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Foreign. Welcome to Ad Exchanger Talks, the podcast
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devoted to examining the issues and trends
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in advertising and marketing technology that matter most to you.
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Hello and welcome to this week's episode of Ad Exchanger Talks. Upfront week is right around the corner and we're all gearing up to see the legacy TV networks compete with the digital native streamers for ad commitments that'll extend into the next broadcast year. It's no longer news that the upfronts these days center on streaming, especially ever since Amazon and Netflix entered the fray, flexing their digital native tech chops, complete with games, live streaming and user generated content. Just look at Twitch, the social live streaming platform that Amazon acquired in 2014. But streaming alone isn't enough to move the needle on TV and video ad spend. What marketers really need is ad performance and the right amount of fancy data that'll prove that performance actually happened. Performance or it didn't happen. Am I right? I'm Alyssa Boyle, senior editor at Ad Exchanger and your host for today's episode. Joining me today is Sarah Yos, head of agency partnerships at Amazon Ads. Sarah is a media and entertainment vet, having spent some time on the ad sales team at Paramount back when it was still Viacom before joining the ad sales team at Amazon, including overseeing ad sales for Twitch. So it would be the understatement of the year to say that Sarah has seen her fair share of TV upfronts and has quite a lot to say about the TV upfront market and how it's been changing. So without further ado, I'll let you hear it from the expert. All right. Hi Sarah, thanks for joining me today. Hi, thanks.
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I'm so excited to be here. Me too.
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So we have a lot to discuss about the upfront and what they tell us about how the TV land is changing. But before all that, let's start with something light, almost like advertisers wallets. After the upfront negotiations, care to give us a fun fact or something we might not know about you?
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Okay. Fun fact is that I was a creative writing and English literature major in college and went to grad school for creative writing. And I think that's kind of why I'm obsessed with content and, you know, feel such a sense of pride representing great content. And I actually went to grad school with Jenny Han, who wrote the Summer I Turn Pretty, which is my all time favorite prime series.
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Wow. Okay. I went to a. I think it was a recent Amazon upfront and I got some merch and I got a towel that, that was branded the summer I turned pretty. And it's my favorite piece of merch that I use it to go to the beach every year. Oh, yes. Fun fact for me.
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Fun fact for you. I immediately lost that towel to my 13 year old daughter. But you know, that towel, she's out there on the beaches.
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All right, you heard that here, don't have kids, guys. You get to keep your towels. All right, so. So speaking of the, the show, what are you watching right now anyway?
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Well, I just finished Jury Duty presents Corporate Retreat. It's the second series from the creators of Jury Duty. Fun fact. Somebody I went to college with in my creative writing program is the creator, one of the creators of Jury Duty. And I mean this first, the first season got me, but this second season I was blown away, obsessed. I am consuming 100% of all of the content on the Internet around it. And Anthony, the hero of Corporate Retreat, he is an incredible man. And if you haven't watched it, you must binge it. It is so heartwarming. And in a world like this one, we all need that kind of endearing, sweet, but also high concept content.
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Wow, you went to college with a lot of interesting people. I should hang out with you guys. I did.
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It all goes back to like prime too, which is just so crazy for me. But I love, I love it so much. It makes me, it makes me feel really proud to be able to know them and be somewhat connected to making their work successful.
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B
Absolutely. So speaking of some top tier ip, uh, so even before we dive into the upfronts, upfronts are all about the content, as always. So let's talk about the content a little bit more for a second. TV has always been very, you know, long form, premium, high production value content with celebrity talent. As you know better than anyone else, having been at Paramount, which was then Viacom, so so much of TV viewing now consists of like live streams, user generated content, sometimes both of those things at the same time, like say a Twitch stream. Right. So that sounds like night and day on the surface. But Sarah, what do you make, just in general, about how much TV viewing has changed over the years?
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I think, you know, my. I always kind of subscribe to the idea that consumers lead the way. They always win. Right? And consumers are telling us, especially younger generations, that they want all sorts of content. They want the glossiest, you know, highly produced, cinematic, story driven content like the Summer I Turn Pretty. But also Twitch is a great example where you're making real connections, you're forming a community. But there's something that's very, very TV like about Twitch, it's long form, it's appointment viewing. You know, these streamers are streaming on a schedule. So I don't think that it's a huge leap that the idea that a creator is creating content on a schedule with the same group of people who then become fans and a community and to themselves, you know, having ads in there is, is very similar to sort of those, you know, really important cultural moments in television. So it's expanded because technology has expanded and consumers appetites have expanded. But you know, the highest, the most engaged content. Think we'll always move brands, you know, to, to participate.
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B
Yeah, you mentioned appointment viewing and I just think I have two anecdotes that really like prove your point on how much appointment viewing has evolved. So I, I'm the generation where I'm Gen Z. So I remember When I was 10, I was in bed watching Full House because I had to, you know, campaign for myself to get a later bedtime in order to catch the episode. And then when my mom would come in and tell me all right, kid gets to bed, I would tell her no, no, seriously, it was all ads. I didn't see anybody act, you know. And now fast forward to the present day. My roommate watches Twitch streams like on the TV screen. And no, it's not entirely ads. The ad load is respectful. You know, we can go on and on about how. Yeah, no streaming in general. I mean, of course, I mean we can go on for, you know, hours about how much the ad load has evolved from you know, 17 to 20 minutes and linear to a much more respectful number on most platforms even though it varies. But yeah, and then appointment viewing for her just means, you know, something more community based or oh, this streamer. I know when, when is, when is
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she actually, you know, that's right.
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Playing this game.
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I think part, you know, at Amazon like customer obsession is, you know, how we think about everything and that includes ad load. So both Prime Video, Twitch, all, all of our, the entire Amazon ads canvas, like we are thinking about making it respectful and making it great for brands to break through.
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B
So great segue into the upfront season. So the upfront season is upon us again. I look at the upfronts as a way to keep a tab on what to your point, what publishers and brands are prioritizing over the years. And you've seen like I said, many upfront seasons from your time at Viacom to your time here at Amazon Ads as the head of agency partnerships. So how would you say that upfronts have meaningfully changed over the years.
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Well, I think, I think you're right. You know, there's something just like cultural and it's a timestamp for this industry. Right. It's a very well lit buying cycle. It's storied. And I'm really, there's a legacy there and I'm really glad that we, we keep it up because I think it helps keep us all smart and it points us in the same direction. And the way I think it's changed is obviously technology has changed it, of course. And I think a lot of times when the upfront approaches, you're primarily thinking about content and we're still doing that and that's great. But right now it's so much about really executing on everything that we believe that ad tech is, is promising. Right. So making sure that it's not only content, but we are embracing all of the ways to make buying more efficient, make planning more efficient, create outcomes. So, so you'll really see that this upfront season how interwoven content and technology are.
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You know, at this point in the industry, I think if you're like the word outcomes doesn't come up at least twice in a conversation, someone's missing something. Right. Because I feel like outcomes is the name of the game now in general, which, you know, which means also at the upfronts. So tell me if you agree with this, Sarah. So I wouldn't go so far as to say that outcomes weren't important, say 10 years ago, but more so that the metric of performance was a lot different. So, you know, in the, in the heyday of broadcasting, cable performance is probably determined by, you know, how many tens of thousands of viewers you reach.
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That's right. Broad simultaneous reach.
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Right. But now when someone.
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That was the name of the game.
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Exactly that. And now when someone says performance, they mean some sort of fancy incremental sales lift study or some something or other. So, I mean, what do you think, Sarah? How has the TV industry's understanding of performance evolved over the past few years?
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Well, I think the marketplace, everyone is selling a combination of reach, efficiency, performance, and they're enabling that through amazing content, sponsorships as well as ad tech. Right. And I think a lot of it is on how the agencies are driving to make these investment decisions and creating clarity and creating, I think, a strong story and evidence that you are actually are going to deliver on an advertiser's goal. That's the name of the game right now, you know, making sure that we help Answer this idea that, you know, connecting media and exposure in these amazing programming environments will lead to the outcome that the advertiser is looking for. And you're right, there are a number of outcomes that they're looking for. They're looking for sales, they're looking for, you know, they're looking for a full funnel, essentially. Like there are those big branding moments where they want, you know, just to have awareness, but then they're looking for conversion at the end. So I think, you know, whether or not the funnel is still the right metaphor because I think we've learned that a decision can come really at any point. Those outcomes and, and brands speaking with clarity about what their, what, what they're seeking to do in the upfront is incredibly important. And I think agencies are doing, you know, are increasingly doing a great job communicating that and conveying that and using the upfront as an, as an opportunity to not only, you know, buy scarcity, but to actually execute an entire full funnel strategy.
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Okay. And even so, zooming in a little bit more on performance and outcomes. So of course Amazon comes from a place of, you know, you can do low funnel, closed loop attribution, all the fancy stuff because you have those, those shopper signals and that's right, because you're known especially for the flagship Amazon Prime E commerce site. So with that said, I think in general, a lot of the conversations I have regarding outcomes maybe tend to focus more lately on this middle of the funnel, you know, as far as like building consideration and just trying to find this, this balance of, you know, get, I guess even getting new customers into the, into the fray too. So what is the, what is the middle of the funnel look like for, for Amazon? And how do you kind of help agencies capture that as well?
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Yeah, I mean, I think of, I think, you know, you've heard us say this before, that Amazon ads, you know, we, we really like reflect that everything store mentality. And we're, we're, you know, looking to embody this idea of being the everything store for advertisers. And so that's like, like you said, it's, it's the signals and those signals are both shopping signals as well as entertainment signals, like what kind of consumption that that viewer has. And it's the combination of that signals scale the content obviously all of the ways that AI is enhancing the journey for both advertisers honestly and, and consumers in the way that we're creating more relevant ads for them. And so in order to create that full funnel, like, sure, we've Got live sports that are creating those big, big branding moments. At the same time, the ability to use these signals to retarget, to create that consideration to look at, you know, we have a lot of ability to see when someone's, you know, looking at detail page views that that's a signal of consideration. And so I think we're really excited that when, when we go into an agency or to a, to the client and they have such a strong understanding of all of these different metrics that we can provide, it's really a way to unpack the funnel and make it just so actionable. And for us, I mean the biggest, I think headline from Amazon ads this year has been our authenticated graph. And I think like when I think about my entire career in advertising and how much we charted a path to really try to understand who we're reaching and reduce waste. To me, like I'm just shouting this wherever I go because this is like the biggest advancement that I've seen. We can deterministically reach 90% of the US households knowing who they are. I mean, it's a really, really incredible step forward, not only for us, but for the industry just in terms of how, you know, we are really taking a step forward in reducing that waste, making it more relevant, making advertising more efficient.
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B
Awesome. Yeah, I think because you mentioned like retargeting, reducing adways. So this ties into something that I've been really curious about for a long time, which is that I'm, you know, of course, you know, TV and ad tech reporter, but I'm also an Amazon prime user and an Amazon prime viewer, prime video viewer. So I, of course. So I just wanted to ask, you know, like, I'm so curious where someone like me would sit in this picture of like Amazon's graph and ultimately like what kind of cohort I'd be in if you know, you were helping an advertiser reduce their waste by reaching me. So maybe I'll tell you like a couple things about me, but I, I don't expect you to say, oh, at three o' clock you're going to see ad for toilet paper. No, no, I just want to understand like what type of demo or even just cohort or segment I might exist in. And um, just, just cause I like to visualize how tech works with examples. So let's see. I'm Gen Z. I mentioned that I live in New York City and I love my cat. You could tell I have cat paintings in the background. A little bit too obsessed with cats.
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And I mean right away. I'm like, you're definitely watching the Pet Awards on Twitch. You know, you're following streamers with pets. We know that you're buying pet food, you know, and we know where you, I think the biggest thing with, you know, you mentioned it geographic. It's, it's, you know, we, we can do that deterministically because you're sending your Amazon packages to your home. So we're very clear on, you know, who you are. And then you just mentioned all these other tidbits about yourself. And so, yeah, I'm sending you a pet food, a cat food ad on Twitch during the Pet Awards.
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B
And then maybe it'll get him away from my door because he's trying to break in right now. All right, awesome. That, that's helpful. It's always helpful to visualize things with examples. So we talked a lot about the upfronts and how tv, the market and content has evolved over the years. I, I also want to just zoom in a little bit more on what Amazon has planned and what's going on in the future in the industry. But before we do, we're going to pause for a brief break and then when we're back, we'll dive into what's, what's happening on the horizon. So stay with. And we're back. So, Sarah, we talked a lot about how the upfront market is changing and a little bit about what Amazon has been up to. So tell us a little bit more about what Amazon has planned for, for this year's upfronts. And I know we talked about at least one announcement in particular not too long ago.
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Yeah, I mean, well, first of all, we are going to, we are going to lead with content, right? You're going to see amazing content from Amazon. A lot of it is going to be unveiled at our upfront event. But I think one thing I'm really obsessed with right now on our sort of strategy side is this idea of page to prime. And so if you think about, I love it because there's such a good story there, like our legacy in books, how we revolutionized, you know, buying books, reading books with Kindle, and then how you listen to books with Audible and knowing that so much of our IP, over 50% of our top titles come from book IP, it's really, really powerful. Because if you think about an audience that is already a fandom or known IP and what that creates, and so talking to brands about that and building off of known IP and beloved IP is so fun, especially in the way that it connects to our heritage. I think there's such an incredible story there. So that's been a big headline for us this upfront season. And then on the ad tech side of things, I think, you know, the biggest thing that we really are, I think touting is number one, is our authenticated graph, which I already mentioned, and that's just like the backbone of everything, but also our ads agent, and that is, you know, how we're actually bringing and consolidating, like, all of the buying and the planning into one platform. It's such an important step, and honestly, it's what customers want. It came from voice of customer of like, I don't want to be opening different, you know, different systems. Like, I just want one place where I can do all of this and optimize. And so we're really trying to help customers navigate, like, fragmentation and make sure that they're coming to us to sort of, you know, really, really chart their, their, their course to measurable outcomes using deterministic signals. And that's really where we're headed. So what I love about it is that it brings together this upfront for at Amazon ads. It brings that I've known and loved for, like, my entire career in this industry, those big content moments and announce announcements backed by a really, really strong content strategy, while at the same time we are actually moving this industry forward and doing, I think, what this whole industry has set out to do is make make sure that advertising keeps getting better, more relevant, more, and, and with more results oriented, you know, really packed in there and so happy having that all happen within the upfront. I mean, it's really exciting and daunting and exciting.
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B
Absolutely. Yeah. I think it's, I think what you're describing is like, what it will look like to really illustrate bringing together the best of both worlds. I mean, it sounds cliche, but we're talking about legacy ip and, you know, as soon as you're talking, I'm thinking Lord of the Rings. Of course, someone was just talking about it the other day. It wasn't even me, but it's, you know, it's just like nobody said anything and this, this guy was like, oh, my God, I just love Lord of the Rings. I just leave him on in the background all day. Okay, well, there's one for you. But yeah. And then usually when I think of Lord of the Rings, I'm not thinking, you know, seller and buying agents, but this is the ad tech world we live in. And hopefully advertising will continue to improve. I think. Another thing interesting that you it's going
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to be more, it's going to be more accountable and like we have to embrace that and we have to do the hard things and make it happen. I think we owe that to brands.
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B
Yeah. Awesome. And also going off of that point as well is you also mentioned Netflix as one example of how Amazon is really helping serve media buyers and brands. That's right, because recently we talked about Amazon audiences being available to buy via Amazon DSP on Netflix inventory. And so what this brings to mind for me is how does this relate to, you know, how agencies are evolving in the ways that they want to work with publishers? Because you mentioned fragmentation. So it's interesting to think about, you know, in what instances they might prefer to buy Netflix inventory directly versus with you at Amazon.
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A
Yeah, I think, you know, the look agencies believe and agencies and brands believe in our, in the power of our signals, that's 100% confirmed. Like I said, they're deterministic and I think reducing complexity, making things more streamlined, that's why we are announcing these partnerships and encouraging brands and agencies to consolidate into the Amazon dsp. It's a simplifier and it's going to drive better outcomes. And so Netflix is a good example also. It's even beyond just the signals. We also have announced that our interactive video ads, we're bringing those to other platforms as well. Samsung was the first one, we've announced that. And so I'm excited to have this like really holistic, fulsome conversation with agencies as we move into this upfront season. I mean, we're already in this season, my favorite season. Although I actually think that the upfront is kind of like an all year thing at this, this point. You know, making sure. Because I think at the top of this I, I talked about how execution is like just such a part of the upfront now. We're executing all year. Right. And the way that the deals have changed over the years, there's a lot more to do outside of this like short window where we used to all stay up all night and do these deals. Like now, you know, there's such an effort and a focus on, you know, excellent execution and continuing to raise the bar throughout the year with our customers.
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B
Yeah, I had the same, well, not the same exact thought as all that yesterday, but I had a very similar thought yesterday where I was, I was sitting there and I was thinking, you know, wow, the upfront season is just all the time. It starts earlier, we're planning in January, planning starts at ces, then the negotiations happen throughout the summer, and then it's September and then you're buying your tickets again and then the up. You know what I mean? It's just literally, it never ends. But I feel like it hasn't always been that way. I'm hearing a lot over the years that the period is becoming longer. Planning starts earlier, maybe sometimes negotiations end longer. I mean, what do you, what do you make of that? Because I have to, I have to guess. I have to venture a guess and say that programmatic and the scatter market is definitely having an impact on the negotiation period as well.
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Right. You know, what I make of it is I think there is increased competition. Right. And there's also more complexity because we're navigating different platforms, you know, different supply sources, different tech. All of the agencies are creating their own technologies and ways to sort of stand out and their own signature technology. And I think, you know, for us, when we think about having these holistic conversations involving the dsp, it sits on top of amazing content from Amazon Prime Video. And that's great.
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B
But.
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But when I think about why it's lasting longer, I think it is that complexity and that competition and the reason why we're working so hard to advance our DSP and create our authenticated graph, which is giving us, you know, that true identity spine, that's deterministic. It is to introduce to the marketplace more flexibility in how they control their investments and how they activate them and how they optimize them. And these are all words that we say. But I actually believe that this is. I'm watching it happen, and I believe that it's going to happen even more. And so the foundation is the deal and so the upfront is that gateway for us to actually realize that. And that's one of the reasons why I think that the focus on execution, this upfront, is so huge. It's fragmented. We're fragmented. We're a fragmented industry right now. And there's like a lot of inefficiencies. And I think it's hard to navigate and it's, it's, it's hard to land that message because I think we all know that's what we want as an industry. And then, you know, making that stand out is. Is important. And for me, when I think about how it stands out, it's our authenticated graph and our Amazon signals. I think they're better than anything else out there.
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B
And even just generally speaking. But to your point about, you know, improving the ad experience and dealing with fragmentation, you know, I mentioned I have a roommate and we've lived together for at least a year. So we probably have, you know. Well, my point is we have very different ad experiences even when we're watching on the same tv. I mean, it's just. So that's, that, that's a testament to how much something is working out there.
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A
Because something's working.
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Something's working. I get, you know, mostly cats and weight loss ads and she gets other, other things. And I don't even know why I get those. I know why I get the cat stuff. But anyway, that's a whole other conversation. But yes, our ad experiences are very polar opposite. So of course I'm like, well, all right, guys, it's working.
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I got it. I got a casting ad the other day to sign up to be an extra on the Gilded Age. And I'm like, give me a period piece. And like, yes, whoever targeted me with that, genius.
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B
That's amazing. That's a story for. We should talk about more about that when we offline. I will remind you I have questions. So zooming in about on Amazon a little bit more because I have one more question before we wrap things up. You mentioned the interactive video advertising technology. Samsung's an adopter of that. Now. I'm very interested in how that ties into Amazon and the industry's overall pursuit of, you know, performance. Middle of the funnel, fancy ad formats, pause ads, home screen ads, all the good stuff. So how, how do interactive ad formats tie into Amazon's overarching strategy this year?
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A
Oh my gosh. Well, I think when I think about interactive ad units and how powerful they are, I mean, and not only how powerful they've already been, because like, I think step one was add to cart, right? Like you gotta create, you know, an amazing retail extension and opportunity for brands within our environment. It's just, that was mission critical. But knowing where interactive ads are going and what AI will do for interactive ads, it's incredible. It's, it's boundless. And we have the opportunity to deliver an incredibly relevant ad to not only the consumer, but also relevant within the context of the story. And when I think about what brands value, which is, you know, somebody that's going to engage and interact with their ad, with their ad, they invest so much in making these beautiful ads and to enable it with interactivity, whether it's shopping or, you know, just a participation moment, that's, that's, that's the good stuff that's going to make advertising better. It's not going to make you leave your couch and go somewhere else and get a snack. You're going to sit there and engage because it's meaningful to you and it's relevant within the story. So I'm excited about that, you know, becoming more prominent. And, you know, we see incredible adoption of interactive ad units. And I think it's a testament that, you know, other services are starting to adopt our models.
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B
I think that's a great point too. Like, it has to be more than just endemic or something that you would think is natural in the moment of, oh, I'm watching tv, let me order a burger. You know, it's more nuanced than that. It has to be relevant for the actual context of the show that you might be watching.
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A
I mean, it's the context of the show, it's the context of the person, it's where they're located and being able to optimize those things and create a more relevant experience for your, your target audience. Like. Yes, yes.
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B
All right, so if there's any media buyers or advertisers listening that want to reach me, show me more cat ads, I will click on all of them. You know, I'll spend a lot of time on that in case that's helpful for anybody listening. Okay, so we're running out of time, so let's just end on a forward looking question. So we talked about what's on. What's top of mind for, for you at Amazon and for publishers and brands and agencies in general. This year. They're thinking about, you know, control, content, quality, performance. All right, that's a lot of buzzwords. But let's, let's kind of boil it down into, you know, Sarah, what would you say is the top one or two things or trends rather that, that we should be looking for this year?
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A
I think, and I think you'll always hear me say this is like, we are never going to ignore that this is a creative industry at its heart. And just because we're becoming more technologically enabled, it doesn't mean that that's not creative. And so I love to see brands that are just fully leaning in on keeping creative at the center. And for us, we are paying attention. And so I think you'll still see like a lot of importance placed on sponsorships and, you know, custom work within the, within IP and also, you know, putting together like, cross, you know, I think about the Amazon canvas and what we're doing with live sports and Twitch. I think that's gonna continue to be really, really exciting for the marketplace in general. So you, you'll Have a live. You'll have an NBA game, but then you'll have creators doing creator casts on Twitch. A brand can be in both places reaching people at different moments in their, you know, in their. In their day. And I think that's. That's the future is these integrated creative moments that are enabled by, like, incredible technology advances that we've made as an industry. So no abandonment of creative. It's still a creative industry. That's one thing that I would say is. Is paramount in this. In this, this year's upfront. And then secondly, I'd say premium content, right? All of this, all of these advances to improve ad experiences and ad accountability for brands. It sits on content. And there is still incredible demand for the most premium tier. And a lot of my early conversations are still pointing to that. So feel very lucky to have an incredible, you know, live sports and professional, professionally produced, amazing premium prime video shows and also movies. So excited that that is, you know, continuing the legacy of the upfront in a good way.
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B
All right, that's a nice note to end it on. I like the sound of that. Great. Well, there's a lot to look forward to this year. And, yeah, I feel like we could extend this for three more hours and we still wouldn't get to everything. But I'm glad that we got to boil it down to what's top of mind and what's really watched for this year. And so, yeah, so I guess good luck to us in the upfront season, right? That's right.
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A
Happy upfront to everybody.
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B
Happy upfront celebrates. All right, thanks so much, Saria.
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A
All right, thanks, Sam.