AdExchanger Talks: Why Media Quality Should Be The Center Of Attention

Host: Allison Schiff | Guest: Mark Guldeman, CEO and Founder of Adelaide
October 7, 2025

Episode Overview

This episode centers on the increasingly urgent need for the advertising industry to focus on media quality, moving away from outdated proxy metrics like CPM, viewability, or video completion rate. Host Allison Schiff interviews Mark Guldeman, CEO and founder of Adelaide, about why attention-based measurement is a better proxy for quality, the pitfalls of transacting on outcomes, and how the industry can meaningfully shift incentives for both buyers and sellers.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Personal Backstory & Roots in Ad Tech Innovation

(03:40 - 09:09)

• Mark Guldeman's Journey: From early ventures like Enlighten (giving consumers control over their data) to the founding of Adelaide, with many pivots—including Sled, Parsec, and the Buck Hunter/Hodomatic idea.
• On Enlighten’s Challenge:

  “The incentives that are created around paying people for their data are really weird...you end up just creating incentives for the wrong kind of data and the wrong kind of audience.” (05:09, Mark)

• Full Circle: Adelaide’s acquisition of Reta, a company enabling users to share their data efficiently using GDPR, now informs Adelaide’s core algorithms.

2. The Problem With Transacting On Outcomes

(10:44 - 15:09)

• Mark’s Gas Station Analogy:

  “If you went to a gas station and they didn’t have gallons and octane…you would build an attribution system for your car…We do the same thing in advertising...” (09:14, Mark)

• Risks of Outcomes-Based Buying:
  Outsourcing control leads to a “race to the bottom,” misaligned incentives, privacy risks, and can turn marketers into mere fulfillment arms.
• On “Trading Outcomes”:

  “At a surface level, the idea of trading outcomes is really good, but once you go one or two levels down, the incentives…are not good.” (13:15, Mark)

3. Attention as a Quality Proxy—Not a Currency

(15:09 - 18:14)

• Why Attention Isn’t a Standalone Currency:

  “Attention, in its clinical definition…the amount of time…you choose to focus on something is NOT a good currency...You don’t want the creative that captures the most attention. That would just be puppies and kittens with no branding at all.” (15:47, Mark)

• Adelaide’s Model: Uses “AU”—the probability of attention, not just attentive seconds—as a placement quality measure.

  “We’re not trying to replace impressions with attention. We’re trying to replace viewability with a better proxy for quality.” (17:29, Mark)

• Key Incentive Shift: Moving the goal from “as many viewable impressions as possible” to “highest probability for attention.”

4. Why the Shift to Attention Takes Time

(19:22 - 21:11)

• Entrenched Incentives:

  “The entire supply chain, from the CMO down…is get those CPMs lower every year. So it takes a long time to unwind those incentives.” (19:44, Mark)

• Breakthroughs: Successes in agency incentive structures (e.g., with MediaSense and Halion using AU in contracts), shifting focus from lowest cost to best value.

5. Case Study: Financial Times & Attention Metrics

(21:11 - 24:53)

• Publishers like the FT embraced attention early and stood by it—even against buyer inertia.
• On Publisher Incentives:

  “You can’t really respect your audience and deliver against those metrics the advertisers want.” (23:05, Mark)

• Evolution:
  “In those 10 years, the attention space...evolved beyond just thinking about attention as duration into thinking about the probability of attention.” (24:53, Mark)

6. Standards, Arbitrage, and Market-Driven Metrics

(28:51 - 38:36)

• Limitations of Standards:

  “If the sell side of any market understands exactly how a metric is calculated, they will game it and then it won’t be as useful to the buy side.” (29:18, Mark)

• Market vs. Standardization:
  Carfax as an analogy for a buyer-driven, market-based quality metric that became a de facto standard.
• Advice for Industry Bodies: Standards are valuable for protocols/definitions, not for setting currencies.

7. The 'Lemon Market' and Quality Transparency

(40:05 – 41:47)

• Explaining the Lemon Market:

  “When there’s opacity in quality…buyers bid below 50% of the expected value...The used car lemon market in the US was fixed by Carfax.” (41:03, Mark)

• What’s Needed:
  Transparent, buyer-driven metrics so sellers have reason to provide (and can be paid for) high quality.

8. Lightning Round Highlights

(42:19 - 44:22)

• Open web: “Not dead at all” (42:22, Mark)
• Ad blockers: “No. That’s horrible.” (42:55, Mark)
• AI: “Tons of help…people that say it’s an auto completion tool…are missing the big picture.” (43:19, Mark)
• Most hated metric: “Viewability.” (43:31, Mark)
• State of programmatic: “Inefficient.” (44:20, Mark)

9. If You Could Change One Thing About Ad Tech History...

(44:22 - 46:51)

• Mark Would Rethink Brand Safety:

  “Brand safety has concentrated all spend on recipe sites and garbage like that...some of the highest, the best bargains in digital media is news content on premium publishers...the best value for verification data is just to fade it.” (45:52, Mark)

Notable Quotes

• “The incentives that are created around paying people for their data are really weird.” (05:09, Mark)
• “If you outsource that selling of the thing to somebody else, then you’re outsourcing your job.” (14:58, Mark)
• “Attention...is fundamentally necessary in order for advertising to work.” (16:39, Mark)
• “We’re not trying to replace impressions with attention. We’re trying to replace viewability with a better proxy for quality.” (17:29, Mark)
• “Metrics should be driven by the buy side. If buyers trust a metric...they’re going to use it no matter what anybody says.” (37:54, Mark)
• “Advertising is sort of a weird industry. It’s one of only three industries in the world where someone will spend $10 million and then say, 'I wonder what I got.' The other two are gambling and venture capital.” (33:20, Mark)
• “The used car lemon market in the US was fixed by Carfax...we’re trying to give the buy side transparency into quality so they can justify paying higher prices for higher quality things.” (41:03, Mark)

Timestamps for Key Segments

• 03:40 – Mark’s early startups and Enlighten’s journey
• 09:14 – The relationship between privacy, media quality, and incentives
• 11:42 – Why “trading outcomes” instead of optimizing for them is flawed
• 15:47 – Why attention isn’t a currency, but is the right quality measure
• 19:22 – Barriers to adoption: incentives, CPM, and change management
• 21:11 – Financial Times and publisher adoption of attention metrics
• 24:53 – Attention metrics: duration vs. probability
• 28:51 – On standards, market-driven currencies, and gaming metrics
• 40:05 – 'Lemon market' analogy and what’s needed for quality
• 42:19 – Lightning round
• 44:22 – The one thing Mark would change in ad tech history

Memorable Moments

• Dreadlocks & Fish Shows: The episode opens with a playful exchange on Mark’s past as a Phish superfan, setting a relaxed and candid tone.
• Gas Station Analogy: Used repeatedly to illustrate why advertising needs better, standardized measures of media “quality” (like octane/gallons in fuel).
• eBay/Jewelry Story: Allison’s mother’s “information asymmetry” in jewelry sales offers a relatable analogy for buyers’ advantage when quality is obscure (34:34, Allison).
• Brand Safety Reflection: Mark’s nuanced take on the rise of brand safety and its unintended consequences for premium news publishers is a stand-out segment.

Conclusion

Mark Guldeman and Allison Schiff’s conversation makes a sharp, entertaining case for putting media quality—measured by probability for attention—at the center of advertising decision-making. They argue it aligns incentives, justifies premium pricing for high-quality placements, and could help heal the industry’s trust, transparency, and privacy crises. But, as Guldeman notes, progress relies on realigning incentives and accepting quality as a buyer-driven measure—not a rigid, easily gamed standard.

For industry professionals or curious newcomers, this episode is a must-listen for understanding the future of media quality metrics and the push for a healthier ad ecosystem.