The 99PI Anniversary Special: 15 for 15

Summary

99% Invisible: The 15th Anniversary Special – “15 for 15”

Podcast: 99% Invisible
Host: Roman Mars
Producer/Moderator: Vivian Le
Date: September 2, 2025
Theme: Marking 15 years of 99% Invisible, Roman Mars and producer Vivian Le answer 15 questions (plus a bonus) from listeners and staff, reflecting on design, the show’s growth, and personal moments from the podcast’s history.

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Episode Overview

Celebrating the 15th anniversary of 99% Invisible, Roman Mars departs from the usual deep-dive format. Instead, he tackles 15 thoughtful (and sometimes playful) questions submitted by listeners and team members, with Vivian Le moderating. The episode offers a behind-the-scenes look at the show’s evolution, Roman’s design philosophy, and personal anecdotes from the past decade and a half—punctuated by laughter, candid admissions, and a few moving moments.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. 15 Years of 99% Invisible

• Roman reflects on the show’s growth and its original release in September 2010.
• Listener stories, feedback, and curiosity have shaped the show and helped it expand its definition of design.
  “Fifteen years of you, our listeners, sending us the most incredible observations about the built environment that we never would have noticed on our own.” — Roman Mars [01:10]

2. How to Make a City 10% Better—Without Spending Money

[03:02]

• Question from Taylor (New Jersey): You can only rearrange, remove, or repurpose existing resources.
• Roman’s answer: Dedicated rapid bus lanes using existing buses.
  “Take every bus…school buses, public transit buses, and just have a lane, have them run every 10 minutes between places that are important. You will make a city tremendously better.” — Roman [03:34]
• Acknowledges that true zero-budget fixes are rare and meaningful improvements typically require investment.

3. Defining “Design”—How the Show’s Perspective Has Changed

[05:09]

• Taya (Seattle): Has Roman’s definition of design changed?
• Roman: Initially focused on buildings, cities, products, and visual design, but always intended for a broad definition.
  “I always thought of it (design) pretty broadly. It has gotten more broad over time... as the show opened up and had more people in it and more brains on, it has evolved because of their interests.” — Roman [05:37]
• Staff diversity and interests have further expanded the show’s definition.

4. Designs Worth Another Chance: The Case for Cash

[07:11]

• Asked to pick a designed object (other than the funicular) that deserves a revival, Roman chooses cash.
• He worries about social and economic exclusion in a cashless society and the loss of both practicality and artistry of paper currency. “I think there’s something that we will lose… there’s a societal cost at risk when we lose cash completely.” — Roman [07:44]

5. Untold Story: The Brannock Device

[10:00]

• Roman admits fascination with the Brannock device (the metal tool for measuring feet in shoe stores). “They've made one thing. And that is that thing. They've made that metal thing in different colors... I'm just kind of fascinated by it.” — Roman [10:19]
• Finds beauty in its elegant, simple design and singular company focus.

6. 99PI's Letterboxd “Top 4 Movies”

[12:23]

• Prompted to pick four movies that define 99% Invisible’s taste or vibe.
  • Jaws — For its multi-genre brilliance and layered storytelling.
  • The Godfather — A classic with depth and intrigue.
  • Fargo (Coen Brothers) — For its tonal balance of humor, horror, and human nature.
  • Perfect Days (Wim Wenders) — Most “99PI” movie; about a man cleaning Tokyo’s public toilets, with a focus on ritual, care, and the unnoticed beauty of everyday life. “If everyone watched it, the world would be a better place. Like, it really teaches you about contentment.” — Roman on Perfect Days [15:31]

7. Changing the U.S. Constitution — Eliminate the Electoral College

[17:17]

• Producer Joe Rosenberg asks: What’s one constitutional change you'd make?
• Roman: Abolish the electoral college for direct presidential election.
  “I’d much rather have the tyranny of the majority than the tyranny of the minority.” — Roman [17:40]

8. Design-Related Hill to Die On: Anti-Efficiency

[18:14]

• Roman rails against the relentless pursuit of efficiency for its ability to destroy good things—journalism, pop culture, city life. “The idea that you're trying to get things to be as efficient as possible is actually a terrible, world-destroying idea…” — Roman [19:02]
• Praises the creative potential and social good in inefficiency.

9. Roman’s Memphis Odd Jobs

[21:40]

• Gelsey Bennett: Was Roman a Papa John’s delivery guy in Memphis?
• Yes—Roman details delivering pizzas for his cousin’s Papa John’s locations and working at a Germantown video store and a grocery.

10. The 99PI Episode Production Process

[24:13]

• From pitch to air, an episode can take about 16 weeks.
• Steps: Pitch, reporting/interviews, script, “read to tape” (table read), group notes (“Can We Get Here Faster?” and “Relentlessly Chronological” are common script critiques), audio draft (“listen edit”), further group feedback, final mix. “Every story has been touched by… at least five or six people. Like, it really takes a lot.” — Roman [29:38]
• Vivian likens the process to turning a story into “soup” and then a “butterfly.”

11. Ultimate 99PI Merch: A Dieter Rams-Designed Podcast Player

[34:16]

• Editor Kelly Prime asks for dream merch.
• Roman’s pick: A minimalist, Rams-esque dedicated podcast player. “A dedicated podcast player… maybe a little bit of a screen on it… but yeah, I think something like that.” — Roman [36:02]

12. What Would “1% Visible” Be?

[36:32]

• Guest Gillian Jacobs: What if 99PI focused on the visible 1%?
• Roman sees a possible show explaining tactile or infrastructural things (“how stuff works”), focusing less on stories and more on the direct, physical function of everyday systems.

13. Object to Explain Humanity to Aliens

[37:35]

• Roman’s pick: The Golden Gate Bridge. “It looks like what it does. Its design and physics and stuff is on display, and it’s beautiful.” — Roman [37:44]

14. Most Emotionally Manipulative Design Element

[38:13]

• Faces and eyes—on tip jars, delivery robots, pets.
• Also: Music in storytelling and movies. “Anything that has eyes or looks like somebody’s watching you is probably the most emotionally manipulative stuff you encounter on a daily basis.” — Roman [39:54]

15. Biggest Change in Thinking About Storytelling or Design

[40:24]

• Roman initially believed great content had to be brief (five-minute polished stories). Now embraces longer, more conversational formats—even “three hours of two dudes talking about fuck.”
  “I just sort of forgave myself and gave myself the permission to create one on my own.” — Roman [41:27]

16. Blame for Flag Redesign Mania (Bonus)

[42:07]

• Vivian asks if Roman feels responsible for flag redesign trends after his viral 2015 TED talk.
• Roman admits he (and the show) influenced hundreds of city flag redesigns. He cautions against design orthodoxy, encouraging meaningful differences.
  “Occasionally… people create a lot of Chicago-style flags instead of something kinda cool and on their own… The key is: Love your flag. Use your flag. Like, it's a resource that's wasted if not.” — Roman [47:16]

17. The Twins: From Tiny Letter Ads to College (Bonus)

[49:11]

• Listener Tina asks about Roman’s twins and their feelings about being part of the show.
• Roman: They’re heading to college, are proud of their early cameos, and understand their role in the show's early financial foundation. “This empire was built on the charm of those twins.” — Roman [49:48]
• Maslow and Carver (the twins) appear at the very end, sharing their plans and gratitude.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the show’s arc:
  “This year marks the 15th anniversary of 99% Invisible, which is honestly kind of hard to believe… If 99% Invisible were a person, it would be old enough to have a provisional driver’s license in some states.” — Roman [01:10]

• On design and inclusion:
  “The openness of cash as a system is super important and it'll be a shame if it goes away completely.” — Roman [09:03]

• On the “rigorous but gentle” editing culture:
  “I take real pride in that… Like most people who've done a tour through the show have comment[ed] that when they do this in other places, it's not so fun.” — Vivian [30:02]

• On emotionally manipulative design:
  “If your kids weren’t cute, if your dog wasn’t cute… you would never endure them in other ways if they didn’t have these just cute little faces.” — Roman [39:54]

• On personal change:
  “It is funny that the lesson that you learned after 15 years of making a podcast is that you like podcasts. Exactly.” — Vivian and Roman [41:36]

• On the show's early ads and his twins:
  “Honestly, this empire was built on the charm of those twins. If we didn't have that as a sponsor in the very beginning, I do not know if we would be here today.” — Roman [49:48]

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Timestamps of Key Questions

• [03:02] — How to improve a city (bus lanes)
• [05:09] — Definition of design
• [07:11] — Forgotten design worth reviving (cash)
• [10:00] — Untold story: The Brannock device
• [12:23] — 99PI’s “Letterboxd Four” films
• [17:17] — Constitutional change: Electoral college
• [18:14] — Hill to die on: Anti-efficiency
• [21:40] — Roman’s time as a pizza delivery guy
• [24:13] — How a 99PI episode is made
• [34:16] — Dream merch item (Dieter Rams podcast player)
• [36:32] — What if 99PI were “1% Visible”?
• [37:35] — Show aliens a designed object
• [38:13] — Most emotionally manipulative design
• [40:24] — Changed thinking on storytelling
• [42:07] — Flag redesign “blame”
• [49:11] — The twins: updates and reflections

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Episode Tone

• Warm, open, and self-effacing
• Playful (Vivian teasing Roman throughout)
• Occasionally introspective and moving (notably in the discussion about his kids and the end segment)

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Final Note

This anniversary special pulls back the curtain on 99% Invisible, showing the human hands behind its polished product and exploring how the show—and Roman Mars—have evolved. It's a must-listen for longtime fans, but even new listeners will find its stories about design, process, and personal growth both insightful and endearing.

Transcript

[Roman Mars]

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[Roman Mars]

This is 99% invisible. I'm Roman Mars. So here's the thing. This year marks the 15th anniversary of 99% invisible, which is honestly kind of hard to believe. If 99% invisible were a person, it would be old enough to have a provisional driver's license in some states or celebrate a quinceanera. That's kind of all you can do at age 15 in this country. But still. The first episode of 99% invisible was released on September 3, 2010. And since then we've had 15 years of stories about design, architecture, and the choices we make that shape our world. Fifteen years of taking the time to stop and read the plaque. Fifteen years of you, our listeners, sending us the most incredible observations about the built environment that we never would have noticed on our own. To mark this milestone, we thought we'd do something a little different. Instead of our usual deep dive into one particular design story, I'm going to answer 15 questions submitted by our listeners and the staff about the show, about the field of design, and about me. And to help me navigate this whole thing, I'm joined by 99 PI producer Vivian Le, who will be moderating the questions.

[Vivian Le]

Hi Roman. Happy birthday.

[Roman Mars]

Thank you so much. I'm a little nervous, but I think we'll get through this together.

[Vivian Le]

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, granting me the power to choose these questions was a very bold Move on your part. So we'll see how this goes. We got a lot of fun questions. Some of them were submitted through email, Some came through social media, our Discord server.

[Roman Mars]

Oh, nice.

[Vivian Le]

And a bunch of them I just made up because I thought it'd be really funny for you to answer on Mike. So, yeah, I'm ready to jump if you are.

[Roman Mars]

I am ready. Let's go for it.

[Vivian Le]

Okay, great. So the first question came from Taylor from New Jersey. Shout out to New Jersey, my second favorite state. But Taylor actually has kind of a doozy of a question for you. They ask, a city hires you to make their residents lives 10% better without spending any money. You could only rearrange, remove, or repurpose things that already exist.

[Roman Mars]

What do you do without spending any money?

[Vivian Le]

No, no. And you can't create anything. It's basically just redoing what already exists.

[Roman Mars]

Okay, so I have one idea. I don't know if it completely fulfills the idea of no money, but if rearranging, removing, repurposing works, I feel like all those things involve a little bit of money, honestly. But I think the best way to make a city better would be dedicated rapid bus lanes, which I think if you have the buses and you have the lanes and you just need to paint them and mark them, I think it kind of fulfills the mandate of the question. But that would be like regular. Take every bus. You have school buses, public transit buses, and just have a lane, have them run every 10 minutes between places that are important. You will make a city tremendously better. I don't know if it's really free, but I also like not to quibble with Taylor. Just in general. The whole concept of fixing stuff without money is a thing that I find is a weird political thing that people talk about that is like, no, we actually throw money at things that we value and that's okay. But I would throw a little bit of money at this. I think it's much cheaper than light rail and various other solutions. It really is a rearrangement of resources and the emphasis on making a city a better place. But rapid, very frequent bus routes between places would be huge, dedicated bus lanes. That means they run smoothly because there's no other cars in the lane. I think that's how I'd make a city better. Almost any city would be made better by that.

[Vivian Le]

Yeah, it's pretty good. So the next question is actually a voice message, so I'm going to play it for you.

[Various Voice Message Contributors (e.g., Taya, Connor Harrington, Kelly Prime, Gillian Jacobs)]

Hey, this is Taya from Seattle and I'm really excited to congratulate the Entire team at 99% visible. And thank you for being such an awesome part of my life for the past 15 years. And I'm just asking for 15 more. My question is for Roman. I'm wondering, in the time that you've been doing this, has your definition of design changed at all? And if so, how? Thanks.

[Roman Mars]

I always interpreted it pretty broadly, even when the show started, but I think in the beginning when you're trying to, you know, like when you're trying to sort of present a thesis to an audience, you keep it a little bit tighter with like, buildings and cities and product design and flags and, you know, things with, you know, visual design. And I always knew that I thought of design quite broadly and the reason why I chose the name 99% invisible and not a blank design or the design of things or whatever was because I thought that that name was so evocative and open ended to the idea of what we could include in it in terms of design. So I always thought of it pretty broadly. It has gotten more broad over time. Like when I think about, like there's. I mean, I never would have conceived of the Quiet Storm episode of Christopher's like in 99% invisible, but I love it. And I think that's one of the things that's the way that my definition of design has evol. Is that as the show opened up and had more people in it and more brains on, has evolved because of their interests. And then I'm such a fan of our staff that I just, I like to follow them wherever they go. And it comes to this as a sort of the mandate of design and that has necessarily broadened it because there's just more minds on the show than there was before. So in that way, it's evolved.

[Vivian Le]

Yeah. Okay, so next question. This one came from our discord and it was from someone with the name yfnh. Catchy. Okay, so they are asking, barring the noble funicular, what's the one designed object that's fallen out of common use that you think deserves another chance?

[Roman Mars]

I mean, the first thing comes to mind, and this is not, I don't. This is not a strongly held belief, but I think cash.

[Vivian Le]

Like money. Like paper money.

[Roman Mars]

Like paper money. Like, I know that I like all the tools of tapping and Venmo and various things, and I get it, but I feel like we are going down a path of having our economy locked up by apps and things and the messiness of the economy and looseness of giving change and Giving tips and paying for cash and not being banked. And, you know, I. I think that there's something that we will lose. And, and, and it has potentially, like, big downsides down the line. I think that there's a. There's kind of an inherent classism in the loss of cash. I think that there's. I think there's a lot of control there that I'm. I'm. I'm feeling queasy about when I see. When I go to a place that says they. They don't accept any cash. It's not a strongly held belief. And I love all the conveniences. I'm not saying that those things are bad. I'm just saying that I think there's a cost. I think there's a societal cost at risk when we lose cash completely.

[Vivian Le]

I think that's actually a really great answer.

[Roman Mars]

Okay, thanks.

[Vivian Le]

It's a great answer because I feel like every country too, when they print their own banknotes, it's something like a little piece of artwork.

[Roman Mars]

Oh, that's another part of it that I wasn't thinking about, but totally. I think that as much as I think art, paper money is so boring and so awful, like, that's the part I don't love. Like, I wish it would. We would expand it to have, like, leaders in science and art and poets and stuff on our money the way every other country in the world does, and better colors and everything, you know, as a representation of kind of a civic pride. That's another huge loss. Totally a huge loss. But, yeah, all around cash. Like, I feel like there's. There's great opportunity there to represent our best selves. And I also just think that the openness of cash as a system is super important and it'll be a shame if it goes away completely.

[Vivian Le]

So our next question came from someone named Connor Hibbs. He submitted this through email. He actually submitted two questions and cheated. I'm gonna ask one of those questions.

[Roman Mars]

Run a tight ship here.

[Vivian Le]

I'm sorry, Connor. So what is something you come across in your everyday life that intrigues you, but you haven't created a story about.

[Roman Mars]

Oh, I've had this long standing desire to do a story about the Brannock device. Do you know what the Brannock device is?

[Vivian Le]

No. Tell me more.

[Roman Mars]

Okay. The Brannock device is that metal foot measuring tool that is in shoe stores.

[Vivian Le]

Yes, yes.

[Roman Mars]

I've always kind of loved them. I don't go to shoe stores much anymore, but as a kid, like, they're fun to play with. They're like heavy and they're fun to put your foot in. And they're kind of. They have an ASMR quality to them. Like, you mess with them and you're measuring something. And I researched them once because I thought, like, everyone loves this thing. This is the greatest thing. And I found that the Brannock Company of Syracuse, New York, that's the only thing they've made. Like, and I think they've. They've. I don't even know, maybe 100 years. I have no idea. I can't remember the research I did on it. But. But they've made one. One thing. And that is that thing. They've made that metal thing in different colors, I think, recently. But it's. They make this one thing. It's called the Brannock device, is named after the founder of the company. And I'm just kind of fascinated by it, for sure.

[Vivian Le]

And it is. I never really thought about it. It's in every single Payless, every single shoe store. And it's. They're solving a problem that you could solve with a ruler. Essentially something that you probably already have.

[Roman Mars]

It does width and height of the shoe and then translates it into shoe size and stuff. It's a pretty simple thing. But it's like the fact that it is so simple and there's like these, you know, there's new ways to kind of do it. Like they have you stand on a digital thing and they do your. Measure your foot. I've never really done those before, but I just think that there's an elegance to it. There's like a weight to it and like a history to it that I just thought, oh, there's probably something cool here. I just don't, I don't know what it is for sure, but. And so in a way, I can't. I could never, like, pitch it to the staff. I've told some, some people about it, but like, I feel like I'd have to just go there and see what the vibe of those folks was like and see what their deal was.

[Vivian Le]

One day.

[Roman Mars]

One day. One day.

[Vivian Le]

We'll send you there one day. Great. Okay, so our next question is another voice message. It's from another Connor. About a third of our listeners are named Connor. So here's Connor.

[Roman Mars]

Hey, Roman. This is Connor Harrington, a longtime listener, first time caller from lovely Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. Now, I'm a big fan of another pod that you made an excellent guest appearance on Blank Check. So my question for you is, what would 99pi's 4 favorites be if the pod had A letterboxd account. Nice. Should you explain letterboxd? I'm not on letterboxd, but I know it.

[Vivian Le]

So do you know what the question's asking you specifically?

[Roman Mars]

I do.

[Vivian Le]

You do? Okay. So for listeners who might not know, letterboxd is like a social media platform, basically, where you'll post about movies that you watched, and you can make lists of things that you just watched. Basically, it's a way for, like, movie buffs to find each other and talk about movies and that kind of thing.

[Roman Mars]

It's a way to. It's a way to turn an enjoyable thing into work.

[Vivian Le]

As far as Gamify. Yeah, Gamify. Something that should be relaxing.

[Roman Mars]

Exactly.

[Vivian Le]

But, yeah, it's a really popular platform with movie buffs. And so there's something called the Letterboxd 4, where you will basically post what are your top four movies? And that doesn't mean what do you think are the best movies? It's kind of what are your favorite movies? And it's become a little bit of, like, a Myers Briggs personality test. So what you put in your letterbox four kind of defines a little bit your personality. So I think Connor here is asking, what are 99PI's letterboxd for?

[Roman Mars]

It's hard for me to know, like, what 99 PI's 1 is. I can kind of just do me, I guess, but maybe they'll give some window into 99pi. But I always say that my favorite movie, it's very basic. Jaws has been my favorite movie forever because I think it is the best buddy comedy. I think it's the best adventure movie. I think it's one of the best horror movies, and it's all rolled into one. And when you watch it over and over again, different parts of it are emphasized and you forget about little bits. I've seen it so many times, and I'm stunned by, in the beginning, how much information is. Is, like, conveyed about the island and the city as Brody is walking around and people are cross talking over each other. And I just love it. I love it. I really like. My favorite movies are all kind of sprawling with different sections that have different tones. I think another one is the Godfather. Again, so basic. I get. It's not. I'm not trying to, you know, surprise you here necessarily. I'm a huge Coen Brothers guy. I think, again, I know that I have a hard time separating best and favorite, but I think their best and my favorite is Fargo. Again, it balances tons of tones. I think it's super funny. I think it's super harrowing, and I think it tells you a lot about human nature, and I can watch it again and again. The most recent movie that I would say the most 99 PI movie, and the. The one that really, like, knocked me out recently is Perfect Days. I think that's.

[Vivian Le]

I haven't seen that one.

[Roman Mars]

Oh, it's so good. It's like Vim Benders, who's, like a classic, like, you know, indie auteur type, but it's about a guy who is just making his way cleaning public toilets in Tokyo. And it just. It's just the greatest. Has great music, it has a great vibe. I think it could, like, if everyone watched it, the. The world would be a better place. Like, it really teaches you about. And contentment, and I just. I think it's super beautiful.

[Vivian Le]

I mean. Yeah. Cleaning toilets in Tokyo set to nice music sounds like a 99pi episode in and of itself.

[Roman Mars]

It feels like it. Like it has a kind of. An underlying kind of spiritualism that I sometimes feel with 99pi. Like, specifically, like, we would never do something so unstory like as that one. It's more of, like, a mood, but it's. It has just, like, appreciation of urban landscape, of ritual, of care. You know, it has that feeling that I think people. People told me about the show. Like, I was. I don't know if I knew. I was embedding it in the show in the very beginning. But this sort of sense that when you notice design details, you notice that you're being cared for by people. Like, you notice that things are being made better for you. And this is a movie that's just about that. About, like, somebody who's making the world better for other people and. And just finding great contentment in that and contentment in the world, and it's just lovely. You really should watch it. I think you would like it. And it has just the greatest soundtrack because he also. He buys cassette tapes, like, used cassette tapes of Velvet Underground and stuff like that. The music is so good, so it's great.

[Vivian Le]

Okay, I promise I'm gonna watch this one, and I will post on our movie club Slack channel as soon as I watch this. Sounds good. Okay, so the next question came from somebody here on staff at 99pi who you will probably recognize. Hey, Roman. This is Joe. You know me. Now that you're such an expert on con law, if you were allowed to make one serious change to the Constitution, what would it be?

[Roman Mars]

So that, of course, is our producer, Joe Rosenberg. I think you just have to eliminate the electoral college. I think that's. I think that's it. I mean, I think that everything good follows from that. That sort of weird proportional weight and sort of the tyranny of the minority and all that sort of stuff just goes away. I'd much rather have the tyranny of the majority than the tyranny of the minority. And a lot of the horrible stuff unwinds when you have the popular election of the president. I think it's a huge. I think it's a huge thing. That's what I'd change first.

[Vivian Le]

Got it. So the next question is, what's a design related hill you're willing to die on?

[Roman Mars]

I don't want to die on any hill. I don't think. I mean, mostly when it comes to certain design things or design movements, truly the answer is nothing. I can be convinced by a good story or a good reason for any ugly thing to exist or whatever if it's really thoughtful and done right. That was the whole premise of the show, is that I wanted people, if they couldn't see the ugly building because we were doing this on the radio or in podcasting, that they could learn to love it before they learned to hate it by seeing it. You know what I mean? But the one that's sticking with me, and this is going to be kind of abstract and I don't know if this is going to come off well, is that.

[Vivian Le]

Let's go there.

[Roman Mars]

Is the idea of the march to make things more and more efficient makes the world a worse place. And I think that this, in terms of advertising, like the idea that we were going to efficiently measure how effective advertising was through clicks and eyeballs and stuff, erased all of the extra money that made all the journalism and all the pop culture that you cared about in the 20th century, it made it all possible. The inefficiency of the advertising system made everything good in this world. I think that the idea that you're trying to get things to be as efficient as possible is actually a terrible world destroying idea. And all it does is like. Like the most efficient restaurant is like a ghost kitchen that has no storefront because that's inefficient, because it could be empty sometimes. And it's a ghost kitchen that just ships you a thing and has a underpaid delivery person and brings it to your door and you never leave. And this is stripping away all the goodness of the world in those cities. Like, I think efficiency is absolute garbage. And that is the design related hill I'm Willing to die on. Like I feel like you should always be allow. Allowing for great deals of inefficiency to make a nice design city, a nice design system and make it work. I really hate the focus on efficiency. Not only does it destroys all these good things, it takes money and gives it to the worst people, like the platform creators and the tech people. Instead of all the loose empty change and tips and things. It's not like things are cheaper or things are better. They just money is being transferred to the wrong people instead of creators and people who make the world a better place through community and creation.

[Various Voice Message Contributors (e.g., Taya, Connor Harrington, Kelly Prime, Gillian Jacobs)]

Yeah.

[Vivian Le]

A more efficient world is a place where more people are left out. Essentially. The more people you can be more inefficient, the more people that are included.

[Roman Mars]

Yeah, totally. You need friction. You need the space of creation, that open freedom of an inefficient system where money sloshes around inside of it. These frictions and inefficiencies are what make everything good about the world. Yeah. So if you can handle that big abstraction, that is the design related hill, I'm willing to die on.

[Vivian Le]

I mean, that's a great spicy hill to die on.

[Roman Mars]

So I want to hear nothing about how good efficiency is or the department of Government efficiency nonsense. That is the worst world that we're building when we do efficient things.

[Vivian Le]

Yep. Okay, next question. So Gelsey Bennett on Instagram, was wondering when you were delivering pizzas in Memphis restaurant, were you delivering for.

[Roman Mars]

Okay, so my cousin, my beloved cousin Lynn Kruthers, who passed away several years ago, she was the manager, regional manager of seven locations of Papa John's throughout Memphis.

[Vivian Le]

Wow.

[Roman Mars]

And so when I was extremely broke, I left grad school. I was moving out to San Francisco to do something. I didn't know what was going to happen. I delivered pizzas in her restaurants and I would say so I mostly worked out of the Bartlett location. That's kind of outside of Memphis. The big store was the Midtown store. I worked there a little bit and lived in Midtown. So if you had Papa John's delivered to you in Midtown, but especially like Bartlett and Cordova, like kind of outside Memphis, north of Memphis, you may have gotten a pizza from me. This would be in the mid-90s.

[Vivian Le]

You were a Papa John's guy then.

[Roman Mars]

I was a Papa John's guy. I mean, I was never a Papa John's guy, but that was the job that was offered to me. So in addition, if you grew up in Memphis in the 80s and 90s, I worked at a. My cousin Lynn owned a Video store called Video Stop in Germantown, Tennessee. And you might have gotten movies rented by me. And this was when I was way underage. I worked there all growing up, and I worked at the Cecil's Bag and Groceries. So I worked a lot in Memphis during the summers and during breaks and stuff like that. And then at one point, I was talking with Chuck Bryant of Stuff youf Should Know, who grew up in Germantown, Tennessee, and was a huge movie fan and ended up moving out to Los Angeles to work in movies before he started his podcast career. And we determined that he very likely was a customer at the video store that I was a clerk at.

[Vivian Le]

Hilarious. So, side story, Jason De Leon, who's one of the producers here at the show, but Jason used to do a lot of Brazilian Jiu Jitsu and go to tournaments, and he's gone to a few in Southern California. And I, at one point, would be like a videographer for a jiu jitsu competition. There's a chance that I might have.

[Roman Mars]

Recorded Jason, some type of Jason, like.

[Vivian Le]

In some kind of, like, camera lock or something.

[Roman Mars]

That's awesome. I love it. Cool.

[Vivian Le]

Okay, so our next question came from our discord again from a user named ASG1982, and they ask, what goes into making a 99pi episode? Obviously, there's research in a script, but what are the steps of how it happens, and where do all the background people fit in? That's kind of a big question coming from a background person.

[Roman Mars]

Well, that's funny, because I've always thought, well, background person is not how I would phrase our staff. One of the things I love about the show is I think that people have gotten to know all of the producers and their personalities through the show. I mean, definitely I have a big imprint on the show, but I think a lot of people's taste and stuff comes out. But what's really interesting is how much everyone works on every show in some way. So the process of putting together an episode, I think, is kind of around 16 weeks at this point. Like, that's how we count on it. They sometimes come in faster, but we don't count on them to being much quicker than that. And a person pitches a story, it gets greenlit, and then they go report it for a while, just, like, find out stuff, interview people. They get assigned an editor, and that editor works with them to try to realize the sort of the potential of both what they're finding and what people desired in the pitch. And then it comes into form as a script that those Two people mostly work on together. And then that's the first time I see it at that point is when it's a script and we do what we call a read to tape. But I think most people might know it as like a table read where essentially we just do it. We perform it live and a bunch of people are in the room. I mean, this is all zoom used to be in one room, but now it's all on Zoom. And people put notes like in a Google Doc all along as like we're performing it and playing the tape that's been cut and they're probably like, I don't know when we're done. Like hundreds, Hundreds of notes. Yeah, hundreds of comments.

[Vivian Le]

An overwhelming amount of comments.

[Roman Mars]

In a way, it's like a pretty brutal process. But everyone is really kind and everyone, I think is like, we're trying to get to the best thing. And I think that everyone has been trained to recognize that this is good, this is a good process. I've always liked our edits. I've been in other rooms or heard horror stories of other rooms about edits where people leave crying and stuff like that. People can leave frustrated because there's a lot to do and stuff like that. But we don't have a culture of cutting each other down here. No, no, no. We do have some brutal shorthands for things. Like over time, like so all the notes come in and sometimes they're like, oh, I like this person or dislike this, or we should move this part to here or whatever. But we have some shorthands in the edit. So there's like somebody will put in cw G, H, F. Did I do that right? C W, G, H, F. Which is, can we get here faster? Which is one of those ones where.

[Vivian Le]

Like, like and it comes up, up in every single script. It's like, when is it going to happen?

[Roman Mars]

So can we get here faster? Is one. Oh, Emmett's. I love this one. Relentlessly chronological is something that Emmett said.

[Vivian Le]

Devastating, devastating comment.

[Roman Mars]

And it has to do with like these histories. Sometimes we do these long histories and you just feel like you're plodding along. It just captured something that I felt for a long time but never put words to it. But that sort of sense of just like, oh, but if I skip from 900 AD to 1800, I have to put these three things in between. But like you feel that they're unnecessary and sometimes we just free ourselves from this idea. Just like instead of being relentlessly chronological, just do the parts that are important and fun. And for the story and stop being so relentlessly chronological. Like sometimes the driving force of the action is time and sometimes it's the thesis of the collection of things so that you lead with that first. And so it's just a matter of mixing things up so you don't feel like you're just reading a timeline of events. So relentlessly chronological is a dig that kills me. Yeah, so, yeah. So then there's that big long paper edit with lots of notes. Then there's the producer incorporates those notes and creates an audio version of it. So like I'll get my script and I'll record my parts. They'll record their part parts and put it together. And that becomes what we call listen, edit. And we listen to it all together as a sort of at least a first draft audio file and do the exact same thing. Put all the notes in here and then those notes are incorporated into something called a notes mix. And those are. Instead of us all getting together, we all kind of listen on our own and we put little notes in. Yeah. And then Martin mixes it and then it comes out and it really is like, it's a long process and editing is a much bigger chunk of it than reporting, I would say, for sure. And so every story has been touched by, you know, like at least, you know, five or six people. Like it's a big group effort. Like it really takes a lot.

[Vivian Le]

Yeah, the story gets turned into soup multiple times over several weeks and then it becomes a little episode butterfly by the end of it. It's a nice gentle, but also scary process.

[Roman Mars]

Yeah, it's rigorous, but it's pretty gentle. Like most people who've done a tour through the show have comment and when they do this in other places, it's not so fun.

[Vivian Le]

So I take real pride in that quick story. I do remember my first story was a freelance story and it was my first time ever doing an edit like that. And I came in through, I think it was the zoom. And this was like an hour and a half into like a three hour process. You and Delaney were arguing, I think about like Agent Orange or something. My Internet dropped off and I was gone for 10 minutes and when I came back in, no one noticed I was gone. And you're still like arguing about Agent Orange.

[Roman Mars]

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[Roman Mars]

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[Vivian Le]

Okay, our next question is a voice message and it's someone that you and I will recognize, but. But maybe some of the listeners have not heard their voice very much.

[Various Voice Message Contributors (e.g., Taya, Connor Harrington, Kelly Prime, Gillian Jacobs)]

So my question is, if you could commission any designer, living or dead, to create the ultimate piece of 99% invisible merch, like branded merchandise, what would that merch be? And I ask this as someone who proudly owns and wears one of our brand new 99pi swimsuits.

[Roman Mars]

Oh, that's Kelly Prime.

[Vivian Le]

That is Kelly Prime. Yeah.

[Roman Mars]

She doesn't show up on the show a lot like her voice because she's an editor, but yeah, Kelly Prime's the greatest. Yeah. The funny thing about the swimsuit, just as an aside, was this was presented to us because there's a big merch team at Sirius XM and they're just like, what about this? What about this? What about this? They just kind of like throw things at us. And they presented the idea of the 99 PI swimsuit towel set. And everyone was like, oh my God. What, are you kidding me? That's rid. Ridiculous. And then they would go, but if you make them, can I have one? And so my wife did that. Vivian did that. Almost exactly.

[Vivian Le]

I did that.

[Roman Mars]

And so we just did it because we were like, well, the people that will enjoy this will find it. And. Fantastic. And so let's see the perfect merch. I would love to of like a Dieter Rams designed podcast player that really only pays a podcast. I mean, like, the ipod was definitely based off of Dieter Rams's like, stuff with Braun. Like his little miniature radio looks like an ipod. Like the first generation with the wheel and the white thing with the wheel. Like a dedicated podcast player, you know.

[Vivian Le]

That just podcast only.

[Roman Mars]

It's just podcast only. You know, maybe a little bit of a screen on it so you could see some stuff. You know, it'd have to be sort of Internet enabled. But yeah, I think something like that. Like that, that would be the, like the ultimate thing that I would probably enjoy and would be a nice 99% visible thing. And it's a very niche, very like not very widespread use device, rather than a real piece of merch. But yeah, that's the thing that comes to mind for sure.

[Vivian Le]

Okay, so our next question. It's also a voice message, which I will just play for you now.

[Various Voice Message Contributors (e.g., Taya, Connor Harrington, Kelly Prime, Gillian Jacobs)]

Hey, Roman, it's frequent 99 PI contributor Gillian Jacobs.

[Roman Mars]

And if you were to create a.

[Various Voice Message Contributors (e.g., Taya, Connor Harrington, Kelly Prime, Gillian Jacobs)]

Show called 1% visible, what would it be about?

[Roman Mars]

Well, that's the same thing. I mean, 99% invisible means 1% visible.

[Vivian Le]

So it'd be the exact same show.

[Roman Mars]

Yeah, I mean, I think so, but I do this does bring to mind one thing. Like, we are, I've been thinking about, and we're sort of developing the idea of a show of a less abstract, more tactile kind of how stuff works. Quality of like, of describing infrastructure, of like, I touch a light switch, that wire goes to a wire that goes to a wire that goes to a transformer. That's really about your interacting with how the world works in less of a story way and more of just like, I just don't understand how that works. How does, you know, how does electricity come into my house? That's what that feels like to me as an idea of 1% visible. And that's a thing that we're developing, and I think that would be worth doing, you know, as a 1% visible.

[Vivian Le]

Okay, so next question. If aliens visited Earth and you had to show them one designed object to explain human civilization, what would it be?

[Roman Mars]

Wow, that's a tall order. I don't know. I'm kind of obsessed with my go to answer is the Golden Gate Bridge. I just think it's super gorgeous. And I think it does. It looks like what it does. Like its design and physics and stuff is on display and it's beautiful. And I don't know. That's probably my answer. There might be a deeper answer there, but I just love it. I love looking at it.

[Vivian Le]

It's a really good bridge.

[Roman Mars]

Yeah.

[Vivian Le]

Yep. Okay, next question. What is the most emotionally manipulative piece of design that people encounter daily without realizing it?

[Roman Mars]

I mean, the first thing that comes to mind is, is people. People really react to anything with faces or eyes, I mean, I would say so I have a couple things. The thing they react to are faces and eyes, and they react to music. And one of the things that, like, I love Using music and storytelling because you can just like, get people on board with something you can like. It's so manipulative in just the greatest way possible. And I love using it, you know, all the time. I love movies with good scores in them that are emotionally manipulative. And then in terms of, like, faces and eyes, like, I. I know that there's like. I think there was a study that if you put, like, eyeballs or some kind of human face on a tip jar or, like, people tipped more, I think anything that has eyes or looks like somebody's watching you is probably the most emotionally manipulative stuff that sort of, like, gets you that you encounter on a daily basis. I mean, and this is true, like, cute faces. I mean, if your kids weren't cute, if your dog wasn't cute, like, they just. They make you. They're so. I mean, they're so adorable and they're so annoying. And you would never endure them in other ways if they didn't have these just cute little faces. And so that's the most emotionally manipulative thing, how people use it. Mostly. I think people use it in a benign way. And mostly it's, like, good that you love your children because they have cute faces.

[Vivian Le]

It's mostly good that you love your children. But, yeah, this does remind me of. You know, we get a lot of those, like, autonomous delivery carts here in Los Angeles, and they have these, like, digital interfaces that have, like, an actual face on it that smiles. And it's just like, please don't murder me. I'm just trying to do my job. Yeah, don't knock me over. Don't steal me, please.

[Roman Mars]

It's true. I think that's definitely why those faces are there. I don't know if they work 100% of the time, but it's why they're there for sure.

[Vivian Le]

Okay, so next question. What's something you deeply believed about designer storytelling 15 years ago that you've now completely reversed your thinking on?

[Roman Mars]

Completely, completely reversed. I mean, I mean, the obvious one to me in terms of storytelling and storytelling about design is that, you know, I created what I thought was the thing that the world needed was this perfect little five minute jewel of a story that was kind of like, kind of a story, but more of like an opinion and had a few key facts and, you know, like, something that made me laugh and, you know, whatever. And never thought I would make a show like the Power Broker Breakdown that is like three hours long of two dudes talking about fuck. But I loved making that show. So I've kind of turned around a lot on that, and I just learned that, like, a lot of my favorite podcasts are like that, and I. I just sort of forgave myself and gave myself the permission to create one on my own.

[Vivian Le]

It is funny that the lesson that you learned after 15 years of making a podcast is that you like podcasts. Exactly.

[Roman Mars]

Yeah.

[Vivian Le]

So the next question is from me, because I'm curious if you will answer it. So there are a lot of design lessons that the show has tried to impart out in the world. Like, buses are good. Cities that are walkable are great. So there's a lot of, like, positive design lessons that I think people take from our show. Do you think there are any design decisions that have been unfairly blamed on your influence?

[Roman Mars]

Okay, well, I think I know where this is going, which is. I don't think, unfairly blamed, but it definitely is blame, and I take some of it as being justified. So probably. Probably the biggest cultural reach me or the show has ever had was this 2015 TED talk about flag design and where I sort of enumerated the North American Vexillological Association's principles of flag design as written down by Ted Kay, who was great, and I love this. He has this pamphlet called Good Flag, Bad Flag. I did an episode based off of it and Talking to TED as the sixth episode of this show. And then when I was approached to do a TED Talk, I kind of had this idea of putting together this big, grand theory of design with lots of different stories and stuff, and it wasn't really working. I was trying different parts of it live, and it wasn't really working. But this expanded flag talk was the one that was making people laugh and being fun and putting up pictures of flags and making fun of flags and stuff, and then using the design principles of flags to talk about design principles in general, that they kind of work for almost everything. And the flag talk was really huge. It was bigger than I thought. Like, when I went to TED conference, the former Prime Minister of Australia was there and who had, like, who gave a talk, and he was talking about normalizing trade relationships with China or something. And I was like, oh, my God, in two days, I want to do my dumb flag talk. And now I feel like such a loser, you know? And I did this talk, and it was like, totally a home run. Like, people loved it. There was like a standing ovation. It was so much fun. And the title of the talk was eventually titled by TED as the worst design thing you've Ever not noticed or something like that. And it was about city flags and how city flags need to be better. And I used lots of different examples. And it being released into the world resulted in maybe, I think at this point, 300 or more flag redesigns all around the world. And most of these flag redesigns are just like, old. You know, they put the city seal on a blue field and they're just thoughtless flags, you know, and they've been redesign without too much controversy. And the lesson of the whole thing was if you're in a city that doesn't fly a flag, it's probably because it violates these design principles. And a good way to get to the point where you have a flag that you're proud of is to use these design principles to create one. Because it's this great symbol that nobody owns that everyone can have city pride. And when you see it in action, like when you see it in Chicago, it's amazing. This is amazing unifier that it's. It's on the shoulders of police officers, it's on like hipster tattoos, it's on every type of business uses, like the stars or stripes parts of the Chicago flag. And when it's not well designed, like San Francisco, you barely see it anywhere. And that was the whole point, was to love your flag, have a municipal symbol that nobody owns. And if your flag is bad, it probably violates these principles and maybe redesign it. So it's a good one. But the key is love your flag. Use your flag like it's a resource that's wasted. Okay? And even there's a line at the end that I think people kind of missed, which is, I don't care if your flag is ugly. Like, just use it. Like, use it. Don't let it go to waste. Because otherwise, sports teams and corporations, they take over the identity of a city. And so a lot of people redesign their flag. And I think mostly for the good. I never get involved in flag redesign contests or flag redesign, like drama. Like, my point was just to talk about it as a thing and have people do it, because people should choose what represents them. And using the principles, that's a good way to do it to make a good one. Now, like anything where you're sort of putting a list of things to make things good or a certain orthodoxy gets created. And in that orthodoxy, I think some of the redesigns have had a samey same equality to them. And it was not something that I imagined. Cause I didn't really think it would have that big of an Effect, but especially my praise of the Chicago flag have led people to create a lot of Chicago style flags instead of something like kind of cool and on their own and violate those principles when they're meaningfully worth violating. Like the idea of two to three colors. And I love, for example, the California flag. It says California Republic on it. A flag is supposed to work in two directions, so having words on it is like a bad flag, you know what I mean? Because you see it from the opposite direction, so it's backwards. I don't care. California Republic tells you so much about California and Californians that it still says California Republic on it. I would never change it. And I put out a whole addendum of things on the TED site of flags that violate the principles but are still fantastic. And TED Kay, who wrote the book on this, totally agrees with that type of stuff too thoughtful. Violation of the rules is totally part of it. Adhering so closely to the rules that everything kind of looks like it was made in a very simplistic illustrator type program. And it doesn't have the joy and verve of some of these flags that came up in different ways. I think that there's just a danger of any sort of design orthodoxy on anything. And so I take some blame for that. I know that I was the instigator in that, but I really didn't mean everything should look boring. That was the whole point was just have something that you love so that you flew it. And I think that was the part that was, was like a little bit missed. So I take some blame. But I also like think that my whole point was to make something cool and fun that you would get a tattoo of because you just loved where you were from. And it doesn't matter if your flag is perfect or whatever, it should represent the city in a cool way. That's all I care about.

[Vivian Le]

And to be fair, I think a lot of flags that were inspired by artist ended up better than they were before.

[Roman Mars]

Oh, I think the vast majority did. I would say that 90% of it did. I just think that occasionally there's just like you see especially cause they often do design contests, which I think is a way to flatten creativity. Honestly. It brings in a lot of ideas, but then when people vote on it, they choose the one that is kind of the most anodyne, the most that feels like a flag. And now the idea of what feels like a flag has changed into to kind of something that isn't super inspiring. You should just hire someone to make something cool and to Commission them and make it great and put it out there. And if it is a little more, I don't know, shocking or whatever, that's a good thing. Your city should be unique.

[Vivian Le]

Great. Okay, so that was 15 questions.

[Roman Mars]

Oh, good.

[Vivian Le]

But I also have a bonus here for you. Another voice message. I'm going to play it for you. This is Tina from Germany, and my questions are how Roman's twins are doing and how they are feeling about their cameos in the early episodes of 99pi.

[Roman Mars]

That's a good question. The twins are doing great. Maslow and Carver are about to go to college. I did ask them if it was. If I could say where they're going to college, and they said no.

[Vivian Le]

Smart. Very smart.

[Roman Mars]

But I think they're pretty proud of their role in the show. I mean, they were. For people who don't know, who didn't listen to Early Stages, mailchimp was a sponsor in the very beginning. They had a product called Tiny Letter, and their slogan was email for people with something to say. And my kids were very talkative from a very early age. And I thought it'd be funny if I just would say, hey, Maslow, what do you have to say? Oh, hey, Carver, what do you have to say? And honestly, this empire was built on the charm of those twins. If we didn't have that as a sponsor in the very beginning, I do not know if we would be here today. And so it was a huge part of the show. It made people tune in to the end to hear what they had to say. I think they're quite proud of their role. And when they stopped, I think it was okay for us to stop, but I think they were a little bit. Bit like, you know, because it was like the. The company that just ended the product, and so there was nothing more to do. You know what I mean? And it took me a minute to describe to them that they didn't do anything wrong, that it was just that the thing got canceled.

[Vivian Le]

And wait, they thought it was their fault.

[Roman Mars]

They, you know, it was really Carver who was like, oh. And then. And I was like. But it was, you know, like, they just stopped doing the. They just stopped doing the ads, and it's okay. And, like, people, like, I still love them, and, you know, people still love them. And so getting that lesson to them was like. Was like kind of a sad. And I think today they're pretty proud of it.

[Vivian Le]

And just for comparison, too, how old were they when they first started doing the ads?

[Roman Mars]

Maybe four. They were three when I started and maybe three or four when the ads started running. And they ran for a long time. Six or seven years, something like that.

[Vivian Le]

I did go back in the archives and I did pull one and. And so this is what Maslow used to sound like.

[Roman Mars]

Support for 99% invisible is provided in part by Tiny Letter email for people with something to say. What do you have to say, Maslow?

[Vivian Le]

My favorite thing to talk about is.

[Roman Mars]

Robots and Iron man suits and stuff. Robots and Iron man suits. I would subscribe to that newsletter that makes me cry.

[Vivian Le]

Aw, they're so big now.

[Roman Mars]

They're so big. Big. Yeah. Oh, my goodness. Yeah. Yeah. I love my adult children, but, like, when you're a parent like you, you miss those little. Those little voices. Like, it's. It's so sweet. But yeah. Yeah. I'm so excited for the people that they've grown up to be. They're the. They're. They're. They're the best.

[Vivian Le]

Great. I mean, I guess we're going to leave it on the note of you crying.

[Roman Mars]

Oh, my goodness. Oh, my goodness. Yeah, that works for me. That works for me.

[Vivian Le]

Well, thank you so much, Roman. This has been really fun.

[Roman Mars]

Oh, my pleasure. I've really enjoyed it. Thank you so much. And thanks for all the thoughtful questions. I thought this was actually really like. This was interesting for me too. I'm really into it. This is not bad.

[Vivian Le]

Thanks.

[Roman Mars]

All right. Yeah. Take care, everybody. I appreciate it. Thanks for listening. Maslow, what do you have to say? I'm going to college. As of recording this in just over a month, I'm currently planning to do art and writing. I, like you, are interested in a lot of different things to only my own fault. And I don't think I'll be able to find a job where I can research everything in the world. World. But, you know, maybe you can. Maybe I'll find something. Carver, what do you have to say? I am planning to study physics and communications. I want to become a science communicator and talk about the things that I love and spread information and teach people kind of like what my dad does. Oh, I'm so touched. That's sweet. Okay, well, you know, like, early on, the show didn't have a lot of advertisers. And the ads with youh really was the first solid foundation for the financing of the show. So you basically paid for your own college education by doing tiny letter ads. Oh, wow. I mean, great. I can now tell people I put myself to college. 99% invisible was produced this week by Vivian and also by our wonderful listeners who submitted such thoughtful questions. Mix by Martine Gonzalez Music by Swan Rial Kathy Tu is our executive producer. Kurt Kohlstedt is the digital director. Blaney hall is our senior editor. The rest of the team includes Chris Barube, Jason De Leon, Emmett Fitzgerald, Christopher Johnson, Lashma Dawn, Joe Rosenberg, Kelly Prime, Jacob Medina Gleason, and me, Roman Mars. The 99% invisible logo was created by Stefan Lawrence. We are part of the SiriusXM podcast family now headquartered six blocks north in the Pandora building in beautiful uptown Oakland, California. You can find us on all the usual social media sites as well as our own Discord server. There's a link to that as well as a every past episode 15 years of 99% invisible at 99pi.org.