Which foods are really medicine and which are overrated?

Summary

Podcast Summary: A Gut Feeling

Episode: Which foods are really medicine and which are overrated?

Hosts: Dave O'Brien & Jake Doleschal

Date: July 26, 2026

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Episode Overview

In this episode, Jake Doleschal and Dave O’Brien debate the concept of “food as medicine,” questioning whether dietary interventions alone are powerful enough to treat or resolve health issues. Drawing from their experience as holistic health practitioners and educators, they dissect the common advice found on social media, scrutinize the practicality of food-based remedies compared to supplements, and separate science-backed facts from popular myths. The episode balances skepticism with practical advice, using specific research examples to illustrate when food is actually impactful and when it’s overrated.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Debate Setup: "Is Food Medicine?"

• [00:12] The episode opens with a mock debating stance: Dave takes the position that food is not medicine, Jake opposes.
• Both agree: the phrase “food is medicine” is misleading without understanding real-world context and dosages.
• Main concern: People oversimplify scientific findings, attributing medicinal effects to foods when the data often involves impractically large amounts.

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2. Example: Tart Cherry Juice for Sleep

• [02:18 – 08:28]
  • Melatonin Content Reality:
    • Tart cherry juice does contain natural melatonin, but at about 0.135 mcg per 100 ml. To achieve the effective dose shown in studies (0.3–0.5 mg), you’d need to drink several liters—a huge and costly intake.
    • Supplemental melatonin (1–2 mg) is more practical and affordable.
    • Quote [05:00] – Dave:
      "To elicit that type of benefit... how much tart cherry juice are you potentially going to have to consume? It's a lot. And... is this sort of going to be like urinating in a hurricane?"
  • Dose Reporting in Studies:
    • Research often uses “heroic” food doses not feasible in daily life.
    • [06:50] – Jake:
      "Usually they’re using very high doses... sometimes I look at the study and think to myself, oh my God, who can consume that much?"

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3. Comparing Dietary to Supplement Interventions

• [09:05 – 13:27]
  • Cranberry Juice for UTI Prevention:
    • Effective preventive dose is about 300 ml/day of juice, which is costly and still not the same as targeted supplementation (e.g., D-Mannose).
    • Real world costs and convenience weigh heavily against dietary-only approaches.
    • [12:52] – Dave:
      "So, you’re getting three glasses and one bottle done. So we’re talking like a hundred bucks a week."
  • Takeaway:
    • Supplements often deliver higher, more precise doses of active compounds and can be more realistic for therapeutic effects.

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4. Food Quality, Context, and Realism

• [16:02 – 17:11]
  • Diet alone may maintain or mildly improve health, but rarely reverses established conditions or significantly boosts performance/anti-aging.
  • Supplements allow therapeutic concentrations of beneficial compounds.
    • [16:02] – Jake:
      "Diet is probably enough to maintain your level of health... if you’ve got a state of ill health, diet is not going to be enough to actually reverse that."

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5. Active Compounds: The Quantity Conundrum

• [18:04 – 29:31]
  • Examples Discussed:
    • Blueberries and Pterostilbene:
      • For cognitive effects seen in research (40mg/day), you’d need 75,000 blueberries daily—clearly impractical.
      • [21:16] – Dave:
        "If you eat 75,000 blueberries, that's gonna be like someone put, not a hand grenade up your backside, but a bloody bazooka."
    • Quercetin (in onions/capers):
      • Study on reducing inflammation used 2,000 mg/day; highest food source (capers) provides only ~200 mg/100g, so you’d need about a kilo.
    • D-Limonene (orange peel):
      • Useful dose for gut health is ~600 mg; an orange peel contains ~35 mg.
    • Bioavailability: Sometimes, the compound is more effective from supplements; other times, food provides better absorption.

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6. When Diet Can Be Enough

• [31:30 – 50:20]
  • Some foods, especially in liquid form or at modest doses, can be “needle movers.”
    • Cabbage Juice for Gastric Ulcers: 200–250 ml/day was more effective than standard medication, healing ulcers in 7.3 vs 42 days. [49:27]
    • Pomegranate Juice: 250 ml/day reduced inflammation (calprotectin) in IBD patients.
    • Honey: 10–20g daily as effective as cough medications; higher amounts (1g/kg) needed for hay fever.
    • Raw Camel Milk: 200 ml daily had anti-parasitic effects, occasionally outperforming pharmaceuticals—though sourcing and cost are barriers.
    • Kiwi, Chocolate, and Tomato Paste: Reasonable daily intakes have noticeable effects on sleep, immunity, or cognition.

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7. Liquids: An Edge for Efficacy

• [41:43 – 66:42]
  • Beverages and Oils:
    • Juices (e.g., carrot, pomegranate, tomato), vinegars, bone broth, extra virgin olive oil, coconut water—are often more practical for reaching effective doses.
    • [46:32] – Jake:
      "...liquid dietary interventions are better."
  • Hibiscus Tea:
    • 2–3 cups daily reduce blood pressure—doable for most people.
  • Aloe Vera Juice:
    • 30–40 ml/day improves thyroid and GI health.

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8. Balance and Practicality

• Choose Interventions Wisely:
  • Not all foods can (or should) be eaten in medicinal amounts—cost, taste, and possible side effects matter.
  • Have a toolbox: use both foods and supplements as needed, tailored to individual practicality and goals.
• Notable Closing Quote [66:48] – Dave:
  • "Food is medicine. But my pushback...is just to sit there and just not give context...If you're not using things that are a little bit more bang for your buck...it's probably unlikely."
• [67:57] – Jake:
  • "If your sleep's not that bad and you do a bit of tactic supportive. Sure."

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9. Rapid-Fire Practical Food Examples

• [68:01 – 70:40]
  • Kiwi Fruit:
    • Two kiwi nightly improves sleep and immune function (neutrophils) in men.
  • High-Magnesium Cacao:
    • As hot chocolate before bed (with milk and honey) helps sleep, especially for those intolerant to magnesium supplements.
  • Tomato Paste:
    • Half-gram per kilo daily improved cognition in brain scans—double benefit from lycopene and potassium.
  • Oily Fish (e.g., sardines, mackerel):
    • 100g, 5 times a week is achievable and effective for heart and vascular health.
  • Carrots:
    • Reduction in gastric cancer risk; carrot juice is even better for beta-carotene absorption.
  • Okra/Aloe/Celery Extracts:
    • Extracts more potent, but food can help in blood sugar and gut health when dose is sufficient.

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• Dave [05:00]:
  "Is this sort of going to be like urinating in a hurricane?"
• Jake [06:50]:
  "When they do find an effect, usually they're using very high doses."
• Dave [12:52]:
  "So, you're getting three glasses and one bottle done. We're talking like a hundred bucks a week."
• Jake [16:02]:
  "Diet is probably enough to maintain your level of health...but if you've got a state of ill health...diet is not going to be enough to actually reverse that."
• Dave [21:16]:
  "If you eat 75,000 blueberries, that's gonna be like someone put, not a hand grenade up your backside, but a bloody bazooka."
• Jake [46:32]:
  "I would strongly argue now that those dietary. Those liquid, dietary interventions are better."
• Dave [66:48]:
  "Food is medicine. But...just not give context...it's probably unlikely [to make a significant difference]."

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Conclusion

Main Takeaways

• Context is everything: The medicinal effects seen in food studies often require impractically high intakes.
• Supplements have a clear role: They offer convenience and more potent dosing for many conditions.
• Some foods work well in practical quantities: Particularly certain juices, specific fruits (kiwi), honey for cough, and nightly hot chocolate with cacao.
• Balance & Individualization: Success comes from tailoring interventions—sometimes the right food at a modest dose works, other times supplementation is essential.

Memorable Closing Moment

• The hosts joke about launching their own “liquid diet,” parodying their own lean towards juice-based interventions:
  • [66:42] – Jake:
    "Come back next week for our patented liquid diet, the Jake and Dave liquid diet."

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If you’re looking to optimize health, understand both the promise and the limits of “food as medicine.” Dose, bioavailability, cost, and practicality matter. Use both foods and supplements strategically—and always in context.

Transcript

[A]

Welcome back, everyone. We are, we're starting our episode. We.

[B]

We're actually laughing then. Okay. Because you were, you were trying to contain me.

[A]

I've cornered you, I rushed you. I said, no, we're not going to plan this episode. We're going to jump in because I know what you were just about to do. You're going to defend your, your position stance. And I said, no, let's do it live. So today's episode is why food is not medicine. Food will not help you, it will not cure you, it will not make any of your health symptom. And that Dave, is taking the affirmative for that position and I will be taking the negative. Is that what you would call it? I don't know. I didn't do debating in school, but I will. Opposing. There we go, the opposing argument. So, Dave, let's start. Why do you think?

[B]

Well, one thing I want to clear up, okay, so Jake is, you know, that's a bit of a comedy sketch right at the front there, right at the start there. Okay. I am not saying that food cannot be used as medicine before people, like, come at me with all the hate. I'm definitely not saying that, you know, that. My thing would be that what I think is happening at the moment is that people are not getting context. That's, that's, that, that's what's happening. Okay, do you want me to give you some examples? Well, I start. No, start off with ex. Do you know what I mean by that? Okay, so what so I mean, okay, so if we're saying that a particular food. And obviously we'll get into some examples, okay, if we're saying that a particular food could help with a particular health ailment or condition, or even if we're talking about, let's say, performance, okay, so even if it might increase, like, okay, you know, cognitive thinking, okay. And memory and all that type of stuff. And obviously, you know, Instagram and social media is a big issue around. This is where people might go, oh, okay, you've got issues with sleep then. Do I use this example?

[A]

Eda pistachio.

[B]

Oh, yeah. Okay, well, we'll have, have something like, you know, tart cherry juice. Yeah, yeah. Okay. Now I'm not like, I just want to make it clear, okay, Because I know, like, I think you might have put out information talking about like tart cherry juice. And I do, like, I think you have periods where you have that, like now and then as well.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, I do. Yeah, I do.

[B]

I've got something to cover now, but I'M not. I want to make it clear. Okay. That is not. So I'm not saying don't use the dietary interventions. Okay. Because I would assume. Okay. I haven't looked at all the data around tart cherry juice, but I'll use that as a bit of an example in a minute. I'm sure you get all these other benefits not just around sleep. Okay. With the tart cherry juice. Okay. My thing would be okay, to elicit that type of benefit if someone did have. I'm not saying they have to have full on sleep disorders. Does that make sense? Okay. I'm not talking about insomnia and okay. I'm just saying just to improve by just having like physiological benefits regarding their sleep. Does that make sense what I'm saying my thing would be. Okay, because obviously we know some. Like, once again, I'm just using this as an example. I'm going to use many examples. Yeah. Okay. So tart. So tart cherry juice contains a certain amount of natural melatonin. Yeah. Okay. Is it the, is it the highest, I mean, is tart cherry. I think it's the highest. It would be the highest amount of like natural melatonin. I think it is like every time

[A]

it's a particular form of tart cherry, isn't it?

[B]

Yeah, but, but if we're talking about dietary intervention here. Yeah. Okay, so now you know me, I always go around, I go, okay, I want to, I want to understand, okay, how much melatonin are you actually getting from, from the tart cherry juice? Okay. Now obviously I'm sure people are going to go check GPT and all that type of stuff and there might be some variance in what I'm saying here. Okay, but look, this is close enough. Yeah. Okay. That you're getting 0.1, 0.135 mcg, which is micro milligrams. Okay, that's perfect. It was like a hundred grams of juice. Okay, it was. That's a hundred mil. Yeah. Okay, so now to. Okay, let's like, I'm sure you're probably going to chime in here. Okay, but let's say. Okay, what would be the minimum amount? Because you know, when it comes to sleep, okay. A lot of people talk about like, you know, 1 milligram or 2 milligrams. Okay. Now what I'm talking about is supplemental melatonin.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

All right, but. Okay, let's say what would potentially be the minimum based on the literature and the research. Okay. That you would get benefits in regards to restoring sleep. Okay.

[A]

I would guess it's going to depend a little bit on genes, but I would guess about half a milligram.

[B]

Yeah. Pretty close. Yeah. Like, I found stuff around like, 0.3 milligrams. Yep, yep. Okay. I see. Pretty close. Pretty close to that. Okay. I'm sure there's other research papers. Okay. But I found a research paper where it was 0.3 milligrams. Okay. This was in regards to the dose of melatonin to help to have a positive impact on restoring sleep. Okay. That was in adults. Okay. I think they were older adults over the age of 50. Okay. And as you said, we're not taking away from the fact that there's nuance within that. Yeah. Okay. Now, once again, I'm not saying don't use the dietary intervention. I'm not saying that, you know, of course, use the dietary interventions. Okay. But the, like, if you do. If you did the equation. Okay. So if you're trying to use it directly. This is my point. If you're trying to use directly the tart cherry juice to restore sleep, how much tart cherry juice are you potentially going to have to consume to elicit that type of physiological benefit? It's a lot. Okay. It's a lot. And so then my point would be, does that. Not saying, don't do it, I'm saying, does that become. So if I've got someone on Instagram, like a coach who's saying, oh, you got sleep issues? Take tart cherry juice. Is. What is. Is this sort of going to be like urinating in a hurricane?

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. So let's back up for a moment. So obviously, like you said, neither of us is saying, hey, foods can't help. Okay? But one thing that is obvious, as soon as you look at any studies on any of these types of things, whether it's tart cherry juice or any of the foods we're going to talk about, what you'll notice is, is when they do find an effect, usually they're using very high doses. Right. And I post a lot about this kind of stuff. I post a lot about, hey, here's a food that was found to do this, here's a juice that did this, and whatever else. And when I post about that stuff, I think I did a post yesterday on, on. On honey, Honey, helping with hay fever. And I make sure to post the dose that they use. And sometimes I will actually look at the study and think to myself, oh, my God, who can consume that much like the honey they're using a gram a day per kilo. Okay. I go to town on honey, but I might have probably half that. Yeah. So we, and you know, I post that stuff and then I get all this hate from people being like, oh, no one can possibly consume that. It's like, well, for starters, I kind of agree with you, but for seconds, I'm just being transparent here. This is what the studies are showing. So when it comes, it comes to something like tart cherry. I mean, there are studies showing tart cherry juice helps with sleep.

[B]

I want to make it clear I'm not taking away from that at all. Does it matter?

[A]

But how much are they using? They have. They're using exactly half a liter or more.

[B]

I can't remember, like the exact amounts. Okay. But then it just gets to. So it's not even that. Okay. So that's a crazy high consumption that you would have to use on a regular occurrence.

[A]

Yeah. Every day you're using half a bottle.

[B]

But then we start getting the conversation of like, because people. Okay. Like, you know, cost of living and. Okay. And, you know, the, you know, and, and the, the thing that I get a little bit frustrated with. Okay. Is then people turn around and go, oh, but, you know, supplements that cost a lot of money. I go, but let's, let's start doing the comparison in that cost one tenth

[A]

as much as drinking half a bottle of tart cherry juice.

[B]

Okay. And that's why, that's why, you know, I get my backup as well. Okay. You know, this where when people say, oh, well, supplement, supplements are just support, and I just go, well, that, that, that's a crazy thing to say. Okay?

[A]

Because hang on, supplements are support for what you cannot afford or conveniently do via food, perhaps. Right?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So if someone said, I want to drink a liter of tart cherry juice, so I'm not going to take melatonin. Okay, great. In that case, the melatonin would be the support, would be the supplement for your diet if you were not doing a liter of tart cherry juice. But I imagine no one is really doing. I mean, like I said, I've got some sitting in the fridge at the moment, and I think that bottle cost me like 15 bucks. I'm not going to drink a whole bottle a day.

[B]

Well, can I.

[A]

That's like six months of melatonin syndrome.

[B]

Yeah, well, I did, I did, I did a calculation on another sort of like dietary intervention. Once again, not against this dietary intervention. I put up some information around this, I think, just the other day. Okay. And I think you've promoted this as well, but you. Once again, you would be honest about what would be the dosaging. Okay. That you would require. Okay. To obviously elicit those types of benefits. Okay. And that was around cranberry juice. Okay. Now, so. So cranberry juice. Okay.

[A]

What do you need, like, 750 mil or something like that, Isn't it?

[B]

Yeah. Well. So. So, I mean, if you look at it. So obviously we talk about urinary tract infections. Okay. And like. Obviously, yes, there's different types of urinary tract infections. You've got acute, uncomplicated urinary tract infections, complicated urinary tract infections. So I don't remember. You know, I mean, is it just urinary tract, urinary tract infections overall? Can't really remember all the research. Okay. But look, roughly. Roughly. Okay. They're generally suggesting this is preventative. Bear in mind.

[A]

Yeah. Which is a lot less. It's like a third as much as what you need.

[B]

Exactly. So I'm talking about preventative to stop you. To stop you from being more susceptible to urinary tract infections. Yeah. Okay. That's 300 mil of cranberry juice daily. Bear in mind. Okay. Because you're getting, what is it, the pro. Anthocyanidins or something like that. Okay. You need about 36 mil. Is it like 36 milligrams or something like that? Okay. And I think that's ends up being you have to drink about 300 mil of cranberry juice. Okay. And that's the one that would do what? It will actually reduce the presence of bacteria in the urine and white blood cells in the urine, all that type of stuff. Okay.

[A]

That's the D Mannose. Or

[B]

does that come. Is that coming in that category? Yeah. Yeah, I believe so. Yeah. So.

[A]

Because the alternative would be you could just supplement with D Mannose. Yes, That's.

[B]

That's my point. Yeah. So that's. And.

[A]

And.

[B]

But also, there can be other compounds as well. Yeah. Okay. So that's the thing. So the. I think they. Now, I'm not disputing the research, once again. Yeah. Okay. I mean, I think there's like 18 studies or something where they. There was a 54% lower rate of urinary tract infections with cranberry juice consumption. But then once again. Okay, like, if you're having.

[A]

You know what, though, how much of that is from the water as well, because you've seen the studies. And just adding a liter.

[B]

I actually didn't even think about that. Okay, That's a good point.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

But my Thing is. Okay, okay what? You know, I think I looked up, I don't know, I was looking at brands in New Zealand, but I was. Yeah. Okay. And that. Because obviously you're moving to New Zealand. No, no, no, like obviously I love New Zealand. It's a beautiful place. Nothing against New Zealand, but I'm not moving there. So the. But there was like an organic. I can't remember the name of the brand. Yeah, okay, but it was like an organic cranberry juice.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

No, it was 946 mil bottle of organic cranberry juice. Okay. That like, that was 30, $36 New Zealand dollars. Okay. Now let's just get some context here.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

So preventative. Preventative. Okay. Based on literature and the research, I need to have 300 mil daily. Okay. So you're getting three glasses and one bottle done.

[A]

Yeah. Okay. And so what's we're talking like a hundred bucks a week. Is that.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. Like, I mean like it's pretty, isn't it pretty equivalent between like New Zealand dollar. I think obviously Australian dollar might be a little. That's pretty relatively similar, I think. Okay. So yeah, I mean that's, that's, that, that's a pretty hectic intervention.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Okay. And where I me personally, this is like what people should be doing and I'm sure you would agree with me around this is like do the, do the comparison, do the comparison between the dietary intervention. Okay. And the supplemental intervention. Okay. And also weigh it up if I can use a particular supplemental supplemental intervention. And then also I'm getting like this benefit and this benefit and this benefit. You gotta weigh that up because you know me, I'm really big on beta caraffine. Yeah. Okay. Which is a terpene. Okay. And they have used that for lower, lower urinary tract infections. I have mentioned this one. The downsides, okay. Is obviously, you know, experimental models and you know, marine models, okay. Like rats, mice, all that type of stuff. But beta caraffene reduce bacterial growth, pain, inflammation. Again, I don't want to get into the weeds of stuff that we've spoken about previously, like other benefits that you would get from that. Okay. But is that going to cost you daily that amount to deal with something if you are more prone to urinary tract infection? Now I would say beta caraffine is a negative gram bacteria powerhouse. Okay. So it decreases the abundance of proteobacteria which has actually been shown and it's very good around antibiotic resistant bacterial strains like E. Coli and pseudomy serginosa and staphylocob source. And they did that when they showed that the beta carathlete enhanced the effectiveness of the antibiotics. But anyway, I'm sort of getting sidetracked here. Okay. But you, you, you understand my point.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. So the, the tricky thing is some foods, you don't necessarily need that much to have a beneficial effect. So maybe should we talk about some examples where you just need truckloads and then we can throw in some examples that we actually do use or would recommend of foods where maybe it's more reasonable?

[B]

Yeah, I think that's a good, that's a, that's a good course of action. Where, yeah, where, so what, I guess the, the, the whole conversation here, okay. Is okay, if I'm looking to elicit this type of benefit, okay, we can talk about these dietary interventions, but are they realistic in what they're going to achieve? There's, yeah, okay. And that's where I was, I push back on the whole thing of, you know, supplements are only support. I mean, I, I, I think they're probably beyond that in a lot of instances now. Okay. And that's without us going into the weeds of like, you know, maybe the deterioration of food quality and all that type of stuff.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, totally. It's beyond that. I mean, like, what I always say to people is, I say diet is probably enough to maintain your level of health. And sure, if you're eating a very poor diet and you clean it up, of course your is going to improve. Right. There's no doubt about that. But if you've got actually a state of ill health, you've got, you know, various health symptoms, ailments, conditions you're dealing with, then like, really, honestly, I'd say diet is not going to be enough to actually reverse that or actually see significant improve there. Improvement.

[B]

What do you, what and what, what, but what would you say? Even in regards to performance? Yeah, like, do you, do you know what I mean? Like, like I, like, I would say, okay, if your goal is that you want to, let's say, have better brain capacity.

[A]

Yeah, so that's true. So even just optimization. Yeah, yeah, I think that's a good point. You could put optimization to that same category. Anti aging. Yeah, any of that. That's a good point. Really, it's almost like any goal you've got when it comes to like health and fitness, food is probably enough to move you one or two levels forwards or one or two steps forwards. But supplements can probably do what, three or four or five steps forward.

[B]

Yeah, I Think so. I mean, look, there. I would imagine there would be a lot of people that would disagree with us around that for sure. But, but, like, if you. You can't argue against, like, a lot of the literature and the research that you would look at, does that make sense?

[A]

Okay, well, it's kind of ludicrous because ultimately what a lot of supplementation is, is just a super, super concentrated extract of the food. And what you're saying that a food. Someone might say, look, this food has its benefit. And, and, and I get that not everything works this way, but, like, are you saying if we are able to harness the active compounds in that food, concentrate them down and take a higher dose of that, that we're not potentially going to see more of an impact?

[B]

Yeah. You know, like, so when I, you know, when I spent a bit of time with you in Newcastle, Okay. I think that we. We had a conversation around, like, blueberries. Yeah.

[A]

Okay. And.

[B]

And one of the compounds that I have actually done a fair bit of research around. Okay. Is the thing called. Because I just think this is a great example around this. Okay. Because this is not. I'm not talking about, like, I'm not talking about health ailments or neurogenic diseases. Okay. This is more around what I was talking about, around performance. Yeah.

[A]

Memory, executive function.

[B]

Exactly. Yeah. Okay. And we're having a joke, joke around, okay. About. Okay. To really get these benefits from consuming blueberries. When it comes to neurological. I'm not talking. Of course there's other benefits when it comes to blueberries. Like, we would say, like, amazing food around, you know, stuff to do with the guts and all that type of stuff. Yeah. Not. This is a different conversation. Yeah. Okay. I'm. I'm talking about cognitive. Cognitive performance here. Yeah. Okay. And so we sort of had a bit of a joke about it, okay. Like, oh, you might need a kilo or two kilos of blueberries or whatever that might be. Okay. So obviously I went away and I go, oh, I wonder how much you would. How much you would actually need.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

With the blueberries. Okay. Now it's got, like. So blueberries have got a thing called Pityera stillbein. Yes. You can get that from other foods. I'm not taking away. Not taking away from that. But the highest. I'm pretty sure the highest dietary source of pityera still bean. Okay. Is blueberries. Okay. And so what I think a lot of people do is tell me if you disagree with me around this, okay. Is they. They read something. Okay. Where they go, well, blueberries can be really good for the brain. Okay. And they latch onto that and they made the conclusion. They go, well, if you've got memory issues and I type of stuff, you just have some blueberries and then that's gonna. That's good. I'm not. I'm not saying don't do that. I'm not saying don't do that. Okay. But people need context. Is it really going to be like a needle mover? Okay. That's the thing. Okay. Are you going to really notice these. These improvements? So now pityro still being. Helps with many things. Okay. But it helps with synaptic transmission. Okay. Which is like neurotransmitters now. And they've done research around pityostil being with things like neurogenic diseases. That's a different conversation to how much you would need around that. Okay. So let's go just for performance. Okay. When it comes to the brain, and this was around like. Like cognitive. Like what they call cognitive flexibility. Okay. And working memory, they call life flexible thinking, all that type of stuff. So that's just performance. Would we agree with that? That would be parameters around performance when it comes to your brain. So that research was obviously on supplemental pterosilbene.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

And that was 20 milligrams twice a day. So we're looking at 40 milligrams. All right, so 40 milligrams of pytorastilbane. Now, bear in mind, blueberries are the highest source on pteryro still beam that I can, you know, decipher. Does that make sense? Okay, so we're looking how many blueberries potentially might. Now, obviously, I think there could be a bit of variance within this. Okay. But when I looked at it, okay. It was like something in the realms of like 75,000 blueberries. Yeah. Okay. Now. Now I just like, now eat blueberries. Okay.

[A]

I'm not.

[B]

I'm not saying don't do that, but to sit there and then put up a, like a story or post or something like that and go, oh, this is gonna be amazing around your brain. Well, you know what would be amazing around your brain? Maybe if you took the patera still beam. Yeah. Okay. Like that's.

[A]

And again, like, that doesn't mean. Cause there are some studies where they use like 2 cups of blueberries and they do notice some improvements. I think that's in elderly people.

[B]

And then there's. I'm not saying there's not stuff around like the dietary intervention. Okay. But I'm talking about.

[A]

Well, it's going to have a bigger Impact.

[B]

Bigger impact. Exactly. Right. Okay. I'm not saying no impact. That's not me saying no impact.

[A]

Yeah, well, yeah, because sometimes it's sort of on the verge, though. Like, you look at some of the study findings and it's like, oh, only just. There was only just some benefit, I think, in blueberries. Isn't there also, like 250 mil of juice? I think that was maybe in school age students. I think there was some improvement there in cognition.

[B]

Well, I know that you've done a lot of research around things like, you know, like blueberry juice and all that.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, I'm big on blueberries, but, you know, I have. I have a whole packet of wild blueberries a day, and I have blueberry juice. Wild blueberry juice, most days as well. Because I believe if I'm gonna get. If I'm really gonna get any benefit, that's how much I need to have.

[B]

Exactly. Yeah. Okay. And like, and, and the thing is, okay, we could say there's layers to this potentially as well. Yeah. Okay. So, okay, let's say if you wanted to get those significant benefits. Okay, let's say, like, let's say your job was really dependent on, you know, cognitive performance and all that type of stuff. Okay, well, I'm not saying don't have the blueberry juice, don't have the blueberries, but then you might go, you know what, Just for added boost, I have a little bit of pity still being on top of that. Do you know what I mean? Okay, I'm not saying people have to do that either. This is.

[A]

This is a conversation for another day as well, though, Dave. But how often then if you go look at the studies, look at what doses, think like you've just said there, and then go look at the supplements. And how often are the supplements? Way under dose as well. Man, that's. I mean, that's a whole other coalition.

[B]

That's a whole other conversation.

[A]

But sometimes it'll be 1/10, 1/20 of what's being used in the studies.

[B]

Yes, yes. I mean, that's a. That's a conversation itself. Okay, but I guess, what sort of ergothioneine.

[A]

Hey, here's an example for you. I was. Have you seen that study in ergothioneine and dysmenorrhea? No, no, there's a study, I think it's a fairly new one on ergothioneine, which is obviously a compound in mushroom. I mean, God, how much mushroom you'd need to eat to get this amount of ergothioneine I don't.

[B]

That's one point.

[A]

But the study is using, I think it's using like, oh, 50 to 100 milligrams of ergothioneine, something along those lines. And most ergothioneine supplements are like, 1 to 5 milligrams.

[B]

Yeah, that's a great point.

[A]

So we're talking like, 10 plus servings just to match what's in the study. What are you going to do with that? What's 1 milligram of ergo?

[B]

That is a really good point. That is a really good point.

[A]

Yeah. Because it might.

[B]

I might. It might sound like I'm like, you know, have this bias towards, you know, supplementation. Okay. Which I like. I just. I just don't like this whole idea of just saying that. It's. It's just. It's just really like.

[A]

It's.

[B]

It's like putting the cherry on.

[A]

Yeah. It's icing on top of the cake. You know, the diet's a big thing. I. You know what? I always say this to clients when I do a consult. I'll go through all these supplements first. Right. I'd be like, look, based on your bloods, you know, here's the nutritional issues we saw came up come up here. Some of the major concerns, whatever, here's the supplementation. And then I talk about diet, and I say, look, here are the foods that are going to help with the blood markers we just identified. And, you know, I'll have a list. You know, maybe they've got low hemoglobin. We might talk about beetroot juice. We might talk about pomegranate juice. We might talk about kefir, whatever. And I'll go through it and I'll say, the reality is you don't actually need to eat any of these foods because the supplements are going to do a better job. But if you wanted to add in some of these foods on top of it, you could.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Okay. And that's the thing. Okay. Because I like. I guess one particular compound that actually probably sparked this thought that I was having around this. It was actually ages ago.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Was actually quercetin. Yeah.

[A]

God, yeah. How much are you getting in onion or capers?

[B]

And I just have. People would go, yeah, you know, well, you know, onion is like red onion. Yeah. They talk about red onion. Okay. Like being a really good source of quercinine. And I go, listen, okay, this. This is the.

[A]

This is the.

[B]

This is the thing around getting context. Okay. Because would you agree. Okay. Like, you're gonna you're gonna put quercident as a compound. It's right up there. Yeah. Okay. It's. It's in the, you know, it's in, I wouldn't say full goat. Okay. You know, grace of all time. Okay. But it's right up there when it's

[A]

certainly got a lot of utility.

[B]

It unbelievable. As a compound.

[A]

Like.

[B]

Yeah, there's no disputing that. Yeah, yeah. Like a, like a. Yeah. It is an amazing bioflavonoid. Flavonoid. Okay. So now to get context. Okay. So I actually put up some information around this the other day. So. Okay. So it's especially in my mind so I, I can remember it. Yeah. Okay. So they had. This was to do with the thing called sarcoidosis. Okay. Which is just like an inflammatory disease. Okay. Because obviously one of the big things around quercetin is what reducing inflammation. Okay. Reduce the oxidative stress. So I'm not talking, but I'm not talking directly around. Okay. What, what dosage would you require to correct a particular ailment condition? Even though, yes, I know that research was based around sarcoidosis, but really it was more around the reduction oxidative stress and the reduction in inflammation. I'm not talking about rectifying the sarcoidosis. Does that make sense? Okay, so that was, you know, I'm pretty sure it was a double blinded study. Okay. Two groups. Okay. Now they. To actually help with that reduction in inflammation and oxidative stress. Okay. They were using four times 500 milligrams orally.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So 2,000 milligrams. Yeah. Okay. And we'd say probably that's a dosage that is pretty effective for things like pulmonary issues and respiratory and asthma and all that type of stuff. Yeah.

[A]

So standard dose.

[B]

Now if we look at the highest sources of quercetin, obviously I get the red onion thing all the time.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

And I've seen people put up information saying, you want quercetin, have red onion. I go, yeah, but like, you're not giving much context around that. You're making it sound like red onion is equivalent to taking like quercetin as a supplement. Okay. That's just not the case. Great. It's got quercetin in there. Okay. But capers. Yeah. Okay. Is the highest dietary source equivalent.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

You get anywhere between 100, 170 to 230 milligrams. Okay. Per. Per 100 grams. Okay. So if I wanted to get. Okay, close to that, let's say the medicinal benefit that I'm talking about. Okay, yeah. Because I understand that obviously there's other things that have closed in it and all that type of stuff. Yeah.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

But I'm just talking about highest dietary source when it comes to the question. Okay, well, you're getting that. That's like a kilo of capers.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Okay. Now if you, if you get to a point where you got to go, well, I'm going to get the, the dietary intervention, okay. I'm going to try and eat as many capers as possible. Don't worry about, like, if you're getting the medicinal benefit of the, the capers and the quercet, okay, you're probably going to be sitting on the toilet, okay. For about two weeks.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

If you, if you eat a kilo of capers, Definitely, if you eat 75, 000 blueberries, okay, that's gonna be like someone put. Not the hand grenade up your backside, okay. But like a bloody bazooka up your backside.

[A]

Yeah. Okay.

[B]

So that's. I mean, don't you agree? It's just like that. It's the lack of context, okay. That is just if someone put that up and then gave the context that you would have, like, look, you're getting this amount and you need this. I'm great.

[A]

And again, you know, there was, I don't know if you've seen that study, obviously, observational data, but they looked at like, dietary intake and IBD risk, and those who had the highest intake of onion had a lower IBD risk, and they think it was because of quercetin intake. But. And again, you know, the absolute risk reduction is not that large. But it's interesting. But does that mean it's enough to treat a condition or to, you know, get these sort of meaningful changes we're talking about?

[B]

No.

[A]

You know, again, the food is the supplement, the supplement is the treatment or is it the actual therapeutic intervention?

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. Once again, okay. My big gripe, okay, is just like the, the lack of context. Yeah. Okay. Because I'm just not. I'm not for. Just not giving the nuance, not giving the context, saying something. And then people have this perception, well, if I do that, okay, this is going to be the. A massive needle mover, okay, to why my brain has not been functioning that well or whatever. Whatever that might be. Or now I'm gonna. There's gonna be a massive reduction in the inflammatory load that I've been experiencing. Okay. But just for that individual, okay, they need to understand, okay, the big needle mover for them, okay, would be okay if I'm having that. That. So if I'm isolating that particular compound, then I'm able to have that in a higher concentration according to some of the things that I've been dealing with, then it's going to deliver far better outcomes. At the same time, I'm not saying don't use the dietary intervention, but I can't be under the illusion that it's going to be this massive game, Game changer for that individual. Yeah. Okay. Does that. Yeah. I feel like I could use so many examples around.

[A]

We're going to give some examples at a moment of foods that maybe could actually have.

[B]

It does sound a little bit like doom and gloom at the moment. Okay, but.

[A]

But before we do give some of those examples, what's. Let's do one more. What's. What's like a major one that you'd see a lot of people talk about food wise. Can you think of any?

[B]

Well, like, I feel like you've got something on, on your mind. Okay. But one had that. Now this is probably not on a lot of people's radar, so I'm sure you're going to chime in with something that would be on people's radar. Okay. But I am really big on D. Limoning, as you know. Okay.

[A]

Which is probably not what I was thinking in terms of a commonly discussed one, but.

[B]

Okay, let's not it. But you know, I am really big on it. Okay. It's a terpene. Okay. And I think one of the best compounds going around to actually help with things like mucin and mucus secretion. Okay. And so you can find research. Okay. Around that. Okay. Yes. It was on Worcester. Rats. It was on rats. Okay. It was like 50 milligrams. Okay. Obviously this is the, the rat and the mice dosage. Okay. I think that's sort of equated to. It's like the, the lowest effective dose to actually help with reduction in gastric ulcers. Yeah. Okay. But I'm just talking about protection around the stomach lining and all that stuff. Okay. I think in humans it converts to about like 8.1 milligrams. Yeah. Okay. That's per kilo. Yeah. Now, D. Limonene is in high abundance. Okay. In the rind of oranges, lemons, limes, all that type of stuff. So the average. I think orange peel is the highest. Okay. So the, the average orange peel contains about 35, 35 to 40 milligrams of D. Limonene. But what I would recommend to help with what I'm talking about Here, things like mucin and mucus secretion. Again, you probably need about 600 milligrams of the D? Limonene. And I'm not talking about all the other benefits that you get with D. Limonene. Efflux pump inhibitor. Great. Around bacteria, all that type of stuff. There you go. 600 milligrams. Okay. Like, the thing is. Okay. Because I've. I've heard people say that. Okay. Like, you know, you just. You grate the orange.

[A]

Lime. Yeah. Just add a little bit of peel in and you'll be fine.

[B]

Okay. And then you get all these. You get all these. Not. Not take. Once again, not saying. Don't do that.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Okay. And you're getting all these amazing health benefits ago. Okay. Well, in regards to D. Limiting, you're gonna have to. It's gonna have to be eight orange pills.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. I feel like you had an example. Okay.

[A]

I didn't really. I mean, like, that's. That's an interesting one. I haven't even heard, really, people talk about actually getting it dietarily like that. So that's.

[B]

Yeah. Because like, the other thing is you can get D? Limonene from aerosols. You know what I mean by that? Okay. So you're just breathing it in.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Okay. But yeah, I can. I can mention that to people. Okay. So of course, I promote my clients to do that. Okay. Get out in nature, walk along the riverbank.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Okay. You know, I think they say you can. There's such a high amount of D? Limonene. Okay. In nature. Because D? Limonene, you actually find it in pine, like pine trees and all that type of stuff. Okay. So you can actually breathe it in. But we, like, we gotta sit in reality as well. Yeah. Okay. Like, how often is someone gonna do that?

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

Now they should be doing it often. Okay. Like, they should be. But the reality is, what. They might do it once a week at best. Yeah. Okay. Or something like that. So then is that really, like saying that you just like, you know, grating a bit of like orange peel and then just getting into nature. Okay. That we're talking about these, you know, these benefits that you would get with someone like D. Limone.

[A]

How meaningful is that going to be? Yeah, that's the thing.

[B]

It's just. It just comes down to like the whole conversation around, like needle mover, really.

[A]

And, you know, for some people, some of these things might be. So, you know, in the. In the context of what you were just talking about there. Exposure to nature, you know, some people Might be like, you know, I live, I back onto a bloody reserve, nature reserve, and it's, it's easy for me to go do that daily. And, you know, great, okay, perfect. Do that daily. You know, it's like, for me, it's like earthing or grounding. You know, I'll. Every time I talk to a client, if I've got a client who's got inflammation, they've got adrenal issues, whatever, I'll ask him, is this something that's feasible for you? Do you have like, you know, a patch of grass outside your house? Could you actually sit there, have your coffee, have your tea in the morning, whatever, for 20, 30 minutes a day, is that feasible? And some people be like, nah, I live in a concrete jungle. I have to drive 20 minutes to get to my closest park. Not feasible. This is not a worthwhile intervention for you. You know, other people like, yeah, I do that anyway. I just don't take my shoes off. Great, Easy. How simple. Take your shoes off and it's done. You know, like, it's. We always need to be looking at, I think, have all of these tools in our toolbox and then find out for that person what here is a viable tool for you. You know, and some of this is not going to be a massive sacrifice and some of it is just not going to be reasonable. I didn't really have any great examples. I think one would be anything Nash related. Like, when you look at, for me, when you look at any of the data, when I look at any of the data on nuts and legumes and, you know, whether it's stuff around what, you know, pistachios and sleep or whether it's stuff around, you know, almonds and skin health. You know, the data is interesting, but we're talking like, like, I think that almond study and it was like postmenopausal women, it was helping with like, wrinkles and skin hydration and stuff. Again, I think it's really interesting. But how much?

[B]

How much? Because I, I mean, I remember, I think we might have talked about that one, like ages ago. Yeah, but like, what was the, what was the amount on that?

[A]

It was, I think it was. It was either 20 or 30% of the daily calories coming from almonds. Like, that's, that's a, that's a, you know, a quarter, a third of your diet is, Is almonds. It's a fair bit of almonds. If you love almonds.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

I mean, obviously there's a potential oxalate issue at that amount but you know, again, it's. This stuff is interesting, but how many of these foods can you add in to that volume, you know, you want to have?

[B]

Yeah, that's true. You know, I actually thought of a, like, it just came to me just then. I actually thought of a really interesting point around this as well. Okay. Is that because obviously, you know, I feel like some people might feel like we're sort of tilting it towards like the supplemental intervention, all that type of stuff. But I do want to make this clear as well. Okay. And we can use examples around this. So then it comes down to like, certain compounds and the medicinal benefits that you're getting from those compounds within the food. Okay. Is it possible that sometimes the bioavailability of that compound within. This is a good point, isn't it? Yeah.

[A]

Okay, well, I wondered that about the melatonin. I don't know if that's true or not, but it's possible I might be wrong, that maybe the melatonin based or found in some of these foods might be more bioavailable than supplemental melatonin.

[B]

Yeah, but, but there's. So there's that factor. Okay. But also there's a factor that. Okay. Is if that, that compound as a supplement. Okay. Is it highly effective as a supplemental intervention from, from a, like a, like a bioavailability perspective and so forth, or is the dietary intervention a little bit better? Okay. Yeah, the, the. So the example, it could go either way. Yeah, yeah, that's what I'm saying. Okay. Because like we spoke, obviously we did a whole podcast talking about like the, the benefits of coffee around the gut lining. Okay. And so one of the compounds we talked about in regards to that. Okay. So we talked about hydroxycinnamic acids. Yeah. Okay. Being caffeic acid and ferulic acid. Yeah. Now you can, I'm pretty sure you can find like caffeic acid as a supplemental intervention. Okay. But from my understanding, okay. That really, the consumption when it comes to caffeic acid is going to be better as a dietary intervention. So it's actually like caffeic acid rich foods. They're actually showing to have benefits around like when they induce colitis, which is an IBD condition. Okay. Now, so in that regards, okay, well, yes, brewed coffee is high in caffeic acid, but also chokeberries. Okay. Which is actually, they're actually known as arona berries. Okay. Which you might have actually been able to get that. Like, because obviously finding chokeberries can be a little bit tough, but you can actually get aronia Berry juice. Okay. That's really rich in cathetic acid. Okay. So, like, I just think that's pretty important to, to point out as well. Okay. That in some instances, okay, the dietary intervention can actually be better than the supplements.

[A]

I mean, you could probably make that argument, even with something like fish oil, that if you consume your fatty fish, it's arguably going to be better if you, if you get enough than actually supplementing.

[B]

Well, the, the. Yeah, the b. I mean, the big question around that would be getting enough, wouldn't it?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

So, yeah, iron, that would be another one. I mean, look, and not that, you know, we're obviously not advocates really for supplemental iron, but look, the form of, of iron, yeast and supplements, compare that to the iron you would get in. In dietary meat and obviously the heme iron and dietary meat is going to be substantially better. So, yeah, definitely there's argument for some dietary interventions, for sure. You mentioned the juice, the Aronia juice. I think juice. I know you started by talking about tart cherry juice, and there's another juice you mentioned, the cranberry juice. I actually think juice is really underrated when it comes to dietary interventions. And I think you're going to have an easier time, a lot of the time actually getting an efficacious dose in juice than you're going to. In eating the actual whole food. And there's quite a lot of juices that I think.

[B]

Could you let. Just to expand on that, like, obviously I'll let you go into the juice side of things, but could you also say sort of like these more like liquid sort of like interventions?

[A]

Yeah, that's fair. Yeah, yeah.

[B]

Because like, like, obviously we spoke about in the past, like apple cider vinegar, for example.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's a great example.

[B]

Which is. Yeah. Which obviously was that Lebanese.

[A]

Well, you know that actually that study, young adults. Yeah, that study got redacted and I don't know why.

[B]

Oh, really?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But then wasn't that based on like. Well, it's just like as low as 5 mil. Okay. Where they went down from 79 to 74 and 10 mil. 79 to 74, 72 kilo or something like that? 15 mil, which didn't deliver a better outcome than the 10 mil. Okay. But anyway, it's interesting that you say that that got.

[A]

Not redactive, but obviously there are other studies that are seeing similar benefits in terms of metabolic function. And you know, generally you would say that 15 mil seems to be about the sweet spot there. There was another study in apple cider vinegar. I Don't know if we've talked about this or not. It was in college students and they, they assessed mood or depressive symptoms. Do you know this study, I don't think I've seen it and I'm fairly sure it was 15 mil daily. I think it wasn't a huge amount. It was somewhere along those lines that introduced depressive symptoms and they speculated it had a beneficial effect around dopamine, I believe. You know, I wasn't expecting me talking about apple cider vinegar, so I didn't brush up in the study. But obviously this is a good example of a food where you don't actually need that much. And arguably if you were to look at the supplements, the apple cider vinegar is going to be better than the supplements. You're probably not going to get enough.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Acetic acid in, in the supplement than you will be getting in the vinegar.

[B]

Yeah. But like, just to elaborate on your point again, obviously I'm sure there's some other things you're going to communicate around that. Okay. It does seem like a lot of these sort of liquid, like whether we want to call it like a liquid dietary intervention. Okay. Because I mean we call coffee a liquid intervention. A dietary intervention. And the stuff around reducing risk of gastric cancer and high risk populations and all that type of like bone broth is a, is a liquid intervention. Okay.

[A]

And there's, which you know, again, obviously guard is a little bit sketchy and bone broth, it's animal studies. So how much do you need?

[B]

Well, it's limited, isn't it? It's just limited.

[A]

Limited. Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. But I mean decreasing symptoms around ulcerative colitis and the, you know, the anti inflammatory properties. Yeah. Okay. So but I, look, I, I agree, okay. In terms of. It is a little bit. There's not substantial stuff around that. Okay. But there is, there is some stuff. Okay. But I guess my thing is this even like, you know, the stuff around like extra virgin olive oil. Yeah, okay.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

Do you know what I mean? Because there's stuff around like that. I think we've spoken about this in regards to things like you know, gastritis and.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Tropic gastritis. I couldn't remember the dose but that was, that was actually around because obviously with like helicobacter and H. Pylori. Okay. You've obviously got. Because from our perspective, okay. Non invasive mucosa colonizer. So there is like you. But you do have pathogenic strains of Helicobacter and H. Pylori. Yeah. Okay. So there's. There's the more virulent forms. Okay. And so what they actually showed with the extra virgin olive oil, I think was effective against like eight different strains of helicobacter and H. Pylori. Some of them obviously been, like, pathogenic in nature. That was. I can't remember the dosage. It's a good question. Okay, but look, although I might be clutching at stores a little bit. Okay, well, I don't think it was a very high dosage around that. Okay. But that's the, you know, I know it's obviously fats. Yeah. It's sort of like a liquid intervention again, isn't it?

[A]

Yeah, yeah, sort of. Yeah. I mean, and then, yeah, I mean, the, the oils are interesting because I guess, you know, you could then put like coconut oil into that category as well. And then obviously, if you look at like the caprylic acid content of coconut oil, that can be quite significant. So you could argue oils would be a, you know, one sort of category in and of itself. But even if you moved away from the fat and moved away from the oils, I mean, I would say coconut water, that would be one. That would be a substantial intervention, just purely based on the. Really just the potassium intake and content of that. And, you know, similar to the bone broth, obviously that's going to be very high in potassium as well. But, you know, one. One carrot juice? Well, yeah, I mean, carrot juice is probably worth its mention, you know, on its own, but one cup of coconut water or you could say a cup of carrot juice. I mean, that's going to have more potassium than an electrolyte supplement. So not the way against electrolyte supplements. I think a lot of people will benefit from them. But, you know, you could literally just be having a cup of coconut water.

[B]

Oh, yeah. I would strongly argue now that those dietary. Those liquid, dietary interventions are better.

[A]

I mean, pomegranate. You've seen this stuff on, on calcitectin and pomegranate juice. Yeah, that was 250mil a day. That's one cup. That's a small cup. One small cup of pomegranate juice daily. Reduce calpritectin in people with IB eat. That's amazing.

[B]

But even as. I mean, I don't know if this was in relation to the juice. I think it was in relation to the juice around, like, salivary testosterone levels.

[A]

Okay. Yeah, I'd have to go back and check that.

[B]

Yeah, well, that was pomegranate consumption, so I just can't remember if it was the juice. I think it was the juice.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

And then obviously, you know, I mean, bear in mind, it comes probably comes back to the argument of like how much the consumption, because I think there's something like around 500 mils. Okay. Which is a decent amount of public. And that's obviously not that cheap either. Okay.

[A]

You know what? Coles. Coles do organic pomegranate juice.

[B]

Are we going to start. You haven't got any clips of you walking around the supermarket?

[A]

Supermarket, no. But honestly, it's like eight bucks a bottle. It's a liter of organic wild pomegranate juice.

[B]

Let people let us know if you want us to start walking around a supermarket together. Yeah.

[A]

We'll do cooking episodes. Jake and Dave cooking. Yeah. I mean, like, honestly, I do think that that's a reasonable. If you're, you know, you're getting four days worth out of a bottle, if you're doing a cup a day, I think that's actually reasonable. You know, I, I, and the way I use that, I get clients to have that as an intra workout. And because we know that there's good data on, on drinking something like juice, something sweet in your workout reduces CNS fatigue, it's going to increase performance and it's a way to get additional benefits. Like in this case, intestinal inflammation. You know, there's stuff around like orange juice. One cup of oj. You've seen this. One cup of orange juice significantly reduces circulating endotoxins after like.

[B]

Yeah. Metabolic endotoxin. Endotoxins. Yeah. Lipid polysaccharides.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I mean, it does, like, because even I think we've spoken about this, this is probably not as practical, to be honest.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Because I don't know if you want to do it. Okay. There's stuff around radish juice as well.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

And that was in regards to, you're probably saying gallbladder.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Because of the lowering in like total. Billy Rubin.

[A]

Well, what about cabbage juice for gastronomies and stomach ulcers?

[B]

Yeah. Because that's not even that like. Well, I'm trying to. That's not even a high amount, was it? Okay, that's. That, that's a real good one. Okay. Because that, that was the stuff around small. I think there was a small amount of participants in, in one of the research papers they did. They compared it to standard medical treatment. Okay. Which I think was like ranitidine or something like that. Okay. To do with like, it was to do with like gastric ulcer healing time. Yeah.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And the Standard medical treatment. I think it was around a tight. I might be wrong, but it was like 42 days.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Okay. And then they compared that to. It might have been what, white cabbage juice in the, in that research. Okay. But it doesn't matter with the color of the cabbage juice. Okay. It was 7.3 days. And I like from memory. Okay. That. Because obviously it's the bind menu. Yeah. Okay. I don't think that has to be that high with the cabbages. That's a, that's a, that's a very good. But once again, this is sort of like this liquid intervention.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. Okay. So that's another really good one. Okay. Yeah, A lot of them, they're, they're either these sort of like oils or. I mean. Yeah, once again, you could probably put honey. Like, like, I mean you, you know a lot about honey. Okay. But that's a pretty amazing dietary intervention, isn't it?

[A]

Yeah, I mean, obviously depending on, on the purpose of it. Again, you know, like that I mentioned around hay fever. Well, again, you know, that study was, I'm pretty sure is 1 gram per kilo of body weight. So that's pretty significant. But then if you look at like say cough, coughing for when people are sick, they're using, you know, 10 to 20 grams. Okay. And, and that's, I'm pretty sure they compare that to cough medication. And it was, I'm fairly sure it was, you know, equivalent in efficacy, you know, 10, 20.

[B]

What about some of the stuff around like hepatic to do with the liver? Yeah, like.

[A]

Well, you've seen that study on alcohol elimination?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Have you seen that one? It's, I don't know, unbelievable. It had speeds up the, the elimination of alcohol. So, you know, in terms of helping with a hangover, like, absolutely unbelievable. If you guys are interested, look up that study. It is, it is mind boggling how effective it is. And they're using something like 60 grams, which, you know, sounds like a lot. But if you think about it, it's, you know, a good tablespoon before you go out, maybe another tablespoon in the middle of the night, like when you're out in the evening, and then a tablespoon spoon when you get back or, you know, good heaping tablespoon. That's probably going to get you pretty close there. So that's the thing with these liquids as well is like some of the, the amounts might sound like a lot, but it's a lot easier to consume that amount in liquid than it is in physical, in solid Food.

[B]

Because another. Another one I just thought of is, like, the stuff around, like, raw camel milk. Okay. Now obviously we could say that's not the easiest thing to source. Okay. Even though I could probably argue it should be.

[A]

Here's another. Another little advert for you. So Harris Farm, I've just noticed they've started stocking.

[B]

Yes, I do know that because one of my clients. Yeah, one of my clients told me that they can actually get raw camel milk. Okay. But I don't know. Look, I don't know what it costs in like, Harris Farm here guy, but, you know, last time I checked, I think like a, what, a liter cost about $18 or something.

[A]

Yeah, I think it was like 16 bucks for a liter.

[B]

Maybe it's come down a little bit. Okay, that's progress. Yeah. It's probably one of the few things that has actually come down okay. In price. So get onto the camel milk.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

But the amazing. Because obviously this research is directly on your raw camel milk. Okay. Now we would argue, okay, that, okay, this is really coming from lactoferrin.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. And bear in mind pasteurize is going to reduce the amount of lactoferrin.

[B]

Yes, yes, that's a very good point.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

But they say raw camel milk, okay, has anywhere, what, you know, sevenfold increase from bovine, okay. When it comes to lactoferrin in what, 30 to 100 times. Somewhere in that realm, like the amount of lactoferrin. So one thing I do want to say that's really the benefits I'm talking about here. That's where you're really getting the benefits. And maybe if you look at it and then you go, okay, what's going to be more economical? Do I have the raw milk on a consistent basis, which I don't think on the research was based on having too high amount of the raw milk. And raw camel milk. I think it might have been in the 200 mil mark. I would say that's a big glass of, like, you know, milk. But again, what's going to be.

[A]

That's a small glass of milk. You're a milk novice.

[B]

I said. I said I don't think that's too big a glass.

[A]

Okay. I thought you said that's a big glass of milk. Okay.

[B]

Far from it.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Don't, you know, don't downplay my. My love of milk. Yeah, okay, so they. But, yeah, look, I could argue that maybe when you do the math, okay, maybe like actually having the lactoferrin, even though lactoferrin is a bit of A premium, isn't it?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Okay. So.

[A]

Well, this is tr. Yeah.

[B]

Okay. But anyway, my point was, okay, they actually did this raw chamomil. They actually compared it to albendazole, which is a pharmaceutical anti helminth medication. Okay. And they actually showed that the raw camel milk created 100 mortality with the helmets. That was better than the albendazole. That's not me saying that the albendazole didn't work at all. Okay. But in that research, the raw camel milk. Okay. Was more. More effect. I mean, 100 mortality is more effective. And the other one is around Blastocyst hominis. Yeah. Okay. Because the. You generally say like. And obviously we won't get into the weeds of like. Okay. Is it really obviously gonna have a symbolic relationship with the blastocystis? Ominous. And we've already spoken about that in, you know, past. You know, like a past podcast episode. Maybe over a couple of podcast episodes. Okay. But the. The big thing here is. Okay. Is more that. But what they've tried to do with somewhat Blastocystis hominis in the past antibiotics and just hasn't made no dent on that whatsoever. Yeah. Okay. So they. Now this is. So it was raw camel milk. Okay. Obviously it's a dose dependent manner. So it's dose dependent. Okay. But you've got different subtypes of blastocystominas. Okay. So in that research, I think it was ST1, ST3. Okay. And they. Both of those are found in humans. Okay. And was shown to have anti parasitic. That's raw chemical milk.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Okay. And then I've spoken about in the. You know, I love donkey milk. You know, that's probably not that easy to get.

[A]

Okay. I don't have that a Harris farm.

[B]

Okay. But because of the high concentration of lysozyme, it's so high in lysozyme. And then that should show that the donkey milk, because it's so high in lysozyme. Lysozyme works on the principle of lysis where it ruptures the cell wall, ruptures the cell membrane, does that quite rapidly under about seven days. So you're getting those benefits again. But also lysozyme is incredibly beneficial for panacell recovery, restore panacel function and rescue pennis cell. So hard dietary intervention. I do admit that. Okay. But it's just another. There's another liquid intervention. That's my point.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's not. Not quite a liquid, but one that's really grown on me is Cacao.

[B]

And this is a good one.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. And one, one thing I really like about it is obviously the magnesium content, but also if you think about it like, what are you going to do with cacao? You'll make a hot chocolate. Yeah. So if you make it with, because there's studies on, on milk before bed. Have you seen that, like milk before bed improving subjective sleep quality. There's studies on honey before bed. Obviously honey can help, help the, the fructose will help with like liver glucose and, or glycogen and then help maintain blood glucose overnight. So that can help with sleep quality as well. So one thing I would do and obviously the, the magnesium content I mentioned in cacao, I forget off the top of my head how much, but you know, it's, it's really significant as far as food goes. So having like a hot chocolate made with cacao with milk with some honey in it, I think that's a great evening meal, hot meal, evening beverage that could significantly improve sleep quality. Especially for someone who, you know, every now and then this is not going to be many people, but every now and then you might get someone who's quite sensitive to magnesium supplementation. I've had, you know, only a handful of people over, over the, you know, time I've been coaching, but there's still a handful of people who just can't have any magnesium. And I've tried different magnesium supplements with them and you know, sometimes I've even had clients where they literally open up the supplement, dip their little finger in a little bit powder, put it on their tongue and that's enough for them to get a negative response to it. But they have something like cacao and they're okay with it. So that's one I quite like. Here's one that I don't know if you'll ever have thought about is tomato paste. Have you looked into any of the tomato paste?

[B]

Are you surprised? No, no, I haven't looked into tomato paste, but I like it. You know me, I, I, I, I'm a big fan of tomatoes actually. Okay. Because obviously like, you know, the lycopene, but you could get into the weeds of like, how much lycopene do you get in a lot of tomatoes nowadays?

[A]

Yeah, well that's true again, you know, it's lowering quality of tomatoes. But these observational data, you might have seen this on, on IBD and tomato. Actually, you know what, it was on tomato salsa. So tomato salsa was associated with reduction in IBD risk. But that's not the study I want to talk about. There's for. Well, actually, for starters, do you know how much potassium is in tomato paste?

[B]

Well, I know tomato juice.

[A]

Yeah. Okay. Yeah, it's probably very similar benefits.

[B]

I wouldn't be like, up there, carrots, carrot juice being, you know, carrot juice, coconut water. Then I think orange juice, and then I think maybe tomato juice is higher than.

[A]

Well, I'm pretty sure. I think pomegranate juice might be higher than orange juice. And, you know, milk is pretty high as well, to be fair. But tomato paste, it's something like a thousand milligrams of potassium per 100 grams, which is pretty phenomenal. That is a lot of potassium. Anyway, there's a study that was just published, I think, like last month, and they used. I think it was half. A. Half a gram per kilo of body weight. So, you know, that's not excessive. And they measured cognitive ability and there was like, significant increases in cognitive function. They even did, like, brain scans and there's even, like, actual notable changes in the brain scan after having half a gram of. Of tomato paste per kilo. So. And I think they put that down to lycopene. But, you know, hey, that amount of potassium, most people are not getting enough potassium. Surely that's going to have some benefit as well. And you could, you could almost say that's a liquid. It's. It's a semi. Semi solid.

[B]

We're turning into a liquid. Liquid intervention.

[A]

Well, honestly, I do. I do believe that. I do believe that liquids and doesn't mean that there's no solids that are good. You know, kiwi fruit. I think kiwi fruit is.

[B]

No, we're not, we're not advocating for people to, to sit there and just like every single thing they're putting. They're there and tomato juice and orange juice and bone broth and lots of stuff. I mean, because as you pointed out, I mean, the, like, go. I think we've spoken about this in regards to. I think we might have done a podcast where we talked about the. The impact of the foods that you eat on your internal biomarkers and all that type of stuff. Okay. I think there's no doubt that oily fish. Okay. I was a. Was huge around that. Okay. And, you know, I think there's some stuff around mackerel. Okay. Like, obviously, I think isn't that number one when it comes to omega 3 fatty acids? I think it might be. Okay. And it just. The influence on, like, like minimizing cardiovascular risk. Yeah. Okay. And there's that. I think they did that one. And like, sardines, where it was like, it was based on a decent amount of sardines.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Okay. But there was like 100 grams of sardines five days out of the week and go. And not. I'm just talking about, like, you know, improvement of, like, blood pressure indices and minimizing, you know, coronary heart disease and all that type of stuff. It goes. So 500. I don't know. Do you think 500 grams of sardines is. Is a lot a week? I mean, it's. Yeah, I mean, it's a lot of sardines. Yeah. Okay. But like, but it's doable.

[A]

Like, and, and this is a point I was trying to make before is that you have to pick the food intervention because you can't do all of them, you know, if.

[B]

Yeah, well, that's our big point, isn't it? Okay. You can't go, I'm gonna have 300 mil of cranberry juice every single day. But that's. Is. Well, I guess you could do that,

[A]

but it's going to be expensive. Yeah.

[B]

Okay. But you doing 100 grams of sardines and doing that five days out of the week, that is doable. It's a different conversation. You turn around and say, I don't like sardines.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I've done my time with sardines. I'm not doing that anymore. But.

[B]

But you can actually physically do the consistency.

[A]

Can do it.

[B]

You can do it.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And even, like, you know, some of the stuff that we've talked about. Okay. Like just consuming carrots. Okay, yeah.

[A]

This is true. I mean.

[B]

Yeah, there's just reduction in, like, 26. Reduction in instances of, like, gastric cancer when you do that. Okay.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Have you seen how much more bioavailable beta carotene is induced carrots than in solid carrots?

[B]

I haven't seen that.

[A]

Significantly more. I can't remember off the top of my head, but it was significantly more. I do think carrot juice is definitely a good one. It's just.

[B]

Is it solely just to do with, like, the absorption into the.

[A]

Into the gut line? It was. I can't remember exactly what it's. I think it was a fairly new study.

[B]

Yeah. Okay.

[A]

Yeah, I'll send it to you afterwards.

[B]

I mean, sometimes you, like, you can, like, you know what we're talking about with the research. Okay. Like, you just, like, you gotta. You, like. Okay, so. So I'll give you an example. Okay. Like, where, like, I'm a big fan of okra, for example. Yeah.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Like, and I love that around smooth peristalsis and lubrication, large intestine, you know, stuffed around ulcers. But then if you look at the research, go, where's all the research coming from? Yeah, go. Well, it's. It's going to be like, you know, the okra extract.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

100.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Okay. So then there's like, you know, in that. Okay, that's got benefit, but you're doing sort of 100 milligram, 500 milligrams. Okay, well, it might be 100 milligrams, 250. 500 milligrams. Okay. And that's helping with inhibition of like, ulcer formation. Okay. But not to say. Okay, now, interesting enough. Okay. You can actually, there's stuff around aqua water. Okay. With like, you know, blood sugar management regulations. There was stuff around like Tai2 diet, BDS. Okay. So there is stuff around like the okra itself. Okay. But that, I'm just saying that you will find stuff where it's like, it could be celery extract or it could be okra extract. Yeah. Okay. Yes. You'll still get somewhat. Get benefits around that. Okay. But is it, is it going to be exactly the same, you know, to what they're finding with the, the higher. The extract, you know, the high concentration of the extract?

[A]

Yeah, yeah. Aloe vera juice. That'll be another one. I mean, obviously around like thyroid antibodies. You need what, about 30 mil or something like that? So not a huge amount. And then do you remember how much they're using? There's some studies around, like, is it intestinal inflammation or. Or IBS symptoms? I forget now to. With which one for aloe vera juice.

[B]

Oh, aloe vera juice. Yeah. Okay. Like, like in terms of how much they're using.

[A]

Yeah. I remember there was one study, I think it was. It was either IBS or ibd. And it had.

[B]

Because, Because, I mean, obviously the big thing with aloe vera juice gave the Interleukin 10. Yeah, okay. All 10. And because it increases Interleukin 10. Okay. Which actually Interleukin 10 helps with the reason around the IBD. It's interesting you're saying that. Okay. Because Interleukin 10 helps with THE integrity of panacells. That's what actually helps with. Yeah. Okay. So it's probably more from like that mechanism perspective. Okay. But I'm trying to remember, like, I actually can't remember the dosage.

[A]

I'm sure it can't have been much. I mean, too much you'll give yourself IBS symptoms. So.

[B]

Yeah, that's, that's, that's, that's for sure. Yeah. Yeah, I, I can't remember the dosage. Okay. But even, even the stuff they've done around like aloe vera juice with like thyroid. Okay.

[A]

Yeah, that's what I said. That's only like 30 mil or so, isn't it?

[B]

Yeah, 30, 40 mil, something like that. Okay. Doing that twice a day. I think it was, wasn't it? Yeah.

[A]

30 mil once a day. I have to go double check.

[B]

Just once a. I thought it might have been twice a day, but anyway, it was a low dose. Okay. Low intervention.

[A]

Low dose hibiscus tea. That's another one for blood pressure.

[B]

Yeah. Blood flow. Okay. Circulation. That's sort of based on like two to three cups, isn't it?

[A]

Yeah, yeah, that's what I would normally say. Two to three.

[B]

I mean, it's doable. You can do that. I don't know if you literally go do that every day.

[A]

Well, you know, with something like tea, I think it's pretty easy. I just get clients to make up a stack at night, cool it, and then just basically have that instead of water during the day as iced tea.

[B]

Yeah. So, yeah, I mean, I, I feel like we could probably just keep on going with like all.

[A]

I think, I think we've probably made a point, haven't we? I think our overarching point is liquids. Liquid interventions come back next week for our patented liquid diet, the Jake and Dave liquid diet.

[B]

You're just gonna have supplements and liquids. We're joking. We're joking.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Okay. No, I look right towards the back end there. Okay. You could clearly say, I mean, food is medicine. Yeah. Okay. Food is medicine. Okay. But I guess that's not our. My pushback. I guess you might push back on this a little bit as well. Yeah. Okay. It's just to sit there and just not give context, not give nuance. Okay. Not let people actually understand because. Yeah. Once again. Okay. If someone's walking away and go, well, I'm having tart cherry and I'm just having like, because it's pretty expensive and I'm just going to have like this amount. I'm just going to do that and that's really going to sort out my sleep. It's not going to sort out your sleep. Yeah. Okay. Now I'm not saying don't do that. I'm not saying there's zero benefit there. Okay. But are you really going to notice, you know, a significant shift. Okay. In your Sleeping patterns, probably unlikely. Okay. If you're not using things that are a little bit more bang for your buck. Yeah. Okay. Maybe if your sleep's not that bad

[A]

and you do a bit of tactic supportive. Sure.

[B]

Yeah, exactly.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Okay. So.

[A]

And you know, I sort of mentioned kiwi fruit in, in passing before. You know, the data on kiwi fruit for helping you sleep is not bad. You know, Two kiwi fruit.

[B]

Two kiwi fruit. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

And same. Yeah.

[B]

And also there's stuff around like two kiwi fruit, like in men.

[A]

Constipation.

[B]

The constipation stuff you got. But then around neutrophils.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Immune function. Yeah, yeah. What did it do? Reduce like cold frequency or something?

[B]

I just know it in regards to like actually because obviously improved aspects around vitamin C status. Yeah, okay. Obviously your nutrival function is dependent on vitamin C. Okay. So they obviously noticed the improvements around your neutrophils, okay. Which is your innate immune system, basically. I think there was two kiwi fruit, okay. And that was in men between 18 and 30. Okay. And then even in regards to that, it goes to stuff around like you mentioned chocolate, okay. And that was like 90% linked.

[A]

Yeah, guys, so I just saw a new study on chocolate today. It was released last week. 90. Do you remember when you sent me that study on smelling coffee? So in this study they had people smell chocolate. They smelled 90 dark chocolate and then they did 80 of the 10 rep max on a leg extension.

[B]

Did their, did their arousal levels go up?

[A]

Well, the main thing.

[B]

I'm joking about that by the way, obviously for most people, okay, like chocolate's

[A]

like the, well, so the rate of perceived exertion didn't, didn't change. Right. But their appetite, their, their hunger levels went down after smelling the dark chocolate. Okay. And they got. So what they did, they did so 80 attended max. And then they would wait three and a half minutes and they, they just kept going to failure until they couldn't complete 10 repetitions. And compared to control those who are smelling the dark chocolate, they got 17 additional repetitions out and whole additional set just from smelling the dark chocolate.

[B]

So you're saying that it, do you say that it actually suppressed the appetite? To a certain extent.

[A]

Their hunger levels were lower. So this is done after.

[B]

So you're saying instead of like using like glucomate peptide 1 receptors, okay, people should just be walking, walking around, smelling

[A]

a bit of chocolate, sniffing dark chocolate. It maybe we can make up a,

[B]

like a little, you know, a little mask smelling devices.

[A]

We'll sell masks, Dave.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, it goes under just like little tubes that go up your nostrils.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

They let out a bit of a scent of chocolate.

[A]

You can choose different scents. You can choose coffee, you can choose dark chocolate. Okay. Clearly we have. We've exhausted what we've got to talk about and we've descended into madness. So that is it for the episode. Food? Is it medicine? You can decide. Thank you for joining us and we'll be back soon enough, Thanks.