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ROAS? Nah. The Home Depot’s All About ROMO
00:44:58
Enough with the ROAS obsession. It’s time for a smarter approach to measurement that focuses on more than short-term objectives, says Melanie Babcock-Brown, VP of media and monetization for Orange Apron Media, The Home Depot’s retail media network.
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- [00:00]
Melanie Babcock Brown
Foreign welcome to Ad Exchanger Talks, the podcast devoted to examining the issues and trends in advertising and marketing technology that matter most to you.
- [00:32]
Allison Schiff
I'm Allison Schiff and you're listening to Ad Exchanger Talks. Thanks for that. My guest this week has been with the Home depot for almost 12 years, so she knows the company inside and out these days. Melanie Babcock Brown is VP of Media and Monetization for Orange Apron Media, which is the Home Depot's retail media network. It was one of the first RMNs to hit the scene. The Home Depot launched in 2018, and there's been a lot of change since since then, including a full rebrand. We'll get into all the nerdy details, including Orange Apron's audience strategy and what really goes into building your own rmn, because it ain't easy. But first, please set yourself a reminder to register, if you haven't already, for programmatic IO taking place on September 29th and 30th in New York City. We've got an extra special discount for our podcast listeners. 25% off your ticket. With you, use the code pod, crush, all one word and all in caps. We've got so many great sessions on our agenda, including a spicy fireside chat with Alvaro Bedoya, who's suing the Trump administration for his illegal firing from the ftc. And we've got execs from Disney, Netflix, and the Chief Investment Officer of Digitas exploring the future of ctv. But there's a ton on the agenda, so make sure to go check it out and grab your ticket while you're there because they're selling fast. So see you in New York. Hey, Melanie, welcome to the podcast.
- [01:59]
Melanie Babcock Brown
Thank you. I appreciate it.
- [02:01]
Allison Schiff
Glad to hear you. What is something about you that not a lot of other people already know? Just a little fun fact.
- [02:11]
Melanie Babcock Brown
Well, on top of all the fun things I get to do at work, I. I have two girls who are pretty elevated in Girl Scouts. They would not like me to tell you that because they are also travel softball players. But we are on a mission to get our gold award. And if you are familiar with the Girl Scout trajectory, that is the same as an Eagle Scout award for Girl Scouts. So we are working through those awards right now and they're pretty significant awards. They require a big impact on the community, tons of hours to drive that project. And so that's something I'm doing in my spare time when we're not at a softball field, is to achieve these awards because I think it's important for girls to see them complete something and achieve a high award as a result of their efforts.
- [03:06]
Allison Schiff
Absolutely. And of course, I'm now thinking of my favorite thing in the world, which is Thin Mints. And they must be put in the fridge before you eat them. That is the optimal way to consume a Thin Mint.
- [03:17]
Melanie Babcock Brown
Oh, and the best thing is, is that in June, you go to your freezer and you see the forgotten sleeve of Thin Mints.
- [03:25]
Allison Schiff
Yeah, it's always hiding behind something.
- [03:31]
Melanie Babcock Brown
So I'm there with you.
- [03:32]
Allison Schiff
You've been at Home Depot for a really long time.
- [03:36]
Melanie Babcock Brown
12 years.
- [03:37]
Allison Schiff
Almost 12 years. And I've been at Ad Exchanger for just over 11. Congratulations. Feels crazy. And you worn a lot of different hats during that time. And I wanted to make a joke, like hard hats, because it's come deeper. I love that. Yes. You've worn a lot of different hard hats during that time. So when you joined from Cardlytics, it was late 2013. You were senior director of social media, and then you became the senior director of Agile marketing, which is a very interesting title. And it, to my understanding, pretty much put you in charge of the media strategy. And then for five years between 2017 and 2022, you kind of became all of those things at once because you were the senior director of agile Marketing and social media, ad tech and display, and then VP of Integrated Marketing for a few years, early 2023, VP of Media and monetization for the Orange Apron Media Network, which is the Home Depot's retail media network. So how is all of that experience that you have as a marketer from. For the Home Depot, as a brand, like helping you support the Home Depot essentially as a publisher of sorts, because you have your own inventory to sell. You're working on the media network side now.
- [04:48]
Melanie Babcock Brown
I do. It has been a. It's almost like a ladder journey. Right. You. I came in to manage and build a social commerce practice in an era when social media was moving and transforming from more of a communications platform to a comms and advertising platform. And those early days were great because we were meeting with Facebook and it was called Facebook and Pinterest and others to talk about products that were appropriate for retailers. And what we wanted was driving traffic and sales to our site in our stores. And so I was able to work with product managers from those teams in those early days to really shape retail products that we could leverage to drive our objectives and really convince our chief marketing officer at the time and our merchandising partners that social media is a viable channel to connect with customers and to Drive traffic and sales to our channels. And that started my journey of really driving into understanding more about our customer. How they shop, the times of years that they shop, the difference between a consumer and a pro, very different that homeowner renter versus a professional contractor. And as a result, when the opportunity came about to run Agile marketing, that is an internal name, I realized that. But it was around building a marketing personalization strategy. How do we talk to customers who are in projects and who are seeking products or running their business as a painter or electrician in ways that are really helpful to them. And up to that point we had an event calendar or a marcom, which we still have today. It's a very valid strategy for us, but back then it was our strategy. And let's say you're in the middle of a bath project, but it's May and we're like, we're going to sell you a lawnmower. You're like, I don't need a lawnmower today because I'm in the middle of bath project. And we couldn't distinguish you by those project types. Instead we just told you what we were going to told you because it was time to talk about lawnmowers in our calendar.
- [07:10]
Allison Schiff
Right.
- [07:11]
Melanie Babcock Brown
And to me that was wasting money and time with our customer. So this Agile marketing, or now what we would we now call it audience marketing, was the initiation of really understanding the power of our first party data. And it wasn't collected in a way that we could use in media. We didn't have really any form of martech, so we had to figure all that out. And it was our big first step into harnessing one of Home Depot's most powerful assets. And that's what the customer tells us about themselves on a daily basis around the projects and products in their home, as well as our pro contractors. And it really became the foundation of how we operate as a marketing department at Home Depot. Those audiences were then picked up and used across many other parts of our company because of how powerful they were and its predictive and deterministic nature. And then from there just having that really good understanding of our data. I was permitted to run the media and marketing practice at Home Depot, which is integrated media. And at that time I also launched retail media. That was a, that was like something that was happening on the side. It was kind of interesting back in that 2018, 2019 timeframe. But then it became like really big in 2020. I think 2020 was the year of retail media networks and it's been the year of retail media networks ever since. Like it just continues to grow and expand and evolve because it is such an important part of the advertisers retail or advertisers media buy and media mix and having those foundational understanding of like influencing my partners and creating deep relationships with those media partners with Pinterest and Facebook and Google and Yahoo, very important partners. That has just been the success to my career at Home Depot. As I moved into these different kind of, I would say not yet built out ownable spaces inside of marketing where I was be able to craft a narrative to say I think this is why it's important and we should go after our marketing in these ways has been a really big key of how I've grown and retail media is no different. Retail media is kind of the summation of really understanding our customer audiences, really knowing our home depot.com properties, really partnering with our suppliers to understand what do they need to be successful through the Home Depot and what are our company strategies for our consumers because we want them to keep coming back to Home Depot for every home improvement need. So retail media is kind of the summation, I think of all of my experience, even in those highlights that I share today.
- [10:14]
Allison Schiff
Almost like an end cap little shop for marketing humor.
- [10:17]
Melanie Babcock Brown
Yeah, a little shop for marketing humor sprinkled in with a lot of product data, science, IT and ad tech, which was a whole other new arena for me.
- [10:27]
Allison Schiff
So yeah, there's so much to unpack there. But I want to talk a little bit about audience and how Home Depot thinks about audience beyond demos and beyond, you know, basic signals like seasonality and getting more into intent and targeting. People who might be interested in DIY projects, for example, or like someone who just bought a new home or they're doing renovations, that sort of thing. How do you effectuate that? How do you make that happen? Because it sounds great, but I imagine it's pretty challenging even having access to a lot of first party data and a lot of signals.
- [11:02]
Melanie Babcock Brown
Yeah, well, I think it all comes down to that. Demographic data, although has a role, isn't necessary the leading signal of what we need to invest in to drive customer preference to the Home Depot. And that's what we learned early on. Any of us can be in a bathroom project or, or any form of renovation in our home and we don't necessarily have the same demographic profile, live in the same geographic area, have the same income, but we have the same need of solving that problem in our home called a bathroom renovation. Now maybe your bathroom renovation is a large Master bath and Your budget is $50,000 and mine is a small bathroom and my budget is $1,500. And you hire a contractor. I'm doing it myself. Those are very different. But at the end of the day, we needed to identify customers who are in these ever important projects in their lives and then give them appropriate content to help them feel confident about those choices. What's interesting about Home Depot versus other retailers is every customer who comes into an aisle may not have been in that aisle in the last five years. Let's say paint is a great example. Most people have been in the paint aisle. But have you been in it in the last year if you're not painting your home? Not necessarily. So every time you come into an aisle other than seasonal or cleaning those products, their technology changes, their innovation changes, maybe even the applicators change. And you have to kind of start your journey over, even though it's a familiar project like paint. So we knew that about our customer and had to start developing content to support them in their journey. So how do you identify them? It was a lot of data science, just to be honest with you, of like, okay, this person is looking for a vanity. What's great about the Home Depot is people don't usually shop for home improvement products without a strong intent. So I used to say all the time, people don't shop for vandies for fun. It's not something people do on the weekend. Let's just go look at vanities. You generally have a large intent around that. And a vanity does indicate a project, a faucet doesn't. It's a project of break and fix, like I've got to repair something, but it's not an indicator of a large bathroom project. So we started to have to look at all these different signals we were receiving from customers and look at predictive analysis and the history of customer behavior. Whether they're clicking our emails, visiting our website, the kind of products that they were putting in their basket, the frequency that they were shopping with us, those all became the signals for us to build these models. And we've really evolved that over time, especially now as the customer is stepping away from large projects or going into more small projects. But at the end of the day, we can shift with the customer behaviors because we have this fabulous source of data that's been, I think, designed in a way that's around these, these projects or products. One thing that we learned is, you know, if you have a refrigerator that breaks, you've got 48 hours to get that Customer to come to your store. That's it. People will not tolerate a broken refrigerator. Right? There's too much at stake. Maybe you have food and coolers or something. And you're like, I gotta solve this problem pretty fast. So then we started looking at the timing of when people were making decisions about products and then how fast could we market to them in those time delays. So with a washer and dryer, it's 74. It's seven to 14 days. So then all of a sudden it's like, okay, how do we then know how to reach these customers based on the time that they need? Our help was also a big slice. And then we've evolved that even further now to more of those typical lifetime value metrics around recency, around category recency. So you may come to Home Depot and buy your garden supplies, but you never buy cleaning. How do we get you to know and come in, hey, you're coming in this weekend for garden. How do you know about cleaning? So those are the types of ways we've been able to think about that customer and be able to speak to that customer based on this set of data.
- [15:39]
Allison Schiff
And all of that data is hugely important to get advertisers to work with you through the orange. Yeah, the Orange Media Network.
- [15:48]
Melanie Babcock Brown
Because when you think about a supplier, we call our supplier partners suppliers. They're advertisers too, but our general term is supplier. And they're our number one customer in our retail media network. Their job is to ensure that every touch point at Home Depot is a great touch point at Home Depot. So they have to make sure that their store setup is really successful, that their relationship with merchandising is solid, that their customer experience that their brand is represented well. There's so many things that they have to worry about or not worry about, like things that they have to, I think, address to make a successful relationship with a retailer. The missing piece was, what do I know about this customer? And that didn't exist before retail media networks. That's why region networks are so popular, because it was like that was kind of the blind spot of how do I set. Do I do all this work to make sure that my brand is represented well in these apps, sites and stores? How do I know that the customer is seeing what I think they should be seeing? Or do they connect with my brand in a way? And the retail media network is what made that possible at the end of the day, because there were already fabulous media channels out there, right, who have great tech, great customer, or great user experiences with ad buying but they didn't have that ever important home improvement customer who was either looking at that vanity. And how do I know that if I'm a paint customer, if I'm a paint supplier. But oh by the way, those two relationships are super important because if you're looking at vanity you're going to paint. And so we bring that to our supplier so that they can feel confident that they're talking to the right customer at the right time, whether they're in that bath project or just looking for that single item.
- [17:53]
Allison Schiff
So that's so interesting because it's about the cross sell. But I'm curious about attracting non endemic advertisers also who don't have products at Home Depot. Like your strategy for making your platform valuable to them. But you also have to be relevant to a core shopper like an insurance provider for example because like homeowners shopping at the Home Depot might plausibly be in the market for home insurance. Or like a telecom company, if you're setting up a home, maybe you're open to a new Internet or cable provider. But yeah, you make the case because it's logical, but you have to prove the performance. So how do you make the case to attract those sorts of advertisers?
- [18:27]
Melanie Babcock Brown
We are, I would say in our early journey with non endemic, we do have some really good programs in place. We've seen good success with those programs. The scale is where we're stepping into next. And so honestly we've known for a while that there are some really great non endemic partners in financial services insurance. Anybody who wants to talk to a person who owns a home about their home policy auto is a really big partner or an opportunity for us to come. You know, people who want to talk to either a business owner like a pro contractor, which is a huge part of the Home Depot success story story is these pro contractors in our audience database or as well as a consumer. So we, we're aware of that now what we're trying to do is create either data monetization strategies with existing DSP partners, which I think a lot of people do. So we're not, we're in that game too. But what are other opportunities that involve our stores or involve our on site experience because we have a lot of how to content. So one of our partners is State Farm and they really wanted to touch on the mover and we have a lot of moving tips, how to pack, how to assess the number of boxes you need based on your room size. And so a lot of People come to Home Depot to prepare for the move and that seems like to be a good place for State Farm to talk about home and renters insurance. Right. So I don't think we have a full scaled offering yet, but we also on the offerings that we do have, they work very well and I'm actually happier with that as the outcome than just mass non endemic because it does take time for us to socialize those ideas around the building because at the end of the day we're still retailer and we still serve a home improvement customer or a contractor and we want to make sure that the ad that they see is relevant to them as a homeowner or as a small business owner.
- [20:51]
Allison Schiff
True. But even if you're a pro, you're also a well rounded person with a variety of interests and needs.
- [20:58]
Melanie Babcock Brown
Right. So they are, they are, they need, they need trucks, they need insurance, they need telecom services. So absolutely. There's not a lot of extreme differentiation between the needs of that pro and consumer when it comes to our non endemic opportunities. I am very interested frankly in, you know, quick serve because you've got a pro who lives out of their truck, right? Yeah, so they're definitely stopping into those quick serve restaurants or experiences, but so do consumers. I mean they do the same thing. How many times do you get in your car and go get coffee in the morning? So that's, you know, it's really not that different when you think about the non endemics and who they can target. A consumer and pro customer is important to both of them.
- [21:50]
Allison Schiff
Right. We're going to take a quick break, but when we're back we're just going to keep nerding out on retail media. So stick with us.
- [21:58]
Melanie Babcock Brown
Foreign.
- [22:13]
Allison Schiff
We'Re back and I want to zoom out a little bit and talk about the retail media network category writ large because there are so many retail media networks out there right now. And if we were having this conversation last year, I could say like feels like there's a new RMN almost every day. I feel like we were mentioning them in our daily newsletters constantly. It became almost like a meme, like guess who has one now? Chuck E. Cheese, for example. Like has its own retail media network. And honestly, good for them. I mean if they see the opportunity, everyone I think should try their hand at it maybe. Although perhaps you disagree because I imagine there's a lot of internal investment. It's not a lot of work. You can't just press a button and have a retail media network. But my question is more like will they all be standing in a few years from now or are we going to see almost like a natural culling because Chuck E. Cheese, for example has a play parents, you know, kids, of course you have to be careful about advertising kids. And I don't mean to just pick on Chuck E. Cheese, but it is quite, quite a specific one and there are so many specific ones. So I'm asking without naming names like who deserves to exist in this category.
- [23:32]
Melanie Babcock Brown
I also felt that way for the last few years with the advent of so many new retail media networks. And so one of the things that I have said to my team is at the end of the day we were in the first 10 that launched and if there's 10 to remain, we will be on that list. So how do we continue to innovate and deliver really great results and build a network that competes in this ever changing market? So I don't think your observation is off, but for the retail media networks that are established, it's a bit of a, I think a wake up call of like, are you innovating and are you staying relevant with your suppliers or your advertisers and helping drive their business? At the end of the day, like that's what you have to do. And if you are, if you look around and look at all the different retail media networks that are out there, you know, I think I am a very traditional retail media network. I have a top 5 e commerce site in the country that produces billions of visits to our site, over a billion transactions to our site. That's the foundation of a great retail media network because at the end of the day we're a great retailer. I think other companies see their value in different ways and maybe I'm not, I don't see that because I'm not in those environments. But you know, commerce retail media or commerce media I should say, they actually have a very interesting set of data that could be used in ways that I think any advertiser just wants efficiency with their spend. They want to know that they're targeting a customer that's likely to be in market or likely to be a part of their target audience and they want to send a message. And the more first party data that you have to target those customers, the better off your chances are of achieving that goal. So if you are Chuck E. Cheese and you have this great data set, I mean my girls are, you know, middle school and high school, but you better believe we were at Chuck E. Cheese for birthday parties when they were in early elementary school, they now have a data set that says my girls are older and that's maybe of interest to whoever wants to target those types of, of age ranges is me as a parent. So I, I see their validity. It just may not look like what I have today and what I find to be the most important tenants of my retail media network, but that doesn't mean that they find that needs to be true for them. I think retailers and people with good first party data are going to, they're going to take a try at it and, and they should. It's a good business to be in and like I said, if you can help advertisers meet their goals in a more efficient and effective way, then you have a winning solution. But don't underestimate how hard it is to build and run a retail media network because it's not media buying. It is a business in it of itself that is, needs a lot of nurturing and caring and innovation to keep it going. And if a retailer or a commerce company is not interested in making that level of investment then, then don't do it because this is a lot of hard work. I, I know there's a lot of revenue and there's a lot of margin but man do we earn every penny of it.
- [27:20]
Allison Schiff
What you're talking about reminds me of that wave of in housing from a few years ago and then the, we refer to it internally at Ad Exchanger, sort of jokingly as the in housing followed by the outhousing because brands realized that bringing media buying in house was not easy and you have to keep investing in it. It's not a one off sort of thing and you have to hire people and you have to keep calibrating and innovating. It's its own thing.
- [27:47]
Melanie Babcock Brown
Everything for Home Depot, I, I understand that journey. It's, they're long and hard and complicated and fun and very rewarding. The jobs we've been able to create, the talent that we've been able to promote within Home Depot, it's, it's been truly remarkable for the people of Home Depot and what in the skills that they have acquired. I'm, I'm immensely proud of that. But no, it's not for the faint of heart. It is a true business. And you're right, the in housing to outhousing, that's, that was tough too. But you know, I think a lot of retailers do have a space in, in their business for this kind of offering. It just needs to now compete with those who've been at it for a while and that's Going to be tough.
- [28:38]
Allison Schiff
Well, speaking of having been at it for a while, like you said, Home Depot first launched your RMN back in 2018. It wasn't called the Orange Apron Media Network back then though. It was retail Media plus with a little plus sign. And you were branded to Orange Apron last year. And I really applaud that decision because there are way too many things that have a plus sign in their name. I have to say it kind of makes it sound like a CTV play.
- [29:02]
Melanie Babcock Brown
I'm like, well, before it was an internal name for us to help tell our story and it became an external name and then we decided, wait a minute, let's, let's really step back and decide who we are to our suppliers and to those non endemic partners, like who are we and how do we stand out now on these 200 plus retail media networks? And so we went through a major rebranding. It just, it wasn't just the name. We actually went all the way down to brand tenants. We wrote a customer promise. We are connected dearly back into the Home Depot brand and our values. It is, it was a pretty extensive exercise and one I'm very proud of.
- [29:46]
Allison Schiff
Well, take me through that process just a little bit like the evolution of the retail media strategy and the technology between 2018 and now. Like what exactly changed beyond the name, what you learned along the way? Any missteps that you can share that you learned from, for example?
- [30:01]
Melanie Babcock Brown
Yeah, I think the only thing that's, that the only thing that hasn't changed from 2018 today is me. The one thing that stayed, we have gone through an entire overhaul of our tech stack and it's because we saw the need to in house that product for ourselves with our ad servers. We had to, you know, everyone wants to build everything. And we were like, how about if we build and how, what if we buy and build? So we went out and bought and built. Right. Which is very different approach where we bought an ad server, but we then had to engineer it to be appropriate for our business. So from a tech stack, just all kinds of innovation and change there. How do you operationalize in scale? You can do anything for any advertiser. You can customize a campaign, you can build a custom audience, you can write a custom report, but can you do that for thousands? Now all of a sudden that's a very different operational challenge. So our operational model had to change dramatically because at first we were just like, yeah, we can do this. And you get a little bit of the Lucy in the Chocolate Factory where the factory Belt is starting to spin a lot faster and your practices are not meeting the demands of your customers. You have to reinvent. So we had to reinvent how we operate, which is not, is kind of the non sexy part of the business but man, is that fundamental. Even just how we like our contracting process. Retail media finance does not fit into retail finance by the way. So we had to re engineer our financial processes. So I know these are some of the less fun things, but very much had to reinvent ourselves at certain points of this growth. And honestly I think we're at a reinvention right now where we are really looking at like how do we not only continue to deliver on our commitments to our suppliers, but we have to continue to surprise and delight them in the future. So we're at a bit of a reinvention phase right now, especially with incrementality measurement. And how do we scale that? Again, we can do incrementality measurement for any one person, but to scale, scale it is really the important thing. We're, we just launched a unified ad buying platform in January, at the end of January.
- [32:51]
Allison Schiff
Is that Orange Access?
- [32:53]
Melanie Babcock Brown
It is Orange Access. So you go in and you could buy both our on site and off site ads through one platform and get your measurement all in one platform. Before that was bifurcated, it was two different systems. And that's frustrating. No one wants to log in and out of two different systems, pull data down, figure if it's working, you know, out on an Excel spreadsheet. So, you know, how did we launch that to create a unified system? Our platform was built both on site and off site at the same time. So we never had to go from like a pure on site owned property retail media network and then extend into the off site channels. It was grown together which I think is, looking back was difficult, but a blessing for our business. So unifying those experiences became a real priority for us because that was, you know, a big mix. The media mix was, was significant between both those channels. So that was a big, I think, moment in time for us. And now we're optimizing that tool to make sure that it's doing what we thought it was going to do. There's, it's like there's, there's never, I mean you take one thing off your to do list and you know, five more things come on. We just reorganized our sales teams into titles that are appropriate for retail media networks. They still had some, you know, former marketing titles. When we kind of moved from when I was the head of marketing and built retail media. I used the same titles. Now we've retitled people to feel more like, oh, okay, I'm now a salesperson and not a marketing person at Home Depot. So even like small things like that have made a big impact, I think on the growth of our business and the in the pivotal nature of where we are today. I mean, I think at the end of the day, suppliers and non endemics, they want to connect with homeowners. Homeowners will always have problems to solve in their home. Always. There is always a challenge, whether it's buying a cleaning supply as simply as that or your washer and dryer breakdown this weekend. And we have access to those customer problems and we have solutions through our suppliers and they're always going to want to connect. How easy we make it and how effective we make it is really up to us. And if we want to maintain our position in the marketplace and continue to compete, you better believe we're going to be constantly optimizing our tools, our processes, our products and our people to be able to deliver on those commitments.
- [35:40]
Allison Schiff
And you mentioned measurement, which I want to talk about to bring us home. There's so much to say and there's no lack of acronyms in ad tech. So tossed another one onto the pile, which is Romo Return on marketing objectives.
- [35:56]
Melanie Babcock Brown
Mark our original. He is the originator of Romo and it's so fun to see that becoming a fun acronym out there. But yes, we all need one more Ackerman acronym. Well, MO is Return on Marketing Objective. Marketing objective.
- [36:15]
Allison Schiff
I won't tell Zach that you forgot disappeared from my brain and but it's a measurement framework. It evaluates a lot of different marketing efforts that contribute to the broader goals beyond just immediate sales. So the overall impact of retail media campaigns across the entire customer journey, including.
- [36:34]
Melanie Babcock Brown
Direct outcomes and indirect outcomes, it's a moment of maturity. Like yes, everyone started with quick wins. Yes, we're going to retarget your customers and we're going to generate sales boom. And that's true. And we built, you know, a business off of those lower funnel tactics. But as you mature as a retail media network and as just frankly a media network, which is what we're re what we're going toward, you need different forms of measurement framework because in home improvement the journey is so long with projects, it can take six months for someone to decide on a paint color. It can take a year to decide that you're going to do that kitchen and last click high roas may not be the objective. It's creating a relationship with that customer who's in the process of making those decisions about those bigger projects in their home. And Romo makes more sense for us as a result.
- [37:39]
Allison Schiff
Is there a place for ROAS in the retail media world or should it really be replaced by this smarter approach that doesn't just focus on the low hanging fruit? Yes. Okay. Definitive, yes.
- [37:52]
Melanie Babcock Brown
So fast, right? Yes. But one of the things that I caution my team on is we need to be a highly valued partner to our suppliers, but not so unique and bespoke that they have a hard time understanding their investments with us versus with others. We don't want to create a challenge of like, well, we measure everything differently, so you can't compare us. So ROAS is kind of a universal way of measurement. And I don't want to abandon Roas, even though I think there's a far better methodology, because it does create consistency for my supplier and I don't want to create difficulties for them. They have a job, they need to invest in the smartest way possible to drive their business objectives. And if we create such a bespoke way of measurement, then it's difficult for them to compare and that's, that's not fair to them either.
- [38:56]
Allison Schiff
Well, and of course, there are all of these industry efforts to help with standardization of formats, of metrics, of approaches. How are you guys involved in those conversations? Are you participating?
- [39:10]
Melanie Babcock Brown
Well, we're definitely in the iab. We are. We have lots of different membership there. We sit on many different. They call them boards, but they're more just like the media buyers of every major media property, every major onboarder. Like, we are part of the conversation of their roadmaps to create those standardizations. Like I said, we're on the IAB board across many different types of topics. I'm on the MMA global board where we talk about, you know, marketing trends in general. So just a lot of representation to make sure that we hear from different, either retail media networks or different retailers or different brands in general about what those pain points are so that we're part of the conversation. I think that's what's the most important thing, is that you're in the conversation so that when you go back home to your, to your job, you can bring those insights to your teams to say, this is where we think the standardization is going.
- [40:15]
Allison Schiff
Even so though, are. Are you guys and our most retail media networks essentially walled gardens?
- [40:26]
Melanie Babcock Brown
We are right now. Yeah. But how does that work in a world of AI that walled gardens become very difficult. Right. Because AI is looking for data to feed the models and to create great large language models. So for now we are. But again, going back to like, we're at this pivotal moment and we always need to be inventing something new and looking at trends in the marketplace. I don't know, do we remain that way going forward? It's hard for me not to think that we're not a walled garden because our data is so key to our success. But I'm sure we're going to have to adjust.
- [41:08]
Allison Schiff
I see a future world of interoperability. Right. I mean, if it's all about making retail media perform and be accessible for advertisers and getting rid of the friction and the fragmentation, it doesn't mean giving away the keys to everything, but like more partnerships and more like, you know, handshakes.
- [41:29]
Melanie Babcock Brown
Yes. And, you know, if. And it's our job to remain relevant to the customer so that the transaction still happens in our store. And so having interoperability is important because at the end of the day, the supplier wants to be where the customer is transacting and we want to be a part of that, that, that opportunity. Right. So I think we will all have to continue to evolve our thinking around that.
- [42:04]
Allison Schiff
That sounds like a good on which to end because I guess let's check in in a year and see if that's happened.
- [42:13]
Melanie Babcock Brown
I'm sure we'll see movement for sure.
- [42:16]
Allison Schiff
I do have one last question that's not retail media related, but I just moved into an apartment, so I'm taking notes. Do you have any, like, go to home improvement hacks? Anything you could suggest just in general?
- [42:30]
Melanie Babcock Brown
So funny.
- [42:34]
Allison Schiff
I mean, beyond storing your thin mints in the freezer.
- [42:37]
Melanie Babcock Brown
Oh yeah, that's a hack right there.
- [42:39]
Allison Schiff
A life hack right there.
- [42:43]
Melanie Babcock Brown
I don't know, when you said that, the first thing I thought of, which is I don't know if this is a hack or not, is the stud finder tool you can put. It's a product that you put on the wall and it will tell you where the stud is so you can hang things. I find that to be very helpful, to be honest with you, because by the way, the first project any person will do in a new home or in an apartment is hang pictures. It's the first project.
- [43:11]
Allison Schiff
Well, if you look behind me, you can see a lot of stuff hanging on the wall.
- [43:15]
Melanie Babcock Brown
So a stud finder is always an important tool to have in your, in your tool bag. I don't know what is another home improvement hack, man, there are so many. There's so many products that I think are just. We go on these store walks, and our merchants will tell us about all the innovation. I'm like, I need that, and I need that. I just saw a product that I thought was so cool. It is. You put it on the wall plate in your bathroom, and it will automatically turn off your fan when the shower, when the condensation is done, it reads the temperature of the room, and it turns it off for you.
- [43:54]
Allison Schiff
It literally reads the room. All right.
- [43:56]
Melanie Babcock Brown
I like that there are all kinds of products that are, like, not. They're not sexy, but, like, we have a product that will tell you if you have a leak in your water line and from your phone, you can turn your water off. So let's say you're traveling and there's a problem. And, like, things like that that are so helpful that, you know, 20 years ago, we wouldn't have never imagined having those capabilities, I think are really important tools for customers that they may not be aware that they even exist.
- [44:31]
Allison Schiff
Now it's just about getting these products in front of the people.
- [44:34]
Melanie Babcock Brown
I guess my biggest hack is, man, if you just moved in, throw away all the stuff you haven't used in a year.
- [44:40]
Allison Schiff
Oh, hell yeah. I got rid of so much, Melanie.
- [44:42]
Melanie Babcock Brown
You have no idea. I'm a purger, man. I'm like, I don't need this.
- [44:45]
Allison Schiff
Makes me feel beautiful. Feeling.