Podcast Summary: AdExchanger Talks
Episode: “Measuring The Unmeasurable, With HyphaMetrics Founder Joanna Drews”
Host: Victoria McNally
Guest: Joanna Drews, CEO & Co-Founder, HyphaMetrics
Date: September 9, 2025
Episode Overview
This episode explores the challenges and evolution of media measurement, focusing on the growing gaps in “unmeasurables” within the advertising and media-tech ecosystem. CEO Joanna Drews shares her personal journey through market research, her work at GroupM, Axwave, and comScore, the founding of HyphaMetrics, and the company's recent landmark legal victory against Nielsen. The conversation dives into the complexities of measurement technology, what defines a “panel,” the future of unified analytics, and what it’s like to go head-to-head with industry titans.
Key Discussion Points and Insights
Personal Insights: The Fish Fan Origin Story
- Joanna's Hidden Hobby: Joanna reveals her love for the band Phish and attending their MSG New Year’s Eve shows (02:38–04:45).
- Quote: “I'm a die hard Phish fan... I've seen them 15 plus, maybe a little under 20 [times].” (03:18, Joanna Drews)
- Discusses how she got hooked on the band after her first show: “I went once... and then I just became completely hooked. Everyone’s nice at the concert. The jams that go on endlessly are so interesting. It's just good vibes.” (04:03, Joanna Drews)
Joanna’s Early Career & Measurement Obsession
- How Joanna Fell for Market Research:
- Started in advertising/PR, guided to research at Interbrand and iCrossing.
- Found measurement as the perfect bridge between creativity and evidence: “Media measurement in general is this nice bridge between the creative of what we do in our industry...and then understanding what works and what doesn’t work, and what’s valid.” (06:04, Joanna Drews)
- The Importance (and Misuse) of “Panel”:
- Joanna is frustrated by industry misuse of “panel” versus data aggregation (07:16).
- Precise definition: “It's a group of people that's been recruited in order to analyze their behaviors, and that group...is statistically reflective of a larger group of people.” (08:04)
- Explains the critical difference between a “panel” and data “footprints” (09:24): panels are curated for representativeness, while footprints are unaligned device distributions.
Transition to Measurement Vendors & Building Products
- From Agency to Vendor:
- At GroupM, grappled with the impossibility of unified cross-platform measurement (10:32–11:53).
- Joined Axwave to use audio ACR for individual-level panel measurement; drew the analogy to Shazam (12:06).
- Recruiting Panelists:
- Describes panel recruitment partners and pooling respondents: “If you, or if anyone in your household has ever taken a survey, you’re immediately put into this bucket of information that's accessible.” (12:27)
At comScore: Unifying Data
- Navigating a Turnaround:
- Joined amid comScore’s financial disclosure issues and merging digital/TV data (13:27–14:25).
- Loved comScore’s growing ability to granularly report human behavior across converging screens.
The “Unmeasurables” Era: Filling the New Measurement Gaps
- Explaining ‘Unmeasurables’:
- Quote: “What excites me is what I call the unmeasurables...all the data that hasn’t existed in the marketplace yet that we are introducing.” (15:12)
- Uses Excel sheet analogy: “As a consumer, what’s happened is we have personal devices, we have streaming devices that are shared with other people...But measurement technology hasn’t kept up.” (15:12)
- Technical Innovations:
- HyphaMetrics’ coremeter device and its UNI software measure every permutation, filling holes in the consumer journey (18:22–19:31).
Founding HyphaMetrics: Beyond Audio ACR
- Why Not Just ACR:
- Nielsen’s acquisition of Gracenote made 60%+ of relevant ACR IP off-limits, leading Joanna to seek solutions beyond ACR.
- Inventing UNI:
- Partnering with Gerardo Lopez, they explored using consumer-grade technologies and flexible algorithmic measurement.
Legal Battles: David vs Goliath with Nielsen
The Lawsuit Story
- Background:
- After Nielsen’s MRC accreditation loss in 2021, they sued HyphaMetrics for patent infringement (23:32).
- Joanna’s Reaction:
- Quote: “To be perfectly honest, I cried. I woke up...probably had over a hundred emails from different attorneys saying, we'd love to represent you. And I was like, what’s going on?” (24:58)
- How Lawsuits Impact a Startup:
- Slowed business, caused customer/investor doubt, but also built resilience (“...building a startup is like climbing Mount Everest, but having lawsuits hurled at you is like eating glass and climbing Mount Everest.” (33:05))
Case Details
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Patent Claims:
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- Use of open-source AI (YOLO software) in a lab setting—never in a household.
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- Router measurement automation—alleged infringement postdated HyphaMetrics’ POC and wasn’t ever commercially implemented.
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Quote: “The code absolutely exists within our databases, but that does not mean that we moved to use it within our panel.” (29:56)
The Trial Experience
- Jury Trial Unusualness:
- “Up until the day of trial, the judge can say that we're not moving to trial. So we were all kind of under the assumption that that would happen...” (37:16)
- Fast-Tracked Patents:
- “Our own patents we received in warp speed...between seven to nine months after filing them...because we operate in an entire white space.” (38:09)
Aftermath and Next Steps
- Vindication & Growth:
- With victory, focus is on scaling the flagship panel to 5,500+ households, iterating on methods, and serving growing client demand (44:02).
- On “Product” Critiques from Nielsen:
- Admits only 50 households are currently in the US prototype, but emphasizes rapid iteration and proof points with trials and blue-chip clients (41:24, 43:09).
Partnerships and Industry Alliances
- Panel Recruitment Programs:
- Collaborations with Samba TV and comScore. HyphaMetrics works with companies to recruit from “footprints” to ensure rigorous, representative panels and expand the dictionary of measurable behaviors (35:00–36:33).
Memorable Quotes & Moments
- On Industry Respect:
- “I have an incredible amount of respect for Nielsen and what they bring to the table. They've set a platinum standard for all of us...” (22:03)
- Startup Grit:
- “What doesn't kill you makes you stronger. Right. So that was our first lawsuit. The second time, and other times that happened, it was like, okay, we know what's happening here.” (26:49)
- Why Solve Measurement Gaps?:
- “If your datasheet is filled with holes…how do we plan our future when 75%, 50%, 25% of our behaviors are unmeasured?” (41:24)
Advice to Aspiring Measurement Innovators
- Candid Guidance:
- “I would say don't do it. I would say go for it, eyes wide open, and you’ll grow as a person no matter what. So...competition is good in our space...the only way to get ahead...is with newcomers.” (45:14)
Timestamps for Major Segments
| Segment | Timestamp | |-----------------------------------------------|:--------------:| | Joanna’s “Phish” fandom & Icebreaker | 02:38 – 04:45 | | Early career and panel definition | 05:19 – 09:03 | | Transition to measurement vendors | 10:20 – 12:59 | | comScore & digital/TV integration | 13:27 – 14:56 | | The unmeasurables: new gaps in measurement | 15:12 – 18:05 | | HyphaMetrics’ technology explained | 18:05 – 19:31 | | Leaving comScore and inventing UNI | 19:31 – 22:26 | | Lawsuit with Nielsen: emotional and founder POV| 24:49 – 27:20 | | Trial specifics and aftermath | 27:49 – 39:13 | | Business impact & partnerships | 33:05 – 36:47 | | Product status and future plans | 39:45 – 44:57 | | Advice for new entrepreneurs | 45:14 – 46:08 |
Conclusion
This episode gives a rare, candid look into the trenches of ad tech innovation and legal drama. Joanna Drews demystifies “panels,” exposes gaps in current measurement models, and describes both the thrill and agony of startup life under fire. Her journey emphasizes persistence, the value of fresh approaches to longstanding problems, and a vision for more representative, comprehensive audience measurement as media consumption grows ever more fragmented.