The Original 100 Objects

Summary

99% Invisible: “The Original 100 Objects”
Host: Roman Mars
Original Air Date: July 21, 2026

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Episode Overview

This episode of 99% Invisible explores the origins, impact, and guiding principles behind the seminal BBC podcast and radio series A History of the World in 100 Objects, in conversation with its original host, Neil MacGregor. As Roman Mars embarks on a new American-focused 100 Objects series for the BBC, he seeks advice and reflections from MacGregor about how objects—especially everyday ones—can tell broader stories about nations, cultural exchange, and human experience. The episode blends behind-the-scenes stories, philosophical questions about museums and history, and practical advice for Mars’ new project.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Genesis and Aims of “A History of the World in 100 Objects”

[01:30–04:00]

• The BBC’s ambitious plan to create 100 interconnected radio episodes—each focused on a single object—was unprecedented and intimidating.
  • Neil MacGregor: “We had no idea how it was going to be received at all. And in a strange way, the project began really almost as an internal project in the British Museum.” [02:59]
• The project’s format and scope were shaped by the museum’s Enlightenment-era mission: show the history of humanity through objects, not just art.
• The team structured the series chronologically, grouping weeks by themes (e.g., Power, 1000 BCE) and encouraging curators to find connections between otherwise unconnected world civilizations.

[04:00–07:00]

• Choosing the objects involved lively but collegial debates; the process asked curators to think anthropologically, comparing objects across cultures and finding universal experiences.

Memorable Insight:

• Neil MacGregor: “There was no connection between ancient Egypt and ancient China, so no Egyptologist was likely to have asked what in my collection might relate to something that's happening at the same time in China. ...It allowed them all...to look at familiar objects and ask a totally new kind of question and suggest the commonalities of human behavior. Wherever we are, we all behave roughly, equally badly, equally well, and surprisingly, more or less in the same way.” [05:15]

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2. Giving a Voice to the Voiceless Through Objects

[07:00–08:30]

• MacGregor emphasizes the aim to use objects to tell the stories of people without written histories—makers and users rather than just those in power.
  • Neil MacGregor: “History is...just written history, that limits you immediately to that small bit of humanity that wrote...So part of our project was to have a history told by people that had never been able to tell their story, by the makers, through the things they're made.” [07:45]

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3. The Power of Audio Storytelling for Visual Subjects

[08:29–11:10]

• Both Mars and MacGregor reflect on the oddity and benefits of using radio to convey visually rich topics.
  • Neil MacGregor: “If you can only hear something, then you have to imagine what it is, and you can take possession of something you imagine much more fully than something you just see reproduced in front of you.” [09:11]
• The “biographies of objects” approach turns each object into a character, imbuing ordinary or overlooked items with narrative power and emotional resonance.

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4. Personal Connection, Public Perception

[11:20–12:40]

• MacGregor notes that speaking as a storyteller, not an institutional director, invites a personal connection with the public.
  • Neil MacGregor: “If you speak a lot on the radio, people feel they know you...one of the things...is that it allowed us to reaffirm the fact that the public collections in Britain, as in the United States, are not the collections of the state, but the collections of the people.” [11:45 | 12:01]

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5. Structuring and Sequencing History

[12:42–15:55]

• The chronological structure emphasized how technological dependence and growing global interconnectedness shape history.
• MacGregor argues against the possibility of a “single national story” not situated in global context:
  • Neil MacGregor: “The idea of a national history is unthinkable without situating that nation absolutely in the global context.” [14:33]
• The “beginning” of such a chronology is especially tricky because prehistoric objects require imaginative interpretation, sometimes offering more open-ended possibility than recorded history.

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6. Respect and Reverence for Objects with Sacred Significance

[16:16–17:16]

• Handling objects that are or were sacred brings ethical and practical dilemmas.
  • Neil MacGregor: “How one ought then, with proper reverence, proper respect, hold or touch this object without having those beliefs...How do we address an Australian aboriginal object which may have sacred resonances in a respectful way?” [16:38]

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7. Encounters with Makers—Past and Present

[17:17–19:06]

• The transition from ancient objects to contemporary ones (e.g., interviewing David Hockney about his prints) brought a new, exciting dimension to the series and allowed living creators to reflect on meaning and impact.

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8. Choosing the “Last” Object

[19:06–22:20]

• Listeners were invited to suggest final objects; the team chose between a globalized football shirt and a solar-powered rechargeable mobile phone.
  • Neil MacGregor: “The mobile phone seemed to us to be the equivalent of the hand axe...the first technology that had enabled humans to move around the world, and this latest one that enabled humans to communicate around the world.” [19:55]

Notable Passage:

• Neil MacGregor: "Solar power at a stroke removes that [political] power, removes that political control. So it seemed to us to be in many, many ways an emblem of liberation, an emblem of the growing technologies which change our lives and then we become dependent on them." [21:28]

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9. The Legacy and Philosophy of the Series

[22:52–23:54]

• MacGregor reflects on the series’ impact in popularizing the idea that every object has a “biography” and a user’s dignity, and that history can—and should—be told through the everyday, not just grand events.
  • Neil MacGregor: “What it does as a history is it takes away the great moments that we’re taught. You don’t have the Battle of Waterloo. ... So it opens the way to other histories told by other people.” [23:30]

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10. Navigating Contested Meanings and Ethical Limits

[24:15–28:21]

• The series often confronted differing interpretations of objects, especially regarding indigenous artifacts or objects sacred to some but open for scholarly inquiry by others.
  • Neil MacGregor: “Am I not to be allowed to pursue certain lines of inquiry because it might offend your beliefs? That's a huge question. ... We can't take that position with the same confidence...today in relation to other beliefs outside the European experience.” [25:13–25:47]
• Sometimes the only recourse was simply to present the facts and gently allude to the controversies.

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11. Advice for the U.S. 100 Objects Project

[28:25–31:44]

• MacGregor suggests Mars consider objects like tobacco and blue jeans—items that originated in America but transformed the world’s habits and identities.
  • Neil MacGregor: “That’s where the history of the US is the history of the world. I hope some of your objects will be chosen really to make that point.” [30:29]
• Mars describes including seemingly mundane but world-changing things, such as the standardization of the 60-degree threaded screw, to open new avenues of historical storytelling.

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12. Endurance and Creative Fatigue

[31:44–32:17]

• Light-hearted advice from MacGregor: expect a mid-project slump, but keep pushing—listeners are engaged and need these stories.

  • Neil MacGregor: “Yes, that’s exactly the object at which you will wonder, why am I doing this? Can I bear to go on? Am I ever going to get to the end? Is anybody still listening?...Well, you will, and they are, and we need it.” [31:54–32:17]

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Notable Quotes

• “The main purpose of doing history through objects was we wanted to allow people who don't have a voice to be heard.” — Neil MacGregor [07:13].
• “If you can only hear something, then you have to imagine what it is, and you can take possession of something you imagine much more fully than something you just see reproduced in front of you.” — Neil MacGregor [09:11].
• “The idea of a national history is unthinkable without situating that nation absolutely in the global context.” — Neil MacGregor [14:33].
• “Solar power at a stroke removes that [political] power...an emblem of liberation.” — Neil MacGregor [21:28].
• “You don’t have the Battle of Waterloo. ...So it opens the way to other histories told by other people.” — Neil MacGregor [23:30].
• “That’s where the history of the US is the history of the world. I hope some of your objects will be chosen really to make that point.” — Neil MacGregor [30:29].
• “Yes, that’s exactly the object at which you will wonder, why am I doing this? ...Well, you will, and they are, and we need it.” — Neil MacGregor [31:54–32:17].

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Recommended Listening

• The episode concludes by airing a full episode of A History of the World in 100 Objects on the Rosetta Stone, illustrating the deeper narrative potential of a seemingly mundane artifact and its layered histories (beginning at [36:22]).

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Useful Timestamps

• 01:30 — Mars introduces MacGregor and the genesis of the “100 Objects” series
• 07:13 — On giving voice to the voiceless via objects
• 09:11 — On the unique power of imagination in audio storytelling
• 14:33 — Interconnectedness and the impossibility of a “single national story”
• 19:55 — The final object: the solar-powered mobile phone
• 21:28 — Solar power as a tool of political emancipation
• 23:30 — On history through everyday objects vs. grand events
• 30:29 — U.S. objects that changed the world: tobacco, blue jeans
• 31:54 — Advice on creative endurance during a 100-object project
• 36:22 — Full “A History of the World in 100 Objects” episode: The Rosetta Stone

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Tone and Style

The episode has an inquisitive, thoughtful, and enthusiastic tone, with Roman Mars’ signature warmth and curiosity balanced by MacGregor’s erudition and gentle wit. Both show a deep respect for the power of objects—and stories—to broaden our understanding of who we are, where we come from, and how we’re connected.

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For further exploration:

• Listen to “A History of the World in 100 Objects” via BBC Sounds or your podcast app
• Stay tuned for Roman Mars’ new “100 Objects” series focused on U.S. history

Transcript

[A]

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[B]

No, absolutely not. Absolutely not. I was intimidated, we were all intimidated by the fact that the BBC had committed to a series of 100 programs. We had no idea how it was going to be received at all. And in a strange way, the project began really almost as an internal project in the British Museum. What interested me, having come from the National Gallery, it's a paintings collection, to a museum, the ambition of which was to show, really the history of humanity through things. So not an art museum, but to try to explore what it meant to put objects from all over the world into one building.

[A]

Right, interesting.

[B]

So it really began as a way of exploring what happens when you think of a museum as a place where different objects are exploring the same kind of human experience.

[A]

Yeah. And of all the things in the building, how did you choose the hundred?

[B]

Well, this was the greatest fun. The British Museum is created in the middle of the 18th century, really at that moment of the Enlightenment, when people begin to have a totally different notion of what humanity means. It's the physical expression of that Enlightenment notion that there is one humanity. So what we decided to do was to try to organize the hundred objects. Well, the BBC decided that there would be five programs a week and there needed to be a theme for each week, for each week. And we wanted to go, effectively from the beginning, the earliest hand tools made by anything that can roughly be called human, right up to today. So that gave us the format and that in each week we would go round the world. So you would take, let's say, 1000 BCE and look at a theme, let's say power. I mean, how do different societies represent power at 1000 BCE? But what it meant internally was that for every week, I would sit down with a curator from the Chinese collection, the Indian collection, the Egyptian collection, the Americas collection, and we would have to think of what objects might speak to each other. Of course, for academics, in particular discipline, this is a totally new way of thinking. There was no connection between ancient Egypt and ancient China, so no Egyptologist was likely to have asked what in my collection might relate to something that's happening at the same time in China. Yeah. Because there's no connection. It's an anthropological question asked to people who are historical scholars, and they found that completely thrilling because it's allowed them all, really, to look at familiar objects and ask a totally new kind of question and suggest the commonalities of human behavior. Wherever we are, we all behave roughly, equally badly, equally well, and surprisingly, more or less in the same way.

[A]

Yeah. Were there heated arguments? Was there, you know, table pounding when people were deciding which artifacts to.

[B]

Curators don't normally pound the table? There was a certain amount of shrill advocacy for my particular piece and a certain amount of sulking that others didn't make it. But it was normally extremely good, timid. And because it was a new kind of conversation for all of them, very, very exciting. And because what we were looking at was not the history of the world, but our history, a very peculiar one. And one of the histories we wanted to tell, almost unspoken through it, because every object came from the museum, was how did it happen that every one of these objects ultimately wound up in London? Yeah.

[A]

Was there a sense that you had to present a variety of objects? Because you could certainly do. You could do a history of the world in 100 coins.

[B]

The joy of a collection at the British Museum is that you have so many different media in which humans articulate what matters to them, which is what all these things are about. But the main purpose of doing history through objects was we wanted to allow people who don't have a voice to be heard. History is, on the whole, used to mean, of course, just written history that limits you immediately to that small bit of humanity that wrote.

[A]

That wrote.

[C]

And.

[B]

And it also limits you normally to the people that were in control.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Because they were the ones that wrote the history.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And they made sure it survived. So part of our project was to have a history told by the people that had never been able to tell their story, by the makers, through the things they're made. And that, I think, is really important. How do you give a voice to the voiceless of the past?

[A]

Yeah. Yeah.

[B]

And particularly when you're talking about indigenous histories, then the objects become of huge importance as carrying the stories that weren't written and may not have survived in song or myth.

[A]

So around the same time, in 2010, I launched my show called 99% invisible, and it's about architecture and design. And there was a certain kind of perversity to doing a radio show about architecture and design, because there's hugely visual things. And you made the same choice to do a radio series on these things that most people take in with their eyes. Why did you do that? What did you get out of that?

[B]

Well, at one level, it is totally counterintuitive, isn't it, that we're talking about things, the materiality of things, how they're made, the skill with which they're made, and yet you can't see it. This is where, I think the BBC radio, they know how to do.

[A]

They know what they're doing.

[B]

But it's not just that. BBC has, I think, understood very profoundly and built on the fact that if you can only hear something, then you have to imagine what it is, and you can take possession of something you imagine much more fully than something you just see reproduced in front of you. It's why I think we're nearly always disappointed when we see a film of a book, because in reading the book, we've imagined the character of the place and they've become ours. They're part of the way we live and think. And the same with objects. If you have to do the mental, imaginative work of creating the object for yourself, you are invested in it. You possess it in a way that is not really possible, I think, with just an image.

[A]

I find that if you lead with the story of an object, you fall in love with it in a different way. Whereas, like, your visual reaction to maybe seeing Rosetta Stone is like, I was expecting something more impressive or something like this. But you can tell the sort of. The import of it, what it meant, all the story of how it was created and, you know, even the mundane way which it exists.

[B]

That's right, because what we were really trying to tell was 100 biographies of an object. And of course, we only have one life, but objects have many, many lives. And what we got very interested in was the changing role of the object through time, in ways nobody. When the people carve the Rosetta Stone. This is a tax decree. There's a bit of tax law. And it's so boring. Beyond, beyond boring. Nobody carving that tax law in the three languages for administrative had any idea what it would one day come to mean. And there is something wonderful about that in an object, that the object can play a role that nobody could have guessed.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

It makes their biographies much more engaging, much more alive, I think, than our own dull little predictable lives.

[A]

Totally. So when you wrote and conceived of the series and produced it, you know, you were the head director of the. This august institution, the British Museum, has, people hold it in great esteem. And I wondered if you noticed your relationship with the Public changed when you weren't director Neil McGregor, you were my pal Neil McGregor, who I'm invited into my home to tell me a story about a cool thing.

[B]

I think everybody's discovered that if you speak a lot on the radio, people feel they know you. Yeah. And you must have been the same thing. Very disconcerting experience of actually being recognized in a lift by your voice.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[D]

Is.

[B]

Is the first time it happens. It's very, very peculiar. And one of the things that I think is interesting about it is that it allowed us to reaffirm the fact that the public collections in Britain, as in the United States, are not the corrections of the state, but the collections of the people.

[A]

The people, Yeah.

[B]

I mean, when the British Museum is created in the 1750s, the idea is that it should be the private collection of every citizen, not the collection of the king. Open to everybody. Completely different conception from the continental European model. So the idea of speaking directly into people's houses about their collection.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

Their things. I mean, everything I was talking about belonged to the people listening to it.

[A]

Why did you choose to examined 100 objects chronologically? And what problems did that cause or what solutions did it provide?

[B]

I think it has to be chronological because one of the things that happens across human history is that we create a technology and then it helps us do something, and then we become completely dependent on it. We can't live without it. The hand axe, the simple stone scraping, hand axe, is what lets us as humans live anywhere in the world. But then once you're there, you can't live without it. We've seen the same with mobile phones in the last 20 years. It opens something and then it creates what can be a very dangerous dependency. So that was one strand. And one of the key meta narratives, I think, of any museum is the growing connectedness of the world. The fact that you can't tell a single story, to use Chimamanda Adichie's phrase, the story of the world is an interconnectedness, interconnected story. So if you like, why we want to do it chronologically was to show that constantly intensifying power of exchange, curiosity about other places, trade, greed, war, whatever. But that has intensified steadily across the millennia until you can't really tell a single narrative of a national story. And that was one of the points we wanted to make. The idea of a national history, I'm sorry to say that somebody was writing history in the United States, but the idea of a national history is unthinkable without situating that nation absolutely in the

[A]

global context, we are in agreement for sure, but. But it does present this problem is like the beginning set of objects are all objects that are prehistorical. There's nothing written records about them. Like, you have to sort of conceive of the story differently because there isn't a record of how it was made or why it was made. And so your set of stories really gets sort of limited and then it opens up as you go along. So what was that?

[B]

I disagree, I disagree. It narrows down the more we know about the other.

[A]

I guess that's true.

[B]

I mean, the whole point of. Seems to be of the central point of any kind of historical investigation is your poetic involvement with somebody else. Yeah. That you have to think, what is it like to be somebody else? Because that's the basis of all tolerance. And if you like, the whole venture was really Gulliver's Travels. You go off around the world, you find these astonishing things, wild things. But the point of Gulliver's Travels is not that the people in Brobdingnag are huge and Lilliput tiny. The point is that when you come back to England, you realize we're pretty peculiar.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah.

[B]

We're the odd ones.

[A]

Interesting.

[B]

And to denormalize, to remove yourself as the norm, is the precondition of tolerance. And that's what Gulliver is about, is what the British Museum's about. And it's what the series was meant to be about.

[A]

Yeah. That's interesting. I love that approach. One of the things I marveled at in the series is you're touching everything. You're always describing it as a firsthand experience. And for one reason you do that is it's a little more radiophonic. It allows you to have something happening as you're talking. So it's not just a lecture, but the other part of it is it puts you in the first person narrative of this object.

[B]

It does. The difficult thing about that, which I found very hard to know how to manage, is where the object has, for the people who made it, and possibly for people today as well, its own kind of sacred existence, its own life.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

And how one ought then, with proper reverence, proper respect, hold or touch this object without having those beliefs.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And that took us into very interesting areas of the extent to which you study. Can study objects in ways which are contrary to. To the belief patterns, belief assumptions of those who made them. How do we address an Australian original object which may have sacred resonances in a respectful way?

[A]

Interesting, interesting. So one of the things That I found. There's this moment in the series, quite late into it, where you talk to David Hockney, which is the first person you talk to who made the object that you're talking about, which is. It's such a change compared to the rest of the series. What was that like?

[B]

Well, it was. It was very thrilling. We had been waiting to get to an object made by somebody where we could speak to the maker. The very first object was 1 1/2 million years ago on the stone chopping tools, obviously, but we're David Attenborough instead. Yeah.

[A]

Well, that's pretty good.

[B]

Almost do to tell us what's going on, how this fits into the animal human differentiation moment. It was wonderful with David Hockney because the objects we were talking about were a series of prints he'd made, really, about gay life in Egypt, the poems of Cavafy. And we chose the objects for several reasons. In the 20th century. We wanted to choose objects that would address the questions of new kinds of freedom. So we had votes for women was one, gay rights another. We wanted to, of course, to present what it was like to make the objects and why. David himself, obviously very committed to gay rights. What it meant to him to read the poems above all.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And then to make the prints and then what it would mean to him to have the prints used, looked at and spread the campaign, advance the campaign for gay rights internationally. So. But it was, as you say, it was a real turning point to be able to speak to the maker of the first. This time.

[A]

There was also. There was a lot of excitement for the choice of the final 100th object. You deliberately didn't reveal it until the last minute. You invited listeners to suggest it. What was it? Why did you choose it and. And how did people react to it?

[B]

We had enormous fun trying to decide what was the last object to choose. We wanted to choose an object that spoke to a totally globalized world. We also wanted to end, of course, on a note that would be hopeful.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So we eventually came down to two objects. One was a football shirt.

[E]

Okay.

[B]

A football shirt of a West African or a Drogba, Francophone West African who was the great star of Chelsea.

[D]

Yeah.

[B]

And Chelsea was owned by a Russian oligarch, Bridget. And the football shirt had been made illegally in China but bought in Latin America. So that object seemed to us to pull together quite a lot of the world as it now is. What we ultimately went for was slightly more serious. It was a solar panel rechargeable mobile phone because the mobile phone seemed to us to be the equivalent of the hand axe, the chopping tool. The first technology that had enabled humans to move around the world, and this latest one that enabled humans to communicate around the world. We were interested in it because it's become, of course, in so many areas, an element of emancipation, particularly of women, enabling women to bank, enabling women to trade. And of course, the other dimension of solar power which we wanted to bring in is that in political terms, this has become a very important thing because in large areas of Africa and Asia, the electric currents, cables to areas could be controlled by political bosses and areas could either be not cabled or have cables removed or whatever. The solar power at a stroke removes that power, removes that political control. So it seemed to us to be in many, many ways an emblem of liberation, an emblem of the growing technologies which change our lives and then we become dependent on them. It's also about talking and of course, many people listen to the BBC on their mobile phones. So it was also a nod to patron.

[A]

Absolutely. Radio is the most important thing.

[B]

BBC,

[A]

of course, you know, where your bread is buttered. That makes sense. But it was also the solar powered lamp, which also, like, extended the day. And just like it's all about this sort of individualized freedom and the ability of this technology frees you for all kinds of things.

[B]

That's what we wanted to again finish on, how these technologies do unquestionably make life better.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Because the solar panel will give you the lamp, which means you can work at home if you're a student, without electricity, whatever. And it also means you don't need to burn for your lighting materials, which are likely to cause you lung problems and health difficulties. So in every way it's potentially a good thing and we wanted to end on a good hundred thing.

[A]

I'm interested in what you think of the series Legacy now. It's an early example of podcasting being really successful. I think it had more listeners globally than it did inside of the uk. What do you think of the legacy of the show?

[B]

Well, we've been as surprised by the legacy as we were by the response initially. I think it has definitely had an impact in terms of reminding people that the everyday object has its own biography, its own history, and that takes you back to the dignity of the maker and the user.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So what it does as a history is it takes away the great moments that we're taught. You don't have the Battle of Waterloo.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Why would it figure out.

[A]

Absolutely.

[B]

That's not the kind of history. So it opens the way to other histories told by other people.

[A]

Yeah. And that's why a history versus the history.

[B]

Exactly. And that was very important. One of the slightly. It's been translated into a lot of languages, the book. One of the vexing things is in some countries, some translations. The publisher insisted on making it the history. Maybe in translation. The and are mean different things in different languages.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. You know, this idea of a history and the fact that objects mean different things to different people. This came up a lot, as you've alluded to already. You would talk to folks who would differ from even designation of it being an object at all. What is that like, navigating that in the storytelling?

[B]

It is difficult, of course, and it's where the. It's quite useful to be able to say, well, the BBC only gave us 13 and a half minutes for this,

[A]

so you can point to the controversy. You don't have to fully adjudicate it.

[E]

Exactly.

[B]

But it's a very real one and it's very central to museum experience. And that's one of the differences, clearly, between the series. We were doing your series, we were talking very much about objects in a museum to be presented to the public. But in a museum, the question, for instance, should some objects be shown at all?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

When it will cause offense to members of a community from which in the past, they came. That's a very delicate thing, because what you're really talking about there are putting limits on the quest for knowledge. Am I not to be allowed to pursue certain lines of inquiry because it might offend your beliefs? That's a huge question.

[A]

It is, yeah.

[B]

The 18th century was very brisk about this.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Partly because it was really about the constraints of the churches. And it was saying that the constraints put on academic scientific research by the churches were simply unacceptable and that you had to go on pursuing the questions even if the faithful were distressed. We can't take that position with the same confidence, or we might choose not to take it at all today in relation to other beliefs outside the European experience, particularly. It's a, I think, a very big philosophical question.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

And I don't know the answer.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But it's a question that comes again and again, particularly, of course, in areas of the natural world and of human history.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. Because even like putting a date on a Clovis, the spear point of Clovis spearpoint, people don't want to hear a date associated with it. They don't want to hear, you know, that people arrived.

[B]

This was a very interesting discussion because as I understand it. The archaeological evidence and the DNA evidence points to the fact that the Americas are peopled from Northeast asia sometime around 15,000 years ago. That of course, is a historical account that is at odds with the traditional beliefs of many indigenous Americans. How one presents the one without offending the other is a very serious question.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

We decided simply to allude to it, but not to explore it, but to present what we believe the thing tells us.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

But it's a very. I don't know whether that was the right decision.

[A]

Well, I don't know what other decision you could quite make, honestly. Like, I don't. I don't know.

[B]

Because you have two irreconcilable understandings of the relationship between the people in the place and the story of the world.

[A]

Yeah. And we have different views of, you know, how reverent to sort of treat that object. I mean, like, you treated the object with great reverence, like it was super important. But Clovis point is there, that meant, you know, 80% of the megafauna was gone.

[B]

It's death to the mammoth.

[A]

You know, it's all, you know, interesting and important stuff, but it's. They are not. And so you just have to. To do your best to present the signs of it. I sure.

[B]

I think that's as much as one can do in this kind of format.

[A]

Yeah. So we're now making a history of the US in 100 objects. If you had an advice for like things that you would think you must include. First of all, we're not going chronological. I decided this from the very beginning because I needed the freedom to jump around. And we also were like, we're open. We've sort of conceived of 25 or 30 and we have it open and we're trying to solicit responses from people. So what is the type of thing that you think from your experience in the first hundred object series is important to include?

[B]

You're talking about the history from.

[A]

It's kind of 1776. You know, it could be things that lead into it.

[B]

I think what would be interesting is an outsider. We all know the things that came as were from the Europeans settling into America, but the things that came from tobacco.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

I mean, what. I mean, there is something that America gave the world that changed the world.

[A]

Absolutely, absolutely.

[B]

And the smoking tobacco peers almost have begun in the territory of the United States. What object you would choose, I don't know, but that's completely changed the world.

[A]

That's a good point.

[B]

Certainly in my childhood, in the 50s and 60s. I mean, you couldn't be a credible teenager without a cigarette. And it could be a French one, but it could just easily be a Lucky Strike or whatever. But even the French ones were of course, American derived. Yeah. So that. That kind of notion. And the same with blue jeans. Why did blue jeans represent a kind of freedom? I mean, when we were talking about the new freedoms, political and economic and sexual, we read objects that told those stories. The coins for votes for women, Hockney's prints, whatever. Blue jeans and cigarettes mean something the same it does in the 20s. But what are they about and how does that happen? I mean, that seems to me something. That's where the history of the US is the history of the world. I hope some of your objects will be chosen really to make that point.

[A]

That's right. I mean, you've heard a couple of the early. One of the ones that's sort of like the cigarettes and blue jeans, but maybe like not quite as known, is this 60 degree threaded screw, which is an object that has very little outward significance to people, but really dominated and changed the world.

[B]

I found that completely fascinating because it's a totally different way of using an object from what we were doing. I mean, you were taking an object, but I mean, almost any screw. Would you do.

[A]

Any screw. Yeah.

[B]

No particular screw. And using it to plot how the US dislodged the UK as the industrial determinant of the world.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And that huge shift in economic, political, military power can all be read through the discussions about how to standardize globally. The thread on the screw, I knew nothing about it at all. At all. And it was completely fascinating and of course, is not at all surprising. Once it's spelled out like all these things, the minute you're told, you can understand, of course, that's what would have happened. It was brilliant.

[A]

Oh, thank you. Thank you. So do you have any advice for me as I'm embarking on this? Is there a moment that I should be aware of? Is it like object number 68, where you're just like where it's.

[B]

Yes, that's exactly the object at which you will wonder, why am I doing this? Can I bear to go on? Am I ever going to get to the end? Is anybody still listening?

[A]

Arie, watch out for that moment.

[B]

And the answer is yes. Well, you will, and they are, and we need it.

[A]

So thank you, Neil McGregor. Thank you so much for talking with me. I had such a good time.

[B]

Thank you.

[A]

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Every day I walk through the Egyptian Sculpture Gallery at the British Museum, and every day there are tour guides speaking every imaginable language, addressing groups of visitors who are craning to see the object that I'll be talking about in this program. It's on every visitor's itinerary. And with the mummies, it's the most popular object in the British Museum. Why, to look at it is decidedly dull. It's a grey stone about the size of one of those large suitcases. You see people trundling around on wheels at airports, and the rough edges show that it's been broken from a larger stone with the fractures cutting across the text that covers one side. And when you read that text, it's pretty dull, too. It's mostly bureaucratic jargon about tax concessions. But as so often in the museum, appearances are deceiving because this dreary bit of broken granite has played a starring role in three fascinating and different stories. The story of the Greek kings who ruled in Alexandria after Alexander the Great conquered Egypt. The story of the French and British imperial competition across The Middle east after Napoleon invaded Egypt and the extraordinary but peaceful scholarly contest that led to the most famous decipherment in history, the cracking of hieroglyphics.

[C]

In the Memphis Decree, we find a Greek view of the world in Egyptian terms.

[E]

I think it's quite weird why you would put this sort of a statement, which is basically a statement of tax exemption, on such a heavy stone. I mean 760kg. Why did they do that?

[B]

A history of the world in a hundred objects. The rosetta stone, erected in 196 bc

[C]

found at el rashid, egypt.

[D]

This is a week of objects connected to shifting empires and legendary rulers. From Alexander the Great to the emperor Augustus over 2000 years ago. From the Mediterranean and the Middle east to India and China, these leaders found different ways of physically projecting their power and their authority. Today's program is particularly fascinating though, because it's a special case. It's about a ruler who's not strong but weak. A king who has to bargain for and protect his power by borrowing the invincible strength of the gods. Or more precisely, the priests were in Egypt with Ptolemy V, a Greek boy king who came to the throne as an orphan in 205 BC at the

[B]

age of 6, Ptolemy V was born

[D]

into a great dynasty. The first Ptolemy was one of Alexander the Great's generals who around a hundred years earlier had taken over Egypt. Following Alexander's death, the Ptolemies didn't trouble to learn Egyptian. They simply made all their officials speak Greek. And so Greek would be the language of state administration in Egypt for a thousand years. Perhaps their greatest achievement was to make their capital city, Alexandria, into the most brilliant metropolis of the Greek speaking world. For centuries it was second only to Rome. It was a cosmopolitan magnet for goods, people and ideas. The vast library of Alexandria was built by the Ptolemies. In it they planned to collect all the world's knowledge. And Ptolemies 1 and 2 created the famous Pharaoh's Lighthouse which became one of the seven wonders of the World. Such a lively, diverse city needed strong leadership. When Ptolemy V's father died suddenly, leaving the boy as king, the dynasty and its control of Egypt looked fragile. The boy's mother was killed, the palace was drawn by soldiers and there were revolts throughout the country which delayed the young Ptolemy's coronation for years. It was in these volatile circumstances that Ptolemy V issued the Rosetta Stone and others like it. The stone is not unique. There are another 17 similar inscriptions quite like it, all in three languages and all proclaiming the greatness of the Ptolemies These were put up in major temple complexes across Egypt. The Rosetta Stone was made in 196 BC, on the first anniversary of the coronation of Ptolemy V, by then a teenager. It's a decree issued by Egyptian priests, ostensibly to mark the coronation and to declare Ptolemy's new status as a living God. Divinity went with the job of being a pharaoh. The priests had given Ptolemy a full Egyptian coronation at the sacred city of Memphis, and this greatly strengthened his position as the rightful ruler of Egypt. But there was a trade off. Ptolemy may have become a God, but to get there he'd had to negotiate some very unheavenly politics with his extremely powerful Egyptian priests. Dorothy Thompson, Emeritus professor at Cambridge University

[C]

the occasion which resulted in this decree was in some respects a change. There had been previous decrees and they take much the same form, but in this particular reign, the reign of a very young king whose kingdom was under attack for many quarters. One of the clauses of the Memphis decree, the Rosetta Stone, is that priests should no longer come every year to Alexandria. Alexandria was the new Greek capital. Instead they could meet at Memphis, the old centre of Egypt. This was new, and it may be seen perhaps as a concession on the part of the royal household.

[D]

The priests were critical in keeping the hearts and minds of the Egyptian masses on side for Ptolemy, and the Rosetta Stone was their reward. Not only does the decree allow the priests to remain in Memphis rather than coming to Alexandria, it also gives them a number of very attractive tax breaks. Of course, no teenager is likely to have thought this up. Somebody behind the throne was clearly thinking strategically on the boy's behalf and more importantly, on the dynasty's behalf. So the stone is simultaneously an expression of power and of compromise. Although to read the whole content is about as thrilling as reading a new EU treaty written simultaneously in several languages. The content is bureaucratic, priestly and dry. But that, of course, is not the point. What matters about the Rosetta Stone is not what it says, but that it says it three times and in three different languages. In classical Greek, the language of the Greek rulers and the state administration, and then in two forms of ancient Egyptian, the everyday writing of the people known as Demotic, and the priestly hieroglyphics, hieroglyphics which have for centuries baffled Europeans. It was the Rosetta Stone that changed all that. And while the text of the stone itself is pretty unexciting, it dramatically opened up the entire world of ancient Egypt. By the time of the Rosetta Stone, 196 BC, hieroglyphs were no longer in general use. They were used and understood only by the priests in the temples. Five hundred years later, even this restricted knowledge of how to read and write them had disappeared. The script of ancient Egypt was lost. The Rosetta stone survived unread through 2000 years of further foreign occupations. Romans, Byzantines, Persians, Muslim Arabs and Ottoman Turks all had stretches of rule in Egypt. At some point, the stone was moved from the temple at Sais in the Nile delta, where we think it was first erected, to El Rashid, or the town of Rosetta as we now know it, about 40 miles away. Then, in 1799, Napoleon arrived. The French invasion was not only military, but intellectual. With the French army came scholars. Soldiers rebuilding fortifications in Rosetta dug up the stone. And the scholars knew immediately that they had found something of great significance. The French took the stone as a cultural trophy of war, but it never made it back to Paris. Pursued by Nelson, Napoleon was defeated. And in 1801, the terms of the Treaty of Alexandria signed by the French, British and Egyptian generals included the handing over of antiquities. And the Rosetta Stone was one of them. Most books will tell you that there are three languages on the Rosetta Stone, but if you look on the broken side, you can see that in fact there are four, because they're stenciled on In English. You can read Captured by the British army in 1801, presented by King George III. Nothing could make it clear that if the text on the front of the stone is about the first European empire in Africa, Alexander the Great. The finding of the stone stands at the beginning of another European adventure. The bitter rivalry between Britain and France for dominance in the Middle east and in Africa, which continued from Napoleon until the Second World War.

[B]

We asked the Egyptian writer Adaf Souef

[D]

for her view of this history.

[E]

So this stone so makes me think of how often Egypt has been the theater of other people's battles. It's one of the earliest objects through which you can trace Western colonial interest in Egypt, because, of course, it was found by the French in the context of Napoleon's invasion of the country and then appropriated by the British when they defeated him. And the French and the British argued over it. No one seems to have considered that it belonged to neither of them. But Egypt's foreign. Foreign rulers, from the Romans to the Turks to the British, have always made free with Egypt's heritage. Egypt for 2000 years had foreign rulers, and in 52, much was made of the fact that Nasser was the first Egyptian ruler since the pharaohs. And I guess we've had two more since, although with varying results.

[D]

The stone was brought back to the British Museum and immediately put on display in the public domain, freely available for every scholar in the world to see. And copies and transcriptions were published worldwide. European scholars now set about the task of understanding the mysterious hieroglyphic script. The Greek inscription was the one that every scholar could read and was therefore seen to be the key. But everybody was stuck. A brilliant English physicist and polymath, Thomas Young, correctly worked out that a group of hieroglyphs repeated several times on the Rosetta Stone wrote the sounds of a royal name, that of Ptolemy. It was a crucial first step, but Young hadn't quite cracked the code. A French scholar, Jean Francois Champollion, then realized that not only the symbols for Ptolemy, but all the hieroglyphs were both pictorial and phonetic. They recorded the sound of the Egyptian language. For example, on the last line of the hieroglyphic text on the stone, three signs spell out the sounds of the word for stone slab in Egyptian, ahai. And then a fourth sign gives a picture showing the stone as it would originally have looked, a square slab with a rounded top. So sound and picture work together. By 1822, Champollion had finally worked the whole thing out. From now on, the world could put words to the great objects, the statues and the monuments, the mummies and the papyri of ancient Egyptian civilization. By the time of the Rosetta Stone, Egypt had already been under Greek rule for over a hundred years, and the Ptolemy's dynasty would last for another 150. The dynasty ended infamously with the reign of Cleopatra VII, the Cleopatra who beguiled and seduced both Julius Caesar and Mark Antony. But with the death of Antony and Cleopatra, Egypt was conquered by Augustus, whose image I'll be talking about later this week. And the Egypt of the Ptolemies became part of the Roman Empire. In the next program, I'll be in Rome's great contemporary China, looking looking at how the Han dynasty operated a super state and expanded their frontiers while keeping close control over every aspect of society. All this through a lacquer cup.

[A]

Listen to the full 100 Object series on Fridays right here in the 99% invisible feed. A History of the World and 100 Objects was a landmark collaboration between BBC Radio 4 and the British Museum. If you'd like to hear more of A History of the world and 100 objects, you can listen on BBC Sounds in the UK. And if you're outside the UK, you can find it wherever you get your podcasts.

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