What The World Looks Like To Smaller Agencies

Summary

AdExchanger Podcast Summary: "What The World Looks Like To Smaller Agencies"

Release Date: January 28, 2025

Introduction

In the January 28, 2025 episode of AdExchanger Talks, host Allison Schiff engages in an insightful conversation with Remy Stiles, CEO of Kepler for North America. The discussion delves into the challenges and opportunities faced by smaller agencies in a rapidly consolidating ad tech landscape, the impact of major industry mergers, and the evolving role of AI in media buying. Throughout the episode, Remy shares his personal journey, Kepler’s strategic positioning, and forward-thinking approaches to maintaining competitiveness and innovation.

Guest Background

Remy Stiles opens the conversation by sharing personal interests and his athletic background, fostering a relatable connection with the audience. As a Brandeis University alumnus, Remy emphasizes the importance of teamwork and perseverance, which he translates into his professional life at Kepler. He proudly mentions, “[...] we actually hold sort of a fake record for the fastest time with three women on the team” (02:36), highlighting the company's culture of camaraderie and excellence.

Kepler's Evolution

Allison Schiff prompts Remy to provide an overview of Kepler, tracing its origins from a spin-off of MediaMath in 2012 to its current status as a full-service media agency. Remy outlines Kepler’s comprehensive services, which encompass strategy, execution, and analytics across all paid channels. He states, “We are a full service media agency, essentially running pretty much all paid channels and everything from strategy through execution through analytics” (08:45). Remy credits Kepler’s sustained growth and success to its foundational values of transparency, growth mindset, and continuous innovation.

Kepler within Q Collective

The discussion shifts to Kepler’s acquisition by the Q Collective, part of Japan's Hakuhodo DY Holdings. Remy describes Q as a "fantastic organization" and emphasizes the symbiotic relationships within the collective, enabling Kepler to collaborate with other innovative firms like Sid Lee and SY Partners (15:42). This integration allows Kepler to leverage shared intelligence and resources while maintaining its independent operational ethos, fostering an environment of mutual growth and strategic collaboration.

Industry Trends and Market Dynamics

Allison brings up the significant proposed acquisition between Omnicom and IPG, aiming to form the largest advertising company globally. Remy shares his perspective on this consolidation, noting both challenges and opportunities for smaller agencies like Kepler. He observes, “When you have strength like that in the marketplace, it just creates opportunity for all the rest of us to innovate even faster” (19:44). Remy believes that such mergers push smaller agencies to differentiate themselves through stronger client relationships and innovative offerings, ultimately benefiting the broader market landscape.

Principle-Based Media Buying

A substantial portion of the episode addresses principle-based media buying, especially in the context of the Omnicom-IPG deal. Allison inquires about client concerns regarding this practice and whether Kepler engages in it. Remy clarifies, “Kepler does not participate in principle-based media buying” (24:03), emphasizing their focus on audience-targeted strategies. He underscores Kepler’s commitment to transparency and tailored solutions, ensuring that media buying aligns with clients' specific goals rather than adhering to broad principles that may not offer tangible value.

AI in Media Buying

The conversation then explores the integration of AI into media buying processes. Allison asks Remy about Kepler’s practical use of AI to enhance productivity without unnecessary complexity. Remy highlights three key areas where AI is making a substantial impact:

1. Creative Production: Kepler Creative leverages AI to facilitate rapid iteration of creative assets, addressing the demand for diverse formats across platforms. “Kepler Creative is our response to that and we've seen really great reception from the clients and the market” (29:50).

2. Tech and Analytics: Utilizing natural language processing, Kepler has developed tools that allow for more intuitive data analysis. Remy explains, “Using natural language, it’s really easy. So we’ve built a tool on top of Kip, our tech stack, where we can do just that” (29:50).

3. Workflow Optimization: AI enhances daily operations, making processes like audience planning and media buying more efficient. Remy notes, “We’re really focused on how we responsibly use AI and in a client approved, transparent way” (29:50).

Responsible AI Use Policies

Allison emphasizes the importance of ethical AI usage, prompting Remy to discuss Kepler’s approach. Remy reiterates the centrality of transparency, stating, “Transparency is obviously the most important thing” (33:37). Kepler has established core principles to ensure that AI augments rather than replaces human creativity and decision-making. They have formed dedicated teams that include legal, business, and technical experts to oversee AI ethics compliance and engage clients in developing robust AI governance frameworks.

Future of Media Planning and Buying

Looking ahead, Remy envisions a media planning landscape deeply intertwined with AI, enhancing efficiency and strategic depth. He confidently states, “AI will not replace those roles [media planners], but it is important for people to understand AI in order to not become irrelevant” (38:37). Remy anticipates that AI will automate manual tasks, allowing media professionals to focus more on strategic initiatives and creative insights. He emphasizes the importance of developing unique value propositions and leveraging AI tools to maintain a competitive edge.

Mergers and Acquisitions (M&A) Activity

In discussing M&A trends for 2025, Remy reflects on Kepler’s strategic acquisitions, such as Infectious Media in 2020 and Napkin in 2021. He outlines the company’s focus on expanding geographical coverage and enhancing complementary skill sets. “We’re always keeping an eye towards what we need to do and develop next” (41:54). Remy hints at the potential for future acquisitions that align with Kepler’s growth objectives, though he maintains confidentiality regarding specific targets.

Conclusion

The episode closes with Allison and Remy underscoring the significance of adaptability and strategic foresight for smaller agencies in a dynamic ad tech environment. Remy affirms Kepler’s commitment to innovation, transparency, and client-centric strategies as key drivers of their sustained success and resilience amidst industry consolidation and technological advancements. The conversation offers valuable insights for brand marketers, ad agencies, and media technology providers navigating the complexities of today’s advertising landscape.

Notable Quotes

• Remy Stiles (02:36): “We actually hold sort of a fake record for the fastest time with three women on the team.”
• Remy Stiles (08:45): “We are a full service media agency, essentially running pretty much all paid channels and everything from strategy through execution through analytics.”
• Remy Stiles (15:42): “Q is a fantastic organization... we have the privilege of tapping into the intelligence of the network, pulling each other in for thought leadership, collaborating on projects.”
• Remy Stiles (19:44): “When you have strength like that in the marketplace, it just creates opportunity for all the rest of us to innovate even faster.”
• Remy Stiles (24:03): “Kepler does not participate in principle-based media buying.”
• Remy Stiles (29:50): “Kepler Creative is our response to that and we've seen really great reception from the clients and the market.”
• Remy Stiles (33:37): “Transparency is obviously the most important thing.”
• Remy Stiles (38:37): “AI will not replace those roles [media planners], but it is important for people to understand AI in order to not become irrelevant.”
• Remy Stiles (41:54): “We’re always keeping an eye towards what we need to do and develop next.”

This comprehensive summary encapsulates the key discussions and insights from the episode, providing a clear understanding of the challenges and strategic responses of smaller agencies like Kepler in the evolving advertising and media landscape.

Transcript

[Remy Stiles]

Foreign.

[Allison Schiff]

Welcome to Ad Exchanger Talks, the podcast devoted to examining the issues and trends in advertising and marketing technology that matter most to you. I'm Allison Schiff and you're listening to Ad Exchanger Talks. Regards from my apartment in Astoria, Queens. I checked my weather app just before recording this and it's apparently 15 degrees outside with a real feel of 11. So it's cold outside depending on where you are in the world. And I know it's colder in other places, but I've got some hot topics to talk about this week with my guest, Remy Stiles, Kepler's CEO for North America. We'll muse on the Omnicom IPG acquisition principle based buying what it's like to be a smaller agency competing with the big holdcos and AI of course. But first, please save the date for CTV Connect taking place March 12th and 13th in New York City. And hey, don't just save the date, snag yourself a ticket. This is a can't miss summit on all the key issues and opportunities in Connected TV. Learn more and [e-mail] hey Remy, welcome to the podcast.

[Remy Stiles]

Hi Alison. Thank you for having me.

[Allison Schiff]

All right, what is your one thing? What is one thing about you that not a lot of other people already know?

[Remy Stiles]

I love that you always start with this question. Well, you probably know this Allison, but we haven't discussed yet that we both went to Brandeis University for. I was gonna bring that up, yes. Sorry if I'm, I'm jumping ahead on that but I, I'm very excited about that. We don't, I don't find run into too many Brandeis people but I ran track at Brandeis all four years, was captain of the track team. It's very exciting but relating sort of that personal passion to work. We have quite a lot of runners at Kepler and we have run a number of times in the Penn Relays corporate distance medley relay. So if you're not a track fan like I am, the Penn Relays is the biggest relay carnival and they have a corporate distance medley relay at the end of Friday night's event and we've run in it a number of times and we actually hold sort a fake record for the fastest time with three women on the team. So I'm very proud of that.

[Allison Schiff]

I ran track in high school but if I run for the subway now I'm out of breath.

[Remy Stiles]

I find I'm more out of breath running for the subway than I am when I actually go on a run.

[Allison Schiff]

So I, I was going to Bring up Brandeis, because I noticed that. Well, as a fellow Brandesian.

[Remy Stiles]

Yes.

[Allison Schiff]

You know, Go, go, Ollie. The owl judges.

[Remy Stiles]

Yep, the judges.

[Allison Schiff]

Thank you. Because I actually forgot the name of our sports team for a second. I studied English and history and came away with important skills like the ability to recite the first seven lines of the general prologue of the Canterbury Tales in Middle English, and there's not a lot of that. But you studied psychology and business, and I imagine those things have been a little more useful to your career, but especially the subject of psychology, because as the CEO of an agency, you have to manage the agency client relationship. And there have been acres of column inches dedicated to the challenges there, their transparency issues or conflicts of interest or financial pressures. And when it's good, it's good. And when there's tension, there's tension. Right. I mean, it's humans interacting. But what is the secret to a good, healthy, open agency client relationship?

[Remy Stiles]

Yeah, that's a great question. And we always say at the end of the day, we're in a relationship business. So that is absolutely critical to be able to understand people and what makes them tick and what's important to them. And during the COVID years especially, that was. That was kind of tricky because you were trying to do that all virtually. I think we've always found that being able to build those relationships in person is really important. I think being able to even just read people's faces and understand how they're feeling about different topics. And sharing, you know, the what's keeping them up at night and Simulus Hallway small talk gives us a lot of insight into what's happening within their organization, the pressures that they're under, the things that, you know, again, are keeping them up at night. And so I think it's really about just having that time, building that relationship. And honestly, both personally and professionally, understanding, you know, just everyone as a. As a full human being is really important. So we try to have really open dialogue and communication with our clients, obviously on the phone and virtually, and get in person together as much as we can. And really, you know, we're always strapped, driving to be their partner. I mean, in a lot of cases, we're sort of media aor, if that. If that term is still used. But we really want to understand the broader business goals and what's really happening, you know, more broadly in the organization, so that we can really dock in as a strategic partner, really, across the entire business.

[Allison Schiff]

Let's take a step back, though, and talk about Kepler. So a fun fact for listeners who might not know or might not recall. Kepler spun out of media math in 2012 to be an independent agency and you were an account manager. I noticed, noticed at media math in 2010, 2011. And then the spin off happened and you moved to Kepler and then up and up and up through the ranks to become North America CEO of the whole shebang. People, they hop around so often in their careers, but you stayed on this trajectory at one company and I've done the same. I've been at Ad Exchanger for more than a decade and I, I really, I, I'm kind of proud of it because you, you build relationships over time that you can really stick with and yeah, why did you put your stake in the ground at Kepler?

[Remy Stiles]

The answer I always give is the people. I wouldn't be here 12 and a half years later if I didn't have both. An amazing founding team, most of which are still with Kepler and early and subsequent hires. We're now an over 600 person global organization, but our people are the heart of the company and I think we just have some of the smartest minds in the business and, and just good human beings. I think we all really share an important core set of values that we founded the company on around, you know, transparency and growth, mindset, always looking to grow and do better around, you know, pushing innovation forward and, and being curious. That's a value we hold really dear at Kepler, which is around, you know, constant education and curiosity and understanding the why. And I think when you have shared values amongst, you know, an increasing number of people, that's really special. And I don't take that for granted. And I think the fact that I get to work with people at all levels in the organization that are smarter than me on topics and help educate me and share learnings and insights, I mean that's just, that's a pretty, that's a pretty amazing thing. So that's why I'm here 12 and a half years later. And you know, we have obviously fantastic client partners as well and we're, we're really proud of the work we do. So it's, it's easy to stay.

[Allison Schiff]

Curiosity is also such, such an important part of a journalist's job. You have to keep asking questions and know how to ask the right question and you have to follow up and follow up and follow up again and try not to be annoying while you're doing it, but without curiosity. You'd just be like a stenographer.

[Remy Stiles]

Yeah. I always tell new hires we lead a Intro to Kepler session for everybody that joins the company. And when I get the chance, I like to lead that session. And I always tell people that I had a client once say to me that the sign of high intelligence is being able to ask good questions. And we are really a culture of encouraging question asking, no dumb questions. If you have to ask it three times, that's okay because you're doing yourself no favors by pretending you know something that you don't know. And really understanding the why behind it, I think is just super, super important. So we are, we are big on curiosity and question asking.

[Allison Schiff]

Well, let's do a little intro to Kepler session now. A truncated version. You guys, you describe yourselves as a global agency built for the digital world and I'm grabbing this from the website. A guiding light ensuring a future that's sharply in focus for our clients and that is more than okay language for marketing copy. It's very colorful, but we are in a jargon free zone now. So yeah, without any flowery language, just the facts. Give me the quick intro to Kepler. What your services are, who you serve and basically why you exist.

[Remy Stiles]

Yeah, yeah. So as, as you mentioned, Alison, the founding team all came from Media Math and I think Media Math, for those who don't know, was one of the first demand side platforms back when with.

[Allison Schiff]

Those who don't know what podcast you're on, Remy.

[Remy Stiles]

But, but back in, in the days programmatic and real time bidding was, was all the new buzz. You know, we had a pretty good view for Media Math into what was happening in the agency landscape and I think we saw white space for an agency to start. You know, in the early days of Kepler, we called ourselves a new breed of agency, but we were really trying to solve a need that we saw, which was an agency that was rooted in ad tech and programmatic and real time bidding and you know, really understood that space. But also we all had experience in brand management and consulting and prior agencies where we also really talk marketing strategy and principles with the cmo. And it was really bringing all those worlds together that was sort of the impetus for Kepler. So we've always been deeply rooted in tech and data and innovation and sort of pushing forward on the industry. And so that's a lot of who we are at our core. And in the early days that was a lot of programmatic. As you noted, At 12 and a half years later, we are a full service media agency, essentially running pretty much all paid channels and everything from strategy through execution through analytics. We're still really proud that we do quite a Lot of hands on keyboard, as we all call it, management in house. And transparency is still at our core and all of those things. But I think it's been an interesting journey in terms of what innovation and staying cutting edge means. And I think we feel like our skill set in the age of AI and all the other changes that are happening is just the next wave of what twelve and a half years ago was programmatic is now this sort of new opportunity in frontier for us to be thinking about and pushing forward on. So that's always been our core DNA and that's why our guiding principle and sort of tagline that you, I'm sure saw on our website is future in focus.

[Allison Schiff]

So hands on keyboard. How much do your clients want to put their own hands on the keyboard? Because you remember how people used to talk and talk and talk about the in housing trend all the time and then there was this, it was like a reverse when a lot of brands said, yeah, never mind, this is a lot of work, I'm going to give some of it back. So how, how much is in housing still a thing?

[Remy Stiles]

It's an interesting question. I think we see it going both ways. There are certainly still brands that are trying to in house and I think we have created quite a few opportunities or partnerships, I should say around consulting those, those brands and those partners on how to do that. Because that, you know, that is an expertise that we have. So we can you do everything from recruiting to training in house to building out Playbooks. But then one trend that I think we're seeing in that space for brands that have in house or want to in house is they do recognize that the value of an agency partner is the ability to understand what's happening more broadly in the space across a range of clients. Have your finger on the pulse of all the changes happening in the industry, what best practices look like, you know, what works and what doesn't because you're running however many dozens of different campaigns. And so we've seen an increase in client wanting to have a partner stay on as sort of an innovation and strategy layer on top of their in house team. So it's not a full hands on keyboard, you know, agency, but you know, still sort of recognizing the value, the strategic value that an agency partner can bring. And then we've also seen the opposite. We've seen brands that went in house and have said, you know, as you noted, actually this isn't, this model isn't working and you know, I want to bring an agency back in. So I think you know, it sort of is, is brand by brand and I think you know, depending on the investments that they can make and the type of talent they can get and all of those things which you know, we obviously know can be challenging.

[Allison Schiff]

I do think that brands are hiring really smart programmatic people but that it doesn't always translate into an in housing project. It's someone who's thinking about how to be very strategic when it comes to programmatic.

[Remy Stiles]

Yes, for sure, for sure. I think you know there are lots of internal experts at what we do and you know, of course as you know, not even programmat programmatics but just as digital or tech driven, data driven, buying, whatever you want to call it is more and more of brands budgets, you know, even for really large brands I think they, they recognize the need to have that internal stakeholder who really deeply understands it and you know, not to be solely reliable reliant on their, on their agency partner but have that expertise in house as well to be able to share insights with leadership or whatever it might be. So you know, we're certainly seeing a lot of expertise in house at the client side even if they're not a fully in house group. But then you know, as I mentioned I think certainly some brands are still in housing, some brands are reversing that trend and some brands, you know a number have a hybrid model where you know, they have sort of a quasi in house team but an either an embedded agency partner which you know, we do in some cases where we're essentially sitting, you know, side by side with clients as part of their marketing team managing, you know, media for them.

[Allison Schiff]

How typical is that? Someone sent off to sit beside a brand partner and help them one on one. In that way we see a decent.

[Remy Stiles]

Amount of it, you know, and it sort of ebbs and flows. I think sometimes it's augmented workforce sort of plug in needs that, that folks have brands have and, but there, you know there are a number of clients that sort of have a fairly robust in house team but do need sort of supplemental support and expertise. Either you know, a tactical perspective or like I mentioned, a strategic perspective. So I wouldn't say it's incredibly common but we definitely, you know, have a couple of relationships that look like that.

[Allison Schiff]

Fast forward about five or six years after the spinoff from Media Math, Kepler Group was acquired by. Is it Kyu Q like the letter?

[Remy Stiles]

It's pronounced Q.

[Allison Schiff]

Okay, yeah, I had a feeling. Which is a collective of marketing consulting and design companies owned by Hakuhodo DY holdings, which is one of Japan's largest, largest marketing holding companies. And the way I understand it, you operate as an independent entity under Q, but that Q's other companies can use Kepler's technology. You have a proprietary audience and workflow and decisioning tool called Kepler Intelligence Platform. It automates programmatic campaign related stuff creation and optimization. So that's now available across Q's universe. Is that how it works? Like what's the setup today? How do you operate inside a larger organization?

[Remy Stiles]

Q is a fantastic organization. The full name is the Q Collective and I think that really best describes it. So Q is a collective of really amazing intellectual companies that sort of span marketing, marketing adjacent consulting, adjacent functions. So we have the privilege of sitting alongside companies like ido, which is a famous innovation and design firm, and SY Partners and Sid Le and a number of really amazing firms. But I like the word collective because I think we really all operate as symbiotic partners and so we have the benefit of tapping into the intelligence of the network, pulling each other in for thought leadership, collaborating on projects. But there's no sort of forcing mechanism, if you will, to you know, top down mandate that, you know, type of relationship. And we also, recently you may have seen some press around it. Q Pulse is sort of the advertising side of, of the Q Group. So you know, Kepler and Sid Lee and bim, which does a lot of CRM and email work. And so we are all working much more closely together to create integrated relationships, you know, for, for the clients and brands that we work with and really being able to have more of an end to end model to support those brands and really help them grow, you know, across all of their marketing needs.

[Allison Schiff]

So I know Kepler isn't an indie agency because as we were just talking about, you were acquired by Q. But I still think of you guys a little bit in that bucket because you have to battle for business with these absolutely enormous agency holding companies. Is that how you think of it or how do you think of it and how do you differentiate yourself?

[Remy Stiles]

Yes, we, we, we still like the independent agency branding and I think it's true in a lot of ways. I mean we are vastly different in how we operate than, than the holding companies. But you're right that we are, we are going toe to toe with the holding companies in, you know, pretty much all the, all the pitches and client opportunities that we have. But we, you know, I think we, we, we proudly hold independent status I think in our approach and I mentioned some of this before, but I think our ability to, we're a 600 person firm now, 600 person plus. But we still act, we still have a lot of our, in a good way, sort of startup DNA. Right. We're nimble, we're fast, we're flexible. We don't have layers and layers and layers of approvals that we have to go through to get things done. If we have an idea, we run with it. We work really transparently with our clients in all senses, not just from a fee and model perspective, but in what we're doing. And we have clients that log into platforms and look at our setups for different things. And I think that spirit is very aligned with the independent agency spirit and I think to us is just incredibly important in how we operate with our clients.

[Allison Schiff]

Well, on the other end of the spectrum, I'm not sure if you heard about this, there's this company called Omnicom and it's merging with this other company called ipg.

[Remy Stiles]

Heard of it?

[Allison Schiff]

A little proposed combination of massive mega ad hold cos into what will be the largest advertising company in the world if it passes regulatory approvals. Just FYI though, I don't know if you know this, this is legit. I was corrected by someone at Omnicom that this is an acquisition and not a mer. So there's a distinction.

[Remy Stiles]

I did see that. Yep.

[Allison Schiff]

Anyway, what, what's your take on this deal and how does it change the market dynamics for a smaller agency like Kepler? I know you're more than 600 people and it's a small but mighty kind of thing, but the Omnicom IPG mega combo is going to be like a yo yo dine, you know?

[Remy Stiles]

Yep, yep. Yeah, I mean, it's really interesting. There's obviously, you know, a lot of consolidation talk broadly across the industry. This is obviously one of the biggest ones ever. And you know, there's, there, there's the obvious advantages for Omnicom and IPG and, and for their clients, you know, they'll, they'll have a lot of cost power and strategic brain power, which, you know, I, I think is certainly a pro of the deal, but I think there's, you know, it also creates opportunities for the rest of us. I think when you have strength like that in the marketplace, it just, it, it creates opportunity for all the rest of us to innovate even faster, be even stronger in our differentiating value props in the marketplace to forge even stronger client relationships and you know, really just continue to, to innovate and, and push forward. And so I, you know, we view that as an opportunity And I think it's kind of exciting. And I also think that, you know, a lot of the, the conversation is really around the really, really, you know, sort of large fortune. I think for the smaller independent agencies, there's an interesting opportunity for some, you know, some of their, what is big to us and small to them, you know, sort of mid sized clients who might want, you know, a more high touch client agency relationship and might want to be sort of a bigger fish in a smaller pond. I don't always like using that phrase, but you know, and, and having a model that's a little bit more flexible and nimble because, you know, with, with all of the pros of the merger, it's going, you know, quite a large organization. So, you know, you can make assumptions about how fast things will be able to get done or whatnot. So I think there's a lot of opportunity for the rest of us. But it is going to challenge us, right, to continue to just, to just push forward, particularly on the, on a tech side and an innovation perspective.

[Allison Schiff]

And they're going to have to spend a lot of time and a lot of money and their focus will be on integrating. So you're not really innovating when you're integrating.

[Remy Stiles]

That is, that is potentially true. So again, I think, you know, we can, we can be sure that we are and getting our story out there and I think, you know, that's, that's on us to make sure that we are pushing forward our tech, which, you know, at Kepler we always are, and getting that story out there, sharing it with the marketplace, having a, you know, a tight story in pitches that explains our value prop to the market. So, you know, again, to us, that's exciting.

[Allison Schiff]

We're going to take a quick break now and when we're back, we're going to talk about a topic that's been getting a lot of attention. It's been quite controversial, Principle based media buying. And we'll get into a few takeaways from CES, even though it's now February and CES feels like 8 million years ago. So stick with us. All right, we're back and let's talk about principle based media buying, which is something that comes up a lot when people talk about the Omnicom IPG deal. Because Omnicom has a framework for principal media, they're very public about engaging in that practice. So if the deal closes, I'd imagine that a large portion of IPG's dollars will transition to Omnicom's solutions for principle based media buying. And it would mainstream that practice if the largest agency holding company in the world is in favor of it. And if you talk to people from Omnicom, they'll say there's nothing wrong with principle based media so long as clients opt into it and the process is transparent and it's actually providing some value to those clients. Because, yeah, there's scale and, and yeah, those are the three arguments in favor. And there are many arguments to the contrary that we've talked about on this podcast multiple times. But are your clients concerned about principle based media buying? And is that something that you are able to do? I mean, part of the ability to do it comes from being absolutely massive.

[Remy Stiles]

Our clients are not worried about it. Kepler does not participate in principle based media buying. I think the realities of, of, you know, our belief and how we work with our clients is, you know, primarily audience targeted. Right. We're always thinking about the, how we're reaching their key consumer in the right time, in the right place. And I think, you know, for certain brands that have, that are, you know, the top Fortune 500 brands that have, that are more of a mass play and certainly a reach and frequency component, you know, transparent principle based media buying, you know, can be interesting, but I think there's a lot of pieces of it that you need to be sure are transparent. And you know, like I said before, transparency is at the core of everything that we do at Kepler. There's both the transparency that you're doing it, you know, really understanding what the cost structures are really understanding, you know, where you're running, what, you know, audience or data targeting overlay is happening. And so I think there's just a lot of components to it. So, you know, I think, Allison, the short answer to your question for us is, you know, our clients are not, not particularly worried about it right now, but it is obviously a hot topic in the industry that we'll see how it continues to evolve, particularly with this Omnicom IPG merger and continuing to have that strength in the space.

[Allison Schiff]

So if principle based media buying is not keeping your clients up at night, what is keeping them up at night or actually keeping you up at night? Because your goal is probably to make sure that your clients sleep well.

[Remy Stiles]

Yep. Yep. This is actually a really big theme that we heard at CES as well, but something we've been talking to our, our clients, you know, about often, but someone at CES called the role of the CMO the Change Management Officer. And I think that's, that's a lot of what we hear from our senior clients and CMOs specifically is there's just so much change happening. I mean of course there's AI, AI, AI. But also, you know, organizations are evolving and they're changing and they're morphing their structures and they' you know, working to think about their marketing funnel and you know, at a retailer they're thinking about how does my brand media work with my performance media work with my retail media networks. And there's just so much happening in the space, realigning teams. You know, we talked before around, you know, in housing and what roles do I want in house versus what do I want from an external partner. And so change management is I think really at the core of a lot of our clients jobs and what keeps them up at night. And so you know, where a couple of years ago is a lot around, you know, media tactics and programs and roi, like yes, of course we're still talking about those things but I don't think for the vast majority of our clients that's what's keeping them up at night. It's really the broader changes ensuring they're setting their organizations up for success and sort of future proofing for what the next few years are going to look like, making sure they're staying on top of those trends and educating themselves. We're doing a lot of education sessions broadly at organizations. We'll come in and do lunch and learns on, you know, a whole range of topics from AI to how social media works to influencer strategy to whatever it might be to really be sure. Everyone feels like they know how the space is evolving and what they need to do to keep up. I know it's sort of a broad answer, but change management I think is really at the core of a lot of our clients concerns or opportunities right now.

[Allison Schiff]

When you meet with clients at ces, there's probably this vibe of we're at the beginning of something fresh. It's a new year, you know, let's talk big, big ideas are flying around. But then what happens after? Like how productive are those meetings? Do they lead to action or does it end up being like when I make a to do list and there's something that's more like strategy related and not so tactical. I keep having to write that same item on a new to do list every week because I never get to it because it seem like, I don't know, not easy to achieve.

[Remy Stiles]

Yep. I think a lot of CES is about, you know, back to the topic of relationship building. I think, you know, you always meet a New interesting brand partner agency friend, you know, whoever it might be. So I think a lot of the, a lot of the follow ups are around, you know, continuing those relationships, continuing those conversations, you know, oh, we had an interesting conversation about this new idea. How do we actually, you know, move that forward for us? I think we left with a couple of really interesting conversations. One of the benefits of going to an event like CES is you meet some smaller partners that you've never heard of before and have some really interesting use cases that, you know, we can plug into our business and you know, on behalf of our clients. And so I think we, you know, we're excited about some of, of those conversations that, you know, again, back to the relationship building and having in person face to face time. It's, it's helped helpful to be able to have those conversations face to face and think about some of the opportunities and, you know, some of the partners that, that we can work with this year.

[Allison Schiff]

And one of the biggest topics at ces, which is zero surprise AI, AI powered everything. But I don't know, AI powered stuff that doesn't necessarily need to be AI powered in a lot of cases. But how do you guys use AI in a practical way to support media buying for, well, creative, I guess at Q for workflow, how do you use it to be not flashy, but more productive and just enhance what you're doing for clients, which I think is better than an AI generated Coca Cola ad.

[Remy Stiles]

It was all the topic of ces, as you can imagine. And I think a lot of the AI conversations we're having right now is exactly what you just said, Allison. How do you really cut through the noise and, and be practical about what the applications are and how we're using it already, how we can continue to use it, what it looks like for our teams and for our clients teams? And I think for us, the way there's a couple of very practical ways that I think we're thinking about it today and have already made some pretty exciting progress on. And then obviously we have a whole bunch of workflows and work streams happening into 2025. But the couple of practical ways you noted are one, I think around creative, two, around tech and analytics, and then three, around workflows. So from creative perspective, you may have seen, we, we launched Kepler Creative this year, which is powered by AI and really answering a pain point and a need that we saw in a lot of our clients around sort of rapid cycle, fast creative iteration. It's easy to have a, you know, a brand campaign that, you know, you spend a bunch of time and research doing. It's beautiful. It's, you know, everybody loves it. But then how do you create, you know, the 15 different versions that you need for an Instagram story versus the display ad vers versus search copy? And how do you get it quickly into all of those different formats and without breaking the bank? So Kepler Creative is our response to that and we've seen really great reception from the clients and the market. The second, obviously around sort of tech and analytics, but a practical example I'll give that we are doing today and continuing to innovate on is around how to use natural language to analyze your data. So, you know, as opposed to having lots and lots of dashboards which, you know, show you your performance from the day before, or, you know, help you prep for a QBR, or you're on a client status call and a client says, you know, which creative performed best last week in Meta? You know, it's easy enough in a dashboard to find that information or, you know, export it to Excel and pivot your table, but using natural language, it's really easy. So we've built a tool on top of Kip, our tech stack, where we can do just that. And it makes it really easy both for our teams and for our clients to find those answers and the insights, you know, much faster, much, much more easily. And then the third you noted around workflow, I think, you know, that could be a whole other podcast, but there's obviously a ton happening and just, you know, everyday ways of working, everything from audience planning, media buying and, you know, client status reports, you know, whatever it might be, just how we do what we do better and faster and more efficiently. And I think we're really focused on how we responsibly use AI and in a client approved, transparent way, but take tasks that, you know, would otherwise take a long time and make them, you know, quicker and easier and simpler to do.

[Allison Schiff]

So you brought up being responsible. And yes, that is a very, very important word because of any business or agency, whatever you are, if you're use AI and integrate it into the work you do, you need an AI use policy, governance, ethical guidelines, a framework for risk assessments. It's very, very important stuff and it has to be decided at the beginning. So what do you guys put into your ethical AI use policy? What was the process for getting it set? And as a third part to the question, what do clients ask you about how their data is used? Because that's a really big question that comes up in Terms of the ethical use of AI.

[Remy Stiles]

I'm going to keep saying transparency, but transparency is obviously the most important thing and being clear about how it's being used and where it's being used and what tools we're using and all of that. So I mean that's again, that's sort of step one, that's at the core of everything. But what we've done is first establish core principles, really ensuring that AI enhances rather than replaces human thinking, creativity, et cetera. And again, we're really open with clients about the use of AI in content creation from, you know, what I was mentioning, from a creative perspective, you know, where it's being used, you know, across our workflows, etc. And then we've assigned a dedicated team internally at Kepler, both, you know, of course combining the legal group, but with, you know, sort of the business side and folks that are hearing from the clients science and you know, experiencing the questions and then of course with our tech team as well who are actually developing some of the tools to oversee AI ethics compliance and people, you know, really thinking about how we're using it today and then how we're continuing to advance it. And we've even talked to a number of clients about helping them set that up internally as well, being part of their AI ethics teams, inviting clients to ours as thought leaders to help us think about, you know, the future state and, and the tools and TEC that we are building. So it's an evolving process for obvious reasons, it's all changing so quickly. But again, I think really understanding how we're using it and being transparent about it is at the core of how we are approaching it.

[Allison Schiff]

Are there any AI tools that you use personally just to make your own life easier?

[Remy Stiles]

Yeah, for sure. Well, we've built Kipai internally, which is sort of a safeguarded LLM model which doesn't share out data elsewhere. So we've trained, you know, our teams to use that internally even for asking, you know, basic questions around, you know, day to day tasks. Just because it sits within our environment and doesn't get shared back into any potential public models. But for even my personal use, I mean, I'll, I'll give a live example. I've had to sort of start to retrain myself to not just navigate to Google search when I have a question and I've really started to try to use Gemini or ChatGPT or perplexity to answer questions that I've had and I've found, found it to be really interesting as I'VE tried to be more conscious of my own user behavior even in the past couple of weeks. I had an example the other day where I was looking for restaurants for a weekend away that we're doing. And you know, my first instinct was to go to Google Search. But then when I went to Gemini and put the same question in, I got a much more interesting answer because it gave me the same sort of summary but with user reviews and with hours and with recommendations based on, you know, I said, you know, I like Infatuation, which is a food guide that I follow. So I said what does Infatuation think? And then it gave me their whole summary. So I think it's, it, it's just a, it's a consumer behavior that shift that, you know, I think we all are still somewhat conscious of and I have to remind myself to use the tools and think about how I'm, how I'm embedding it into my day to day life. But it's really fascinating when you do.

[Allison Schiff]

I've started using Perplexity also so but for research into things that I know the answer to. So I'm just trying to get a better summary of information that I can get from reading like 14 different blogs from 14 different ad tech companies. So it's cut down on my research time, but I find it really useful for stuff I already know. If I don't know it, if I don't know that the information it's giving me is correct, then I feel a little weird using it because, because I need to corroborate everything that I put into a story.

[Remy Stiles]

I think that's a great point. And you know, you have to still be careful of what AI is telling you. I like in a lot of the models how it gives you links out to the sources that it found for you. And I find that I do still, you know, especially for topics more serious than restaurant reviews, click out to those sources to make sure that they are, are valid and that I'm, I'm doing some of the research, you know, on my own as well. But I do find it very helpful for summarizing information or sort of giving, you know, tidbits. Right. If there was an earnings call from a client, I found it really helpful to summarize the earnings call or you know, things, things like that that I think it gives you sort of the quick executive summary.

[Allison Schiff]

When I did a perplexity search recently for some information about principle based media buying, one of the source articles was Ad Exchanger. I saw our little logo in the Top right corner. So what will media planning and buying look like in five years, which might as well be a million years from now, considering how AI is changing the marketing business so rapidly?

[Remy Stiles]

You know, it's always hard to predict what the future is going to look like in five years in this industry. But I think, I think we know a few things for certain. I think there will be a lot of manual what, what still today are, you know, somewhat manual tasks that will be automated by AI. I think, you know, a lot of conversation in the industry, I mean, even at Cannes this summer was around, is AI going to replace the role of, you know, a media planner, for example? And I think, personally I think that AI will not replace those roles. But it is important for people to understand AI in order to not become irrelevant. I think back to our last question. It will be critical to understand, understand how to use AI and what the tools enable us to do from a process perspective to be faster, smarter and more efficient in all the work that we do. And so I think the job of the media planner and buyer is going to, is going to shift and evolve. It's going to become more strategic. I think, you know, we often call it sort of neck up thinking. I think there's going to be a lot more of that. I think client partnerships are going to continue to evolve at all levels into more, more strategy. And then I think we're all going to have to think about what our secret sauce is. Right. Like the AI tools already can give you a media plan, but how do you make sure, you know, you can't take what, what a chatgpt is giving you right now and go turn it around to a client? And so what, you know, what is the secret sauce that we have? How do you take a starting point that AI is going to give you that's going to be okay, but fairly generic. And how do we build our own, own processes and prompt engineering and data sets and whatnot to enhance and you know, make it our own? So I think, you know, it'll, it'll look the same in a lot of ways, in the same way that we are strategically thinking about how to plan and buy for our clients today. But it'll be AI powered, no doubt, and there will be a component of efficiency that exists that doesn't, you know, we're starting to exist today. But, but again, exactly what that looks like seems to be changing every day quite rapidly.

[Allison Schiff]

So we're nearly out of time. And I do want to ask you about m and a 2025 is already shaping up to be way more active on the M and A front than last year. Definitely more active than 2023, which was in the total doldrums. But a bunch of ad tech deals happen right at the start of the year and the buzz is that we're going to see more agents, agency consolidation triggered by Omnicom ipg. And you guys have done a little M and A yourself in the past. It's been a little while. You acquired a programmatic agency called Infectious Media that was in 2020 and then the year after that you bought this digital analytics and engineering consultancy called Napkin with a Y. So I'm not, I'm not so naive as to think you're going to spill me a tip about what you're buying next on this podcast, but give me a little insight into what you would look for if you were looking for something. And yeah, maybe let us know if you are looking for something.

[Remy Stiles]

I think, you know, I think our, our history sort of shows where our focus is from an M and A perspective. I think, you know, we're always thinking about our, our geographical coverage. You know, you noted Q and Hakahodo dy. So we, you know, we have great partnership and you know, sort of global coverage from them with, in partnership with them, particularly from an APAC persp. But you know, when we think about M and A, we're sometimes thinking about global and you know, sort of the regional footprint or, and you know, and, and echoed by the, the acquisition of Napkin. I think sometimes we are looking for complimentary skill sets or, or capabilities that, you know, we, we don't have today. And so I think, you know, especially in our per, our discussion around how quickly evolving this space is, I think, you know, we're always keeping an eye towards what we need to do and develop next and having the conversation of build first buy.

[Allison Schiff]

Remy, if you buy something, let us know in advance, please. We will cover it.

[Remy Stiles]

Happy, happy to give you the tip.