AdExchanger Talks: Measurement Real Talk with INCRMNTAL’s Maor Sadra

Podcast Information:

• Title: AdExchanger
• Host/Author: AdExchanger Talks
• Episode: Measurement Real Talk, With INCRMNTAL’s Maor Sadra
• Release Date: February 11, 2025

Introduction

In this episode of AdExchanger Talks, host Allison Schiff engages in a deep dive with Maor Sadra, CEO and co-founder of Incrementl, an innovative incrementality measurement startup. The conversation traverses the complexities of digital marketing measurement, the pitfalls of traditional attribution methods, the rising prominence of podcast advertising, and the transformative impact of AI on the advertising landscape.

Maor Sadra’s Background and Journey (00:00 - 05:14)

Allison begins by exploring Maor’s unique path to the ad tech industry.

Maor Sadra:
*"It's a bit tricky because you know this, but not too many people know that... in a past life I was a musician... I play a lot of instruments and I recorded."
(02:17)

Maor shares his diverse background, highlighting his musical talents and transition from the Israeli Defense Forces’ entertainment troupe to various roles in ad tech, including positions at Matomi and Applift. His longstanding frustration with flawed attribution methods laid the foundation for founding Incrementl in 2020, amidst the global pandemic.

The Broken State of Measurement in Digital Marketing (05:14 - 14:52)

Maor elaborates on the core mission of Incrementl: redefining how marketers measure the true value of their campaigns.

Maor Sadra:
*"We are a Yazam bazum... Incrementally is an AI powered measurement solution that measures incrementality."
(05:14)

Incrementl diverges from traditional measurement by focusing on incrementality—the true incremental value generated by marketing efforts—over superficial attribution metrics, which often credit the last interaction point without assessing its genuine impact.

Maor Sadra:
*"I want to evolve this 20 plus years mistake of counting clicks to basically measuring value."
(11:20)

He criticizes the prevalent “last click” attribution model, likening it to awarding goals in a football match without acknowledging the team effort:

Maor Sadra:
*"Attribution is like giving the credit to whoever scored the goal... but you shouldn't make your entire marketing decisions based on that."
(14:52)

Incrementality vs. Attribution: Understanding the Difference (13:26 - 21:21)

The discussion delves deeper into the distinction between incrementality and traditional attribution methods.

Maor Sadra:
*"Incrementality is all about measuring true incremental value... If you would not have received those, these hundred conversions are incremental."
(13:31)

He emphasizes that incrementality evaluates whether a conversion would have occurred without the marketing effort, providing a more accurate reflection of campaign effectiveness.

Allison and Maor also touch upon Maor’s initial plans to develop a multi-touch attribution solution, which pivoted to incrementality measurement as privacy concerns intensified.

Marketing Mix Modeling (MMM) and Its Challenges (17:12 - 21:21)

Allison introduces the topic of Marketing Mix Modeling (MMM), highlighting Maor’s critical perspective.

Maor Sadra:
*"Media mix modeling platforms have been a pain in our asses during 2022 and 2023."
(18:19)

Maor critiques contemporary MMM for being outdated and ill-suited to today’s fast-paced, data-rich marketing environments. He argues that MMM was designed for slower-moving industries and can't keep up with the dynamic nature of modern digital campaigns.

Maor Sadra:
*"MMM is not for you... MMM was built in an era where people ran on print and radio."
(18:19)

He also differentiates Incrementl’s approach from MMM, asserting that Incrementl offers a more robust and accurate measurement framework.

Navigating Business During Wartime (21:11 - 23:51)

The conversation takes a poignant turn as Maor shares his personal experiences during the conflict in Israel.

Maor Sadra:
*"It sucked. It’s also sucked in ways that I can probably not really comprehend... exact words: It did. It really does. It's. It sucks and I wish the a better tomorrow."
(22:12)

Maor discusses the challenges of maintaining business operations amidst air raid sirens and the emotional toll on his team and family. His resilience and commitment to keeping Incrementl operational during such trying times underscore his leadership qualities.

AI’s Transformative Impact on Measurement and Attribution (24:31 - 39:19)

Post-break, Allison and Maor shift focus to the role of Artificial Intelligence (AI) in reshaping measurement and attribution in advertising.

Maor Sadra:
*"True measurement should focus on incrementality... AI is using algorithms to gather enormous sets of data and create a natural learning that continuously improves."
(39:19)

Maor explains how AI enables more sophisticated modeling that transcends traditional tracking methods, offering deeper insights into consumer behavior and campaign effectiveness without relying on intrusive tracking mechanisms like cookies.

The Future of Podcast Advertising vs. CTV (28:06 - 35:49)

Allison introduces Maor’s intriguing theory that podcast advertising could surpass Connected TV (CTV) in prominence.

Maor Sadra:
*"The audience who are listening to podcasts is really the audience that advertisers are looking for... the intimacy and the impact of podcast advertising is really high."
(28:56)

He outlines several reasons for this potential shift:

1. Targeted Audience: Podcasts attract millennials and Gen Z, who are highly sought after by advertisers.
2. Intimacy and Engagement: Podcast ads foster a deeper connection with listeners.
3. Scalable Opportunities: Compared to the resource-intensive nature of CTV, podcast advertising is more accessible and scalable.

Maor Sadra:
*"Podcast is like a guy with a mic... the opportunity is significantly bigger."
(35:49)

Allison echoes Maor’s sentiments, sharing her own positive experiences with podcast listening and the transformative role of devices like AirPods in enhancing user engagement.

Honey Scandal and Attribution Frauds (36:05 - 46:35)

The dialogue shifts to the Honey scandal, where PayPal’s Honey browser extension was accused of stealing affiliate commissions.

Allison Schiff:
*"Late last year PayPal's Honey browser extension... replacing attribution tags from their affiliate links with its own tags."
(44:00)

Maor Sadra:
*"What you're doing is really bad... I think the only reason why fraud is not such a hyped out topic anymore is mainly because... we just don't have the tools anymore."
(46:33)

Maor highlights that such fraudulent practices stem from the flawed last-click attribution model, which can be easily manipulated. He underscores the importance of moving towards more reliable measurement frameworks like incrementality to prevent such abuses.

Lightning Round: Rapid-Fire Insights (47:35 - 54:27)

Allison conducts a lightning round, posing quick questions to elicit Maor’s candid responses on various industry topics.

1. MMM Tools Trustworthiness:
   Maor Sadra:
   "MMM is the rail, so you basically need to build it in house... it's just tech."
   (48:25)

2. Google’s Fingerprinting Move:
   Maor Sadra:
   "For advertisers who don't want to deal with figuring out alternatives... yes."
   (48:58)

3. Apple’s Enforcement of Fingerprinting Policy:
   Maor Sadra:
   "Maybe they'll penalize someone at some point, but I would highly doubt it."
   (49:35)

4. Effectiveness of SKAdNetwork and Private Click Measurement (PCM):
   Maor Sadra:
   "They work for some... if you're selling products that are expensive and take some thinking, then basically everything like Apple's attribution will show you is that everything is organic."
   (50:03)

5. Applovin’s Potential Acquisition of Snapchat:
   Maor Sadra:
   "I could see that, but it depends on the price... I think that's a bit better acquisition probably for an Applovin."
   (50:38)

6. Biggest Misconception about Incrementality Measurement:
   Maor Sadra:
   "People think it's complicated, but it's not. It's like one incremental pretzel."
   (51:08)

7. Impact of a TikTok Ban on Incrementality Testing:
   Maor Sadra:
   "Probably. Yes, indeed."
   (52:30)

8. Google’s Privacy Sandbox:
   Maor Sadra:
   "Google has a lot of stuff to deal with... I'm not counting of this happening anytime soon."
   (53:14)

Conclusion

Allison wraps up the episode by reflecting on the multifaceted discussion, emphasizing the need for evolving measurement practices in the face of privacy challenges and technological advancements. She hints at the continuing transformation driven by AI and the strategic shifts towards more meaningful metrics like incrementality.

Allison Schiff:
"Cookies, pretzels. I'm kind of in a snacky mood, so I'm gonna have to end the podcast so I can go grab something to eat."
(54:27)

The episode concludes with sponsorship acknowledgments, reaffirming Incrementl’s role in pioneering advanced measurement solutions.

Notable Quotes

1. Maor Sadra on Incrementality:
   "I want to evolve this 20 plus years mistake of counting clicks to basically measuring value."
   (11:20)

2. Maor Sadra on Attribution Flaws:
   "Attribution is like giving the credit to whoever scored the goal... but you shouldn't make your entire marketing decisions based on that."
   (14:52)

3. Maor Sadra on AI’s Role:
   "AI is using algorithms to gather enormous sets of data and create a natural learning that continuously improves."
   (39:19)

4. Maor Sadra on Honey Scandal:
   "What you're doing is really bad... I think the only reason why fraud is not such a hyped out topic anymore is mainly because... we just don't have the tools anymore."
   (46:33)

Timestamp References

• 00:00 – Introduction of Maor Sadra
• 02:17 – Maor’s musical background
• 05:14 – Founding of Incrementl
• 11:20 – Incrementality vs Click Counting
• 13:31 – Definition of Incrementality
• 14:52 – Attribution Analogies
• 18:19 – Challenges with MMM
• 22:12 – Business During Wartime
• 24:31 – AI’s Impact on Attribution
• 28:56 – Podcast Advertising vs CTV
• 35:49 – AirPods and Podcast Engagement
• 36:05 – Honey Scandal Introduction
• 40:00 – AI and Attribution
• 44:00 – PayPal’s Honey Controversy
• 47:35 – Lightning Round Begins
• 54:27 – Closing Remarks

Conclusion

This episode provides invaluable insights into the evolving landscape of digital marketing measurement. Maor Sadra’s expertise sheds light on the limitations of traditional attribution models and underscores the necessity for more sophisticated, incrementality-focused approaches. Additionally, his forward-thinking perspectives on AI and podcast advertising present a roadmap for future advancements in the ad tech industry.

For marketers grappling with the complexities of measurement in a privacy-centric world, this conversation offers both clarity and direction, advocating for a shift towards methods that genuinely capture the value and impact of marketing efforts.