Tom Pelphrey Talks Kaley Cuoco & His Acting Journey + Debbie Gibson on Early Age Fame & Meeting Her Musical Heroes

Summary

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Adam Carolla Show – Episode Summary

"Tom Pelphrey Talks Kaley Cuoco & His Acting Journey + Debbie Gibson on Early Age Fame & Meeting Her Musical Heroes"
Date: September 2, 2025
Podcast: Adam Carolla Show
Host: Adam Carolla
Guests: Tom Pelphrey, Debbie Gibson

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Main Theme & Purpose

This episode features in-depth, candid conversations with actor Tom Pelphrey and pop star Debbie Gibson. Adam Carolla explores Tom’s unconventional acting journey—from soap operas to prestige TV—his relationship with Kaley Cuoco, and the realities of modern Hollywood. Later, Debbie Gibson joins in for a vivid discussion about experiencing massive fame as a teenager, the impact of early success, navigating industry pressures, and memorable interactions with musical legends.

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Tom Pelphrey: Acting as Boot Camp, New Roles, and Life With Kaley Cuoco

[00:00–14:55] Early Career and the Boot Camp of Soaps

• Tom’s Origin ([02:31])
  • Started acting right out of school on "Guiding Light," which was then the longest-running TV show.
  • “I ended it.” (on ‘Guiding Light’ cancellation) – Tom Pelphrey [02:41]
  • Shares that soaps began as radio in 1937, later moving to TV.
• Typecasting & Talent ([03:07])
  • Adam debates whether actors really get stuck by early roles, using examples from pop culture.
  • “Maybe the Brady kids weren’t that talented is what I’m saying.” – Adam [03:27]
  • Tom counters: great and bad actors exist everywhere.
• Soaps as Boot Camp ([05:16])
  • Details the grueling nature: “You’re doing 55 pages a day…5 days a week, 51 weeks a year.” – Tom [05:16]
  • Adam compares it to “comedy traffic school”—a test of endurance.
  • Both agree soap operas force actors to learn quickly and be adaptable.

[06:12–14:10] Growth, Platforms, and the Changing Industry

• Skill Development
  • Tom quotes Robert Duvall: “It takes 25 years to be an actor.”
  • Both discuss how, over time, like athletes, actors gain technique and confidence, even as youthful energy fades.
  • “You feel like an athlete who’s lost a step but picked up a bunch of technique.” – Adam [07:14]
• Modern Hollywood & Anonymity
  • Tom observes the tradeoff between more opportunities and the risk of getting lost amidst countless projects.
  • Adam laments a loss of shared cultural events and references: “I knew the Love Boat, I knew Fantasy Island… Now? Too many shows.” [09:27]

[14:10–23:22] Relationships, Sitcoms, and Technology

• On Dating Kaley Cuoco
  • “I think it’s badass. I think it’s amazing.” – Tom, on Kaley’s success [13:25]
  • Discusses supporting one another, mutual respect, and the joys of a partner in the same field.
  • Dispels stereotypes about men threatened by successful women.
• Sitcoms Past & Present
  • Adam: “Big Bang Theory…like the last of the sitcom as we know it.” [14:10]
  • Tom notes it was one of the last multi-cam, live-audience network shows before streaming upended models.
• Modern On-Demand Culture ([17:52])
  • Adam: “The kid who could watch [the Grinch] anytime, I don’t think he enjoys it as much as I did.”
  • Tom agrees: the magic of ‘events’ is lost.
  • Discussion about over-abundance and how infinite choices paradoxically lower satisfaction.

[23:22–44:07] Mental Health, Focus, and the Value of Unplugging

• Mental Wellness in Today’s World
  • Adam suggests returning to hands-on, tactile experiences: “Just go build a treehouse. Go get your kid and go build a treehouse.” [18:37]
  • Tom reframes: “Find what’s meaningful to you and do more of it.”
  • Emphasis on self-care by disconnecting from technology and finding meaningful ‘flow.’
  • “Phones…optimized to grab our attention—there’s a war for people’s attention.” – Tom [20:51]
  • Adam advocates small tricks (turning off phone at night) and calls out the illusion of constant ‘readiness’ for emergencies.
  • They touch on generational anxieties, death in the family, and how often worry is misplaced.

[25:00–44:07] Family, Sports, and Growing Up

• Family and Support
  • Tom’s father, a traveling salesman, and mother, a secretary/bookkeeper. Solidly middle class.
  • Family was always supportive of his acting from a young age.
  • Adam and Tom compare childhoods, noting how struggle can forge resilience and a strong work ethic.
• The Power of Sports
  • Shared joys of being on a team, camaraderie, and lessons learned from wins/losses.
  • Tom: “I played them all and I was terrible at all of them.” [26:10]
  • Adam asserts that even being bad at sports is a blessing if it guides you to your true talents.
  • Reflections on how modern youth, especially girls, benefit from team sports (e.g., girls’ volleyball).

[44:07–46:14] Craft, Persistence, and Podcasting’s Roots

• Persistence and Big Breaks
  • Both cite the importance of struggle in career development and keeping a balanced perspective once success arrives.
  • Adam compares early TV success to hitting three home runs in one MLB game: “And later you realize—no, you gotta pitch a lot of shows before you get one on.” [36:49]
  • For Adam, podcasting began as a way to maintain a relationship with his radio audience—not for money or fame.
  • “For a handful of people… it’s a little devastating. So I was like, I’ll just talk, and you can hear me if you want.” – Adam [39:28]
  • Tom lauds Adam’s intention to “stay tuned up,” keeping true to one’s values even if the process isn’t profitable at first.

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Debbie Gibson: Teenage Pop Phenomenon, Industry Pressures, and Lasting Passion

[48:51–54:23] Autobiography, Early Fame, and Family Roots

• New Book Announcement
  • “Eternally Electric” out Sept. 9—a substantial autobiography.
  • Debbie discusses the complexities of writing a memoir while key people are still living, foreshadows honest recollections.
• Coming Up as “The Original Taylor Swift”
  • Adam: “You were kind of Taylor Swift before Taylor Swift… before social media.”
  • Debbie reflects: social media may have helped her career but might have hurt her sanity.
  • “I just wanted to sing… being in the middle of music, singing, dancing…” – Debbie [53:13]

[54:23–68:45] DIY Beginnings, Grueling Touring, and Early Success

• How It All Began

  • Grew up in a musical family; dad sang bass in a barbershop quartet while in foster care.
  • Debbie was making multi-track demos with tape recorders by age 12–13, splicing tape herself.
  • “I was making my demos literally at 12, 13, 14… shopping my demos around.” – Debbie [61:12]
  • Mom took a $10,000 loan to fund a home studio.

• Grassroots Touring

  • Club tours at 16—teens, straight, and gay clubs, three shows a night, four nights a week.
  • “My Mom would always go in and collect the money up front. She’d say, ‘Kids, wait in the car… If I’m not back in 20 minutes…’” – Debbie [61:38]
  • Reminisces about “dodgy motels” and meeting backup dancers in high school.
  • “Shoe leather version” of the rise—handing demos to DJs, remixes to entice radio.
  • First breakthrough: “Only in My Dreams,” long club grind before mainstream success.

[68:45–88:54] Navigating the Industry, Burnout, and Artistic Integrity

• Explosive Success & Burnout

  • Sudden leap: from amusement parks and colleges to three sold-out nights at Radio City.
  • Discusses opening acts, pairing with lesser-known bands, and the explosion of demand.
  • Inner turmoil: Panic attacks and medication by age 19, suppression of struggles because “you’re not allowed to be overwhelmed when you’re young and famous.” [68:02]
  • “I was on Xanax, Prozac, everything by the time I was 19, really, because I was overwhelmed.” – Debbie [68:02]
  • Needed “more time, better pacing, not 20 interviews a day.” [69:01]
  • Adam notes agents/managers push for profit, not artist health: “They want to make 10% of that third show… they don’t care because they’re going to be asleep while you’re going out there for the third show.” [69:53]
  • Debbie now does fewer, more meaningful shows with meet-and-greets and better boundaries.

• Financial Wisdom & Artistic Compromise

  • Early earnings managed by her mother, but admits avoiding business details: “I was always weirded out by all things financial. I was like, I’m an artist.” [76:19]
  • She walked away from millions at Atlantic to stay true to her creative instincts.
  • “I knew who I was, even though I was sometimes going through transitions, but it was always me.” [79:22]
  • Pressure from labels to chase trends, work with hitmaker producers, and sexualize her image—felt disconnected, not authentic.
  • “They just wanted me to hit those pop bullseyes… Every time.” [79:22]
  • Adam: “There’s a strategy part to careers, and then there’s the artistry part.”
  • Debbie: “Being an organic pop artist was what I wanted… if it happened to hit those bullseyes, great.” [87:35]

[88:54–99:26] Celebrity Encounters, Humility, and Perspective

• Not Getting a ‘Big Head’
  • “I’m always the girl who’s going, ‘I could have done that better.’” [89:14]
• Meeting Idols
  • Reminisces: Michael Jackson, Whitney Houston, Elton John, Billy Joel, George Michael, Warren Beatty, Smokey Robinson.
  • “Whitney effing Houston knows my name… and is giving me respect.” – Debbie [90:29]
  • Michael Jackson told her he had seen her on TV; Elton John knew her chart position!
  • “Warren Beatty hitting on my mother… he looked at me and said, ‘Deborah, I am talking to your mother.’” – Debbie [96:53]
  • Recalls surreal moments: being at a movie night with Elizabeth Taylor, writing with Lamont Dozier.

[99:26–113:22] Sustaining a Career, Nostalgia Boom, and Motivation

• Cycles of Fame
  • Adam: “If you stick around, you’ll see people get built up and then torn down, and then built up again.”
  • Debbie: “Maybe I’m supposed to just duck out for these five years—no matter what I do, nobody’s going to care.” [104:10]
  • Discusses boy bands’ luxury of reunion comebacks; solo artists lack that.
• Staying Motivated
  • “You would do it for free anyway.” – Adam [107:15]
  • Debbie recalls her mom’s unease at that admission “while trying to cut a deal.”
  • On playing club gigs vs. theaters: “People either think you’re a cabaret act or you’re at the arena level… none of it’s the reality.” [111:50]
• Musicianship & Perception
  • Adam is surprised by Debbie’s piano skills: “I was as guilty as anyone else. You know, I’m busy. I didn’t know.”
  • Debbie: “I know what I do, and I know it’s different than what other people do… I’m happy to build something.” [110:12]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

Tom Pelphrey:

• “You’re doing 55 pages a day…hour long episode every day, five days a week, 51 weeks a year.” [05:16]
• “It takes 25 years to be an actor.” [06:54]
• “Find the thing that you do where you lose time and do more of it.” [19:17]
• “Phones, they’re optimized to grab our attention, and there’s a war for people’s attention in a culture where none of us have been taught…how to control it.” [20:51]
• “If you just force yourself to lock [your phone] in the drawer for the day, I think you have an amazing day that surprises you.” [21:18]
• “Where do you get that other than playing sports?…it’s like being part of a team.” [27:09]

Debbie Gibson:

• “I just wanted to do it (music). I always said if I wasn’t doing it at the level I ended up doing it…I just love doing it.” [53:53]
• “My mom would always go in and collect the money up front…‘Kids, wait in the car. If I’m not back in 20 minutes…’” [61:38]
• “I was splicing the tape myself.” [61:12]
• “I was on Xanax, Prozac, everything by the time I was 19…because I was overwhelmed.” [68:02]
• “Atlantic [Records]…wanted me to hit those pop bullseyes. Every time.” [79:22]
• “I just learned that like…being an organic pop artist was what I wanted.” [87:35]
• “Whitney effing Houston knows my name…is giving me respect.” [90:29]
• “Warren [Beatty]…looked at me and said, ‘Deborah, I am talking to your mother!’” [96:53]

Adam Carolla:

• “I always tell everyone, just go build a treehouse…you’ll be sane the whole time you’re building that treehouse.” [18:37]
• “I spent a lot of time trying to survive, so I wasn’t exactly nurturing my dreams of comedy and creativity…” [33:20]
• “Persistence—it’s like getting to the major leagues, hitting three home runs, then later finding out it’s usually much harder.” [36:49]
• “There’s a strategy part to careers, and then there’s the artistry part.” [83:31]
• “You have to have a lot of success in order to be torn down.” [106:14]

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Tom Pelphrey interview start – [01:57]
• Soap opera acting as “boot camp” – [05:16]
• On acting skill, time, and learning – [06:54]
• Growth, fame, and modern TV culture – [09:27]
• Kaley Cuoco relationship and sitcom culture – [13:01], [14:10]
• Media on-demand and nostalgia – [17:52]
• Mental health, disconnecting from tech, “building a treehouse” – [18:37]
• Sports, family, & developing work ethic – [25:00–44:07]
• Podcasting roots and intention – [38:27]
• Pelphrey exit, Debbie Gibson intro – [48:50]
• Debbie’s early musical drive & home studio DIY – [52:14–61:12]
• Club tour & breakthrough – [61:38]
• Arena shows, burnout, and industry grind – [68:02]
• Pressure to change style, business missteps – [79:22]
• Pop bullseye vs. artistry; walking away from Atlantic – [83:31–87:35]
• Celebrity encounters (Michael Jackson, Whitney Houston, etc.) – [89:43–99:26]
• Longevity, nostalgia, and career cycles – [101:58–107:15]
• Musicianship, audience perceptions, and motivation – [110:12–113:22]

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Flow, Tone, and Final Thoughts

This episode is deeply conversational, candid, and often humorous, with Adam’s trademark self-deprecation, analogies, and directness. Both Tom and Debbie speak with humility and warmth—Tom about the jagged, humbling process of becoming a real actor, Debbie about what it’s really like to ‘peak’ at 16 and keep going amid industry pressures and public scrutiny. Both share gratitude for their careers, value personal growth, and extol the virtues of persistence, authenticity, and doing what you love—regardless of the venue size or audience.

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For more:

• Tom Pelphrey stars in Task, premiering September 7 on HBO.
• Debbie Gibson’s autobiography Eternally Electric is out September 9. Her single “Legendary” is now released.
• Adam Carolla live dates and more at AdamCarolla.com

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Transcript

[Adam Carolla]

Well, in this episode, actor Tom Pelfrey comes in. Very good, dude. Singer Debbie Gibson. That's right. She's back. We'll talk to her. We'll do that right after this.

[Commercial Announcer]

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[Debbie Gibson]

I'm a lawyer. Like the old TV show Fire Country.

[Commercial Announcer]

Elsbeth.

[Debbie Gibson]

I do love a mystery.

[Commercial Announcer]

NCIS Origins, Watson and ghosts.

[Debbie Gibson]

What the hell?

[Adam Carolla]

This is the most amazing sight I've never seen.

[Commercial Announcer]

All for free. The CBS shows you love this month only on Pluto tv. Stream now. Pain Never.

[Debbie Gibson]

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[Commercial Announcer]

From Corolla One Studios in Glendale, California. This is the Adam Corolla Show. Adam's guest today, actor Tom Pilfrey and pop star Debbie Gibson. And now someone's killing showgirls and he wants to know why.

[Adam Carolla]

Adam Carolla. Yeah. Get it on. Got to get it on. Joyce McGoman. Get it on and welcome to the show. Tom Pelfrey is here, actor and beyond new show which is coming out September 7th on HBO. Task also has Mark Ruffalo in it as well. And we'll talk about that. We'll talk about the journey for you start is this. Is soap soap operas where it starts or is Broadway where it starts? Or where's it. How's it start? Yeah.

[Tom Pelphrey]

Soaps. I came out of school, went right on a soap. Guiding Light in New York at the time was the longest running TV show in history.

[Adam Carolla]

Is it still on?

[Tom Pelphrey]

No, I ended it.

[Adam Carolla]

Is it like, was it like 53 seasons or something? Insane.

[Tom Pelphrey]

It was something like that because it actually started as a radio show in 1937.

[Adam Carolla]

Wow.

[Tom Pelphrey]

Yeah. And then when, obviously when it could become a television show, it did. And then I Was on it for a few years. And a few years after I left, it ended in like 2009.

[Adam Carolla]

You know, I think maybe we make too much about, well, this guy was on a soap or this guy was on this famous sitcom and then he got typecast and then he couldn't get work because he was that guy. Like, you know, Gilligan was Gilligan of Gilligan's Island. That's all they wanted to play. But then there are plenty of people, you know, Johnny Depp was on 21 Jump street then he just started making movies. Like he could do it. Like maybe the Brady kids weren't that talented is what I'm saying. Like, I know Eve Plum. I don't think she's got enough horsepower to get out there and lead a movie is what I'm saying.

[Tom Pelphrey]

There's, there's, there's bad acting everywhere, you know, in films and television, on stage and in soaps. And there's also great actors everywhere.

[Adam Carolla]

Well, soaps to me are like, it means you're good looking and maybe you can act. At least we know you're good looking enough to act and then we see if you can act. Yeah. So you. And I also think of it kind of weirdly. Like I used to do comedy traffic school. I guess I have to explain it to people. They used to have to have traffic school. In lieu of getting a ticket or it wouldn't end up on your registration or whatever it is, your record, you could go to eight hours of traffic school.

[Tom Pelphrey]

I've been there.

[Adam Carolla]

And they had comedy traffic school, which is taught by comedian. So it makes the eight hours go seem like seven and a half hours or something like that. But it costs like $5 extra. But my whole point is, is I thought to myself as a young performer, I thought, hey man, if I can do eight hours on my feet in front of like a hostile crowd, then I can do anything. And I didn't look at it as not doing comedy. I looked at it as a harder form of comedy. Yeah. And I always thought soap operas were like acting. Like moving lots of dialogue to mow through lots of pages to remember. Like a kind of a boot camp for acting. Not non acting, like, like boot camp acting 100%.

[Tom Pelphrey]

I studied for theater, high school, college. I'd never even been in front of a camera. And you're doing 55 pages a day, really? Just as an example. Yeah. Like when we're filming tasks, we're doing like five or six pages a day on a soap. You film 55 pages a day. There's a new hour long episode every day, five days a week, 51 weeks a year. So the only week we had off was between Christmas and. And New Year's.

[Adam Carolla]

Right. So it's like it's boot camp for acting.

[Tom Pelphrey]

You're putting in time.

[Adam Carolla]

Right. And then you go from there into another example. Kurt Warner, you like football, right?

[Tom Pelphrey]

Love football.

[Adam Carolla]

Me too. Kurt Warner for the Rams Greatest show on turf and all that stuff. He played arena ball and he did well in arena ball. And then they give him a shot for the Rams and next thing you know, he wins the Super Bowl. But he said the game slowed down when he got to the NFL. Yeah, because the arena ball was faster.

[Tom Pelphrey]

Right.

[Adam Carolla]

His field was smaller and there was just more coming at him at a faster period. Faster clip because it was smaller.

[Tom Pelphrey]

Yeah.

[Adam Carolla]

And in a weird way, that's kind of soap opera to making shows for HBO. Right. Like, it slows down. You're doing five pages versus 55.

[Tom Pelphrey]

I mean, it slows down eventually. I don't know if that was about going from soap to something else. I think it was just time spent doing the thing, you know? Like, I remember when I was in high school, a great teacher, Steve Kazakhoff, and he told us this quote from like, I think it was like Robert Duvall or something. And Duvall said, it takes 25 years to be an actor. And I remember thinking it like 15.

[Adam Carolla]

Like, right.

[Tom Pelphrey]

Jeez, like, no way, I'm great now, you know? But then, sure enough, like about 25 years of doing it, I was like, oh, now I feel like there's things that are happening that I'm not having to consciously will into existence. Like, there is something to what he said.

[Adam Carolla]

No, I agree. I think same way with comedy to a large extent, in that it's a weird sport, in that you go, well, I'm funnier now than I was when I was 45. Which seems kind of little weird and counterintuitive, but you do quietly and invisibly imbibe things. I don't even know if you learn them. They just kind of penetrate your skin and you use them. And it's kind of a thing where in a weird way, you feel like an athlete who's lost a step but picked up a bunch of technique.

[Tom Pelphrey]

100%. We were talking about football. Like, you see that with the quarterbacks, where their mind is working so much faster and they could diagnose the defense quicker and everything is slowed down. But then physically you're like, where's that sweet spot where you can still whip the ball.

[Adam Carolla]

So you wanted to act from the jump street. Pardon the pun again. So you knew what you wanted to do in high school?

[Tom Pelphrey]

When I met my high school teacher, yeah. Yeah.

[Adam Carolla]

And it wasn't a thing where you were discovered later on in life bartending or something. You went out of high school, which was where?

[Tom Pelphrey]

Howell High School in New Jersey. And it's a public high school. It's the high school I would have gone to anyway. But it turned out that they had a performing arts magnet program that I ended up auditioning for and getting into. But that was just. It was gonna be my high school regardless.

[Adam Carolla]

And you then. So that was serendipitous. And then you go to New York and it's soap opera. How long?

[Tom Pelphrey]

Go to Rutgers, get my BFA there. They have a conservatory called Mason Gross. I went there partially because Kazakhov, my high school teacher, went there and had a great, you know, education there. Going to soaps in like 2004 when I leave college in New York City for two and a half years and then, you know, kind of like eight or nine years of struggling and, and trying to figure it out and jobs here and there and. Yeah.

[Adam Carolla]

Is it a good time? There's so much going on. I mean, there's so many platforms, there's so many projects, which is good, but it also means you can get lost in like a. Just a sea of projects and platforms. And you know, it's not like when I was in junior high, I knew everyone who was on tv. I really do. I think you couldn't be on TV and not have me know you were on tv. There were three networks. I knew the Love Boat, I knew Dantana. I knew Fantasy Island. I knew the Duke boys. I knew everyone in the Dukes of Hazzard world. Like, I don't know that you could have been on TV and not had like a 13 year old Adam Carollin know who you were.

[Tom Pelphrey]

Yeah.

[Adam Carolla]

Which is weird because it must have been bizarre. It was bizarre for them because they weren't, you know, that was like Katherine Bach and she was Daisy Duke and she looked good in cut off shorts. But she probably wasn't a great actress. But everyone knew who she was everywhere she went. More so than, you know, probably more so than whomever. The biggest actors of Today, Robert Downey Jr. Could walk through a mall and get stopped less than. The guy played Cooter from Dukes of Hazzard in 1979.

[Tom Pelphrey]

That's definitely possible.

[Adam Carolla]

Yeah.

[Tom Pelphrey]

No, I know.

[Adam Carolla]

And now it's like there's so Many shows and so many platforms and I don't know if that's good or not. Like, do you like. I mean, it gives a little anonymity.

[Tom Pelphrey]

Oh, yeah, yeah. No, I mean, I love what I get to do and I love that I get to make a living doing what I love. And if I could, you know, the better you, you do it and the more luck you run into in terms of like the thing you do. Being successful is probably going to lead to more people knowing who you are, but that's also how you're going to get access to better work. They're kind of inseparable. If you could pull them apart, sure. But yeah, I mean it's more spread out now. More people get an opportunity. But there's also more stuff that you know.

[Adam Carolla]

Do you, are you into writing? Do you want to get into creating and producing and directing and all that stuff?

[Tom Pelphrey]

Yeah, I've been writing. I've been writing mostly for myself for the last like eight years, trying to figure it out and. And this past winter I was home and just. Just got like 10 books on writing and tried to give myself a crash course and came out with one that I think is shareable. So sent it out and in the process of getting some notes and trying to make it better.

[Adam Carolla]

Ozark was a good project you're involved with, I'm guessing. I gotta admit, I never saw Ozark. Everyone loved Ozark and I took their word for it. It's kind of like my modern day Wire. I never saw the Wire. Everyone said you have to see the Wire, it's your best show. And then turned into Ozark. And everyone did the same thing with Ozark, but I haven't seen either one of them. But there's something wrong with me. But you know what? It's okay.

[Tom Pelphrey]

Ozark is awesome. Ozark also strike like a really. It walked a real tightrope of very violent, very high stakes drama. And you're laughing out loud the whole time in my opinion.

[Adam Carolla]

Yeah. At least when I've seen of it, it seems. I'll believe you on that. Caly Cuoco is fiance.

[Tom Pelphrey]

Fiance.

[Adam Carolla]

It must be nice dating someone who works. I'm always jealous when I hear that. I don't know. You tell me. I have a theory. People go, oh, guys couldn't handle it if their girl was successful or made more money than them. I go, try me, just try me. I bet I could make that adjustment. I bet I could.

[Tom Pelphrey]

Yeah, I think it's badass. I think it's amazing.

[Adam Carolla]

I do too.

[Tom Pelphrey]

Yeah.

[Adam Carolla]

The only thing, my theory is if a woman made more than the man, she would call more shots than a man gets to do. If he makes more than the woman.

[Tom Pelphrey]

Not true.

[Adam Carolla]

Not true in your situation. So that's just win, win.

[Tom Pelphrey]

No, it's. Yeah, it's amazing. I mean, she's such a badass. I have so much respect for her and look up to her, and it's great. Also, at the end of the day, be able to come home and ask somebody for advice that you like, love and trust and believe in and respect. What she's been able to do is obviously, like one in a million, you know, And.

[Adam Carolla]

Yeah. I mean, Big Bang Theory, like, almost. I don't know. The last of this. Not the last, but close to the last of the sitcom, sort of as we know it, like three or four camera audience, like, traditional. The genre they announced was dead 20 years ago, and it was able to do it. I mean, Modern Family was like single cam and not live audience and that kind of stuff. But I don't know, was that. I mean, I guess Two and a Half Men and then Big Bang were like the last of the multicam, live audience, like, sitcom as we knew it.

[Tom Pelphrey]

100%. I think they were the last ones. Yeah. And everything changed after that.

[Adam Carolla]

I mean, is there anything after? I mean, there's like, my buddy Kevin Hansch does the Tim Allen stuff, and that's multicam, you know, traditional. But it probably doesn't get the audience that those shows got.

[Tom Pelphrey]

Yeah, that's like what you're saying when you were a kid, you knew who everybody was on every TV show. It's like the timing of the technology also is playing a factor in this where, like, Big Bang is the last thing that was, like, on the networks, you turn on your TV and everybody has cable. Like, nobody even has cable anymore.

[Adam Carolla]

Right.

[Tom Pelphrey]

You're watching what you're watching based on whatever apps you want to pay for.

[Adam Carolla]

Whatever streamers you want to pay for. I know. It's so weird. I don't know. Tell me. All right. I had a flashback to something I thought of. It's been a long time, but I had a thought in, I think it was like, 2001. Maybe somewhere in 2000. Yeah, let's say 2000. And I was shooting a bit with Jimmy, and we're doing a man show bit. And this bit was called. I think it was Hanukkah with Goldberg. It was Goldberg the Jewish wrestler was gonna walk us through Hanukkah, and we were doing a bit, and so we had to go rent a house that looked like sort of suburbia and set it to look the living room, a dining room, and Goldberg's dressed in his underpants and spin the dreidel and do all this stuff. And so we're hanging around the house in between takes. And you know what it is? You got downtime or they're relighting or setting up or whatever. And it was just a house that a family would rent out for shoots. And I was just kind of poking around, looking around, and I went into the kids room and I saw a big rack of CDs. And one of the CDs was the Grinch who Stole Christmas. And I thought to myself, this kid can watch the Grinch that Stole Christmas in August or July if they want, or anytime if they want. And my first impulse is, oh, that's cool. And then my next impulse is, this kid's been robbed of an experience. Because when I was a kid, it came on once and there was no pause and there was no rewind. It was just on. And you might get up during commercial, but if it came back on, your sister'd be screaming, you'd have to run down the hall. It's back on. It's back, you know, and it was real. Like, I can remember being in, like, grade school going, the Grinch is Sunday. Yeah, yeah, it's going set. You know, Synchronize your watches. The Grinch is Sunday at 8:00 clock on CBS. And there was some sort of foreplay and delayed gratification that was involved with it. And I realized the kid who could watch it anytime he wants, I don't think he enjoys it as much as I did. And I don't think he even watches it.

[Tom Pelphrey]

Yeah, no, I think that's right. I think that's. To have an event, like, what cultural events do we even have anymore where everybody's watching the same thing at the same time, other than the Super Bowl.

[Adam Carolla]

I just think about what a crazy treat McDonald's used to be, or fast food. Like, it was a treat. It's not like, grubhub, bring it to your house, like, who cares? Kind of vibe, you know? And I think we're screwing ourselves a little with like, sort of instant everything. Like, you need it now. You get it now.

[Tom Pelphrey]

Yeah. I think some of the lie of having infinite choices on an infinite timeline being infinitely better for everybody is being exposed. I don't think it's true.

[Adam Carolla]

Yeah. So I know mental health is a subject you're interested in. My thoughts are sort of get back to the tactile world. Like, start hiking and listening to classical music. And like, I tell everyone, just go build a treehouse. Like, go get your kid and go build a treehouse. And they go, huh? And I go, just go down the Home Depot. Buy the wood. Go up there, you know, get your tools. Like, go build something. It'll get you sane, like, fast. And. And everyone's talking about pharmaceuticals or deprivation tanks or cold plunges or whatever. Fine. But go build a treehouse. You'll be sane the whole time you're building that treehouse or a barn or whatever. Just get out.

[Tom Pelphrey]

Yeah. I think the way I've heard it put. That makes the most sense to me is just find the thing that you do where you lose time and do more of it. Find what's meaningful to you and do more of it. Do meaningful things, things that you love to do. And if it's help somebody else, it's probably all the better.

[Adam Carolla]

Yeah. And then I also think you need to kind of trick yourself a little bit, like, shut your phone off and put it in the next room and go do some project or something. Like, don't have it on your hip the whole time, even if you have some thoughts about it or anxiety about it. But we're at the point. We're at this sort of mental point where at some point, somebody invented a treadmill. And somebody said, what do you need a treadmill for? We'll just walk to the well and walk back with the water. And they go, no, no, there's no more walking. We need to simulate this in order to burn calories. And there's gonna have to be a kind of a mental version of the treadmill, which is, you don't need it, but you should do it. And. And for me, it's like, little stuff. I don't know. Be like, go out and learn how to drive a car that has a stick shift on it. It's like, why no car? You don't need it. It's like, I know you don't need it, but just do it.

[Tom Pelphrey]

Yeah.

[Adam Carolla]

I always go, go wash your own car. They go, no, no, take it to the car wash. You have the detailer guy. Just do it yourself. You don't need to. Yes, you do. Yeah, because it keeps you sane.

[Tom Pelphrey]

Yeah. Well, there's. I mean, these phones, they're optimized to. To grab our attention, and there's a war for people's attention in a culture where none of us have been taught that, like, how to control where we direct our Attention. So it's like, often the path of least resistance is staring down at the thing in your hand. And you're right. Like if you just force yourself to lock it in the draw for the day. I think you have an amazing day that surprises you.

[Adam Carolla]

I think there's little tricks. Like, I always shut mine off at night. And then someone goes, what if there's an emergency at 4 in the morning? I go, well, first off, I'm not a paramedic. Like, I don't know what you. I can't fly a helicopter, if that's what you're talking about. There's nothing I can do but like, worry. Yeah. You know what I mean? Like, I can't really spring to action.

[Tom Pelphrey]

No, but is that.

[Adam Carolla]

It's like jokes. But isn't that interesting that people just.

[Tom Pelphrey]

They do want to know that you could at least worry with them?

[Adam Carolla]

Well, it's. It's a weird. It's a. It's a thing. Like if you have elderly parents, and I did, and they passed recently, but it's like, well, your dad's so old. What if something happens and it's like, but then what? Like, you call me. I did have my phone on. My grandfather died, you know, many years ago. I got a call like 5:30 in the morning, like, grandpa's dead, you know, And I'm like, okay, I'm going to take two days off of masturbation and then I'm going right back. No, I'm like, that's horrible now. But there's really nothing. There's nothing practical for me to do other than to be awake and sort of wring my hands with you. And my feeling is I can shut my phone and then wake up at nine in the morning and you can tell me Grandpa's dead and we'll be in the exact same place. Totally. And that's kind of the way I'd approach it.

[Tom Pelphrey]

I don't disagree.

[Adam Carolla]

And also, it's like, I remember I was telling my daughter last night and she was like, I'm surfing every day. And for like a fleeting moment, I was like, sharks, riptides, you know what I mean? Under toes, you know? And then I went, good, good. That's good. That's healthy. That's good. Get out there. Like, do that. You know, just. It is what it is. And it's a little. I think a lot of it is narcissism. I think people thinking they can control things or do things that they can't, they're just sort of out of their control.

[Tom Pelphrey]

Yeah. I wonder how much people have even thought those things through. I think a lot of those, they're like emotional responses that haven't maybe been thought through rationally.

[Adam Carolla]

Well, there's a lot. There's a lot of, like, somehow I could do something, but you can't do it because you're X amount of miles away and you're not trained in any specific discipline that could save anybody. And the point is, there's nothing you can do for Grandpa if he flatlines at 4:30 in the morning other than answer your phone and hear Grandma sobbing.

[Tom Pelphrey]

Yeah.

[Adam Carolla]

And I guess that might be something.

[Tom Pelphrey]

That might be a solidarity.

[Adam Carolla]

Yeah.

[Tom Pelphrey]

That might be comforting for Grand.

[Adam Carolla]

Yeah. I didn't like my grandma that much, but she did. She did love Grandpa. She was mean to me. I don't know. It's weird to have a mean grandmother. Were your grandparents nice?

[Tom Pelphrey]

My grandmother on my father's side passed before I was born, but my grandmother's still alive. She's amazing. And I was always obsessed with her. Still alive, Grandma Eileen. Eileen Demgard? Yep.

[Adam Carolla]

And she was good to you?

[Tom Pelphrey]

Oh, amazing. She was the best. I was obsessed with her. Still amazing.

[Adam Carolla]

And your family? Good. Like, most people who get into acting early usually have a supportive family for it because it kind of, you know, there can be a thing where it's like, dad wanted me to go into the plumbing business. And so I didn't get started until I dropped out of college and started, you know, got in an argument with my dad or whatever. But you were doing it early.

[Tom Pelphrey]

Yeah.

[Adam Carolla]

So there must have been support at.

[Tom Pelphrey]

Home or there was support. And I found it surprising. I remember having a conversation with my father when I was like 20 years old. Late one night, we were up, like, drinking beers and I was like, dad, how did you support me going to, you know, Mason Gross at Rutgers to get a BFA in acting like. And never said a word against it. And he just said. He was like, you knew what you wanted to do when you were 15. He's like, and there was no way I was going to get in the way of that. He's like, as I graduated college, I still wasn't sure what I wanted to do.

[Adam Carolla]

What'd your family do? What'd your dad do?

[Tom Pelphrey]

My dad was a salesman and he would travel when I was a kid. He would travel all over the world. And when I got a little bit older, he would travel just in the United States. But my mother is like a secretary, bookkeeper for a company.

[Adam Carolla]

So. Like, real middle class stuff.

[Tom Pelphrey]

Yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Adam Carolla]

And was it always acting or was there any thoughts about, you know, shortstop for the Yankees or something like that?

[Tom Pelphrey]

No, brother, those dreams were dispelled early. I love sports. I played them all and I was terrible at all of them. I enjoyed it, but I wasn't good.

[Adam Carolla]

I think being terrible at sports may be a blessing because I was a little bit gifted at sports and that made me think I could do it for a longer period of time than I could do it realistically. It also gives you some thoughts like, yeah, I'm going to make the big leagues or something like that, which should be dispelled. Like, someone should have went, this isn't gonna happen. You better fucking hit the bucks. But I was like, I'm gonna do this, you know, and it didn't work out. Like it, like maybe knowing that early. I mean, just like, we all know guys that can't really sing, but they think they got a country album in them. And they keep telling you every time you see them like, I got this country. And you think to yourself, this is actually not good because you think you can do something that's never gonna happen. And that's not helpful.

[Tom Pelphrey]

No, that isn't. Yeah, that isn't helpful. I mean, I think those sports is like, I play softball now with a bunch of my buddies. We play once a week and we're terrible, but it's amazing. It's one of my favorite things I do every week out in the sun and just to be able to compete. And again, I'm still me. So I haven't like suddenly gotten good at sports. But like that part of development, especially in childhood, I feel like, was such an awesome thing to be a part of as an adult, I found myself craving that feeling. Like I get it a bit at work where you feel like you're part of a team and you're working towards something bigger than yourself and everybody contributes and everybody's aiming in the same direction, but you really. I don't know where else you get that other than playing sports. Glad they have slow, slow pitch softball now.

[Adam Carolla]

Well, I think they, I think it's pretty much sports and war are like those places where you realize that you count on everyone to do their job and if they don't do their job, like there are some, probably football, maybe more so than baseball in that. Baseball was like a little more individual even though it's a team sport, but you still kind of bat alone. You kind of feel alone if you're out, out there. But football was like a real like, we're going to war kind of. Kind of vibe. And I could remember, like, really getting into it, and, you know, it was like, in a way, like, when you hear about, like, those guys, those. Let's see. Trying to think of the Hawket dance or whatever, like, they're all getting fired up to go to war. Like, that's kind of football. Like, when everyone's, like, jumping up and down and screaming, not in our house. And breaking it down and all that stuff. It's like a war. It's essentially like a war dance. And then you're going to go in there and go do battle. Like, no one's going to die, hopefully, but you're going to, like, do battle.

[Tom Pelphrey]

It's wild. I got to go to Rome for the first time ever a few months ago, and I was only there for a couple of days, but I was seeing everything and being inside the Coliseum, like, man, how do you stand inside the Coliseum and not be reminded of a football stadium, Right? You know, it's so wild. Like, this goes. This goes all the way back. Our desire to, like, get in that kind of seating arrangement and watch people compete.

[Adam Carolla]

Yeah, I agree. And you just watch. I was just watching the DOC on the Dallas Cowboys, and it's like they're going back to play their arch nemesis, San Francisco 49ers, and they got beat by the catch, you know, the year before. They want their revenge, and it's like they're. It's bloodlust, like, and they're in, like, they're. Everyone's going to war. And, yeah, if the Cowboys want to.

[Tom Pelphrey]

Go to war, they better pay Michael Parsons.

[Adam Carolla]

Not going to be much of a war. Back then, they didn't want to pay Emmett Smith. Yeah, it's a. It's an interesting. It's interesting, but I think it's an experience that you would hope that most young men would have at some point in their life. It's probably less important as a woman to have that experience, but it'd be good. It's good for women, too. But, like, a young man should experience that band of brothers kind of simulation that is football and giving yourself up for the greater good of the rest of the team. Like, you know, you're not carrying the ball, but you're running out front of the guys carrying the ball. You're trying to take somebody out. Like, that's the greatest. In a weird way, that's even a better feeling than carrying the ball sometimes. And I just think everyone should have that experience.

[Tom Pelphrey]

I think they should, too. I think it's just as important for girls. I have a daughter, she's two and a half, and she loves kicking the ball and throwing the ball and, you know, I really hope that she plays sports. So far, she seems to love it.

[Adam Carolla]

But I'll tell you where it gets good with girls volleyball. They're all talking and they're all setting each other up and the notion of, like, setting your teammate up for Spike and lots of communication, lots of, like, digging out and lots of whatever. It's real, it's palatable, man. It's big. Like, I go to my daughter's volleyball games and they're talking and they're cheering and it's really like. I think that's a good one for girls.

[Tom Pelphrey]

Yeah.

[Adam Carolla]

And it's. I mean, it's got all. It's more athletic than many sports, too, and I just think that's a good one. You're tall. Your daughter be tall. Hopefully she can play volleyball. And maybe she'll be blonde.

[Tom Pelphrey]

She'll look good so far. Blonde, yeah.

[Adam Carolla]

Yeah. What would you like her to do? Do you have any thoughts?

[Tom Pelphrey]

Oh, man, I'm just excited to see which way she moves, you know, like, it's so wild. I don't know how you feel about this, but having her, like, I always wondered about this idea that you're, like, shaping your kid or that they sort of come in and I feel like she came in as her. Like, I feel.

[Adam Carolla]

I don't. The nature is more powerful than the nurture. I think there's a part of us that likes the notion of going. You have to expose your kids to music so they appreciate, like, they're into what they're into. The way you know it is. You have boy, girl, twins or twins. I have twins, I have boy, girl, twins. They're nothing alike.

[Tom Pelphrey]

Right, right.

[Adam Carolla]

They just do what they do. They're into what they're into. But then you can go, my sister Lauren isn't into comedy. She's not into anything I'm into.

[Tom Pelphrey]

Yeah. My brother and I are so different in so many ways. Yeah. It's. The feeling I have with her is more that the nurture part of it is don't mess it up. Don't get in the way and obviously love her and keep her safe.

[Adam Carolla]

Yeah, yeah. You basically are there to keep them fed and dry and indoors when it rains and that kind of stuff, and basically not to fuck them up, essentially. And then if they can be, you know, like, if you're struggling, then the dream stuff gets kind of back Burnered, you know, like, so if you just fell off the back of a cruise ship and you're flailing in the water, you're not dreaming about your architectural home that you're gonna build one day. You're just kind of trying to survive. Of course, you know, and like, for me, I spent a lot of time trying to survive, so I wasn't exactly nurturing my dreams of comedy and creativity. I was trying to get paid and get a roommate and get a place to sleep. Me too. And keep a truck on the road, you know, like, it's real brass tacks stuff. So the dream stuff gets back burnered. Cause you're in survival mode, you know? So if you can do the survival mode stuff for your kid where they don't have to work hand to mouth every week and not know where their next paycheck's gonna come from and struggle and all that, then you can free up some of their mental space to think about what they wanna do.

[Tom Pelphrey]

100%. But that's hard too, because I would. I mean, I'll ask you, but don't you think that the fact that you had to spend that much time in survival mode is why you're so successful now?

[Adam Carolla]

Well, I definitely learned. I learned what I didn't wanna do, which is an important lesson everyone talks about, learn the stuff you want. You know, it's like, no, learn what you don't wanna do. Like, I did not wanna do what I did for a long time. So I knew what I didn't wanna do. I also got an ethic out of it because it's like, I was like, you're gonna work all day and then at night you're going to the groundless. And you didn't have enough money for insurance on your truck, but that money you have, that's extra, you're gonna give it to the Groundlings and you're gonna work out at the Groundlings. So I did learn, like, I got a good, strong, base sort of work ethic out of it. And I learned definitely what I didn't wanna do. And I don't wanna speak for you, but whatever we're doing now doesn't exactly feel like work. Because of what? Because when you're on a roof all day in the San Fern, that tends to feel more like work.

[Tom Pelphrey]

Yes.

[Adam Carolla]

You know What I mean? 100%.

[Tom Pelphrey]

No, we get to do what we love for a living now. But I do think of the things I learned when you're struggling. And part of it is also just like a proper placement of what happens when it goes well is like you're part of something else that's happening. You know what I mean? Whether it's the timing or the right show or the right people around you, or just the right moment for something to go and you don't get confused anymore about, I am self authored. I am, you know, the complete master of my own success. It's like I work as hard as I can and I take full responsibility for what I'm responsible for, but there's so much you can't control. I feel like you learn that good when you're, when you're struggling. Like, I imagine how confusing or disorienting it must be if you are just successful right from the jump.

[Adam Carolla]

Yeah, I would agree with that. And I mean, I had a little. That when I finally got onto tv, everything worked all the time. And I didn't know what it, like, I didn't know what it was like to like pitch a show and not have it get on the air or do something and not really have it work out. It always just kind of worked out at the beginning. And then later on I realized, no, you gotta pitch a lot of shows before you get one show on. And it was just a kind of a. I guess it'd be like getting to the major leagues. And the first three times you got up to bat, you had three home runs and then you went, what is everyone talking about? And why do all you losers have a.275 average? And then you get up there and you strike out three times and get a foul ball off your shin and then you get hit with a pitch and you go, oh, I get why everyone is, why this is hard. Yeah, right. And it was just luck of the draw that most people, most people may have taken those three home runs and spread them out over 11 games. I just happened to do it in the first game.

[Commercial Announcer]

Right.

[Adam Carolla]

Thought this is, there's nothing to this.

[Tom Pelphrey]

I did it in the first game and then I didn't spend any time in the cages after that because I'm just that good, you know?

[Adam Carolla]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, I wasn't like, oh, I don't. You know, I can start doing cocaine and not going to batting practice. But I was like, this is pretty easy. And then, you know, and then it just became, you know, hey, you gotta work. Like, you know, some stuff gets on, some stuff doesn't get on. You know, it's like life.

[Tom Pelphrey]

Did you. When you started to do podcasting, did you think of it as the next thing that you could do that you could be successful in. Or was it more of just like a personal. I kind of want to do this.

[Adam Carolla]

I was like. I really felt like I had been on terrestrial radio for maybe 14 or 15 years.

[Tom Pelphrey]

By the way, I used to listen to you as a kid, Loveline, all the time, you and Drew on kroc. Yeah.

[Adam Carolla]

So I was like uninterrupted on the radio. And I knew that there's a relationship that people have with people on the radio that goes a little deeper than watching television because it's a more of an intimate kind of relationship. And I experienced it myself as a guy who loved listening to talk radio. When someone would retire or go off the air or something, I'd go, I'm going. Miss hearing him every night at 8 o' clock or whatever. So I knew there was that. So when I went off the radio, I just said, look, if you need to hear me on a daily basis, I'll be over here on your computer. If you don't, that's fine and thanks for listening. But for those of us who have kind of a relationship here, I'll promise to come on every day for an hour or so and we can. You can hear and we can get back to where we were. And I only did it for that reason. I didn't really have any thoughts about monetizing or advertising or downloads or anything. I was just like, I know for a handful of people, they take it. I'm trying to figure out a way to say this without sounding pompous, but it's a little devastating for some people. Like, I'm so used to listening and it feels like a loss. So I was like. Like, I'll just talk and it'll be on your computer and you can hear me if you want, and then it won't be a separation. And that. That's the only reason I did it, really.

[Tom Pelphrey]

It's just so amazing, the intention behind that. I wonder how much it informs, how successful it became.

[Adam Carolla]

I don't know. I mean, it was definitely a. At the beginning, because bandwidth costs money. So at the beginning, and the show was popular, so it used up a lot of bandwidth. So it would cost me eight to $10,000 a month in bandwidth. But I also didn't have a job, so it was kind of a weird thing where not only is this thing costing you all this money, but there's no way to monetize it. So you don't get paid from it, but you also are only doing it because you got fired. From your radio job. So you don't have a job. So it was a. I guess as I look back on it, there was a lot of intention involved with it, because anyone else would have went, I don't have a job. I'm not working for free. And I'm certainly not going to work for ten grand a month to pay to work for free. But for me, it was a very. Felt like the right thing to do. And. And I do have this sort of theory that if you're tuned up, if you tune yourself up, like, you go, I'm gonna get my radar dish facing true north. Like, I'm gonna keep. I'm always gonna try to dial myself in and keep myself so that I'm pure in my thoughts. I know I can trust myself.

[Tom Pelphrey]

Yes.

[Adam Carolla]

Cause there'll just be times, like, when people go, I can't believe you quit that job. That's the best job in the world. And I just go, I just want. I wanted to do it. And they'd go, yeah, but what are you thinking, man? And I'd go, I don't know. But that's what I wanted to do. So then we're done. Because I feel in tune. So it's like, people go, what are you doing with this? Why don't you get another job back in radio? How come you're doing that? You're not getting paid. It's costing you money. And I would just go, I don't know. This is what I want to do.

[Tom Pelphrey]

Right. And I think that's the difference between listening to yourself and how you feel in the moment versus aiming at results. Like, you're getting the results without aiming for the results. The results are a byproduct of you doing what you feel you should be doing in the moment. And I. And I love how you say, like, I know that I have to keep myself tuned up and tuned in. Like, you understand that that can't be left to its own devices. Like, you're doing something consciously. Whatever it is for you or whatever your routine is, you know, when you're in touch with yourself and that that becomes your greatest asset. Like, that's the treehouse story from before. Like, that's the thing. Where do you know yourself? Like, are you in touch with yourself? Do you know what your true north is? And then if you know what it is, do you know how to keep orienting yourself and adjusting yourself towards it?

[Adam Carolla]

Yeah, because the wind is blowing all the time, and it's trying to knock your radar dish off, and you have to get up there and make incremental little. You have to dial it in on a weekly basis so that when decisions, I mean, it could be a relationship where you just go, I'm done with this relationship. And then someone goes, why, are they cheating on you? Or like what happened or something? And you just go, cause I feel like it's done. Or I feel like I'm done with this job. Or I feel like I'd like to do this. But if you're not tuned up, there's gonna be issues. So tune yourself up. And then once you're tuned, but you'll make decisions based on clarity, not on reaction.

[Tom Pelphrey]

Amen. Yes.

[Adam Carolla]

All right, you're getting a plug for that task is the name of the show. September 7th, HBO with Mark Ruffalo. Tom, where did the 42 minutes go? Man, that was fun. Come back anytime if you're in town.

[Tom Pelphrey]

Yeah, it was awesome. Thank you so much for having me on.

[Adam Carolla]

Debbie Gibson. Yeah, her, she's going to be on right after this. Masa Chips. Well, here's something you probably didn't know. Back in the day. Every chip we fried, they were all cooked in tallow. Now this stuff is all in this seed oil. It's junk. That's what they do. They took out the tallow and they put in the seed oil. And you guys have heard all about the seed oil, right? Then Sometime in the 90s, big companies swapped that out for cheap, highly processed seed oils and it got even worse. Now seed oils are sneaking into everything. 20% of the average American's calories come from seed oil. That's where the folks at Masa stepped in. They've made an awesome tortilla chip with zero seed oils. Just three ingredients. Organic, nixed hamalized corn, some sea salt and 100% grass fed beef tallow. And you can taste it. I eat these things all the time. So if you're tired of eating snacks loaded with seed oils, go to Masa. That's Masa. They make the real stuff with the good stuff in it. Real ingredients, real flavor, real satisfaction. Right, Dawson?

[Commercial Announcer]

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[Adam Carolla]

Simplisafe. Well, I want to talk to you about home security for a minute. For Years, I just thought it was about having an alarm that goes off once someone's already kicked in your door. But by then, it's too late. The guy's already inside the house helping himself to your TV and your Pop Tarts. That's the problem. Traditional security systems, well, they only activate when someone's inside your house. That's why I use SimpliSafe. They've flipped the whole model. Proactive instead of reactive. Here's how it works. Smart cameras powered by AI can tell the difference between a squirrel and some guy lurking in your yard. It's about stopping crime before it gets to your front door. So don't wait until after the damage is done. Get proactive protection with Simplisafe. Right, Dawson.

[Commercial Announcer]

You can get 50 off your new SimpliSafe system with professional monitoring and your first month [e-mail] Adam. Just head to simplysafe.com Adam to claim your discount. And make sure your home is safe this year. Keep your home, your family and your peace of mind protected with Simply Safe. There's no safe like Simplisafe. The Adam Carolla show presents Debbie Gibson's birthday cocktail party for August 31st. Let's see who's here. Let's welcome two Roman emperors, Caligula and Commodus. Here's Italian educator and namesake for the schools, Maria Montessori. Here's legendary comedian and actor Buddy Hackett. Actor James Coburn just walked in. Baseball hall of Fame outfit fielder Frank Robinson is here. There's Buddy Holly's drummer, Jerry Allison. Let's welcome the guy who designed all of those yes. Album covers, Roger Dean from the second incarnation of Fleetwood Mac, Bob Welch. Van Morrison is here. Hey, everybody, it's Richard Gere. Former Los Angeles prosecutor Marcia Clark just walked in from the Go logos. It's Gina Shock. The guy who killed Gianni Versace just walked in. His name is Andrew Cunanan. Chris Tucker is here from the Arizona Cardinals. It's Larry Fitzgerald and the crown prince of Saudi Arabia, Mohammed bin Salman. Debbie Gibson is on the Adam Carolla show.

[Adam Carolla]

Good to see you, Debbie.

[Debbie Gibson]

Good to see you.

[Adam Carolla]

Congratulations on a tour. Right now, a book out as well. Eternally Electric. It'll be out September 9th. As you hear this, it's substantial. I was just looking at it. It's not 210 pages. It's thick.

[Debbie Gibson]

Yeah. They try to get you to do it to a lot less than. I mean, I had a lot of trouble cutting words.

[Adam Carolla]

Oh, really?

[Debbie Gibson]

Yeah. I mean, on one hand, I was like, I feel like, people write autobiographies when they're a lot older than me, but I've been in the business for so long that I could write another two books easily.

[Adam Carolla]

I don't know. I mean, you hear these stories about Prince so and so, or Meghan Markle, and they're gonna write an autobiography at 27 or something like that. But that's probably just a money grab. There should be an autobiography, sort of minimum, like President of the United States. You have to be, like, at least 35 years old to write one, right?

[Debbie Gibson]

I mean, yeah. Listen, it's interesting to think of, like, writing an autobiography when people are not on the planet, because a lot of people write them when they're old, right? And then they're writing about people. But, like, there were people I wrote about that I. You know. And by the way, I'm not a salacious person, and I don't, you know, gratuitously throw people under the bus. However, I am candid. So I do expect, like, at least 20 people to say, hey, that didn't happen that way, or that, you know, whatever those things are that people are gonna be sensitive to. So it would be interesting to know how different it is to. My point is to write an autobiography when everybody's gone, as opposed to when everybody's still here. Except my mother. She's not here, and I write a lot about her.

[Adam Carolla]

She obviously was around long enough to see your success, because your success came so early and so often. And I was thinking about it last night. I was hearing a lot of Taylor Swift got engaged talk. And then I thought, well, you were kind of Taylor Swift before Taylor Swift. And then I thought you were that before the Internet and before social media and everything. And then I thought, is that good or is that bad? Or maybe it's neither. Maybe it just is what it is. But stuff had to get around organically back in the day.

[Debbie Gibson]

Right? Like, I think that it probably would have been worse for my sanity, better for my career to be around in the time of social media, because if you see my social media now, I love it. Like, I was a fan of show and Tell in school, so I would have. I would have loved it, you know, when I was, like, I was living a kind of isolated life on the tour bus as a teenager, and you meet your fans and you say hi to whoever's at the stage door, you know, so to connect in that way with social media would have been great. But I think there's a cost to it, especially the young girls.

[Adam Carolla]

So your Story. I'm very interested in people that start early with anything. I mean, there's comedians that started doing standup when they were 13. You know, very curious. Like, how do you know what you want to do? I guess music is a little more in you, or you could come from a musical family. But what's the whole origin story?

[Debbie Gibson]

Well, so my dad is naturally musically talented. And he was an orphan. He was technically in foster care. He's in a boy's home. And four of the boys formed a barbershop quartet. Sorry. Called the Peanuts. You haven't lived till you've heard the ten Commandments barbershop style. Sung by four teenage boys in a Catholic foster care home.

[Adam Carolla]

Wow.

[Debbie Gibson]

First, I must honor God. I know you wanted to hear it. Second, honor his name. Boom boom, Boom. My dad was the bass. And so, point is, I grew up with music in the house, and I always gravitated to the piano. Played piano by ear, and kind of just tagged along with my sisters to lessons, to auditions, talent contests. And then it became clear that I was the one that wanted it, you know, in the worst way. So I did a lot of.

[Adam Carolla]

Wanted what?

[Debbie Gibson]

I just wanted to sing, like, whether it was. It's a great question. Whether it was in the living room or in the church production of South Pacific or. I just loved singing. I loved being in the middle of music, in the middle of singing and dancing and acting and all of it. The piano was really my happiest place.

[Adam Carolla]

Yeah. I just said, loved what? Because there's a lot of people that just sort of want to be famous or they want to be on camera. They want to be known.

[Debbie Gibson]

No, that's why I said it's a great question.

[Adam Carolla]

But there's others that just want to do comedy or they want to sing or they want to work with kids, and they just want to do it.

[Debbie Gibson]

I just wanted to do it. I always said if I wasn't doing it at the level I ended up doing it. And by the way, the level I was doing it is not the. If you take, like, the venue and how fast tickets sell and whatever, that's not what's happening. You know, I sold out Madison Square Garden at 18. I'm not doing that now. But I am performing at the venues that, you know, that want to have me there, and the people show up. My people show up. And I just. I love doing it. I just love. I love it for the love of it.

[Adam Carolla]

Yeah. I mean, there's a difference between performing at a club and performing in an arena, and I think most artists prefer the club. I don't know. It's weird. It seems weird to do comedy in front of like 12,000 people. It feels like the wrong art form for 12,000 people. But a concert that seems like it would translate.

[Debbie Gibson]

It's easier to do in front of more people. So like, you know, I've done 54 below in New York, which I love and it's like a 200 person kind of cabaret style thing and I'll do like a special anniversary show there or something. But then I just was in Chile and I did an arena. It wasn't a huge arena, it was like 6,000 seats. So it's like 20,000. But it's got that big feeling and that built in energy. Makes my life so easy.

[Adam Carolla]

What are some of the countries that love you? Because I always ask singers because you never know. Weirdly like they go, oh, hungry people. All of us are hungry. And I go, there's no rhyme or reason to it, but I mean interested.

[Debbie Gibson]

So I've just been getting back into doing international though. Asia has been a through line for me. Like Singapore. Yeah, the Philippines. The Philippines. First of all, everybody in the Philippines sings. Everybody's got a great voice. It's so interesting. And like there's a huge Filipino population in Canada. I was just in Calgary and Pickering, which is outside of Toronto, did not know that. And yet like the audiences were very much Asian, primarily Filipino, I feel. But yeah, Asia is always big for me. South America, particularly Chile, the uk I haven't been back to in a while to perform. I just was over there doing a TV appearance. Australia I have not been back to in decades, but constantly see my career and you know, it's all in the book. Like I went into theater and focused hardcore on theater and continued to make indie albums. But when there was no Internet. So right for a very limited audience. So, you know, unlike. Because my manager Heather and I talk about this all the time. Unlike, you know, I have friends like Richard Marks and Belinda Carlisle and they're always in Australia and Europe and they've kept up that international touring. I didn't, I didn't have a big machine behind me, went into theater. So just kind of starting, starting again. The Canadian shows were awesome. The thing I find about going and doing international shows is cause for here. You know, I just left my friend Joey McEntire. We just did a TV thing together today and we were talking about this because both of us have been working every year, consistently year after year. So it's not like that Exciting when it's like, there's no comeback moment when you do that. But when you don't do concerts internationally for a while and you go back, they have you on that pedestal, They've kept you there. And it's great because here I never know what I'm gonna get. People are either like, oh, my God, you're such an icon, or they're like, oh, we're booking Debbie Gibson. Or they're, oh, they have me all over the place, perception wise. But there, they keep you on a star pedestal. There are fans at the airport, and there's that kind of like, mania feeling, which is super fun.

[Adam Carolla]

Yeah. So speaking of mania, you got started at. I mean, you got started very early, but Success came at 16.

[Debbie Gibson]

Yeah.

[Adam Carolla]

And how did that even come about?

[Debbie Gibson]

So, you know, I started. I started recording. First of all, I was doing TV commercials and voiceover. So when I was. I remember being in a voiceover studio going, wow, I really love this whole idea of recording. And so my dad knew a guy with a studio, and he was like, well, we'll do a demo. And I went and I did a demo of like, clang, clang, clang went the trolley. And I did a Sing the Body Electric. I did Fame songs. And I just remember thinking, if I knew what those buttons did, if I knew what those faders did, I would make this demo sound so much different. Even the Trolley Song, I wanted a more rock and roll version, pop version of the Trolley song. And so I started lining up my sister's tape recorders on the ironing board. Like the red one with the handle and like the Panasonic Radio Shackle. And I had this little Casio synthesizer. And I would play. I'd play like a. Like a beat. And then I'd like freehand play a bass line. And I played into one recorder. I'd play that back and I play another part into it. So I was trying to overdub. I was trying to record multi track record. And so my mom was like, this is ridiculous. I'm gonna go figure out a way to help get you equipment. So she got a $10,000 loan from her cousin Joe, who owned a tractor company. This is the long way around to the story. But we've got time.

[Adam Carolla]

We got time.

[Debbie Gibson]

And she went and she got this loan. And I got set up with like a Tascam 4 track and a Lynn Rackmount sequencer. And I used to splice tape for the radio DJs. You know, I used to fast Jimmy Roberts got the music. I Thought I was only in my dreams. I probably made like 500 customized radio jingles for all the jocks.

[Adam Carolla]

Right. So for my single, they do.

[Debbie Gibson]

So they'd want to play it on their show.

[Adam Carolla]

Oh, I see.

[Debbie Gibson]

I mean, all kinds of crazy things.

[Adam Carolla]

It used to be like those things that go Tom Holly in the morning and whatever. But I put it single. Yeah.

[Debbie Gibson]

I put their names into my song. But I was splicing the tape. Yes. It was shrewd. I was splicing the tape myself.

[Adam Carolla]

You would cut it with a razor blade, right?

[Debbie Gibson]

Yeah, it was like a razor blade. I remember, you know, back and forth.

[Adam Carolla]

I cut tape with Jimmy Kimmel back in the day. Like you'd have this little aluminum looking ashtray thing.

[Debbie Gibson]

Yeah. With a little bit in the middle. Miter box, essentially.

[Adam Carolla]

And then you'd use tape and it was just. For some reason, Scotch tape was the best. And it just taped it.

[Debbie Gibson]

Yeah, you tape it and you like.

[Adam Carolla]

Cut out a section of dead air or something like 5 inches long and then tape it back together. It seems so archaic.

[Debbie Gibson]

It's so archaic. It's weird. Like I'm listening to myself say this and it's no wonder I went to my prom. Cause it's weird. I was a very weird girl. Very weird high school girl. Your engineers dig it. Like you producer and your engineer.

[Adam Carolla]

Very distinct.

[Debbie Gibson]

Yeah. Cause it was like 19. Yeah, that was like 1986. In the garage, which also doubled as the laundry room. So.

[Adam Carolla]

So you would physically cut the tape and splice it.

[Debbie Gibson]

Splice it back together. Customize these. Yeah. So in asking how all this happened, but that. I jumped ahead a notch there. But I was doing my own demos in the studio and I was doing like. I was in all the unions. I was in like Actors Equity and sag, so. So I'd go in for an audition and I'd see, you know, music, anything, anything with music, and I'd give them a demo tape. I was making my Demos literally at 12, 13, 14, shopping my demos around. My mom and I would sit at the kitchen table and send them out. Got no's from Tommy Mottola and everybody. And eventually got introduced to an entertainment attorney. She kind of made that happen. She managed me. I had another manager briefly, and she took over and managed me for 25 years. But we, we just kind of did it the old fashioned way. I mean, this entertainment attorney introduced me to the dance department at Atlantic Records, which was the office with no windows, stacks of 12 inch dance singles. Every artist got like five grand to make a record. And that's why. And at the time, I was like, five grand. I mean, like, great. It's a record. And now what do we do? And they were like, well, you have to do a club tour. And my mom was like, she's 16. It was like, well, that's what we went and did. We went and played clubs all around the country. It was my mom, two gay backup dancers. One who still dances with me today. Hi, Buddy. And my mom would always go in and collect the money up front. And she'd say, kids, wait in the car. If I'm not back in 20 minutes, somebody come in after me. And on I'd go. And I would do a teen club, the straight club and a gay club. Three shows a night, four nights a week. It is very much probably like the comedy circuit. Yes.

[Adam Carolla]

Three. Yeah. I mean, you do multiple shows a night. You do a teen club, a straight club. Now, they used to have underage clubs. I don't even know if they have those anymore. Right.

[Debbie Gibson]

I don't know either. I mean, do they even have club? Like, do people go dance anywhere anymore? Cause I don't know.

[Adam Carolla]

I think it's a Latin thing out here and a gay thing. And then a gay club and a straight club.

[Debbie Gibson]

I want to go to the Latin gay club is what I want to go to.

[Adam Carolla]

And you go in there and do your set with your backup singers, which.

[Debbie Gibson]

By the way, was only 3. 3 songs, but they were the remixes. So it was like 12 minutes of shake youe Love. Everybody sing Shake your Love. I mean, and like, the dance breaks and the. Yeah, that's what we did.

[Adam Carolla]

And then off to the next club.

[Debbie Gibson]

And then off to the. Like, change in the car and off to the next club.

[Adam Carolla]

What were you getting paid approximately, per show?

[Debbie Gibson]

Like a. Maybe a couple of grand. Like, maybe.

[Adam Carolla]

And you toured around, and then that.

[Debbie Gibson]

Obviously grew as the single grew, but it was like nine months of the clubs to get Only In My Dreams off the ground.

[Adam Carolla]

And your mom was pretty dutiful, man. And you're staying at motels and stuff like that. And she's driving you, and where'd you get your backup dancers?

[Debbie Gibson]

So Buddy went to high school with me and beat me in the talent contest with his dance partner, Linda. And then I hired him for the rest of his life. It's so funny. I was just thinking back, though, to a memory. It's funny because as much as it is in this book, every day I go, oh, my God. That's not in the book. So I'm gonna tell you. That's not in the book from those club days. We were staying in such dodgy motels that Buddy and I were just talking about this the other day. Cause we were in this little hotel and this girl said to Buddy, you know, what do you do? And he was like, oh, I'm a dancer. And she said, I'm a dancer too. Oh, my back hurts from working the pole last night. And Buddy was always like, oh, oh, oh, he wasn't out yet. And I mean the two of us, we were just these kids from Long island and you know, hadn't seen very much. So.

[Adam Carolla]

So when did the. So you went out really? Just did like the shoe leather version of. I mean there's a lot of this selling. Make your tape sell em from the trunk of the car, hit the streets, you know, kind of play the clubs and then the single hits and.

[Debbie Gibson]

Yeah, well, so you shake the DJ's hands and then like the record pool guys and then you start to make a little noise on that chart and then it's like dance radio starts to play it. So like KTU, which was Hot 97 or Hot 103 back then, started to play it in the Miami stations. It builds that way, so it builds from the 12 inch. Then Atlantic said, Ooh, now we'll release a 7 inch to radio. So for as overnight as it was, there was a build.

[Adam Carolla]

Right. So when you first. When we start as a nation experiencing you. Are you 17 at this point?

[Debbie Gibson]

Yeah, yeah.

[Adam Carolla]

And it hits big and it hits hard and is it time to go out on tour at that point?

[Debbie Gibson]

So I go from the clubs to colleges and amusement parks, that kind of thing. And then it was like Radio City three nights, sold out.

[Adam Carolla]

Right.

[Debbie Gibson]

That was the jump.

[Adam Carolla]

And do they go, we're gonna pair you with this opening act or this band or who's playing what?

[Debbie Gibson]

Yeah, they did that. They did that with Atlantic acts. There was an act called Times Two that had a song that went strange but true. I think I had a thing for you. I don't know if you remember that at all.

[Adam Carolla]

I think I do remember that at all.

[Debbie Gibson]

And then you're making me remember all these things, fun things. And that's not in the book either. Judson Spence, who did give me a Beatboy, he did a remake of that song.

[Adam Carolla]

Oh, he remake. Yeah, yeah.

[Debbie Gibson]

But he was an Atlantic artist that was a little more like bohemian and not my audience at all. So I felt kind of bad because the kids didn't really get that.

[Adam Carolla]

But I think that's Dobie Gray, See if. Get lost in your ruckin'.

[Debbie Gibson]

That wasn't joke. That wasn't joke. That was Dobie Gray. That wasn't Joe Cocker.

[Adam Carolla]

No, it wasn't Joe Cocker. It was either Dobie Gray or the guy just died who had all those hits. Anyway, we'll figure it out.

[Debbie Gibson]

Oh, no.

[Adam Carolla]

So he did a remake of that.

[Debbie Gibson]

So, yeah, so that they opened and. Yeah, so they had some opening acts for me. And then same on the Electric Youth tour. And a group named Bross. Matt and Luke Goss. They're twins. British.

[Adam Carolla]

Ooh. Dobie Gray.

[Debbie Gibson]

Oh, ding, ding, ding. Very good. And I opened for them at Wembley Stadium, which was nuts.

[Adam Carolla]

Wow.

[Debbie Gibson]

Yeah, that was nuts.

[Adam Carolla]

And are you too young to be nervous or understand exactly the scope of this? And are you so in the moment or do you have time to stop and go, wembley Stadium. This is crazy.

[Debbie Gibson]

No, I'm like, you know, I was so fixated on, like, just my voice. And like, to me, like, any dressing room is a dressing room. Like, if I panned out that far, it was. I was. And I write about this a lot in the book. I was getting panic attacks. I was on Xanax, Prozac, everything by the time I was 19, really, because I was overwhelmed. And you're not allowed to be overwhelmed when you're young and famous, because then you're whining, you know, and that's where the problem comes in. It's, you know, I was always, oh, yeah, I'm fine. I'm great. I'm just a little. I'm excited. No, I'm nervous. I'm anxious. Like, you didn't really know how to. I didn't know how to articulate things at that point or how to process them.

[Adam Carolla]

What do you think you needed back then in terms of a best case scenario? Like, if someone said, that's such a good question. You really need a couple months just to hike and kind of be with nature, or something like that. Or, like, what would you have needed?

[Debbie Gibson]

That's what I was gonna say. I think I just needed more time. I just needed things paced out better, which is what I'm finally doing now. You know, it literally took me all these decades to understand that, like, walking around talking about my life in this book. I'm not doing 20 interviews a day. I'm not doing those kind of press days. I'm doing four meaningful interviews or six meaningful. Because it's at the end of the day, the variety of things I've talked about. It's like, I'VE been in a therapy session all day, you know, to a degree. And so I allow for that. But back then, it was, how much can you fit on an itinerary? And here's your life, and this is what you have to keep up with.

[Adam Carolla]

There's an inherent problem with the itinerary, which is the people that are making the itinerary aren't living the itinerary.

[Debbie Gibson]

Exactly.

[Adam Carolla]

But what they're doing is they're getting a percentage of what is earned on the itinerary.

[Debbie Gibson]

Yep.

[Adam Carolla]

And I don't really blame them, because what happens is, and this is where the burnout comes in, that the first two shows got sold out. You want to add a third show, and then they go, the third show's all profit. That's where you make the cheese. And so they want to make 10% or whatever of that third show, and they don't care because they're going to be asleep while you're going out there for the third show. So they do it and they go, you want to add the third show? And then they go. On your way back from Mississippi, I got a gig in Texas. You can stop off. It's on the way. It's easy money. And meanwhile, you're just kind of thinking you buy into it because you're like, well, I'm already there. Might as well have the third show. We're on my way back from Mississippi. We should stop at Texas and do a show. And you kind of get in on, but the next thing you know, you're burnt out. Brunt footwear. Yeah. This is good stuff. Look how handsome these boots are. They gave me a pair, actually. I'm wearing their hat right now. I was wearing it before I came in here. I got a pair of the boots. The Omen boots. That's right. And I'm here to tell you, there was no big break in Nightmare with these Omen boots. They were ready to go right out of the box. You know the drill. New boots. You got to break them in. You get blisters and band aids. I don't know, put mink oil on them or something. Not these. These things were comfortable as soon as they left the box. Most other boots require significant break in time. And the thing is, they're not just comfortable, they're built to perform waterproof safety. Toe soft toe pull on, lace up. You name it, they got it. Plus, if you wear them to work and they're not for you, send them back. No other brand does that, because no other brand is that confident. Am I right, Dawson Brunt was tired.

[Commercial Announcer]

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[Debbie Gibson]

I'm a lawyer. Like the old TV show Fire Country.

[Commercial Announcer]

Elsbeth.

[Debbie Gibson]

I do love a mystery.

[Commercial Announcer]

NCIS Origins, Watson and Ghosts.

[Debbie Gibson]

What the hell?

[Adam Carolla]

This is the most amazing sight I've never seen.

[Commercial Announcer]

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[Debbie Gibson]

No. And even now with the indie touring thing because, you know, yeah, the three in a row is kind of where it's at. But I have gotten to a place where I'm like, that's too much. And now we do meet and greets. So now you're doing a, you know, I'm doing a two hour meet and greet, a two hour, two and a half hour show. Cause that's how long my show is. And yeah, it's a big day. It's a big day. Yeah. But still I get excited. Like, I go, you know, Heather will will say, like, oh, you know, we can add this into the. And we both kind of suffer from that same disease. We're like, oh, my God, that sounds so good. Wait a minute, wait a minute. Let's really envision doing this now. Like next week when the book comes out. I'm doing a like, fly the day of an onstage event. Fly. Fly to the next. We're doing that, but we're doing that for five days, Right? You know, I'm like, I could do anything for five days.

[Adam Carolla]

Yeah, I agree.

[Debbie Gibson]

There'll be a crash after that. Well, I mean, I guess there'll be some recovery.

[Adam Carolla]

I don't know how you approach it, but it is what you love to do. It is, it is your passion. You don't have a lot of sort of daytime sloggy stuff to juxtapose to it, which is helpful. I have, I have a lot of horrible daytime job. So I had. So I can go, well, at least it's not as bad as Roofing or something.

[Debbie Gibson]

Right, right, right, right, right, right, right.

[Adam Carolla]

There is a thing when you become successful very young, you don't have a thing where you can look back on three years working at that transmission shop during the summer. We go, God, it's not that bad. Nothing is that bad.

[Debbie Gibson]

Well, you know what's funny you bring that up because I talk in the book those financial times where you're trying to like. It's funny, I always say, like, There were times 20 years ago where if people didn't know me or there wasn't just that, like, you know, thought that they may recognize, I would have done Postmates, driven an Uber, because I love to work. I love to work. I would have done whatever to keep money coming. Like, I love now that people can do that, that they can pull the trigger on any of that at any time. And instead I was. It's a weird thing when you're, you know, you're a celebrity or an entertainer, you come from a certain place and then you're trying to keep your brand name protected, but you have to be making money and you. That's where things get kind of wonky. And that's when like, you're doing these kind of weird reality appearances and things that just. I don't. It's just a strange thing. So I look back on that time and I go, wow, this era is me doing these independent tours. It's my music, it's new music, it's the way I want to do it. It's the die hard fans that really want to be there. So, yes, it is fun. It's fun again, really fun. So I do have something to juxtapose it to. It's not the roofing, it's not the Postmates, but it's my version of that, which was kind of like the soul selling, keep paychecks rolling in time.

[Adam Carolla]

And so, so everything blows up and now you're on the road and you're playing these huge venues and you're having all this success and is the money pouring in or is it a situation where somebody got rich but you didn't? Or do you have a good deal? Do you have a good manager? Is your parents good with it?

[Debbie Gibson]

Yeah, so my mom was great with it. My mom always tried to get me to talk to and meet with the business manager. And I was always like weirded out by all things financial. I was like, I'm an artist. I just want to sing and dance and act and like, I don't even want to think about the fact that I'm making money. Like, I knew, and I knew what I was making, but I couldn't put the two things together. And I just trusted everything was being taken care of, which it was. And I walked away from millions and millions of dollars in advance money at Atlantic when I didn't want to make records their way after making records my way. And so I very quickly went from the money rolling in to the money pouring out, doing independent records and doing theater, which even the high end theater money is not pop star money. And it was an adjustment for me. And by the time you make that adjustment, you're going into the red. And my mom, too was like, she kind of needed and wanted the big office on 6th Avenue or wherever, you know, and she wanted the staff and the phones ringing and the. She didn't know how to scale it back either. So we kind of were like enabling each other a little bit on that. And so it did come crashing down at a certain point.

[Adam Carolla]

What did Atlantic want you to make versus what you wanted to make?

[Debbie Gibson]

So, you know, I had done the first two albums. I wrote everything myself. I produced and co produced a lot of the songs. I produced the two number ones. And then my third album, which I equate to, you know, kids in college. Kids go to college and they're like, who am I? What do I want to be, like, experimenting with, you know, my style. And. And so that album was. I think it was eight songs on one side and eight on the other, but there was like an upbeat side and a ballad side. But style wise, it was all over the place. And I had a blast doing it. Like we. At that point, my mom and I had bought this big house together, and I had like, I want to mic the drums in the living room at the High Ceilings and just, you know, see what I can write to that. And I was doing all of that. And funny enough, that song called Lead Them Home My Dreams is like a fan favorite. Diehards are like, I love Lead Them Home My dreams. So anyway, so I was doing that and that album, and I also wrote with Lamont Dozier on that album and had a hit with the song Anything Is Possible, which was a title track, and Atlantic, because that album sold a half a million and not 4 million, they went into panic mode and they were like, all right, well, you know, there's a chapter in the book called Pop Bullseye Girl. I just thought I was just being an artist, but they just, they wanted me to hit those pop bullseyes. And every time, which, like, Madonna managed to do that in every era, every decade. I was not. That wasn't my forte. Like, I was not a strategist. I couldn't. I wasn't like, let me find the producer that's gonna help me get that hit and all that. I just wanted to write my music and do it my way.

[Adam Carolla]

Right.

[Debbie Gibson]

So the next album, I wrote a bunch of. Yes, I'm putting it out. Dangerous to that.

[Adam Carolla]

No, I listen. Dr. Drew does that.

[Debbie Gibson]

It's animated.

[Adam Carolla]

He knocks your. No, knock that glass over there.

[Debbie Gibson]

Oh, God. Yes. I'm an adrenaline girl.

[Adam Carolla]

Yeah.

[Debbie Gibson]

Oh, wait. So they. So I turned in what I thought was the album. I did a few songs with Phil Ramone. Cause I'm a huge Billy Joel fan.

[Adam Carolla]

This is a fourth album.

[Debbie Gibson]

This is a fourth album. And there were songs on there that were very much like Whitney's. How Will I Know? They were like Wilson Phillips y melodic pop. Very much me and very much in one lane. And felt like, ding, ding, ding. These songs are congruent and all the things. And it was what was happening in music. But they went into the male mindset of, you know, the record executives going, we need to put you in a little black dress and heels. We need to get you with Babyface, Prince, Arif Martin, like, all the hit makers of the time. But I was like, but that's everybody's album right now. That's Martika's album. That's Sheena Easton's album. So, like, we're just taking Lost in youn Eyes, which was a number one, which I wrote on my piano after. Again, it's like taking Taylor Swift and going, taylor, we're gonna make you into this thing. And I knew who I was, even though I was sometimes going through transitions, but it was always me. And so they put me with Carl Sturkin and Evan Rogers, who did. They did Soldier of Love for Donny Osmond. And if you remember, Donny Osmond released that, like, no picture on the label. Like, no name. And people thought it was George Michael at the time. Cause Donnie couldn't get arrested at radio.

[Adam Carolla]

Yeah.

[Debbie Gibson]

So they released it.

[Adam Carolla]

And yeah. Yeah, it was the whole. I talked to him about that. But, yeah, it was an interesting tact.

[Debbie Gibson]

Right. And again, so now the label's going, well, let's put her with the guys. Cause this worked for Donnie the minute. To me, the minute you start going, well, this worked for this person. So let's put it on this person. It doesn't work. Even though I loved working with Carl and Evan, and then I Went into, like, my theater girl mindset. And I said, all right, I can play a role. I can, like, do things their way. My way, My way. Their way. I can stretch and. But a pop music audience knows when you're not writing that song in your bedroom or at your piano after school, they know. They know. And so like, that music now, I listen and I go, it's great. There's a song called Shock youk Mama. They're like, we want you, we want you. Doug and Ahmed said. They said, we want you to write the kind of song that would shock youk mama. Whose mama am I still gonna shock? Like, I'm not. I still can't shock anyone's mama. So. But we wrote a song called Shock, Shock your Mama and brought it in and Shock your mama Shock, shock your mama, baby. It's cute, it's kitschy, and it's fun. And we bring it in, and they go, you know, we just. We want you to put, like, one of those. Like, think about those dirty limericks. And so this is Doug Morris and Amit Erdogan. Like, the. You know, Amit's like, Ahmet was the God of music. And they start going, yeah, you know. You know, Doug. Yeah, Ahmed. Like the. I wish all the girls were like diamonds and rubies. Cause I'd be a jeweler and polish there. And right before you say boobies, you say, shock your mama.

[Adam Carolla]

Right.

[Debbie Gibson]

So they're trying to get me to write, like, a dirty limerick, which we turned into. If anyone thinks I'm moving too fast, Tell the whole world they can kiss my. Ah, shock your mama. So that's what we did with that note. Right?

[Adam Carolla]

Right.

[Debbie Gibson]

But these were, like, the directives that were coming at us. And it was, like, traumatic because I was like, this is not why I got into music. And it started feeling like surgery and not like music. And my mom and I would leave the meetings and cry and go, what do we do? And the album again, I listen to the album now, and it's a really great album. It just was disconnected to who I was at the time.

[Adam Carolla]

Yeah.

[Debbie Gibson]

And that's when we parted ways at that time. But it's what they knew how to market. But then they didn't market it. Like, it didn't work.

[Adam Carolla]

There's a strategy part to careers, and then there's sort of an artistry part to careers. And I'm not saying one is right or one is wrong, but you do see it in careers. Like, I was thinking about it the other day when I was just thinking about events like, oh, the Knicks made the playoffs. It's like, who are all these non Knick fan celebrities that are trying to sit courtside? And I'm like, well, what are they doing? And I'm thinking, well, they're not really Knicks fans because they never went to any of the games before this. But what are they doing? And the answer is they're sort of working their career. They're kind of being seen and. And they're schmoozing and they're meeting other people. And then you think to yourself, well, okay, it's a career. Like, you know, if you have a job where you sell insurance and the clients come in town, you take them out to a steak joint and they go, what are you doing? You don't even like these guys. Well, it's.

[Debbie Gibson]

And you're a vegetarian.

[Adam Carolla]

Yeah, it's my business. You know what I mean? Like, I'm doing my business. And you understand it. You go, okay, just bought those guys a steak and some martinis, because you're doing business. And I maybe should have been home with your kids and your wife or whatever, but it's business, Right, right, right, right. And there's a element of that with comedy and singing and all of show business, you know, and I get it. And then there's people that don't really want to do that part of it. And I don't know if it makes you, you know, rebels or anything. It's just like, not why you were attracted to the business.

[Debbie Gibson]

Right. I mean, I think it's like a give and take, where if they would have said, kind of given me the directive, but not micromanaged it so much. But it's also different when it's a young girl and you're telling a girl to become like, you know, sexual in lyrics before that's organically happening. That's when it. That's the line for me, for a lot of people.

[Adam Carolla]

Well, also, did you. Now, I have a theory, which is the people who are sort of of good, they kind of believe in themselves. And they go, well, I have ability. And so they go, well, I don't need to be Madonna. I'll just work because I have ability and talent. And like, you know, I may not be a household name 20 years from now, but I will work because I have ability. So, you know, when you tell the record executives, thanks, but no thanks, I'm gonna go my own way, you're kind of betting on yourself, but you're betting on your ability. And you're saying, you know what? I can do musical theater and I don't need to fill Wembley Stadium. Yeah, I guess, totally. And I don't know if that's how you felt.

[Debbie Gibson]

Totally. Or maybe someday I'll fill Wembley Stadium. But I'm gonna do it my way, on my terms. I'm gonna find my way there or my way back there. Because it's not the other way. Just doesn't work. Cause the funny thing is I was auditioning at the time for the Gypsy movie. I eventually played Gypsy Rosalie and she was a burlesque queen. And it was so perfect for me because she starts as this 12 year old tomboy and we see her morph into this burlesque queen reluctantly. And in the context of playing that role, I could do that. So I, I put that into my video for the first single from that album, Body, Mind Soul, which was my last album on Atlantic Records. But again, what I learned is I knew I was playing a role. I was like, well, I'm gonna make this like playing a role, but the audience doesn't. And you know, I wasn't Madonna playing all these roles at the time. To them, I was me. I was their high school pal. So then it was like, what is my high school friend? Why is she wearing a bustier in video suddenly? Right? Where'd that come from? And so I just learned that like, yeah, being an organic pop artist was what I wanted to be. And if it happened to hit those bullseyes and I happen to feel Wembley again, great.

[Adam Carolla]

Well, was your dad was the musical one in the family, so where was he during this equation?

[Debbie Gibson]

He was around and he was like, he's still around. And we dueted on my holiday record a couple years ago.

[Adam Carolla]

I saw the picture in the book.

[Debbie Gibson]

Yeah, he's so great. You should listen to him sing. He's got like a Pat Boone crooner voice.

[Adam Carolla]

But was he trying to guide you or tell you to follow your heart or anything? He was the musician of the family.

[Debbie Gibson]

He was like my dad slash big brother. Like, he was always like a big kid and he was really there. Like, he provided a lot of grounding for me because my mom, like, my mom was the shrewd businesswoman go getter. And my dad was like kind of shrugging and going, oh, whatever.

[Adam Carolla]

Yeah.

[Debbie Gibson]

What? She said like, okay, oh, we're going to Japan. Great. Pack your bags, everybody. Like, everything with him was so like innocent. And my mom always thought he should do something with his singing voice. And he said, and he has said this to me recently, he said, I Know myself well enough to know that I didn't want the stress of show business. He worked for TWA airlines for 40 years behind the ticket counter and crew scheduling. And he wanted to work, make a paycheck, support his family, and he was great at it. And he was the most fun dad.

[Adam Carolla]

Was there ever a point where you got too big for your britches in terms of so much success at such a young age, where it's kind of easy to look back and go, oh, God, I guess I got high on my own supply or I bought in my own hype or any of that, or do you always stay pretty grounded?

[Debbie Gibson]

I don't think so, Heather. I'm looking at my manager now. She's known me a long time. I don't think so. You know, I'm like, always, like, I'm always the girl who's going, I could have done that better. I could have. I don't usually look at, like, hey, that was, you know, no. The answer's no. I don't think so.

[Adam Carolla]

Who did you come across in those early days? Cause we saw a lot of pictures in the book of you with lots of household namey bands now.

[Debbie Gibson]

I mean, so many people. Like, I love the Michael Jackson picture I found for the book. Because what I found was the contact sheet from the pictures that, like, my PR guy was taking while Sony was taking the professional shot that they eventually got me. So it was just me and Michael in this conversation, and we blew it up. And it's a little grainy, and it's so great. But, you know, the crazy thing, I mean, Michael Jackson and Whitney and George Michael and, you know, I had the poster. The posters were still on my wall of these acts. Yes. From before I was on the radio to after I was on the radio, and then they knew me. That was the craziest part of it.

[Adam Carolla]

Yeah.

[Debbie Gibson]

Whitney Houston came on the radio the other day. And I can't remember who I was with. I said to someone, I will never forget her walking down the hall backstage. I think it was the Grammys, might have been the American Music Awards. And the hall was weirdly empty. And I was with somebody, my manager, my mom. And she just walked and she said, debbie. And it was so warm and so respectful. And I was like, whitney Effing Houston knows my name. Like, knows me and is giving me respect. Cause I was always very, very aware, I'm sure you are, too, of people who are being as nice as they have to be nice for showbiz, but not really warm and fuzzy. And, you know, going to like all the parties of for like, I always would see like the latest, you know, kind of sitcom stars or dramedy stars. They're on one season of a hit show and they're giving attitude. And I just remember at a certain point in my career thinking, like, I've seen one of you every year. Like, you can't, you may or may not be on a season two. Like, everybody needs to chill. So I always kind of, I always loved meeting people who were, you know, they say never meet your idols. I was really lucky in meeting Elton John and Billy Joel and, you know, George Michael. I had dinner with him and catering before one of his big concerts. The Westwood One radio jet flew me there.

[Adam Carolla]

Really? Yes.

[Debbie Gibson]

Westwood won Westwood One. Jerry Sherrell sr. Rest in peace.

[Adam Carolla]

I was on Westwood One for millions of years.

[Debbie Gibson]

Oh, my God.

[Adam Carolla]

Yeah. Oh, oh, oh. O'Reilly Auto Parts. Yeah. You know the jingle. Mm. They're in the business of keeping your car on the road. O'Reilly Auto Parts offers friendly, helpful service and the parts knowledge you need for all your maintenance and all your repairs. I've always used these guys. They're always local for me and very convenient. They have them all over the place in the Southland. I use them, get my race car back on the track and so forth. So whether you're a car aficionado or an auto novice, you'll find the employees at O'Reilly Auto Parts are knowledgeable, helpful, and best of all, they are friendly. Yeah, last time I went into one, the guy held the door for me when I was walking out with my products. So stop by O'Reilly Auto Parts today or visit us@o'reillyauto.com Adam that's o'reillyauto.com Adam. Adam. Homes.com Some might say homes.com is the best home shopping site. It may be homes.com's super comprehensive and transparent agent directory. Or Maybe it's at. Homes.com is the only site that always directly connects you with the listing agent who knows the home the best. Perhaps it's because homes.com has the most in depth neighborhood content of any home shopping site that's extensively researched to highlight the personality of each neighborhood. Well, I'm guessing it's all the above. Homes.com they go above and beyond to bring home shoppers the in depth info they need to find the right home right away. Homes.com that's homes.com We've done your homework. Yeah, it is. I think when people talk about maybe becoming a celebrity, I think they talk about your first big paycheck or buying your first big house, or people tell stories about, I got a Rolls Royce or something. But really the stories is when you're a civilian and these people, you find out someone knows who you are. Yeah, that's like the biggest, weirdest realization. It's not money or fame or anything. I was backstage at a K rock concert, like 94 or something. I was, like, barely in show business. And I ran into one of the guys from Guns N Roses. I can't remember which one it was. Slash maybe, or something. And he came by and he said, oh, you're Adam Corolla or something. I go, yeah. And he goes, axl thought you were going to be a lot older. And I was like, axl Rose.

[Debbie Gibson]

Who.

[Adam Carolla]

Have an Isuzu Trooper and live in a rented house in La Crescenta with three dudes, was like, what Action was, thinking about what I might look like. That is insane to me. Then those are the moments. It's not really the paycheck for a million dollars or something. It's those weird little moments.

[Debbie Gibson]

Totally. Michael Jackson was telling me in that picture that's in the book that he saw me on a TV special. And I was like, I just remember stopping dead in my tracks, thinking Michael Jackson was home in his house, watching me on tv.

[Adam Carolla]

It's a weird thing.

[Debbie Gibson]

How did that happen?

[Adam Carolla]

It is funny, though, because the conceit is somehow they don't know anything. And it's like, it would make sense that he would know who you were. To me, it would. But I know to you.

[Debbie Gibson]

And Elton John, you know, is like, elton John is such a. He loves the chart. Like, he was like, no More Rhyme is number 17 on the charts this week. And I was like, what? You know my chart position, like, right? He's that kind of connoisseur. And he was very, very into young artists. Like, he loved knowing what young artists were doing at the time. So. Yeah. One of my favorite moments, though, was Warren Beatty hitting on my mother. Cause my mother was hot and statuesque. And he looked at me and he said. Cause I was, like, trying to get a word in edgewise. And he said, deborah, I am talking to your mother.

[Adam Carolla]

Wow. I was like, oh, I'm surprised.

[Debbie Gibson]

Blender in the grass, indeed. I mean. Cause, you know, my mom was like, oh, my God. My Aunt Linda and her used to watch. Anyway, it's just. And watching her have those moments. And Smokey Robinson called the house once looking for her, too. And my cousin Monica, we're this Big. This big Italian family. Yeah. All these men were getting her number. But I remember my cousin Monica going, aunt Diane, Smokey Robinson's on the phone. Like, I just remember that he was hitting on her. Yeah, he wanted to go out with her.

[Adam Carolla]

Wow. Your mother must have been a bit of all right.

[Debbie Gibson]

She was a bit of all right. She was managing an act on Motown. And so they had met up at the offices. And then I always loved, like, the rockers, like the skid row guys. And like, Atlantic was a big rock label. And those guys always had a. I. I don't know what it was. I still like Fred. Corey's in my new video for Legendary, co produced, you know, drummer for Cinderella. He's my friend. But I always had this, like, rock guy. Respect and camaraderie, weirdly. And I don't know again, if it's like the same thing about like, just the playing. The playing music for the love of music and that kind of working your way up. I don't know what it. I don't know exactly, but I love it.

[Adam Carolla]

Well, Warren, I'm surprised didn't hit on you. Cause he like younger folk.

[Debbie Gibson]

I was wearing some big baggy sweater and it was my short hair phase, which I'll never go through again. But, yeah, no, it made sense for my mom. It was kind of right before Annette Bening. And my mom had that short auburn hair. Yeah.

[Adam Carolla]

And Smokey Robinson. I just heard it the other day. To me, greatest pop song ever is Tears of a Clown.

[Debbie Gibson]

Oh, it's so good.

[Adam Carolla]

I love it. I love the arrangement. I love the bassoon. I love the oboe. I love the whole thing. I love the lyrics. I love the bass line. I just never get tired of hearing Tears of a Clown. I just love that song. If it ever comes on, I just turn it on up.

[Debbie Gibson]

That's so great. That's a great song.

[Adam Carolla]

And he's written so many songs.

[Debbie Gibson]

I got to write with Lamont Dozier, which was crazy. We were. He and his wife were barbecuing, swimming, and had the door to the studio open. And we're just going back and forth. I mean, I've had a lot of great moments like that.

[Adam Carolla]

It's nice when you write a book. Cause you're sort of forced to chronicle them.

[Debbie Gibson]

Yeah. I mean. And there's more again. There's so many more. I remember writing. I was writing with Carol Bear Sager, who I loved. And my mom was in the other room. And then she said, you know, hey, do you want to come to this movie? We're just waiting for my friend and she's coming over and Bob. Bob the head of. Right, Carol. All of. Is it Warner or Bob Iger? I'm bad with. Bad with names. Bob Iger's a big executive. Is that him? I don't know. But anyway, she's like, we're just waiting on my friend Liz and her dog Elizabeth Taylor shows up with her Maltese sugar. And then we. And it's the screening, like, the living room screening of Unlawful Entry with Ray Liotta, who I loved.

[Adam Carolla]

Yeah, he was great.

[Debbie Gibson]

And I just was like. I was half watching the movie and just half looking around going, where am I? This is so cool. It was like everybody was a star.

[Adam Carolla]

Yeah.

[Debbie Gibson]

And, yeah, I just felt like a little girl tagging along to the whole thing.

[Adam Carolla]

Oh, we have a picture of your mom with Warren Beatty.

[Debbie Gibson]

Oh, my God. There it is.

[Adam Carolla]

There it is. There you are. There she is.

[Debbie Gibson]

Oh, my God. That was the moment.

[Adam Carolla]

Wow. Guess you got a shot with the man. I guess. It's funny, Smokey got a little bit Me too'd a couple of months ago. I know. I heard maid action. I don't know what happened to it. And by the way, more guys have been Me too than haven't been Me too'd now. So it's like, I can't keep track of all the dudes who got me, too. But where was that backstage? Where?

[Debbie Gibson]

That was at the Special Olympics. It was like. I think it was an opening ceremony in Denver, maybe Denver or Minneapolis.

[Adam Carolla]

And they needed Warren Beatty there. For what?

[Debbie Gibson]

Representing one of the States. I don't know. Everybody was like. We were. Because it was like a real kind of tight security type thing. We were all being held backstage, so to speak, for hours.

[Adam Carolla]

So it is weird how much stuff you did and you go, I don't even really know what that was or.

[Debbie Gibson]

Where I was or where I was. Yeah. There were so many. There were so many things.

[Adam Carolla]

So that is. What year do you think?

[Debbie Gibson]

90? I think 91.

[Adam Carolla]

90 or 90.

[Debbie Gibson]

Maybe 91.

[Adam Carolla]

91.

[Debbie Gibson]

Like, when did I have that haircut? 91, 92, something like that. Yeah, I was like, 21.

[Adam Carolla]

And so you get out of the gate, you have this incredible success. You're touring everything, you're doing everything. And is it in your mind, is it, I'd like to keep this going or is it. I'd like to get off this merry, go round a little and get back to other things that are interesting. Like musical theater, for instance.

[Debbie Gibson]

I mean, I went right into musical theater and I kind of went into. I went into Les Mis. Well, first of all, Les Mis was the last Broadway show I auditioned for before I said, I'm quitting musical theater and TV commercials and focusing on music. And I told the executive producer, I said, if you wanna cast me, cast me now. I'm gonna be a big pop star next year. He said that at 15.

[Adam Carolla]

Wow.

[Debbie Gibson]

And he and I are great friends now. And he was the one who put me in Les Mis when I was 21. But I went in. It was a little by default at that moment because Seattle grunge was coming in, there was a huge pop back, and I was kind of like, rather than go try to figure this out, let me go be top of my game somewhere else. All right? And I always wanted to do Les Mis and Broadway in general.

[Adam Carolla]

It's an interesting question because I've seen it. If you stick around long enough, you'll see people get built up and then torn down, and then they'll get built up again. Because there's some nostalgia. I mean, there's what's going on with all the Backstreet Boys and New Kids on the Block, and there's just tours and stuff. And in a weird way, it's like fashion. It's like, whoa, we had bell bottoms. And then everyone, no, we don't want bell bottoms. Totally. And then we made fun of people who wore bell bottoms and we wore peg leg jeans. And then some point, we got tired and we missed bell bottoms and we brought bell bottoms back. And we do that with acts a lot, unfortunately. And I was talking to Carrot Top about this. Like, it's like, oh, hey, it's Carrot Top. And then it's, oh, let's make fun of Carrot Top, everyone.

[Debbie Gibson]

Now. Everybody wants to be Carrot Top on the strip. Going on 20 years on a residency.

[Adam Carolla]

No, I get it.

[Debbie Gibson]

Yeah. But, yeah, I get it.

[Adam Carolla]

You don't. It's weird living through the tear down part. It is.

[Debbie Gibson]

You want to know what? As you're saying this, something occurs to me, and it is. If only you had a crystal ball during the years where no matter what you do, no matter how good the music is, because I even had a review that said if this album was done by anyone else, it would be a hit because the music's great. But that's in here. But because it's Debbie Gips, right? So, like, if you could have known, like, you know what? Maybe I'm supposed to just duck out for these five years, because no matter what I do, I can dance as Fast as I can, I can make the greatest music and nobody's going to care. Because that really is the truth. There was nothing that was going to. And like, I remember like I did a duet with Jordan Knight and we were playing, you know, the Cornfields, the radio, the station gigs, the whatever. Right.

[Adam Carolla]

What year is this?

[Debbie Gibson]

Sorry, what year was that? It was. I was in my 30s, mid-30s. It was like maybe 2006.

[Adam Carolla]

5.

[Debbie Gibson]

2005, something like that. And now cut to me and Joey McEntire doing a duet of Lost in youn Eyes a couple years ago. And it's, you know, two and a half million views on YouTube, which for a video for me right now is amazing. And we did the mixtape tour and we did a tv. And like you just said, people were hungry for that nostalgic moment. The right thing at the right time, the right pairing, the right song, the right. And there you go. But yeah, it would be interesting to have known. Like they just. And. But also like there is the moment where kids disown everything to do with their childhood. You know, they go to college and they're like, I don't want to like the teenage music. I was like, you know, so that happens with a lot of people. And then I have the Die Hards, High Diamond Deb Heads. They've been on the ride with me forever through all those twists and turns going, no, really, she's cool. She's still cool.

[Adam Carolla]

I mean, you have to have a lot of success in order to be torn down, you know?

[Debbie Gibson]

Right, right. That's a good point.

[Adam Carolla]

You need to achieve some altitude. Otherwise it's just like jumping off a, you know, jumping off an orange crate in 6 inches or something like that. You know, you need to have that because they don't really. For folks who sort of live in the middle, they don't really tear them down. You have to have big success, fast success and mega success. And then they want to bring you down and then there's something about pushing you back up again.

[Debbie Gibson]

Right. And you know, it's funny you mentioned the boy bands because I always say also boy bands have this built in thing where they can split up and get back together.

[Adam Carolla]

Right?

[Debbie Gibson]

And solo artists just have to kind of maintain and sustain and stay relevant and stay interesting enough. But like, there's nothing I can. There's no like party trick I can pull out like that.

[Adam Carolla]

Right.

[Debbie Gibson]

You know what I mean? So it's like I said, it's like, oh, she's still here and she's still like. So I just do what I do and hope that people, you know, the people it's meant to find, find out it.

[Adam Carolla]

Yeah, well, I mean, you would do it for free anyway.

[Debbie Gibson]

Totally.

[Adam Carolla]

Which I always try to tell people to keep in mind, you know, like, what would you do if they just left you alone?

[Debbie Gibson]

I used to say that in front of my mom to business people. She used to say, stop saying that. I'm trying to cut a deal.

[Adam Carolla]

They hate when they're trying to get money out of people. And you go, listen, I'll do it for free.

[Debbie Gibson]

Of course we'd, like, pay people to have, like, yes, I'll, you know, four wall this venue, and let's just get people in there and. And that kind of thing. And there was that at certain point, like, Donny Osmond, you mentioned him. Like, he's my buddy, too. And I feel like we're in a time right now that's different. Like, I wish it was the time that when he. Like, when he and Marie started their residency, they were like, promoters took chances and they said, let's just get people in the room. And they were able to build that way, but now they're not. It's like, you gotta start, you gotta sell right off, you know, right off the bat. It's different. It's hard ticket sales.

[Adam Carolla]

It's different. Well, it's kind of like them going, we're gonna make another Jurassic park movie. And then you go, really? We need five of these things? And they go, people have heard of it. We can count. We can figure out how much money we're gonna make in advance. Why not take a chance on this indie script? It's like, mm. We're gonna do what we know, right? And what we know is gonna pay off for us. And so that's kind of where we're living, you know, those days of the sort of. Look, KROQ radio, when I was young, out here, all the DJs got to pick their own music.

[Debbie Gibson]

Wow.

[Adam Carolla]

They didn't even have a set list or a playlist.

[Debbie Gibson]

Program director, right?

[Adam Carolla]

Like, each guy or girl would come in and do their own thing.

[Debbie Gibson]

That's fun.

[Adam Carolla]

And they got successful because. Because people loved that vibe, you know, that this guy was gonna do his music and that girl was gonna do her music, and they were playing stuff that people never heard of, you know, and they were bringing in these funky bands, you know, like Blondie or Oingo Boingo or something. Everyone's like, what is this shit? Play REO Speedwagon, you know, and they were like, No, I like this weird David Bowie stuff I found, you know, and. But it was organic, and now there's a format and a set list and whatever. And that's just the way the world ends up getting. It's always, like. Always wanted to write a book called what Happens when youn Become the Man. Cause it always starts off real, organic and real. Everyone's doing their own thing, and at some point you get a lot of success. And then when you get a lot of success, then the suits move in and they go, here's what we're doing.

[Debbie Gibson]

Right. Exactly.

[Adam Carolla]

There's no more. This old way of doing it.

[Debbie Gibson]

But, like. But, you know, my point is, I'm ha. Like, I'm always happy to build something. What you said, like, I'll do it for free. Like, I'm always happy to. Like, I don't presume people know exactly what I do on a stage, you know.

[Adam Carolla]

Right.

[Debbie Gibson]

I know what I do, and I know it's different than what other people do. And I know, you know, people dig it. So I'm like, I'm happy to, you know, be resourceful and get. And build something as opposed to waiting for that. Because what's that moment again? If you're a boy band, the moment is we're getting the band back together.

[Adam Carolla]

Yeah. No, look, everyone is guilty. I was just watching your video and watching you play the piano so beautifully, and I. I said, oh, wow, she's really good on the piano. Which, you know, I should have known. But I'm as guilty as anyone else. You know, I'm busy. I've got.

[Debbie Gibson]

I'm living my life, and I don't walk around thinking. Anybody's thinking. Like, I wonder, you know, what Deb's musical chops are these days. I am aware that nobody's sitting around thinking about it.

[Adam Carolla]

Yeah. And there's only so much bandwidth, and folks are very much. Put you in a box and they don't even know. Like, for me, my own version of that, I have to explain to people, I do stand up. They go, you do stand up. I didn't know you did stand up. Yeah, I do stand up. They think of you as that guy or this show person or whatever. And I always get it. I mean, that's how I. I just did that with you and the piano. She didn't play the piano. Wow. She's really good. I didn't know that. Because that's how we are.

[Debbie Gibson]

Yeah.

[Adam Carolla]

And if you know that going in or you're just aware of that, then you go, all Right. Well, then my job is to convince these people that I do do stand up or that I do play the piano this well, and then they'll bring someone else to the show next time.

[Debbie Gibson]

And then there'll be another person that's aware of it. Exactly. But here's a question for you and a question I ask myself. Like, when people don't know and they're like. Because we'll get a request, like, people either think, like, oh, you're a big pop act. Can you come and play? Like, play our cabaret space, like, as an. Oh, by the way. And then other people think you're at the cabaret level, and then other people think you're at the arena level, and other people think. And none of it's the reality. And you go, when do you just, like, again, kind of duck out and go, I'm gonna just wait till I'm playing shows that feel like my level of my caliber that I want to be do. Do you know what I mean? It gets. It gets confusing, which is why when I go play the Philippines, it's very clear and chilling. You know what I mean? So, like, when people have you all over the place, it's like, how do you.

[Adam Carolla]

I get.

[Debbie Gibson]

It's an interesting dilemma.

[Adam Carolla]

It may be a dilemma, but it's not a problem. And no matter what venue or what size venue you're playing or where it is, it's still a venue, it's still you, and it's still not a regular job, you know?

[Debbie Gibson]

Well, all that's true for sure.

[Adam Carolla]

And so if you keep that in mind, you get a little philosophical about it, which is you get paid to do what you would do for free and what you did do for free for a long time.

[Debbie Gibson]

Totally. Totally.

[Adam Carolla]

And then you'll never work a day in your life, as they say.

[Debbie Gibson]

Totally.

[Adam Carolla]

Eternally Electric is the name of the book. And then the tour, it's ongoing, right?

[Debbie Gibson]

Yep. Nostalgia Live, doing more shows in the fall.

[Adam Carolla]

New Stalgia Live. And the single is out Tuesday. As you hear this. So is that tomorrow?

[Debbie Gibson]

Wait, it's tonight. Tonight? Yeah. Today. Today. It's out already today.

[Adam Carolla]

Oh, sorry. That's what I was saying. Sorry. I saw Tuesday in capital letters. But today.

[Debbie Gibson]

Today. It's out today. Legendary.

[Adam Carolla]

Debbie, always great catching up with you.

[Debbie Gibson]

Thank you. So much fun.

[Adam Carolla]

So, Debbie, I want to thank Tom Pelfrey for coming in task name of his new HBO show. You can go to AdamCroll.com for all the live shows. I'm going to Charlotte. I'm going to El Paso. I'm going to Albuquerque. And until next time, it's Adam for Tom and Debbie saying Mahala, you can.

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[Debbie Gibson]

Like the old TV show Fire Country.

[Commercial Announcer]

Elsbeth I do love a mystery, NCIS Origins, Watson and ghosts.

[Debbie Gibson]

What the hell?

[Adam Carolla]

This is the most amazing sight I've never seen.

[Commercial Announcer]

All for free. The CBS shows you love this month only on Pluto tv. Stream now. Pain never. This September, CBS hits are streaming free on Pluto tv. I'm coming in hot for this month only. Stream full episodes of Matlock I'm a.

[Debbie Gibson]

Lawyer like the old TV show Fire Country.

[Commercial Announcer]

Elsbeth I do love a mystery, NCIS Origins, Watson and ghosts.

[Debbie Gibson]

What the hell?

[Adam Carolla]

This is the most amazing sight I've never seen.

[Commercial Announcer]

All for free. The CBS shows you love this month only on Pluto tv. Stream now. Pain never.