television, but I don't know that any, you know, people saw it. I mean, when I was starting the book, I do all my. And particularly on the power broker. I did all my research before I started the book, and then I realized nobody's going to read this book. You know, no one really knew who Robert Moses was. They certainly didn't know. There was an interesting story there. I said, how am I going to get them to read this book? And I have to do an introduction that tells people what he's done. And I couldn't figure out. I mean, you talk about time, days. I couldn't figure out a way to do it. But I thought of, well, who else wrote about someone who had so much to compliment Homer, you know, in the Iliad? So I said, how did he do that? And I remember, I went. I said, oh, he did it by listing the countries that sent ships one after the other. Somehow that draws you into the book, the rhythm in which he wrote. So I said, I'll try to do that with his highways. Because if you just say he built 627 miles of expressways and parkways, that's not going to get anyone to read the book. So I listed them. That didn't do anything. I said, so what's the rhythm here? I said, what if I find a rhythm that draws people in? And that was a deliberate thing. I was Thinking of. And I listed them and over and over again and they came out different, you know, when suddenly I saw they're coming out in a rhythm. Now I'm almost there, you know. And I don't say I succeeded in getting there, but that's what I was trying to do. So if you're talking about something in government or history that seems dry, if it's dry, then it's dry. But if it's dramatic, if there's a man trying to put a highway through a crowded area and throw all the. Whatever I said in the book, 15,000 people out with no place to go, you say that's a story and you got to find a way to tell it as a story. And that takes a long time.

[Elliot Kalin]

Sometimes the time, I mean, from the point of view of me, someone who did not have to do that work and just gets to read it the time, it seems very well worth it because the book is so. It's so beautiful. And an indication of that, which I think we have not talked about on the podcast, is that I have a 10 year old son and there are nights when before he goes to bed, he asked me to read him a page or two of the Powerbroker. And he particularly likes those lists in the introduction and he'll ask me to read him those pages, the lists of the expressways and the bridges. And I think it's that rhythm just it captures him and he doesn't know those places, you know, and he's. And it's made it very hard to continue through the book at a pace that it's going to take a while to finish reading it a page or two at a time to him at bedtime. But it's such a. I feel like there's no other work of history that I can think of that my 10 year old is asking me to read to him at bed to get him into that. And it doesn't lull him to sleep. I have to stop because he's not sleeping and I have to leave the room. But it's that rhythm I think really captures him. Even just the sounds of those words are so beautiful the way you put them together.

[Robert Caro]

Well, you just made my day. Thank you very much. That's something I'll remember. Thank you.

[Elliot Kalin]

I'll tell him you said that.

[Roman Mars]

When you're writing, how much are you balancing being a historian and making sure that this number is out there for people to have for all time versus moving the story forward dramatically? Talk about the difficulty of that because.

[Robert Caro]

That seems very hard that's really hard. Sometimes you feel you're trapped by the facts. You know, this is a dramatic scene. Like right now in the book I'm writing now.

[Elliot Kalin]

Are you working on a book right now? I had no idea. I didn't realize it.

[Robert Caro]

No. It's about Lyndon Johnson. Oh, is it?

[Elliot Kalin]

Oh, okay. Interesting.

[Roman Mars]

Good subject. Yeah.

[Robert Caro]

And he's passing Medicare, and it's really. It's changing the financing of the Social Security system. And it's really dry. It's really a lot of numbers. But more than that, it's a very complicated fight is going on in the Ways and Means Committee because the chairman, Wilbur Mills of Arkansas, doesn't want Medicare, and he's going to stand in because he thinks it's going to destroy the financing of the Social Security system. And this is a chapter about numbers. And it's really dry. But you said. It may be boastful to say, but you said, no, it's not dry. This is all the people in the United States who had to choose between financing their. Sending their kids to college and taking care of their grandparents because there is no Medicare. That's not dry. You have to take these numbers and find a way of weaving them into something that people understand how big this question is. So you're constantly. It's a very good question. I mean, you're constantly. That's an extreme example, but you're constantly stuck by facts, these numbers. Yeah.

[Roman Mars]

Yeah.

[Elliot Kalin]

Do you ever find one of the things that makes your writing so powerful is there's this passion behind it, there's this excitement behind it about making sure people know these. I imagine you. Like, if you didn't have books, I imagine you running out into the street saying, people need to know this, and just grabbing people and telling them, do you ever. Is it hard?

[Robert Caro]

I've never done that.

[Elliot Kalin]

Well, luckily, you've got the books to put the thrill. You should try it sometime. It gets the blood racing. Do you ever find you're in danger of losing that passion because you're digging through numbers or because you're struggling to find just the right words? Is it hard to maintain that sense of energy that you need to get through the book to make people interested?

[Robert Caro]

You ask good questions all the time, actually, because you say if you do it by concentrating on individuals telling their stories first place, it's going to take another. An additional two weeks or two months or something, and you don't know how to do it. When you first think of it, you know, what you just asked is, what takes so long? I know, it takes my books, you know, they're too long. It takes too long, but it's, I could do it a lot shorter, you know, in time and in length, you know, but it's that then my feeling is then people wouldn't read it. People wouldn't understand why it's important. Do you know President Kennedy is assassinated and that night Lyndon Johnson is back in Washington. He's in his bed. He calls Bill Moyers, Jack Valenti and Cliff Carter, three of his young aides in, and he starts talking about what he's going to do. He says, I'm going to pass Harry Truman's health bill for him. Well, the story of how he passes the health bill could be a very dry story. It's changing votes in the Senate and in the ways, the Means Committee in the House. You say, yes, but this is a really important thing in American history. It's a government trying to take care of. So how does that work out? How does he get it through and how does it work out? So you really spend a lot of time just staring at a piece of paper and wondering how to do it.

[Roman Mars]

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[Robert Caro]

So.

[Roman Mars]

We have a few questions from the audience. I want to run past you. You know, how do you this is one how do you hope future generations will use the power broker and in particular your archive. That's upstairs. Your 20,000 linear feet of miles of archive.

[Elliot Kalin]

It's rare when an author's Work is measured in linear feet.

[Roman Mars]

What do you feel when someone's going through that stuff that you probably meant for no one to read but yourself or Ina?

[Robert Caro]

Oh, great question. You do feel funny about that, you know, but you say, but there's so much in it in the archives that no one knows that I want people to know. I'll give you one quick example. Al Smith was the governor of New York. You know, Franklin Roosevelt, when he was president, said to Francis Perkins, you know, Francis, 90% of everything we did in the New Deal Al Smith did in New York, New York was first in welfare, first in all the things we think of today, helping people out. And it's all because of this guy, Unlettered, had to drop out of school in the fifth grade and was once called Tammany's leading henchman. Says to the divorces of Tammany, I'm governor now. You have to free me. And gets all this passed. I learned about him because he raised Robert Moses to power, okay? And I said, this is the greatest story. And I did write a lot on Al Smith, which we cut out of the Power Broker. Now, when I was researching, I said, I'm going to try to find. There's no good book, no, not even a half good book on Al Smith. So I. So I said, well, I'm going to try to find everybody who was truly close to him. Truly not bullshit, but really worked with them. So there were 14 people, as I recall, left alive. And I did extensive interviewing them and typed them up as I do transcripts, and they're in that archive. And I'm hoping someone will come along and do a biography of Al Smith.

[Elliot Kalin]

Look at me, Roman. I don't know.

[Roman Mars]

This seems like your territory.

[Elliot Kalin]

I do. I do like Ghostbusters, stuff. Like, I don't know this. I'm not good enough for this.

[Robert Caro]

Yeah, but if they do it, they'll be able to talk about what it was like working with him. Like the same thing with Belle Moskowitz. No one even knows the name Belle Moskowitz. In the 1920s, a woman named Belle Moskowitz was arguably, I think, definitely the most powerful woman politically in the United States. Nobody even knows her name. So I also did a lot of interviewing on her. There's so much in my archives that didn't make it into the book. I mean, even though I wrote it, you know, we cut out 350,000 words. Not so funny.

[Elliot Kalin]

But piggybacking off of that, Roman. And I got to look at the power broker at 50 exhibit right before we were doing this event. And on the wall, there's a napkin that you wrote a note on about the women of East Fremont went to see Fiddler on the Roof. And for me, someone. It was two sacred things, the power broker and Fiddler on the Roof in one document. And I found myself so kind of affected by seeing it, so overcome by it, and it made me think, this is a note that Mr. Caro jotted down for his book. And this book that so many people have this very deep connection to, and they get very obsessed with it, and it becomes very special to them. And they read the book and it's all they want to talk about. And do you find that weird? Like, is that, you know, at all, like, I'm asking for a friend? Do you think it's weird that people get so wrapped up in the power broker in your work, but in the power broker especially? Does that ever feel strange to you?

[Robert Caro]

Well, what's your question?

[Elliot Kalin]

Basically, do you. I guess. I guess the most. The most basic way to boil it down is, do you think I'm weird for being. For caring, for taking this book and it feeling so special to me, Someone who has only read it. I assume you're mostly thankful, but does it ever feel strange that it's become such a. Such a talisman for people?

[Robert Caro]

It just makes me feel so humble, you know, the 50 years pass so fast, but I ride the number one train a lot, and Columbia students are on there, and apparently they teach the power broker in a couple of courses. So for 50 years, I said to Ina, I saw the most wonderful thing today. Another kid was reading the Power Broker. On the other hand, the things that will cut out of it, you know, what you just referred to. So as I said, everybody was thrown out and they scattered to the four winds. I said, how different is that from the czar destroying a shtetl? And we went to see Fiddler on the Roof, and at the last song is Anatevka. And if you remember, in the staging that I saw, they are singing Anatevka, Annatevka. A place where, you know, everyone you meet, and you'll be in a place where you're looking for one familiar face. And I said, oh, that's. I'm going to do a chapter on that, you know, And I wrote. I evidently, I didn't remember this. They showed me the nap. I evidently wrote that down on.

[Elliot Kalin]

You probably went to dinner after the show and we're thinking about it.

[Robert Caro]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I wrote. And so there was A chapter called One Mile Afterwards. Okay. We had to cut Bob Gottlieb. You know, he tried. He said, I think that I cut 350,000 of the best words I ever. Well, I think that's about the best chapter I ever wrote. And we just cut it down to like six pages or something like that. So you have so many mixed feelings about that book.

[Roman Mars]

So I have another question from the audience. It says, After 50 years of reflection, would you portray Moses any differently today?

[Robert Caro]

No.

[Roman Mars]

Yeah, I don't think so. Nailed it.

[Elliot Kalin]

I know I'm finding myself. It's hard for me to. And this is. For the past couple days, it's been very hard for me to formulate into question form the things that I want to say to you about the book and the. I don't. Does it ever. Does it ever. Well, actually, I apologize, Roman. You ask about it, I get very emotional about it.

[Roman Mars]

This relates to the exhibit a little bit, so I'm good.

[Elliot Kalin]

That's a great idea, Roman. Ground it in something.

[Roman Mars]

Yeah.

[Elliot Kalin]

Other than my beating heart for this book. Yeah.

[Roman Mars]

So the book is subtitled the Fall of New York. How responsible was Moses for this fall? Also, were other subtitles considered. And I know the answer to this because I saw one of them out there. So talk about the subtitle, the Fall of New York.

[Robert Caro]

Well, the easy answer to that is it's published in 1974. New York was bankrupt. You know, when you looked into it in the book, it shows how his spending on his. A number of things really crippled the city's financial capacity. Okay, but that's not all I meant. I meant that by the time he finished being in power, you had a city where there were 100, if I have this right, 144,000 units of public housing that were built in the cheapest possible way because he wanted people who were poor to feel poor. And they didn't have what LaGuardia wanted to put social workers in so that people from rural areas of the south could have someone help them, you know, get. So they had a city that's part of New York. New York is, by some, the most segregated city in America. You have a city where people commute to the commuting time in New York then was, by the way, I forget how they measured. It was the longest commutes in the world. It's done. It's done.

[Elliot Kalin]

It's done pretty bad rereading the book this time. I've lived in Los Angeles for a few years now, but I lived in New York for a Number of years. And I would read about the potential for a better subway system, and I would just think about the hours I spent waiting in trains that had stopped in tunnels in my years here. And it was making me so angry that it's. Yeah. That this another way the city fails its residents as a result of the things Moses was doing.

[Robert Caro]

Yes, that's the kind of thing I meant. And black people were still not using Jones Beach. You know, he didn't want poor people in general and people of color in particular to use Jones Beach. So he did a number of things which everyone talks about, and some academics try and put a different reason on it, but the people who built it knew why he was making the overpasses too low for buses to get through. And I remember his chief engineer, Sid Shapiro, saying, this is an example of. Of. They called them RM. This was an example of RM's wonderful foresight because we had legislation passed that buses couldn't use the parkways. But, you know, legislation can be changed. It's really hard to change a bridge while it's wet. So I want. I said to Ina, I want to see if that still works. So let's say this was 1970. I don't know what year it was. So we went out there and we stood in Jones Beach. There's a main parking lot which holds 10,000 cars. And everybody who parks there, you know, you have to go through an overpass with three archways. So Einar and I stood there with two pads, and you did, like, four lines, and then across, if you go up to the second floor of this. This museum, there's the pad and there's the entire page down to the bottom under whites. That's how many whites used there is, as I recall, 14 Latinos, and I think just five black people. So his stratagem worked. This is. So that's part of what I meant by the fall of New York, you know, we had all these vast slums living in these housing projects built as cheaply as he could build them. We had an education system, which he had. You know, when he did the World's Fair, he said he would have. And the number kept going up. 20 million for 40 million. $80 million would. The fair would profit. And he turned it over to the education system. Well, as it happens, I was the reporter who found out the fair was bankrupt. So in a way, anyway, that kind of thing is what I meant.

[Roman Mars]

Well, it's been such a delight talking with you. Thank you so much for the book. And when I think about this book, I know that maybe people see it as this 1200 page book of this dastardly man, Robert Moses. But what I want people to understand, the pleasure of the book is spending 1200 pages with this kind humanist who cares about this city and this country and this world in the form of you. And that's one of the things that it makes it so. I think that's one of the things that makes it endure for 50 years is your care that you give to the work and to all that you do. So thank you so much for everything. Please run with us.

[Robert Caro]

Thank you.

[Roman Mars]

You may have noticed something that we did not ask Robert Caro about that many people want to know what happened to the chapter in the Power Broker that was devoted to Jane Jacobs. So here's the backstory. Jane Jacobs was a journalist and activist who in the 1950s, helped organize a successful opposition to the Lower Manhattan Expressway, which would have cut through neighborhoods like soho, Little Italy and Chinatown. Jacobs went on to write the Life and Death of Great American Cities, this incredible book that delivers a withering critique of the urban renewal concepts and other harmful policies that Moses championed in the early stages of the Power Broker. Caro wrote about Jacob's fight with Moses, but ultimately her name does not appear in the book. We didn't ask Caro about the Jane Jacobs chapter because he's been asked about this so many times, like over and over again. And his response is always, I can't remember what's in that chapter, but one of the last pieces in the New York Historical Society's exhibit is a letter from Jane Jacobs to Robert Caro from August 1974, shortly before the book was published. So it says. Dear Mr. Caro, many, many thanks for the copy of the Power Broker, which I treasure, and also for your too generous but much appreciated inscription. I have no doubt that many readers are going to feel the way I do. We owe you a tremendous debt for all those years of work. Good sense, unflagging curiosity and compassion. I don't think anybody but a genuinely compassionate person, I do not mean sentimental, could have written that book. What an account it is of human predicaments. Yeah, predicaments. Sorry, there's like a little hyphen that goes into another word going up the slide.

[Elliot Kalin]

It's rare that you see a handwritten note where someone has a hyphen, where they continue a word on the next line. That's a writer. That's a real writer.

[Roman Mars]

It is of human predicaments. It ranks with the great novels in that respect. Well, you deserve a commensurate vacation, but Mary Nichols has told me that you are instead at work on a biography of LaGuardia. Selfishly, I can't help but be glad. I look forward to that. It's so much needs to be done and nobody could do it as well. Thank you again for sending the book, but especially for having written it in the first place. Sincerely, Jane Jacobs. I'm sorry to say, Jane Jacobs, he did not write that biography.

[Elliot Kalin]

No, Jane Jacobs would go to her grave awaiting that LaGuardia biography.

[Roman Mars]

99% Invisible was produced this week by Isabel angel, edited by Committee, music by Swan Rial, mixed by Martine Gonzalez. Special thanks to the folks at the New York Historical Society for making Elliot and my dreams come true. Kathy Tu is our executive producer. Kurt Kolstead is the digital director. Delaney hall is our senior editor. Taylor Shedrick is our intern. The rest of the team includes Chris Berube, Jason De Leon, Emmett Fitzgerald, Christopher Johnson, Vivian Lay, Lasha Madonn, Gabriella Gladney, Joe Rosenberg, Kelly Prime, Nina Potok, Me, Roman Mars, and Jaca Medina Gleason. Congratulations to you and Billy Jaco. It's just so nice to see two lovely young people get married and just. We're so happy for you. The 99% invisible logo was created by Stefan Lawrence. We are part of the Stitcher and Sirius XM podcast family now headquartered six blocks north in the Pandora building in beautiful uptown Oakland, California. You can find the show on all the usual social media sites as well as our own Discord server where we have a fun time talking about the power broker. We talk about architecture, movies and music, all kinds of good stuff. It's where I'm hanging out most of these days. You can find a link to that Discord server every past episode of 99pi and catch up with the Power Broker breakdown at 99pi.org I wonder what the inscription said.

[Elliot Kalin]

Yeah, I wonder.

[Roman Mars]

That would be something.

[Elliot Kalin]

I wonder if it was like, dear Jane, here's my book. Thanks for your part. Sorry you're not in the book.

[Roman Mars]

Yeah, I wonder if there's part of the Jane Jacobs archive that has it.

[Elliot Kalin]

This is now our next podcast series is the Mystery of Tracking down that Description. We'll do one of those episodes of a podcast where you follow the whole hunt and then you find at the end and you could have just said.

[Roman Mars]

What happened at the end where you find nothing.

[Elliot Kalin]

Probably that's more likely.

[Roman Mars]

That's the podcast MO is to make it all about the process because there is no answer something. The answer is truth.

[Robert Caro]

Or something.

[Roman Mars]

I don't know.

[Elliot Kalin]

It turns out the answer was the friends we made along the way, the.

[Roman Mars]

Nature of truth and the friends we made along the way. Hello, beautiful nerds. It's Roman here. If you're loving 99% invisible and want to hear new episodes ad free and get access to exclusive bonus content like AMAs with me and producers on staff, subscribe to SiriusXM podcast plus on Apple podcasts to start your free trial today.