EP. 381: Diagnosing Everyone but Herself with Psychologist Dr. Shawn Horn

Summary

Podcast Summary:

ADHD for Smart Ass Women with Tracy Otsuka
Episode 381: Diagnosing Everyone but Herself with Psychologist Dr. Shawn Horn
Release Date: April 22, 2026
Guest: Dr. Shawn Horn, Licensed Clinical Psychologist, Author, Shame Expert

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Overview:

In this heartfelt and enlightening episode, host Tracy Otsuka welcomes Dr. Shawn Horn—“the shame busting psychologist”—to discuss her late ADHD diagnosis, the pervasive effects of shame in ADHD women’s lives, the social and neurological roots of these challenges, and how reframing one’s narrative leads to self-acceptance and empowerment. Dr. Horn shares her personal and professional journey, exploring the intersection between ADHD, shame, executive functioning, and self-worth, offering hope and validation for high-achieving women with ADHD.

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Main Discussion Points & Structure

1. Dr. Shawn Horn’s ADHD Diagnosis Journey

[05:15 – 24:17]

• Dr. Horn recounts her childhood: a sensitive, bold, “too much” child constantly criticized for her distractibility, talkativeness, and impulsivity.
• Vivid school memories: repeated comments on her report cards about poor attention, excessive socializing, and not finishing work.
• Early misdiagnoses: Placed in special education, labeled with cognitive deficits—her family and teachers overlooked her gifts.
• Family legacy: Generational neurodivergence unrecognized—her mother and grandmother also struggled in school.
• Executive functioning breakthrough: A community college intervention program taught her foundational skills, leading to academic success and eventually a doctorate.
• Internalized inferiority and imposter syndrome persisted despite clear evidence of intelligence and competence.
• “I was bold, I was brave and, and full of...such a big hearted child. I loved everything that lived. I mean, at 3, I was a tree hugger.” (Dr. Horn, 05:40)
• Achievements masked ADHD struggles: “What once felt like personal shortcomings began to make sense through the lens of neuroscience, regulation and connection.” (Tracy Otsuka, 03:26)

2. Social Experiences & Identity Formation

[16:43 – 23:03]

• Social confusion and loneliness: Despite being outgoing, Dr. Horn struggled with feeling “too much” and “unlikable.”
• Paradoxically, others viewed her as delightful and kind—her hypersensitivity and RSD (rejection sensitive dysphoria) colored her perceptions negatively.
• The “burden bearer”/empath experience: Absorbing others’ emotions, mistaking their insecurities for her own.
• “I call it being sticky-noted: Like saying, 'Hi, I'm Sean.' And they go, 'Hi,' Boom. Sticky note insecurity... and then I walk out with all these sticky notes and I'm like, I feel so terrible. What's wrong with me?” (Dr. Horn, 21:42)

3. The (Non-)Diagnosis and Realization Process

[24:17 – 44:20]

• Dr. Horn’s focus on achievement and reliability led her to dismiss ADHD symptoms, attributing difficulties to intelligence or effort.
• Only while pursuing her psychology license (and struggling to study) did a physician offer Ritalin, which helped immensely but did not prompt self-recognition of ADHD.
• Miscommunications with medical professionals led to feelings of humiliation and being stereotyped as a “drug seeker”—a common issue for women seeking ADHD diagnosis and treatment.
• “I did not think I was ADHD in any shape or form, surprisingly.” (Dr. Horn, 25:51)
• Eventually, a thorough developmental history and review of her school report cards led to official diagnosis and, finally, personal acknowledgement.

4. Gendered Experience of ADHD in Women

[35:31 – 41:09]

• ADHD in women is often misunderstood: Successful, high-achieving women are told they’re “too smart” to have ADHD.
• Symptoms manifest differently: impulsivity shows up as rapid thoughts and hyperactive conversation, not necessarily physical disruption.
• The societal preference for “fitting in,” and how female socialization exacerbates shame and imposter feelings.
• The importance of finding your “people” and building community to counteract chronic loneliness and shame.
• “You’re a unicorn in a donkey world. And it’s not that you are doing too much, you’re just doing too much—for them, but not for you.” (Dr. Horn, 37:27)
• “It is a smaller pool...you do have to expand your world. And this platform has allowed us to do this.” (Dr. Horn, 40:14)

5. Shame, Self-Worth, and Narratives

[50:08 – 59:03]

• Dr. Horn’s expertise in shame: shame as a social emotion, distinct from guilt, arising as early as 15 months old—well before self-evaluation.
• “Shame is what I feel when I violate your standards, not mine.” (Dr. Horn, 50:27)
• The crucial need for a shame-free mindset to unlock executive functioning and self-acceptance in ADHD.
• The physicality and neurology of shame: Survival responses and ancient brain mechanisms; digital communication can activate shame reflexes by blocking safety cues.
• Importance of recognizing and rewiring “shame-bound narratives” into “shame-free nervous system narratives”—not only for self-compassion, but for actual neurological regulation.
• “When we understand that it is a neurological response that is hardwired into our survival brain, it happens before we can think—that changes everything.” (Dr. Horn, 51:48)
• “You gotta calm that shame and rewrite that narrative.” (Dr. Horn, 62:58)

6. Executive Functioning, Trauma, and the Sensitive Nervous System

[43:02 – 61:39]

• ADHD often mistaken for unprocessed trauma—there’s a false binary between the two; in reality, many with ADHD experience both.
• Neurological sensitivity (metaphor: dial-up vs. fiber optic internet) renders ADHD brains more susceptible to stress and shame.
• Polyvagal theory and nervous system mapping offer practical tools for regulation and healing.
• Trauma impacts are experienced in the body and nervous system, independent of verbal or declarative memory.
• “There are some things we’re just not going to understand and we need to be okay with that mystery. And just know my body has this reaction.” (Dr. Horn, 61:17)

7. Practical Takeaways & Dr. Horn’s Book

[62:04 – episode close]

• #1 ADHD Work: Build a shame-free mindset—the foundation for all other growth.
• “With ADHD, it's all about expectation management. When you have a shame free understanding of your experience and give yourself permission to be the human that you are, you are already helping to decrease the fight and flight response so you can access your executive function functioning skills more effectively.” (Dr. Horn, 62:04)
• Dr. Horn’s book “Thrive Socially with Adult ADHD: The Shame Busting Guide to Build Better Relationships using Polyvagal Theory and Neuroscience” is recommended for all, as “it’s a human struggle.”
• Community, connection, and celebrating neurodivergence are key.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “No one ever made a difference by being too little.” (Tracy Otsuka, 01:56)
• “I was the class...the colorful one, the too much. Actually, I always heard you’re so weird and you’re too much. Right?” (Dr. Horn, 16:58)
• “I have a narrative that I was the most difficult. But to have my father say [I was delightful], it really shocked me.” (Dr. Horn, 18:45)
• “We are unicorns in a donkey world.” (Dr. Horn, 17:00)
• “Our Internet is dial up... we get activated very easily because our ancient brain is more dominant or has more strength, I would say, than our modern thinking brain.” (Dr. Horn, 55:46)
• “Because of that conditioning, we got adhd, that whatever standout quality we had was framed as a negative quality. So we have to deconstruct that and really rediscover who we are and rewrite those narratives, those shamebound narratives to shame free narratives.” (Dr. Horn, 38:17)
• “Name it, tame it, reframe it.” (Dr. Horn, 51:19)

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Key Timestamps

• 05:15 – Dr. Horn’s childhood stories; early signs of neurodiversity.
• 08:39 – Experiences of persistent criticism and shame in school.
• 13:30 – The lifelong effect of being labeled and underestimated.
• 24:17 – The achievement mask: Responsibility, masking, and the dismissal of ADHD symptoms.
• 25:51 – Internal denial of ADHD, even as a clinical psychologist.
• 30:32 – Challenges with healthcare system and the shame of seeking medication.
• 35:31 – Gendered manifestations of ADHD and professional misconceptions.
• 37:27 – The “unicorn in a donkey world” metaphor: owning one’s difference.
• 50:27 – Connection between shame, social emotion, and ADHD.
• 62:04 – Dr. Horn's #1 ADHD tip: develop a shame-free mindset.

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Dr. Shawn Horn: Where to Find Her

• Website: drshawnhorn.com
• Book: “Thrive Socially with Adult ADHD” (available everywhere books are sold)
• YouTube/Instagram: @drshawnhorn
• TEDx talk: “The Neuroscience of Shame and Digital Communication”

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Final Takeaway

This episode offers a deep, validating dive into what it means to grow up—and thrive—as an ADHD woman in a world that so often tries to shrink you. It’s not about fixing yourself to fit; it’s about reshaping your narrative, dropping the shame, celebrating your strengths, and connecting with others who let you “go big.” Dr. Horn’s insights blend lived experience with scientific understanding, making this essential listening for anyone seeking to turn their unique brain into their greatest asset.

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Recommended Next Listen: Part two with Dr. Shawn Horn, focusing on trauma, nervous system regulation, and practical tools for healing and growth.

Transcript

[A]

Before we start, a quick note. If you've been listening to this podcast and thinking, I need more than insight, I need support. This is for you. Your ADHD brain is not broken. It just never came with a map. That is why I created your ADHD Brain is a okay Academy. It's my patented step by step framework to help you build a life. And that finally fits how your brain works. Ready to get started? Click the link in the show notes to sign up or book a free discovery call with me now. On with the show.

[B]

Why have I not been specializing in ADHD like I've been specializing in nervous system regulation? Why not adhd? All these years, I've been living in it. In it. It's in my face. We just don't even notice.

[A]

Richard Branson, Michael Phelps, Justin Timberlake, James Carville. Wait a minute. Where are the women? Greta Gerwig, Lisa Ling, Audra McDonald, Simone Biles. That sounds like a list of highly successful titans in a variety of industries. They all have adhd, but you don't hear much about that now, do you? You know what else you don't hear about are the 43% of people with ADHD who are in excellent mental health. Why aren't we talking about them and what they're doing right? I'm your host, Tracy Adsuka, and that's exactly what we do here. I'm a lawyer, not a doctor, a lifelong student, and now the author of my new book, ADHD for Smartass Women. I'm also a certified ADHD coach and the creator of youf ADHD Brain is aok, a patented system that helps ADHD women just like you get unstuck and fall in love with their brilliant brains. Here we embrace our too muchness, and we focus on our strengths. My guests and I credit our ADHD for some of our greatest gifts. And to those who still think they're too much, too impulsive, too scattered, too disorganized, I say no one ever made a difference by being too little.

[B]

Foreign.

[A]

Hello, I am your host, Tracy Otsuka. Thank you so much for joining me here for another episode of ADHD for Smartass Women. You know that my purpose is always to show you who you are and then inspire you to be it. And the thousands of ADHD women that I've had the privilege of meeting, I've never met one, not one single one, that wasn't truly brilliant at something. So, of course, I'm just delighted to introduce you to Dr. Shawn Horn. Dr. Horne is a licensed clinical psychologist based in Spokane, Washington, and the author of this lovely book, Thrive Socially with Adult the Shame Busting Guide to Build Better Relationships using Polyvagal Theory and And neuroscience from it's new harbinger, right?

[B]

Yes, that's right.

[A]

Wonderful. So people know her as the shame busting psychologist, and for good reason. For more than 30 years, she has helped adults untangle the story they've been telling themselves about being too much, not enough or bad at relationships and replace it with something grounded in nervous system science. We love science, don't we? She blends deep clinical expertise with her own lived experience as an adult with 80. Ironically, she describes herself as the poster child for ADHD growing up. Yet she went undiagnosed until she was studying for her psychology licensing exam. That late diagnosis shifted everything. What once felt like personal shortcomings began to make sense through the lens of neuroscience, regulation and connection. Today, she helps others move from a shame bound identity to a shame free nervous system narrative. As I already said, Sean lives in Spokane with her husband of 32 years. There are three cats. Oh, my gosh, you're a cat lady. I think three or more. You become a cat lady. And 14 chickens. That sounds ADHD. I have four, but I had 17 at one time. Who eats 17 chickens worth of eggs, right? Including her favorite named Pearl. I bet you Pearl's white or ivory.

[B]

She's like an iridescent silver kind of.

[A]

Oh, oh, okay. She and her husband are also the proud parents of two happily married adult children, which she jokingly considers her greatest executive functioning achievement. When she's not busting shame, you'll find her kayaking, hiking, paddleboarding, or planning her next trip aboard. Phew. Sean, welcome. Did I get all of that right?

[B]

Yes, thank you so much. Yes, that's a lot.

[A]

Okay, so, Sean, what we always start with here is your ADHD diagnosis story. And I know based on the preview that it's gonna be a good one, so would you mind sharing it with us?

[B]

You know, I come from a family of storytellers, of course, because it's very neurodiverse, and neurodiverse folks are so good at telling stories. And I remember this time leading a group in a psychiatric hospital and one of the gals stopped and she said, what do you. You probably had a silver spoon in your mouth your whole life and always got straight A's and went to college. And I thought, oh my goodness, if she only knew. And so my story was as a child, I was that whimsical, outgoing child that they can never keep by their side, you know, My mom has a story about shopping with me and she lost me. And they found me in the middle of the mall dancing and singing for an old man. And she wanted to put me on a leash, but she didn't want people to get mad at her. But I would just go. And in the middle of the night they would go in my room. I wasn't in there. They found me walking down the street with my little purse and a robe. Said, where are you going? I said, I'm going to get gum, Mommy. And you know, so I was bold, I was brave and, and full of. I was such a big hearted child. I loved everything that lived. I mean, at 3, I was a tree hugger. I was loving slugs because they're bugs too, that get to be loved. And you know, just felt if I loved. I was so expressive and I talked so much. But I got in so much trouble. Trouble for interrupting, trouble for breaking things. I was always breaking things and getting into places I wasn't supposed to, saying things that were inappropriate. One time I'm at a dinner with some people and the man had a blue beard. And I remember Bluebeard looked like Pluto. And Pluto went to prison. So I interrupted the entire dinner party at 6 and said, have you been in prison before? You know, this arm went up, that arm went up. Next thing I know, my mom and my grandma are taking me to the room and disciplining me and what are you doing? And oh my gosh, I don't know. So I would say things that just were out of pocket. And at school I got in so much trouble. And I have something special to share with you. I actually have my report cards. I contacted the school district and my second. This is me in second grade. It says Sean requires constant individual attention in math and written language. Another one, fourth grade, says Shawn needs to stop socializing so much, keep up her classroom work. In fifth grade, it says Shawn would do even better with more attention given to her work. Sean should arrange her work after last conferences. And then it goes on. It says today she slacks off in the schoolwork. And. And she needs to concentrate on paying more attention. Concentrates. Underlined. Attentions. Underlined. Both words and the. And it's with exclamation mark.

[A]

I want to ask you a question.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Did any of these teachers actually talk about your good qualities or was it just the things you were lacking?

[B]

Lacking. I felt constantly criticized and my name was always on the board and being so sensitive, you know, I was just devastated. I wanted them to like me. I Wanted the kids to like me. And I remember being in first grade and I was sitting in the back of the classroom sucking my thumb. And the teacher said, kids, I want you all to turn around and look at Sean. And they all turn around. I'm sitting there sucking my thumb, looking around like, what's going on? And she says, Sean's sucking her thumb just like a little baby. We don't play with babies, so I don't want anyone to play with Shawn. And I. You know, when I was writing my book, so many things started to make sense. I know. Isn't that a horrible shame story?

[A]

She should be uncredentialed.

[B]

Yes. Yes. And this is how shame is constantly experienced with adhd. I had so many mysteries of things I didn't understand. And when I was writing the book, I mentioned the 30% rule, how our development of our thinking brain is 30% behind our, our neurotypical peers. So when you're 6 years old, you're really 4. And they say because of that you don't recognize the patterns. And I didn't recognize at that age that nobody else is sucking their thumb. Maybe this is not an appropriate behavior for school. And then when they point that out to me, I couldn't understand, like why, you know, what's wrong? And so I couldn't pick up the patterns. I didn't understand what I was supposed to be doing. I realized also when I was writing the book that I had auditory processing problems. So I was that kid constantly turning to the kid next to me going, what did they say? What did they say? I also learned while writing the book that I had dysgraphia and I knew I had dyslexia. I suspected it, but I couldn't hold a pencil correctly. To this day, I hold it like kind of in a fist like this instead of the tripod position. And in school I couldn't do phonics and I did not know that that was linked to dysgraphia. And so spelling was really hard. To this day, I still struggle with phonics. I get so embarrassed. I was supposed to travel to Arizona and I was talking to my brother in law and I said, what is Tucson? Like? I've never heard of Tucson. You know, he's like, I've never heard of that. And I go, who goes there? And it's so hard to get there. And he goes, do you mean Tucson? I'm like, oh my gosh. Like, of course I know Tucson. I know what it looks like, you know, But I just, you know, in Those moments you get, you're just so in, in the moment and not sounding out the word correctly. And so spelling was hard, reading was hard. But here's the thing that really blows people away. When I was in first grade, they gave all the kids aptitude test and I saw bubbles and I loved connecting dots, drawing connect dot pictures. So I had better idea of how to use my time. I was just going to draw these beautiful pictures. So when they got the scores, they called my mom in a meeting and they said, you know, have you draw. Did Sean get dropped on her head? They literally said this. And she, they said Sean has a severe cognitive problem. They actually use the R word. Said that I was mentally, you know,

[A]

of course they did.

[B]

And so they put me in special ed. And at that time, when you're in special ed, you don't ever get out, you know. And I remember middle school, I had this teacher that was really good and was starting to teach me beyond arithmetic and subtraction. But they had a cut in the teachers and all of a sudden the wood shop teachers there and I went up to him and I said, I'm going to go to high school next year and I want to be able to do algebra. And he looked at me and said, Sean, you will never be able to do algebra. You will never be able to go to college. Like this is what you can do. And fortunately I was switched to a private school at that time. You know, I told my parents and they, they moved at schools for me. And, and by the way, I was raised by my grandma who is from Mexico and Spanish was her primary language. And so she couldn't see, she had glasses that were like bottle caps. So she struggled in school and just thought it was because she was dumb, you know, that's what she said. And then my mom struggled in school because she also is neurodiverse. Didn't know it. So they said to me, you know what, we're just not good at school. We're really good with people, but we're not good at school. So it was just the expectation. But then I had the opportunity to play volleyball in a community college. And when I took the entrance exams, I failed all of them. And they had an intervention program there where they taught the people that failed how to be good students, how to take notes, how to read, how to keep a master calendar, how to understand syllabuses. And once they didn't realize it, but what they were doing was giving me executive functioning skills of which I didn't have. And once I have those skills. The world is my oyster. Next thing I know I'm on the dean's list. Then off I go to Seattle Pacific University and, and when I was there I told one of the professors that my dream was to go to college to get my doctorate in psychology. And he said, funny you mentioned that because George Fox University just called me and they have an opening and I think you're a perfect candidate and I'd like to recommend you. So they accepted me on probation and they said, don't tell anyone that we accepted you without the gre, you know, because I didn't take any of that.

[A]

Oh my gosh.

[B]

And my first class, I'm sitting in there, talk about imposter syndrome special ed kid. I did not read, read a novel until I went to college. And I'm sitting there looking around and here's valedictorians and straight A students and, and I thought, oh my gosh, you know, how am I going to do this? And the teacher said, I'm going to take the professor the top paper of this class and grade everyone's paper to that paper. And I thought, I am just doomed. And then I wrote my paper, she pulled me aside, said shaw, I need to talk to you. Which always freaks us out, right? Because rsd, like anyone says we need to talk. It's major shame spiral, right? A lot body freaks out. And I met with her and she said, Sean, I want you to know that you had the top paper. I couldn't believe it. I just like what? I'm still thinking I'm incapable, right? And it took me a long time to realize that I was actually very intelligent. I just hated school. I hated everything about it. Everything about it. I had to do it to become a psychologist. And when I did go to Seattle Pacific, I did end up being A in statistics at George Fox in my doctoral program at A in statistics. I thought if I could only see that professor, that teacher now and say not only could I not do math, but I did excel. But because of my auditory processing, learning in the class by lecture did not work for me. But at that school they had a self paced math course to where I could learn and talk to someone. And that did work for me. So once I had the foundation, then I could understand. So when I was in the doctoral program, that's when I requested my report cards because I thought I need to understand what happened. Like how did they think that I was mentally retarded?

[A]

Was there not one teacher in your whole 12 year history of, you know, elementary, middle, and high school that saw your potential? Not one.

[B]

The one person that did was that math teacher that I had briefly that got me started getting me to do algebra. But then they did the teacher cut. And I had a reputation for having a big, colorful personality. So in high school, I was voted most likely to be remembered. I emceed the pep rallies. You know, I mean, I was the class, you know, the colorful one, the too much. Actually, I always heard you're so weird and. And you're too much. Right?

[A]

What would you do in school? Like, okay, you're most likely to be remembered. What were you. Were you. Did you sing? Were you an artist? Were you or did you just kind of lead?

[B]

Do you know, when I was 18, I became a singing telegram performer. I was Ronnie Rap and Raisin. I was Nurse Noodle. I would go into Home Depot and, you know, do my little do, do, do. I'm here for your birthday, you know, And I just was bold and outgoing and I loved talking. And

[A]

so you didn't have any problems socially. You had a lot of friends and people liked you. And.

[B]

Well, I thought I had a huge problem socially because I always moved schools and I didn't get invited to the birthday parties. I didn't have the play dates with the kids that were getting together. Halloween trick or treating was just me. Or I was lucky if I had a friend to go with me. And I didn't know why. I couldn't understand, you know, is it me? So I started thinking I was unlikable because of my behavior. And I was told a lot as a child. I was bossy. Like, they. My mom would say, don't be so bossy that I talked too much, you know, dominated conversations trying to make sense of what makes a person likable. Seeing my parents being storytellers, I thought, well, that's what will make me likable. So I try to entertain. And then it was like, oh, gosh, she's always talking about herself, you know, kind of thing. And that's. I learned a lot to understand even that more while I was writing the book, but interestingly have this narrative that I've just. It's hard to find friends. It's hard to. You know, I didn't know why I'm never really kind of fitting in. I say, we are unicorns in a donkey world. And when I tell my friends, I go, what are you talking about, Sean? Like, everyone loves you, blah, blah, blah. But I. I would notice that I. That people don't gravitate to me. And not understand why. So I would hear, you're too intimidating. You're too tall. I'm six one. You're too beautiful. You're too smart. You're too, you know, whatever it is that. And people would, oh, you're so intimidating. You know, I'm sorry. I don't want to be this way at networking events. I'd stand up, you know, I do. I'm a TEDx speaker, author. Next person gets up, well, how am I supposed to follow that? You know? And I just feel so bad. But recently I was talking to my dad, and he has. I was the only child till I was 16. Now I have five brothers, a lot of siblings. And I said to him, well, I know that I was the difficult one. And he immediately went, whoa, what are you talking about? You were delightful. You were the most precious child. You were so kind and so easy. And, you know, and I did. I cared about their feelings. I cared about making sure people were okay. I just kind of came out of the womb as a nurturing person and. But that floored me because I felt like as I was writing this, I deconstructed so many narratives that I thought, why did I think that? What was going on? And then I thought, wow, what is this? I have a narrative that I was most difficult. But to have my father say that, it really shocked me. And then I thought maybe it was that RSD that I saw the world, you know, filter through. And because of the intense emotional experience I had when people had a negative reaction to me, I perceived it as, you know, I'm not likable or something's wrong, but actually, it may be a very different story. And so now I'm really kind of reevaluating things and going, did I see that right? Did I make sense of that right as a child? Because I might have missed it.

[A]

I wonder, too, if it's this interpersonal intuition that we have and so we can read people's responses even when they don't even know they're giving them. And so I wonder, when you take all that in and other people don't, you get a much, I don't know, more diverse kind of story around. You know, you start telling yourself, oh, because you felt that and, you know, you saw that glance of the eye that people don't like you, when in truth, they don't even realize they're doing it. And they're kind of doing it with everyone, but we're the ones that pick it up and feel it.

[B]

You know, it's so Interesting you say that, Traci, because years ago I was in therapy and the therapist said, you are a burden bearer. And I was like, what's a burden bearer? Never heard of that. And I heard Oprah talk about sponge people that kind of pick up the emotions of other people. But she said, like, when you walk into a room, you absorb whatever is the heaviness, the struggle that people have. And then it dawned on me and I was like, oh my gosh. I would walk into a social situation feeling great, walk out, feeling all these negative thoughts and feelings. And then I realized I was picking up their stuff, like their low self esteem, their anger, their insecurity. I call it being sticky. Noted. Like saying, hi, I'm Sean. And they go, hi, Boom. Sticky note insecurity. Hi, I'm Sean. Hi, I'm boom. Anxiety, you know, and, and then I walk out with all these sticky notes and I'm like, I feel so terrible. What's wrong with me? And I realize it wasn't me, it wasn't coming from me. And, and the telling part is that I didn't enter with that, but I exited with it. And so that really reframed that whole experience for me. And now I pay more attention to what I feel when I'm meeting someone.

[A]

Let's pause here. Have you spent your whole life being told your way is the wrong way? If you try to use systems designed for a neurotypical brain, of course you'll feel like you're failing. But here's the truth. You were never the problem. You just have a different brain, which means you need different systems. That is exactly why I created the A OK Academy. It's my six step patented framework designed to help you reconnect with your intuition and build systems based on your unique strengths. Let me help you reconnect with your intuition, trust yourself again, and build a life that actually works for you. You've had the answers all along. I'll help you see them. Look, it's time to stop second guessing and start trusting yourself again. Find the link in the show notes to sign up or book a free discovery call now. Now let's get back to it. Okay, so let's go back to the psychology licensing exam.

[B]

Oh yes.

[A]

When you discovered that, oh my gosh, adhd. Can you tell that story? You are such an interesting and fun storyteller. I think I could be here all day. And so we're taking a long time, but it's really, it's a great story. So we're gonna do, I think some

[B]

of your listeners can relate to this. You know, I think I can. I had a, I. A supervisor once that said, Sean, he was a Native American. I was working at Indian Health Services, and I. I analyzed something with someone and they didn't respond really well. So I was saying, you know, what went wrong there? And he sat back and in his native way, he said, sean, why is it so important that people know you're smart? And I was like, oh, my gosh, what are you talking about? You know, and then I went, oh. And then I remember, like, I felt a calling to this career, but had the thought, if I get my doctorate, nobody will ever wonder if I'm not smart. And so I got very invested into showing the world I was capable, that I. It was so important that people knew I was reliable, responsible, consistent, dependable, and that if they call me, I would see it through, you know, because we all say, yes, and then we struggle, oh, no, I can't do that. And then we cancel last minute. And I learned quickly that won't work for me. So I really masked like crazy. And I did not think I was ADHD in any shape or form, surprisingly.

[A]

Because you didn't do any of that. Right? Because your word was golden. If you said you were going to be there, you were there.

[B]

Yes. And I let my experience overshadow my symptoms. So when I would struggle and it was so much harder for me than other people reading a page over and over and over again. Because I read it, but I didn't comprehend it because my mind was also going through my grocery list while I'm reading the book. Right. So I'm just like, ah. So I'd read it again. And I knew it was harder for me, but I attribute it to this intelligence thing. And, and I was going to tell you when I got the results or when I got my report card, I saw that they gave me an intelligence test, and I. My score was in the very superior range. Gifted. And they use the word gifted with my mom, but she interpreted as that, like, special. Like, special bus special, you know, and because I was in special ed, so nobody really interpreted it correctly. And so I did not know I was intelligent. And like, I got the memo now. So, like, here I am. I had two babies in my doctoral program, which was very hard and crazy. Yeah.

[A]

Only attempted by someone with an ADHD brain.

[B]

Yeah. Well, I did use birth control, so I couldn't understand what happened. Trying to manage myself with the children and the parenting. This is when life was so hard. Right. And. And then But I. But I kind of pulled it through, and here I am now. Time for licensing exam, and I cannot concentrate. I'm reading this stuff. I couldn't. This stuff, it was interesting, was great, great. But when you take a licensing exam, you have to all nine top fields that are in the field of psychology, including test and measurements, research methods. I mean, this, like, kill me now. Like, why are we doing this? And so I. I went to my doctor and I said, you know, I think I need, like, Ritalin or something. And he laughed and he said, oh, all of us took Ritalin when we did our licensing exams. And I was like, really? And so he said, all the doctors, all the nurses, everybody did that. So he gives me some Ritalin, and I was able to apply myself to read, to comprehend, to remember. My. My working memory was supported. It quieted the other noise. And so I passed my licensing exam, But I didn't like the Ritalin. Made me very monotone with my personality.

[A]

So there was no ADHD diagnosis, nothing. This was just some clinician saying, this is what's going to get you through the licensing exam.

[B]

Yes. And. And so I went off of it. But then later, my husband says, I think we should homeschool the kids. And I went, I can't homeschool the kids. What are you talking about? And then I thought, well, I did get my doctorate. If I did that, I could probably do it. So, of course I tried. Was wonderful. Two months, I don't have to get supplies. I don't have to get school, you know, clothes. I'm sitting back. It's during the time where this Kids Nation show was on tv, where they took these children and put them in a ghost town and let them survive. Totally unethical, unacceptable. But we watched it as, like, a social study. And. And I got this lady to help me, and she calls me, she says, sean, I need to talk to you. She brings me in. She goes, you know, at this point, we can see whether, you know, or. She said, I've been watching you, and I have some feedback for you. You can take it or you can leave it. Stop homeschooling. And I went, what? She said, if you care about your children's academic experience, you will not be doing this. And then I got a call from their homeschool enrichment program, and they wanted to meet with me. So I go in and they go, how, Sean? How is it going? I said, funny you mentioned that. This tutor just told me to stop homeschooling. And she goes, I concur. What I'M like. She goes, it's just not for everyone. And we think this just is not a good match for your family. So then I went to my doctor and I said, I need to go back on ADHD medication. Like, my world is falling apart.

[A]

So at this point, are you thinking, like, at any time during the license psychology licensing exam, you're taking Ritalin? At any point, are you thinking I have adhd?

[B]

Nope.

[A]

No.

[B]

Not even as a clinical psychologist. And so then I. My doctor gave me Adderall. It was fabulous. Loved it, Very helpful. But then she moved, and I need a new doctor. And this doctor was terrible. She came in the room, and she takes out her chart she's looking at. She goes, why. Why are you here? You. You're what, you're wanting some Adderall? And I said, yes. And she goes, well, I don't know. I'm not. I'm not just giving this to you. I need a diagnosis. I said, well, I have a diagnosis.

[A]

So you had a diagnosis of adhd, but you didn't believe it?

[B]

No. Well, the doctor does. Technically, to give you Ritalin, they have to put ADHD down, right? Okay.

[A]

But you'd never actually gone through the testing.

[B]

No. And. And so she says, well, you have to have psychological testing. I said, I'm a psychologist. She goes, well, I'm not going to just believe you. Like, you know. And then she started telling me what psychological testing, how it would be done. I sat there going, did she even hear me? Like, I've been doing psych testing for years, right? So I was mad at her, and I contacted a psychologist. I said, look, this bozo wants me to go through this whole thing. And I looked at her, I said, how am I going to do that when I know the answers? Like, you know, I mean, they're not new to me. Like, I administer these tests, right? So I brought in my report cards, I went through my developmental history, which, you know, symptoms there prior to, you know, the age where they say now at the time it was seven. And so she wrote up the report, said I had adhd, and we submitted the report, and then I was able to get medically treated. And I had. I felt like a drug seeker. I could not believe how she was treating me. I was humiliated. I was embarrassed.

[A]

And you're a psychologist. So many women are made to feel like this. They are not psychologists.

[B]

Yeah. Condescending, corrective, dismissive, you know, and it's just incredible to me. And so then when you do want to go see a doctor, you're scared. You're scared to tell them I need new meds. You're scared to pick it up at the pharmacy because you just think they're all thinking you're a drug seeker. And you know, fortunately, if you find an ally that understands it, great. But there are few.

[A]

So did you find someone? And ultimately you took the whole battery of testing.

[B]

Well, interesting you say that. I just went to two huge ADHD conferences, the CHAD conference and the apsard, which is a medical conference, and they presented saying that psychological testing is not appropriate to assess for ADHD because what they find is that ADHDers outperform neurotypical. We do better, we do better on the working memory measures than the average person. And why is that? Because we're in an isolated, quiet, one on one environment without interruptions. It's not about our intellectual ability, it's about how it affects our daily living. You know, like I, I can remember. You give me five items, ask me 20 minutes later in a controlled environment, I'm going to tell you, but if I don't forget my grocery list at home and I'm at the grocery store, I cannot remember that the three items that I needed to get because of all the interruption that kind of, you know, throws your working memory off. So what we need for that assessment is a very good somebody who does it, who knows what ADHD looks like, the nuances. Like I asked my clients, how many unread books do you have next to your bed? Right, because we have strong starts, weak finishes. You know, you talk about special interests. I was working out to this guy on YouTube and all of a sudden, I don't know why, I don't know why this hit me, but I thought, I wonder if I can learn how to belly dance. Next thing I know, I'm belly dancing with YouTube. Then I think, oh, what would it be like to yodel? Why? I don't like yodeling. Don't want to yodel. Next thing I know, I'm learning yodeling. Next thing I know, I'm crafting flowers. There they are. Next thing I know, you know, it's like we're constantly switching. Which before I was told that it was flaky, like, oh, I thought you were going to do the flowers. Why are you now yodeling? You know, it's like, well, because I'm, it's done. I'm bored. It's not novel anymore. Moving on, right? So it's, oh, psych testing. So we, we want that person who is really informed, does a Thorough developmental history and family history. My mother meets the criteria, my father meets the criteria, my grandparents meet it. I have siblings that are diagnosed with it. I don't have a child diagnosed with it, which probably could. But you know, I, and I sat there recently when I, when I had the opportunity to read this book, which you need. We need to talk about the YouTube story. I thought, why have I not been specializing in adhd? Like, I've been specializing in nervous system regulation, but why not adhd? All these years I've been living in it. In it. It's in my face. And yet I'm like, do, do, do, you know? And so now, of course, I am a specialist and teaching about it. But it's just amazing that we, again, because it's our norm, we just don't even notice.

[A]

Well, and I think the symptoms can be so very different from women. And there are a lot of women like you who, okay, maybe they struggled in school, maybe they didn't. Maybe school was their area of hyper focus. But either way, they get through life and then they get a PhD, you know, get a doctorate, get a. Which I guess would be the same thing. Get a law degree, get an engineering degree. And so we are told because of that you're too smart and you can't possibly have adhd. And doctors and clinicians say that, that all the time still.

[B]

Yep. And they don't look at is for impulsivity and hyperactivity. It's expressed in our thoughts. We have hyperactive thoughts, our conversations and busy all the time. Our mind never rests. We think everyone's mind is like that. It's not, you know, the compulsive shopping, the, the, the spending problems that comes up for us, the forgetting to go pick up your meds or not picking them up and having them sit there for three weeks. Weeks.

[A]

And this is the thing. There's all this chatter that, I mean, I can completely relate to that, oh, you know, if you try meds or if you use meds, that you are a drug seeker. When in truth, most of us forget to take our medication. Right. Or we forget that we need to go pick it up or we do it in the last minute. So there's a gap.

[B]

We forget to call it in. We forget to call them and say, oh, I'm out of my meds.

[A]

Right. Which is way more common than someone who's actually drug seeking. And if they are drug seeking, my question would always be, okay, well, what is going on in their life that they feel like that is the only way that they can regulate their nervous system. So there's likely something else going on. And often it is ADHD underlying it.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And it's that, you know, how women are socialized often where we kind of need to be the same, we're not allowed to stand out.

[B]

And if we do, we have perception blindness. If I was to invent and create something, I'm saying it now for the first time in a public forum, we have perception blindness. We don't know how people see us and we don't, we don't read it. So when people say you're too much and they're feeling small because you went big and they're trying to pull you back so they're more comfortable, like, don't go big so I can be more comfortable because it makes. I have that inner critic saying I should be doing all that, right? And we don't understand that. We just think, oh, no, I'm, I'm doing the ADHD thing again. I'm doing, I'm having poor judgment, I'm being impulsive. No, you're a unicorn in a donkey world. And it's not that you are doing too much, you're just doing too much. Much for them, but not for you. So give yourself that permission to go big. Put your feet in those big shoes that were designed for you. You know, I always felt like I was meant to be on a stage. And every time I felt this way, that I was meant to be in public place, I thought, oh, God, I'm bipolar. I'm being too grandiose. Oh, no, am I narcissistic? This is narcissistic. You know, know, like we get worried. We have every diagnosis, right? But you know, FYI, narcissists don't wonder if they're narcissistic, just they don't. So I, I was like, you know, scared. But then, you know, here. That is what has happened. And I was made for to have a voice in those spaces. But it's hard when you're the 1% and you, and you, you don't have people that are doing it with you. And it just feels like I must be doing something wrong. Because of that conditioning, we got adhd, that whatever standout quality we had was framed as a negative quality. So we have to deconstruct that and really rediscover who we are and rewrite those narratives, those shamebound narratives to shame free narratives that allow us to unleash those chains and soar in the way that you uniquely are meant to do. Because that Unicorn are very special and very beautiful.

[A]

Well, and this is the other thing, I believe. So when you go big, other people see you and they can see, oh, she's me, she's one of me. She's my people. And they gravitate towards you. So you just kind of up who you are around because everybody then goes big, right?

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And so I think most of the time those people you're trying to fit in with with, they're not your people to begin with.

[B]

Yes. But it is a smaller pool. Like, you know, when you're in a community, let's say you're an entrepreneur, how many other entrepreneurs do you meet? How many other authors do you meet? And so you do have to expand your world. And, and this platform has allowed us to do this. Like the, the community that I have built with other colleagues on Instagram, through podcasts have really been. It's been water to my soul because I've met other people that want to play the way I want to play on playground. And so we get excited and energized and we inspire each other. And that's so wonderful. Right. But in, but when you're so alone in it, in your own community, it's a very lonely experience. It is true that being a leader can be very lonely. And, and so there's that, you know, but that's okay because we're going to overlook it and we're still going to do it.

[A]

And I think it's more lonely to be around a bunch of people that aren't your people and try to fit in.

[B]

We don't like superficial talk. We want to go deep. And this is one of the reasons why, in my last chapter, I talk about how we're often victims of narcissistic abuse and narcissists know how to go. They love bomb us. Right? But we look like we're love bombing, but we genuinely love so big and we're not being strategic. So when we meet someone that's also big ideas, big entrepreneur, love bombing you, we think I found my unicorn. Right. And then we just jump in because we don't want to wait. We don't want to wait the two years to figure out who you are. We want to love you today because I'm so excited about who you are. And we have that confirmation bias that if I feel so good with you, I think you're a good person. And we have to pull back and learn how to discern. So in my, my last chapter, I really spell that out because we. That's one of the mysteries of social life is the people that come into our life. We tend to draw and attract a lot of those narcissists, a lot of people that were good mirrors for them. We're good, we're a good stepping ladder for them. And. And then when they done utilizing us, we go, what happened? You know, and so it's not our discernment that's wrong because I guarantee we have the gut feelings sometimes, but it's the self trust that we don't have and still looking at other people to tell us how it is. So we have to reclaim our discernment and our intuition and learn what that looks like. Interoception problems complicate that because we learn to ignore that and ignore the cues inside our body.

[A]

We don't even feel it. Right. It's not even, I mean it can be, I guess, that you learn to ignore it. And I would say, well, that is that trauma. But it's also, we just don't feel it. Like we, you know, we don't have the time to know when we're hungry.

[B]

Yeah, I just read a study that said that concluded 55 to 65% of adult ADHDers do not read their interoception cues. They're equally pay attention to their body, but they can't read what their body is telling them. So we have to have these accommodations, these, these things to help us. And that's why I teach about the nervous system, how to map it, because we may not recognize we're in a fight and flight when we're in it, but we can recognize it if we know that when I'm there, I have these behaviors. When I'm there, I have these feelings. When I'm there, I do these things. And so when we're doing them, we go, oh, that means I'm in a fight and flight.

[A]

Okay, Sean, so I've got to interrupt you because I, I don't know if this is ADHD or I'm a little bit on the autism spectrum, which I say a lot. But I need to complete that story. I want to know when did the light bulb finally go off and you said, oh my gosh, this is adhd?

[B]

Yeah, when I got those report cards and I went to see that psychologist for the assessment and I was really taking inventory. I mean, I think the first conversation with a doctor saying, you know, I've had these things throughout my life, but that really sealed the deal. And I think as we have started to educate more and learn more, I was like, yeah, this is a neurodevelopmental disorder. It doesn't ever go away. So I have this. And then I started doing deep dives to learn more and to explore that.

[A]

And there wasn't one specific time that you just remember, like, sitting somewhere. And, like, I remember, you know, doing all this work for my son. And I'm sitting on the island and I've got my computer. And for the first time, I learned that drivenness is a form of hyperactivity. And I literally remember slamming my palms on the island and saying, oh, my God, he got it from me. Was there anything like that with you?

[B]

No. I think the big moment that took me back after the Ritalin to get the Adderall was when I was homeschooling. I got in a car accident and my water got turned off. That for a $30 bill that I forgot to pay. And I sat there and everything was falling apart. And I realized, oh, I can't do all this. This is more than what I can do. This is. This is adhd, you know, But I didn't know about executive functioning. That wasn't until I did my TED talk. And when I started to do my YouTube video, which is a great story. My gosh, your listeners are going to love it. And so. So when we get into that, you'll understand more. But I, I. You know, it wasn't this. It was like a process. It was like a vapor that just kind of slowly sunk in.

[A]

Yeah, clearly, we're gonna have to have you come back. Cause we haven't even gotten into why I wanted you here. Can you tell us the YouTube story?

[B]

When I'm talking to PE people, some of the things that would happen is I get a thousand ideas. Someone goes, oh, I went to Italy. I'm like, oh, my gosh, Italy. Blah, blah, blah, blah. And I learned that back in the day that. That people perceive that as one upping or dominating conversation. So I just practice not interjecting and waiting till everyone's done. So I'm on this retreat with women. We're hiking. They're all talking. My mind is exploding. I'm using all of my inhibition possible to not interject. And I went, oh, my gosh, this is one of those ADHD stories. So I took out my phone and I started sharing it on a video. And I said, adult ADHD live. And I talked to. Talked about talking too much over sharing, interrupting. How it's been a struggle, how people have perceived me, how I made sense of it. And then I posted it. Didn't look Back year later, Washington Post contacts me. We're doing a story on ADHD and talking habits. And you're the only thing we found out there. Now, you and I know when you want to write a book, you got to find a niche. So I thought, what do you mean? That I'm the only thing out there. So then I look and I find, find. Sure enough, there wasn't anything specifically for ADHD adults on their talking habits and social stuff. And then they told me your vi. Your video went viral. I said, what? And I look back. 45000 views. But what was so touching and moving and compelling were the comments. There was over 600 comments and they were in true ADHD form. Paragraph, paragraphs, essays long drawn out, people saying, oh my gosh, this is me. I feel so sane. I'm sitting here crying. This is my story. Like I never knew that. Please, what do we do? What do we do?

[A]

And you didn't even know and you just posted the video and walked away.

[B]

Yeah, I am a true ADHD influencer. I can do not write my. I heard you say you have to have it writing. I cannot have it in writing. I get frozen. And so I have to be spontaneous. And so I do spontaneous posts, spontaneous videos. And so I just, you know, shared my heart, moved on because I'm not. It's not about me. It's about the people that I'm trying to help and touch and inspire. So I don't evaluate all that stuff carefully. And so yeah, that led me. I called a friend who got a book deal. I said, talk, I need your agent. Got on the phone with the agent, said I have an idea. And I said, it needs to be on shame because I'm a shame psychology specialist, been talking about it since mid-90s, teaching on it, lecturing. My TED talk was on the neuroscience of shame and digital communication. And so I thought, I can do this in my sleep. Holy moly. It's all on. I created social executive functioning model where I apply executive functions, social context. I had no idea the the mountain I was about to climb. This was the hardest thing I have ever done to take such complicated concepts of polyvagal theory to understand our nervous system. Because once you change that shame bound personal narrative of what's wrong with me to a shame free nervous system narrative, this is what's happening within me that changes everything. It changes the way we see ourselves, we see our history, we see others, the way we relate to late and so I, I was so passionate about this. And then connecting that with so taking a complicated concept, doing the social executive. It was tremendous, making my working memory work for me in the writing process. It was tremendous. But I did it and it's out. And I'm getting tremendous responses from people saying this saved my life. Thank you. It's the sweetest, most wonderful things that people are saying.

[A]

So I'm curious, you had spent so much time being an expert on shame, working in shame. At what point did you connect shame and adhd? Is that something that was fairly recent or is it something you've thought about the minute you started to understand adhd?

[B]

I think I thought about that before. I mean, definitely knew that way before I came to like, oh yes, I do have ADHD and it is impairing me because they go hand in hand. They, you know, we are shamed is a social emotion. It is what I feel when I violate your. Your standards, not mine. I can be fine dancing. I was gonna go, what are you doing? Oh my gosh. Right? And then the shame happens. Shame activation. But guilt is what we feel when we violate our standards. So it's, it's a self conscious emotion in which many people don't know is that the social emotion of shame occurs, is measured at 15 months of age, where guilt is measured at 5 or 6 years of age. So it's not coming from within. It's a survival emotion to make sure that we can stay connected to our tribe and not be exiled and be safe. So all this stuff out there about shame, it drives me nuts because they're not getting it accurately. I'm seeing the terms mix around. Healthy shame is good. Toxic shame isn't healthy. Shame is social correction. Develop our consciousness, toxic shame, identity condemnation. And then you have shame bound, identity, all this stuff. So I teach people all the different kinds of shame, shame reflex, healthy shame, toxic shame, shame boundaries, you know, shame, identity, all these things so that they can clearly understand what is impacting them. Because when you name it, you tame it and then you can reframe it. And when we understand that it is a neurological response that is hardwired into our survival brain, it happens before we can think. That changes everything.

[A]

That's crazy. So at 15 months old, you're an infant and you are more worried about what the outside world thinks than your own needs.

[B]

Yeah, you're not even thinking. It has nothing to do with your thinking brain because your thinking brain hasn't developed yet. It's that when someone scolds you, gets mad at you and you have that, it's like it's like a soul spanking. You go, and then you immediately want to hide. You know, the kids that put their head under the blanket or the dog that puts their tail under them and they go hide behind the couch. That is a shame response. The shame response causes to hide, to retreat, to remove so we can be safe. And it happens without our thinking brain. So what's so important is to know this is not about your thinking. It's not about your self esteem. It's not about who you are. It's not about your story, your character, your personality, nothing. It is what your body did to help help you. And because we couldn't make sense of it, we built these stories around it, like, oh, it must mean this about me. And a teaser. Digital communication activates the shame reflex. So we get it wrong there too, thinking that, oh, I'm insecure, that's why I'm on social media. No, when you're on social media for X amount of time, you're doing the zoom stuff, you're taught, you're live talking, whatever. You will have a shame activation because the digital platform blocks everything that your ancient brain requires to assess safety. So because it can assess safety, it activates a shame response. So you pull back, hide, retreat, and then we want to seek evidence of like, am I okay or not okay? Lots to say about that loop so we can dive deeper in that for sure.

[A]

So is this why, you know, we had this idea that, oh, well, if you're an infant and something bad happened, there was trauma, you know, that's better because you're not even gonna know what's going on. It's worse if you're older. And we now know that's not true. Those first two years are so important. Is that part of it? Because of that primitive shame reflex.

[B]

Yeah, we can have emotional flashbacks later. It gets hardwired into our internal computer. So think of your computer. It has software programming. Every one of the. Our brain is like a computer comes in, it's ready to. To be programmed. And every experience we have, it becomes software that programs it. And the thing is that we don't understand, like, why do I feel uncomfortable in this situation? Why do I inhibit myself? Can't make myself approach, can't. We don't understand. But it's the Our brain said, I got the memo. That is dangerous. We won't go there. We're going to pull back. So depending on what shaped us and because we have a dysregulated nervous system, a lot of people ask about that. They say, why Are neurodiverse people more prone to ptsd? And I can answer that, and we'll answer that next time we talk. But because we have this dysregulated nervous system, we are strongly impacted by that shame reaction. And then we go through life just really motivated to never feel that, that. But we feel it so often.

[A]

Is it also because we have these hypersensitivities and what we were talking about before, that interpersonal intuition. And so we feel things, you know, we're just more sensitive.

[B]

It has everything to do with our neurology and our myelinated neurons. We are not as myelinated. And so that means that think about like your Internet. You have dollop and you have high fiber optic. Our Internet is dial up. It like it, it's like sledding down in the summer on a rocky mountain. It's not smooth. So we get activated very easily because our ancient brain is more dominant or has more strength, I would say. And then our modern thinking brain. And so we activate really quickly and we have a very hard time coming back to recovery because of that dial up neurons. And so it's not me, it's not my history necessarily. It has everything to do about my nervous system, how it's communicating, how messages are going through, what your brain prioritized as. This is something we need to do a lot. This is something we rarely do. But the good news is we can reshape all that. And I explain how to do that in the book. And also that's the hope. There's so much hope in neuroplasticity and how we can influence our nervous system. And when we know what the keys are to down regulate our nervous system, they're very specific. When we know what they are, then we can access those. So that's where we use our thinking brain. It's like if your child falls and gets hurt, we know as a parent what to do. We know, I need to go and look and see. Do they need a hug and a kiss? Do they need a band aid? Urgent care hospital, we assess it and then we take a proper action. Our parent is our modern thinking brain, our prefrontal cortex. The baby falling is our ancient reptilian brain system. And so when that activates our thinking brain is what we're doing with this information is equipping it to recognize those cues and to know what it needs. Does it need the kiss? Does it need urgent care? Does it need a hospital? But in order to access that, you have to know, know what those solutions are. And every State of your nervous system requires different solutions. So that's where you want to map your nervous system and know what solutions to use. And I spell that out for people. And then it's like, oh, it's like a baby crying to identify. This cry is I'm hungry. This cry is I'm tired. This cry is I'm hot. And when you know what those cries are, then you can give it the solution it needs and it's that peace. But if it doesn't know, then it's frustrated and it does an arching back thing. It's like, it's too hot, doesn't want food, and you're like, I don't know what's going on. This is what adhd, we're. We're responding to our baby. The. The ancient nervous system, which is very developed and advanced, and there's lots to say about how our ancestors shaped that. But we don't know, like, does this. Because the interception, because alexithymia, all these things, we don't know, know what does it need? So I spell it out for people in this book and in my lectures and talks and all that kind of stuff. And people, it's like they're so excited. They have so much hope, and they go, I feel so free and so much better. Is explained. So much.

[A]

Yeah. So when you come back, I also want to talk about trauma and adhd, because with adhd, if you already have this very sensitive nervous system and then you add the trauma piece on.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

No wonder.

[B]

You know, this is a real division in the field. Like in my book, I reached out to ADHDers. They were so. The experts so willing to talk to me that the. The polyvagal people were very special. They were very sensitive. And I had one that I got on the phone with, and she almost interrogated me. It felt like for. I know it's a strong word, but for two hours, saying, this is trauma, it's not adhd, it's trauma. This is how Gabor did not have. Help us. Gabor has given messages that have been very harmful to the ADHD community. Maybe not with what he was trying to say, but for how people are interpreting it. And so pe. So there's this. It's not adhd, It's. It's trauma.

[A]

So what they're saying, ADHD is causing trauma.

[B]

They're saying it's not adhd. It is a trauma disorder. And if you dress the trauma, you heal the adhd. Now, the problem is, we're thinking black and white. Is it adhd? Is it trauma? Well, guess what, it's both. Because if you have adhd, you have trauma, you have social trauma. It comes with the experience, the living experience of adhd. And if we had neurodiverse families, and

[A]

it's in varying degrees, right, some of us have, you know, very little trauma. And others, especially those of us who were able to get through school and do pretty well.

[B]

Tracy, it's like this. There's some people that can handle a lot of hot sauce. And there's some people, you put a little pepper on their mouth and they're burning like crazy, right? What the trauma community is doing is saying, oh, you burn with pepper. That's because you were tra. You have trauma and we have to process it. No, my body has this experience because I'm sensitive to that, right. Because of my wiring. I have so many people that think there must be trauma. Let's you know, even in the trauma world, we know now that you can't fix it with your thinking brain because a lot of it cannot be articulated because it wasn't established in a declarative memory. So you have to do body work. And there's some things we're just not going to understand and we need to be okay with that mystery. And just know my body has this reaction. That doesn't necessarily mean that I have hidden trauma that is out of my awareness. It just can mean that my nervous system got dysregulated.

[A]

I totally agree with you. Totally agree. Okay.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Dr. Sean, we're gonna have to bring you back. There is so much still to talk about. And I think what I'm gonna do is I'm gonna do it a two parter. So I'm just gonna hold on to you for a while and we're gonna, we're gonna record that second one. So before I let you go, I want to know from you, what is your number one ADHD work?

[B]

Shame free mindset. Yeah, that's the foundation. If you, you know, with adhd, it's all about expectation management. When you have a shame free understanding of your experience and give yourself permission to be the human that you are, you are already helping to decrease the fight and flight response so you can access your executive function functioning skills more effectively. If you are freaked out, you're under shame, you can't think. Shame is a barrier. So number one thing, we have to get rid of the shame, build shame resilience, have a shame free mindset. Then we lay that foundation for all the seeds we're planting and we can have the produce and the fruitfulness of it that we are hoping for. But you gotta calm that shame and

[A]

rewrite that narrative 100%. I always say that there are some areas of your life where your values, your strengths, talent, skills, superpowers, passion, purpose. There's a sweet spot where they all convene. And if you can do work in that area, you're going to have none, if not very few of the executive functioning deficits that you have in all the other areas. So like, you do work that you love and you're passionate about. About. Because the shame is so much greater when you're doing work and you're like, I suck at this. I can't do this. And people are on your back and like, that's just not a way to live. So I just really appreciate you. I would like you to let us know, where can people find you? Where do they find your book? All of this, please.

[B]

You know William Bill Dodson, who coined the term rsd, he's one of my endorsers and he said this book needs to be for everyone one. And I would agree. I realize we're not, we're not the only ones with these struggles. It's a human struggle, right? So you can get this book, no matter who you are, anywhere. Books are sold anywhere, you know, and go to Amazon, anywhere. Come to my website, Dr. Shawn horn dot com. Join my my email list so you can get courses and things as they roll out, get announcements for talks and so forth. Subscribe to my YouTube, join me on Instagram. I'm everywhere. Dr. Sean Horn. Watch my TED talk, Google TEDx, Spokane, Shawn Horn and all that stuff.

[A]

Shawn, thank you so much for spending time with us here today. We're going to talk about when we can get you back. The minute I am landed in the new place I'm going to be living, at least temporarily. We're going to do part two of this. Thank you again. I really appreciate you.

[B]

You, thank you so much and I appreciate you. Thank you.

[A]

So that's what I have for this week. If you like this episode with Dr. Horn, please. Well, I think she likes to be called Dr. Sean. Please let us know by leaving a review. Our goal is to change the conversation around adhd, helping as many women as we possibly can learn how their ADHD brains work so that they too may discover their amazing story strengths. Thank you so much for listening and I'll see you here next week. You've been listening to the ADHD for Smartass Women podcast. I'm your host, Tracy Otsuka. Join us at adhd for smartwomen.com where you can find more information on my new book, ADHD for Smartass Women and my patented you'd ADHD Brain is a okay system to help you get unstuck and fall in love with your brilliant brain. Let's pause here. Have you spent your whole life being told your way is the wrong way? If you try to use systems designed for a neurotypical brain, of course you'll feel like you're failing. But here's the truth. You were never the problem. You just have a different brain, which means you need different systems. That is exactly why I created the AOK Academy. It's my six step patented framework designed to help you reconnect with your intuition and build systems based on your unique strengths. Let me help you reconnect with your intuition, trust yourself again, and build a life that actually works for you. You've had the answers all along. I'll help you see them. Look, it's time to stop second guessing and start trusting yourself again. Find the link in the show notes to sign up or book a free discovery call. Now let's get back to it.